geekhack
geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: margo baggins on Thu, 13 June 2013, 04:39:51
-
How hard is it to actually learn colemak?
I am a proficient typist, I did it for a job for a while but I have only ever typed on QWERTY. I have a couple of blank sets of caps and I am interested in learning colemak.
What's the best way to learn it and is there any trainers that can assist with it? Like software etc.
I touchtype anywhere from 70-100wpm QWERTY depending on what time of day it is and how many cups of coffee I have had!
-
It took me two months to regain speed I used to have with Qwerty.
I've switched using "cold-turkey" method. The main problem is transition period. There were three weeks, when a couldn't type in Qwerty anymore, and I wasn't proficient enough with Colemak to be productive.
I've used Colemak series lessons included in gtypist.
I've also generated my own lessons, I used this word frequency tables http://ucrel.lancs.ac.uk/bncfreq/flists.html and this script http://pastebin.com/MZ4iQMLh
You can do some experiments with gtypist, maybe create some lessons based on words with similar endings (to learn how to quickly type ing, tion, cly suffixes).
-
Was two finger typing and learned colemak enough to go slow, but bearable, in a week. Used gtypist and ktouch.
Can't say about learning from qwerty.
-
Should be very easy, not a lot of key changes.
Several trainers for win/mac.
You may even want to consider using a modified Colemak or one of the other very similar layouts (I'm an out-of-the-box Colemak user)
-
Check Tarmak (http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=358).
-
Everyone is going to have a different experience switching, I found it takes quite a bit of patience and discipline when it comes not using stickers or looking at the keys.
If I had to do it again I might not switch cold turkey like I did and instead try and practice in the evenings so it didn't disrupt my work flow.
-
Thanks for your input guys.
I am not going to be able to cold turkey switch straight to colemak, it is going to be something I have to practice in the evenings and when I get some downtime at work. I work in IT so I spend all day every day typing. I would ultimately like to one day be able to touch type proficiently in both Colemak and QWERTY.
I have got a couple of type trainers - I am going to butcher some stock caps and turn them into a Colemak and dedicate one of my boards to the task of learning this layout!
-
Thanks for your input guys.
I am not going to be able to cold turkey switch straight to colemak, it is going to be something I have to practice in the evenings and when I get some downtime at work. I work in IT so I spend all day every day typing. I would ultimately like to one day be able to touch type proficiently in both Colemak and QWERTY.
I have got a couple of type trainers - I am going to butcher some stock caps and turn them into a Colemak and dedicate one of my boards to the task of learning this layout!
"Input"? As in "Input Nirvana?" Yea!!!! I love myself way too much.
Question: Why is it you want a different layout than the stupid antiquated qwerty?
And why have you chosen Colemak?
-
Thanks for your input guys.
I am not going to be able to cold turkey switch straight to colemak, it is going to be something I have to practice in the evenings and when I get some downtime at work. I work in IT so I spend all day every day typing. I would ultimately like to one day be able to touch type proficiently in both Colemak and QWERTY.
I have got a couple of type trainers - I am going to butcher some stock caps and turn them into a Colemak and dedicate one of my boards to the task of learning this layout!
"Input"? As in "Input Nirvana?" Yea!!!! I love myself way too much.
Question: Why is it you want a different layout than the stupid antiquated qwerty?
And why have you chosen Colemak?
Yeha buddy that's right - YOU! :D
I don't know really, I can touch type qwerty - reading all the stuff about Colemak makes me think I would be able to type faster on that once I have learnt it. Plus I rarely challenge myself out of work and I think this could a be a good thing to set some time to and challenge myself with. So just for a change really :)
-
I don't know that it has been shown conclusively that you will type faster, though it seems you could. But it will definitely be easier.
You may want to consider the couple "modified" Colemaks, Workman, or one of the QGMLWB variants....I'm taking a second look at these in the near future.
-
I tried to switch cold turkey style, and that didn't work. I type something every day, and I just don't have time to be a less efficient typer. It slows down efficiency. Although, if you're not in a phase where you're doing something critical, then you'll learn much faster if you switch cold turkey. Switching back and forth between QWERTY and colmak each day slows down the transition.
-
I'll step on a limb and dare to suggest that it makes the most sense to switch as rapidly as you can. If you can't have the reduced speed due to work constraints, then thats the limiting factor. The issue I've mostly heard is that learning part of the layout becomes confusing, but I wouldn't know. I went cold turkey, and FWIW, it was easy and natural. I made a keyboard and layout change at the same time.
Bottom line, do what you can. If it's a priority you'll make the time and use a typing tutor for 2 half hour sessions every night, maybe double on the weekend, and commit to typing the new layout on your personal time. Couple weeks and we won't be having this discussion.
If Colemak was sex, I would have used is when I was 14 with the nanny.
-
I don't know really, I can touch type qwerty - reading all the stuff about Colemak makes me think I would be able to type faster on that once I have learnt it.
I'll be interested to hear how this goes for you. I type mostly
in dvorak, but my qwerty skills are still there (after a few seconds
of cursing and typing gibberish) if I need them.
I seem to type at exactly the same speed on a regular
keyboard in either dvorak or qwerty, but the dvorak feels
better. I also type at that same speed on my datahands...
Seems that the speed limit is upstairs.
Let us know if you end up typing faster!
-
I don't know really, I can touch type qwerty - reading all the stuff about Colemak makes me think I would be able to type faster on that once I have learnt it.
I'll be interested to hear how this goes for you. I type mostly
in dvorak, but my qwerty skills are still there (after a few seconds
of cursing and typing gibberish) if I need them.
I seem to type at exactly the same speed on a regular
keyboard in either dvorak or qwerty, but the dvorak feels
better. I also type at that same speed on my datahands...
Seems that the speed limit is upstairs.
Let us know if you end up typing faster!
I think some people obviously can type somewhat faster on different layouts, nothing too dramatic I don't think. In all these years I'm not recalling anyone claiming a real measurable significant gain. It's almost universally a comfort or RSI thingy or just plain easier. Interestingly, Webwit on Deskthority and I were using Colemak on our Datahands, and I believe Hoggy is using Dvorak on his. On a Datahand it should be virtually meaningless! HAHAHAHA
-
OK, I'm noticeably faster on Colemak than I used to be on Czech QWERTZ. I could touch type on the old layout in 2005-2011, my speed slowly progressed until it stopped at ~55 wpm. I felt like my fingers were all over the keyboard—that was one of the reasons why I switched. After less than two years with Colemak, I can reach 70+ wpm and usually type at ~60 wpm (e.g. 5-minute test at hi-games.net). It could be more if I focused on accuracy.
The problem is that I might be typing faster only because of practice, in theory. I don't have sufficient data to prove/refute that.
-
I am not terribly busy today so I am Colemak all day.
I find E to be quite a problematic key at the moment. I keep forgetting this has moved to the other hand. Likewise with P.
Apart from that I just type damn slow! maybe 15 - 20 wpm.
-
well for me, i keep getting mixed up with i and o and also my hands seem to shift to right while I am doing lesson 4 i.e lesson for d and h. =.=
-
OK, I'm noticeably faster on Colemak than I used to be on Czech QWERTZ. I could touch type on the old layout in 2005-2011, my speed slowly progressed until it stopped at ~55 wpm. I felt like my fingers were all over the keyboard—that was one of the reasons why I switched. After less than two years with Colemak, I can reach 70+ wpm and usually type at ~60 wpm (e.g. 5-minute test at hi-games.net). It could be more if I focused on accuracy.
The problem is that I might be typing faster only because of practice, in theory. I don't have sufficient data to prove/refute that.
That's mostly what I have read. More comfortable and seems faster because it's easier (hands not all over the place) and a little improvement. In your case a solid +5wpm/10% (higher if you consider the 70wpm). Still a gain no matter how you look at it.
-
I have trouble with accuracy in typing tests. If I solve that, it's basically around 20 %.
-
I have trouble with accuracy in typing tests. If I solve that, it's basically around 20 %.
LOL hahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha
That was a good one!
-
I used KTouch, Amphetype and typeracer.com. I also printed the layout and kept that near my monitor for at least a couple weeks.
KTouch is layout-aware, so its good at starting you off with the right letter combinations. You don't want a tutor that starts you off with F & J.
Here are some good recommendations: http://colemak.com/wiki/index.php?title=Learn
-
I went cold turkey when I switched to colemak and i had a "usable" speed within a few days, but took about 6 weeks to get a decent speed. After that, it took a few more months to work out all the kinks (occasional confusion with certain letters).
It's great to switch though; much less effort to type than QWERTY.
-
<gonna post this in another similar thread>
http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1525
This link was sent to me by DreymaR even though I participated in it, but couldn't remember where it was.
It covers the ideas behind various metrics used in determining layouts and some pros/cons. It touches on some concepts. From what I remember it may beat a dead horse and, but should say a lot of what is going on in these couple threads. I post because I think it's relevant in the idea of changing layouts and why.
-
I've been trying to switch to Colemak, but end up getting really frustrated lol. Been using sense-lang. When I have a day off I might dedicate the whole day just to learn Colemak.
-
When I have a day off I might dedicate the whole day just to learn Colemak.
Amazing idea. /sarcasm
-
When I have a day off I might dedicate the whole day just to learn Colemak.
Amazing idea. /sarcasm
Well maybe not the whole day, but when I have a good amount of time I will learn Colemak.
-
I think what davkol is trying to say is that the total amount of time isn't that important. What's important is that you do it regularly, so 30-60 mins every day for 2 months should get you to quite a usable speed. But training more than 1 hour at once won't give you any real benefits.
-
I think what davkol is trying to say is that the total amount of time isn't that important. What's important is that you do it regularly, so 30-60 mins every day for 2 months should get you to quite a usable speed. But training more than 1 hour at once won't give you any real benefits.
I'm not sure that's exactly true. I did it cold turkey and I know for a fact that by using it all day with a typtrainer here and there I was effectively a "Colemakian" within 10-14 days. Then came the being comfortable, reduction in mistakes, and some proficiency (speed).
-
I think what davkol is trying to say is that the total amount of time isn't that important. What's important is that you do it regularly, so 30-60 mins every day for 2 months should get you to quite a usable speed. But training more than 1 hour at once won't give you any real benefits.
I'm not sure that's exactly true. I did it cold turkey and I know for a fact that by using it all day with a typtrainer here and there I was effectively a "Colemakian" within 10-14 days. Then came the being comfortable, reduction in mistakes, and some proficiency (speed).
In my experiences, you get diminishing returns after long training sessions. I can train for hours and get the same results as training for 30 minutes and then giving my brain a night's sleep before going at it again.
-
I think what davkol is trying to say is that the total amount of time isn't that important. What's important is that you do it regularly, so 30-60 mins every day for 2 months should get you to quite a usable speed. But training more than 1 hour at once won't give you any real benefits.
I'm not sure that's exactly true. I did it cold turkey and I know for a fact that by using it all day with a typtrainer here and there I was effectively a "Colemakian" within 10-14 days. Then came the being comfortable, reduction in mistakes, and some proficiency (speed).
In my experiences, you get diminishing returns after long training sessions. I can train for hours and get the same results as training for 30 minutes and then giving my brain a night's sleep before going at it again.
well many support the claim that 30-50 minutes of learning and 20 minutes break help with remembering more. I am however hardcore and doing the cold turkey method and it is quite frustrating...hopefully i get better at this...
-
We're all different with different skills/aptitudes/tolerances and circumstances. It wasn't frustrating or a chore for me, but would have been had I bounced around back and forth. It's not like all the keys change. But you guys maybe 80wpm typists too, so you're slowing waaaay down. Me, not so much, I'm prolly half that at best. I don't type massive walls of text (except for posts on GH)
-
I don't really much like the idea of cold turkey on the grounds I quite need to touch type at work, I am often doing other things or looking at other stuff so I don't really like looking at the keyboard all that often. I also have 5 screens on my desk at work, so the keyboard is only sitting beneath one of them, looking at it all the time isn't practical!
So I have been doing this every day for a while and I can touch type all the letters on the home row fairly well ~40wpm with 97% accuracy, but that's only with 10 keys! I think that translates to lesson 4 on the Colemak lessons on type faster. Hasn't seemed to affect my QWERTY typing at all. I have to think very hard though when I am typing in Colemak, and normally after I have done 30 - 40 minutes typing Colemak I then do a blast speed test on QWERTY and then one more on Colemak.
I think I am learning it very slowly vs. people who went cold turkey.
One interesting thing is it is playing havoc with my Dyslexia. I am not very good at writing with a pen and paper and my spelling really deteriorates when I am not typing, and I think it's something to do with remembering the patterns for spelling words rather than relying on being able to spell them. Obviously with a new layout - these patterns all change. So while it's fine when I am using a trainer as I can just type what I see, when I want to type free style in Colemak, I am finding I can't spell that well. I am hoping this comes with time.
-
I went cold turkey and went from 13-20 wpm to 40-50 wpm within a couple of days. I love Colemak now. It is so much easier on the hands and memorization than QWERTY or Dvorak. I type so much more than I used to and can even efficiently type in League of Legends.
It is a bit of a pain fixing settings on FPS games lol, but really learn it and you will feel the reward.
-
I use TypeFaster to learn Colemak, then I use Amphetype, Typing Tutor 7 to drill. For fun I play Typing of the Dead and joined Typeracer.
After 60 days I regain my Qwerty speed.
Now I exceed my Qwerty speed by 10wpm, mostly because of a Filco mechanical keyboard I am using.
-
I use TypeFaster to learn Colemak, then I use Amphetype, Typing Tutor 7 to drill. For fun I play Typing of the Dead and joined Typeracer.
After 60 days I regain my Qwerty speed.
Now I exceed my Qwerty speed by 10wpm, mostly because of a Filco mechanical keyboard I am using.
TypeFaster really helps, but keybr does a good job of learning each row with Colemak. The QWERTY lessons are smeh.
-
Apart from Colemak and Dvorak, there are several other alternatives such as Workman and Minimak which is also good alternative to Qwerty.
I hope that Windows version in the future will have an option to install the layout user wants.
-
So I am several weeks in on Colemak. Went cold turkey and I am almost up to my original speed. The biggest problem with cold turkey is that it is now more difficult to type with QWERTY. Also, the period when you suck at both annoying.
-
I think I am learning it very slowly vs. people who went cold turkey.
There are a lot of experiences posted at the colemak website.
Mine is:
I tried cold turkey but I finished the first day typing in qwerty because I couldn't work that way, I typed so slowly and inneficient.
I thought it was in some way for crazy people, why on the earth I will be going to type in a different layout everybody use ? well, statistics don't lie and in the paper colemak seems superior to qwerty, also I have always been sick while finding special i18n characters I need for my native language.
So I do decided to practive colemak for about 1 hour in my free time almost every day.
I used ktouch with a new set of lectures I created for the spanish language with all the syllables that are most common and repeated at the same frecuency as they appear beginning with just a few then expanding to the whole keyboard.
I did it for about two months when I began to fell that i tend to confuse colemak with qwerty and that was the point of no return.
I switched to Colemak and I began to type nicer.
Then I face the problem when i have to work on another person computer who didn't have the colemak layout installed and that was so painful to go back to qwerty; I realize I will find this problem over and over again so I began to find a programmable keyboard that's when I found the GH website, then the story becomes larger. Now I type on the key64 keyboard and is colemak and qwerty switchable, you can find a video of me touch typing at the key64 using ktouch at http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43544.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43544.0).
-
I think I am learning it very slowly vs. people who went cold turkey.
There are a lot of experiences posted at the colemak website.
Mine is:
I tried cold turkey but I finished the first day typing in qwerty because I couldn't work that way, I typed so slowly and inneficient.
I thought it was in some way for crazy people, why on the earth I will be going to type in a different layout everybody use ? well, statistics don't lie and in the paper colemak seems superior to qwerty, also I have always been sick while finding special i18n characters I need for my native language.
So I do decided to practive colemak for about 1 hour in my free time almost every day.
I used ktouch with a new set of lectures I created for the spanish language with all the syllables that are most common and repeated at the same frecuency as they appear beginning with just a few then expanding to the whole keyboard.
I did it for about two months when I began to fell that i tend to confuse colemak with qwerty and that was the point of no return.
I switched to Colemak and I began to type nicer.
Then I face the problem when i have to work on another person computer who didn't have the colemak layout installed and that was so painful to go back to qwerty; I realize I will find this problem over and over again so I began to find a programmable keyboard that's when I found the GH website, then the story becomes larger. Now I type on the key64 keyboard and is colemak and qwerty switchable, you can find a video of me touch typing at the key64 using ktouch at http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43544.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43544.0).
Basically, what you read here...this is a truism....there is hassle and pain to switch for many people, but a reward for doing so rests in the longer term benefit. Plain and simple. It was easier for me, but I took it seriously and prioritized it. No problem. Converting anything is a problem, just moving forward and not looking back is the key.
Thanks for spelling it out.
-
Good news: Colemak keyboard has been available for iPhone/iPad jailbreaked ver 5 or 6. Now you can hunt and peck in Colemak as well as touch type :-)
In Cydia do a search with Colemak keyboard and you will get one.
http://moreinfo.thebigboss.org/moreinfo/depiction.php?file=iamhariccolemakkeyboardDp
-
I just said screw it and I'm struggling to type this right now on cold turkey Colemak. I think it's giving me a headache.
that took me 4 minutes to type
-
I just said screw it and I'm struggling to type this right now on cold turkey Colemak. I think it's giving me a headache.
that took me 4 minutes to type
Make sure you have a printed page of the layout in front of you for the first week you use it.
-
I just said screw it and I'm struggling to type this right now on cold turkey Colemak. I think it's giving me a headache.
that took me 4 minutes to type
Switching cold turkey is too tough. I learned Colemak with TypeFaster software, 2 keys and at time and I found it very tough already.
Luckily, Colemak only have 17 keys to memorize, so you can remember them in 2 days. Then you have to practise a lot to build muscle memory.
-
Don't forget to type with QWERTY from time to time. I totally forgot how to type on it and I struggle when I use other people's computers/laptops. I switch cold turkey lol.
-
Don't forget to type with QWERTY from time to time. I totally forgot how to type on it and I struggle when I use other people's computers/laptops. I switch cold turkey lol.
You don't have to struggle. Just run this program, and you can type Colemak right away
http://www.ryanheise.com/colemak.exe
-
Don't forget to type with QWERTY from time to time. I totally forgot how to type on it and I struggle when I use other people's computers/laptops. I switch cold turkey lol.
There is no need to struggle :-)
We are keyboard fanatics, there is nothing unusual in "Bring You Own Keyboard" computing :-D
Hint: with a little tinkering Your custom 60% board's controller can be reprogrammed to do Colemak layout in firmware.
-
Guys,
Any clue if it would be possible for Windows (Se7en, yeah WinEight is ****) to bind different layout to keyboards?
I mean, since i have multiple keyboards connected to my machine, i would use one in Colemak layout while using another one on basic French Canadian Qwerty (yeah, French Canadians do not use Azerty, no worry).
I know i can always use the Alt+Shift shortcut but that's just so ****ing retarded, i believe Windows should be able to bind different layout to different hardware... i mean since it supports multiple keyboards, they must have taught of that beforehand right? Or simply they are dumb that wouldn't be a first one with Microsoft...
That would be optimal to learn Colemak. I actually believe it's the most optimal layout for coding, therefor i would like to learn it as soon & as fast as possible. Plus it's so underground, such hipsterness...
-
Don't forget to type with QWERTY from time to time. I totally forgot how to type on it and I struggle when I use other people's computers/laptops. I switch cold turkey lol.
There is no need to struggle :-)
We are keyboard fanatics, there is nothing unusual in "Bring You Own Keyboard" computing :-D
Hint: with a little tinkering Your custom 60% board's controller can be reprogrammed to do Colemak layout in firmware.
That would be awesome. It was just annoying to search up a video on my friend's laptop one time because I couldn't use QWERTY anymore. I downloaded stuff from colemak.com for to be able to use the layout. Fixing it to Win+space to switch between QWERTY and Colemak is nifty when my girlfriend needs to use the computer. I am just saying that anytime I have to use someone else's system without my board around, it is tough to use QWERTY now XD
-
Hi, this post is some kind of off-topic , but I think those who switched to colemak don't suffer from the "no need to stimulate the brain" illness.
Today by casuality I found this webpage http://blog.thesilentnumber.me/2008/02/top-7-reasons-to-learn-lojban.html that say why you have to learn a language like lojban, off course it will not have any practical use for now, but it seems to be an interesting language to learn just for fun: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Lojban
Have anybody heard about that ? any experiences typing it :) ?
-
Hi, this post is some kind of off-topic , but I think those who switched to colemak don't suffer from the "no need to stimulate the brain" illness.
Today by casuality I found this webpage http://blog.thesilentnumber.me/2008/02/top-7-reasons-to-learn-lojban.html that say why you have to learn a language like lojban, off course it will not have any practical use for now, but it seems to be an interesting language to learn just for fun: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/Lojban
Have anybody heard about that ? any experiences typing it :) ?
Thanks for post/link. Took brief look, am bookmarking to review later.
-
A bit different from what you've experienced, I also started with QWERTY and went about 80-90, but it was inconsistent, jumping from seventies to around a hundred. Instead of Colemak, however, I learned Dvorak, which apparently is supposed to take longer to transition from QWERTY than Colemak given that there was no effort to correlate them at all, and nearly all of the symbols are in different places.
It took me about a month, practicing from 45-75 minutes pretty much daily, to become equally proficient. By five months, I was pushing upper-110 and after a broken-laptop break of about two months, at eight months (six really) I'm at mid-120's top and mid-110 normally. I mostly went cold turkey straight conversion, made easier by the fact that I'm not of age to hold a job, and I would go back to QWERTY for intensive tasks but after a three weeks or so I couldn't really use either, it took me until I was proficient at Dvorak to have a usable format.
If you learn these sorts of things quickly and you practice regularly (even more importantly than for a long time) you should be able to get back to your old speed in two months or less.
Best of luck, and don't give up!
-
Thanks for post/link. Took brief look, am bookmarking to review later.
I was searching for a language like this to learn for years, I am very excited now that I have found it !! I didn't know such thing exist, I though Esperanto was the only alternative when I realize I was searching at the wrong place; English is my second language because of work and communication with the outside world but as with Spanish (my tongue language) have a lot of exceptions and ambiguities which make it difficult to learn and take years to master which I didn't yet.
I printed the 'What is lojban' level0 manual and hope to read it next week. I will tell you how things evolve.