Author Topic: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter  (Read 10819 times)

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Offline hoggy

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Offline ski_

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Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 07 March 2017, 23:27:02 »
Thanks for posting this. MX Blue, or MX Brown-- such decisions...
« Last Edit: Sun, 19 March 2017, 08:53:41 by ski_ »

Offline hoggy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 07 March 2017, 23:29:48 »
If you have co workers - I'd go for brown.  I like the feel of both, but not a big fan of the sound of blues.
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Offline Niomosy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 00:17:01 »
Might have to see about an MX reds version.  Though I must admit that just having my Ducky in a negative tilt, not smashing the keys, and some occasional foam rolling have me uncertain as to whether I'll really need an ergo board or not.

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 00:44:46 »
mmm.....  it's ok.......  but the default tenting option doesn't seem to go beyond 30 degrees..

Offline sems

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 01:17:18 »
This looks like what Mistel Barocco should have been in the first place regarding to tenting.

Online Findecanor

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 12:48:38 »
No ISO!
All keys are OEM home row profile (except Space Bar)
Buying two or six at once is cheaper per unit. (local group orders!)
Layout editor is Windows only (but Linux nerds modify the text file anyway)
They reference the Deskthority Wiki :) (which in turn references a post on Geekhack by Kinesis' rep natas206, so yeah: circle)
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Offline cribbit

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 14:50:05 »
I get what they're trying to do but I feel like if you're into keyboards enough to go for split you can go for a good layout, like a let's split or an ergodox.
I typed this post on my Slanck. I also developed a stronger, cleaner, easier handwiring method.


Offline natas206

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 15:06:56 »
Oh man, that video is so professional  :) The people on here who interact with us know how small of a company we are so it's weird seeing a video so nicely done. Not complaining though!

As most of you all know we've had the Freestyle out for some time, but it always lacked a couple of big things - mechanical key switches and the programming features of the Advantage. So once we designed the new electronics for the Advantage2, we could use that in the Freestyle Edge, which made a lot of sense for it to all come together.

Now I know its impossible to please everyone, some people are really going to like it, others will wish it was something else, but at the end of the day its really cool for us to see something like this finally come together especially after all the requests we received to make a mechaincal version of the Freestyle. It's been fun working on everything and I really like the new programming features, it makes my job a lot easier being able to see actual files.  Some of the features the Edge has will eventually carry over to the Adv2 (like NKRO, I believe), so that's cool too as an Adv2 user myself.

Offline cribbit

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 15:16:45 »
Oh man, that video is so professional  :) The people on here who interact with us know how small of a company we are so it's weird seeing a video so nicely done. Not complaining though!

As most of you all know we've had the Freestyle out for some time, but it always lacked a couple of big things - mechanical key switches and the programming features of the Advantage. So once we designed the new electronics for the Advantage2, we could use that in the Freestyle Edge, which made a lot of sense for it to all come together.

Now I know its impossible to please everyone, some people are really going to like it, others will wish it was something else, but at the end of the day its really cool for us to see something like this finally come together especially after all the requests we received to make a mechaincal version of the Freestyle. It's been fun working on everything and I really like the new programming features, it makes my job a lot easier being able to see actual files.  Some of the features the Edge has will eventually carry over to the Adv2 (like NKRO, I believe), so that's cool too as an Adv2 user myself.

Oh whoa hi.

Have you considered producing ergodox style designs? I'm trying to convert people to ergodox but it's hard when it's such a large investment.
I typed this post on my Slanck. I also developed a stronger, cleaner, easier handwiring method.


Online MandrewDavis

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 15:27:13 »
I know the intended market won't really change caps but Kinesis went as far as pointing out how everything is almost standard sized but still didn't make them as such. At least they are black.

I get what they're trying to do but I feel like if you're into keyboards enough to go for split you can go for a good layout, like a let's split or an ergodox.

This is a product for the masses and when switching to an ergodox or anything ortholinear,  the difference in stagger is a big adjustment. Its a great layout with all the function keys and everything else in familiar spots. Even my mom didn't have a problem adjusting to the VE.A. 

The pricepoint is decent and it fills a market gap.

Offline natas206

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 15:58:44 »
Have you considered producing ergodox style designs? I'm trying to convert people to ergodox but it's hard when it's such a large investment.

I think ideally we would like to just split the Adv2 at some point and offer that as an option, maybe that will be the next project.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 18:28:37 »
I get what they're trying to do but I feel like if you're into keyboards enough to go for split you can go for a good layout, like a let's split or an ergodox.

Not really.  This is ideal for a number of people that want the split without the layout of an Ergodox.  I like the 'dox but, for me, it has several faults.  In that I'm really not the biggest fan of a symmetric matrix layout and similarly don't like the lack of dedicated F keys.  All I really want is an MS Ergo keyboard with some MX reds or hall effect switches. 

Kinesis already has a symmetric board so the Freestyle is covering the ergo-ANSI layout crowd that want something like a Matias Ergo Pro but with the 6 on the left side where it belongs ;)

Offline ski_

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 08 March 2017, 18:35:58 »
I think ideally we would like to just split the Adv2 at some point and offer that as an option, maybe that will be the next project.
This would be perfect.

Offline blighty

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 00:49:42 »
I know the intended market won't really change caps but Kinesis went as far as pointing out how everything is almost standard sized but still didn't make them as such. At least they are black.

I get what they're trying to do but I feel like if you're into keyboards enough to go for split you can go for a good layout, like a let's split or an ergodox.

This is a product for the masses and when switching to an ergodox or anything ortholinear,  the difference in stagger is a big adjustment. Its a great layout with all the function keys and everything else in familiar spots. Even my mom didn't have a problem adjusting to the VE.A. 

The pricepoint is decent and it fills a market gap.

I was hoping that the escape key would be split into 2 keys, but they seem to be in love with that 2u key.  Ah well, I am looking forward to this awesome bit of kit.  I was using ergo-ansi boards from '98 to 2012, when my ms ergo 4000 got too gross to read/type on.  I found geekhack while looking for a decent replacement for it.  Gone through god knows how many mechanical boards since then, but have always missed the rotated halves of ergo-ansi boards.  I thought the LZ ergo was going to be it for me, but I like the various options one has in setting up/ using the Freestyle Edge:

162409-0
 
When I used a freestyle 2 for a bit, I always ended up rotating the left side and keeping the right side "conventional" to maximize my right side space for random crap on my desk, mouse included.  With any luck, the build quality of the freestyle edge will be on par with, if not better than the freestyle 2, which was a great, solid-feeling board (even for a rubberdome). 

TLDR;  Is it July yet?   :))

Offline hoggy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 01:11:18 »
Looks like a great product.  Easy to adapt to for users coming from a standard keyboard and has plenty of adjust-ability.

I'm actually looking forward to recommending it to people.
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Online algernon

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 01:33:21 »
Have you considered producing ergodox style designs? I'm trying to convert people to ergodox but it's hard when it's such a large investment.

I think ideally we would like to just split the Adv2 at some point and offer that as an option, maybe that will be the next project.

Yes please.

Offline dantan

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 01:59:14 »
Have you considered producing ergodox style designs? I'm trying to convert people to ergodox but it's hard when it's such a large investment.

I think ideally we would like to just split the Adv2 at some point and offer that as an option, maybe that will be the next project.

Yes please.

They should have made split layout the first project, not the nth next.

Kinesis makes great keyboards but that big hump in the middle is unneeded and just takes up precious desk space.

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 09 March 2017, 12:04:16 »
The should also get rid of those inside curves in the wrist rest, looks out of place, when they have chamfers on the rest of their keyboard.

this is what happens when you got engineers doing the industrial art.. hahahhaha.. they make rookie mistakes.

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 12 March 2017, 17:14:42 »
Hrrmmmmmmmmm....


That left row of gaming keys.

That should not be there..


For a split keyboard where it'd be tented,  you want the left edge of your pinky keys to drop as low as possible to maintain wrist ergonomics.

They should put the extra game keys above the F-row.

Offline csmertx

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 12 March 2017, 18:34:22 »
Maybe a normal 1u Esc for v2? The first version looks pretty damn good though
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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 12 March 2017, 20:46:19 »
Another issue is.. since they're preserving the staggered qwerty rows,  they should make the spacebar Thicker like the matias ergopro.

for the left hand keys.. usually you approach them slightly at an angle,  so a spacebar which goes a little further in the -y direction would be easier to hit for the thumb.

Offline kasakka

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 13 March 2017, 08:03:57 »
That Fn key placement is pretty horrible. Hopefully it is also programmable. The huge esc key well away from the main keys is also a minus. Overall the device is too big and that seems to be only to fit the remap, macro etc keys.

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 13 March 2017, 16:09:36 »
That Fn key placement is pretty horrible. Hopefully it is also programmable. The huge esc key well away from the main keys is also a minus. Overall the device is too big and that seems to be only to fit the remap, macro etc keys.

Yea, for a split keyboard the fn keys definitely shouldn't go on the outside edge like that.

Offline natas206

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 13 March 2017, 16:42:54 »
That Fn key placement is pretty horrible.

How often do you use the Fn key while gaming though? But yeah, it's programmable so you can put it anywhere you'd like. You can also program it so that its a shifted-fn or a toggle, whichever you prefer.

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 13 March 2017, 16:47:51 »
That Fn key placement is pretty horrible.

How often do you use the Fn key while gaming though? But yeah, it's programmable so you can put it anywhere you'd like. You can also program it so that its a shifted-fn or a toggle, whichever you prefer.

that's not the point.

if you tent a keyboard, you want the left and right edge to be as low as possible to match up with your finger heights.


If the main keys are now shifted inwards,  then you need a second wrist rest to hold your hand up..


This is a huge mistake on their part.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 14 March 2017, 00:06:21 »
That Fn key placement is pretty horrible.

How often do you use the Fn key while gaming though? But yeah, it's programmable so you can put it anywhere you'd like. You can also program it so that its a shifted-fn or a toggle, whichever you prefer.

A reasonable amount since media keys are typically associated to Fn.  So long as I can map them to the left side keys, that pretty heavily eliminates my need for Fn keys altogether.

Offline possumgumbo

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 14 March 2017, 11:21:03 »
I loved my Freestyle 2 Blue, but my fingertips always hurt after extended use. I love the 2u escape key. Adding programmability to the blue was all I really wanted, but a mechanical version made me back this immediately.

I don't know how to spread this Kickstarter around. I put it up on my Facebook, but that seems to be all I can do so far. Good luck guys!

Also, if this campaign DOESN'T meet funding, the board's still getting made, right?



Offline davkol

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 14 March 2017, 12:25:45 »
Over 4/5 funded in a week, with over three weeks to go? I have no doubt money won't be the problem.

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 14 March 2017, 12:27:38 »
I loved my Freestyle 2 Blue, but my fingertips always hurt after extended use. I love the 2u escape key. Adding programmability to the blue was all I really wanted, but a mechanical version made me back this immediately.

I don't know how to spread this Kickstarter around. I put it up on my Facebook, but that seems to be all I can do so far. Good luck guys!

Also, if this campaign DOESN'T meet funding, the board's still getting made, right?


I don't think this is a better ergonomic solution than what's out today. given those misplaced left gaming keys.


Ergodox is the best out..  seconded by ergodoxez (needs holes drilled for higher tenting) ,  followed by ergo pro (needs holes drilled)


Offline natas206

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 14 March 2017, 17:02:39 »

I don't think this is a better ergonomic solution than what's out today. given those misplaced left gaming keys.


Ergodox is the best out..  seconded by ergodoxez (needs holes drilled for higher tenting) ,  followed by ergo pro (needs holes drilled)



Everyone has their own personal preferences, so obviously opinions will vary, but the "gaming keys" on the left are based on feedback from years of experience with the original Freestyle/Freestyle2 and other research, which can be useful to a lot of people. I use the Advantage2 myself, I believe it's the best ergonomic design based on my own personal needs, but whenever I use the Freestyle Edge (prototype) I use the gaming keys for my dozens of macros that help me navigate through the OS since I rarely ever use a mouse (macros like Alt+Tab, Shift+Tab, Ctrl+f, Ctrl+Shift+Esc, etc. etc.). I like having those keys there rather than having to create macros using a modifier key or replacing keys I may already want to use (or having to use the Fn key which is just adding another key press).   
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 March 2017, 17:04:27 by natas206 »

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 14 March 2017, 22:46:20 »
I loved my Freestyle 2 Blue, but my fingertips always hurt after extended use. I love the 2u escape key. Adding programmability to the blue was all I really wanted, but a mechanical version made me back this immediately.

I don't know how to spread this Kickstarter around. I put it up on my Facebook, but that seems to be all I can do so far. Good luck guys!

Also, if this campaign DOESN'T meet funding, the board's still getting made, right?


I don't think this is a better ergonomic solution than what's out today. given those misplaced left gaming keys.


Ergodox is the best out..  seconded by ergodoxez (needs holes drilled for higher tenting) ,  followed by ergo pro (needs holes drilled)



Depends on what you want out of an ergonomic solution.  The Ergodox is enough of a problem for me that I haven't bought one and don't really have much interest in buying one.  At a minimum, it needs another row of keys.  Even then, it's going to be a compromise in location for several right-hand non-alpha keys.  I can map them into something semi-decent but it's too much a layout compromise for me to want to spend that kind of money on it.
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 March 2017, 22:48:25 by Niomosy »

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 15 March 2017, 02:05:50 »

I don't think this is a better ergonomic solution than what's out today. given those misplaced left gaming keys.


Ergodox is the best out..  seconded by ergodoxez (needs holes drilled for higher tenting) ,  followed by ergo pro (needs holes drilled)



Everyone has their own personal preferences, so obviously opinions will vary, but the "gaming keys" on the left are based on feedback from years of experience with the original Freestyle/Freestyle2 and other research, which can be useful to a lot of people. I use the Advantage2 myself, I believe it's the best ergonomic design based on my own personal needs, but whenever I use the Freestyle Edge (prototype) I use the gaming keys for my dozens of macros that help me navigate through the OS since I rarely ever use a mouse (macros like Alt+Tab, Shift+Tab, Ctrl+f, Ctrl+Shift+Esc, etc. etc.). I like having those keys there rather than having to create macros using a modifier key or replacing keys I may already want to use (or having to use the Fn key which is just adding another key press).   

If the tenting angle shallow, It doesn't really matter that those keys are on the outside edge.


But if the tenting angle is Higher, suddenly those keys MUST go somewhere else..


So, as an engineer, you have a choice, make the solution that would work with all potential tenting angles, or put it somewhere which may be suboptimal for a range of higher angles.


This is not user preference or feedback issue,  this is a segment of use scenarios which you're not covering, that could be done at no compromise to cost or complexity.




Now, as far as angles go..  The neutral wrist angle while seated,  is approximately 70 degrees from the desk plane.. 

With the thick keys, you can get to ~55, while the thinner board can go higher..


The goal is ergonomics..    the wrist problem is the biggest issue surrounding long use discomfort..


So part 1, you're designing the product that covers the broader market/ use case "more angles"

PART 2, you also have to invest in some consumer education to wise them up to the better-ways to use your product,  higher angles..



Offline Niomosy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #33 on: Wed, 15 March 2017, 14:14:58 »

I don't think this is a better ergonomic solution than what's out today. given those misplaced left gaming keys.


Ergodox is the best out..  seconded by ergodoxez (needs holes drilled for higher tenting) ,  followed by ergo pro (needs holes drilled)



Everyone has their own personal preferences, so obviously opinions will vary, but the "gaming keys" on the left are based on feedback from years of experience with the original Freestyle/Freestyle2 and other research, which can be useful to a lot of people. I use the Advantage2 myself, I believe it's the best ergonomic design based on my own personal needs, but whenever I use the Freestyle Edge (prototype) I use the gaming keys for my dozens of macros that help me navigate through the OS since I rarely ever use a mouse (macros like Alt+Tab, Shift+Tab, Ctrl+f, Ctrl+Shift+Esc, etc. etc.). I like having those keys there rather than having to create macros using a modifier key or replacing keys I may already want to use (or having to use the Fn key which is just adding another key press).   

If the tenting angle shallow, It doesn't really matter that those keys are on the outside edge.


But if the tenting angle is Higher, suddenly those keys MUST go somewhere else..


So, as an engineer, you have a choice, make the solution that would work with all potential tenting angles, or put it somewhere which may be suboptimal for a range of higher angles.


This is not user preference or feedback issue,  this is a segment of use scenarios which you're not covering, that could be done at no compromise to cost or complexity.




Now, as far as angles go..  The neutral wrist angle while seated,  is approximately 70 degrees from the desk plane.. 

With the thick keys, you can get to ~55, while the thinner board can go higher..


The goal is ergonomics..    the wrist problem is the biggest issue surrounding long use discomfort..


So part 1, you're designing the product that covers the broader market/ use case "more angles"

PART 2, you also have to invest in some consumer education to wise them up to the better-ways to use your product,  higher angles..

I think you'd first have to make the argument that there's a good market for a gaming-focused keyboard that needs such high tenting.

What I'm wondering is why are you continuing to try to make this board into something it's not?  It seems to be targeting people that want some ergonomics without something as large a change as the Advantage/Maltron/Ergodox boards.  I understand that you want it to have higher tenting but that seems a tiny market segment in all honesty.  Hell, 90% or more of the Ergodox pictures I see are of people with no tenting.  You're pushing for adjustments that would cost them time to make and money to produce for zero commercial benefit.

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 15 March 2017, 16:29:33 »


I think you'd first have to make the argument that there's a good market for a gaming-focused keyboard that needs such high tenting.

What I'm wondering is why are you continuing to try to make this board into something it's not?  It seems to be targeting people that want some ergonomics without something as large a change as the Advantage/Maltron/Ergodox boards.  I understand that you want it to have higher tenting but that seems a tiny market segment in all honesty.  Hell, 90% or more of the Ergodox pictures I see are of people with no tenting.  You're pushing for adjustments that would cost them time to make and money to produce for zero commercial benefit.


Niomosy,  if this was 15 years ago.. You would be correct at least on your cost argument..

But we now have solidworks..   I kid you not the engineer can double click for a few hours.. and the chassis modifications are done..

The pcb stuff, also largely automated..


Assuming they don't have a design team of mainly interns,  the seasoned engi could bang out these minor modifications in 2 days tops....




As for market..   creating new markets is the primary element to market dominance..

Before Gaming light up mice,  there wasn't any..  so Some people went and made it, marketed it and NOW there they are..


This is the same for EVERY product that will ever eventually arise..




Using a flat keyboard is suboptimal..  we know this because people who USE KEYBOARDS ALOT coming from flat rectangles all end up with the same injuries and hand pains..

And we KNOW from field studies and tests that tented and split is the way to go for extended use..


Who this keyboard is designed for is secondary to the fact that it COULD BE BETTER @ very little cost,  WHILE that change would also NOT affect the market it could cover.

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 15 March 2017, 17:46:29 »
And more simply..

Those left side keys are a mistake, because of the natural symmetry of your hands.

Take a look, they're symmetrical..


So, what is the problem with those left keys.


At ALL tented angles, the placement of those gaming keys raise the z-value of the center qwerty keys, by pushing them slightly upwards.



So at shallow angles, the left hand is typing slightly higher than the right hand.


Now, at steeper angles,  the placement of the gaming keys pushes more on the z-axis rather than the x-axis.

So the more the tenting, the HIGHER the difference your left hand will be typing relative to your right..



ASSUMING a perfect orientation of the keyboard exists at x, y, z height.


NO MATTER WHAT , due to the asymmetrical design failure of this keyboard,   ONE of the sides of the keyboard will be at a mismatch...



So in conclusion,   This product is the result of poor engineering leadership where dispassionate managers failed to inspire deeper thinking... 

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #36 on: Wed, 15 March 2017, 18:10:03 »


I think you'd first have to make the argument that there's a good market for a gaming-focused keyboard that needs such high tenting.

What I'm wondering is why are you continuing to try to make this board into something it's not?  It seems to be targeting people that want some ergonomics without something as large a change as the Advantage/Maltron/Ergodox boards.  I understand that you want it to have higher tenting but that seems a tiny market segment in all honesty.  Hell, 90% or more of the Ergodox pictures I see are of people with no tenting.  You're pushing for adjustments that would cost them time to make and money to produce for zero commercial benefit.


Niomosy,  if this was 15 years ago.. You would be correct at least on your cost argument..

But we now have solidworks..   I kid you not the engineer can double click for a few hours.. and the chassis modifications are done..

The pcb stuff, also largely automated..


Assuming they don't have a design team of mainly interns,  the seasoned engi could bang out these minor modifications in 2 days tops....




As for market..   creating new markets is the primary element to market dominance..

Before Gaming light up mice,  there wasn't any..  so Some people went and made it, marketed it and NOW there they are..


This is the same for EVERY product that will ever eventually arise..




Using a flat keyboard is suboptimal..  we know this because people who USE KEYBOARDS ALOT coming from flat rectangles all end up with the same injuries and hand pains..

And we KNOW from field studies and tests that tented and split is the way to go for extended use..


Who this keyboard is designed for is secondary to the fact that it COULD BE BETTER @ very little cost,  WHILE that change would also NOT affect the market it could cover.


It could be better for some, possibly, but I question the costs being only minor.  Yes, from the engineering side it might be small and done easily enough via software.  My concern is more on the manufacturing side.  They've already produced at least one keyboard indicating tooling may already be in place for this keyboard as-is.  To re-tool at this point could cause the company to incur a fairly significant cost for a small company.  I'm not sure they would really want to go that route. 

As to creating new markets, sure, they can do that.  At this point it seems like it would need to be with another keyboard if they feel that's needed.  This keyboard appears to be locked up in terms of what they're going to have made.  This keyboard seems to have a defined niche and they've built the keyboard around that niche.

Offline MajorMajor

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 15 March 2017, 19:09:24 »
I'm still waiting on my Ultimate Hacking Keyboard!
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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #38 on: Thu, 16 March 2017, 07:45:09 »


It could be better for some, possibly, but I question the costs being only minor.  Yes, from the engineering side it might be small and done easily enough via software.  My concern is more on the manufacturing side.  They've already produced at least one keyboard indicating tooling may already be in place for this keyboard as-is.  To re-tool at this point could cause the company to incur a fairly significant cost for a small company.  I'm not sure they would really want to go that route. 

As to creating new markets, sure, they can do that.  At this point it seems like it would need to be with another keyboard if they feel that's needed.  This keyboard appears to be locked up in terms of what they're going to have made.  This keyboard seems to have a defined niche and they've built the keyboard around that niche.


Tooling is expensive yes..  but if they push this through, they're backing a limp noodle at this point.

The next corrected, split gaming keyboard, to the market will sweep them out.





Offline blighty

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #39 on: Thu, 16 March 2017, 15:05:29 »

It could be better for some, possibly, but I question the costs being only minor.  Yes, from the engineering side it might be small and done easily enough via software.  My concern is more on the manufacturing side.  They've already produced at least one keyboard indicating tooling may already be in place for this keyboard as-is.  To re-tool at this point could cause the company to incur a fairly significant cost for a small company.  I'm not sure they would really want to go that route. 

As to creating new markets, sure, they can do that.  At this point it seems like it would need to be with another keyboard if they feel that's needed.  This keyboard appears to be locked up in terms of what they're going to have made.  This keyboard seems to have a defined niche and they've built the keyboard around that niche.


Tooling is expensive yes..  but if they push this through, they're backing a limp noodle at this point.

The next corrected, split gaming keyboard, to the market will sweep them out.


Considering this board is being released under the "KinesisGaming" imprint, I would think that the primary target audience for this board is people who game (hence their marketingspeak and the various things that would/could appeal to 'gamers' , like being backlit, programmable, and having macro keys).  So, it's a gaming keyboard with a proven history of ergonomic usage.  To some people it may not be the best implementation, but it has all the things that I'd want to build a custom board for.  I rarely use the bells and whistles on customs, and probably won't be macroing it up, but it's nice to have the option. 

I probably say this in part because I have no love for the ergodox.   :p

Offline csmertx

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #40 on: Thu, 16 March 2017, 15:18:18 »
I noticed that this guy is not compatible with current Kinesis tenting stuff. Huh?
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Offline blighty

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #41 on: Thu, 16 March 2017, 15:27:24 »
I noticed that this guy is not compatible with current Kinesis tenting stuff. Huh?

Yah, It seems they redesigned the board just enough to push sales of new tenting equipment...


Offline Niomosy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 17 March 2017, 23:32:13 »


It could be better for some, possibly, but I question the costs being only minor.  Yes, from the engineering side it might be small and done easily enough via software.  My concern is more on the manufacturing side.  They've already produced at least one keyboard indicating tooling may already be in place for this keyboard as-is.  To re-tool at this point could cause the company to incur a fairly significant cost for a small company.  I'm not sure they would really want to go that route. 

As to creating new markets, sure, they can do that.  At this point it seems like it would need to be with another keyboard if they feel that's needed.  This keyboard appears to be locked up in terms of what they're going to have made.  This keyboard seems to have a defined niche and they've built the keyboard around that niche.


Tooling is expensive yes..  but if they push this through, they're backing a limp noodle at this point.

The next corrected, split gaming keyboard, to the market will sweep them out.


The thing is, those suggested changes are significant to a very small number of people.  The cost is likely not worth the effort in all honesty.  Sure, they might have what is technically a superior product but how many people will care about the difference?  Even with good marketing it's only going to be a small population that is concerned about it.

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #43 on: Fri, 17 March 2017, 23:52:59 »


It could be better for some, possibly, but I question the costs being only minor.  Yes, from the engineering side it might be small and done easily enough via software.  My concern is more on the manufacturing side.  They've already produced at least one keyboard indicating tooling may already be in place for this keyboard as-is.  To re-tool at this point could cause the company to incur a fairly significant cost for a small company.  I'm not sure they would really want to go that route. 

As to creating new markets, sure, they can do that.  At this point it seems like it would need to be with another keyboard if they feel that's needed.  This keyboard appears to be locked up in terms of what they're going to have made.  This keyboard seems to have a defined niche and they've built the keyboard around that niche.


Tooling is expensive yes..  but if they push this through, they're backing a limp noodle at this point.

The next corrected, split gaming keyboard, to the market will sweep them out.


The thing is, those suggested changes are significant to a very small number of people.  The cost is likely not worth the effort in all honesty.  Sure, they might have what is technically a superior product but how many people will care about the difference?  Even with good marketing it's only going to be a small population that is concerned about it.


Think about it this way..

It's an OBVIOUS improvement...


Should this keyboard prove to be remotely successful.. The very next company to iterate will have a superior product, then bam.. All your previous momentum was lost..


Competition also means out competing at every step..   2 steps ahead is better than 1

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #44 on: Sat, 18 March 2017, 01:02:16 »


It could be better for some, possibly, but I question the costs being only minor.  Yes, from the engineering side it might be small and done easily enough via software.  My concern is more on the manufacturing side.  They've already produced at least one keyboard indicating tooling may already be in place for this keyboard as-is.  To re-tool at this point could cause the company to incur a fairly significant cost for a small company.  I'm not sure they would really want to go that route. 

As to creating new markets, sure, they can do that.  At this point it seems like it would need to be with another keyboard if they feel that's needed.  This keyboard appears to be locked up in terms of what they're going to have made.  This keyboard seems to have a defined niche and they've built the keyboard around that niche.


Tooling is expensive yes..  but if they push this through, they're backing a limp noodle at this point.

The next corrected, split gaming keyboard, to the market will sweep them out.


The thing is, those suggested changes are significant to a very small number of people.  The cost is likely not worth the effort in all honesty.  Sure, they might have what is technically a superior product but how many people will care about the difference?  Even with good marketing it's only going to be a small population that is concerned about it.


Think about it this way..

It's an OBVIOUS improvement...


Should this keyboard prove to be remotely successful.. The very next company to iterate will have a superior product, then bam.. All your previous momentum was lost..


Competition also means out competing at every step..   2 steps ahead is better than 1


It's an obvious improvement to a very small number of people.  Even most mech users aren't going to be interested in said improvement as only a tiny portion of people are going to tent at such a high angle which includes those that specifically want a tented keyboard. 

2 steps ahead is nice but if you're one step ahead, you still win the race and, in this case, you're not really paid extra for winning by a larger margin.

Quite honestly, the board is fine as-is.  Anyone that really wants higher angle tenting can look elsewhere.

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #45 on: Sat, 18 March 2017, 01:33:23 »


It's an obvious improvement to a very small number of people.  Even most mech users aren't going to be interested in said improvement as only a tiny portion of people are going to tent at such a high angle which includes those that specifically want a tented keyboard. 

2 steps ahead is nice but if you're one step ahead, you still win the race and, in this case, you're not really paid extra for winning by a larger margin.

Quite honestly, the board is fine as-is.  Anyone that really wants higher angle tenting can look elsewhere.



That's an incorrect approach.

you DO NOT want anyone to look elsewhere.

You want to be the best, you want to be as broad as possible , as complete a package as is technologically possible.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #46 on: Sat, 18 March 2017, 03:12:16 »


It's an obvious improvement to a very small number of people.  Even most mech users aren't going to be interested in said improvement as only a tiny portion of people are going to tent at such a high angle which includes those that specifically want a tented keyboard. 

2 steps ahead is nice but if you're one step ahead, you still win the race and, in this case, you're not really paid extra for winning by a larger margin.

Quite honestly, the board is fine as-is.  Anyone that really wants higher angle tenting can look elsewhere.



That's an incorrect approach.

you DO NOT want anyone to look elsewhere.

You want to be the best, you want to be as broad as possible , as complete a package as is technologically possible.

Sure but the point is, the difference is insignificant to most people at best and outright pointless in most cases.  The difference is so minute that it simply doesn't matter to most people.  Only a small number of people are going to really be aware of ergonomic keyboards in the first place.  Of those people, a small number are actually going to be aware of tenting angles.  Of those, only a small number are going to care if this keyboard has a high enough tenting angle.

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #47 on: Sat, 18 March 2017, 05:19:14 »


It's an obvious improvement to a very small number of people.  Even most mech users aren't going to be interested in said improvement as only a tiny portion of people are going to tent at such a high angle which includes those that specifically want a tented keyboard. 

2 steps ahead is nice but if you're one step ahead, you still win the race and, in this case, you're not really paid extra for winning by a larger margin.

Quite honestly, the board is fine as-is.  Anyone that really wants higher angle tenting can look elsewhere.



That's an incorrect approach.

you DO NOT want anyone to look elsewhere.

You want to be the best, you want to be as broad as possible , as complete a package as is technologically possible.

Sure but the point is, the difference is insignificant to most people at best and outright pointless in most cases.  The difference is so minute that it simply doesn't matter to most people.  Only a small number of people are going to really be aware of ergonomic keyboards in the first place.  Of those people, a small number are actually going to be aware of tenting angles.  Of those, only a small number are going to care if this keyboard has a high enough tenting angle.



It's the same as not saving money for what you really want.


You end up wasting time and money on HALF measures...


Go all the way and be done with it.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #48 on: Sun, 19 March 2017, 23:49:43 »


It's an obvious improvement to a very small number of people.  Even most mech users aren't going to be interested in said improvement as only a tiny portion of people are going to tent at such a high angle which includes those that specifically want a tented keyboard. 

2 steps ahead is nice but if you're one step ahead, you still win the race and, in this case, you're not really paid extra for winning by a larger margin.

Quite honestly, the board is fine as-is.  Anyone that really wants higher angle tenting can look elsewhere.



That's an incorrect approach.

you DO NOT want anyone to look elsewhere.

You want to be the best, you want to be as broad as possible , as complete a package as is technologically possible.

Sure but the point is, the difference is insignificant to most people at best and outright pointless in most cases.  The difference is so minute that it simply doesn't matter to most people.  Only a small number of people are going to really be aware of ergonomic keyboards in the first place.  Of those people, a small number are actually going to be aware of tenting angles.  Of those, only a small number are going to care if this keyboard has a high enough tenting angle.



It's the same as not saving money for what you really want.


You end up wasting time and money on HALF measures...


Go all the way and be done with it.

Honestly, cutting those left-side keys out would turn the board into more a half measure than anything.  Those are specifically desired.  Look at the interest in the VE.A.  If those get trimmed, the board loses appeal.  Added tenting angles?  Might appear to a very few but nothing beyond that.

The board is already 100%.

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #49 on: Mon, 20 March 2017, 00:37:41 »

Honestly, cutting those left-side keys out would turn the board into more a half measure than anything.  Those are specifically desired.  Look at the interest in the VE.A.  If those get trimmed, the board loses appeal.  Added tenting angles?  Might appear to a very few but nothing beyond that.

The board is already 100%.


Which is why i never said to cut them out.. Put them somewhere else..

Offline dantan

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #50 on: Mon, 20 March 2017, 02:23:13 »

Honestly, cutting those left-side keys out would turn the board into more a half measure than anything.  Those are specifically desired.  Look at the interest in the VE.A.  If those get trimmed, the board loses appeal.  Added tenting angles?  Might appear to a very few but nothing beyond that.

The board is already 100%.


Which is why i never said to cut them out.. Put them somewhere else..

Left side keys are really useful to many keyboards. Maybe put them flush with other keys to reduce the distant the center keys are from the table?

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #51 on: Mon, 20 March 2017, 12:12:05 »

Honestly, cutting those left-side keys out would turn the board into more a half measure than anything.  Those are specifically desired.  Look at the interest in the VE.A.  If those get trimmed, the board loses appeal.  Added tenting angles?  Might appear to a very few but nothing beyond that.

The board is already 100%.


Which is why i never said to cut them out.. Put them somewhere else..

Left side keys are really useful to many keyboards. Maybe put them flush with other keys to reduce the distant the center keys are from the table?

top, inner edge, or bottom ,  all fine..

Just not the outside edge.

Offline possumgumbo

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #52 on: Mon, 20 March 2017, 16:21:26 »

[/quote]

top, inner edge, or bottom ,  all fine..

Just not the outside edge.
[/quote]

I actually really like them where they are. I have the bluetooth version of this board in rubberdome, and they are actually a great location for programmable keys.



Offline Niomosy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #53 on: Mon, 20 March 2017, 23:59:16 »

Honestly, cutting those left-side keys out would turn the board into more a half measure than anything.  Those are specifically desired.  Look at the interest in the VE.A.  If those get trimmed, the board loses appeal.  Added tenting angles?  Might appear to a very few but nothing beyond that.

The board is already 100%.


Which is why i never said to cut them out.. Put them somewhere else..

The left side is perfect for them.  When gaming, I'd only have my left hand on the keyboard anyway.  In such a case, I'd want those extra keys specifically left-hand accessible and easily so.  Above the F-row puts them out of quick gaming reach.  The left side is the most realistic spot for them unless you're going to disconnect them and put them off as a separate macro pad - which isn't necessarily a bad idea either but not something done here. 

Offline Nai_Calus

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #54 on: Mon, 03 April 2017, 07:18:49 »
So I've used a Freestyle2 as a test measure for this, and I own a Kinesis Essential and an Ergodox and have tried to use both of them for gaming as well.

Honestly? I hate thumb clusters for gaming. They are ass. Does it come up all the time that you'd need to hit ctrl, shift, and space at the same time? No, but it can(Especially if ctrl is your TS/Discord/Vent PTT key like a lot of people I know). I also hate the Ergodox's column stagger(In general, actually, but in particular for gaming). The Essential/Advantage layout with the curved handwell is better for the majority of hand positioning but still has thumb cluster irritation.

Honestly I just tilt my normal keyboard when I'm gaming and that works better than anything else for me except maybe switching to a Razer Orbweaver, but I don't have room on my desk for that and a keyboard and a mouse. But hey there's an issue with tilting a normal keyboard which is that y'know the right half gets hard to type on when you need it. Sure be nice if you could split the thing in half. Wait you can. :D

Seriously just being able to move the right half of the keyboard and tent the board a bit is a huge improvement that doesn't take a ton of relearning or irritation. The flexibilty is great without having to deal with stupid thumbclusters. Don't need this right now, want more room for my mouse, go away right half. Need both because I have to type, they're both there and tilted in different directions hey isn't this nice. Like, it just works without an adjustment period. (As someone with broad shoulders it's also a fix in and of itself, if I let my hands rest at a comfortable width on a fullsize my right hand is on the numberpad. Hell I can move it far enough right to slap my mouse in between and still be comfortable since most of what I play doesn't actually need a ton of mouse movement anyway.)

As to the left bank of keys, this is a common, extremely useful, and looked for feature for gaming(And life in general honestly if you have a board with them). Move that right half of the board key to where it's comfortable to reach. Assign that macro. Set it up to make targeting your team easier. Put that photoshop shortcut that you use all the time but it's four freaking awkward keys long on its own button and never worry about it again I'm looking at you save for web you know what you did bad shortcut no biscuit.

One also needs to keep in mind the demographic this is aimed at. No, it's not aggressively ergonomic like the Advantage. No, it's not as shiny and pretty as the VE.A kit. It's aimed at people who are looking for something more convenient and comfortable without straying too far from the known. Sure, it only takes a couple weeks max to get more or less up to speed with a new keyboard layout, but most gamers aren't going to accept that time period of being slowed down or are going to jump directly to a dedicated gaming pad. They're also generally not going to be willing to source and solder up a kit. The crossover between gamers and hardcore keyboard enthusiasts is not complete, as much as we'd all like it to be.

Same thing goes for the non-standard keys and unreplacable spacebars. I actually did advocate for going closer to standard, but again, your average user isn't going to be replacing their keys anyway and probably doesn't know they can. That's the one thing I'm sad about. :P

I dunno, like, I get why people are objecting in this thread to certain parts of it, but I like this thing and I'm excited about it. Besides, it could be a gateway drug for people to using more ergonomic things and even small improvements can have a big impact. What people won't use won't help them.

Also, reminder that you've only got four more days to back this. Do it for your collection if nothing else. ;)

Now someone figure out an ergonomic MMO mouse. The 3x4 grid on the side of my Naga isn't always comfortable for reaching all the buttons with my thumb...
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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #55 on: Mon, 03 April 2017, 07:32:19 »
I use the last 1x key on the bottom right on the Main-cluster for my spacebar when gaming.. 

You're doing it wrong.. hahahahaha



Tenting is still what matters most..    If you wasd alot,  the wrist gets serious damage from turning so deeply to meet a flat keyboard..   I see EVERY gamer rolling their keyboard wrist after long sessions..

Ever since I got the ergodox,   My wrist has absolutely no stress.



High tenting requires a low outer edge, as low as possible.  SO much so that it makes any outside edge keys beyond 1x space from main cluster quite useless..




Offline Niomosy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #56 on: Tue, 04 April 2017, 00:02:31 »
Ergodox for gaming, for me, wouldn't work.  F-keys or GTFO.  Bring out an Ergodox with a fixed thumb cluster and an F-row above the num-row and we can talk, though even then it's a sacrifice on the right-hand key locations, often throwing several of them into **** locations on the modifiers row along with the shift/ctrl/alt keys.  That's a pile of meh for a guy that uses those brackets and such on a regular basis.

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #57 on: Tue, 04 April 2017, 15:52:45 »
Ergodox for gaming, for me, wouldn't work.  F-keys or GTFO.  Bring out an Ergodox with a fixed thumb cluster and an F-row above the num-row and we can talk, though even then it's a sacrifice on the right-hand key locations, often throwing several of them into **** locations on the modifiers row along with the shift/ctrl/alt keys.  That's a pile of meh for a guy that uses those brackets and such on a regular basis.

hahaha..

so-newb..

I think f-keys would help rts , but who plays rts these days..

Lacking f-keys is the only drawback, but relative to demographic, it's not such a deficit..   but ur right, i think f keys would be more useful than not.


the thumb button is a non-issue, because the last 1x key on the main cluster can be used for jump.  it fits perfectly when you're on the wasd cluster.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #58 on: Tue, 04 April 2017, 22:40:09 »
Ergodox for gaming, for me, wouldn't work.  F-keys or GTFO.  Bring out an Ergodox with a fixed thumb cluster and an F-row above the num-row and we can talk, though even then it's a sacrifice on the right-hand key locations, often throwing several of them into **** locations on the modifiers row along with the shift/ctrl/alt keys.  That's a pile of meh for a guy that uses those brackets and such on a regular basis.

hahaha..

so-newb..

I think f-keys would help rts , but who plays rts these days..

Lacking f-keys is the only drawback, but relative to demographic, it's not such a deficit..   but ur right, i think f keys would be more useful than not.


the thumb button is a non-issue, because the last 1x key on the main cluster can be used for jump.  it fits perfectly when you're on the wasd cluster.

In terms of gaming, I more make use of the F keys for things like FPS that use them or something like WoW for a handful of things I simply don't want to put on Alt-<Letter> combos.  Outside of gaming, it's also an annoyance.  Personally, I wish one of the Axios revisions with the F-row above the num-row would have happened.  I'd have picked one up to at least try out.

The thumb cluster might work but I honestly don't know how much I want to deal with it.  I've never tremendously enjoyed thumb clusters much when I've used them.  That combined with having to remap the bracket keys to the inner vertical keys along with the lack of F-row results in a keyboard I don't see worth the investment.  Throw in the F-row like the Axios had for a bit and I'd consider it. 

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #59 on: Wed, 05 April 2017, 01:10:57 »

In terms of gaming, I more make use of the F keys for things like FPS that use them or something like WoW for a handful of things I simply don't want to put on Alt-<Letter> combos.  Outside of gaming, it's also an annoyance.  Personally, I wish one of the Axios revisions with the F-row above the num-row would have happened.  I'd have picked one up to at least try out.

The thumb cluster might work but I honestly don't know how much I want to deal with it.  I've never tremendously enjoyed thumb clusters much when I've used them.  That combined with having to remap the bracket keys to the inner vertical keys along with the lack of F-row results in a keyboard I don't see worth the investment.  Throw in the F-row like the Axios had for a bit and I'd consider it. 

Hahahaha..

Think about it this way..

CAN the ergodox get the job done.. with enough left hand keys..  Yes, it has enough keys for your left hand.


Can YOU adapt..  yes, with a good couple of games, you'd adapt to the new setup..



Does the Ergodox fix the MOST IMPORTANT keyboard problem related to gaming,  (Tenting).. Again YES..



There is absolutely NOTHING you couldn't work with using the ergodox, and it is superior in all the ways that matter, be it ergonomics or programmability.



The ergodox is a complete solution..


By remaining rigid with what YOU consider the norm is the same as being those kids who wouldn't try ice cream.

Offline cribbit

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #60 on: Wed, 05 April 2017, 12:35:46 »
Ergodoxen or a close variant are impossible to beat once you're used to typing on it (and they're pretty fast to learn). The only thing that standard QWERTY has going for it is that we're trained on it already. Otherwise it's terrible and illogical.
I typed this post on my Slanck. I also developed a stronger, cleaner, easier handwiring method.


Offline Niomosy

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #61 on: Wed, 05 April 2017, 16:42:59 »

In terms of gaming, I more make use of the F keys for things like FPS that use them or something like WoW for a handful of things I simply don't want to put on Alt-<Letter> combos.  Outside of gaming, it's also an annoyance.  Personally, I wish one of the Axios revisions with the F-row above the num-row would have happened.  I'd have picked one up to at least try out.

The thumb cluster might work but I honestly don't know how much I want to deal with it.  I've never tremendously enjoyed thumb clusters much when I've used them.  That combined with having to remap the bracket keys to the inner vertical keys along with the lack of F-row results in a keyboard I don't see worth the investment.  Throw in the F-row like the Axios had for a bit and I'd consider it. 

Hahahaha..

Think about it this way..

CAN the ergodox get the job done.. with enough left hand keys..  Yes, it has enough keys for your left hand.


Can YOU adapt..  yes, with a good couple of games, you'd adapt to the new setup..



Does the Ergodox fix the MOST IMPORTANT keyboard problem related to gaming,  (Tenting).. Again YES..



There is absolutely NOTHING you couldn't work with using the ergodox, and it is superior in all the ways that matter, be it ergonomics or programmability.



The ergodox is a complete solution..


By remaining rigid with what YOU consider the norm is the same as being those kids who wouldn't try ice cream.

It is a good solution that does a lot of things well but nothing great.

I'm glad you like it.  In its current form, it's not a keyboard I would likely buy. 

Online tp4tissue

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #62 on: Wed, 05 April 2017, 19:25:13 »
Ergodoxen or a close variant are impossible to beat once you're used to typing on it (and they're pretty fast to learn). The only thing that standard QWERTY has going for it is that we're trained on it already. Otherwise it's terrible and illogical.

it absolutely makes no sense to continue ansi flat...

But it's going to be the defacto for at least another 50 years.


As for qwerty,   that's going to stick for 100 years... there's absolutely no way to unseat qwerty before we achieve world peace first,   and everyone agree to start teaching kids something else on the getgo.

Offline Nai_Calus

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #63 on: Fri, 07 April 2017, 20:47:40 »
Congrats to Kinesis on the successful funding of the Freestyle Edge!

I hope everyone who backed it enjoys theirs. I hope the people who derailed this thread into flailing about the Ergodox have fun with their Ergodoxen.
- IBM 4704 Model F 107-key "Bertha"
Other boards: Kinesis Essential, Infinity(G.Clears), Ergodox(MX Blues), Monoprice 9433

Eternally searching for Celestial Blue BS V2 and blue/purple Bros.

Offline natas206

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #64 on: Fri, 19 May 2017, 12:03:28 »
If anyone wants to play around with the programming app, it's on our website for download here:
SmartSet App: https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/smartset-app-beta-download/

Feedback is welcome.

As some of you already know, the programming app is completely optional since the Freestyle Edge does have on-board programming features as well, very similar to the Advantage2 keyboard, and also the ability to view/edit layout files stored on the keyboard. So that makes three different ways to program the keyboard. The app is intended to make this process a little easier for some users. 

Note for current/future Advantage2 users: once we are finished up with the Freestyle Edge shortly, we will then finalize and release an app for the Adv2, which will be available for download on the Advantage2 Resource page. The app will look very similar to the Freestyle Edge app. Once it's available, you can download the app directly to the v-drive on the Adv2 keyboard and it can live there, meaning you can run it directly from the keyboard without needing to install it on your computer.

« Last Edit: Fri, 19 May 2017, 12:05:04 by natas206 »

Offline Snarfangel

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #65 on: Tue, 30 May 2017, 09:13:27 »
Note for current/future Advantage2 users: once we are finished up with the Freestyle Edge shortly, we will then finalize and release an app for the Adv2, which will be available for download on the Advantage2 Resource page. The app will look very similar to the Freestyle Edge app. Once it's available, you can download the app directly to the v-drive on the Adv2 keyboard and it can live there, meaning you can run it directly from the keyboard without needing to install it on your computer.



As a current (and happy) user of the Advantage2, this is awesome news! I look forward to trying it out.

Offline DesktopJinx

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #66 on: Thu, 24 August 2017, 16:08:11 »
I missed the Kickstarter. How long until this keyboard is a buyable shippable product?
M15 for life

Offline batfink

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #67 on: Fri, 25 August 2017, 05:25:08 »
It looks interesting, but I am wondering about that split space bar. I assume the two halves of the spacebar would be independently programmable to different functions, otherwise it would be very silly indeed.

Since the split design requires jettisoning the standard spacebar size, there is an opportunity to shrink the space bars down to 2 key-widths, like the Ergo Pro. The Ergo Pro is the gold standard in space bar design, others should learn from it. Bit of a wasted opportunity there, but otherwise looks pretty good.


Offline Nai_Calus

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #68 on: Thu, 14 September 2017, 15:01:53 »
Got my FS Edge today. Love it. Here's an imgur album of unboxing it:

https://imgur.com/a/84FAN
- IBM 4704 Model F 107-key "Bertha"
Other boards: Kinesis Essential, Infinity(G.Clears), Ergodox(MX Blues), Monoprice 9433

Eternally searching for Celestial Blue BS V2 and blue/purple Bros.

Offline natas206

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #69 on: Fri, 15 September 2017, 11:06:38 »
Got my FS Edge today. Love it. Here's an imgur album of unboxing it:

https://imgur.com/a/84FAN

Awesome! Good pictures. I really like the packaging as well, turned out better than I imagined.

We've been shipping out the first production units all week to the original Kickstarter backers. It's been crazy here getting them out in time so I'm glad to see them starting to arrive to customers!

Let us know if you have any feature requests, come across any kind of bugs, etc. or just want to provide general feedback. We're constantly working on improving the firmware. The optional programming app will be available for other operating systems as well soon (Mac, Linux) but of course you can use either the on-board programming features or edit the text layout files as well.

Btw, I went to PAX West in Seattle a couple weeks ago where we had a booth showcasing the Freestyle Edge and the feedback was absolutely amazing. It was our first gaming conference obviously so we weren't really sure how people would react to our new split keyboard but we were blown away with how positive everyone was. 

Offline NamelessPFG

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Re: Kinesis Freestyle Edge - mechanical Freestyle on kickstarter
« Reply #70 on: Wed, 20 September 2017, 01:14:45 »
I got mine recently, too!
https://s26.postimg.org/mv7m9ffxl/Freestyle_Edge_just_arrived.jpg

First impressions are pretty good so far in terms of build quality and key texture, though my desk area is gonna need some work as I experiment with ideal ergonomic placement for it. The original plan was to have it flanking my Cintiq above the keyboard tray, but keeping my arms elevated like that is not even remotely comfortable in the long term.

However, being able to space it out wide and tuck 'em inwards a bit (like Microsoft's attempts at ergonomic boards) does wonders for comfort. I just don't have a lift kit yet, for obvious reasons (Kinesis isn't shipping them out yet).

The profile I whipped up with the SmartSet beta app linked above still works on the production board, thankfully, which saves me a lot of time tweaking the layout. However, it took me a while to realize that the media keys don't work with the V-drive mounted for some reason, only when unmounted. Regardless, it's the sort of programming software that peripheral manufacturers everywhere need to take pages from - plenty functional and versatile (you can even map keys F13 through F24!), efficient enough to fit on a 4 MB V-drive with room to spare, technically not required (the profiles are plain text files denoting the differences from factory mappings, so if you know the codes and syntax, you can edit them by hand), and no need for an Internet connection for whatever dumb reason.

There is only one setback I can think of right now: even after dialing down the brightness to 1, the Freestyle Edge looks rather bright in a dark room, with a sorta flickery, distracting feeling in my peripheral vision to boot. At least there's a key to turn it all off when undesired, with a second keypress bringing it all back quickly.

Oh, and if you're wondering what's with that extra cable I received, it's an extended-length linking cable, suitable for my plans to run the linking cable under the seat of a chair with room to spare for a cleaner cockpit-style setup. (If you're familiar with Elite: Dangerous, look down, and you'll have the general idea I'm going for with those control panels over the pilot's legs.) Kinesis thankfully uses internal JST connectors instead of forcing me to warm up the soldering iron for such a cable swap, so it should be pretty trivial to swap in whenever I'm feeling up to it.