still waiting for my M

[wellington1869]

I should be getting my NIB Dells with black Alps soon.  I wil let you know if they have the friction-enhanced switches like the older ones I bought several weeks ago.

ya that will be interesting to know...

[wellington1869]

ok, so I tried out the white alps (or clicky strongmans anyway) at J&R on the macally (come to think of it, I think its "matias") TP2.  On the one hand, the clicky whites did indeed have a click that my gray alps (as I'm referring to them now) on this smk85 dont have. But in every other way the whites felt like the grays (ie, in terms of tactility).  Also the overall noise wasnt much different cuz the click was so mild (the main noise is really the bottoming out snap and the rattle and resonances from the alps keycaps). So to be honest I didnt think they were as different as I thought they might be. The biggest difference is the click. Which I suppose is a big difference, but it was the only one I could see.

So do I exchange this board or not? I rather like it, but if I'm going to get white alps/strongmans, I should really just get white alps/strongmans. I mean I can always tamp down the noise if its too much (either by pulling out the metal leaf, or some good old 'lube). So I guess even though I actually dont mind this board as is, I'll exchange it just to make sure I dont have any regrets later on

[itlnstln]

Send it back, and get a Northgate with the real deal.

Just MHO.

[wellington1869]

Send it back, and get a Northgate with the real deal.

Just MHO.

I thought about that... I was actually looking at those SIIG mini's with the white alps; but the price difference is considerable for me right now (this one is 40 shipped after the live.com rebate; even the siig mini is 85 with shipping).  I'll definitely try an evolution or the siig mini at some point though. For now I think the strongmans will do (so long as they click!)

[itlnstln]

Also, look for the MK96.  It is an Apple layout (if that is an issue for you), but you can generally find them pretty cheap.  I think XsPhat got his for something like $10 (you have to buy an ADB -> USB adapter, too, but you would still come out ahead).  If anything, just buy the kb, and change out the switches with your SMK (once you figure it out).

[wellington1869]

Also, look for the MK96.  It is an Apple layout (if that is an issue for you), but you can generally find them pretty cheap.  I think XsPhat got his for something like $10 (you have to buy an ADB -> USB adapter, too, but you would still come out ahead).  If anything, just buy the kb, and change out the switches with your SMK (once you figure it out).

ya the only reason I avoided that was cuz of the apple layout and additional adapter -- however I didnt think about replaceing the switches - thats an interesting option (esp if I can get one for $10!).

By replacing the switches you mean pop off and swap just the tops/guts, right? (I could probably handle that

[wellington1869]

Is this an mk96? Strange that he describes it as "Quiet soft touch".

Its 10 bucks but shipping kinda kills it at $20... I suppose $30 total isnt bad, but then I could just put that 30 with this 40 and get the siig from the northgate repairs site and not have any additional work to do...

[wellington1869]

well itln, you've gone and planted an idea in my head... I might buy an mk96 and swap out the switches... basically because I actually kind of like these switches too... I'd have a choice of switches at that point... and opening up the alps switch seems really easy to do, would be relatively painless...

[iMav]

Even with the high shipping costs, I'd recommend the mk96 as long as you can live with the key layout.  That 'board feels great to type on.

[wellington1869]

Even with the high shipping costs, I'd recommend the mk96 as long as you can live with the key layout.  That 'board feels great to type on.

does the mk96 have white alps for sure? (XS in his review describes them as "alps-ish"). Are they strongmans?

[iMav]

does the mk96 have white alps for sure? (XS in his review describes them as "alps-ish"). Are they strongmans?

I believe they are white Alps...the 'boards I had did not say "Alps" on them...but in comparison with other 'boards I have with white Alps, they feel and sound identical.

[xsphat]

I believe they are white Alps...the 'boards I had did not say "Alps" on them...but in comparison with other 'boards I have with white Alps, they feel and sound identical.

I did a side by side with my old Northgate and they felt the same, though one was twenty years old. Someone else said that some of the Alps switches have the name on the sides or even the bottom, so yes, they are real white Alps, even if they are not named in the correct spot.

[wellington1869]

bought one; so either I'll be swapping with smk85 switches, or there will be a mk96 for sale at geekhack soon. we'll find out when it comes

[wellington1869]

The really nice thing about alps is, the switch is so accessible and easy to open, that it means its really easy for users to mix-n-match alps components and fine-tune the noise as well as feel to nearly anything they want.  I love that all the different alps switches appear to use interchangeable guts.

[wellington1869]

now I'm waiting for 3 boards... impatiently. I havent had a new board to try in a week and it feels weird

[wellington1869]

once again waiting proves to be the hardest part. Waiting on two kinds of alps switches. They're taking absolutely forever to get here. Whilte alps not due till 18th, black alps not due till 22nd. What the hell am I going to do in the meanwhile? Argh.
(oh yea, I suppose I could do some real work )

Buying online is great (price and choice and information) but the waiting blows so incredibly badly.

[bhtooefr]

Hey, you could be like me, waiting on money so that I can even think about getting a Cherry blue board.

[itlnstln]

Have you called AS (Anonymous Switchoholics) for support?

Is the President the guy in your avatar?

[itlnstln]

OK, as long as he doesn't go outside in stormy weather (or at all).

[bhtooefr]

I get the impression that he probably has no desire to go outside at all, so that'd be a non-issue.

[wellington1869]

Have you called AS (Anonymous Switchoholics) for support?

thats why I joined geekhack We should come up with a 10 step program.

[wellington1869]

I get the impression that he probably has no desire to go outside at all, so that'd be a non-issue.

lol

[bhtooefr]

Based on the AA 12 step program, according to Wikipedia:

1. We admitted we were powerless over keyswitches - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Switch greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and lives over to the care of the Buckling Spring as we understood it.
4. Made a searching and fearless inventory of our keyboards.
5. Admitted to the Buckling Spring, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have the Buckling Spring remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked It to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had annoyed by testing clicky keyboards late at night, and did not become willing to make amends to them all, and instead to keep typing on Model Ms late at night.
9. Gave those people Model Ms, so they could annoy their friends and family as well, even when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory of our keyboard stashes and when we were in possession of a non-BS keyboard promptly admitted it, and threw out the offending keyboard.
11. Sought through eBay and Geekhack to improve our massive collection of Buckling Spring keyboards, praying only for those annoying snipers to not grab that M15 we were bidding on.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other switchaholics, and to practice these principles in all of our affairs.

[wellington1869]

lol! I think that might work. Now I have to wear a cherry switch around my neck as a constant reminder of my commitment

[wellington1869]

well I did get something in the mail today tho nothing too exciting, its my replacement for my M board (tho I had been typing on the broken one whenever it felt like working for a while, so this wasnt all that novel to get the replacement .

The replacement is a '96 lexmark made (complete with blue logo) 1391401.  (the original one I got was a '91 gray logo ibm-made one). Both have 2-piece keys and detachable cables.

People always say the lexmark made ones sound different and I can confirm this: they do sound different, not that much but enough for me to notice. The older one ('91, gray logo, ibm) is quieter than the lexmark made one from '96. The lexmark one "pings" quite a bit more when you type. (I mean its not the pingiest board I've ever heard, I just mean in comparison to the ibm-made one).  Also the older '91 ibm one weighs noticaby more, is heavier. (tho they're both heavy compared to anything else).

The sound isnt very different, and I think i would have really only noticed having them side by side. And its not a bad sound, just different and higher toned. Having them side by side though I must say I prefer the older heavier ibm-made one. (update: I take that back, I dont know if I have preference here. They're both nice in their own ways).

The switch feel tho is nearly identical. I'd argue lexmark keys are just a touch stiffer, but that could be my imagination (or just that the ibm-one has been worn-in more). (update: trying the old one again now, its definitely a lighter touch, but again that might be a function of wear).

[wellington1869]

project: Doing a "silencing" project on an endurapro (kind of a mirror project to what itln is doing with the alps board). I'm going to be adding the following to this board in the coming few weeks:
--rubber washer around the plunger on the keys to reduce bottoming clack
--silicon grease on the plunger to reduce rattle
--silicon grease on the springs to reduce click and ping

What I'd like is additionally some way to reduce overall board resonance. Opened it up, didnt see any obvious way to do that. Also topping clack is still not addressed, but its not as loud as the other sources of noise. So the above three things might go a long way. If it works, it should really approximate black alps noise level (with a BS feel).

(p.s., I'm also considering rubber tubing around the spring instead of grease. Grease may 'migrate' downwards; however, rubber tubing may wear out within a few months. Might try both on the board and see which one lasts longer).

[itlnstln]

You might want to get one of the soft touch Ms with the "buckling rubber sleeves" and see if you could incorporate those in your design.

[iMav]

You might want to get one of the soft touch Ms with the "buckling rubber sleeves" and see if you could incorporate those in your design.

Well, the "quiet touch" Model M's use a rubber dome sheet.  The "buckling rubber sleeves" are in the M4 keyboards ("mighty mouse") and are entirely separate beasts.

[wellington1869]

You might want to get one of the soft touch Ms with the "buckling rubber sleeves" and see if you could incorporate those in your design.

thats a really interesting idea. I was going to just use rubber tubing (1/8" diameter would work, lots on ebay for cheap).

If I wanted to try the buckling sleeves I'd have to pick up an M4 I guess. I'll keep an eye out.  Today I'm off to hardware store with a model M key  in my hand to look for a rubber washer that fits nicely around the plunger. If I find one I guess I'll buy 104 of them

[bhtooefr]

Actually, IIRC, you need 110 for a 101-key board, because of some keys having multiple plungers for stabilization.

[wellington1869]

Actually, IIRC, you need 110 for a 101-key board, because of some keys having multiple plungers for stabilization.

good point! If I include some spares, I think I'll just get 120.

[wellington1869]

ok, just got it. The fabled white alps. (its like spotting a unicorn or something).
It even came complete with the "free numpad" that they promised.
(so, does anyone want an unopened adb numpad? free if you want to pay shipping).

ok... opening the mk96 now... mainly I want to see how noisy they are and if resistance is any different from the gray alps...

[zwmalone]

Does the numpad have white ALPS?

[cchan]

Hmm... Going back to the M silencing idea... This is something I might want to try. Would something like this rubber tubing work?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Luminous-Glow-Rubber-Tubing-1-8-10-Cod-Squid-Jigs-G_W0QQitemZ270317449184QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item270317449184&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

[bigpook]

Hmm... Going back to the M silencing idea... This is something I might want to try. Would something like this rubber tubing work?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Luminous-Glow-Rubber-Tubing-1-8-10-Cod-Squid-Jigs-G_W0QQitemZ270317449184QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item270317449184&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

I would be curious how that rubber tubing would work out. Are you going to place it over the spring?
If so , I would think the rubber tubing would degrade and break apart over time. I could be wrong though.

[iMav]

I'm pretty sure that if you place any sort of tubing around the spring, that it will not buckle properly.

[cchan]

That's what I was thinking too. Wellington suggested placing rubber tubing over the springs in this post, and I was a little skeptical. But I'm willing to be a guinea pig if I get 3m of tubing for $7 shipped. If it doesn't work out on the M, I can always use it to suspend hard drives.

[wellington1869]

Does the numpad have white ALPS?

good question, it doesnt say on the box, want me to open it up?

[bigpook]

I'm pretty sure that if you place any sort of tubing around the spring, that it will not buckle properly.

No doubt, but the key press would still register, no?
Don't know how wonky the key press would feel though.

[wellington1869]

That's what I was thinking too. Wellington suggested placing rubber tubing over the springs in this post, and I was a little skeptical. But I'm willing to be a guinea pig if I get 3m of tubing for $7 shipped. If it doesn't work out on the M, I can always use it to suspend hard drives.

would love to hear your results. (I was just brainstorming - but a thin-walled tube may work (but then wear out quickly)).

[wellington1869]

Incidentally, I tried a rubber washer around the model M key's plunger today. Basically it didnt work cuz the washer was too thick (it was the smallest one the hardware store had). So basically the switch didnt move up and down on its whole range anymore. I'm not done with that idea though, I want to try the small rubberbands you get with your braces, those might be small enough to not impede the plunger movement.  (The idea here is that bottoming clack would be reduced or eliminated).

One place where those rubber washers worked perfectly though -- around my alps switch on my spacebar. I have an smk85 with gray alps and a gunshot spacebar. Wanted to tamp down that gunshot. Velcro on top of the keyswitch worked for a while, but thought I'd try the rubber washer instead. Worked perfectly, tamped down the spacebar gunshot perfectly. Basically I just stuck it on the underside of the spacebar where the little notch fits into the alps switch.

[zwmalone]

good question, it doesnt say on the box, want me to open it up?

Sure, go for it.  If I get my Filco I'd gladly take it off your hands

[wellington1869]

Sure, go for it.  If I get my Filco I'd gladly take it off your hands

k, hold on... its cherries! clicky cherries. I thought they were white alps (based on click and feel), then I pulled a key, and its black-stemmed cherries.
(which is odd cuz the usual black cherry switch is clickless).  But they're clicky and quite delightful actually.

[zwmalone]

That's odd. I've never heard of clicky black MXs...

[wellington1869]

That's odd. I've never heard of clicky black MXs...

me neither  By the way, here is a description and pics (this is the same one I got)

[Chloe]

k, hold on... its cherries! clicky cherries. I thought they were white alps (based on click and feel), then I pulled a key, and its black-stemmed cherries.
(which is odd cuz the usual black cherry switch is clickless).  But they're clicky and quite delightful actually.

Do they have a tactile bump and the Cherry logo?

[wellington1869]

hmmm, so in my whirlwind attempt to find the ideal 'board for the last few weeks, I'm not sure where I stand now. I'll have to take stock. At this point I've tried virtually every (affordable) switch that geekhackers most commonly talk about.  And what are my conclusions? I dont know! Hahahahahahaha (maniacal laughter as he loses his mind).

But seriously, I guess what I've accomplished (other than a great deal of procrastination and retail therapy), is that I've eliminated some switches from the running and narrowed down the field quite a bit.  I've also come to discover and know my own likes and dislikes (which I did not know before). I've also come to know and classify the main metrics and criteria that I'd look for in a board (which I didnt really know before either).

Basically for me its a case of "tuning" two things in particular: key resistance and noise.

-Cherries were neat but too light for me (or in the case of the clickless blacks, too stiff).
-BS are still my reference, but looks like they wont be my main board. I'd like something a little lighter (even though I switch to BS now and then when I want to really pound on the keys). So still looking for the main board.
-Alps (in particular, strongmans) seem to hit a broad sweetspot for me, particularly in terms of resistance being in between cherries and bs.
So what I'm left with now, I think, is tuning the strongman's noise. For this I'm collecting strongman boards now (grays, blacks, whites). Once I have them I'll decide between those (and maybe apply a mod or two if necessary to tune the noise further - dampers, interchangeable leafs, etc).

[wellington1869]

Do they have a tactile bump and the Cherry logo?

tactile bump: yup
cherry logo: where would it be located? I dont think i've ever seen a cherry logo on the switch itself...

[Chloe]

If you take a keycap off it should be visible on the switch casing.

[zwmalone]

It's at the top(front) of the switch: