What gripes do you have about the keyboard industry?

[10centNickle]

As we all know, Drop, formerly Massdrop, has a unique business model that allows for manufacturers to score customers and for customers to get goods at a discount price.  Drop's business model is one that circumvents the eternal process of out-of-stock items.  What gripes do you have about buying keyboards, and how would you like it addressed (e.g. group buys taking too long to ship, aftermarket prices too high, etc.)?

[yui]

2 biggest gripes are some of the anti innovation bull**** some peoples pull on a very regular basis and the fact that some seller ship via Fedex without saying, and so i end up having to go fetch it 75km away from were i live because Fedex is not willing to ship to my address, although still also add 50 euros of import duty + actual import duty to everything (last time it happened i had 51.40 euros to pay, 1.4 of actual import duties and 50 of Fedex, and the package was damaged and did not arrive on time or at my address)

[Rebrean]

Yeah, that's very frustrating, indeed.

[zslane]

My biggest gripe is the insistence of custom keyboard makers to keep coming out with alternate layouts for which there are very few (custom) keycap sets that match. If your layout forces people to use blanks, flat uniform profiles, or keycaps with the wrong row profile in certain positions, then you've failed.

[MIGHTY CHICKEN]

Not sure if its a gripe, but hobby has grown a lot in the pass year, but manufacturers have not been able to upgrade to keep up with demand now that almost every large keycap manu is backed up for months

[ideus]

Manufacturers of other products that are made overseas—chess sets, for example—have managed to secure contracts for worldwide free shipping, I wonder why venues like Drop, that sell items in the hundreds cannot do the same.

[F eq ma]

Vendors who keep products on their web site, but are constantly out of stock and no plans to restock.    Don't make me scroll through 15 pages of out of stock products in your “shop”.   Its like they want to show off their past group buys for the cool factor.

[MIGHTY CHICKEN]

Vendors who keep products on their web site, but are constantly out of stock and no plans to restock.    Don't make me scroll through 15 pages of out of stock products in your “shop”.   Its like they want to show off their past group buys for the cool factor.

I guess that would be part of it, I don't much like it either, but I get it for archival purposes and that people can see old product listings for whatever they need, color codes, prices, options etc.

[Learis]

Too much key, not enough board.

[Leslieann]

some of the anti innovation bull**** some peoples pull on a very regular basis

They are not innovative, they are iterative.

Keyboards peaked in the 80's and have only been iterative changes ever since, so little in fact that you can still use keyboards from the 80's without any real drawbacks.

[rowdy]

Is this having a go at Drop?

My last couple of drops have shipped via Germany, for some reason (going from the US to Australia).  That's fine, except it introduces an additional 2 or 3 weeks delay.

Otherwise in general there are far too many choices these days.  It's too hard to keep up.

[Leopard223]

The lack of info and the focus on hype, colorways and sound tests. 
Interested in a non-super-popular switch? prepare to dive into the internet to find any info, since chances are you'll only find sound tests of it, and very little info from people who can't manage to describe switch feeling                                                   

[HungerMechanic]

Yes, much discussion is centered around a few popular switches. Good luck finding info about more 'obscure' switches in current production. Imagine if you like light tactiles, and want information about Everglide Jade Green, KTT Matcha, RARA V2, TTC switches, and so on.

There's also a huge focus on 'thock,' as if that's a universal property to be sought in a keyboard.

Lots of reviews lately where you can hear ping and scratch and high-pitched noises when they do decide to do a sound test, and the reviewer will say something like "they sound great to me, and are my new favourite tactile. But I won't be typing on it since I type on hyperglide Blacks." You had shifty reviewers doing this with recent TKC and JWK tactiles like Dragonfruit and Pewter.

[In fact, trying to get objective information about tactiles is difficult. Lots more to measure than with linears.]

New colourways are almost useless. Want to see innovation in tactile stems, at the very least, and more attention to leaf and spring quality. New-production housings that still need filming in mid-2021. Lack of plate options in custom kits.

GMK sets priced at like 500 sales when you know they are going to get 2000-3000. Accent kits that cost $50-80 or more.

[phinix]

I'll have a go, why not:)

- production times - waiting a year or so for a keycaps set to be produced; GMK takes takes over a year even with this new prod line they installed this year (WTF), KAT - taking ages, issue, changes in production etc; nobody else is picking it up; why there's only few good manufacturers of caps (PMK and GMK in first positions)
- items not in stock - only GBs a real source of stuff - you miss it - you lose it, best scenario you will wait for second round in few years
- repeatable keycaps color schemes - they keep coming in similar color schemes, nothing really new or bigger difference - for example so many brighter alphas-dark mods sets, not the other way around
- no much improvements in mechanics - keyboard mounting styles - we've had gasket mount for years - but most of them are not proper gasket mounts; I have a feeling like keyboards don't evolve
- no new switches, we're riding MX to death, old school stuff left to die, nothing new on horizon? (skipping opticals)
- why do we have to mod everything? Why not sell actual ready product that has all what we do when modding our keyboards/switches? It all should be done during production, at least all those things that are a must, not preference.
- aftermarket prices - few days ago I paid $300 (including customs + vat) for CRP caps TKL size set, f*** hell...

[HungerMechanic]

Most tactiles are still based on Holy Panda and T1 designs, and that includes Bobas, AKKO Ocean Blue, and so on. Still hard to find people innovating based on the Brown and Clear stem. Even Durock's new tactiles seem to scaled-down T1s! No pre-travel.

On the plus side, there seems to be a movement towards good, affordable keyboards as seen in the KBD67 Lite and other Lite variants, IKKI68 Aurora, all started by boards like the NK65. Often, they have different case and plate options, even PCB options, so that you can actually make a good keyboard from affordable parts. Now if we can only get a KBD8X Lite...

[phinix]

Most tactiles are still based on Holy Panda and T1 designs, and that includes Bobas, AKKO Ocean Blue, and so on. Still hard to find people innovating based on the Brown and Clear stem. Even Durock's new tactiles seem to scaled-down T1s! No pre-travel.

On the plus side, there seems to be a movement towards good, affordable keyboards as seen in the KBD67 Lite and other Lite variants, IKKI68 Aurora, all started by boards like the NK65. Often, they have different case and plate options, even PCB options, so that you can actually make a good keyboard from affordable parts. Now if we can only get a KBD8X Lite...

Yeah, I would love to get smoky transparent pc TKL keeb in style of 67 lite.

[HungerMechanic]

I don't like to belabour a point, but that's exactly what KBDFans should develop next.

[yui]

The lack of info and the focus on hype, colorways and sound tests. 
Interested in a non-super-popular switch? prepare to dive into the internet to find any info, since chances are you'll only find sound tests of it, and very little info from people who can't manage to describe switch feeling                                                   

we should send more switches to Chyros, he only knows how to describe them impartially (joking, pretty sure others do too, just he got the best word choices )

[HungerMechanic]

Send him some recolours of Gateron Brown, like Gateron Orange. [Factory Lubed, for additional pleasure.]

[Leopard223]

Yes, much discussion is centered around a few popular switches. Good luck finding info about more 'obscure' switches in current production. Imagine if you like light tactiles, and want information about Everglide Jade Green, KTT Matcha, RARA V2, TTC switches, and so on.

There's also a huge focus on 'thock,' as if that's a universal property to be sought in a keyboard.

Lots of reviews lately where you can hear ping and scratch and high-pitched noises when they do decide to do a sound test, and the reviewer will say something like "they sound great to me, and are my new favourite tactile. But I won't be typing on it since I type on hyperglide Blacks." You had shifty reviewers doing this with recent TKC and JWK tactiles like Dragonfruit and Pewter.

[In fact, trying to get objective information about tactiles is difficult. Lots more to measure than with linears.]

New colourways are almost useless. Want to see innovation in tactile stems, at the very least, and more attention to leaf and spring quality. New-production housings that still need filming in mid-2021. Lack of plate options in custom kits.

GMK sets priced at like 500 sales when you know they are going to get 2000-3000. Accent kits that cost $50-80 or more.

Couldn't agree more with your comment, I'm interested in getting the new Lavender switch from Akko which seems like a heavier Ocean Blue so I've checked Ocean Blue to see reviews, almost zero info altough the switch is out for quite a bit of time, but million sound tests.
A lot of people mistake echo for thock, as I see it, thock is low pitched bottom out of a switch, not a super hollow case that resonates the bottom out of your very lubed switch.

People really have a hard time to describe switch feel, it's not easy but saying sharp or rounded tactility or "between MX brown and Zealios V2", is pretty broad, people can compare them to other tactiles at the very least, I personally have a bit of switch sample collection and always hope for a switch omparison..

[HungerMechanic]

Yeah, there seems to be a lack of experience in the 'keyboard community' with the term 'thock.'

Because it could mean a muffled but deep sound, a potentially rich sound, associated with some silenced EC or dampened MX boards. Or not even muffled, just deep and thocky, maybe clacky. But yes, a lot of people seem to think that the echo in a board or reverberation is 'thock.'

This allows manufacturers to build simple long-pole switches, and people put them in a cheap hollow-sounding board, and suddenly they have 'thock.' But this in my view is not an example of good manufacturing.

[Also, people just lube everything with 205g0 including light tactiles, including the legs, so they get a low-pitched sound. Everything sacrificed to it.]

And yeah, the lack of multiple reviews to look at for less-common switches is irksome. I found some SP Star switches that I liked, such as Nana and Meteor Orange. It was difficult finding info on a Brown-like light tactile like Meteor Orange, you have to trawl through tiny threads in forums. You just have to buy samples of all the switches for yourself. And yes, there are sound tests, but that doesn't tell me much about the operating characteristics of the switch.

The solution seems to be to buy from those people who sell sample packs, you can get these 'obscure' switches sent right to you.

It was helpful when Gazzew employed terms such as "p-shaped," "P-shaped," and "D-shaped" bump. People need to talk about pre-travel, bump size and resistance, and post-travel. Strength of tactile leaf. Type of spring, etc...

[Leopard223]

Yeah, there seems to be a lack of experience in the 'keyboard community' with the term 'thock.'

Because it could mean a muffled but deep sound, a potentially rich sound, associated with some silenced EC or dampened MX boards. Or not even muffled, just deep and thocky, maybe clacky. But yes, a lot of people seem to think that the echo in a board or reverberation is 'thock.'

This allows manufacturers to build simple long-pole switches, and people put them in a cheap hollow-sounding board, and suddenly they have 'thock.' But this in my view is not an example of good manufacturing.

[Also, people just lube everything with 205g0 including light tactiles, including the legs, so they get a low-pitched sound. Everything sacrificed to it.]

And yeah, the lack of multiple reviews to look at for less-common switches is irksome. I found some SP Star switches that I liked, such as Nana and Meteor Orange. It was difficult finding info on a Brown-like light tactile like Meteor Orange, you have to trawl through tiny threads in forums. You just have to buy samples of all the switches for yourself. And yes, there are sound tests, but that doesn't tell me much about the operating characteristics of the switch.

The solution seems to be to buy from those people who sell sample packs, you can get these 'obscure' switches sent right to you.

It was helpful when Gazzew employed terms such as "p-shaped," "P-shaped," and "D-shaped" bump. People need to talk about pre-travel, bump size and resistance, and post-travel. Strength of tactile leaf. Type of spring, etc...

I've found AliExpress to be a great source for switches, aside for the low prices and switch sample packs, often big stores will comply and include a switch sample if you'll ask, I've got plenty of switch samples to get a gripe about the big variety of switch types, materials and styles (such as long pole switches).

[Leslieann]

there seems to be a lack of experience in the 'keyboard community'

Fixed that for you.
It's a problem because the buy in cost is high, you can't easily get 80 identical keyboards other than switches to test them all.

This is a hobby, unless you build them for people your actual experience is always going to be narrow. Same thing happens with buying cars and computers, most people really have no idea what brands and models are reliable or a good deal, they go by popularity or what their parents/friends did. Ask a mechanic or computer tech and you will get an earful, some will contradict each other but you can get a general consensus pretty fast.

As for reviewers, yes they have experience, but the experience is personal and worse, Youtube and such NEVER replicates sound properly. People would be amazed just how much the sound gets altered by electronics, on their end and yours. While many try and tune for color, we never seem to really tune anything for audio and just take it for granted other than volume and many can't even get that consistent.

[Kevadu]

The whole concept that creating tactility through small alterations in the slider/housing shape is a good idea.  It isn't, it's a terrible idea.  Can we get some actual innovation?

Kailh's clickbars were a breath of fresh air since they were something actually new for clicky switches, but there's been nothing like that for tactiles.

[geauxflying]

QMK is pretty miserable for anyone not versed in Python (which is an extremely large percentage of all keyboard users).

Want your rotary encoder to work? You can't use the QMK configurator.
Want to do basic macros?  Want to launch an app other than the windows calculator with a keystroke? Want to map special characters like a section sign (§) to a key? Good f'n luck.

If I'm a keyboard maker, and QMK is only usable by a small fraction of my customers, then it's not really worth it to add QMK support.

[yui]

isn't QMK code in C? likely a bit harder than python even but also with a much larger user base, and that would be nice if via had better macro support yeah and any support for encoders

[phinix]

Don't get me started on QMK/VIA - I wanted to have a simple £ sign in macro on ANSI keyboard - there is NO WAY to do that in either QMK or VIA.

Imagine all those foreign users that miss special characters on their ANSI keyboard and cannot add them...

[Kevadu]

Don't get me started on QMK/VIA - I wanted to have a simple £ sign in macro on ANSI keyboard - there is NO WAY to do that in either QMK or VIA.

There isn't?

Imagine all those foreign users that miss special characters on their ANSI keyboard and cannot add them...

Well they don't have to go ANSI...

Basically the 2nd link describes how different language options used to work.  It's not a QMK thing, it's a limitation of older OS and keyboard protocols.  Basically depending on your OS language settings the same keycodes are mapped to different characters.

Today we have unicode but it's still a relatively modern creation (compared to keyboards anyway).  If you want to have an otherwise ANSI keyboard with a few special character options then unicode would be the way to do it.  Yes unicode can get complicated but it's extremely powerful.

[HungerMechanic]

The whole concept that creating tactility through small alterations in the slider/housing shape is a good idea.  It isn't, it's a terrible idea.  Can we get some actual innovation?

Kailh's clickbars were a breath of fresh air since they were something actually new for clicky switches, but there's been nothing like that for tactiles.

I guess we're all waiting on the mythical 3-in-1 ALPS-like switch from Zeal.

Seriously, we need more manufacturers to do what Kailh did with the BOX design. You can build non-Cherry mechanisms in MX-compatible housings.

[phinix]

Don't get me started on QMK/VIA - I wanted to have a simple £ sign in macro on ANSI keyboard - there is NO WAY to do that in either QMK or VIA.

There isn't?

Imagine all those foreign users that miss special characters on their ANSI keyboard and cannot add them...

Well they don't have to go ANSI...

Basically the 2nd link describes how different language options used to work.  It's not a QMK thing, it's a limitation of older OS and keyboard protocols.  Basically depending on your OS language settings the same keycodes are mapped to different characters.

Today we have unicode but it's still a relatively modern creation (compared to keyboards anyway).  If you want to have an otherwise ANSI keyboard with a few special character options then unicode would be the way to do it.  Yes unicode can get complicated but it's extremely powerful.

Nope, nothing there, first link doesn't work.
Show me QMK code for £ sign and I'll buy you a beer

[geauxflying]

Could do a macro based on the character map... (alt + 0163). Not very elegant.

[phinix]

Could do a macro based on the character map... (alt + 0163). Not very elegant.

OK and how to do that?

[geauxflying]

Could do a macro based on the character map... (alt + 0163). Not very elegant.

OK and how to do that?

I don't doubt one of the programming guys on a site called "geekhack" could help you with this. I'm really a beginner at QMK but I've watched a bunch of youtube videos the last few days. This Chokkan guy has some good videos. You'll probably have to watch more than just one video. I've had very limited success (but it's doable by people who know how to do it).

Here's a brief video about macros:

[10centNickle]

Ok lets switch it up: What do you want to see from manufacturers?

[geauxflying]

Ok lets switch it up: What do you want to see from manufacturers?

More keycaps that aren’t Cherry or OEM. (Especially KAT, is very nice to type on)
Better clicky switches (think blue alps, Kailh has no competition right now).
More full size custom boards
Mirrored 10-key with enter key on left side for left handed typist.
More thought about other input devices (mice)
More VIA/VIAL compatibility.

[HungerMechanic]

-Yeah, more full-size. And a KBD8X Lite that is as good and affordable as the KBD67 Lite. [Not the same price, obviously.]

-Serious investment into light tactiles. That means research into ergonomic stems with good pre-travel and ramp-up, post travel. Attention to leafs, so they provide some tactility and don't ping. Lubed, high-quality springs. Tight housings.

-Alternate methods of providing clickiness and tactility, such as ALPS-like leafs and other alternatives.

-Stores that provide custom plates in POM or polycarbonate that just need a plate file to operate.

-Keyboard GBs are connected to custom plate shops so you can get the plates even if the GB doesn't manufacture them.

-Reviews that actually focus on the relevant operational characteristics of the switch, not just typing sound.

-GBs for affordable accent kits for popular colourways [9009, Honeywell, Muted, etc...], maybe all-in-one.

-Bring back (deliberately) the colour-matching mishap sets that created fun products anyway, like Necro.

-Greater access to Progressive springs.

[HungerMechanic]

-Also, can we get reasonable keycap trays available in-stock at several retailers? For Cherry/OEM-sized, and others for high-profile keycaps?

[yui]

Ok lets switch it up: What do you want to see from manufacturers?

More keycaps that aren’t Cherry or OEM. (Especially KAT, is very nice to type on)
Better clicky switches (think blue alps, Kailh has no competition right now).
More full size custom boards
Mirrored 10-key with enter key on left side for left handed typist.
More thought about other input devices (mice)
More VIA/VIAL compatibility.

i agree with pretty much all but even though using my pc left handed i do not see the benefit of left handed keyboard, and i'd love to see alps keyset, would be nice to put more colorful caps on my focus boards, and maybe have the right layout on it too. and i would love to see more trackball integrated in keyboards, it is rather nice, makes the mouse to typing delay shorter.

[Leopard223]

I'll add another one, that Kailh is the innovative brand that we need but don't deserve, it truley is underrated to have this brand in the days when it's all about hype, colorways and soundtests.
They continuously come up with new switch designs and ideas, they aren't always successful but always uniqe and serve purpose, the hotswap sockets, BOX switches, the clickbar, Kailh's housing (no need for film), POM switches, switches that don't interfere with Cherry profile keycaps on north facing board, many alterations of the switches for every preference, etc.

And the most recent idea I've seen that I'm really looking forward to, muted Jades.

[HungerMechanic]

Yeah, Kailh gets a lot of flack, some of it well-deserved. But seeing them as a '2018 brand' as they are in some quarters is unfair.

They have hits and misses, but at least they are trying. Certain manufacturers [ahem Gateron, Durock] like to print dozens of colours of the same switch as if it's something special. Have they innovated a new click mechanism?

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take, at least Kailh takes shots.

[yui]

Took Cherry longer than Gateron to innovate, gat got the yellow weighing and silent for most of their non clicky switches. although yes Kailh is the crazy scientist compared to all the others

[Findecanor]

This thread reminded me that there had been another manufacturer than Cherry or Kailh that made yet another clicky switch mechanism, but I couldn't remember the brand ...

When searching for it, I stumbled over yet another example of Cherry falling behind:
Cooler Master is going from using Cherry MX Low Profile to using clones from TTC. TTC makes clicky and tactile variants while Cherry only makes boring linears.

[Leslieann]

Took Cherry longer than Gateron to innovate,

That's because they didn't need to, they had a near monopoly up till that point.

They didn't have to do anything.

[jamster]

Manufacturers of other products that are made overseas—chess sets, for example—have managed to secure contracts for worldwide free shipping, I wonder why venues like Drop, that sell items in the hundreds cannot do the same.

Isn't this something to do with global postal agreements, and China being classed as some sort of 'developing nation' and entitled to some kind of massively subsidised shipping arrangement?

On the other hand, Drop has their production shipped en masse in a container to somewhere in the US where it's inspected then broken up into Fedex/UPS.

[Leslieann]

Isn't this something to do with global postal agreements, and China being classed as some sort of 'developing nation' and entitled to some kind of massively subsidised shipping arrangement?

This.
They're working to change that.

[Findecanor]

And over here in Sweden the postal service's mitigation against the masses of Chinese packages have resulted in all small packages from outside the EU being held a while and slapped with taxes and fees.
Solutions have been set up and are in the works for making larger organisations do taxation at their end and thus lowering the hassle, delays and fees for the consumers — but only when buying from them.
The time when it was feasible for me to order specific enthusiast-stuff from small businesses in the US are over.

[tiltowait]

Could do a macro based on the character map... (alt + 0163). Not very elegant.

OK and how to do that?

QMK is hardly user-friendly, but it's definitely doable.

https://beta.docs.qmk.fm/using-qmk/advanced-keycodes/feature_macros

You'll need a SEND_STRING("£");

If you're on a Mac, it's markedly easier since you don't need to deal with macros at all and can, in fact, configure it in the online configurator. Just need A(KC_3) on a key.

[Volny]

My biggest gripe is with the sheer lack of diversity. The focus is so heavy on aesthetics that functionality seems continually minimised. You can have absolutely any type of keyboard you want, as long as it's small. Occasionally a full-size keyboard or DIY kit will show up somewhere, but then it's just a bog-standard full-size layout. While unorthodox and innovative layouts abound in the smaller form factors, almost no one seems to try and innovate or improve upon the full-size layout (let alone expand on it).

I can't easily think of another industry where the enthusiasts are so heavily grouped on a single, lighter side of the spectrum. Most people own a run-of-the-mill bike. Then on one side you get expensive, ultra-light road racing bikes that have been stripped of mudguards, kickstands, or even gears or brakes. On the other side you get expensive mountain bikes with extra tread, extra suspension, extra heft. On another side you get commuter bikes with panniers and rear-view mirrors or child wagons, or tandems, etc. The layperson's bike sits somewhere in the middle of all that, with various niches available that sprout from there, for those who are willing to pay them. But when it comes to keyboards, the layperson's keyboard is like a Rolls Royce (albeit a really cheaply-built, rattly knock-off), with numpad, media keys, and no need to resort to convoluted layers and forced extra key-presses. Anyone who wants to customise their keyboard beyond that has little choice but to look downwards.

[HungerMechanic]

Yeah, it's a pretty sorry state right now if you want affordable options in anything TKL or full-size. Not to mention innovation.

[tiltowait]

Custom firmware at least allows individual users personalized innovation, but I agree that there's a sense of stagnation. I got out of the hobby for several years and was a bit disappointed to find that the keyboards-as-fashion-accessories trend has only accelerated. They look nice, but they're essentially unchanged since I first got into the hobby.

[HungerMechanic]

You can have absolutely any type of keyboard you want, as long as it's small. Occasionally a full-size keyboard or DIY kit will show up somewhere, but then it's just a bog-standard full-size layout.

I can't easily think of another industry where the enthusiasts are so heavily grouped on a single, lighter side of the spectrum. But when it comes to keyboards, the layperson's keyboard is like a Rolls Royce (albeit a really cheaply-built, rattly knock-off), with numpad, media keys, and no need to resort to convoluted layers and forced extra key-presses. Anyone who wants to customise their keyboard beyond that has little choice but to look downwards.

I just want to reiterate what Volny said about the shoddy build quality of pre-built MX keyboards.

Some of us are indeed looking for TKL and full-size keyboards, and pre-builts dominate that space.

Volny compared full-size pre-builts to a Rolls Royce [in design] "albeit a really cheaply-built, rattly knock-off."

That's so true! The design characteristics of large keyboards can be quite ample. But imagine a pre-built MX tactile full-size keyboard. You'll have:

-spring ping
-relatively high-pitched switch noise
-audible sandiness and scratchiness

-inconsistent sound profile across the keyboard
-ticking stabilizers

-large stabilized keys wobble or go angles other than flat

-crudely sculpted keycaps with horrible gamer fonts or boring legends that will wear away


-inconsistent factory spring weights


What's the point of going mechanical, for a superior typing experience, if that's what a factory tactile board is like. No wonder most of the world is on rubber-domes.

If I'm going to pay 5-10x times an office rubber-dome, I want it to offer something that exudes quality out-of-the-box. I haven't even gotten into how bad keycaps used to be.

It's getting better, largely thanks to the custom scene. You see more and more factory double-shot PBT, Cherry-profile, lubed stabilizers, non-Cherry switches, detachable-cable keyboards.

So thank-you custom scene for pushing this. I'm typing on a custom light tactile keyboard, and my Filco Majestouch 2 seems so crude by comparison. At least those MX Browns are worn-in now, and it has some nice DCS keycaps.

[Leslieann]

My biggest gripe is with the sheer lack of diversity. The focus is so heavy on aesthetics that functionality seems continually minimised. You can have absolutely any type of keyboard you want, as long as it's small. Occasionally a full-size keyboard or DIY kit will show up somewhere, but then it's just a bog-standard full-size layout. While unorthodox and innovative layouts abound in the smaller form factors, almost no one seems to try and innovate or improve upon the full-size layout (let alone expand on it).

I can't easily think of another industry where the enthusiasts are so heavily grouped on a single, lighter side of the spectrum. Most people own a run-of-the-mill bike. Then on one side you get expensive, ultra-light road racing bikes that have been stripped of mudguards, kickstands, or even gears or brakes. On the other side you get expensive mountain bikes with extra tread, extra suspension, extra heft. On another side you get commuter bikes with panniers and rear-view mirrors or child wagons, or tandems, etc. The layperson's bike sits somewhere in the middle of all that, with various niches available that sprout from there, for those who are willing to pay them. But when it comes to keyboards, the layperson's keyboard is like a Rolls Royce (albeit a really cheaply-built, rattly knock-off), with numpad, media keys, and no need to resort to convoluted layers and forced extra key-presses. Anyone who wants to customise their keyboard beyond that has little choice but to look downwards.

I guess many forgot why small keyboards became a thing, it gives you room for your mouse if you're right handed. Companies didn't make them so the community made their own and if you're spending a ton to make a limited production run you may as well make them nice while you're at it for a little more.

Almost every hobby space is this way.
Small form factor computers where you can spend $250-$500 on a case the size of a toaster (often runs as hot as one as well).
Water cooled computers where you can spend $700 just on colored fittings.
3d printers where the hobbyists can spend more on the controller alone than most spent on their entire printer.
Rc cars you have cheap store stuff and then you have the racers with full carbon fiber, milled aluminum everything.
I don't even want to know what model train people are spending.



As for the lack of diversity, is there?
Keyboards are commoditized, they have been for decades. they've been reduced to the absolute barest of essentials and yet for all that we have how many different sizes and looks. It's not a lack of diversity, the market is actually flooded. There has NEVER been a better time for keyboards. Ever. Well, except for the fact that everything is sold out and back ordered.

The lack of diversity is only because among all these boards, they all lack this one extremely specific feature you, and possibly only you, want. The fact that you can distill your options down that far, on something so commoditized is a testament to that diversity, not a lack of it.


Edit: For the record, there's really no less TKL and full size custom options than in the past it's just that there's so many more smaller options it makes them look like there is little choice. It has always been relatively slim pickings on them because that's not what drives this hobby.

[kajahtaa]

Zero gripes.

Ok.. the Muppets at Keyreative can DIAF.

That's it.

[Volny]

The lack of diversity is only because among all these boards, they all lack this one extremely specific feature you, and possibly only you, want. The fact that you can distill your options down that far, on something so commoditized is a testament to that diversity, not a lack of it.

C'mon Leslieann, that statement has no legs, and you're better than that. You can't in one breath say 'giant keyboard companies exclusively make full-size keyboards' and then in the next breath say 'if you you want a keyboard in the full-size space then you might just be the only individual on the planet who does'. The contradiction is preposterous. At the very least, I hope Dell, hp, Logitech et al all have bronze statues of me in their foyers, since I'm apparently one of the only people keeping their megalithic keyboard empires alive.

Let me rephrase my point. Usually, the mass market lies somewhere in the middle, while hobby spaces branch out in multiple, often opposite, directions from that middle. You yourself mentioned the perfect example yourself:

Small form factor computers where you can spend $250-$500 on a case the size of a toaster (often runs as hot as one as well).

Exactly. Enthusiasts spend crazy money on tiny computers. And as we're all aware, another group of enthusiasts spend crazy money on gigantic multi-GPU beasts. Layperson PCs lie somewhere in the middle - neither tiny, nor huge. All three market segments are valid. Compare this to keyboards, where layperson keyboards are near the large end of the spectrum, and the vast majority of enthusiasts and innovation lies only to one side of that spectrum.

[Leslieann]

The lack of diversity is only because among all these boards, they all lack this one extremely specific feature you, and possibly only you, want. The fact that you can distill your options down that far, on something so commoditized is a testament to that diversity, not a lack of it.

C'mon Leslieann, that statement has no legs, and you're better than that. You can't in one breath say 'giant keyboard companies exclusively make full-size keyboards' and then in the next breath say 'if you you want a keyboard in the full-size space then you might just be the only individual on the planet who does'. The contradiction is preposterous. At the very least, I hope Dell, hp, Logitech et al all have bronze statues of me in their foyers, since I'm apparently one of the only people keeping their megalithic keyboard empires alive.

Let me rephrase my point. Usually, the mass market lies somewhere in the middle, while hobby spaces branch out in multiple, often opposite, directions from that middle. You yourself mentioned the perfect example yourself:

Of course big business lies in the middle, it tries to satisfy everyone with a one size fits all approach.

What is offered up in the hobby segment is a reflection of the hobby itself, for a while TKL was pretty much the only thing people wanted, then it was 60% then 65% but there was always a small section of TKL and full size... There may not be any right now but there will likely be another soon, not everything is on offer all the time, you have to look at it over a period of time.

This whole hobby/market is us, it's created by, made by and fullfilled by us, it's not big business, if we can't find it, we make it. That's how almost all these boards got made. Why are there no full size offerings right now? No one has wanted it enough to put in that effort. Create an IC, see who is interested and come up with a plan. Stop waiting for others to do it for you if you want something specific, that's how it happens here.

[_rubik]

Vendors who keep products on their web site, but are constantly out of stock and no plans to restock.

I think it's part "I want to archive" and part "I want to bolster my clout". Time in the market and a successful string of GBs are the two things that separate reputable vendors from the up-starts; leaving "out of stock items" is one way of showing both.

- why do we have to mod everything? Why not sell actual ready product that has all what we do when modding our keyboards/switches? It all should be done during production, at least all those things that are a must, not preference.

We've spun our own narrative that "custom" > "prebuilt" and "limited supply" > "unlimited". I think that narrative is starting to change though as business adopt better layouts and quality materials. Razer (and company) leave a nasty stain on the hobby that I think companies like Glorious and Drop are slowly scrubbing away.

This whole hobby/market is us, it's created by, made by and fullfilled by us, it's not big business, if we can't find it, we make it. That's how almost all these boards got made. Why are there no full size offerings right now? No one has wanted it enough to put in that effort. Create an IC, see who is interested and come up with a plan. Stop waiting for others to do it for you if you want something specific, that's how it happens here.

I always wonder why "big business" is so disconnected from the trends we (as consumers) are driving. As I mentioned above, Logitech, Razer, Corsair etc just haven't adapted to the desires of the hobby/market. Glorious is profiting off the sloths.

I guess we're just at opposite ends of the keyboard market.

[Leslieann]

I always wonder why "big business" is so disconnected from the trends we (as consumers) are driving. As I mentioned above, Logitech, Razer, Corsair etc just haven't adapted to the desires of the hobby/market. Glorious is profiting off the sloths.

I guess we're just at opposite ends of the keyboard market.

Do you have any idea how much $$ the molds are to make a keyboard? Tens of thousands of dollars.
There's a reason companies like Ducky, Leopold and Cooler Master reuse the same molds over and over again, it's expensive and time consuming.

Sure each keyboard only costs $10 to produce (a high estimate including box and shipping) but they just spent $80k or more on tooling and R&D (probably a bit high but you need to make sure something will work before you buy thousands of them). They're going to be out 3/4mil before they even leave China, you still have payroll, marketing, etc... Assuming a profit margin of about $25 (not unreasonable) that means they need to sell 4000 of them to break even before they start a marketing campaign so they're going to order at least double that, let's make it a nice round 10,000 units. This means they're out of pocket $1.1 million before it even arrives at the dock which can easily be a year after you started on this.

So lets say they do make that perfect board for us, what happens if a trend changes 2 months after production has starter and suddenly no one wants that board? It's happened. One misstep and all that money is gone before your product even hits our shore. Ducky recently redid their lineup, what was the first thing noted? No hot swap. Hot swap was probably nothing when those boards were designed and orders placed and by the time they arrived everyone was talking Hot Swap*. Granted maybe they chose not to use it, maybe they didn't want the risk (they do have issues), that doesn't matter to you if you want hot swap.

This doesn't even scratch the surface, hobbyists here are extremely fickle about everything on their boards, we'll even turn our nose up to it simply for being too popular because it is good. These companies have better things to do than to waste money chasing your whims when there is an easy open market with general consumers. Sure they will come and try and taunt us into their products but they aren't going to cater to us. They don't want to sell us 500 keyboard then a refresh and another 500 next year they want to sell 10,000 keyboards this quarter and have another batch of 5k for each quarter thereafter.


*I'm not ragging on Ducky, like Logitech and Razer they aren't really after people who hand lube boutique switches and I'm not saying they chose wrong or that sales are slow, frankly I have no idea what their sales are like, I'm just using this as an example because it highlights how trends can change during production. Ducky does a pretty good job at what they do.

[HungerMechanic]

Funny you should say that.

I remember back in 2019 or so [maybe 2018], Ducky and a number of similar manufacturers created threads on R/MK asking people "What do you want to see in a Ducky keyboard." And the overwhelming answer to Ducky, by a far margin, was hotswap.

So they've had a year or two to implement user suggestions. Hope they made good use of it. I see Leopold is creating more case colours, such as a nice new gray + ripoff Oblivion Mono combo, and they are starting to use non-Cherry switches like SP Star. So they continue to learn.

[Findecanor]

It irks me that silent tactile switches are still not mainstream, (among mass-produced keyboards, not among customs)
The mainstream manufacturers are largely still making mechanical keyboards like they did in 2014.

[_rubik]

I always wonder why "big business" is so disconnected from the trends we (as consumers) are driving. As I mentioned above, Logitech, Razer, Corsair etc just haven't adapted to the desires of the hobby/market. Glorious is profiting off the sloths.

I guess we're just at opposite ends of the keyboard market.

Do you have any idea how much $$ the molds are to make a keyboard? Tens of thousands of dollars.
There's a reason companies like Ducky, Leopold and Cooler Master reuse the same molds over and over again, it's expensive and time consuming.

Oh I completely agree, but I see a middle ground. Without any sales numbers it's hard to actually know what their net profits are, but I would gamble that a solid 65% or WKL or <insert popular layout here> board would sell gangbusters in comparison to their full sized models.

All speculation of course, and your point is well taken.

It's just a pattern we've seen before with Cherry and the wave of clones. I'm excited to see mid-sized companies address the gap between mass-produced boards and trends set by the bespoke community.

[killyou]

My biggest gripe is that everything is about colorful GMK keycaps and all board designs are 65%. Other sizes are not getting enough attention. Don't get me started on floating key design either.

[rowdy]

Lack of proper drivers/configuration software with support and updates from the manufacturer.

Not some suspicious exe with poorly translated instructions that you download from Google Drive.

Mac software would be nice too.

[Leslieann]

Oh I completely agree, but I see a middle ground. Without any sales numbers it's hard to actually know what their net profits are, but I would gamble that a solid 65% or WKL or <insert popular layout here> board would sell gangbusters in comparison to their full sized models.

There has been smaller boards sold but again, think about who is buying from Best Buy, Office Depot, Staples and such, there is no way in hell Ducky even comes close to the numbers Logitech produces. Ever walk into an office and see something more exotic than Logitech? I think I saw a Cooler Master once. It's easier to count the number of offices that lack Dell or HP products than it is to count the number of offices I see that lack Logitech products.

I looked up the financials, they made $500mil in keyboard and keyboard/mouse combo sales in 2018 and again in 2019 and that is NET, not gross and this does not include mice sold individually (about the same amount!). Even if you assume $20 profit per board (remember this is net), that's a hell of a lot of keyboards and even if you break it up among 50 models you can bet they expect massive sales for each of them. If something only sold 10,000 that's a failed product for them.


65% will not sell to office users.
Winkeyless is NEVER going to happen. Logitech has to pay to display the "Certified Windows Compatible" sticker, it's part of their marketing and branding and Microsoft is certainly not going to let them advertise it without a Winkey.
Even TKL is a hard sell for Logitech because so much of their stuff is bought by parents and offices, they need or at least think they need the numpad. I've had a bunch of customers go up in laptop size specifically because they wanted a numpad after having one that did not.

[Leslieann]

Lack of proper drivers/configuration software with support and updates from the manufacturer.
Not some suspicious exe with poorly translated instructions that you download from Google Drive.
Mac software would be nice too.

This is because soooo many keyboards are white label stuff.

I can literally fire off an email and get 500 TKLs with rgb and my name on them for under $2k delivered in 30 days right to an Amazon warehouse and never leave my bed except to get my credit card.

[samsamm777]

My biggest gripe is uneccessary group buys. Brands do group buys to mitigate their investment into a product, which i feel is disingenious. I understand GBs build hype for a product, but there must be better ways which dont put the customers money at risk. I run a small keyboard brand and ive not done any GBs. I invested my own money into production, and we're building a customer base. I'd like to think this is a more honest way to run a business. Probably not a common opinion, but thats how i feel.

[Leopard223]

That we still have god awful stabilizers and instead of pushing vendors to make new stabilziers designs that doesn't require heavy and messy moddding we invent countless bizzare and messy methods to eliminate stab rattle. 
Just a rant after I thought I figured out how to tune my stabs and found them having just the slightest annoying ticking.

[HungerMechanic]

Yes, there is so little innovation in the 'basics' [stabilizers, fundamentally new switch designs, keycap materials] and so much in keycap colourways, artisans, themed cables, switch recolours.

Is supply driving these purchases, or is this where most demand is?

[timw4mail]

The really cheap boards have ugly keycaptions and gaudy leds.

[Linkblade]

The english ANSI keyboard layout is dominating this niche market. Since the european ISO keyboard layouts have less buyers this makes ISO layouts niche in an already niche market, so very hard or limited to get. Well, that's how things work, but I would still like to have more choice for ISO layout boards and keycaps.

That said and off-topic, because it's not keyboard industry, I hate it when game developers put controls to something like arrow keys+Z+X and make them not rebindable. Z for me in a german layout is swapped with the Y position, so I have to awkwardly press those buttons. Z is swapped in other countries' layouts too. Game developers would just need to use X+C, because those are the same, then everything would be just fine for everyone!

[jamster]

Yes, there is so little innovation in the 'basics' [stabilizers, fundamentally new switch designs, keycap materials] and so much in keycap colourways, artisans, themed cables, switch recolours.

Is supply driving these purchases, or is this where most demand is?

It's almost certainly demand. Just look at all the hype around the ICs with gushing enthusiasm about tiny cosmetic variants on old designs.

Or take the most casual of glances at r/mk.

[tiltowait]

I sometimes feel like I'm on crazy pills looking at r/mk.

[Madrobby]

1. Lack of cases with proper bezels (so I don't need a wristrest).
2. Lack of cases and PCBs for 100% builds

[_rubik]

1. Lack of cases with proper bezels (so I don't need a wristrest).
2. Lack of cases and PCBs for 100% builds

"proper" is an interesting word to use. I could make the argument that wrist wrests give people more flexibility

That said, I'm surprised the tex shinobi isn't more popular