Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint

[wellington1869]

Unless you claim any rights, I'd like to go with it.

i'd be honored.

These are not on the home row? I only want them on the right half to keep the left half free for user layouts or sound. So PrtSc/ScrlLock/Pause will go to , . - now.

I'll make a render of the final layout.

cool beans

[IBI]

Thanks for the replies and sorry for answering late, I needed some time off. I'll keep the comments on the cream version in mind. :smile:

I'll echo that, it's nice to see a more gently coloured peripheral when most things are aggressively coloured in black, white or silver. Although I'm not sure about the brown trackpoint, something closer to the colour of the case might be nicer.

Will do. Also different languages.

I think that's a good idea, you never know if it'll particularly take off in one country.

If it's flattering you might also want to provide some pictures/renders of the keyboard in situ in front of a laptop or screen.

I'm sure there'll be plenty of geekhackers willing to spread the word to blogs and forums when you're ready to officially leak it.

Cursor "Inverted T" on J K L and I.
Home/end on ; and '
Pg up/dn on U and O

Insert on M

Print Screen on P
Scroll Lock and Pause on < and >

Let me know what you think of this.

Is the FN key the bottom left one?

I think I prefer your layout to wellington's, although I would make one change and move the pgdn key to either N or M as I find it easier to access than U and it's also lower down than the PgUp position.

[itlnstln]

Although I'm not sure about the brown trackpoint, something closer to the colour of the case might be nicer.

The case is brown; that's why I like it.

[wellington1869]

lowpo - one question - will the Fn keys work if used in conjunction with CTRL and other keys? So for example, if you hit Fn+CTRL+Left("J"), will the cursor move one word at a time rather than one character at a time? (ie, for example, in MS Word).

just curious. thanks.

[lowpoly]

If it's flattering you might also want to provide some pictures/renders of the keyboard in situ in front of a laptop or screen.

There are some on page 16. Have to do "real ones".

Is the FN key the bottom left one?

It's the one with the swirl to the left and right of the space bar. I want two Fn layers in the final version so the one on the right may become Fn2.

I think I prefer your layout to wellington's, although I would make one change and move the pgdn key to either N or M as I find it easier to access than U and it's also lower down than the PgUp position.

I put mine together with ease of use in mind. I compromised on pgup/dn though. I think keys below the home row are easier to reach than above. There has to be a compromise between ease of use and immediate understanding and Welly's suggestion does that very well. You can easily re-program the 'board later.

I always wondered if this is something difficult to change in Firmware or is key layout hardwired in?  The reason I'm asking is the 87U has the ability to download new firmware.   Would be slick to "reflash" your keyboard - grab it and run.

If it can d/l new firmware it should be possible. You'll need the software and data though.

The controller I use in the mini right now can be easily programmed over USB. But the final version may be micro controller based. In that case upgradeable firmware is a must.

lowpo - one question - will the Fn keys work if used in conjunction with CTRL and other keys? So for example, if you hit Fn+CTRL+Left("J"), will the cursor move one word at a time rather than one character at a time? (ie, for example, in MS Word).

Yes, would be unusable otherwise, I guess.

Here is the 2nd layer as of now:

[pic outdated, removed]

I moved Ins one to the left and put Del on the M key. I left Del on Fn+Backspace because it's easy to remember. However, Backspace and Del are each twice in the layout so I should remove the Del on Backspace. Too many delete keys may send the wrong message.

Looking at the layout now, I'd rather move Ins to the right of Del and the three rarely used ones to Q W E to reduce the clutter. I'd rather have empty keys around shift, enter and backspace. Less typos that way.

[lowpoly]

Changed, much better:

 [pic outdated, removed]

I'd like to put Del where PgDn is now but this would tear PgUp/Dn apart. So they would have to be moved below the arrow keys... It probably should stay like it is now.

[wellington1869]

Yes, would be unusable otherwise, I guess.

great, thanks lowpo. Wonderful looking board btw  It should ship with those markings on it (ie, without the alphabets but with the cursor control and shortcut markings).

One more question: will your Fn key's keycode be recognizable (and capturable) within Autohotkey so that people can use autohotkey to assign/bind further shortcuts to your Fn key?

Looking at the layout now, I'd rather move Ins to the right of Del and the three rarely used ones to Q W E to reduce the clutter. I'd rather have empty keys around shift, enter and backspace. Less typos that way.

I think thats a good idea.

Also one more suggestion: Fn+x/c/v = cut copy paste.   I find generally moving fingers to control key for those forces one often to look down to put index finger correctly on x,c,v.  Whereas with the thumb-actuated Fn key, index finger, middle finger, ring finger, can fall naturally onto x,c,v.

another suggestion: Fn+s,d => forward/back (browser media buttons)

and, perhaps, also Fn+r = maximize window; Fn+f=minimize window.

Anyway I think that covers all the major navigational things.   You're right tho about finding the right balance between essential functions versus not over-complicating the interface.  Some trial-and-error and 'tuning' work will clarify where that balance is.  You can always practice your set up by putting it into autohotkey and seeing how it 'feels' to you.

[lowpoly]

One more question: will your Fn key's keycode be recognizable (and capturable) within Autohotkey so that people can use autohotkey to assign/bind further shortcuts to your Fn key?

No, the Fn key is internal. You can assign it to a different key but you can't use it as your Autohotkey Fn key.

Also one more suggestion: Fn+x/c/v = cut copy paste.   I find generally moving fingers to control key for those forces one often to look down to put index finger correctly on x,c,v.  Whereas with the thumb-actuated Fn key, index finger, middle finger, ring finger, can fall naturally onto x,c,v.

another suggestion: Fn+s,d => forward/back (browser media buttons)

and, perhaps, also Fn+r = maximize window; Fn+f=minimize window.

Anyway I think that covers all the major navigational things.   You're right tho about finding the right balance between essential functions versus not over-complicating the interface.  Some trial-and-error and 'tuning' work will clarify where that balance is.  You can always practice your set up by putting it into autohotkey and seeing how it 'feels' to you.

If I'd add more keys it would be vol+- and mute on Fn-Z/X/C.

The examples you give should be done with user programming. Alternate layouts could be provided when shipping.

As for Ctrl-XCV, I have that right now on Fn-SDF. Very convenient but I don't want to put it into the final layout for clutter reasons.

[wellington1869]

As for Ctrl-XCV, I have that right now on Fn-SDF (Fn-A could be Ctrl-A).

thats cool  Tho i'd argue moving it to xcv would be easy to remember?

maybe Fn-A could be alt-tab? easy window switching.

[lowpoly]

Tho i'd argue moving it to xcv would be easy to remember?

True. And almost as easy to reach. While I woudn't put this in the final layout (I edited after you posted), this would actually collide with the idea to put sound on Fn-ZXC. So maybe reserve Fn-ASD for the sound.

maybe Fn-A could be alt-tab? easy window switching.

Good but also user setting, I think.

[wellington1869]

I think I understand your design philosophy here. Basically the keys you're putting on there are existing hardware keys moved from arrow cluster or numpad cluster.  Ie, you're not doing this as "shortcuts" for their own sake.  (Those would be up to the user to implement.)


(Contrast with, for example, the matias optimizer keyboard, which has function key shortcuts as shortcuts, despite being a full-sized board with all hardware keys already existing).

[Z Redux]

I moved Ins one to the left and put Del on the M key. I left Del on Fn+Backspace because it's easy to remember. However, Backspace and Del are each twice in the layout so I should remove the Del on Backspace. Too many delete keys may send the wrong message.

I really like the current ideology and progressing implementation of the second layer, with one caveat: removing Delete from Fn+Backspace.

When I learned to type, it was on a 101US Qwerty layout with no Fn key. To use the delete key, I had to leave the home row. If I was slowing down like that, going to the cursor keys then back to the home row and backspacing was quicker than integrating delete. So for me, making corrections by hitting the backspace key with my right pinky became ingrained to the point that I still tend to ignore the delete key - dedicated or Fn - while typing. The current placement on compact layouts (Fn+> or on the spacebar row) feels just as unnatural as going to the block. That's not to say that I don't use the delete key at all, I do, but only when reformatting or working in spreadsheets.

That said, I like the idea of having the delete key twice on the second layer (space, backspace) because it facilitates quick usage under both paradigms I associate with it: correction and formatting. Fn+Backspace seems more natural for corrections while typing... an inverse backspace that deletes the forward character instead of the rear. Likewise, Fn+Space inverts the spacing/formatting key by removing rather than adding.

It may sound odd, but having a split view of the delete key feels quite natural to me. Using the same muscle pattern for something I perceive as two separate uses is jarring and another reason why I learned to ignore the delete key for corrections.

I do agree, from an aesthetic view, that repeating the delete key on the same layer seems a bit cluttered... though in my opinion, the functional advantage outweighs the slight decline in form. Using the Fn key to invert the functions of both the space and backspace keys seems perfect.

Just wanted to share a different point of view. I'll be buying one either way.

-Z
P.S. Matte black with red accents is a timeless classic![/FONT]

[Rajagra]

I do agree, from an aesthetic view, that repeating the delete key on the same layer seems a bit cluttered... though in my opinion, the functional advantage outweighs the slight decline in form.

I agree. Functionality is more important than concerns about people's first impressions. I hope you can stick to your guns and make this the best product you can after considering the pros and cons of each option.

This board is looking fantastic. I don't like ugly bezels around my TVs or monitors, and I don't think keyboards need them either. A compact keyboard with no bezel and built-in trackpoint is pretty much my dream board.

[wellington1869]

I agree. Functionality is more important than concerns about people's first impressions. .

my guess is what lowpo is trying to do (with only having one delete key) is he's just moving the missing keys from arrow/numpad clusters onto the main part of the board (in a one-to-one way).

As opposed to making shortcuts for their own sake (ie, for instance by duplicating  a key (like delete) or by adding functions like media forw/back buttons (or even cut/copy/paste which arent 'real' buttons but shortcuts on existing buttons)).

I think he feels that those things should be user-created on their own (ie, using autohotkey or some similar software key binding program).

(Or at least, I think thats the philosohpy that he seems to be pursuing). Whether to stick with that, or move into a slightly different philosophy that says "build-in shortcut keys if they make sense", is a different question.  Personally I'd do the latter, but then risk 'busying up' the interface since adding shortcut keys (or duplicates) can easily become a slippery slope.  And its true that I think he has a point that those things COULD be added by the user, separately, quite easily.

[wellington1869]

No, the Fn key is internal. You can assign it to a different key but you can't use it as your Autohotkey Fn key

Thats cool.   If the Fn key is assigned to a different key by the user (how is that done, btw - with dipswitches?), then can the user (using autohotkey or keybinding program) then assign the original swirl key to, say, the windows key? (to take an example).  Just wondering how flexible/fixed will be the Fn-Swirl key. Thanks.

[lowpoly]

I really like the current ideology and progressing implementation of the second layer, with one caveat: removing Delete from Fn+Backspace.

I put it back. It doesn't make the layout look more complex so it doesn't hurt. The only reason I removed it was that people could ask, "why does this 'board need four delete keys? Will my typing be that bad?". The answer, of course, is convenience. I'll put it in the FAQ.

my guess is what lowpo is trying to do (with only having one delete key) is he's just moving the missing keys from arrow/numpad clusters onto the main part of the board (in a one-to-one way).

As opposed to making shortcuts for their own sake (ie, for instance by duplicating  a key (like delete) or by adding functions like media forw/back buttons (or even cut/copy/paste which arent 'real' buttons but shortcuts on existing buttons)).

I think he feels that those things should be user-created on their own (ie, using autohotkey or some similar software key binding program).

(Or at least, I think thats the philosohpy that he seems to be pursuing). Whether to stick with that, or move into a slightly different philosophy that says "build-in shortcut keys if they make sense", is a different question.  Personally I'd do the latter, but then risk 'busying up' the interface since adding shortcut keys (or duplicates) can easily become a slippery slope.  And its true that I think he has a point that those things COULD be added by the user, separately, quite easily.

Basically true. There are compromises however. And I want to look at the layout and say "that looks easy" which would be hard to press into a rule set. Of course it's tempting to add all kinds of useful shortcuts, especially with a 2nd function layer. But it won't work for everyone so people are better off doing their own layouts.

And you won't need Autohotkey. See below.

Thats cool.   If the Fn key is assigned to a different key by the user (how is that done, btw - with dipswitches?), then can the user (using autohotkey or keybinding program) then assign the original swirl key to, say, the windows key? (to take an example).  Just wondering how flexible/fixed will be the Fn-Swirl key. Thanks.

Right now there is a text file with the rows and columns where you edit the scan cods for the keys. Then you start a small program, connect the keyboard and the layout is automatically downloaded to the keyboard. You can then disconnect the keyboard and connect to a different machine and it will have the new layout.

Not really end-user ready but the software does it's job. To make a key a Fn key you just put $ff into the specific row/column. So, every key can be the Fn key.

Here is the current layout, I moved the PrtSc Block one key to the right to put it on the stronger fingers (semi-rule) and leave a free key between Tab, Ctrl, etc. When adding sound on SDF and clipboard on XCV this will make a nice 3x3 block.

[wellington1869]

Right now there is a text file with the rows and columns where you edit the scan cods for the keys. Then you start a small program, connect the keyboard and the layout is automatically downloaded to the keyboard

Fantastic.

One suggestion - consider removing the Fn-space for backspace.  For one thing the delete key is already duplicated; but more importantly, I believe Fn-Space will interefere when typing fast. For example, for a short while I had put ALT-Space as backspace on my keyboard (via autohotkey). What kept happening was - when i was typing fast and using the alt key for other shortcuts (as the swirl key too will be used for other shortcuts), and then you hit space to continue typing the next word, and often times your thumb hasnt left the ALT (in this case, Fn) key yet, and so instead of a space, you get a backspace.

This was one of those ergo-problems that only happened on the spacebar, in part I think because the spacebar is so often used and its so big and easy to hit, that people may tend to hit it faster/sooner than other keys, and often times they havent let go of the Fn key yet when they hit it, when typing fast.

[lowpoly]

I must admit that I love the Fn-space backspace. When I haven't used the mini for some time it only takes me a few minutes to get used to fn-space again (unlike other combinations).

Well, as soon as you add more fn shortcuts you are using the layout software anyway and can easily remove this one. It would only be a problem if it would interfere with the standard 2nd layer layout. More likely to happen with Alt as this is being used extensively by programs as well.

[wellington1869]

Right now there is a text file with the rows and columns where you edit the scan cods for the keys. Then you start a small program, connect the keyboard and the layout is automatically downloaded to the keyboard

Btw lowpo - if your keyboard's firmware/layout is that easily re-programmable, that has got to be THE most major selling point and feature of this keyboard (aside from its killer looks). I hope you are appropriately focusing on that feature when you talk to the VC folks, cuz for all the geeks out there, this is a truly unique and very useful feature. I dont know of any other keyboard that is so easily reprogrammable as this.  (For that matter, I dont know of any reprogrammable keyboard, period, still in production today! Let alone one that looks like this)

[fuzzybyte]

no scroll wheel?

[lowpoly]

No. I plan to add a middle button, a black horizontal stripe of plastic between the buttons that are already there. Middle button + pointing stick = scrolling.

As for updates, I'm under heavy workload right now so things progress slowly. Still working on the layouts and text for the preview site.

I also made a set of white keys but forgot my camera somewhere. Pics soon.

[o2dazone]

I also made a set of white keys but forgot my camera somewhere. Pics soon.

!!!

[lowpoly]

Someone already posted some of my pics:

http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/?mid=photo&page=31&document_srl=581774
http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/?mid=photo&page=31&document_srl=581763

One of the comments was "finally something new", IIRC. Exactly like you said.

The preview site will be english, german (my home market), japanese, korean.

I'll need some help with translation for Korean so I'm going to post in the english kbdmania forum when the website is a bit more final.

[lowpoly]

I finished the designs for the preview site. Including the configurator and the programming software. Also some text already done.

I'd appreciate some input but hesitate to put this in the public because I haven't trademarked the names yet. I'm not that sure about the names, so there's some reluctance.

For now,  please PM me for the URL and password. Or post a request here. My apologies to non-members.

Oh, and these are just pics. Prev/next links in the upper right.

[rdjack21]

Yes be very careful with your names and stuff if you intend to trademark them.

I've been lurking on this thread for a bit and really have to say I like where you are going with this board. I really like the programmability of it which is going to be one of if not the biggest selling point of the board to the mass market. I wish I could get a HHKB Pro that was similarly programmable or that you could make this board with Topre switches. But no matter I still think you have a winner.

EDIT: Fix up to some bad typing I've been coding to long today.

[lowpoly]

Ah, I changed "lurkers" to "non-members" in my previous post. That was what I meant.

Not sure how much and where I'm going to trademark.

[fuzzybyte]

woah, the previews look super awesome.

i don't think the name matters much as long as it's a good product. i'm sure it would sell well even if you would name it something unimaginative like Model M.

[itlnstln]

woah, the previews look super awesome.
 
i don't think the name matters much as long as it's a good product. i'm sure it would sell well even if you would name it something unimaginative like Model M.

I would name it the Model L, or the Realpoly, or the Majespoly.

[rdjack21]

I would think "Type-in-Style M?" Where if he decides to offer the board in different switches he could just change the M number so:

M1 - Topre (wishful thinking )
M2 - Blue Cherry
M3 - Brown Cherry
M4 - BS
M5 - Alps White
M6 - Alps Black
ect...

Or what ever he wants. Anyways just a thought.

[Rajagra]

Another thought. Might it be worth having a Fn-Lock feature? E.g. pressing both left and right Fn keys would set Fn-Lock, pressing both again would release it. (Or maybe pressing either on its own to release? Or even resetting after an inactive timeout period.)

This might not be useful for the standard layout, but it could be handy for user defined keys.

(Hope this hasn't already been discussed.)

[bigpook]

I would name it the Model L, or the Realpoly, or the Majespoly.

NewM

New-M

New M

my 2 cents

[Kraicheck]

I actually like the original working title: the trackpoint mini.
You never need to explain its use, it's right there in the name.
Rolls off the tongue rather pleasantly too.

Could you get sued for using the word "trackpoint"?

[keyb_gr]

That's still an IBM trademark I guess, so one would have to acknowledge that. Something with "Mini" wouldn't be that bad though. Hmm, what else could one call a genuine geekboard...?

[lal]

Please keep the "M" out of the picture.  This board has absolutely nothing to do with it.

What about "Miniclick"?

[bigpook]

I wasn't thinking of the Model M though, I was thinking of Neuman on Seinfeld.
How about calling it "the betty"?

[lowpoly]

Another thought. Might it be worth having a Fn-Lock feature? E.g. pressing both left and right Fn keys would set Fn-Lock, pressing both again would release it. (Or maybe pressing either on its own to release? Or even resetting after an inactive timeout period.)

This might not be useful for the standard layout, but it could be handy for user defined keys.

I cannot say if the final controller will allow this. There's always the possibility to use a mechanical locking switch. I agree that something like this would make sense, for ex. for using QWERTY on layer 1 and Colemak on layer 3. I have the mechanical switch already on my list as an add-on for the shop.

I actually like the original working title: the trackpoint mini.
You never need to explain its use, it's right there in the name.
Rolls off the tongue rather pleasantly too.

Could you get sued for using the word "trackpoint"?

Can't use Trackpoint, that would be an invitation for some nasty letters. I only use it with my prototype because it uses an actual Trackpoint. Even there I try to get rid of the word.


Thanks for the great name suggestions. Some were very close to my runner-ups. Which I'll keep for myself right now as I may need them in the future. I wouldn't have started looking for a new name until I ditched the old one. In any case, there are two names, one for a product group, one for the actual 'board model. At least one of these has to start with a G as I want to keep the swirl, if possible.

I have/had some problems with the name being too pompous or lacking subtlety. As this didn't come up yet and I got some encouragement, I'll stick with it for now. The model name will look great on t-shirts. I already made some designs, have to check the local shops for printing.

So, programming the preview site and the trademark stuff are next. I also didn't forget the white keycap pics (one of the swirl stickers I printed is already wearing off, lol).

[lowpoly]

It is a great name and uses a very fashionable name element that does well. Also allows for a product line. Maybe pompous (like elitekeyboards) but that's marketing. Could have been worse. You could have been an American who orders keyboards in Taiwan and called it "Das Keyboard" or something. But this one has a definite positive cognitive association though.

Thanks for the comment (and for editing the name out).

White keycaps:









I have to thank lal who gave me a good deal on the donor board. I hope you don't mind I used it for this.

I semi-ruined the G key because I didn't pay attention and started filing off the wrong corner. As the cutout is too big anyway I'll do G and H again when I remove the symbols. On the black caps this didn't stand out as much.

I sanded off the symbols on some keys which is hard work and will not come out perfect. PBT is tough stuff.

The left swirl is already wearing off. Laser printed on matte transparent foil. Supposedly weather proof but apparently not wear proof.

[lal]

Looks fantastic!

I have to thank lal who gave me a good deal on the donor board. I hope you don't mind I used it for this.

No, I'm honored  I felt the same about that deal btw.

[rdjack21]

Wow I'm liking that white one better than the black. It just needs a Red Esc key to finish it off.

Also just wondering when you get around to actual production what switch are you going to use? Browns or Blues

[lowpoly]

Browns, blues and reds if it works out like I want it.

[o2dazone]

sexyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[wellington1869]

lowpo, if you can convince somene to manufacture this, you'll all make millions. I cant believe the venture capitalists can be so thick as to not realize that.

[lowpoly]

They had no chance yet to realize it. I had this one meeting I wrote about and decided to go into the next one with better preparation (the preview site).

I wish I could put more time into this right now.

[wellington1869]

I wish I could put more time into this right now.

you really should bro. keyboard fans are obviously convinced you've got a winner here.

Even i would buy the blue cherry version I'm not a fan of the cherries but i'd love to have that form factor

[inornate]

lowpoly/ what controller are you using now? I heard that it's reprogrammable. - got interested.

[lowpoly]

lowpoly/ what controller are you using now? I heard that it's reprogrammable. - got interested.

GETT TKC8000. It is tiny. 45x25mm.

It is based on the KeyWarrior by CodeMercenaries.

The only disadvantage with this chip right now is the Fn rollover behavior mentioned earlier in the thread. And maybe that the USB/PS2 selection depends on the cable/connector used. Would be better if it happened inside the chip so a simple adapter could be used on a USB cable.

[talis]

Is that a Cypress controller they're using?  I keep thinking about switching to them over the PIC I'm using now for my custom controller.  I'd be interested to know the exact part number if you know it.

[lowpoly]

Have to check.

Have two more of the GETT controllers on the shelf. Connected to the keyboards nobody else wanted when they appeared on ebay.

[yinzen]

I am *so* looking forward to being able to own one of these keybaords *droool* (oh, who am I kididng I will probably own 3 so I can have one of each keyswitch type :happy:).

Notwithstanding the incredible minimalist design and built in trackpoint, I am most excited about the reprogrammable firmware.  I have wanted so much to make a layout that uses capslock as a meta key and then have the vi cursor movements available everywhere, as these are the best format for moving a cursor around imo, rarely need to leave the homerow that way.  

I can't wait, please make sure reprogramming is as easy as possible and as flexible as possible!  Also, will it be able to make macros too?  Like a specified keycombo sends a series of keycodes instead of just 1:1 mapping?

[lowpoly]

The "better" version of the controller I use now allows macros and 3 layers. The number of macros is limited (like 30 or 40) but that will do I think, you still can re-program the other keys.

I think I'll prefer a micro controller based solution to allow for firmware updates as well. So how much memory there'll be is unclear as of now.