First Ergo Keyboard - Kinesis Classic vs Essential vs Advantage vs Maxim

[keeeeenw]

Hi!

If you don't want to read through my long explanation, here is my main question:

Is Kinesis Advantage just an USB version of Kinesis Classic? In other words, can I just buy Classic with a USB converter and get pretty much the same benefit as Advantage but spend half the price?

I use computer for programming. My daily computer is MacBook Pro running OS 10.7.

I just started my research on ergo keyboards/mice because I have some pain in my wrist after extended use of keyboard and mouse. I do a lot of computer programming and occasionally some gaming. My first choice is Kinesis Advantage. I can afford $300 ($260 on Amazon) but I just want to make sure I get most benefits out of the money I spend. So I started to reading reviews and following items on ebay and I notice that some people are selling Kinesis Classic and Essential in a much lower price points ($50-$100).

I am wondering about the differences among the three models offered by Kinesis. I know the following:

• Essential uses PC/2
• Classic is similar to Essential but offers remapping and some programmable features.
• Advantage is the newest and most expensive model, which supports USB.

I have also noticed that Kinesis Maxim is an affordable split keyboard on ebay( $30-$100). Is keyboards Kinesis Advantage really necessary? Can I just use a split keyboard? How's Microsoft 4000? How's logitech Wave?

I am also looking for a good ergo mouse. I am deciding among the following models:
Evoluent VerticalMouse 4 - expensive but good reviews
Evoluent VerticalMouse 3 Rev 2 - half the price, seems to have good reviews too
Logitech M570 - some people said trackball mouse also helps
Logitech M705 - this is more like the regular mouse, but kind of curved

Thanks! I know I have much to learn, please share with me some of your ergo mouse/keyboard experiences.

[Lanx]

say no to membrane keyboards... it's not being snobby and it's just better to get a mechboard

you'll get the more affluent kinesis guys telling you the difference between the models.

i use a modded kinesis classic myself, i actually use it for the ps/2 port so i have issues with it, i also used it with the ibm or blekin converter to usb, works fine as well.

[hoggy]

Have you seen your doctor?

If it helps, the Microsoft keyboard will have very stiff keys by the end of the first year and will need replacing.  Only, you probably won't notice it needs replacing until you are really sick and tired of having to go back and correct your typing because you missed letters.

Your need for an ergo keyboard will not go away, even if your wrists feel better, why would you go back?  The Advantage will last much longer than the others and will work out cheaper in the long run.  Plus it's smaller than the microsoft offering.  I'm only trying to steer back to kinesis - I'm sure that if the PS2 works for Lanx, then you'll be fine with it.  The functions key on the advantage aren't great.  Consider getting a g84-4700 as well.

A vertical mouse is a good idea - I've got one that I can use left or right - I've swapped exclusively to left now.  I haven't tried any of those models, but you could shift to the left between now and when you get one.

Since you're a programmer, why not use those skills to build tools to help you program?  A few years ago I built a little utility that generates the bulk of the text of a function for me.  I just feed it the name, the arguments and the variables and it creates a good deal of the code.

Plenty of stuff out there that can help.

Ditto - it's a clipboard manager
Texter - text expansion software (autohotkey is better, but a little harder to set up)
Chrome - easier on the keystrokes
Workrave - rest break reminders
Macro express - very easy to use macro software.

You could even try dvorak or colemak.

[keeeeenw]

say no to membrane keyboards... it's not being snobby and it's just better to get a mechboard

you'll get the more affluent kinesis guys telling you the difference between the models.

i use a modded kinesis classic myself, i actually use it for the ps/2 port so i have issues with it, i also used it with the ibm or blekin converter to usb, works fine as well.

Thanks Lanx! I am definitely going to use mechanical keyboard this time! Thank you for confirming that PS2 to USB converter is working on Kinesis classic.

[keeeeenw]

Have you seen your doctor?

If it helps, the Microsoft keyboard will have very stiff keys by the end of the first year and will need replacing.  Only, you probably won't notice it needs replacing until you are really sick and tired of having to go back and correct your typing because you missed letters.

Your need for an ergo keyboard will not go away, even if your wrists feel better, why would you go back?  The Advantage will last much longer than the others and will work out cheaper in the long run.  Plus it's smaller than the microsoft offering.  I'm only trying to steer back to kinesis - I'm sure that if the PS2 works for Lanx, then you'll be fine with it.  The functions key on the advantage aren't great.  Consider getting a g84-4700 as well.

A vertical mouse is a good idea - I've got one that I can use left or right - I've swapped exclusively to left now.  I haven't tried any of those models, but you could shift to the left between now and when you get one.

Since you're a programmer, why not use those skills to build tools to help you program?  A few years ago I built a little utility that generates the bulk of the text of a function for me.  I just feed it the name, the arguments and the variables and it creates a good deal of the code.

Plenty of stuff out there that can help.

Ditto - it's a clipboard manager
Texter - text expansion software (autohotkey is better, but a little harder to set up)
Chrome - easier on the keystrokes
Workrave - rest break reminders
Macro express - very easy to use macro software.

You could even try dvorak or colemak.

Thanks Hoggy!

I haven't yet seen a doctor about this issue. I would say it is more discomfort than pain at this point. I just want to plan for the future by getting the right ergo setup. Seeing a doctor early may be a good idea.

Could you tell me which vertical mouse are you using? I assume Evoluent is the best one but there should be a lot of alternatives.

I don't know the current quality condition for Kinesis Advantage. The reviews are mixed. Some people said the keyboard starts to get some problem after one or two years. That's why I don't want to spend $300 for a keyboard that I cannot use for more than 5 years. But I have also heard that Kinesis has a good customer service, so it may not be too bad if the keyboard breaks.

My current plan is to get an used Classic/Essential and use them for one or two years. Then I would have a better idea on whether I want to get a new Kinesis for 5+ years.

As for programming tools, I use VIM as my primary editor which saves me some typings. I am also using IDE tools on projects and these tools comes with auto code generation features. Thank for reminding me to study more about auto code generation features and probably write some myself. I will try your recommended programs too (Chrome is great and it does have a lot of keystrokes features)!

Dvorak seems to be a fun project for the summer. I have just started my lesson this week.

[Input Nirvana]

Kinesis Advantage is PS/2 native with an active USB converter/adapter board added on (it's made by Pi Engineering).

You can use a PS/2-USB adapter. But the Advantage has some features that are different than the Essential/Classic/Professional series.

Not sure about the "problems" you are hearing about after a year or two with Kinesis boards. Never heard that anywhere, boards are for sale on Ebay everyday that are going on 20 years old. When you buy a Kinesis you are buying the service as well, it's very good.

Much info is in my article (see link) but the pictures are currently missing and it may be confusing. Trying to find time to fix it.

[hoggy]

I believe that kinesis has a 60 day return policy - so you can't go wrong.

[keeeeenw]

Kinesis Advantage is PS/2 native with an active USB converter/adapter board added on (it's made by Pi Engineering).

You can use a PS/2-USB adapter. But the Advantage has some features that are different than the Essential/Classic/Professional series.

Not sure about the "problems" you are hearing about after a year or two with Kinesis boards. Never heard that anywhere, boards are for sale on Ebay everyday that are going on 20 years old. When you buy a Kinesis you are buying the service as well, it's very good.

Much info is in my article (see link) but the pictures are currently missing and it may be confusing. Trying to find time to fix it.

I am reading through your thread now. Thank you for sharing the information! Some reviews on Amazon mention the quality issue with Advantage. Not sure if the review are reliable though. I like the fact that I am also paying for the service.

[keeeeenw]

I believe that kinesis has a 60 day return policy - so you can't go wrong.

Yeah! That would give me enough time to try it out.

[figit090]

DAMN I'm not used to the "multi quote" button location this took me several tries to realize I was clicking the wrong ones...it's at the TOP of the post not like other forums where it's at the bottom.  BLAH lol.
Anyway....
As far as your differences between models, the Essential, as I JUST discovered, has the same "macro" and "program" keys but unlike the Classic and Professional, forgets everything upon reboot/power loss.  Not sure about sleep.  Point being, you'll loose all your programming if you turn off your PC.  I'm currently using a Classic model and my wrist stress has gone down considerably.  I still have stress in my left hand but I also made a dent in my wrist pad, suggesting I have poor posture that leans toward my left.   I used a microsoft ergo keyboard yesterday and after about one or two hours my hands were already feeling fatigued!  Definitely worth it and if you don't want surgery to correct RSI or carpal tunnel injuries...I'd recommend at least the most basic kinesis board you can afford until you can afford the one you want.  all keyboards should be this comfortable!  It even has a built-in click speaker that emits a very faint click when keystrokes are activated, so you can better learn to touch type on the new design without confusing missed strokes for completed ones.

Kinesis Advantage is PS/2 native with an active USB converter/adapter board added on (it's made by Pi Engineering).
...
Much info is in my article (see link) but the pictures are currently missing and it may be confusing. Trying to find time to fix it.

I am reading through your thread now. Thank you for sharing the information! Some reviews on Amazon mention the quality issue with Advantage. Not sure if the review are reliable though. I like the fact that I am also paying for the service.

Yeah, I've emailed their customer service and Ryan, who is also on these forums, is a great!  Very helpful.   I imagine spare parts would not be very hard to obtain at all. 

A vertical mouse is a good idea - I've got one that I can use left or right - I've swapped exclusively to left now.  I haven't tried any of those models, but you could shift to the left between now and when you get one.

Since you're a programmer, why not use those skills to build tools to help you program?  A few years ago I built a little utility that generates the bulk of the text of a function for me.  I just feed it the name, the arguments and the variables and it creates a good deal of the code.

Plenty of stuff out there that can help.

Ditto - it's a clipboard manager
Texter - text expansion software (autohotkey is better, but a little harder to set up)
Chrome - easier on the keystrokes
Workrave - rest break reminders
Macro express - very easy to use macro software.

You could even try dvorak or colemak.

woah cool i've been wanting some rest break reminders and better copy/paste management, thank you!  I hope those work for me.  how did you like switching to left-hand mouse, and are you ambidextrous?   I currently use a 3m ergonomic mouse that's a tad to small for me (small size i found at a thrift store) but I'm interested in other good options.

[natas206]

Kinesis Advantage is PS/2 native with an active USB converter/adapter board added on (it's made by Pi Engineering).

You can use a PS/2-USB adapter. But the Advantage has some features that are different than the Essential/Classic/Professional series.

Not sure about the "problems" you are hearing about after a year or two with Kinesis boards. Never heard that anywhere, boards are for sale on Ebay everyday that are going on 20 years old. When you buy a Kinesis you are buying the service as well, it's very good.

Much info is in my article (see link) but the pictures are currently missing and it may be confusing. Trying to find time to fix it.

I am reading through your thread now. Thank you for sharing the information! Some reviews on Amazon mention the quality issue with Advantage. Not sure if the review are reliable though. I like the fact that I am also paying for the service.

There shouldn't be any quality issues with the Advantage. It's basically the same parts as the Classic, only it has a USB converter, USB cable and built in USB hub.

There are some additional features on the newer Advantage that the older keyboards do not have (Multi Media keys, Instant Configuration Settings, etc.) but the Classic will still work great provided you have a PS/2 port, or use the right kind of USB adaptor (must be an Active PS/2 to USB not adaptor, not a Passive adaptor). This one works great.

[hoggy]

A vertical mouse is a good idea - I've got one that I can use left or right - I've swapped exclusively to left now.  I haven't tried any of those models, but you could shift to the left between now and when you get one.

Since you're a programmer, why not use those skills to build tools to help you program?  A few years ago I built a little utility that generates the bulk of the text of a function for me.  I just feed it the name, the arguments and the variables and it creates a good deal of the code.

Plenty of stuff out there that can help.

Ditto - it's a clipboard manager
Texter - text expansion software (autohotkey is better, but a little harder to set up)
Chrome - easier on the keystrokes
Workrave - rest break reminders
Macro express - very easy to use macro software.

You could even try dvorak or colemak.

woah cool i've been wanting some rest break reminders and better copy/paste management, thank you!  I hope those work for me.  how did you like switching to left-hand mouse, and are you ambidextrous?   I currently use a 3m ergonomic mouse that's a tad to small for me (small size i found at a thrift store) but I'm interested in other good options.

I'd say the difference between left and right mousing is a little more than the difference between 'standard' and vertical mice.  I had a 3m for a while - loved it - just wore it out and was overusing the right shoulder for a while.  I'm right handed.

It's a DXT precision mouse... A trifle small, but works fairly well.  Should it fail I'll try an evoluent.

[Torious]

I am also looking for a good ergo mouse. I am deciding among the following models:
Evoluent VerticalMouse 4 - expensive but good reviews
Evoluent VerticalMouse 3 Rev 2 - half the price, seems to have good reviews too
Logitech M570 - some people said trackball mouse also helps
Logitech M705 - this is more like the regular mouse, but kind of curved

I currently have the Logitech M705 and I would advise you NOT to get it for ergonomic reasons. There is something wrong with the shape, not sure what but here are some guesses: Too small to fill up / support your hand; too heavy too move it with just your fingers. I'm deciding what replacement to get myself...

[vivalarevolución]

You forgot to include Maltron in your list.  Like Kinesis, only better.  Aad holy cow, they changed their website for the first time since the 20th century and it's even harder to navigate.

http://www.maltron.com/shop/category/64-usa

[sordna]

You forgot to include Maltron in your list.  Like Kinesis, only better.

Ummm, no. I wouldn't call Maltron better. It does have slightly better hand positioning, but has some problems that overall make it less practical than a Kinesis. For example, Maltron only comes with the heavy cherry black switches, it's not programmable (huge downside for me), and had some quirks soch as sending multiple keycodes for a single keypress which made key remapping for certain keys difficult even at the OS level. I spent a few days with a Maltron and very happily went back to my Kinesis Classic which I was using at that time. I'm even happier with the Advantage LF (cherry red switches). I also love the built-in speaker of the Kinesis for audible feedback, so much so, that I implemented it on the ErgoDox as well!