Dvorak vs colemak

[BMF96]

I don't type a lot. Most of my typing is for school and recreation. I have always poked the keys and sometimes have to look. I am not a programmer. I do use my computer a lot for gaming. I have been researching a lot and there clearly isn't a better layout.

I don't care which takes longer or is easier to learn, I'm mostly interested in the end result. It also doesn't matter to me that any other computer I use will be QWERTY. I think I could get over the CTRL Z, X, C, V placements on dvorak by just remapping it to the function keys. I am right handed, but I try to do things with my left hand a lot, so I don't want it to prefer the right hand. I could possibly use the mouse left handed if that would be better.

Lastly, will this affect gaming? I don't mind remapping game controls because I usually change them a bit anyway. In Dvorak, the "W" would be a "," and I heard that some games don't allow that, and I don't want to use the arrow keys.

[davkol]

It depends whether you prefer rolls (Colemak), or hand alternation (Dvorak). It's as simple as that. Other differences are minor (except that Dvorak is still more common, and transition to Colemak might be easier thanks to Tarmak).

I recommend to keep QWERTY skills for some occasions and possibly gaming.

BTW welcome to wallet^Wgeekhack.

[esoomenona]

It depends whether you prefer rolls (Colemak), or hand alternation (Dvorak). It's as simple as that. Other differences are minor (except that Dvorak is still more common, and transition to Colemak might be easier thanks to Tarmak).

Welcome to geekhack!

[BMF96]

Thanks for the reply and the welcome!

I think I will stick to QWERTY for gaming. I guess I will just have to try them out to see which I prefer.

What do you mean wallet^Wgeekhack?

BTW esoomenona, for some reason I can't view the pic.

[metalliqaz]

Even though Dvorak is more common, it seems like Colemak is very close to reaching critical mass and Colemak seems to be better thought-out for computer use.  Disclaimer, I have never learned either.

[odyssomay]

I use dvorak, and find it very comfortable to type on. I have also tried to
learn colemak, but never went all out and actually learned it.

I used the guide below for learning dvorak. Highly recommended. Just
took a couple of hours to go through and I knew the whole layout afterwards.
http://gigliwood.com/abcd/lessons/

I usually rebind my keys for gaming. I have run into problems mapping
comma in some games, but that is easily solved by using some other
keys than wasd (for example fcvb in qwerty).

What do you mean wallet^Wgeekhack?

Buying mechanical keyboards gets expensive really fast.

[Hazel]

As a recent switcher who tried both, I'm now a Colemak Believer.

My story:
(TLDR:  Made a serious effort to learn Dvorak, but eventually found that Colemak works much better for me.)

I never learned to properly touch-type.  I decided I wanted to learn - properly - by starting over with Dvorak.  (At the time I was aware of Colemak, but rejected it as just a "tweaked qwerty.")

Dvorak made a lot of sense - AT FIRST.  But after a month, I started noticing the problems.  The nonsensical placement of I vs U, the hard-to-reach F, the scrunchy L.   These are not serious issues when you're punching keys with your whole hand in a left-right-left-right pattern on a mechanical typewriter, but they tangle and stress your fingers on a modern keyboard.

I spent some time trying to "fix" Dvorak with custom layouts, and tried Workman for a week as well, before looking again at Colemak.

After a few days with Colemak it clicked, and I've been using it for almost 3 months now - first at home, and now at work as well.  I even program using it.  My speed is about to surpass my former qwerty speed and I'm still improving steadily.

(And while it was not originally important to me, the fact that ZXCV shortcuts stay the same as qwerty is VERY nice!)

The relative "popularity" of Dvorak is not really a selling point.  Once you're relegated to the minority of alternate-layout users, it hardly matters which alternate you use.

In conclusion:
Dvorak was designed for a mechanical typewriter, with emphasis on hand-alteration.  Colemak is designed for a computer keyboard, with emphasis on avoiding same-finger strikes.  If you're starting fresh, the learning curve is the same for both; if you already touch-type qwerty then Colemak will probably be easier to learn.

So in my personal experience, Colemak is far more usable than Dvorak, and I'm glad I made the switch.

[odyssomay]

The relative "popularity" of Dvorak is not really a selling point.

...

If you're starting fresh, the learning curve is the same for both; if you already touch-type qwerty then Colemak will probably be easier to learn.

Similarly, the qwerty similarities is really not a selling point either. In fact, it probably causes more confusion than help.

A comparison of row percentages:
http://soukie.net/2010/06/06/of-keyboards-and-men-3/


From http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1158

There is some good reason for the l's placement.  I really love typing should, could, and would.  A lot of words with the l involve a rocking motion on the right hand, right pinky, left hand, right index, left hand.  There certainly feels like some logic to it.  Take the word 'logic' for example.  There is a niceness about it.  Vowels are on the left hand with Dvorak.

I wholeheartedly agree, typing l + d feels very good, with a rocking motion.

[Hazel]

Similarly, the qwerty similarities is really not a selling point either. In fact, it probably causes more confusion than help.

Fair enough.  I was never a qwerty touch-typist so I have no personal experience here; I was just parroting Colemak propaganda.

And I agree that there is a lot of logic in Dvorak.  I really like the "vowels-on-the-left" philosophy, the placement of TH, the neat downward swipe of "ght."  The logic of Dvorak one of the reasons I ignored Colemak for so long before giving it a try.

It was not my intention to imply that Colemak is objectively superior (although I may have gotten a little zealous in my support).  Colemak has problems of its own (chiefly, the location of H).  But in the end (and much to my surprise), Colemak "clicked" and worked better for me, personally.  I would encourage everyone to try alternate layouts themselves and see what works for them.

Because honestly, anything's better than qwerty  .

[odyssomay]

It was not my intention to imply that Colemak is objectively superior (although I may have gotten a little zealous in my support).  Colemak has problems of its own (chiefly, the location of H).  But in the end (and much to my surprise), Colemak "clicked" and worked better for me, personally.  I would encourage everyone to try alternate layouts themselves and see what works for them.

Because honestly, anything's better than qwerty  .

Bold: yeah, same here... 

And yes, if it's not qwerty, it's probably going to be just fine.

[nubbinator]

Dvorak doesn't have any scientific evidence pointing to it being either better for typing speed of ergonomics than Qwerty.  On the other hand, Colemak does seem to have some evidence lending credence to the idea of it being superior to Qwerty and Dvorak in terms of ergonomics, but speed shouldn't really be any different.  Colemak also has the advantage of being easier to switch to from Qwerty given the similarities in the layout and allows for easy one handed use of common commands like Ctrl+x, Ctrl+c, and Ctrl+v.

Personally I can't use either because home row typing slows me down and is more uncomfortable to me.  While my index fingers lay on the home keys, my middle finger and ring finger tend to lay on the row above.  As such, it feels incredibly cramped and unnatural to type mainly using home row keys.

[remedyhalopc]

What do you mean wallet^Wgeekhack?

GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN

[HaaTa]

Personally I can't use either because home row typing slows me down and is more uncomfortable to me.  While my index fingers lay on the home keys, my middle finger and ring finger tend to lay on the row above.  As such, it feels incredibly cramped and unnatural to type mainly using home row keys.

I'm curious Nubbinator, do you keep your fingers straight, or do you curl them when typing? I probably only curl due to many years of it being beaten into my head practicing piano.
(Colemak user for 3 years)

[nubbinator]

I'm curious Nubbinator, do you keep your fingers straight, or do you curl them when typing? I probably only curl due to many years of it being beaten into my head practicing piano.
(Colemak user for 3 years)

I don't see how anyone could type with perfectly straight fingers.  I tend to have a slight arch to my fingers (my fingers lie on my keyboard almost like my hand does when I palm grip a mouse) with my thumbs resting on the space bar and the other fingers lying naturally on the keyboard with index fingers on the home key and middle fingers on the I and E and ring fingers on either the O and W or S and L (kind of hovering in between sometimes).  The way I would have to type or hold my fingers to make home row typing would cause additional stress and fatigue since I'd have to curl my fingers underneath and have them in close proximity to each, so close that they'd be rubbing against each other when typing.

[Grim Fandango]

If you were to use Colemak every day, how long would you say it would take a person that can now type around 70 WPM comfortably, to get back to that same speed? Is it virtually guaranteed that you will be faster in time?

I have always been interested in trying, but have no idea of the kind of effort it is going to take to learn it. Normal touch typing using a home row is also quite comfortable for me. I can literally type for hours without any strain or discomfort.  So the only benefit I am looking for is speed. Would it still be worth it.

[nubbinator]

I highly doubt you'd see a noticeable speed increase.  Some people get a little faster, some get a little slower, but there is a long curve to just get back to the speed you were at with Qwerty.  The real reason you switch to the alternative layouts is not for speed increases, but for increased comfort and decreased finger movement when typing.

[PointyFox]

As a recent switcher who tried both, I'm now a Colemak Believer.

My story:
(TLDR:  Made a serious effort to learn Dvorak, but eventually found that Colemak works much better for me.)

I never learned to properly touch-type.  I decided I wanted to learn - properly - by starting over with Dvorak.  (At the time I was aware of Colemak, but rejected it as just a "tweaked qwerty.")

Dvorak made a lot of sense - AT FIRST.  But after a month, I started noticing the problems.  The nonsensical placement of I vs U, the hard-to-reach F, the scrunchy L.   These are not serious issues when you're punching keys with your whole hand in a left-right-left-right pattern on a mechanical typewriter, but they tangle and stress your fingers on a modern keyboard.

I spent some time trying to "fix" Dvorak with custom layouts, and tried Workman for a week as well, before looking again at Colemak.

After a few days with Colemak it clicked, and I've been using it for almost 3 months now - first at home, and now at work as well.  I even program using it.  My speed is about to surpass my former qwerty speed and I'm still improving steadily.

(And while it was not originally important to me, the fact that ZXCV shortcuts stay the same as qwerty is VERY nice!)

The relative "popularity" of Dvorak is not really a selling point.  Once you're relegated to the minority of alternate-layout users, it hardly matters which alternate you use.

In conclusion:
Dvorak was designed for a mechanical typewriter, with emphasis on hand-alteration.  Colemak is designed for a computer keyboard, with emphasis on avoiding same-finger strikes.  If you're starting fresh, the learning curve is the same for both; if you already touch-type qwerty then Colemak will probably be easier to learn.

So in my personal experience, Colemak is far more usable than Dvorak, and I'm glad I made the switch.

Actually qwerty was designed for a mechanical typewriter, with emphasis on scattered frequency placement so the typewriter has less chance of getting jammed.  Dvorak came later, but still for the typewriter, this time optimizing key placement based on frequency and finger strength, but still separating commonly used keys to prevent jamming.  Colemak came later and emphasizes efficiency and ergonomics with disregard for typewriter jamming problems.  Therefor Colemak is the best for typing, though you will have to remap things that are designed for qwerty.

[Hazel]

If you were to use Colemak every day, how long would you say it would take a person that can now type around 70 WPM comfortably, to get back to that same speed? Is it virtually guaranteed that you will be faster in time?

Depending on serious you are and how hard you practice, it would take anywhere from a few weeks to a few months.  Since you are already a decent typist, it should take less time.  You might get faster, if that is your goal and you work at it, but it is not guaranteed.

Learning Colemak or Dorvak is easier, because the most common letters are on the home row so you start out typing real words and training common key sequences.  Within a couple days you will know enough to muddle through sentences and try using it in practical (but not speed-critical) situations.

Personally, I was hunt-pecking 45 error-filled wpm on qwerty; now I'm touch-typing 40 wpm with 0 errors on Colemak and still improving.  But this probably has more to do with actually learning to touch-type, period, than the key layout.

I have always been interested in trying, but have no idea of the kind of effort it is going to take to learn it. Normal touch typing using a home row is also quite comfortable for me. I can literally type for hours without any strain or discomfort.  So the only benefit I am looking for is speed. Would it still be worth it.

Try it and see!   Dvorak is available in the default install on Windows and OSX.  Colemak is a default in OSX, you will need to install it on Windows - and on both platforms you'll need a 3rd-party tool if you want to remap capslock to backspace (AutoHotKey on Win, PCKeyboardHack on Mac).   There are free online tutorials for both layouts that will get you started.  Spend 20 minutes an evening on is, you'll know very quickly if it appeals to you.

[gnubag]

well to be honest all you do is creating muscle memory for common words/combinations so if you are getting comfortable repeating things you wont have a problem.

right now you all are probably typing with muscle memory. o.0

[davkol]

Dvorak doesn't have any scientific evidence pointing to it being either better for typing speed of ergonomics than Qwerty.  On the other hand, Colemak does seem to have some evidence lending credence to the idea of it being superior to Qwerty and Dvorak in terms of ergonomics, but speed shouldn't really be any different.  Colemak also has the advantage of being easier to switch to from Qwerty given the similarities in the layout and allows for easy one handed use of common commands like Ctrl+x, Ctrl+c, and Ctrl+v.

Wait a minute...

Personally I can't use either because home row typing slows me down and is more uncomfortable to me.  While my index fingers lay on the home keys, my middle finger and ring finger tend to lay on the row above.  As such, it feels incredibly cramped and unnatural to type mainly using home row keys.

That's why you need a keyboard (ErgoDox) with staggered rows, not columns.

It was not my intention to imply that Colemak is objectively superior (although I may have gotten a little zealous in my support).  Colemak has problems of its own (chiefly, the location of H).  But in the end (and much to my surprise), Colemak "clicked" and worked better for me, personally.  I would encourage everyone to try alternate layouts themselves and see what works for them.

Because honestly, anything's better than qwerty  .

Bold: yeah, same here... 

And yes, if it's not qwerty, it's probably going to be just fine.

ABCDEF (or some even more ridiculous layout, such as TNWMLC) is not QWERTY, but definitely isn't fine.

The relative "popularity" of Dvorak is not really a selling point.

...

If you're starting fresh, the learning curve is the same for both; if you already touch-type qwerty then Colemak will probably be easier to learn.

Similarly, the qwerty similarities is really not a selling point either. In fact, it probably causes more confusion than help.

It depends whether one goes cold turkey, or uses e.g. Tarmak.

If you were to use Colemak every day, how long would you say it would take a person that can now type around 70 WPM comfortably, to get back to that same speed? Is it virtually guaranteed that you will be faster in time?

Some people reach their QWERTY speed in about three weeks, some don't it took me six months to get to my QWERTY speed (55 wpm), but I was fine with that (I didn't practice almost at all, only used the layout daily). Nowadays, I can hit 70+ wpm when concentrating.

I have always been interested in trying, but have no idea of the kind of effort it is going to take to learn it. Normal touch typing using a home row is also quite comfortable for me. I can literally type for hours without any strain or discomfort.  So the only benefit I am looking for is speed. Would it still be worth it.

If you're looking only for speed improvements, you'd be probably disappointed. However, it seems you have no idea how much more comfortable Colemak is.

[nubbinator]

Personally I can't use either because home row typing slows me down and is more uncomfortable to me.  While my index fingers lay on the home keys, my middle finger and ring finger tend to lay on the row above.  As such, it feels incredibly cramped and unnatural to type mainly using home row keys.

That's why you need a keyboard (ErgoDox) with staggered rows, not columns.

I wouldn't disagree there.  If I had a keyboard with a staggered layout, I would give Colemak a try.  I just can't afford something like the Ergodox and since I'm out of grad school, I haven't been typing enough to justify a keyboard like it even if I could.  Most of what my keyboard is doing now is helping me play games after I get back from a long job hunting session at the library or coffee shop.

[danielh]

I have been using Dvorak since January. One day I switched my work layout, and refused to go back. Productivity took a nosedive, but within two months, I can fully touch-type (which I had never been able to do with QWERTY).

I tried Colemak first, but couldn't seem to learn the layout. Everything seemed terribly scattered. With Dvorak, everything is arranged in such a way that I was able to remember that vowels and punctuation are in the left hand, predominant consonants in the right, and letter frequency seems logically tied to certain fingers. Where Colemak might be slightly more optimized, Dvorak feels like it was thought out by a human (perhaps a slightly obsessive human).

X,V,C: not terribly important that they stay in the same spot for me.

I must say that I am tempted to try Colemak again. Not for any reason other than all that sexy talk about 'rolls.'

Dvorak feels so much better than QWERTY ever did.

[Input Nirvana]

There is a lot of good info, observations, and practical thoughts in this thread.

I'm a Colemak user for years now, and a Kinesis Advantage lover for years as well. No RSI. Not a programmer or novelist or keyboard user 8 hours daily. I type competently but am no 70-100wpm speed demon.

But let me say this: Qwerty on a regular "flat board" never worked for me, ever. Switching to a Kinesis helped me be far more comfortable, and switching to Colemak made typing letters make 'sense' and easier and my hands more comfortable.

Colemak sure has grown, in one way it's surprising, but then again, not at all..it's a very competent layout. And to be honest, it's one of many competent layouts.

[Hazel]

I tried Colemak first, but couldn't seem to learn the layout. Everything seemed terribly scattered.

I felt that way too.  It looked like someone had just shuffled qwerty around a bit.  But after spending many days playing with patorjk's keyboard analyzer, I accepted that Colemak's same-finger metrics were nigh-unbeatable. I figured it must be doing something right!

So I opened my mind and gave it a try, running through the online tutorials.  Rather than trying to "understand" it logically, I just cleared my mind, accepted it as-is, and practiced the exercises.  After a couple days, the muscle memory started kicking in and something in my brain just clicked, in a way that never clicked for Dvorak.  I was surprised to learn that yes, Colemak works - scattered or not.

That said, if you're happy with Dvorak you probably won't find much use in switching.  But feel free to give Colemak another try!

[Tony]

After touch typing in Qwerty for 15 years, I switched to Colemak 2 years ago.

I reached old Qwerty speed in 60 days and continue to type 10wpm faster.

Since Colemak has 10 common keys with Qwerty, new switcher only have to learn the rest 17 keys, which will shorten the switching time.

I recommend you switch to Colemak if you are typing in Qwerty. If you already switched to Dvorak or any other layout, then you don't have to switch again.

[pocketdrummer]

I know this probably shouldn't factor into your decision at all, but the cluster for FPS games on dvorak is ,aoe. While the Colemak cluster is

WARS

 

[TimIsABat]

I know this probably should factor into your decision at all, but the cluster for FPS games on dvorak is ,aoe. While the Colemak cluster is

WARS

 

Making it the most elite layout ever. I actually game on FRST which is also awesome and feels more natural with the distance to the left shift key.