Author Topic: Input device(s) placement question  (Read 8039 times)

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Offline dusanx

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Input device(s) placement question
« on: Thu, 30 November 2017, 15:15:49 »
I have spent years of effort to reach the point where I know exactly what kind of keyboard works for me. First it was Kinesis Advantage but now I am mostly using Ergodox EZ. Kinesis has almost perfect layout (curved bowls are great) but I'd love it to be 'with more gap' and that's where ergodox works well. So fine I am having both keyboard halves at shoulder width because that causes least pain when working. While I was using Advantage I wished there is more space between halves but my Kensington trackball was closer to the 'natural' position. Keyboard was causing some pain but trackball did not. Now that I have Ergodox positioned perfectly, my trackball is bit too much to the right, causing pain.

I tried ton of things that didn't work:

- Placing trackball in the middle
- Using apple touchpad in the middle or on the right
- Using mouse emulation keys on ergodox (one of the best emulations I have ever seen but not perfect and not really usable for fine work)

I think I tried any possible combination but I haven't got any smarter.

Is there any smart solution that I missed, that would allow for perfect placement of all input elements? I know I am trying to place two different elements (right keyboard half and pointing device) in one 'perfect' spot but I hope somebody solved this already.

Please tell me what you did especially if you have similar problem with something that looks like solution. Images and explanations welcome. Thanks.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 01 December 2017, 08:46:20 »
Tenting makes trackball placement difficult. I had great success with center mounting my trackball but it involved a lot of modifications to the switches to make it feel right.

Offline dusanx

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 01 December 2017, 11:40:44 »
Do you mean trackball tent or keyboard tent complicates placement? I can modify (flatten) keyboard halves but they are already at the same height as trackball. I did try different angles and current tenting creates least pain.

Offline Malachor

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 01 December 2017, 20:09:50 »
This is probably a silly idea:
Cut out the section in the desk where you have the righthand ergodox sitting, but make it big enough to fit both that and the track pad.
Using the piece cut out, attach both devices, one on each side, then develop a pivoting mechanism so you can flip to the device you want to use.
Alternatively, and this I just though of so I have no idea if this is even possible, let alone useful, use a head tracking device to move the cursor and use the mouse key layer on the ergodox for the mouse buttons. Hmm, maybe for large movements, perhaps not for fine control though.

Offline dusanx

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #4 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 01:39:01 »
No idea it too silly, believe me, I even considered mycestro[url] at one moment...

Offline Phenix

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #5 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 07:38:02 »
Tenting makes trackball placement difficult. I had great success with center mounting my trackball but it involved a lot of modifications to the switches to make it feel right.

Now would you design implement them now? Which switches would you use?

Iirc you used Seimitsu arcade buttons in your first iteration?
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #6 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 07:56:18 »
Do you mean trackball tent or keyboard tent complicates placement? I can modify (flatten) keyboard halves but they are already at the same height as trackball. I did try different angles and current tenting creates least pain.

Disclamer: Just because the designs I developed work for me, I don't claim that they are the solution for anyone else. The best way to determine your best choice is by trying out various boards or mocking up your own design.

This is an example of a tented trackball. Because the keyboard is flat, it was quite easy to fit a trackball into a position that is close and also easy to slide hand laterally to reach it.
183363-0

This is my ErgoDox tray solution. As much as I liked the right side trackball location, I moved it to the center because following the right tenting angle plane would have made the trackball way too low and raising the trackball while maintaining the angle would have created an unacceptable sawtooth effect. The center TB placement gave the added benefit of separating the keyboard halves to a desirable position without resorting to the TB being far to the right. The placement of the TB switches (the arcade buttons) put them within easy thumb reach while using the TB at a comfortable 40º wrist position.
183365-1183371-2

My first fully custom attempt kept the same center TB placement. I was happy with many of its features but it was designed as a portable keyboard and its high tenting angle made it too bulky. Also, the smaller ball was too much of a compromise after being spoiled by the Slimblade.
183367-3

I still use this one daily although it has a minimal 8º tent. Although it was meant to be a portable, I just can't tear it away from my desk. It is an almost perfect solution for my keyboard comfort needs.
183369-4

Summary

 Everybody has their own unique needs but there are some design considerations I tried to address which were important for me:
1) I found that reducing ulnar deviation was the most important objective I needed to address. Splaying the keyboard halves solved that problem. I found that the closer the halves are, the greater the splay angle required.
2) My wrists are very sensitive to hyperextension. Using a tray allows the keyboard to be lower than tabletop height and the tray mechanism allows negative tilting. These are also critical features for me.
3) The center placement of the trackball works well for me because the TB switch placement allows my wrist to avoid any uncomfortable pronation. The center placement also allows not only ambidextrous usage but also simultaneous use  which is handy with precise clicking without moving the ball.
4)A little keyboard tenting goes a long way. I think 15º-25º is a good range but as little as 5º-10º is still a major improvement.
5) I like substandard key throw (3mm) and spacing (<.75") for more efficient typing but don't find the switch feel to be especially important for comfort (some would disagree with this point)
6) I have super-padded armrests on my chair which I use when typing. They are another indispensable part of my ergo workstation.

I hope this helps.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 08:04:50 »
Tenting makes trackball placement difficult. I had great success with center mounting my trackball but it involved a lot of modifications to the switches to make it feel right.

Now would you design implement them now? Which switches would you use?

Iirc you used Seimitsu arcade buttons in your first iteration?

The location of the arcade buttons I used to modify the TB switches is the critical aspect. I found that the upper buttons on both the Slimblade and the Expert Mouse hard to use. By having all of the buttons below the ball, my hand is tilted in a comfortable position while keeping all the switches within easy thumb reach.

Offline Phenix

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 10:38:19 »
Tenting makes trackball placement difficult. I had great success with center mounting my trackball but it involved a lot of modifications to the switches to make it feel right.

Now would you design implement them now? Which switches would you use?

Iirc you used Seimitsu arcade buttons in your first iteration?

The location of the arcade buttons I used to modify the TB switches is the critical aspect. I found that the upper buttons on both the Slimblade and the Expert Mouse hard to use. By having all of the buttons below the ball, my hand is tilted in a comfortable position while keeping all the switches within easy thumb reach.


Thanks. Two questions left for me: which srcade buttons do you use/used? Read good things about Seimitsu and gamerfinger, not so so good about the Santa’s

Which TB do you prefer in the end? Do you still lean towards the slimblade and why?
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Offline tp4tissue

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 11:22:19 »
A major hurdle for me on the Ergodox Journey, has been that I viewed my Body as a static object, to build the interface around it.

This was an incorrect approach.

The body doesn't actually even likes to remain static.

Parts like to move,  other parts like to stay still..




My solution in its current form is a standing desk + custom ergopwn 9000 (in my signature) mouse between the two ergodox halves

My ergodoci are tented to 55Degrees. ~150mm m3 screw legs below the center thumbcluster hole.



I went from seated to leaning back, to leaning forward, to laying down,  finally, I've stood on my own two legs, like a human being.






Offline Phenix

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 12:03:33 »
A major hurdle for me on the Ergodox Journey, has been that I viewed my Body as a static object, to build the interface around it.

This was an incorrect approach.

The body doesn't actually even likes to remain static.

Parts like to move,  other parts like to stay still..




My solution in its current form is a standing desk + custom ergopwn 9000 (in my signature) mouse between the two ergodox halves

My ergodoci are tented to 55Degrees. ~150mm m3 screw legs below the center thumbcluster hole.



I went from seated to leaning back, to leaning forward, to laying down,  finally, I've stood on my own two legs, like a human being.


Please share a pic :thumbs:
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 02 December 2017, 12:50:36 »

Thanks. Two questions left for me: which srcade buttons do you use/used? Read good things about Seimitsu and gamerfinger, not so so good about the Santa’s

Which TB do you prefer in the end? Do you still lean towards the slimblade and why?
I have used Sanwa arcade switches exclusively. Not for any reason except that they worked and that what I bought from the beginning. Funny thing is, I’ve never actually used the switch itself—only the housing. The first ErgoDox board originally was to have an Expert Mouse. The switches for it required DPDT switches so I hacked together the EM switches into the Sanwa housings. When I finally decided to use the Slimblade (which didn’t need DPDT switches), I could have used the original switches but had already done the mod and the switches felt better anyways. With the Alumaplop, the switch depth would have force the case to be thicker so I added ML’s to the Sanwa housing (a very easy mod), cutting 1/4”+ off the height.

The Slimblade is still my favorite for several reasons. The internal works makes it easy to fit it in a compact space; not so with the Expert Mouse and all the other large ball trackballs. I’ve found it reliable and intuitively easy to use. I love how they implemented the scrolling feature. The only weakness I’ve found is the native switch operation which I don’t care about since I wouldn’t use one in its stock form.

If your interested, I can post pic’s of the modified Sanwas.

Offline dusanx

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 04:12:08 »
First pic with kensington on the side looks extremely good, some five years ago I would definitely go with something like that. However it is more suited for smaller keyboards, like in the pic. Since I mostly get pain from lateral movements (to the side), I am studying other pictures with trackball in the middle. It makes sense that trackball needs to be raised to keyboard level, which is something I didn't try when I tried trackball in the middle.

Some very good advises so far, including the one that halve tilt should decrease with distance, I haven't considered that.

I even tried rotating trackball 90 degrees counterclockwise, which can be done on FreeBSD. Slope then drops to the right which seems ideal. It was almost perfect except that kensington (at least mine) has problem when rotated 90 degrees -- pressing back button (top left when normal) posing as primary mouse button when rotated, blocks scroll ring from rotating well. Maybe just mine trackball but you can try rotating it 90 degrees CCW and pressing button while rotating ring. Crazy.

I think I'll try with trackball in the middle, raised to the level of the keys on sloped ergodox first.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 04:44:32 »
It makes sense that trackball needs to be raised to keyboard level, which is something I didn't try when I tried trackball in the middle.

I think I'll try with trackball in the middle, raised to the level of the keys on sloped ergodox first.

With the trackball centered you may find that all the button spots are not ideally located. Short of tearing the trackball apart to modify switches like I did, you might be able to use a couple of switches on the ErgoDox for mouse functions.

Offline Phenix

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #14 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 05:01:28 »
It makes sense that trackball needs to be raised to keyboard level, which is something I didn't try when I tried trackball in the middle.

I think I'll try with trackball in the middle, raised to the level of the keys on sloped ergodox first.

With the trackball centered you may find that all the button spots are not ideally located. Short of tearing the trackball apart to modify switches like I did, you might be able to use a couple of switches on the ErgoDox for mouse functions.


BTW: why did you not used MX switches for mouse buttons?
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #15 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 05:29:05 »

BTW: why did you not used MX switches for mouse buttons?

Good question, Phenix (btw, you frequently have very good questions). Originally, I got the idea to use arcade buttons from the Kinesis Advantage palm button mods done many years ago by Sordna and Input Nirvana. I honestly didn't think there was an alternative back then. :-[  In retrospect, it turned out to be a good decision. ;D  The round buttons lend themselves to omni-angular lateral thumb taps. A traditional keycap would best be oriented specific to left or right hand use, degrading its ambidextrous functionality.

The round aspect can be a design blessing or a curse depending on space and location. The round form takes up more space even in the smaller 22mm switches I use. Countering that is its non-specific angle orientation. With my complete lack of experience with arcade games, I was surprised when people first asked about my choice to use arcade switches. "Arcade switches? What are they?"

Offline kurplop

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #16 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 05:43:24 »
dusanx,
I noticed your desk has a curved cutout in the front. I have made and used a few desks with curved fronts; do you like yours? Have you noticed any specific functional advantages to the design?
I made mine to lend to the natural curve of multiple monitors but was surprised to find less practical benefit than I expected beyond that.



Offline dusanx

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #17 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 05:47:06 »
Short of tearing the trackball apart to modify switches like I did, you might be able to use a couple of switches on the ErgoDox for mouse functions.

I do have couple of unused keys if I understand you right, may be the solution. Ergodox mouse emulation on its own is damn good, just not perfect, but I never considered using ball for movements and keyboard for scrolling/clicking. I think you have good idea here.

Wish my skills in ripping things apart are better but I should be able to think of some duct tape solution quickly. Hmm then ball can be right above right thumb cluster, as close to the keys as possible. Closer the better I think.

Offline kurplop

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #18 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 05:51:43 »
Don't rule out using the upper thumb switches on either side. They are a little hard to reach from home position but may be ideally located for the trackball.

Offline dusanx

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #19 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 06:00:53 »
dusanx,
I noticed your desk has a curved cutout in the front. I have made and used a few desks with curved fronts; do you like yours? Have you noticed any specific functional advantages to the design?
I made mine to lend to the natural curve of multiple monitors but was surprised to find less practical benefit than I expected beyond that.

I am fairly old guy with significant belly curve, so the table curve almost fits me perfectly lol. Reason for having it is that I usually don't use chair hand rests, they are there but too low for any use. With desk cutout I am using outer sides as very good hand rests. Trick with the cutout is that it has to be fairly narrow so the rest of the desk works as hand support instead of being design feature but less usable.

Desk is made from my drawings btw, cables are hidden below monitor sitting part of the desk and keyboard rest has 7 degrees slope, inspired by https://www.hermanmiller.com/products/workspaces/desks/envelop-desk/

Offline kurplop

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #20 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 06:06:22 »
Thanks great. I'm all for making your environment work for you!

Offline Phenix

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #21 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 07:44:36 »
Don't rule out using the upper thumb switches on either side. They are a little hard to reach from home position but may be ideally located for the trackball.


Thanks for the kind words.
I was looking up arcade buttons and was kinda.. distracted.. with them starting at $3 per switch (doing some math for my Kinesis mod project (included trackball) somewhat $50 in switches is fine but still unexspected..)
Gamerfingers are in fact MX switches in a Arcade button enclosing @$6 :lol:

Got a Magic Trackpad meanwhile as it was cheap, experimenting with it right now. If that works out I don’t have to hacksaw my Kinesis that hard..

Did you tried out a Rollermouse in the past? I like the interaction with it.


Kurplop, if you ever feel like downsizing your collection let me know, if it’s feasible I’m up for buying something made by you..
Kustom would get a real meaning then, beside expensive high-end keyboards with flawed layouts. :)

OT
Does someone has a pic of Input Nirvanas Kinesis in its latest configuration?
I asked him a few weeks ago if he could post some pics of his setup as of now but didn’t got a answer..
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Offline kurplop

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #22 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 11:04:18 »
I saw those Gamefingers switches. They are probably a nice way to go if you don't want the loosey goosey arcade feel. I think the cost of all of the arcade buttons has a lot to do with the limited number one would normally buy. If you weren't 7,000 miles away, I'd give you some from my stock.

I toyed around with the Trackpad idea. It would be nice to use the gestures since I use Apple products primarily. My fingers are very unpredictable with them though. Sometimes they are heavily calloused and don't register with the capacitive surface. Also, in spite of two Carpel tunnel release procedures, I still have enough numbness in my fingers to not have the sensitivity to always know when I'm actually touching the screen. One other thing: If it is center mounted I would be tempted to try to mount it diagonally, like a diamond, to reduce ulnar deviation.

I'm not sure of IN has made any changes to his Advantage for some time. He occasionally visits the site but not the way he did during his reign of terror. I miss his contributions.

When my business slows down I might just make some customs for people for the fun of it. Right now I have my hands full though. I'm honored that you'd be interested.

Offline Phenix

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #23 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 11:39:56 »
I saw those Gamefingers switches. They are probably a nice way to go if you don't want the loosey goosey arcade feel. I think the cost of all of the arcade buttons has a lot to do with the limited number one would normally buy. If you weren't 7,000 miles away, I'd give you some from my stock.

I toyed around with the Trackpad idea. It would be nice to use the gestures since I use Apple products primarily. My fingers are very unpredictable with them though. Sometimes they are heavily calloused and don't register with the capacitive surface. Also, in spite of two Carpel tunnel release procedures, I still have enough numbness in my fingers to not have the sensitivity to always know when I'm actually touching the screen. One other thing: If it is center mounted I would be tempted to try to mount it diagonally, like a diamond, to reduce ulnar deviation.

I'm not sure of IN has made any changes to his Advantage for some time. He occasionally visits the site but not the way he did during his reign of terror. I miss his contributions.

When my business slows down I might just make some customs for people for the fun of it. Right now I have my hands full though. I'm honored that you'd be interested.
Sure, the low volume sells make up for the cost mostly: a "standard" arcade system has somewhat 8 buttons + 2 small buttons vs a standard keyboard has 104 (in this community rather 86/ TKL)

magic trackpads are awesome on a mac: on windows they are still good - lets see if i can mod multitouch in them..

may i ask where you bought your arcade buttons? beside the cheap-ones ($2 in china, so not worthwile) and local arcade shops (regular prices, 3-6$) i couldnt find any "cheap" source or mass discount (my general attitude is to buy multiples to use later)  -  if you want to sell me 6 or more had be kind of you:however shipping across the pond is somewhat inefficient.


how would you teach the pc to recognize the trackpad as tilted?
Also likely the bezel might be a error..
on the upside one doesnt has to drill a hole for the trackpad so testing various positions is quite easy


let me know once you start your sell..
if i were good in CAD I would think about running a GB for a Planet 6-style custom - as I am not able to design pcbs it had be hard to gain participants tough.


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Offline kurplop

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 14:40:44 »
I wouldn’t change the way the computer recognizes the actions. I don’t think it would be hard to train the brain to see the upper left side (if you’re right handed) as up, especially if your arm is coming from the bottom right direction. On a center mount trackpad, your arm would be naturally angled almost that much.

Offline Phenix

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Re: Input device(s) placement question
« Reply #25 on: Sun, 03 December 2017, 17:10:12 »
will try that out once I can actually use my Kinesis on my Windows machine (so once my QMK mod is fnished)
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