Author Topic: My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?  (Read 10932 times)

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Offline 002

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 04:18:32 »
I noticed that some of the keys on my 87U just don't look right.
The keys aren't perfectly straight like the rest of the board. Any of you guys with Topre boards have the same issue?

I've tried switching the offending keys with properly aligned keys but it didn't fix the problem.


'M' key leaning to the left.


'[' and ']' keys leaning into each other.


Zoomed out view - 'I', 'M' '[' and ']' keys have the problem.

Offline trievalot

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 04:25:28 »
crap board. give it to me
[SIGPIC]

Offline chimera15

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 04:25:33 »
wow? What's up with that. lol  It looks like a sales report line chart. lol
Alps boards:
white real complicated: 1x modified siiig minitouch kb1903,  hhkb light2 english steampunk hack, wireless siig minitouch hack
white with rubber damper(cream)+clicky springs: 2x modified siig minitouch kb1903 1x modified siig minitouch kb1948
white fake simplified:   1x white smk-85, 1x Steampunk compact board hack
white real simplified: 1x unitek k-258
low profile: 1x mint m1242 in box
black: ultra mini wrist keyboard hack
blue: Japanese hhk2 lite hack, 1x siig minitouch pcb/doubleshot dc-2014 caps. kb1903, 1x modified kb1948 Siig minitouch
rainbow test boards:  mck-84sx


Offline gr1m

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 04:33:40 »
Well, you aren't being hypercritical, I can see it clearly and it would probably annoy me IRL.

Offline Rajagra

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 04:40:03 »
I thought your N key was horribly deformed (look at the left edge), but it's just the angle it was shot from. But I suspect it is rotated clockwise slightly, and that is making the M look even worse than it is (rotated anticlockwise.)

Mine aren't like that, but if they were the grey-on-black colour scheme would probably do a good job of hiding it.

Your test suggests the problem lies with the baseplate rather than the caps. How does it look without the caps on?

Offline HaaTa

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 04:40:04 »
It's fack'd.

Ask for a refund :P.
Kiibohd

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Offline 002

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 04:52:53 »
@Rajagra

I took the top row of keys off and to me they all look like they line up correctly, but it's the plungers that look suspect.
Another thing I'd like to know is what the notch at the top of the plunger means and which way it's supposed to face.
In the case of my board, the notch either faces in the top right direction of the bottom left direction - is this normal.

here is the order:
Notch facing North-east - QWERUIP[
Notch facing South-west - TYO]

Time to e-mail leopold I think

Offline didjamatic

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 06:44:15 »
That's definitely a manufacturing defect, on a board like the 87u they should fix that.
IBM F :: IBM M :: Northgate :: Cherry G80 :: Realforce :: DAS 4

Offline Rajagra

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 08:01:58 »
Quote from: 002;196203
Another thing I'd like to know is what the notch at the top of the plunger means and which way it's supposed to face.
In the case of my board, the notch either faces in the top right direction of the bottom left direction - is this normal.

I think that's just a locking tab that keeps the two parts together during assembly. It should be OK in any of those two directions, but not if it points NW or SE. I popped off the O & P keys on mine, they both pointed SW.

Offline isp

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 10:34:31 »
Theres a joke in there about British teeth I'm sure.

Anyway, that would not be acceptable to me.  I would likely return it.  Good luck!
hhkb

Offline itlnstln

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 10:52:59 »
That's unacceptable.  I second (third, fourth, whatever) a return.


Offline wellington1869

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 11:58:06 »
figures ripster would defend the topre defects but rail against scorpius and adesso defects ;-D  At least the latter cost a fraction of the topre.

If you paid $60 for it, i'd live with it; if you paid a $100 or $300, send it back.  

Its nice to see the top flight boards suffer so many of the same defects (in firmware and hardware/manufacturing) as the lower priced boards. Just goes to prove what i've always said, the industry doesnt give a **** so you may as well save some cash and get the cheaper ones.

And I'll add once more, also, that its great to buy expensive keyboards but from folks who have return policies.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline itlnstln

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 12:05:40 »
The Y key on my HHKB is a little off.  I would have never noticed if the topic hadn't come up.


Offline itlnstln

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 12:09:37 »
Don't worry, I already have an e-mail out to Majestouch about it.  It's unacceptable.


Offline itlnstln

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 12:14:12 »
Will do.


Offline wellington1869

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 13:12:10 »
Quote from: ripster;196295

Welly is the expert at Returns.  Just look at his Sig.


actually i'm an expert at giving keyboards away to geekhackers (you know how many of my former boards are currently serving geekhackers? A lot :)
I'm also an expert on selling some of them on GH marketplace. But whatever.

You on the other hand are an expert at telling consumers to stuff it :) if the defect involves your favorite reseller :)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline didjamatic

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 13:19:39 »
I wonder if some of the Topre smothness comes from sloppy guides/slider tolerances that eliminate binding.  Engineers will do this on purpose sometimes.  Think of a Colt 1911 that will work if you dunk it in mud.
« Last Edit: Fri, 25 June 2010, 13:21:50 by didjamatic »
IBM F :: IBM M :: Northgate :: Cherry G80 :: Realforce :: DAS 4

Offline didjamatic

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 14:27:34 »
Yeah, that looks pretty tight at least in this photo.

That white 87u is horrible, you should sell it for like fifty bucks to some sucker like me.
IBM F :: IBM M :: Northgate :: Cherry G80 :: Realforce :: DAS 4

Offline itlnstln

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 14:38:16 »
On my HHKB, the Y key's mechanism is what is crooked, so it's certainly not the keycaps (at least in my case).  Without breaking out a microscope, it's hard to tell exactly which part of the mechanism is crooked.


Offline itlnstln

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 14:42:00 »
Hey, mine is straighter than Snaggle-tooth's up there with the metal plate.  I don't see any crooked keys on my numpad, though, but there is less chance for error on that one.


Offline Rajagra

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 17:30:10 »
There's a 1.8° difference between the [] keys, or 0.9° error per key. The design is capable of ensuring better accuracy than that, but only if manufacturing tolerances are kept tight. The most likely bad component is the sliding part. Maybe there was a bad batch. Or perhaps more likely - maybe they mixed up components from different batches? If every key was rotated 0.9° clockwise you wouldn't see a problem. But if you mix up sliders from two batches that differ in positioning, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

It's not exactly faulty, but can be classed as a 'second'.

Offline Rajagra

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 18:09:33 »
Quote from: ripster;196416
The plastic slider assembly is mounted into a metal plate.  As I've said before we are talking .01" tolerances when you punch that plate.

So the HHKB is very different to the Realforce in that respect? Which board is this?:



That one seems to have a one-piece, moulded mounting assembly, which should guarantee good alignment.

EDIT> Popped some caps. The HHKB is the one with the moulded assembly.
« Last Edit: Fri, 25 June 2010, 18:17:18 by Rajagra »

Offline wellington1869

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 21:27:42 »
Quote from: ripster;196416

So you COULD pop the slider, file a bit,  and remount. Or return to Leopold.  Or take Welly's advice and complain to Elitekeyboards even though they have nothing to do with this issue.


lol, nah they're just the point of sale. Everyone knows the point of sale has nothing whatsoever to do with the sale!

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 21:49:49 »
Quote from: ripster;196532
If all you're going to do is hang around Geekhack to troll Elitekeyboards you should really just create a "EliteKeyboardsSux" facebook page (lmnop would friend you!) or something because it gets old.

really rippy, is that all i do here?
what gets old is you jumping in to defend EK every chance you get.

Quote from: ripster;196532

The OP bought the Realforce 87U keyboard from Leopold.

I never mentioned EK, by the way, when I responded to the OP; for some reason you did though. For some reason you assumed I told the OP to return it to EK. I did not. Check my threads above. So stop projecting that onto me. I merely told the OP that at at some pricepoint it might be worth pursuing (with WHOMEVER they bought it from) and that return policies are useful in precisely such situations.

If anyone is obsessed with EK on this forum, rippy, its you.  I said my piece about EK long ago and thats ancient history to me. What I got out of it is standard advice to any consumer about how to be careful. That advice applies to ANY seller we may come across.

Quote from: ripster

Welly is the expert at Returns. Just look at his Sig.

And surely you dont expect uncalled-for barbs like the above to go by without a response? Was I the only one who recommended they consider returning it? Why do you pretend like I was? I didnt even say return it, I said to consider it.
« Last Edit: Fri, 25 June 2010, 21:55:46 by wellington1869 »

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline 002

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 21:58:42 »
I did buy the keyboard from Leopold - EK didn't have the white board.
It was Brian who actually suggested that I ask Leopold when I asked him about a white board.

EK have been helpful to me in the past so let's see if Leopold can match the service that EK showed me.

The language barrier will likely be a hurdle but I'll let you all know how it goes.
I would certainly hate to think that my little thread has deteriorated relationships between members here.

<3

Offline wellington1869

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 22:01:15 »
Quote from: 002;196537

I would certainly hate to think that my little thread has deteriorated relationships between members here.

<3


lol, not to worry, we've been going at it forever ;)

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline wellington1869

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 22:03:38 »
And lets get something right - its not EK I'm criticizing here, its ripster i'm criticizing. Dont deflect that to EK, rippy. ;)

Its like, we cant even talk about good deals on other keyboards cuz ripster gets afraid that we might channel business away from his favorite sellers or his favorite boards. I love the way you came down so hard on the mere mention of bing discounts. I mean wow, are you even on the consumers side any more?

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline Nonmouse

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 22:43:30 »
Quote from: ripster;196416
Don't think it was the sliders.

The plastic slider assembly is mounted into a metal plate.  As I've said before we are talking .01" tolerances when you punch that plate.

I'm kinda curious as to why you think that a  HUNDREDTH  of an inch ZOMFG!!!1!! is something that excuses them somehow.  I can hand-file pieces to a hundredth of an inch.  Machining or punching pieces to a thousandth (0.001") of an inch has been trivially simple for decades.

That they can't be bothered to spec their tolerances that closely, or to QC the products before boxing them up just shows that they just don't give a ****- not that there's some mystical  barrier at .01"!!!1!!eveventy!! that can't possibly be broken by modern- or even early twentieth-century- manufacturing techniques.

Offline Nonmouse

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 23:36:23 »
Quote from: ripster;196561
ZOMFG!!!1!! your text is sure lavender.

Kinda ugly with the light theme.  Makes me question your manhood with the dark theme.

And ad hominem attacks have exactly what to do with manufacturing tolerances?

Just, you know, curious...

Offline Nonmouse

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 25 June 2010, 23:50:16 »
Quote from: ripster;196565
What do hominy grits have to do with manufacturing tolerances?

That they're significantly larger than .01"?  

Which is still a pretty piss-poor manufacturing tolerance?  

That they're completely irrelevant, except as a red herring to distract attention from the fact that not being able to manufacture or QC products to a spec of 0.01" is either an indication of extreme incompetence or plain cheapness- or possibly a combination of both?

Offline maetl

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #30 on: Sun, 27 June 2010, 15:45:39 »
Quote from: ripster;196924
.01" is about 1/2 the diameter of this.


.2mm lead and pencils are made without a problem.

Offline elbowglue

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #31 on: Sun, 27 June 2010, 15:56:51 »
Quote from: maetl;196986
.2mm lead and pencils are made without a problem.

You know, they have an unfair advantage, this is a picture of the pencil lead factory, you cannot compete with work done with the eensy weensy fingers of these specialists:

My keyboards: Filco Cherry Blue Tenkeyless(daily home), Compaq MX11800 (modded to blacks), Compaq "MX 84u",  Wellington\'s Dampened Endurapro, Pinkalicious Filco Blue Cherry, Chicony KB-5191, Chicony KB-5181, Desko MOS 5023 UP "elbowglue" spos (modded to blues), Siig Minitouch (monterey blue), SMK-88 (blue cherries), Ricercar SPOS
Smallest to biggest keyboards in inches (Length X Height) - Length is most important for a midline mouse position

KBC Poker: 11.6 x 3.9 - HHKB: 11.6 x 4.3 - Siig Minitouch (Geekhack Space Saver): 11.6 x 6 - Deck/Tg3 82: 12 x 6 - Noppoo Choc Mini 12.4 x 5.3 - Compaq "MX 84u": 13.1 x 7.5 - Filco Tenkeyless: 14 x 5.3 - Cherry "ricercar spos" G86-62410EUAGSA: 14 x 7.75 - Topre Realforce 86u: 14.4 x 6.65 - Desko "elbowglue spos" MOS 5023 UP: 14.5 x 8.4 - IBM Model M Spacesaver: 15.3 x 7 - G80-1800: 15.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-125B: 16 x 7.3 - Compaq Mx11800, Cherry G80-11900: 16.25 x 7.5 - Filco Standard: 17.3 x 5.4 - Unicomp Endurapro: 17.9 x 7.1 - Adesso MKB-135B: 18.3 x 6.0 - Cherry G80-3000: 18.5 x 7.6 - IBM Model M, Unicomp Customizer: 19.3 x 8.27

Offline Oqsy

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 27 June 2010, 16:49:45 »
oompa loompa fingers are short, but they're also stubby and thick, which makes them less than ideal for jobs that require dexterity.  oompa loompas are also involved in unions with strong communist party ties and use mafia-style intimidation to keep the munchkins from crossing the picket lines any time there's a labor dispute at the pencil factory.  Poor munchkins just want to make a living...

[sigpic]Currently in use: Rosewill RK9000 and CH DT225[/sigpic]
"Private misfortunes make for public welfare."

Offline J888www

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 27 June 2010, 16:50:36 »
:argue: + :fencing:

= :nono: + :crazy:

:peace: + :love: + :hug:

= :thumb:

:amen:
Often outspoken, please forgive any cause for offense.
Thank you all in GH for reading.

Keyboards & Pointing Devices :-
[/FONT]One Too Many[/COLOR]

Offline 002

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 29 June 2010, 01:21:46 »
I'm just going to ignore the fact that this thread has turned into a discussion about oompa loompas and trunk monkeys (both interesting topics in their own rights) and post the reply I got from Leopold:

"Hi.
 
This is engineer of Leopold.
 
I saw the picture that you linked for me.
The Keycap of Keyboard made by Topre Co., Ltd in Japan is twisted a little due to structural reason.
So it is not defect.
 
You can not see the Korean but we noticed about this issue on our web site.
 
Thank you."

So I guess I'll have to ignore the twisty keys. I'll get you next time Captain Planet! *shakes fist*

Offline trievalot

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 29 June 2010, 01:24:39 »
OMG WTF??!?!?!?!?!one!!!!111@!!!!one!

they SAID its due to a structural reason. they ADMIT it.
tards.
[SIGPIC]

Offline wellington1869

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 29 June 2010, 01:25:42 »
Wow. Twisted keys are a $300 'feature', apparently. That sounds like a page from steve jobs.

1. hold your iphone differently to avoid the reception problem.
2. there is no iphone reception problem.

"Blah blah blah grade school blah blah blah IBM PS/2s blah blah blah I like Model Ms." -- Kishy

using: ms 7000/Das 3

Offline 002

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 29 June 2010, 01:30:29 »
Anyways, the missus is Japanese so I'm going to get her to translate his reply and we'll see what Topre has to say about it.

Offline majestouch

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 29 June 2010, 13:10:32 »
Leopold is not Topre...spinning it that way is not sincere by any stretch.

002, the cylindrical structure of the Topre keycap mounting does lend itself to some twisting, some keys more than others, and when twisted some will stay there until twisted back. On the average, they mostly float around the middle of their movement boundaries and the lines aren't so aesthetically disconcerting, however, this is something I've mentioned to Topre before as a concern, particularly with keys like Shift, which are often hit off center resulting in a normally twisted position.

From your photos I'd say some of your key twisting is beyond acceptable and the board or keycaps are defective and should be replaced, HOWEVER, the barrel distortion of your camera lens does add some exaggeration, and I won't discount the possibility that you've manually twisted some keys to an extreme, those of which you've noticed are more inclined to twist, for better illustration of your point to Leopold or members of this forum (may the gang mentality rain down upon me for being honest about the reality of human intentions).

That all said, I believe there is room for improvement in Topre's design and I don't like Leopold's answer to you, so I'll take your photos and make an inquiry to Topre, and let you know what I hear back.

Offline 002

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My 87U - Am I being hypercritical?
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 29 June 2010, 21:47:48 »
Quote from: majestouch;197653
so I'll take your photos and make an inquiry to Topre, and let you know what I hear back.

Thank-you.
I'd be interested to hear what they say about it. If they confirm that the defects are normal then I'll be on my merry way.

Regarding purposely twisting the keys to provide dramatic effect - I did adjust some of the keys pictured to make the problem more apparent, however, I'd like to say that I didn't twist each key individually to find the problematic keys in the first place. I saw them.

This might come as a surprise to you all but I'm also not a very good photographer. I can assure you that any effects that my camera and I have achieved to make the problem look worse than it is were accidental. I can take some more pictures if someone has some suggestions on how to get the most accurate representation of what the keyboard looks like in real life.
« Last Edit: Tue, 29 June 2010, 21:52:40 by 002 »