TrulyErgonomic vs Kinesis Advantage Pro

[nesiax]

I'm reminded of why I don't frequent these forums.

I doubt it and i am sure you do and you follow this thread every post, since this is probably the best ranked forum about keyboards at search engines you used it to publish all your bull$hit on a thread you started and later closed it in order to prevent other people to publish their comments and assure people just had your biased opinion and marketing propaganda; fortunatelly for us (unfortunatelly for you) iMav decided to reopen it and this thread still follows and not only we have this thread, we have other ones about people with compliants against truly ergonomic :

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=15740
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=16715

[milh_cbt]

so, should I ask for refund? it worth $200 for me including shipping to Indonesia.

[nesiax]

Well, i agree with Neo, when he says:

"I am guessing they will continue to honor refunds as long as new orders outnumber refund requests."

So for me and for others that is just a Ponzi scheme adapted to sales of imaginary products throught the Internet.

In other words: the more time it takes to ask for your money, the more chances you will have of losing it.

[Tracer]

This thread is really depressing. I really do hope this keyboard is real. As it's the closest thing I've seen to my perfect ideal of a keyboard. However, as I stated in another thread, I wasn't willing to have $200 sitting around in a companies bank account when they don't properly communicate with their customers.

If TE is not a scam, than it's a really small start up. If so, they should present themselves as such. Along with regular, "real" blog posts on progress and their challenges. At a minimum this should be weekly communication. Hell even a "Sorry, no updates this week". It's as if they're afraid to show that they are not a large company. Their website is full of "As Seen on TV" style "posts" with little to no substance. The only credible thing on there is their photos of an early prototype that is almost two years old now.

[nesiax]

I remember the terminator 3 movie, when skynet says:

"In times of desperation, people will believe what they want to believe. And so we gave them what they wanted to believe."

So we are still stick with such a crap of keyboards available on the market and we wanted a better one because we deserve something better and so they give us a nice 3d rendered imaginary keyboard we like to test and put our hands on it.

People who pre-ordered the Truly ergonomic keyboard with the discount are in doubt to ask for a refund because they will lose the discount expecting they will have done a good bussines when the keyboard will be finally shipped instead of buying it later, but that probably never happen.

For those who have asked for a refund they have offered also U$ 50 bonus so they want to maintain the user base for an extended time period and they can sell more keyboards before the pyramid comes down and when that happens there will be no trulyergonomic.com website the company goes bankrupt ( we don't even know if they are real ) and since transactions have been done months ago there will be no posibility to fill a claim on the credit card company or paypal and your money is gone, that's the bootom line .... is gone...

But not everything is so bad because the truly ergonomic owners will be at the caribbean islands wasting your money at their leisure

[Input Nirvana]

The only perks I see for "pre-ordering" is:

1) a discount off the retail price
2) if they don't continue manufacturing, that you will actually get one of these few keyboards

The question remains..(considering the track record issues) is it worth the chance of losing the investment for either of these 2 "perks"?

For me the answer is no. It would seem there are GH people that can make the board. I don't seem to understand why the board seems to be so appealing. (It IS appealing, but it's not all THAT). Unfortunately the odds of success for a small start up is small

It's a tough world out there.

[sordna]

I agree with you. It's sort of a flatter kinesis. It would be REALLY appealing if the TE was split (with separated, movable halves). All the split/separated keyboards in the market have staggered keys, even the kinesis freestyle unfortunately. And there's already several non-staggered fixed configuration keyboards (Kinesis Advantage, Typematrix, Datadesk Smartboard, etc).
If you hear or know of a non-staggered keyboard in movable halves let me know!
For now, my next purchase is a Kinesis Advantage with MX Reds, it's truly ergonomic (pun intended) and best of all the company definitely exists !

[Input Nirvana]

This uber-expensive baby, Utron, is the closest: switch, movable halves,  is not matrix-style, but is staggered in the correct directions...

[sordna]

Yup, I wouldn't mind symmetrical staggering actually :-) Does anyone sell the μTron in the US ?

[HaaTa]

[Un]fortunately, no...

[Input Nirvana]

No, plus it's about $550 USD...this is one reason several of us are cutting the Contoured in half

I wouldn't mind incorporating a couple of the switches towards the "center" of the 2 halves like the Utron....

[sordna]

I wouldn't mind incorporating a couple of the switches towards the "center" of the 2 halves like the Utron....

Well, I would like my shifts in the middle, but I use the simple Kinesis footswitch instead (using it as a shift to relieve my pinkies), plus I moved the tab to the delete button (left thumb). A friend lent me his Maltron for a week, and I really liked that feature. I'm in bash/vim/alpine all day and use tab like a madman.

Hmm, about this for a mod: mounting a couple extra cherry switches next to the 5 and 6 button, or north of the control keys on the flat area of the Kinesis Advantage?

[Input Nirvana]

I sort of experimented with just laying key caps in areas to see where it might make sense to add/move keys to on the Kinesis Contoured. I have several pics in my mod page of a few of them. Their placement needs to be non-visual in order to use (that's MY requirement).

The Utron and Typematrix are good examples of this.

[greywidget]

Hi all,

So, I also pre-ordered one of the TE keyboards ( Wasn't that a triumph of optimism over experience ) and happened upon this board as I was pondering my foolhardiness.

In honesty I ALMOST ordered two ( the likelihood of someone doing this has been discussed earlier in the post ) and my reasons for ALMOST doing so were purely down to the fact that I hate waiting for stuff.

In the end though, I just felt too nervous about the whole thing and I decided not to order.

But that wasn't the end of it. Some time later I got a bit giddy again and actually did place an order ( though only for one ) I missed the initial bunch, so my order was supposed to be processed as the second batch originally estimated at Mid March I think it was.

So, I still have my order in, but I have been offered no discount as I wasn't amongst the first batch of orders.

I have emailed TE about 3 times and I have always received a fairly lengthy and polite reply, the last time was about 2 weeks ago after I first stumbled upon this post. I received a reply almost identical in wording to the previous post by Architect.

I have to agree with everyone that there is definately something weird about this company but I can't bring myself to cancel the order just yet.

At £154.49 GBP I'd be pretty annoyed to finally find out I had been scammed.

I wonder when we will finally know for sure...

[sordna]

Can you ask TE for a phone number, and actually talk to a live person and ask when/if these things are coming?
In the mean time, I found this very interesting home-made keyboard photo, it kind of reminds me of the TE:

[Forsaken]

It may be that he wants to get enough money to cover the tooling cost plus a profit margin before sending in the order. Maybe he either doesn't have the money to place the order and can't pull a loan to do it, or simply doesn't want to assume any risk of not coming out in the positive.

He's gonna have to grow a pair soon though and put the order in, else everyone is going to be demanding their money back, through legal action if need be....

[Multiple]

For 2900 RMB ~440 USD one could place an order on taobao:

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=7972129543&ad_id=&am_id=&cm_id=&pm_id=

I do not have to pay to experience the unattainable though.

[nesiax]

There is a nice thread talking about the truly ergonomic delay, and according to facebook, this seems to be the guy:



http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001242000979

and here is the GH thread:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=16814

he had patented the TE design:

http://www.patentgenius.com/inventedby/BuhlerAlfredoVancouverBCCA.html

So, that's make thind this guy was planning to make his keyboard someday, BUT i also think he lacks the whole manufacturing experience, so one thing is to imagine it and another one is to actually end up making it real.

[Input Nirvana]

I woke up to the sound of thunder, but it's actually the sound of everyone typing and sending TE emails requesting refunds....

[rantenki]

I woke up to the sound of thunder, but it's actually the sound of everyone typing and sending TE emails requesting refunds....

Yeah, those model Ms are definitely going to wear out their joints

[Architect]

I doubt it and i am sure you do and you follow this thread every post, since this is probably the best ranked forum about keyboards at search engines you used it to publish all your bull$hit on a thread you started and later closed it in order to prevent other people to publish their comments and assure people just had your biased opinion and marketing propaganda; fortunatelly for us (unfortunatelly for you) iMav decided to reopen it and this thread still follows and not only we have this thread, we have other ones about people with compliants against truly ergonomic :

Genius! Really, you guys have figured out the truth, I AM working for TrulyErgonomic, and I had the idea to create this thread because it would get to the top of Google search! I AM SLUGWORTH!!

Evil Agent of Ergonomic Death

Now since you guys know the truth - and obviously you're not all Willi Wonka - you know that makes you Oompa Loompas?

Pathetic

[iMav]

Architect, you have ordered two TE keyboards.  Do you have ANY concerns about receiving the keyboards?  If you have no affiliation with the company, why are you such an adamant supporter of them?  (especially considering they have your money and have continued to push back delivery)

[Input Nirvana]

I have almost zero interest in the TE board, therefore little interest or concern about the issues regarding its delivery. But I admit, Architects' posts just seem a fraction odd or off base...something isn't quite right with the position Architect has taken and defends. Don't know why or what exactly (and fortunately, since I spent no money, I don't care). Architect didn't answer my questions to him satisfactorily about a keyboard comparison...that's somewhat suspect.

Could it be...Architect=Alfredo Buhler??? Could it be that Alfredo Sauce has an ego that created an alter ego (Architect) to do his henchman, behind-the-scenes defense/reinforcement on one of the most prolific and read keyboard forums on the planet? Could Alfredo not even be a mammal, but a SCAM-posite creation of several egomaniac keyboard wannabe creators? Will the Sun crash into the Earth and end life as we know it???

Tune in to the next exciting series of posts to find out...........

[Oqsy]

I'm torn here. If I had money in this (I do not), I would like to know the name of the company, location, etc for a bit of peace of mind that my pre-order is actually funding a real product.

On the other hand, I see ripster's point. (yes, rippy, you're getting through to me no matter how hard I fight it).

I have a bit of a split personality on GH; wavering between trying to give ppl the benefit of the doubt, being a "gentleman", etc. and feeling the strong urge to be blunt and ruthless with people I think are dishonest and out to cause trouble for the rest of us.

In this case it's a tossup.  Fake keyboard *appears* fake, fake Architect *appears* even more fake, but where is the line between preventing a scam and harassing / slandering a not-so-competent startup?  

Tonight I teeter on the fence, ready to attack, but weary of misjudging the prey.

[noctua]

Clever business model, TE works with the money of their "customer's" -
in the meantime they get interest and other similar income - if anyone
resist on a refund they can do this easy..

[iMav]

Maybe the OP thinks it might be a good keyboard when it ships.

Something to think about.

Personally, I find the stalking posts about the developer creepy and not exactly representative of a healthy community.

I think it might be a decent keyboard if/when it ships...that's why I pre-ordered one last year.  But the longer this drags out, the more skeptical I become.  And when Architect becomes defensive when others are skeptical about Truly Ergonomic, that is, at the very least, a bit curious.

My favorite all time keyboard is the HHKB Pro 2.  If they released and made available to the US a HHKB Pro 3 and several people preordered one, I'd be sympathetic to their anger if the shipment was delayed several times.  I certainly would not defend PFU...

He also is a long time Kinesis user who is ready to abandon their products over a rendered picture.  That is also curious.

Architect, I don't believe you are secretly the man behind TE.  But I'm having trouble understanding your strong defense of a company that has been sitting on the money of a lot of members here, has engaged in (at the very least) some questionable marketing, and can't even provide a real picture of a keyboard that was suppose to ship months ago.

Those of us that have money at stake have every right to hold TE's feet to the fire.  As someone who has preordered two of these 'boards, why do you take skepticism of this third party personally??

[greywidget]

Well, I have to say that I'm becoming less and less optimistic about a happy outcome here...

One thing I don't understand, forgive my ignorance, is this:

Normally if someone is scamming or doing something unlawful, don't they normally try to do it fast then cut and run?

If the TE folks are truly dishonest, don't they risk discovery and serious repercussions the longer they extend this venture?

The facebook page didn't work for me, but the patents do make me think that there is more to this than someone just trying a scam. I suppose that makes me tend towards this being someone with good intentions but perhaps struggling with the manufacturing or business aspects.

Whatever the truth, I'm feeling increasingly worried for my investment...

[Lanx]

Could it be...Architect=Alfredo Buhler??? Could it be that Alfredo Sauce has an ego that created an alter ego (Architect) to do his henchman, behind-the-scenes defense/reinforcement on one of the most prolific and read keyboard forums on the planet?

That alfredo guy does have 1 architectural patent among all the TE patents or applications, whatever.

[Jim66]

That alfredo guy does have 1 architectural patent among all the TE patents or applications, whatever.

Its for a chocolate factory; which I guess explains a few things...

Do you know where I can get Oompa Loompas?

Lulz.

[nesiax]

Clever business model, TE works with the money of their "customer's" -
in the meantime they get interest and other similar income - if anyone
resist on a refund they can do this easy..

Hi noctua, i saw on your signature you made your own keyboard, i have to agree this is the closest real thing i have found to the TE. hahaha

*** Image removed ***

Nice work, one question : did you make a qwerty to colemak filter ? like the qido usb filter ?

[Architect]

Maybe the OP thinks it might be a good keyboard when it ships.

Something to think about.

Personally, I find the stalking posts about the developer creepy and not exactly representative of a healthy community.

Thanks ripster, I appreciate that. Really folks, get a life.

iMav - I posted here recently about this, perhaps you missed it. I wrote TE saying that my patience was wearing thin and I put up their reply. Pretty much the same story "we're experiencing technical difficulties ..."

I would have bailed out long ago if I didn't want this keyboard so bad, it's exactly the design I've been wanting for a long time. I'm a software developer with a long history of RMI issues. I have two Kinesis AP's, which have the lovely property that after waking my computer are schizophrenic. Plus they don't have enough modifier keys (I need symmetrical Command-Option-Control.

Anyhow, I figure the $ from my order is hopefully helping them finish this thing (and it's a tax write-off, so my actual cost for two keyboards (with discount) is about $160 - OK conspiracy freaks?) But as I say I'm getting weary of the lack of communication, wait and lack of visible progress.

[Tracer]

Anyhow, I figure the $ from my order is hopefully helping them finish this thing (and it's a tax write-off, so my actual cost for two keyboards (with discount) is about $160 - OK conspiracy freaks?) But as I say I'm getting weary of the lack of communication, wait and lack of visible progress.

Building a business on peoples pre-order money is wrong though. That's what banks and business plans are for.

I got my refund, because any discount is not worth having my money locked up somewhere that isn't making me money.

I've recently had an about face on the TE marketing strategy. I was originally thinking that their lack of honest communication to the geek community (hey, we're having production problems, sorry) was wrong. But I can see that a lot of what they feel is their target market may be office and business people. In that case the way they've structured their site and the way they're controlling their communication makes a bit more sense.

I still don't like any of it. I'm happy to pay more for a finished product. I agree with what a lot of people have said, taking pre-orders before having a finished prototype of the FINAL product is probably the source of all these delays. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't ship until at least October (the month I made my pre-porder).

[noctua]

Hi noctua, i saw on your signature you made your own keyboard, i have to agree this is the closest real thing i have found to the TE. hahaha



Nice work, one question : did you make a qwerty to colemak filter ? like the qido usb filter ?

Don't use my album pictures here, thanks!

The key codes of the colemak scheme are progammed into the Teensy++
controller, all other special characters are handled by the OS self.

The idea of the "curve" staggered key positions is not new and definitely
not from TE self, the japanes boy's was first with such an layout, later
Maltron has also used this design.. i can't understand which part from
the imaginary TE keyboard requires an patent..

PS: as from today my album no longer exists.

[nesiax]

Sorry, it wasn't my intention to violate your intellectual property, i found your picture trying to find some posts of you related to the tensy++ usb controller which i am interested.

[noctua]

Sorry, it wasn't my intention to violate your intellectual property, i found your picture trying to find some posts of you related to the tensy++ usb controller which i am interested.

The industry self has rarely intellectual idea's, the most ideas comes from
such people as you or me or from the "scene" like GH or something related.
And patents - this "structure" is similar to piratical company model's..

[Input Nirvana]

Maybe the OP thinks it might be a good keyboard when it ships.

Something to think about.

Personally, I find the stalking posts about the developer creepy and not exactly representative of a healthy community.

Of course the OP may think it's a great keyboard when and if it ships. That wasn't the focus of my tongue-and-cheek post. Probably not too healthy for an online community to be a group of stalkers that can later be referenced by the FBI and Interpol. But, people get angry and frustrated when they feel slighted (scammed). Perfectly normal.

Also, scams come in many forms...fast/cut/run, long/in depth/Madoff...etc. Some don't start out as a scam, but as people go through failure, they become desperate.

SUGGESTION: Subforum for Stalkers

DISCLAIMER: I'm not Alfredo Sauce, I don't work for TE (if anyone actually does), I didn't pre-order, so...input nirvana OUT.

BACK TO 'REAL" KEYBOARDS!

[Input Nirvana]

The industry self has rarely intellectual idea's, the most ideas comes from
such people as you or me or from the "scene" like GH or something related.
And patents - this "structure" is similar to piratical company model's..

This has a lot of truth. A manufacturer contacted me because of my silly posts/mods on this site and had questions. They have been very generous and helped create a patent that I now own. Worthless, but it's another piece of paper that can be used to incinerate my body when I die.

[JBert]

Personally, I find the stalking posts about the developer creepy and not exactly representative of a healthy community.

Well, if the Truly Ergonomic guys can't go through the hassle of publicizing more info of who and where they are, how can one know where the money went?

If they didn't want their personal information to be public, couldn't they have formed some company and use their business address?

[Lanx]

maybe TE just utterly ultimately fails at customer service/goodwill, like they just cannot do it, they don't think that showing a working prototype is useful.

[Findecanor]

i can't understand which part from
the imaginary TE keyboard requires an patent..

It is not a patent for a "invention". It is a "design patent" which covers how the keyboard looks, basically.

Every "design patent" has only one claim, which refers only to the pictures in the document.
In a real patent, each claim must be worded very precisely to define what the "invention" is and what separates it from prior art -- and because of this, a patent application may have to go through several iterations to get this right. Not so with "design patents".

The Kinesis contoured has two "patents": A patent for the "invention" with the important bits described and a "design patent" that has only blueprints of the final product.

There are tonnes of "design patents" even for ordinary-looking QWERTY keyboards that look like nothing special.

In other countries, the word "patent" is not even used for this kind of intellectual property, because it is not usually considered as a type of patent.

[nesiax]

The idea of the "curve" staggered key positions is not new and definitely not from TE self, the japanes boy's was first with such an layout, later Maltron has also used this design.. i can't understand which part from the imaginary TE keyboard requires an patent..

The japanese guys  have done that before ...

[appie747]

The japanese guys  have done that before ...

Oke, who are these Japanese guys? Which brand is it?

[noctua]

The japanese guys  have done that before ...

It was time to say that.. otherwise some people thinks TE has found the
holy grail of ergonomic concepts.. ;-)

Anyway nice shoots, if there any chance to get one of those "historically"
gems?

[nesiax]

Oke, who are these Japanese guys? Which brand is it?

AFAIK according to the logo, it was NEC

The page where the original picture was extracted is here:

http://www.sol.dti.ne.jp/~cdrcarco/

The above page is a japanese page about ergonomics, not only keyboards.

And i found that page on deskthority.net, where you can also find another forum about TE http://www.overclock.net/keyboards/860603-trulyergonomic-mechnical-keyboard.html#post11278143  ... no comments ...

[sordna]

The japanese guys  have done that before ...

Show Image

Wow, these keyboards look realy interesting, especially that small one at the bottom left looks awesome, has mild symmetrical staggering like the uTron. The one on the bottom right looks cool too, does anyone know the model numbers and if they're available anywhere ?

[iMav]

The new images of the pre-production model look great!

[iMav]

I really like being able to finally see how the palm rest integrates.  (and I think it looks pretty darned slick)

[greywidget]

Given the pics above, I guess people already know that there has been some progress it seems.

Here is the email I got last night:

=========================
This email is to provide you with an update during our pre-production phase of the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard.
 
Images and Videos:
 
We are pleased to let you know that we have received pre-production models, have captured a set of images, and have uploaded them to our website for you to review them at your leisure. These images can be viewed by following the new 'Gallery' link on our website at http://www.trulyergonomic.com
 
We have also updated all keyboard images throughout our website.
 
We are currently creating a simple video to demonstrate the major advantages of the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard, and to contrast it with conventional keyboards and other ergonomic keyboards. We will upload this video to our website once finalized.
 
Manufacturing updates:
 
Patience is a virtue, and fortunately we have all had plenty of it. The good news is that everything is heading forward, and that the light at the end of the tunnel is finally within reach (small as a sub-atomic particle, but it is there).
 
Favourably for everyone, our manufacturer is as perfectionist as we are; seems we all want to manufacture and deliver a first-rate product with the highest quality possible. With the only inconvenience being that this perfection takes longer than we'd all expected, and so the unpredicted delivery delays.
 
Estimated Delivery date:
 
As you already might know, we unfortunately have experienced manufacturing hurdles which were out of our control where we were keen to avoid any circumstances under which the quality of the shipped Truly Ergonomic Keyboard might be viewed as unsatisfactory. We thank you again to accept these delays as being prudent.
 
Everything is well and according to plan except the estimated delivery date; we realize that initial delivery dates we gave you arrived prematurely given third-party hurdles which we failed to anticipate. We apologize and thank you once again for your support.
 
We will contact you again when we have specific information regarding the delivery date of your Truly Ergonomic Keyboard. We offer our sincere gratitude or your patience and for your continuous interest in the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard.
 
Please send us an email should you have any questions or require additional information.
 
Regards,
The Truly Ergonomic team
====================

[krstf]

The new images of the pre-production model look great!

Ahh, suspense sweet suspense...
I hope they put up the video announced in their mail SOON.

[milh_cbt]

I'm glad, I don't have to buy another expensive mechanic keyboard.
if TE is real, it will be best value mechanic keyboard.