[GB] KAT Refined *** FIRST SETS DELIVERED ***

[KawabataLuis]

The Refined uses a non-round fonts with sharp edges. And doubleshots can't do that.
And the font is one of the fundamental design choices of this set.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106725.0

I do completely understand your point. But if there is any interest, on the part of the designer/runner, I think it would be interesting to actually test this out, especially since there are other sets comitting fully to doubleshot.

[VellFlamm]

The Refined uses a non-round fonts with sharp edges. And doubleshots can't do that.
And the font is one of the fundamental design choices of this set.
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=106725.0

I do completely understand your point. But if there is any interest, on the part of the designer/runner, I think it would be interesting to actually test this out, especially since there are other sets comitting fully to doubleshot.

Yeah, I do wonder if there were any talks between the designer/vendor and Keyreative about the possibility tbh.

I have joined several KAT GBs that haven't switched to doubleshots(Space Cadet, Iron, and this),
and honestly given up hopes on those after getting the Kitty KAT (It does use the old machines, but meh).
I do love the crisp legends on doubleshot keycaps, so despite sounding like I'm against it, I do really wish for every past KAT GBs (or future GBs for that matter) to shift to using doubleshots.
It's just that I can't really see it happening.

[Mr Chrome]

I have joined several KAT GBs that haven't switched to doubleshots(Space Cadet, Iron, and this),
and honestly given up hopes on those after getting the Kitty KAT (It does use the old machines, but meh).
I do love the crisp legends on doubleshot keycaps, so despite sounding like I'm against it, I do really wish for every past KAT GBs (or future GBs for that matter) to shift to using doubleshots.
It's just that I can't really see it happening.

That’s my stance on it also. What problems did you find with Kitty KAT? From what I’ve heard of Arctic I’m not sure it’s just old machines at fault.

[VellFlamm]

I have joined several KAT GBs that haven't switched to doubleshots(Space Cadet, Iron, and this),
and honestly given up hopes on those after getting the Kitty KAT (It does use the old machines, but meh).
I do love the crisp legends on doubleshot keycaps, so despite sounding like I'm against it, I do really wish for every past KAT GBs (or future GBs for that matter) to shift to using doubleshots.
It's just that I can't really see it happening.

That’s my stance on it also. What problems did you find with Kitty KAT? From what I’ve heard of Arctic I’m not sure it’s just old machines at fault.

Unevenness in color and matt-ness, scratch marks on keytops, shiny edges, misaligned legends, and minor shrinkage of some keys.
Yeah, the shrunken keys from the Arctic I've seen were unacceptable IMHO.

I love the typing experience itself and the sound the KAT profile makes.
It's such a shame that the manufacture is incapable.

[Mr Chrome]

I have joined several KAT GBs that haven't switched to doubleshots(Space Cadet, Iron, and this),
and honestly given up hopes on those after getting the Kitty KAT (It does use the old machines, but meh).
I do love the crisp legends on doubleshot keycaps, so despite sounding like I'm against it, I do really wish for every past KAT GBs (or future GBs for that matter) to shift to using doubleshots.
It's just that I can't really see it happening.

That’s my stance on it also. What problems did you find with Kitty KAT? From what I’ve heard of Arctic I’m not sure it’s just old machines at fault.

Unevenness in color and matt-ness, scratch marks on keytops, shiny edges, misaligned legends, and minor shrinkage of some keys.
Yeah, the shrunken keys from the Arctic I've seen were unacceptable IMHO.

I love the typing experience itself and the sound the KAT profile makes.
It's such a shame that the manufacture is incapable.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I’ve seen the shiny edges and scratches on KAM Wraith at the biip discord. The shrunken mods on Arctic were still the worst I’ve seen, though. I worry about that because I went BoW Alphas and WoB Mods, and if their current reverse dyesub of darker colors can cause that amount of shrinkage, I’m gonna have a bad time D:

The worst part is, I’m not even sure going doubleshot would solve all these issues. The color and print issues, maybe, but the shrinking and imperfections like scratches could still be there.

But by God, the profile is nice. They struck gold and lost it, so far.

[KawabataLuis]

I have joined several KAT GBs that haven't switched to doubleshots(Space Cadet, Iron, and this),
and honestly given up hopes on those after getting the Kitty KAT (It does use the old machines, but meh).
I do love the crisp legends on doubleshot keycaps, so despite sounding like I'm against it, I do really wish for every past KAT GBs (or future GBs for that matter) to shift to using doubleshots.
It's just that I can't really see it happening.

Shrinkage is definitely one the worst of the problems on my list, really hope that doesn't happen. Even if it is uniform throughout the whole set, the extra space among the keycaps on any board would definitely annoy me. As it already did on some topre sets that I used to have. Shrinkage and bleeding, hope the "To Worry" list doesn't grow, lol. The rest is bad, but passable imo. But definitely will consider that in future KAT gbs.

That’s my stance on it also. What problems did you find with Kitty KAT? From what I’ve heard of Arctic I’m not sure it’s just old machines at fault.

Unevenness in color and matt-ness, scratch marks on keytops, shiny edges, misaligned legends, and minor shrinkage of some keys.
Yeah, the shrunken keys from the Arctic I've seen were unacceptable IMHO.

I love the typing experience itself and the sound the KAT profile makes.
It's such a shame that the manufacture is incapable.

Thanks for sharing your experience. I’ve seen the shiny edges and scratches on KAM Wraith at the biip discord. The shrunken mods on Arctic were still the worst I’ve seen, though. I worry about that because I went BoW Alphas and WoB Mods, and if their current reverse dyesub of darker colors can cause that amount of shrinkage, I’m gonna have a bad time D:

The worst part is, I’m not even sure going doubleshot would solve all these issues. The color and print issues, maybe, but the shrinking and imperfections like scratches could still be there.

But by God, the profile is nice. They struck gold and lost it, so far.

[MS85]

I love the typing experience itself and the sound the KAT profile makes.
It's such a shame that the manufacture is incapable.

But by God, the profile is nice. They struck gold and lost it, so far.

Totally agree on both points. Up to now I only tested a black on beige set bought on eloquent clicks and the typing feel and texture are amazing. The sound is great.
But the feedbacks and photos I see coming out month after month are making me reconsider any new IC that is based on KAT/KAM.

Also my set is quite scuffed with a lot of misalignments (plus an F6 key that does not sit properly). But I thought it was just due to being a generic "cheap" set.

Anyway, if there is a possibility to improve quality, even with some delay in delivery, I'm definitely in for the waiting.

[roguesystem087]

incase if anyone was looking, ETA is apparently Dec 2021
merry christmas folks

[Jo_hannes]

incase if anyone was looking, ETA is apparently Dec 2021
merry christmas folks

Where did you get that info? Also, I will not believe it before I have the caps in hand.
/Johannes

[Mr Chrome]

incase if anyone was looking, ETA is apparently Dec 2021
merry christmas folks

Where did you get that info? Also, I will not believe it before I have the caps in hand.
/Johannes

Deskhero has the shipping ETA as Q4, and Mekibo/TX Keyboards has it for December. But since Keyreative isn’t great at communicating with vendors/anyone, I wouldn’t put too much faith in it ._.

[MacSurfy]

It's not a date that has been communicated to me, so I can't validate it. Sorry.

[hiddensong]

My 6.C badly needs this set.

[MacSurfy]

-

[yui]

sad to ear, especially in the middle of so many KAT GB currently waiting

[MacSurfy]

sad to ear, especially in the middle of so many KAT GB currently waiting

Well that post helped. Finally heard back ... annoying that one has to get upset for things to happen.

[GSV-CargoCult]

Glad you finally heard back! Any details?

[MacSurfy]

Glad you finally heard back! Any details?

Not yet, will share when I find out. But I would assume that the "leaked" ETA of December sounds a lot more realistic.

[Leo66]

The best kat

[MacSurfy]

I just heard from the manu out of the blue. We are apparently very close to going in to production. A lot earlier than I expected to be honest but this is good news for us all. Still have some things I need to sort out but I will keep you guys posted.

[Mr Chrome]

I just heard from the manu out of the blue. We are apparently very close to going in to production. A lot earlier than I expected to be honest but this is good news for us all. Still have some things I need to sort out but I will keep you guys posted.

Whoa, thank you for the update! That’s surprisingly good news I was not expecting. Maybe changing some sets to doubleshot freed up the queue...

[Diggidy]

,

[damsenviet]

I doubt refined can change to doubleshot since we're using a different font in a different position.
It would cost a lot to get the molds made specifically for refined.

[Adelscott]

Looking at KAM Wraith right now, alignement is very bad. Hope they'll improve their (reverse) dyesub technique but I have little hope.

[MacSurfy]

Full layout sample set is done. Will be sent to me today so will hopefully have something to show you guys next week. If everything is OK we will move in to production. Exciting!

[kiwoli]

Full layout sample set is done. Will be sent to me today so will hopefully have something to show you guys next week. If everything is OK we will move in to production. Exciting!

Great news, hope the samples will be indicative of the production run!

[Jo_hannes]

Full layout sample set is done. Will be sent to me today so will hopefully have something to show you guys next week. If everything is OK we will move in to production. Exciting!

Wow, excellent to hear. All of a sudden, stuff is happening!

[MacSurfy]

I have received the new samples. Unfortunately there are issues with them, so we won't be heading in to production now. I will order new samples but expect further delays. Hopefully we can still have it in our hands this year though, but we will see.

[Mecxs]

Guess you could say that the samples need to be ... refined?

 

For real though keep up the good work. 3 more months of waiting is temporary, an inferior product is forever!

[yui]

still much better than the silent treatment that happened earlier, at least things are going forward, hopefully they can make it work though.

[MS85]

I have received the new samples. Unfortunately there are issues with them, so we won't be heading in to production now. I will order new samples but expect further delays. Hopefully we can still have it in our hands this year though, but we will see.

Thanks for your update :-)

Just out of curiosity, and maybe to benchmark the state for other GBs with Keyreative: can you share with us the issues you found?

[MacSurfy]

I have received the new samples. Unfortunately there are issues with them, so we won't be heading in to production now. I will order new samples but expect further delays. Hopefully we can still have it in our hands this year though, but we will see.

Thanks for your update :-)

Just out of curiosity, and maybe to benchmark the state for other GBs with Keyreative: can you share with us the issues you found?

Mainly legend alignment issues between caps. Even on the same row it differs between them which is obviously not good. While I am at it I will tweak the balancing between legend thicknesses (bow & wob is different because of the color bleed). Will keep you guys posted on how it goes.

[kwhilden]

I'm quite excited for this set, but I do wonder if MacSurfy's tolerance for quality is even achievable by Keyreative....  I certainly hope so!

[Mr Chrome]

I have received the new samples. Unfortunately there are issues with them, so we won't be heading in to production now. I will order new samples but expect further delays. Hopefully we can still have it in our hands this year though, but we will see.

Aw, that's a bummer. I imagine with the non-centered legends the results look a lot like KAM Wraith, which had some alignment mishaps too. Not sure how fixable it is, though. If the next samples have similar issues it probably won't be worth delaying production much longer.

No chance we could see the samples anyway? Curious to see how the BoW and WoB look together.

[Adelscott]

Alignment issues will be there for sure. I've lost hope on Keyreative dyesub. It seems thar the only thing that can save them is double shot, we'll see with Atlantis... But maybe RIP localized child kits with no MOQ

[MacSurfy]

I have received the new samples. Unfortunately there are issues with them, so we won't be heading in to production now. I will order new samples but expect further delays. Hopefully we can still have it in our hands this year though, but we will see.

Aw, that's a bummer. I imagine with the non-centered legends the results look a lot like KAM Wraith, which had some alignment mishaps too. Not sure how fixable it is, though. If the next samples have similar issues it probably won't be worth delaying production much longer.

No chance we could see the samples anyway? Curious to see how the BoW and WoB look together.

Here is a potato photo I took earlier to send off to Keyreative. Sorry about the poor lighting/exposure.
You can clearly see a height difference, but even more so the horizontal position of the legends. 'R' vs. 'M' for instance. Big difference.

[WillyWortel]

ooof...

Did Keyreative it's own QA control not spot this?

[MikeTheTiger]

I haven't paid much attention or I'm mixing it up with KAT Monochrome, but is this 2-shot now?

[proskit]

You got me -- dangit!

Can't wait for them to come! Thanks for making such a killer set!

[Mr Chrome]

I haven't paid much attention or I'm mixing it up with KAT Monochrome, but is this 2-shot now?

That’s Monochrome.

Here is a potato photo I took earlier to send off to Keyreative. Sorry about the poor lighting/exposure.
You can clearly see a height difference, but even more so the horizontal position of the legends. 'R' vs. 'M' for instance. Big difference.

Thank you for posting the photo! And you’re right, horizontal alignment issues on non-centered legends look conspicuously wrong. Wraith had a similar issue, with some legends well spaced and some about to fall off :/

The colours, and the shrinkage on the WoB keys, look pretty good though? It looks better than the shrinkage on Arctic’s dark vs light caps, but maybe it’s more obvious on bigger keys. The WoB legends and BoW legends look like a pretty close fit too. I can see how the bleed affects the thicknesses, but considering most people will only be mixing alphas and mod kits, I don’t think a 1:1 match is all that necessary.

Wishing you luck with future samples

[nsyinc]

the whole selling point of this set is the legends and for them to be refined.

to suggest that macsurfy should lower his standards and have the sets go into production even with issues is frankly ridiculous.

the sets should be produced as intended or they shouldn’t be produced at all. i dont think many gb participants bought in so they can get a subpar set. i, for one, didn’t.

[DrHigsby]

Some news is better than none at all! Thanks for keeping us updated, MacSurfy!

[pott]

Will Mekibo offer potential refunds on this? Other vendors have started doing it for other KAT sets (or at least... one that I know of, Atlantis).
It's over twice the wait-time and there is no clear ETA. Everything got delayed with Covid, I get that, but professionals owe ETAs to paying customers. We are not getting much here.

(yes I know it's unlikely McSurfy dictates Mekibo's cancellation policy changes. Just asking on here, just-in-case)

[kwhilden]

Will Mekibo offer potential refunds on this? Other vendors have started doing it for other KAT sets (or at least... one that I know of, Atlantis).

It definitely is a bummer with all the delays on KAT sets. But that's the risk we all assume when joining a group buy. If a small vendor like Mekibo can't afford to offer a refund, then I find it hard to blame them. We all knew the risk before joining.
It's over twice the wait-time and there is no clear ETA. Everything got delayed with Covid, I get that, but professionals owe ETAs to paying customers. We are not getting much here.

(yes I know it's unlikely McSurfy dictates Mekibo's cancellation policy changes. Just asking on here, just-in-case)

[hammerbrotha]

Will Mekibo offer potential refunds on this? Other vendors have started doing it for other KAT sets (or at least... one that I know of, Atlantis).
It's over twice the wait-time and there is no clear ETA. Everything got delayed with Covid, I get that, but professionals owe ETAs to paying customers. We are not getting much here.

(yes I know it's unlikely McSurfy dictates Mekibo's cancellation policy changes. Just asking on here, just-in-case)

Generally no. GB being delayed is generally not a  reason for refunds. YMMV though.



Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

[VellFlamm]

Will Mekibo offer potential refunds on this? Other vendors have started doing it for other KAT sets (or at least... one that I know of, Atlantis).
It's over twice the wait-time and there is no clear ETA. Everything got delayed with Covid, I get that, but professionals owe ETAs to paying customers. We are not getting much here.

(yes I know it's unlikely McSurfy dictates Mekibo's cancellation policy changes. Just asking on here, just-in-case)

They did that because they changed the manufacturing method on Atlantis and etc. Not because it was delayed.

[MacSurfy]

It's over twice the wait-time and there is no clear ETA.

It was supposed to be delivered may/june and was pushed to September not long after. I am struggling with how you get that to be double the time that was first communicated.

Everything got delayed with Covid, I get that, but professionals owe ETAs to paying customers. We are not getting much here.

I have communicated as well as I can, but it's also pointless to give you set ETA's when they will not be met anyway. Then you would be pissed about that. It's all out of my hands. The last (I hope) samples have been ordered a while back and if they come back good I am assuming we can move in to production pretty fast. I would guess an ETA of november/december (which is still not twice the wait time  )

[yui]

i think the lack of professionalism was orientated toward keyreative, with their complete lack of communication on some GB, low quality samples and unmet ETA after unmet ETA, i do understand that Covid hit them too, but i feel like there would be far less frustrated peoples if communication was a bit better.

[macclack]

i think the lack of professionalism was orientated toward keyreative, with their complete lack of communication on some GB, low quality samples and unmet ETA after unmet ETA, i do understand that Covid hit them too, but i feel like there would be far less frustrated peoples if communication was a bit better.

From my experience (my business uses Asia for a significant amount of our supply chain) lack of communication and lack of control are the norm right now. COVID has made manufacturing and shipping so unpredictable that it's next to impossible to provide solid lead-times.  My expectations are very low at the moment.

[MikeTheTiger]

i think the lack of professionalism was orientated toward keyreative, with their complete lack of communication on some GB, low quality samples and unmet ETA after unmet ETA, i do understand that Covid hit them too, but i feel like there would be far less frustrated peoples if communication was a bit better.

From my experience (my business uses Asia for a significant amount of our supply chain) lack of communication and lack of control are the norm right now. COVID has made manufacturing and shipping so unpredictable that it's next to impossible to provide solid lead-times.  My expectations are very low at the moment.

This is pretty concerning. I have money wrapped up in this and Monochrome. It’s surely not behavior you would expect from a reputable company.

[MS85]

i think the lack of professionalism was orientated toward keyreative, with their complete lack of communication on some GB, low quality samples and unmet ETA after unmet ETA, i do understand that Covid hit them too, but i feel like there would be far less frustrated peoples if communication was a bit better.

From my experience (my business uses Asia for a significant amount of our supply chain) lack of communication and lack of control are the norm right now. COVID has made manufacturing and shipping so unpredictable that it's next to impossible to provide solid lead-times.  My expectations are very low at the moment.

Difficulties with the definition of a realistic ETA are understandable. Keeping on accepting set after set while you are not sure you can deliver an acceptable product yet is quite a different story. That starts sounding like a Ponzi/Tesla scheme.

Personally, I've seen several KAT/KAM GBs after this, some quite interesting, but stayed far away from them. Hope to see Keyreative delivering some results before placing other bets on them.