Buckling spring keycaps: Why do they sometimes just refuse to go on properly?

[RoflCopter4]

I don't know whether I'm completely retarded or if I'm just doing something wrong somehow. I'm trying to put all of the keycaps back onto an old Model F keyboard I have, and for some reason that's a bit of a pain. Often when I put the keycap back on, making sure the spring goes on the right side of the little thingy, I push the cap on and immediately know something is wrong. It doesn't work properly. It's like the spring is on the wrong side or something... but I KNOW I put it on the right side. Usually I can just pop it off and the second time it will work, but some keys just refuse to go on properly even after literally a dozen tries and I just cannot wrap my brain around what in the **** I am doing wrong. Does anyone know?

[rowdy]

I think if you lift the front of the keyboard (where the space bar is) so the springs tilt backwards before you put the keycap back on.

That works for me with a Model M.

[RoflCopter4]

I'll give that a try. Actually I've noticed a bigger problem. Maybe I should make a whole separate thread for it though.

I bought some stabilizer inserts from Unicomp to use with the backspace, shift, etc, which I figured would work ok on a Model F. However, for some reason the keys don't actually come back up when pressed down when I use these inserts. Am I doomed to using the original keys for everything that needs a stabilizer?

[hwood34]

When you're putting the cap on, just try and wiggle the stem around til you can feel the spring in the right place

[MGH]

On my Model F, I would constantly have that issue, but on my Model M, 99% of the time the cap goes on with no trouble. Tilting the keyboard helped a little, but sometimes it still messes up

[RoflCopter4]

Right, so after a lot of angry trial and error I managed to get all of the keys properly on the board, save two. One is the spacebar which I will not be able to get on until I come up with some way to get around the stabilizer problem, and the other is the backspace. I have no idea what the hell is wrong with the backspace, but I suspect that Unicomp ****ed up the key they gave me. I tried putting the numpad 0 key on the backspace position and it worked just fine with the stabilizer inserts I bought, but when I try to put the backspace there it kind of sticks. It doesn't come back up after I press it down. The backspace key also does this in the numpad 0 spot so that rules out the spring being bad. I think Unicomp may actually have given me a bad key, which is annoying.

EDIT: I just took the backspace key from my Model M and tried it in the Model F board and it works just fine. I tried the Unicomp backspace in my Model M and it has the same problem. It just sticks down for some reason. Definitely a bad keycap.

[rowdy]

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=65726.0

That thread discusses the barrel inserts a bit.

Apparently some are centred, and some are off-centre, and is DOES matter which one goes where, and for the off-centre ones which way around they are.

There have been a few pictures of them posted, but I can't find any at the moment ...

Edit: There's a discussion about the inserts (and various types of keycaps) here.

[RoflCopter4]

I don't think my problem is the same as the one in the thread you linked. For him the key that was sticking did not stick in other positions on the board. My backspace key is sticking on not only both of the positions into which it fits on the board but also into both of the positions on a separate Model M board. The Model M's backspace key does not stick. Everything points to the key being the problem, not the insert.

[fohat.digs]

I did have a bad insert once.

But also, pay attention to the rotation, they are not symmetrical. Both types are taller than they are wide, and need to go in that way.

Also, the barrels themselves are loose in the Model F. Try grabbing the empty barrel with your fingers and wiggling it, as if you were trying to loosen a tooth. You might move it ever so slightly in one direction and get the alignment better.

[pr0ximity]

I have a lot of issues with seating keys properly on my Model F. When I first got it and took all the keys off for cleaning I just kept wiggling the barrel and tilting the board and eventually they all worked. Some I definitely had to re-seat around a dozen times to get them clicking.

[RoflCopter4]

I know I have it in the correct way. Like I said, the backspace key off of my Model M fits in perfectly, as does the numpad 0 key. And like I said, the backspace does NOT work on the model M, even the the Mode M's own backspace works fine. I don't know how the problem coud possibly be the insert considering severa other keys fit in the same position just fine. I also know for certain that I do have it in the correct way.

[fohat.digs]

If you are saying that the same Backspace key that worked properly yesterday is not working today, then something has changed.

Is there any possibility that the alignment post on the back of the key got damaged (like, did you step on it, or something)?

If not, I would use my finger, or a gentle tool like a chop stick, and pressure the barrel from the side to pry it just half a millimeter to the right, then try the same way towards the left. That is, either shift its position just a bit or tilt it slightly out of vertical.

Your posts may vary just slightly in center-to-center width from the others.

[RoflCopter4]

I must not be explaining mysef a that well. Let me give the different keycaps nicknames (so I don't have to try to be coherent).

Original Model F Backspace: OriginalBS
The replacement Unicomp backspace I'm trying to use: UnicompBS
The Unicomp Numpad 0 key (also a replacement): UniNum0
My separate Model M Backspace key: MBS

Right. So The OriginalBS obviously works just fine. It has an actual stabilizer bar and there's nothing wrong with it except that it's dirty and stained and I wanted to just replace all the keys because why not. Right now I'm using that OriginalBS.

The UnicompBS is the one that does not work. It sticks in the backspace position on this Model F board, it sticks in the Numpad 0 position on this board, and it even sticks in the backspace position on my totally separate Model M board. The UniNum0 key works perfectly in the numpad 0 place on this board, and it also works perfectly in the backspace positon on this board. I took the MBS from my Model M and tried it in the backspace position on this board and it also works perfectly. The only common denominator is the UnicompBS key. It has not worked in any position I've tried it in even though other keys work just fine in those same positions. I can't see how the problem could be anything other than that keycap.

Incidently, I think something has gone horribly wrong. Every now and then my "L" key is not registering. And then it will start to work again. And then stop. This is probably not a simple diagnosis... hopefully the problem goes away...

[fohat.digs]

The UnicompBS is the one that does not work.

Look at it very carefully to see whether the post (the "peg" that goes into the stabilizer insert) is perfectly straight in every direction.

If it is out of plumb, you may be able to manually tweak/bend/warp/force it a degree or so back towards the center.

You have nothing to lose. It seems clear that it is a defective key.

[rowdy]

The UnicompBS is the one that does not work.

Look at it very carefully to see whether the post (the "peg" that goes into the stabilizer insert) is perfectly straight in every direction.

If it is out of plumb, you may be able to manually tweak/bend/warp/force it a degree or so back towards the center.

You have nothing to lose. It seems clear that it is a defective key.

This - by a process of elimination, the only combinations that don't work involve the UnicompBS, hence this key is defective.

As for L, have you tried removing and reinstalling the keycap?  Might be a fraction out of alignment.  Has the keyboard been bolt-modded?  Maybe that area of the plate and membrane have separated slightly so as to cause occasional lack of functionality.

[dorkvader]

I'll give that a try. Actually I've noticed a bigger problem. Maybe I should make a whole separate thread for it though.

I bought some stabilizer inserts from Unicomp to use with the backspace, shift, etc, which I figured would work ok on a Model F. However, for some reason the keys don't actually come back up when pressed down when I use these inserts. Am I doomed to using the original keys for everything that needs a stabilizer?

usually this means you didn't push it all the way in or you installed a vertical one upside-down. I have also had some trouble with the stock unicomp keycaps on some keyboards.

I usually tip the springs forward when I install keycaps to keep them from catching, though tipping them up as rowdy recommends con be equally effective. I also install keycaps in a specific way though it's hard to explain.

[RoflCopter4]

The UnicompBS is the one that does not work.

Look at it very carefully to see whether the post (the "peg" that goes into the stabilizer insert) is perfectly straight in every direction.

If it is out of plumb, you may be able to manually tweak/bend/warp/force it a degree or so back towards the center.

You have nothing to lose. It seems clear that it is a defective key.

It didn't seem that way when I looked at it earlier but obviously it is possible. I think it's more likely that it's just a fraction too wide at the base of the stem, but I'll double check when I get home.

The UnicompBS is the one that does not work.

Look at it very carefully to see whether the post (the "peg" that goes into the stabilizer insert) is perfectly straight in every direction.

If it is out of plumb, you may be able to manually tweak/bend/warp/force it a degree or so back towards the center.

You have nothing to lose. It seems clear that it is a defective key.

This - by a process of elimination, the only combinations that don't work involve the UnicompBS, hence this key is defective.

As for L, have you tried removing and reinstalling the keycap?  Might be a fraction out of alignment.  Has the keyboard been bolt-modded?  Maybe that area of the plate and membrane have separated slightly so as to cause occasional lack of functionality.

I actually replaced the keycap entirely with one of the freebies Unicomp gave me for some reason. That seems to have helped a bit. No, it is not bolt modded. I didn't think these terminal boards were even held together by bolts at all? If they are then it is possible that's the problem. It has been tossed around enough to have had a piece of the case break off.

[sleepy916]

Sometimes for whatever reason it takes multiple tries to get the key to go on properly. But I found that it happens more frequently on the model Fs than the model Ms. I sometimes like up the front of the keyboard so the springs are more in an upright position, sometimes that does the trick.

It will eventually get on.

[fohat.digs]

I think it's more likely that it's just a fraction too wide at the base of the stem,

If that is the case, just get out your file or Dremel or sandpaper and start grinding until it works.

At least then you will know, and have a spare.

Just be sure that you don't scratch, damage, or soil the inside of the stabilizer cavity with crud.