wii or xbox?

[wellington1869]

a friend of mine is trying to decide between the two.  
-both will play netflix movies (which he wants)
-does xbox have motion controllers yet?

he's not a hardcore gamer, but likely would buy a few for fun.  Any opinions?

[instantkamera]

Im going to play arsehole and say PS3. I stopped playing my Wii after getting a "proper" console. And I refuse to give MS my money (other people may not have that hangup).

[wellington1869]

Im going to play arsehole and say PS3. I stopped playing my Wii after getting a "proper" console. And I refuse to give MS my money (other people may not have that hangup).

ok but -
-- does ps3 connect to netflix account for live streaming to tv?  I believe wii and xbox both do.
--since he's not a hardcore gamer he'll likely be more interested in the larger variety of games wii and xbox offer

[phillip]

my 360 sees the least amount of use, although i rarely use any of my consoles.  the 360 does have a new motion controller system called the kinect or something but it uses your whole body via cameras or something like that and i believe it's limited to 2 people max.  i could be wrong though because i don't really give a **** about motion controls.

edit: yes, the ps3 also has netflix

[firestorm]

I'm not much of a gamer these days, and much more of a family man, so all we have is a Wii.  It's "neat" that it can stream Netflix, but you do have to insert the Netflix disc each and every time.  The Wii-motes are somewhat of a pain for movie playback as well.  After sitting idle for a while, they go to sleep.  To take pause to take a piss, you have to wave the remote around like an idiot to wake it up (you can probably press a button too, I don't remember, but that doesn't convey funny-ish imagery.)  

Personally, I would much rather get a Netflix enabled BluRay player.  I'm not sure what short comings the Xbox might have.  I'm far from a fan of the PS3, and would rather have an XBox, BUT the PS3 is an OK BluRay player, it *can* stream Netflix, and you can get a proper Bluetooth movie remote for it.

[wellington1869]

It's "neat" that it can stream Netflix, but you do have to insert the Netflix disc each and every time.  The Wii-motes are somewhat of a pain for movie playback as well.  

thats good to know thanks for the deets
since he's not really a gamer i'm actually suggesting to him to maybe just pick up that $100 box that netflix sells for live streaming to the TV.

Personally, I would much rather get a Netflix enabled BluRay player.  

another interesting option...

I'm not sure what short comings the Xbox might have.  I'm far from a fan of the PS3, and would rather have an XBox, BUT the PS3 is an OK BluRay player, it *can* stream Netflix, and you can get a proper Bluetooth movie remote for it.

all my friends have either the ps3 or xbox and i'm not a big fan either. On most of the games on the xbox, for instance, i merely get motion sickness, lol.
I'd much rather game on a PC.
The wii is fun, i have to admit, though I also think i'd get bored of it after a while and it would sooner or later sit in the corner unused like so many other appliances in the house.
I played guitar hero on xbox once and i have to say, since i play a real guitar, i didnt find it fun. All it is is a somewhat more complicated version of 'simon'.

One thing about xbox tho that does look promising to me is the new controllers for guitar hero where you can press on any fret and any string -- seems like a potentially very good teaching tool.  Same with keyboards if you can hook up a real midi keyboard to it, which apparently is a feature that is going to be implemented sooner or later. Would be a great teaching tool for piano.

But thats a very specialized reason to get these devices and all those things arent even out yet. (he plays the guitar too, so thats a consideration, but who knows when these controllers will come out).

[phillip]

Personally, I would much rather get a Netflix enabled BluRay player.  I'm not sure what short comings the Xbox might have.  I'm far from a fan of the PS3, and would rather have an XBox, BUT the PS3 is an OK BluRay player, it *can* stream Netflix, and you can get a proper Bluetooth movie remote for it.

um the ps3 is a more than capable bluray player, it's just as good as any other player in it's price range (if not better) and has the added benefit of using it as a media server.

[instantkamera]

Wii has some seriously fun games (musicians I know like Wii Music better that the rock/hero games due to the sheer amount of MUSICAL options it gives you), but the wii doesnt even play back standard DVDs, which I find a bit silly. It also looks like **** on an HDTV, which are becoming the norm.

THe PS3 IS a damn fine bluray player, has no shortage of games (yes there are games xbox has that ps3 doesnt, but also vice versa.), and it's media capabilities arent terrible either (some would argue xbox has it beat, but it's trivial to setup a upnp server that can automatically transcode to the "optimal" ps3 settings on the fly, from any media type).

Be careful WHICH XBOX you buy if you get one. The cheapy (my brother in-law bought) doesn't even have built-in wifi. Don't know if they have changed this. The only diff in PS3 specs last I checked was HDD size.

[instantkamera]

yes, that is certainly a fault, but for someone new to the console landscape (me - havent owned anything since 16bit days) it is acceptable. If I wanted to also play the ps2 back-cat, I would buy a ps2 for like 10 bucks.

[wellington1869]

well he's definitely new to consoles and he's definitely not a hard core gamer. The gaming part of this is just an 'add on' with his main interest being streaming netflix.  Pretty sure he's leaning towards the wii, i think thats also the only one he's had previous experience with.

I told him that the netflix CD needs to be in there and that it wont play DVDs.

[wellington1869]

Wii has some seriously fun games (musicians I know like Wii Music better that the rock/hero games due to the sheer amount of MUSICAL options it gives you)

what kind of musical options are you thinking of? Can you plug MIDI devices into it?

For myself I'd seriously consider the xbox once they come out with that true guitar controller. some info on that from my friend (another friend's) blog

The below, btw, is a midi guitar (!) that doubles as a rock band controller: check out how every position on every fret is a switch.

fs=1&hl=en_US">

[wellington1869]

What about the new Apple TV?

does it stream netflix?  I'm prolly not the right guy to push apple products anyway tho

[instantkamera]

what kind of musical options are you thinking of? Can you plug MIDI devices into it?

For myself I'd seriously consider the xbox once they come out with that true guitar controller.

No nothing that crazy. I meant that the gameplay is better as, instead of being a musical instrument mock-up of DDR, it actually lets you play around with the songs, change tempo, insert different instruments etc etc. It's far more creative than "buttonbuttonbutton buttonbuttonbutton buttonbuttonbutton BUTTON BUT-TON!"

[wellington1869]

another question for WII owners:  Is it possible to plug a verizon 3g USB dongle into it to get it on the internet? Or is it strictly ethernet-cable/wifi?

[phillip]

the wii has built in wireless.  you need to buy an adapter if you want to use a cable.

[instantkamera]

Another selling point of the PS3 over the XBOX.
According to the other thread on consoles going on at this very moment here at GH, EIBM prefers XBOX.

That's a win for PS3 right there, if only for the "one less retard to deal with when playing online" factor.

[EverythingIBM]

a friend of mine is trying to decide between the two.  
-both will play netflix movies (which he wants)
-does xbox have motion controllers yet?

he's not a hardcore gamer, but likely would buy a few for fun.  Any opinions?

I'd probably shoot for the wii:
*cheaper
*smaller
*fun games to play seldom (such as when you have friends over).
etc.

Or... you could just get a nice DOS IBM computer
Lots of fun games on there... like like like.... ULTIMA, or AD&D!
It actually would be possible to run netflix & play DVDs on one, if I was being serious.

[wellington1869]

k thanks guys

[firestorm]

um the ps3 is a more than capable bluray player, it's just as good as any other player in it's price range (if not better) and has the added benefit of using it as a media server.

That's a matter of opinion and you can get one hellava bluray player for $300.

PS3 Pros:
- Bluray playback on par with many standalone players
- Plays games
- Media Center
- Fast boot times (less of a pro since standalones are now quite fast)

Cons:
- Slot load (potential for scratches)
- Below par DVD upconvert
- Not stackable like most A/V components
- No bitstream output of HD codecs (changed on the slim)
- No surround sound analog outs
- May overheat in an enclosed cabinet
- Loud fan
- Added expense to get BT or IR wireless media remote

There were other cons in the past, but I don't read about this stuff everyday and I'll assume many have been addressed, such as the bitstreaming was.  It's not like anything I've listed, pro or con, is a big deal.  I just believe that, aside from perhaps the media center capabilities, there is absolutely no reason to buy a PS3 unless you intend to use it as a gaming console.  Especially when you can get an equally competent - or better - standalone player for $150.  For $100 more you can get one that will satisfy many A/V geeks and spank the PS3 IMHO.

[instantkamera]

- Below par DVD upconvert

umm, unless "par" has changed since my day (it's been a while since I checked), the best up-converters were toshibas HD-DVD players and oppo players. The PS3 was always quite well regarded against these two, which would have placed it significantly above the avg.

unless you meant to put "below par" under pros by using a golf analogy (where 'tis good to be below par).

Also the BT controller rocks, it means you can control the player from just about anywhere, obstructions be damned. Im sure so highend BR players have RF remotes of some sort though...

I think bottom line is that the ps3 is alotta device for the price, and none of it IS sub-par, even if it is not "the 100% best".

[Lanx]

I have all 3 consoles, among them, all three have the same 2inch layer of dust... yea, thing is i don't play them, my fiance does(or did) for reference we also have ds/psp/itouch so we have everything to game, if we wanted.

all 3 can do netflix (i think only xbox doesn't require stupid cd to be inserted)
wii+ps3= free connection to their network (so you can download content, play other ppl/friends) also wii+ps3 has built in wifi(ps3 also has 1 ethernet port)
xbox360 are now coming w/ wifi as standard(b4 you had to buy a 99$ xbox360 only device or cheat and find the xbox(non 36) one for cheaper) and has 1 ethernet
*BUT* have to pay for xbox live gold for 60bucks(they raised prices)
*BUT* if you want to play with friends/other ppl you HAVE to get a 360 then, ppl go "lol whats your gamer tag? lets go xbox" xbox360 is the best console to game with other ppl.

gaming
wii-sucks stupid motion control, barely works, for instance whats the purpose of motion control if i can't super punch in boxing in punch out? but be limited to regular game rules (i.e. one punch at a time)
only good if you like "nintendo" type games- mario/zelda/metroid then you get the stupid party games where ppl can throw your controller and bust out your tv cuz they are too stupid to use the strap. (i have a projector and get a 100in screen and thank god, cuz there are at least 4x where i have idiots loosing the controller against my wall which would be a regular tv if i didn't have a projector). First old school motion control

next gen motion control
xbox and ps3, xbox is doing motion control more inventively with a camera and full on body movement, while ps3 is just basically imo upgrading the wii controls w/ 2 ice cream cones.

heres how i'd break it down
all 3=netflix
a. if you want to buy a console to entertain ppl w/ party games-> wii
b. if you want to game w/ friends and get killed by 12yr olds in every online game ->xbox
c. if you just want something but also want a nice bluray player ->ps3

[firestorm]

umm, unless "par" has changed since my day (it's been a while since I checked), the best up-converters were toshibas HD-DVD players and oppo players. The PS3 was always quite well regarded against these two, which would have placed it significantly above the avg.

unless you meant to put "below par" under pros by using a golf analogy (where 'tis good to be below par).

Also the BT controller rocks, it means you can control the player from just about anywhere, obstructions be damned. Im sure so highend BR players have RF remotes of some sort though...

I think bottom line is that the ps3 is alotta device for the price, and none of it IS sub-par, even if it is not "the 100% best".

Like I said, it's all a matter of opinion, and I must admit that I've only seen movies demo'ed on a PS3 once.  But I guess I meant "par" based on cost... i.e. PS3 vs. "one hellava bluray player for $300.  A couple years ago, I picked up a Panny BD-35 for $99.  It's upscaling is it at least equal to the PS3; I've read that it is marginally better.  That was a bargain then, but you can pick up faster players with: Netflix, Pandora, Youtube, etc... for near that price today.

The BT controller can be a pro or a con.  For me, it is most definitely a con unless being used in a secondary room.  I like to have just one remote, whether IR or RF.  It's the very same reason I dislike watching Netflix on the Wii.  However, I only commented on the fact that you have to buy the remote separately.  

I would still buy one based on its merits as a gaming console before anything else and look at the BD capability as pure bonus.  Other things on the con list are important *to me*.  The lack of analog outs on a $300 "player"; slot load; not stack-able; noisy; potential to overheat (my gear is all in a cabinet).  Some of those things may be important per this thread, and many are attributes unique to the PS3.  

You do get a lot for $300, but not where I need/want it, since I'm not much of a gamer.  My uncle demo'ed his for me, and it was very convincing.  Perhaps if I had an interest in at least 3 games, I would have opted to go that route.  

FWIW, my uncle has a dedicate home theater, and the PS3 is upstairs with the day-to-day setup that serves as their primary TV and gaming area.  The PS3 is perfect for them and that scenario.

[phillip]

bitstreaming is a nonissue (but yes, slim does bitstreaming), 7.1 analog outs are a nonissue as well, unless you have something like the oppo bdp-83 or bdp-83se.  stackability i don't care about - i'd rather have each component on it's own shelf.  you make it sound like the ps3 is the only one with a heat issue - avrs or amps (or the wii or 360) can easily overheat in an enclosed cabinet too.  the fan is definitely annoying, not that i've heard a slim's fan.  i don't care about the slot loading thing, since i've yet to see a scratched disc as a result.  as others have said the upconversion is fine, and i don't really care about the remote thing, but i can see that it would be an issue for some.

[phillip]

man, i totally forgot about getting usb powered fans.  i might order one or two.

[phillip]

i might do that since i have plenty of spare fans and cables...but i am also really lazy

[phillip]

[Konrad]

Maybe I'm wrong ...
I think Wii is mostly little kid stuff, XBox is for big boys.

[Lanx]

Maybe I'm wrong ...
I think Wii is mostly little kid stuff, XBox is for big boys.

It is, even its most gory game is all black and white with gray blood, sorta like how quentin T. Punked out on that crazy 88 scene in order to get a R rating!

[vils]

the 360 does have a new motion controller system called the kinect or something but it uses your whole body via cameras or something like that and i believe it's limited to 2 people max.  i could be wrong though because i don't really give a **** about motion controls.

According to Wikipedia the motion sensor can track up to six people. I'll now for sure when I get mine in November.

[phillip]

based on that wikipedia article:

Described by Microsoft personnel as the primary innovation of Kinect,[17][18][19][20] the software technology enables advanced gesture recognition, facial recognition, and voice recognition.[21]  According to information supplied to retailers, the Kinect is capable of simultaneously tracking up to six people, including two active players for motion analysis with a feature extraction of 20 joints per player.[22]

[pfink]

a friend of mine is trying to decide between the two.  
-both will play netflix movies (which he wants)
-does xbox have motion controllers yet?

he's not a hardcore gamer, but likely would buy a few for fun.  Any opinions?

I believe watching Netflix on an Xbox requires an Xbox Live subscription in addition to a Netflix subscription. For the Wii you just need to send for a free disc from Netflix.

If he's not a gamer tell him to get a Roku box:

http://www.roku.com/roku-products


Simple to set up, works great.

[wellington1869]

I believe watching Netflix on an Xbox requires an Xbox Live subscription in addition to a Netflix subscription. For the Wii you just need to send for a free disc from Netflix.

cool, thanks for the extra deet.  I'll tell him.

If he's not a gamer tell him to get a Roku box:

http://www.roku.com/roku-products
Simple to set up, works great.

yea i suggested that to him but he seems to have decided on the wii. I think its probably more his speed.

(he's a dad with a young kid (and elderly parents who visit sometimes) so the wii probably makes sense for him).

[wellington1869]

Show Image

I love the expression on this cat's face.

[wellington1869]

He's high on catnip.

He's like, you woke me up for this?

[microsoft windows]

Cats are funny animals. I got three of them.

[phillip]

yes, that cat is awesome.

and yeah, you have to have an xbl subscription to use netflix on the 360 as somebody mentioned before.

i think there will be an update for the ps3 that will make the disc unnecessary if there hasn't been one already but i haven't updated mine for awhile

[wellington1869]

yes, that cat is awesome.

need more pics of awesome cat.

[didjamatic]

We have a WII and love it.  Also have 2 hacked original Xboxes to run XBMC and stream videos through home network, and load emulators to play old games.  I wish I had a 360 for driving games but I seldom have time.  I boycott Sony when possible because they try too hard to be proprietary with their electronics rather than working with standards.  (minidisc, memory cards, micromv, on and on)

[phillip]

need more pics of awesome cat.

That's the only one I've got

[microsoft windows]

During the winter time, I always let my cats down into the basement with all the computers (It really gets bitter cold out there). They like it there. Although I got to wonder what they'll be thinking this winter when they see my new, cushy computer chair.

[Konrad]

There's always this much overused kitten pic.

 
I don't really see much point in buying a console if you can instead put your $200-$300 into a few upgrades on a gaming PC.
 
Neither the X360 nor PS3 is comparable, specialized benchmark FLOPs aside.  The PS3 isn't as good as a PC with recent GPU cards.  The XBox is essentially just a stripped-down gaming PC.  The Wii might be fun at parties but is trailing a distant 4th place.

[microsoft windows]

Yeah, I'd recommend just sticking with the good old computer.

[instantkamera]

We have a WII and love it.  Also have 2 hacked original Xboxes to run XBMC and stream videos through home network, and load emulators to play old games.  I wish I had a 360 for driving games but I seldom have time.  I boycott Sony when possible because they try too hard to be proprietary with their electronics rather than working with standards.  (minidisc, memory cards, micromv, on and on)

What standards? Generally, when Sony attempts to enter a market with a new format, there is no "standard", or there is a sub-standard "standard" that Sony believes they can improve on in some way.

I use the term "standard" loosely, as we are not talking about protocols and designs that are free to implement with NO licensing fees (save compact flash), whether or not they are (relatively) freely documented (ex. SD is more openly documented than Mem Stick, but both will cost money to license).

Formats are created by companies (Toshiba, panasonic, sandisk, sony, jvc, phillips, mitsubishi, etc) who want their **** to win because they can get licensing fees from other companies. Format wars arise when companies think they can beat/compete with another technology. Sony has won some, and lost some, as have all the others. Sony has also been partnered with other companies that have created some of the most lasting formats of all time.

I think boycotting based on this is silly, as there are generally very few 100% open and free formats (that I would call a true Standard). I also think that the competition is good and it is the right of every company to attempt to create a "better" format (even if that is just marketing).

Finally, I think it is odd that people boycott Sony products, since you are missing out. While Sony could have dropped quality on everything they make and got by on name alone (which some people believe they have), this is definitely not the case. Sony DO make some ****ty products, but they also have created some of the most renowned products in several different categories, and they continue to do so.

[instantkamera]

There's always this much overused kitten pic.

Show Image

 
I don't really see much point in buying a console if you can instead put your $200-$300 into a few upgrades on a gaming PC.
 

http://societalsanity.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-pc-gaming-sucks.html


Sitting at a computer desk vs. on the couch with a beer is a HUGE no-sell for PC gaming. I like that I can buy a new game, stick it in my 4-5 year old console, and it will play. That's it, that's all.

TCO is way lower.

[Konrad]

What standards? ... etc

Yes, for the most part I agree.
 
Sony's villainy is much overhyped, primarily because they are the biggest DMCA thug.
 
Yes, Sony's MS format is not a "standard" in the sense that it's universally adopted and compatible. It is a "standard" only in the sense that Sony standardizes it. MagicGate encryption isn't security at all, it's basically just a proprietary file system. Any fool can buy a Sony device and thus defeat MagicGate security. MagicGate is only a legal technology, it doesn't really introduce anything new and advanced beyond a patented trademark; MS won't work without it and nobody else can use it without paying Sony a licensing fee, thus non-Sony-approved MS clones (devices and media) cannot be marketed. SD is a more intercompatible "standard" simply because the SD specifications are written by all the companies in the SD Card Association. And Sony keeps putting MS slots into their toys. (Even an SD-MS adapter - a popular hacker thing built from All-in-One flash card reader controllers - cannot be marketed without a Sony license, and lol that won't ever happen.)
 
In this particular instance, Sony forces the consumer to adopt a storage format which is inferior (slower, smaller capacities), less compatible, and much more expensive. They did the same thing with Blu-Ray and pushed the "official standard" into extinction.  Now consumers buy Blu-Ray and the competition pays Sony for permission to market Blu drives and players.
 
Overall, Sony's products are damned good. They are definitely a leader in technological innovation, like it or not. They want to make a buck - and sometimes they go too far - but the hacker-idealized world of open source open architecture is just too utopian.  The big boys pay big money to invent new things and to protect their inventions while making money off them.
 
Blu-Ray is a "standard" resulting from Sony bully tactics.
Apple's iJunk is all proprietary "standard" as well.
Microsoft's entire Windows/Office architecture is a proprietary "standard".
Intel has dominated "standards" in the computing industry for decades.
Creative's Sound Blaster became the de-facto "standard".
Every game console or other electronic appliance which uses proprietary cartridges (Nintendo, etc) defines a "standard".
 
"Standards" have always been more about compatibility than specifications. That's why x86-based computers (full of clumsy and quirky backwards-compatibility bull****) are everywhere today, even though numerous other superior computing platforms have come ... and gone.

[ricercar]

I want my 2 minutes back, biatch.

[Konrad]

He only owes me about 15 seconds. I think I vote that as the worst bit of ripspam ever posted.

[didjamatic]

Some companies play well with others and work together to achieve success by adopting standards, some open some not.

Compact Flash or SD are supported by many devices, Sony Memory Sticks are much more proprietary.

MiniDV was a digital tape standard used by many manufacturers, Sony pushed the proprietary MicroMV format which was 2/3 the quality, stored less, cost more and could only be used in their devices.  

Compact Disc was the industry standard and Sony pushed the Sony Memory Disk.

I don't know about recently but for years when I would research electronics I would find that Sony would spend a great deal of resources on the outward appearance, making their product appear superior when compared side-by-side with JVC for example.  But looking further into specifications, competitors nearly always beat sony on the specs that mattered when you looked at products in the same price range.

For a long time Sony refused to use any standardized power/charger connectors.  They were all proprietary, even between different models from them in the same family of products.  

For many years Sony's laptops were loaded with bells and whistles but when you'd get into the specs on them, driver support, failure rates on power supplies and LCD's they were so problematic that businesses phased out all use of them everywhere I knew of.  The failure rate of Sony laptops compared to others was huge.  Every IT guy I knew hated them.

They even went so far as to install a virus on people's computers that would monitor their "illegal use" of their music.

I try to buy products that support standards like USB connectors rather than proprietary connectors that become worthless when the device breaks.

Every company has problems, and I know Sony has made some great products but based on my own personal experience, not on what others have said, I choose not to use them because of their constant attempts to be proprietary.

I don't always have a choice and can't say I would never buy Sony, but if there is a comparable product from someone else, I would buy it first.

Some may have had a different experience and if it works for you, that's great.  I just feel differently.

[Konrad]

Some companies play well with others and work together to achieve success by adopting standards, some open some not.
Compact Flash or SD are supported by many devices, Sony Memory Sticks are much more proprietary.

"Open" is a matter of opinion. Android, USB, and SD are open ... but anyone who wants to use these technologies still has to become a member of the group that governs the standards, and still has to pay licensing fees, etc. They can control, accept, or deny any proposed implementation as they like.
 
Sony's control the MS format is just more obvious because they are the only company that decides what this standard is and who gets licensed to use it (under Sony's terms). It's even been confirmed that Sony bins it's MagicGate parts and sells the crapped parts to other manufacturers who want to use them (thus the higher failure rates of other brands like NKIO when compared to Sony-branded products).
 

MiniDV was a digital tape standard used by many manufacturers, Sony pushed the proprietary MicroMV format...

I've tried to say it before: every major standard in consumer technologies is proprietary to some extent. Sony did the same thing with Beta, arguably technologically superior to VHS, but in the end they failed. And again with Blu-Ray, though successfully. Apple does it with FireWire (Sony did too, under the iLink trademark), roughly equivalent to USB2 and nowhere near as great as USB3, plus far more expensive, but still we have to accept it.
 

... I would find that Sony would spend a great deal of resources on the outward appearance, making their product appear superior when compared side-by-side with JVC for example. But looking further into specifications ...

As pointed out above, Apple and Microsoft and even Intel do the same thing. Sometimes their technologies are in fact superior, just as often they are not. You can't expect companies to explicitly advertise qualities in their products that are inferior to the competition. Job's "appearance" showmanship is especially notorious, 'nuff said. Windows is demonstrably inferior to linux, and overpriced, and has been for years, yet we all buy it (again and again) because of compatibility.
 

... Sony refused to use any standardized power/charger connectors. They were all proprietary, even between different models from them in the same family of products.

And Apple, Dell, IBM, HP/Compaq, Toshiba, Acer, Motorola, Nokia, HTC are any different? Or manufacturers of cars, televisions, or other hardware? It's not in their best interest to use universally compatible and reusable components. They make a fair amount of money forcing you to buy their parts. And they ensure that they are (at least initially) the only source of compatible parts. How many times have you upgraded to a new phone, PDA, laptop, car, whatever because although the unit otherwise worked fine it was impossible (or over costly) to replace some small but necessary add-on component?
 

For many years Sony's laptops were ... so problematic that businesses phased out all use of them everywhere I knew of. The failure rate of Sony laptops compared to others was huge. Every IT guy I knew hated them.

Then we know different IT guys. Some Sony laptops are indeed inferior, some are not, all are expensive. As with their cameras and mp3 players. Better to judge the merits of each product offering (including price and how "standard" the compatibility is) regardless of who makes it.
 

They even went so far as to install a virus on people's computers that would monitor their "illegal use" of their music.

Not a virus, a rootkit contaminant. Monitor, log, or report use, No. Implement (and self-update) internal CSS/DRM controls, Yes. Incidentally, every DVD drive by every manufacturer does the same, they just run DRM policing software at the firmware level instead of in software. Cable modems do something similar. Even the BIOS in some laptop models does this. And ever DVD player, (Sony) PlayStation, and (non-Sony) Xbox or Wii. Along with most phones, mp3 players, and every bloody iThing ever made. Why else do you think firmware hacking, mod chips, and jailbreaking are so popular?
 

I choose not to use [Sony] because of their constant attempts to be proprietary ... etc

I probably make many of the same choices you do. But not based on the fact that Sony (or whoever) made the product; instead based on the actual specifications and data of the product itself. In fact, I've recently been enlightened (here at GH) about my own brand prejudices; my automatically dismissing AMD products in favour of Intel ... blindly ignoring a lot of good products (and blindly ignoring the faults of preferred products). Of course, as the consumer, you and I each place our votes with our money.

[didjamatic]

We can argue back and forth all day over definitions of virus or open, but that would be missing the point.  And at the end of the day, when you buy many Sony products you are still generally more restricted than when you buy most others and are supporting a company that has done all it can to hammer everyone with one proprietary format after another.  If you are happy being a Sony Fanboy, I have no issue with that.  But my hard earned dollars are going toward companies that give me more compatibility when I am able to make that choice.

Sony Proprietary Formats

Sony Format Failure

[phillip]

he's a fanboy because he isn't prejudiced against sony? lol

[Konrad]

lol, agreed, though I'm definitely not a Sony fanboy, and I still argue that Apple's proprietary hardware path is even worse.
 
I notice that the corporate focus tends to emphasize controlling the data ("content") on the media itself, or on whatever device accesses that media.  Nobody really goes out of their way to ensure that their devices are intercompatible with other brands (outside of specification requirements) but they do everything they can to lock and control the media.

[didjamatic]

he's a fanboy because he isn't prejudiced against sony? lol

Not at all, but to ignore the path of proprietary destruction in Sony's wake is ignorant, even if you do like their products you can't deny their history.

lol, agreed, though I'm definitely not a Sony fanboy, and I still argue that Apple's proprietary hardware path is even worse.
 
I notice that the corporate focus tends to emphasize controlling the data ("content") on the media itself, or on whatever device accesses that media.  Nobody really goes out of their way to ensure that their devices are intercompatible with other brands (outside of specification requirements) but they do everything they can to lock and control the media.

Don't even get me started on Apple's lack of memory card slot, AAC format, stingyness with internal storage, itunes charades and blatant disregard for industry standards to the point they even move nubs on their keyboards "just to be different".

I'll trade my iphone for an Android as soon as I can without paying for it (work pays for iphone)

But I do wish I had a Macbook.  

[itlnstln]

Mmmm... Android.  I love my rooted EVO.  It's the geekiest thing I have done in a long time, but it was well worth it.

[keyboardlover]

Mmmm... Android.  I love my rooted EVO.  It's the geekiest thing I have done in a long time, but it was well worth it.

I considered doing that to my Droid...does that mean you can use the wifi without an internet service plan?

[instantkamera]

Some companies play well with others and work together to achieve success by adopting standards, some open some not.

Correct. and Sony have partnered with others several times before.

Compact Flash or SD are supported by many devices, Sony Memory Sticks are much more proprietary.

Technically, you would have to be referring to MMC, as SD didn't exist when Memory Stick was released. MS was definitely NOT Sony's crowning achievement.

MiniDV was a digital tape standard used by many manufacturers, Sony pushed the proprietary MicroMV format which was 2/3 the quality, stored less, cost more and could only be used in their devices.  

possibly, I know nothing of those formats.

Compact Disc was the industry standard and Sony pushed the Sony Memory Disk.

Never heard of Memory Disk, and I know for a fact they joined with Phillips on the CD:

 Sony first publicly demonstrated an optical digital audio disc in September 1976. In September 1978, they demonstrated an optical digital audio disc with a 150 minute playing time

...

On March 8, 1979 Philips publicly demonstrated a prototype of an optical digital audio disc at a press conference called "Philips Introduce Compact Disc"[3] in Eindhoven, Netherlands.[4]

Later in 1979, Sony and Philips Consumer Electronics (Philips) set up a joint task force of engineers to design a new digital audio disc. Led by Kees Schouhamer Immink and To****ada Doi, the research pushed forward laser and optical disc technology that began independently by Philips and Sony in 1977 and 1975, respectively.[3] After a year of experimentation and discussion, the taskforce produced the Red Book, the Compact Disc standard.

**source wikipedia

For a long time Sony refused to use any standardized power/charger connectors.  They were all proprietary, even between different models from them in the same family of products.  

No one uses the same power connectors/chargers. I can't hook a macbook charger up to anything else. Still, the macbook charger is the coolest thing about a macbook. I do know that sony has made some effort to have things like batteries and chargers be interchangeable between models in the same class (say, for cameras).

 

For many years Sony's laptops were loaded with bells and whistles but when you'd get into the specs on them, driver support, failure rates on power supplies and LCD's they were so problematic that businesses phased out all use of them everywhere I knew of.  The failure rate of Sony laptops compared to others was huge.  Every IT guy I knew hated them.

Overpriced garbage. Would NEVER buy a sony PC/laptop.

 

They even went so far as to install a virus on people's computers that would monitor their "illegal use" of their music.

Rootkit. definitely sketchy. No more sketchy than a Microsoft product or two (they make the xbox BTW).

 

I try to buy products that support standards like USB connectors rather than proprietary connectors that become worthless when the device breaks.

Funny, I have been using A sony provided usb A - mini B for like eight different devices right now, including my sandisk sansa clip+, eReader, ps3 peripherals and so-on.


 

  Every company has problems, and I know Sony has made some great products but based on my own personal experience, not on what others have said, I choose not to use them because of their constant attempts to be proprietary.

I don't always have a choice and can't say I would never buy Sony, but if there is a comparable product from someone else, I would buy it first.

Some may have had a different experience and if it works for you, that's great.  I just feel differently.

This is the thing, you are missing out for sure. I think, if you are purchasing a given product, you would do well to compare it against the others in it's class before looking at the badge and dismissing.

Some sony products I have personally owned that you would have been hard pressed to beat at the time:

- Sony Trinitron TV (This is not even their computer monitors. I never owned a sony computer monitor, but always wished I did (an artisan)): Was a beast, and the best way to watch 480 lines of resolution (read: dvd) EVER. Built-in 16:9 enhancement would literally squeeze all the lines of res from the 4:3 ratio into a 16:9 box for playing anamorphic dvds.

- Sony f717 (and the 707 and 828 - which I didnt own): A cult classic in the digital photography world. Before mere mortals could afford DSLRs (read: before the first digital rebel came out), this was IT, nothing else in the prosumer category could touch it.

- Sony R1: An amazing feat - first marketable and USABLE fixed-lens APS-C (dSLR sized) sensor. I regret to this day getting rid of this.

- Sony PRS-505 (and newer PRS-300 but NOT the PRS-600) eReader: Considered one of the best looking, toughest and most OPEN eReaders out there. Takes MS ... AND SD. Uses standard USB cable and works in linux (it shows up as a simple mass storage device (or three)).

- PS3: gods gift to non-gamers who love FPS but hate sitting at their computer. I am suffering from withdraw after not playing all summer. Gimme a beer, a comfy couch, and a playstation controller. nice.

Basically, we are both right, Sony is a sketchy company that often makes great consumer devices. As consumers, we owe it to ourselves to benefit from the good products.

[instantkamera]

I get it.

This guy gets it.

[wellington1869]

Show Image

this cat could be a character in Alice in Wonderland

[didjamatic]

Oops, I said Sony Memory Disk, I meant Sony Mini disk.

But for what it's worth, if it had the time to enjoy them I would have a Wii, 360 and PS3.

[Konrad]

I get it.

This guy gets it.

He gets it, too. Is it contagious?

[wellington1869]

I got it on my willie.

[ricercar]

Don't get it on you.

FWIW when introduced, the Sony Mini Disc (MD) Walkman was a godsend for live recording. The psycho-acoustic compression was worth the trade off in CD-like clarity.

[didjamatic]

FWIW when introduced, the Sony Mini Disc (MD) Walkman was a godsend for live recording. The psycho-acoustic compression was worth the trade off in CD-like clarity.

I debated long and hard on a MD, but got a Tascam 4 track instead.

[Lanx]

Oops, I said Sony Memory Disk, I meant Sony Mini disk.

But for what it's worth, if it had the time to enjoy them I would have a Wii, 360 and PS3.

I have all three and like i said they're collecting dust, really i bought the ps3, so the fiancee could play ff13 (and kh3 later on) i bought the xbox cuz it was cheap and have some friends over playing guitar hero(that faded away) and the wii for party games(which no one like anymore)

[Konrad]

Too bad nothing has really caught up to USB2 High-Speed, though. Real bus speeds never approach theoretical 480Mbps ... chipsets usually bottleneck it at 150-180Mbps, and that's assuming they're not also busy doing ten other things.  The controllers on the actual USB devices are insultingly slow, especially on flash drives.
 
USB speeds are not only determined by the weakest link, but also by the raw oomphf of the host. ****ty PC equals slow bus no matter how much USB tech you buy. FireWire speeds remain fairly constant (and near their rated max) regardless of what you plug into. Most USB2 devices are just relabelled USB1.1, looks newer, better compatibility, still useless old speeds. I expect USB3 devices will claim the same while still falling short.

[washuai]

what kind of musical options are you thinking of? Can you plug MIDI devices into it?

For myself I'd seriously consider the xbox once they come out with that true guitar controller. some info on that from my friend (another friend's) blog

The below, btw, is a midi guitar (!) that doubles as a rock band controller: check out how every position on every fret is a switch.

fs=1&hl=en_US">

[wellington1869]

update, he wound up buying a roku, lol.  only $70.  
I think he'll still get a wii at some point but he's delayed the purchase till he updates his tv next year.

[Konrad]

What's 1080p good for anyways, unless you have a matching HD1080 Blu-Ray player?

[Hak Foo]

The Wii has better reliability, as far as I've heard.

[Lanx]

What's 1080p good for anyways, unless you have a matching HD1080 Blu-Ray player?

you mean 1080p tv right? cuz this is about streaming hd.

[Konrad]

I'm addicted to this now.

[wellington1869]

i'm playing psp and xbox right now at my serious-gamer friends place  God of war 3 on psp has pretty amazing graphics. excellent water effects, and love the way the sweat sparkles on the characters based on the position of the light source.

I asked my friend which he prefers, xbox or psp? (he's a gaming fiend). He said "probably xbox". I asked him why, since psp (as he noted) often has the superior graphics. He said mainly because a) wider selection of games, and b) much better implementation of network-gaming.

that said, as he noted, on certain games psp graphics are incredibly realistic.

[instantkamera]

I think he'll still get a wii at some point but he's delayed the purchase till he updates his tv next year.

Bad idea. IF he has a CRT now, that is the best his Wii will ever look. Upscaling (especially the generally BAD upscaling of todays flat panels - a separate video processor can doa  good job, but is likely not on his radar) will never make it look as good as a decent CRT.

Upgrading the TV generally means getting a 1080p high-def TV. Anyone doing so owes it to themselves to get the best looking sources to pair with a display like that.

[wellington1869]

Bad idea. IF he has a CRT now, that is the best his Wii will ever look. Upscaling (especially the generally BAD upscaling of todays flat panels - a separate video processor can doa  good job, but is likely not on his radar) will never make it look as good as a decent CRT.

Upgrading the TV generally means getting a 1080p high-def TV. Anyone doing so owes it to themselves to get the best looking sources to pair with a display like that.

no he has an LCD right now, but he wants a much bigger LCD at some point.

he has a 42" one right now i think. or maybe its 35. Anyway he wants like a 60" one or something.

for me, I think 42" is plenty for an LCD. but then I have a 12" CRT in my room right now

[itlnstln]

Once you 60+, it's hard to go back.  I miss my 80" projection setup.  That was nice.

[KillerBee]

I am more partial to the 360 beacuse of the Halo franchise

[Lanx]

Once you 60+, it's hard to go back.  I miss my 80" projection setup.  That was nice.

Kinda annoying tho, when i moved one of the requirements i had for our new apartment was to have a 14' throw distance and as far as apartments go, most are 12'.
So i have no dinning area! i have a 14' throw distance to get a 100' screen i even ceiling mounted it to save space (gonna patch it up real good b4 they charge me for damages!)

[itlnstln]

That's why I went with 80".  100" would have been cool, but the screen size would have been too large for the room.  In the bedroom I converted to a "theater" the screen scale was similar to the IMAX.  Unfortunately, having a 480p projector caused some issues with screendoor.  Someday, I'll set it back up with a 1080p projector, but it'll be awhile since I am moving soon.

[KillerBee]

80"?

Life size porn.  Get the Syncmaster 82" LCD Touchscreen at Macmall for $62K.

HOLY .... wow! I am impressed!

Now where is my black american express card?

[KillerBee]

Tea Bag!  No not THAT Tea Bag you pervs!!!

Show Image

Now dont get me wrong I love Nintendo, I still use my Nintendo Entertainment System and the Super Nintendo too!

I just stop caring after the N64.

[itlnstln]

80"?

Life size porn.

Yep.  I think Debbie Does Dallas was the first thing my roommate at the time and I watched on it.  Trust me, it's not as cool as you think.

[NamelessPFG]

For the Wii, I think it boils down to how much you like Nintendo games. That's why I have one. There are also some nice compilations from prior generations and enhanced ports available.

For the Xbox 360...honestly, I liked its predecessor more, even if that also had too much overlap with a Windows PC. Then again, the Xbox Live Arcade has some compelling ports and remakes of existing titles (Radiant Silvergun released outside of Japan, in HD to boot? HELL, IT'S ABOUT TIME!), and maybe Kinect will turn out to be something really good for all I know.

The PS3 has more compelling exclusives than the X360 that don't involve XBLA (whose interesting titles are, as I said, ports/remakes), and you don't have to pay for online multiplayer. However, they've really neutered the console from the original CECHA revision, taking out PS2 backwards compatibility, support for certain media formats, and who knows what else to get the costs down. Oh, and the whole Other OS debacle and Sony blatantly lying about not planning to remove it at all.

Also, I'm surprised to see a certain someone in here who has very literally said "I don't game, or give two ****s about gaming."

[itlnstln]

Also, I'm surprised to see a certain someone in here who has very literally said "I don't game, or give two ****s about gaming."

Who?  Me?

I don't really give a **** about anything we talk about here.

[itlnstln]

You pulled my card on that one, ripster.  Deuces wild!

[wellington1869]

?  The Cat?

Show Image

best cat ever

[NamelessPFG]

Who?  Me?

I don't really give a **** about anything we talk about here.

Not you. Click this and scroll down until you see this:

I cant argue with this. I don't game, or give two ****s about gaming, but I would have to agree that, as in most things, the gold standard for judging an LCD's gaming capability is by comparing it to a CRT; s'gotta say something. Stick with your $6 CRTs for now.

Then again, I can't blame you for not caring much about what goes on here, given much of the arguing I've seen.

[Konrad]

We like to argue about shiny keys.

Show Image

Speaking of which, those 28-key white "Model-L" keyboards look awfully sucky. The black one looks better, nice big backspace, but no backslash key. Can't LEGO do any better?

[instantkamera]

Not you. Click this and scroll down until you see this:



Then again, I can't blame you for not caring much about what goes on here, given much of the arguing I've seen.

I was referring to PC gaming, as it was a discussion about COMPUTER monitors. Big difference.

I dont consider someone who owns a Wii a "gamer" and I have been told by several PC "gamers" that my ps3 (that and the Wii are the first consoles I have purchased since the 16bit era) is nothing but a kids toy.

Finally, my major point was that gaming would have no impact on my decision to buy one monitor over the other.

Since I own a PS3 however, it would somewhat factor into a television purchase (input lag).

[NamelessPFG]

I was referring to PC gaming, as it was a discussion about COMPUTER monitors. Big difference.

I dont consider someone who owns a Wii a "gamer" and I have been told by several PC "gamers" that my ps3 (that and the Wii are the first consoles I have purchased since the 16bit era) is nothing but a kids toy.

Finally, my major point was that gaming would have no impact on my decision to buy one monitor over the other.

Since I own a PS3 however, it would somewhat factor into a television purchase (input lag).

That explains a lot.

I'm not against console gaming, otherwise I wouldn't own several of the things. (NES, SNES, Genesis, Neo-Geo CD, N64, Saturn, PS1, Xbox, and a Wii...and yes, I do have that last one for actual gaming. Don't you dare try to disqualify me just because of the Wii's very presence.) I just prefer the greater flexibility of PC gaming, particularly with mods and input devices. (That last one is probably why combat flight simulators are practically nonexistent on consoles.)

[instantkamera]

yeah. I cant be bothered. Im a computer geek by nature and trade, but I just hate the randomness of PC gaming. Will it work? Do I need a CPU upgrade? Do I need a GPU upgrade? Do I need more RAM? Is the game super buggy? Does it work well with my version of winders (given there are a few flavours still going strong)? To me PC gaming seems to be LESS about the games and more about the PC.

I actually think my favourite GAMING console is still my DS. Tons of really unique and engaging games and no hassle of "will it run". That, to me is "GAMING".