Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 18 June 2020, 16:56:06
(https://imgur.com/jxiqTnQ.png)
Sagittarius, a gasket-mount optimized ergonomic layout custom keyboard
"Each soul a single universe
Each mind bears the wages of their sins
Each person carries the blessing of existence"
Each mind bears the wages of their sins
Each person carries the blessing of existence"
Hello there guys, and welcome to the interest check of Sagittarius!
For you guys that don’t know me, I’m a brazilian mech enthusiast and engineer, best known for my open-source PCBs such as SharkPCB, ArcticPCB, Doddle60, Austin and much more. All of those released under my Acheron Project (see the documentation of the AcheronProject (http://acheronproject.com)). I’ve been an active member of the community for some time, and today I bring you my greatest contribution so far: Sagittarius!
This is an ergonomic layout that I like to call optimized ergonomic, because we took ourselves pretty far with the design and project of this layout. It was designed using top-level research literature in psychology and medicine papers that define mechanical models for the hands and fingers, and optimization algorithms that are supposed to minimize wrist and finger joint strain while using the keyboard. This while delivering a layout compatible with our common base keycap kits with rich features like encoders and a gasket-mount case designed by Upas at Cannonkeys!
1. The motivation
(https://imgur.com/8ybNDeT.png)
It’s not news to anyone that the current staggered layout we have is not ideal for the anatomy of the hands. According to specialists (see [1]), when long work and study hours are concerned, the current default layout causes lesions including, but not limited to :
- Wrist and finger joints degradation caused by the rapid movement the fingers make while applying pressure;
- Forearm muscle injuries due to the sometimes intense movement that the hands have to perform to cover the entire keyboard, specially on the modifier keys;
- Tendinitis and in some rare cases even tendon tearing due to the stretching the wrist and hands have to make to access important keys such as escape, backspace and enter;
- Spinal injuries due to posture: since the user must actively move their hands all over the keyboard, they tend to not sit straight;
- Shoulder and neck damage due to the angle of the arms when using the keyboard, which makes the user lean front and transfer their body weight to the shoulders and elbows. Since the keyboard is smaller than the average human shoulder distance, the hands have to approximate to one another; the arms then make an angle that has to be thoroughly adjusted to match the keys placement;
To remedy this, we as a community have come up with four solutions:
- To solve the difficulty of reaching certain modifier keys, we modify our layouts by deploying split shifts, backspace, wider spacebars to make the keyboard feel more comfortable to the user whilst still delivering a default typing experience that won’t make the user need to re-learn the layout;
- To adress the shoulder/elbow curvature there is the most prominent ergonomic layout to date in our community --the Alice layout, from which sprouted numerous other keyboards; the main disadvantage being the small time it takes you to adjust to the layout;
- To adress the issue of finger joints some people use ortho layouts, which conform each finger to a particular column and makes it more comfortable to use;
- To deal with the shoulder distancing, some people use split keyboards that allow the hands to rest in a more natural position instead of forcing the arms inwards towards the body
The issue with the Alice layout is that it solves only a portion of the issues, by giving the alphanumeric keys a twelve-degree angle that adapts to the angle of the wrists. This solves the last two issues and the third one partially, but the first and second one are still there: some important keys -- like modifiers and numbers -- are still out of reach. As a result, the user has to stretch their hand and wrist unnecessarily. For example, you still have to lift your wrist to use the numbers, or press backspace with your pinky by stretching your hand and stressing your tendon. The ortho layout option also is not 100% efficient because it does not take into account the natural curvature of the hands and the fingers in such a way that you have to force joints to make the fingers conform to a particular column.
Now, me and a great friend of mine, Tom, saw these issues as an opportunity to bring to the community our own unique take on this matter and develop an entirely new ergo layout. And, approximately six months ago, we started concocting the awesome idea of bringing a true ergonomic layout to this community.
2. The Sagittarius Layout
Tom was a med neurosurgery student and had connections with some of the top med researchers of our country. So we reached out to some peers in physiotherapy and orthopedics departments to give us some direction as to what are the state-of-the-art techniques in rehabilitation and ergonomics.
We eventually fell into an amazing and deep bunny hole of a field in psychology and anatomy called Nonconventional Human-Machine Interaction and studied some of what it had to give us.
The main references we used were [2], a PhD thesis that studies a thorough mathematical development of the human hand movement; [3], [4] and [5] develop human hand models to predict torque and forces on joints; [5] defines a way of modelling the hand movements from a mechanical model with special emphasis on rehabilitation models.
From these, we used some techniques in [6] to define nonlinear numerical optimization algorithms and that’s where the eureka! comes in. The optimization parameters of the hand can be defined as strains and forces, and that’s what we did: Tom had some measurements from his graduate thesis -- where he worked in the rehabilitation of hand bone and joints injuries -- and we could use some real-life data to define optimal parameters for hand movement, given from people that suffer first hand (pun intended) from hand joint and bone injuries.
So not only we had the hand modelling ready, we also had real-life measurements that we could use to fine tune optimization parameters to make our results more credible and attuned to reality.
The idea here is simple. If we define a cartesian axis on the escape key, each key can be understood as a (x,y) pair and we can define a distance function. By integrating this distance function to respect with the wrist angle, as a function of the position and speed and deviation from wrist normal position, we establish one optimization parameter. The second one being the stretching of the hands when you need to press a key -- we defined a highly nonlinear cost function that would rise greatly when the hand needed to stretch above 90% of its size when completely open. Finally, we can use the mechanical models of the hand to determine the torque and forces that actuate on joints and tendons, making the third optimization parameter.
The end optimization function then is taken by exhaustive iteration of the optimization parameters when sorting the layout; some keys are nonlinearly placed. In some cases where results were inconclusive we had to use brute-force optimization methods like machine learning and evolutionary algorithms to determine the best layout.
Then we used the real-life measurements to determine which parameters fit the real-world results and we could define which best layout yielded the most anatomic profile.
I used Karash-Kun-Tucker [7] algorithms to solve the optimization problem. Since the optimization functions were discontinuous and sometimes undifferentiable in some spots, conventional linear optimization failed to yield the results we wanted. The method is thoroughly developed in [8]. The empirical parameters were fitted using nonlinear least squares methods and the optimizing equations were developed in Python programming language with SciPy minimizing libraries. The results were then translated into a keyboard layout and a PCB was designed.
Of course, setting optimization parameters, cost functions and weights is not always an exact science. Also, due to the base kit compromise we made, not every iteration yielded a feasible layout. The layout went through 17 different iterations before taking this final form, when we were happy with the results.
To make a long story short, we developed a unique and mathematically optimized layout that diminished shoulder, finger and wrist strain while using a mechanical keyboard; this is why we called this layout an optimized ergonomic layout.
We came up with this layout:
(https://imgur.com/kwWbrxh.png)
Which might look strange at a first glance, but bare with me for a second. As you guys can see, each single key has a particular angle; the keyboard is composed of two key clusters that are distanced so as to match the average shoulder distance and angle of the wrists while typing. Also the key angles and distances are fine-tuned so that the user can reach any key in the keyboard without needing to lift the wrists from their rest.
The keyboard also has a neat feature that the left cluster has a slightly sharper angle; that is because in normal typing the left hand generally rests while the right one moves more due to the shift, enter and backspace keys, which are all on the right side.
As an ode to yutski’s amazing contribution -- the Alice layout -- we added a key cluster on the top left; each key supports rotary encoders for those who like fancy features.
The “Sagittarius” name came as an inside joke between me and Tom that the Alice has no arrow keys and that accessing the arrows is not intuitive on that layout; so we added the keys on the bottom right as a layout option, resembling the centaur arrows. And, of course, Tom himself was a Sagittarius!
Also we added your everyday options -- split backspace, split right shift, stepped caps -- and, to appeal to our european fellows, Sagittarius also supports an ISO version!
Of course, in order for the layout to fit the usual key sizes, we had to make some concessions on the true ergonomy. First, the spacebars. Ideally a curved and lengthy spacebar is needed, but I doubt you can get a curved spacebar with your preferred GMK set. Also some keys had to be readjusted or moved so that a 2.25 option was available. Finally, I wanted the right key cluster to be a tad bit more angled but I couldn’t do it without compromising the ISO layout.
3. The PCB and the case
(https://imgur.com/z5CBjQY.png)
(https://imgur.com/PDpc20d.png)
The PCB will of course feature all features a grown-up PCB has:
- USBC connector
- ESD protection on USD data lines;
- Independant inrush and ESD filtering on USB power lines;
- MCU power isolation and filtering, making the PCB more reliable;
- Sweet RGB lighting in the form of the Sagittarius constellation;
- Newer ARM MCU processor;
- VIA compatibility;
- Each one of the top left keys are compatible with rotary encoders; you can use one, two or even all four of them at the same time;
- Relief cuts for the flex;
Though I say so myself, the routing of the PCB is beautiful and if by far the most complex project I have ever worked on.
The case was designed by none other than Upas, the man who brought us Satisfaction75, Brutal60 and Savage65; it features a gasket mounted plate, a nice slick outer look and . The GB will be handled by Cannonkeys, a known big vendor in the community.
(https://imgur.com/PUb2N6h.png)
(https://imgur.com/8ybNDeT.png)
(https://imgur.com/p0w1vL2.png)
(https://imgur.com/fQBmOyr.png)
(https://imgur.com/T5QADvt.png)
5. About Tom
Mid-way through the development of our layout and the nerdgasmic reunions we had to discuss optimization algorithms, we lost Tom to depression. As an aggravating factor, his family was always struggling with money and with funeral costs they went outright bankrupt; his little brother almost dropped out of college to work and help the family out. We are facing a big economic crisis in Brazil and his father is unemployed.
I was absolutely not letting that situation be Tom’s legacy, and I am going to make sure his brother sees through college. So I took the next month, finished the calculations and the layout optimization and, mid-way through the design of the PCB, I sent a desperate cry to Upas at Cannonkeys to help me run this keyboard and help Tom’s family.
EDIT: case design was finished and we took the feedback. The new case design should be here any moment as the new prototypes were already ordered
I did consult with Tom’s family for this and every single step and information I am disclosing was not taken without their consent. That includes an excerpt from a poem Tom wrote in grad school, which talked about grief and despair.
Tom and I were always huge advocates of free information, so after the GB ends I will open-source the PCB and the layout so that the community can experiment on it -- it also wouldn’t be a typical PCB of mine if it weren't open source now, would it? Since we used closed measurements for the optimization algorithms, however, I can’t disclose the programs I developed nor the exact method and routines I programmed because those are currently being used to write a paper yet to be published.
6. What we need feedback on
Having given my reasoning and the design procedure, I need you guys to give me me feedback on:
The overall idea of ergonomy optimization. I know this is not a big thing in the community but I have heard many cases of peers amongst us that are suffering with hand and arm injuries from keyboard usage;
The layout keyset compatibility. After optimization, the layout was adapted so that it could fit into the usual base kit of keycap sets -- who doesn't hate having to buy a 40 dollar kit just so you can use your favourite layout? However, I am not sure if you guys are going to like the choices that were made.
Aesthetics: of course this is a hobby based on looks. After Tom’s passing I devised a logo and used a piece of a poem of his, but I don’t know if it’s too deep or sentimental.
7. Acknowledgements
Of course, Tom. I hope he is in a better place now and his family recovers from their loss.
Upas from cannonkeys, who in a heartbeat agreed to make this a reality and help me do this. I am simply humbled by how this guy helped me in making this a reality. I sleep better because of you.
MrKeebs, always a huge supporter of my designs, even paying for the early prototypes of the first Acheron Project PCBs.
Whoever was kind enough to read this IC to here and give thoughts. Thank you for your time and patience.
8. Layouts test sheets
Check out these files if you want to try out the optimized ergonomic Sagittaqrius layout for yourself! You can print them, cut and assemble the layout.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1hp7NIgQ7yLNXQOCz2PxROp85z_ob5-L6?usp=sharing
9. References
[1] Pascarelli, M.D. and Quilter, Deborah. Repetitive Strain Injury: A Computer User's Guide. Wiley Books, 1994.
[2] Stillfried, Georg. Kinematic modelling of the human hand for robotics. Doctorate Thesis, Technischen Universität München.
[3] Peña-Pitarch et al. Virtual human hand: model and kinematics. Computer Methods in Biomechanics and Biomedical Engineering, vol.17, 2014.
[4] Nierop et al. A natural human hand model. Visual Comput, 2008, pp. 31–44.
[5] Casolo, Frederico; Lorenzi, Vittorio. Finger Mathematical Modeling and Rehabilitation. Advances in the Biomechanics of the Hand and Wrist, pp 197-223.
[6] Mossar, Rahman. Mathematical Modeling and Trajectory Planning of Hand Finger Movements. 2014 First International Conference on Systems Informatics, Modelling and Simulation, 2014.
[7] Karash-Tun-Tucker nichtlinearen Optimierung. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karush-Kuhn-Tucker-Bedingungen, accessed in march 23, 2020.
10. Updates
- 20 Jun 2020: Added printable layout test sheets.
- 26 Jun 2020: Case revamp in progress. We took the feedback and are trying to harmonize the case with the layout.
- 14 Aug 2020: New case design finished and new prototypes ordered! We should see some pictures soon.
- 5 Nov 2020: GB dates announced
We heard your feedback and re-designed the case! It got curvier, chonkier and MORE AWESOME:
(https://i.imgur.com/JhJ3gQv.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/v4pRPsf.jpg)
12. GB announcement
After yesterday's Minterly stream you guys were able to see the new iteration of the case in action with the glorious RGB constellation!
Stream link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/792335918
Dates
The Sagittarius keyboard Group Buy will start in Sagittarius season, of course! Beggining in november 21 until november 27 at 11:59 PM EST.
Prices and proxies
The standard kit contains:
- 1x 6063 aluminum board top
- 1x 6063 aluminum board bottom
- 1x Brass weight
- 1x Brass plate
- PCB, JST cable, USB daughterboard
- Mounting Hardware (screws, poron gasket strips and bumpons)
- Microfiber cloth and padded zip case with foam
And the extras are:
- PCB + JST cable + daughterboard kit
- Gasket set
- FR4 plate
- Brass plate
Each proxy will region lock their pages and open the GB page at a different time.
(NA) Cannonkeys - 175 units (opens nov 21st 11AM EST)
Prices:
- Standard kit: 485 USD
- Extra PCB kit: 55 USD
- Extra gasket set: 4 USD
- Extra FR4 plate: 30 USD
- Extra brass plate: 55 USD
(Europe) Prototypist.net - 50 units
Prices TBD
(OC) Dailyclack - 50 units
Prices TBD
(AS) ilumkb - 75 units
Prices TBD
Colors
Top / Bottom
Navy / Silver (same colors as the prototype Taeha built but with the revised case of course)
Black / Red
Gray / Lilac
E-white / Gold
PCB details
VIA, QMK, USBC DB, RGB, and more acronyms I can't remember
Open-source
Curvy and brazilian (just like me)
Thank you guys for supporting me and Tom! I will add more information ASAP!
Post by: dimo on Thu, 18 June 2020, 16:59:47
Post by: cijanzen on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:00:55
Edit: I also really appreciate that you went to the lengths to reference your sources!
Post by: Zeelobby on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:01:33
And RIP Tom, and sorry Gondo. I'm hoping this journey gives you some closure and am ready to help chip in to help Tom's family. I know he'd love knowing that your doing this for him and his own.
Post by: ubmit on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:02:40
Post by: ilikerustoo on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:03:34
Post by: glazeds0n on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:03:50
Post by: MrBingo on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:05:00
Post by: bigburpsx3 on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:05:16
Post by: rikercd on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:06:17
I'm kidding, I'm buying one.
Post by: crusader_alex on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:07:29
Sent from my HD1913 using Tapatalk
Post by: planccck on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:07:37
Post by: dededecline on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:07:53
As someone who really enjoys ortho, ergo, and alice-style layouts I really like the layout out the gate - my suggestion would be to try what was done with Kyria and have a printable version of the layout available so people can see how they like typing on it https://docs.splitkb.com/hc/en-us/articles/360010627159-Can-I-try-the-Kyria-before-I-buy-
Post by: Løki on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:08:11
Post by: qriousgabriel on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:08:26
Post by: OJtheTiny on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:09:01
Post by: Madrai on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:09:24
Post by: Capsy on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:10:25
Post by: sedxr on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:10:40
Post by: DukeEsquire on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:10:50
Post by: NoxNoxNox on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:12:32
Post by: upas on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:14:00
Having typed on the prototype, it greatly encourages proper touch typing and I feel my hands moving far less than on a normal keyboard.
Some FR4 sandwich prototypes are on their way to Gondolindrim right now, and we hope to get more prototypes into the hands of some streamers to try out this keyboard!
Post by: yourfavorite on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:14:04
Count me in for a board. Just need to know the date. This looks great.
Post by: saltynarwhal on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:14:58
Post by: maniKKusu on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:16:41
Post by: TheArcticFox_27 on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:17:14
Post by: driftingbunnies on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:22:26
Post by: bsands on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:23:45
Post by: kidpid on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:25:17
(https://i.imgur.com/OF2QR9V.jpg)
The blue corners are large circular corners, they're a very chill design. This seems consistent with the pretty large fillet.
The red and orange corners are very sudden, not very rounded at all, and pretty aggressive. There's not really any cohesion between the the edge corners and the bottom piece. It looks like someone took a rounded bar and then slapped a random piece on the bottom.
Compare to the Nunu, which I think is the best looking Alice variant keyboard:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32728606057_262801b0aa_k.jpg)
The curves and the lines all flow together, the board has cohesion.
I think the curved aesthetic fits well with the relaxed curvature of the layout, but that bottom part seems out of place.
I also think the bezels are much too large, although I'm sure plenty will disagree with me here. There's already enough dead space in the middle of the keyboard due to the layout, and the bezels just end up exaggerating all the empty space.
Post by: cambo2018 on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:27:04
Post by: Kokaloo on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:29:17
Post by: MeloDet on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:30:03
Post by: architones on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:33:57
Post by: lofi_network on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:36:31
Post by: Xemnova on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:38:01
Post by: LightningXI on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:39:42
This writeup sure is reminiscent of many papers I've read along a very passionate description of the work you've accomplished!
Will continue to pay attention to this thread as it develops.
Post by: i luv chuletas on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:42:47
I'm sorry about your friend Tom, would gladly buy this just to help the cause. But the fact that the design of the layout of itself could be your engineering Thesis, and looks utterly unique and inviting to say the least is just the cherry on top.
I'm kind of glad I got to see you working on this now, gives it an even bigger connection with its designer.
Only note I would make is to perhaps dial down the roundness of the outer curves, as it seems jarring compared to the inner ones.
Cheers brother, congratulations on an exceptional board.
Post by: stein3 on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:43:36
Maybe 1.25u 2u makes more sense for the left spacebar?
I'd also love to see a second B key on the right, but I'm weird like that.
Post by: baobaozi on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:44:06
Sorry to hear about Tom passing.
Post by: Acereconkeys on Thu, 18 June 2020, 17:52:08
Awesome work, I think there's great discussion going on already about the differing opinions on the case design. I had a quick question on the layout design. You mention in your writeup one of your goals was to solve the following problem:
Quote
Forearm muscle injuries due to the sometimes intense movement that the hands have to perform to cover the entire keyboard, specially on the modifier keys;
I was wondering if you could point to the element of your layout that addresses this issue? I'm looking at it and it seems the distance between key modifiers like backspace and enter are not spaced closer to the homerow than on a normal keyboard.
Post by: FunBox on Thu, 18 June 2020, 18:19:11
Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 18 June 2020, 18:22:17
kinda ugly kinda cute
I hope cute wins haha
Post by: japanesehorrorwriter on Thu, 18 June 2020, 18:23:22
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 18 June 2020, 18:26:54
This is really cool and well thought out! The only thing I wished was different is that the front was a curve instead of flat. It would flow with the keycaps so much better that way.
Edit: I also really appreciate that you went to the lengths to reference your sources!
We felt that this looked and was better with the layout. We might try this out, plus making the bottom curves smoother as many people are pointing out, but we will take criticism and will take a look into making it better
Post by: ghstgrl on Thu, 18 June 2020, 18:28:58
Some design input, I agree with kidpid that the angular bottom looks a little odd with the large radius corner filets. I think perhaps either lowering the radius of the corners or adding a little bit of curve onto the bottom edges might solve that issue (but please do keep the more rounded corners, I think it's what makes this board unique in terms of looks aside of the layout).
If it's within my budget I'm definitely interested :) .
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 18 June 2020, 18:29:16
Welp. I'm ready. Watched the PCB being made. Twiddled thumbs patiently. Let's goooo.
And RIP Tom, and sorry Gondo. I'm hoping this journey gives you some closure and am ready to help chip in to help Tom's family. I know he'd love knowing that your doing this for him and his own.
hyped for this! thanks for all the work, my friend!
nice
Very well though out and developed. Great work! I'm definitely interested.
Sent from my HD1913 using Tapatalk
Nice :eek:
Yep that's doing it for me.
Interested
This looks like an expensive board, but I'm still down, always been a big fan of ergo boards and quirky layouts
looks stunning. 100% down for this
I like how you added the references at the end. Well, RIP wallet.
I agree that the case could use some refinement, but in all honesty I am probably buying this either way. That layout is just too good to pass up.
This looks ****ing amazing. Period.
In
Great project my friend! Hoping everything goes well!
YES, Its finally in ic! I am so excited for this
Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
Looks great! :thumb:
First, I'm so sorry to hear about Tom. All the best to you, his friends and his family.
Count me in for a board. Just need to know the date. This looks great.
Gondo, you're a treasure :thumb:
Count me interested in this. Appreciate the attention to detail on the layout.
I've spent decades typing, and having an ergo-focused board like this is a dream. Agree re: picking either sharp or rounded corners and sticking to one, but very excited for this either way.
Thanks guys, this means a lot to me and everyone involved!
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 18 June 2020, 18:33:01
Agreed, the sharp corners could be curved and it would better suit the rest of the case.
Sorry to hear about Tom passing.
I'm intrigued by the layout, but the case is kinda... off-putting? It feels like it doesn't have any consistent design language when you look at it from the top. Maybe it's mostly the corners that weird me out. Here's a diagram to help explain:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/OF2QR9V.jpg)
The blue corners are large circular corners, they're a very chill design. This seems consistent with the pretty large fillet.
The red and orange corners are very sudden, not very rounded at all, and pretty aggressive. There's not really any cohesion between the the edge corners and the bottom piece. It looks like someone took a rounded bar and then slapped a random piece on the bottom.
Compare to the Nunu, which I think is the best looking Alice variant keyboard:Show Image(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32728606057_262801b0aa_k.jpg)
The curves and the lines all flow together, the board has cohesion.
I think the curved aesthetic fits well with the relaxed curvature of the layout, but that bottom part seems out of place.
I also think the bezels are much too large, although I'm sure plenty will disagree with me here. There's already enough dead space in the middle of the keyboard due to the layout, and the bezels just end up exaggerating all the empty space.
Man.. what a journey this must have been (and still is) for you Gondo.
I'm sorry about your friend Tom, would gladly buy this just to help the cause. But the fact that the design of the layout of itself could be your engineering Thesis, and looks utterly unique and inviting to say the least is just the cherry on top.
I'm kind of glad I got to see you working on this now, gives it an even bigger connection with its designer.
Only note I would make is to perhaps dial down the roundness of the outer curves, as it seems jarring compared to the inner ones.
Cheers brother, congratulations on an exceptional board.
We are taking a look into this. Unfortunately nothing about this keyboard is easy or simple and simple changes can take up to hours, if not days to hone and refine. We will keep an eye on the valid criticisms guys, thank you so much for the writeups
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 18 June 2020, 18:39:21
Sorry to hear the news about Tom.
This writeup sure is reminiscent of many papers I've read along a very passionate description of the work you've accomplished!
Will continue to pay attention to this thread as it develops.
After almost a year and a half of development, the way I present this should reflect the level of the ideas we put into it. Although there is some artistry here, this is still a very academic development project and as such I chose to present this IC as an article-esque type, and it brings me joy to read from you that I succeeded. Thanks dude.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 18 June 2020, 18:47:26
First of all, I just want to say i'm sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.
Awesome work, I think there's great discussion going on already about the differing opinions on the case design. I had a quick question on the layout design. You mention in your writeup one of your goals was to solve the following problem:QuoteForearm muscle injuries due to the sometimes intense movement that the hands have to perform to cover the entire keyboard, specially on the modifier keys;
I was wondering if you could point to the element of your layout that addresses this issue? I'm looking at it and it seems the distance between key modifiers like backspace and enter are not spaced closer to the homerow than on a normal keyboard.
The main idea of the Alice angles and, ultimately, of the curved clusters of Sagittarius, is that due to the breadth of the shoulders the hands approach the keyboard at an angle. As such, when we try to type in a straight normal layout, the hand has to bend the wrist to make it work. This is the first way to solve the issue.
What the Alice didn't do is that since the 12 degree angle is constant, the distance between the left space and the backspace is not doable without you lifting your wrist to press it. In Sagittarius, you can keep your thumb on the spacebar while also being able to reach enter and space with the pinky.
Post by: d4vid4f on Thu, 18 June 2020, 18:54:28
Post by: bigern302 on Thu, 18 June 2020, 18:55:41
I hope this project is a screaming success.
So sorry to hear about Tom. All the best to his family.
Post by: synthtastic on Thu, 18 June 2020, 19:00:34
Unpopular opinion time: keep logos on the back / bottom / under a paper bag where no one will see them again. Cannon Keys doesn’t have a nice logo lol. Same goes for any brand that wants to impose itself on the front of a keyboard you have to look at every day.
Post by: Acereconkeys on Thu, 18 June 2020, 19:04:31
First of all, I just want to say i'm sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.
Awesome work, I think there's great discussion going on already about the differing opinions on the case design. I had a quick question on the layout design. You mention in your writeup one of your goals was to solve the following problem:QuoteForearm muscle injuries due to the sometimes intense movement that the hands have to perform to cover the entire keyboard, specially on the modifier keys;
I was wondering if you could point to the element of your layout that addresses this issue? I'm looking at it and it seems the distance between key modifiers like backspace and enter are not spaced closer to the homerow than on a normal keyboard.
The main idea of the Alice angles and, ultimately, of the curved clusters of Sagittarius, is that due to the breadth of the shoulders the hands approach the keyboard at an angle. As such, when we try to type in a straight normal layout, the hand has to bend the wrist to make it work. This is the first way to solve the issue.
What the Alice didn't do is that since the 12 degree angle is constant, the distance between the left space and the backspace is not doable without you lifting your wrist to press it. In Sagittarius, you can keep your thumb on the spacebar while also being able to reach enter and space with the pinky.
Ah Okay i see your point. The wrist doesn't "lift" but it just rotates. That seems to be the distinction I was missing.
Post by: myflowsocold on Thu, 18 June 2020, 19:09:01
Post by: mysticworks on Thu, 18 June 2020, 19:22:56
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 18 June 2020, 19:33:34
Wow
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BoldFlickeringAmericanshorthair-size_restricted.gif)
Post by: senencito on Thu, 18 June 2020, 19:37:51
Question about the rotary encoder buttons. Does that mean you can put a knob(like the s75 knob) in all four keys?
If so this would be an outstanding board for people who work a lot in Lightroom
Post by: KevlarBear on Thu, 18 June 2020, 20:00:29
Post by: gorbachev on Thu, 18 June 2020, 20:43:02
I'm really looking forward to seeing this project get completed. My wallet curses you, however.
Post by: elguey on Thu, 18 June 2020, 20:51:45
Hey there, That's a very interesting design.
Question about the rotary encoder buttons. Does that mean you can put a knob(like the s75 knob) in all four keys?
If so this would be an outstanding board for people who work a lot in Lightroom
the Sagittarius pcb picture in the first post says "four simultaneous rotary encoders support" so my guess is yes.
Post by: MeloDet on Thu, 18 June 2020, 21:13:52
Post by: Findecanor on Thu, 18 June 2020, 21:25:51
I just think it is sad that you are mostly copying Alice's layout for the left-hand side instead of borrowing more from the right hand side to make it more symmetric. You could also have had a few more keys on the bottom row. Personally I want right Alt right under the . (period) key.
The idea of having curved rows isn't that far-fetched, really (just look at Microsoft's or Logitech's ergo keyboards!) but a gradual hybrid between row-staggered and column-staggered hasn't been done before and it is not straightforward to compute it with constraints. It is also not straightforward to analyse and motivate the ergonomic merits of the layout — definitely not enough for an academic paper.
I'm a little bit miffed now TBH, that because you announced your curved keyboard first: when my keyboard eventually gets released (if ever) no doubt some people are just going to see it as a "Sagittarius-derivative", when it really isn't. :-þ (I had wanted that "wow"... :-[ )
I started writing my layout program (also in Python, coincidentally) last summer, but I have got stuck on choosing the best thumb-keys. One thing that have irked me is that gap between a straight space bar and a curved bottom alphabetic row.
It's a bit ballsy to put a narrow sliver of case-top to fill that gap! I suppose you can do that if you CNC it from 7mm aluminium, where I had planned to laser-cut my case from thinner stock of acrylic or wood that would have been almost guaranteed to break if cut that narrowly.
Post by: mrpetrov on Thu, 18 June 2020, 21:37:22
Post by: Mekanist on Thu, 18 June 2020, 21:40:45
Post by: vi0till on Thu, 18 June 2020, 21:43:25
I’d be all in if there were a right side B.
I hope this project is a screaming success.
So sorry to hear about Tom. All the best to his family.
Post by: Aevyn on Thu, 18 June 2020, 21:48:23
Also the space between the split bars and the rest of the cluster doesn't look good IMO. Probably will skip out on the case, but once the pcb is open sourced, will definitely look to make my own as I like this layout.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 18 June 2020, 21:56:38
I can see how you developed the design for the right-hand side and how it defined the opening angle, because I have had a similar design based on the same idea that I have worked on now and then over a number of years.
I just think it is sad that you are mostly copying Alice's layout for the left-hand side instead of borrowing more from the right hand side to make it more symmetric. You could also have had a few more keys on the bottom row. Personally I want right Alt right under the . (period) key.
The idea of having curved rows isn't that far-fetched, really (just look at Microsoft's or Logitech's ergo keyboards!) but a gradual hybrid between row-staggered and column-staggered hasn't been done before and it is not straightforward to compute it with constraints. It is also not straightforward to analyse and motivate the ergonomic merits of the layout — definitely not enough for an academic paper.
I'm a little bit miffed now TBH, that because you announced your curved keyboard first: when my keyboard eventually gets released (if ever) no doubt some people are just going to see it as a "Sagittarius-derivative", when it really isn't. :-þ (I had wanted that "wow"... :-[ )
I started writing my layout program (also in Python, coincidentally) last summer, but I have got stuck on choosing the best thumb-keys. One thing that have irked me is that gap between a straight space bar and a curved bottom alphabetic row.
It's a bit ballsy to put a narrow sliver of case-top to fill that gap! I suppose you can do that if you CNC it from 7mm aluminium, where I had planned to laser-cut my case from thinner stock of acrylic or wood that would have been almost guaranteed to break if cut that narrowly.
I am really sorry about this and for what it's worth I didn't know you were developing an ergonomic layou and Sagittarius has been in the making since the Alice GB came up, that is, an year and a half ago. I don't intend to compete, nor will I want that conotation to this reply. Sagittarius is about innovation; it's innovative enough that it has its own thing going. If you innovate enough, you'll have yours. It's that simple.
I don't know what to answer to you. Is Sagittarius a bad keyboard, a good keyboard? Are the Microsoft or Logitech's ergo better? Is the Alice better? This is a very passionate project for me and before editing this reply I made this huge-ass I WORKED MY ASS OFF AND YOU SHOULD LIKE IT kind of reply, only to reckon that I sounded pityful. All I can say is, this is the best I could do. This keyboard was born from two childhood friends that studied for 15+ years to become the best in their fields, and thought they could use their education and skillset to passionately bring something so truly unique to this community we love so much that anyone could take a look into this keyboard and immediately recognize this is a one-of-a-kind board which every single detail was considered and polished. This is also about Upas, who not only had to pick the project in the middle, but had nothing to do with the situation and still did it with the best spirit I have ever seen in anyone in this community, and is taking the criticisms of his case design on the chin -- even though, as a vendor, he agreed to take reduced profits to help Tom. None of us are multi-billion dollar companies with teams of engineers working fulltime. You mention Microsoft, but the Microsoft Ergo was a breakthrough and by the time of deliver they had spent no less than several hundred thousand dollars into development -- money which we don't have.
I want to take this response to publicly and openly say that Upas is one of the finest people in the hobby and one of my closest friends, and I'm deeply and forever grateful that he's doing this not for me, but for a person he doesn't even know, for a situation he couldn't care less. When I asked him for help to run this, the man didn't even flinch. "Let's make this a reality", he said. This single phrase impacted me so much that I imbued it onto the PCB.
As for "academically worthy" or "enough", if you have any scientific comments I'll adopt them. The methods are there, the algorithms are there, the results are there. Feel free to criticize them, but to outright say that this is not academic enough is not only a bold statement and one you can't sustain as you haven't accompanied the years of research we spent, but also kind of hits me in a very personal way because this is what I do for a living; you are basically saying I'm a bad researcher.
The papers being written are two, one in the applied optimization field and another in the recovery medicine field. If the papers written are worthy of high-level journals or conferences is not up to you, but to the reviewers of the conferences and journals we submitted the papers to.
Post by: beefwelldone on Thu, 18 June 2020, 21:58:42
I'm intrigued by the layout, but the case is kinda... off-putting? It feels like it doesn't have any consistent design language when you look at it from the top. Maybe it's mostly the corners that weird me out. Here's a diagram to help explain:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/OF2QR9V.jpg)
The blue corners are large circular corners, they're a very chill design. This seems consistent with the pretty large fillet.
The red and orange corners are very sudden, not very rounded at all, and pretty aggressive. There's not really any cohesion between the the edge corners and the bottom piece. It looks like someone took a rounded bar and then slapped a random piece on the bottom.
Compare to the Nunu, which I think is the best looking Alice variant keyboard:Show Image(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32728606057_262801b0aa_k.jpg)
The curves and the lines all flow together, the board has cohesion.
I think the curved aesthetic fits well with the relaxed curvature of the layout, but that bottom part seems out of place.
I also think the bezels are much too large, although I'm sure plenty will disagree with me here. There's already enough dead space in the middle of the keyboard due to the layout, and the bezels just end up exaggerating all the empty space.
agree with this, as a fan of ergo layout and love the innovation, I would buy Sagitarius. Pcb and overall layout design is nice, but something isn't right with the case design for me. the bottom part seems nice alone but when put into full case it's strange, it will look better with wristrest.
Post by: SuddenlyDonkey on Thu, 18 June 2020, 22:02:34
This looks great.
Unpopular opinion time: keep logos on the back / bottom / under a paper bag where no one will see them again. Cannon Keys doesn’t have a nice logo lol. Same goes for any brand that wants to impose itself on the front of a keyboard you have to look at every day.
This. I understand you're proud of your work. You make nice stuff. I want to buy your nice stuff. Don't doodle on your nice stuff...
I'm looking at you MD2 deskmats!
More on topic: I really dig this direction and have been anticipating the IC since I first read about the layout. I hope you can add a little bit more elegance and finesse this board into something truly amazing.
Post by: MeloDet on Thu, 18 June 2020, 22:43:30
Post by: appallingpaul on Thu, 18 June 2020, 22:57:06
Post by: Acoipat on Thu, 18 June 2020, 23:26:21
I'm sorry for the loss of Tom but I'm glad you are continuing the project in his memory! I'll be following along closely and looking forward to the case and layout being refined even more.
I'm not sure if this has been addressed but I'm personally a big fan of a column of modifier keys on the right side of the layout in addition to the left. I find mods on the right much more convenient due to their proximity to the mouse hand (which is the right hand for most). Not sure if it's too late for such a big change, but thought I'd just bring it up.
Also, I know colours are probably a while away but +1 for PC case and plate
Post by: kidviddy on Thu, 18 June 2020, 23:28:58
One small layout request, which I’m not sure whether it would be easy or tricky to accommodate given you already have the 1.25Shift/UpArray alternative in place: I would really like to be able to swap the right shift and function key, so the 1U appears on the left and the larger shift key appears on the right. As a JIS user, this would allow me to place the extra 1U key to the right of ?/. And I think I’m right in saying it would also enable ABNT layouts as well?
I realise that both JIS and ABNT are minority layouts, but if it’s the sort of thing that could be added without too much difficulty it might be worth considering. Given that this part of your layout is already horizontal, I don’t think it will mess with the ergonomics too much.
EDIT: Also, I know the Alice does it this way as well, and it’s always puzzled me there, too, but I think the 6 should go with the right half, next to the 7. I was always trained to hit the 6 with my right index finger, and that habit has only got stronger since I started using ortholinear keyboards. Is this a common feature of ergonomic layouts?
Post by: fabijolo on Fri, 19 June 2020, 00:01:59
Post by: platypusduck on Fri, 19 June 2020, 00:51:45
I can see how you developed the design for the right-hand side and how it defined the opening angle, because I have had a similar design based on the same idea that I have worked on now and then over a number of years.
I just think it is sad that you are mostly copying Alice's layout for the left-hand side instead of borrowing more from the right hand side to make it more symmetric. You could also have had a few more keys on the bottom row. Personally I want right Alt right under the . (period) key.
The idea of having curved rows isn't that far-fetched, really (just look at Microsoft's or Logitech's ergo keyboards!) but a gradual hybrid between row-staggered and column-staggered hasn't been done before and it is not straightforward to compute it with constraints. It is also not straightforward to analyse and motivate the ergonomic merits of the layout — definitely not enough for an academic paper.
I'm a little bit miffed now TBH, that because you announced your curved keyboard first: when my keyboard eventually gets released (if ever) no doubt some people are just going to see it as a "Sagittarius-derivative", when it really isn't. :-þ (I had wanted that "wow"... :-[ )
I started writing my layout program (also in Python, coincidentally) last summer, but I have got stuck on choosing the best thumb-keys. One thing that have irked me is that gap between a straight space bar and a curved bottom alphabetic row.
It's a bit ballsy to put a narrow sliver of case-top to fill that gap! I suppose you can do that if you CNC it from 7mm aluminium, where I had planned to laser-cut my case from thinner stock of acrylic or wood that would have been almost guaranteed to break if cut that narrowly.
Damn dude, I don't think it's fair to crap on a passion project of three people because you were doing something similar as well. The side swipe on the academic paper isn't called for as well – as you may already know, you can't expect Gondo to put all the parts of a paper in his IC. I don't think the paper is not even finished – ideally not before we get to use this keyboard design.
I hope you'll muster enough confidence in your project to not care about people calling it as just another Sagittarius clone (when it really isn't).
Post by: FunBox on Fri, 19 June 2020, 01:28:29
Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
Post by: 2003987 on Fri, 19 June 2020, 01:31:01
Post by: duckadence on Fri, 19 June 2020, 01:42:48
I just have a few questions about keyboard ergonomics and how you designed the layout.
So lots of people make a big deal about how traditional keyboards force you to bend your wrists (adduction? If I remember my anatomy classes). But I (and probably many others) have noticed that placing the keyboard a sufficient distance away from the body (12-13 inches for me) basically negates wrist movement and bending when typing the alphas. I also perfectly float my fingers, and I notice that my wrist are for the most part completely straight when typing. So how does this work with alice/alice-like layouts. Wouldn't your wrists bend the other way if you keep the keyboard far away enough? And in that vein, did you find in your research that keeping the keyboard closer or further had any impact on the shoulders/torso? What was the verdict?
Also, I noticed that you chose to keep the row stagger? Any reason for that other than ease of use/adaptability (which I do admit is a pretty good reason. Dvorak has treated me much better than Qwerty, but it was a pita to learn.) But seeing as how ortholinear, and even columnar staggered layouts, have a decent fanbase that sing it's praises, I'm wondering if based on your research those layouts give negligible benefits to ergonomics when compared to your layout, or even the standard alice layout.
Yeah, that's pretty much it. I'm generally curious about the research and conclusions you drew. I read a study on various forms of ergo keyboards, but that was pretty old and didn't take into account all the new stuff we have now.
Best of luck with the interest check! If you can get the aesthetics (and sound! Don't forget sound! The typing sound is important!) right, it might possibly be an alice killer with the improved layout.
Post by: Surefoot on Fri, 19 June 2020, 02:22:10
Post by: FunBox on Fri, 19 June 2020, 02:33:15
Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
Post by: Datastream on Fri, 19 June 2020, 02:41:53
Post by: befbef on Fri, 19 June 2020, 02:54:43
Looks weird. Why is left side staggered but right side is almost ortho?Same question. What point in your "doctorate-level academy research" or "mathematical optimization" led to the assumption that the left hand has other ergonomic requirements than the right hand?
Post by: SmilingPudding on Fri, 19 June 2020, 03:52:43
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 19 June 2020, 04:05:07
I don't intend to compete, nor will I want that conotation to this reply. Sagittarius is about innovation; it's innovative enough that it has its own thing going. If you innovate enough, you'll have yours. It's that simple.Nah. Mine is different enough that it would be its own thing. I was just venting my frustration... sorry.
I've kept my idea mostly private because I had wanted the big reveal of the curve, and now that moment won't come.
Feel free to criticize them, but to outright say that this is not academic enough is not only a bold statement and one you can't sustain as you haven't accompanied the years of research we spent, but also kind of hits me in a very personal way because this is what I do for a living; you are basically saying I'm a bad researcher.No, I'm not. I'm sorry if my language was crude and easy to misunderstand.
I'm saying that people who do not have eyes for this like you and I do, they might not understand how complicated this is: they might see this as "just a Microsoft-clone".
I'm also saying that I know that writing a research paper can be an undertaking in itself, and I understand that there can be a lot of work and academic theory behind it. (I've been in academia too, and worked at a HMI research institute, so I'm familiar with the process.)
That said, your language is pretentious and aggressive, and that does rub me the wrong way.
On another forum, I have seen people with something to sell, after seeing a potential competitor intentionally misunderstanding that person and gone to attack, skewing that person's words and trying to make that person look bad. I sincerely hope that is not what you are trying to do. Let's end this now and make peace.
I'm here if you want to discuss, share insights, compare perspectives and algorithms, and brainstorm about changes. That is why my previous post was more than just a couple words.
I'm on this board because I'm a nerd. It is not just a board, it is a community.
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Fri, 19 June 2020, 06:00:17
I just won’t have money for this as well as Gok’s separate project for which you’ve done the PCB as well!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: gecruz on Fri, 19 June 2020, 07:33:39
Post by: mbsurfer on Fri, 19 June 2020, 07:41:33
Post by: FZ on Fri, 19 June 2020, 08:25:20
My suggestions are as follows:
1. Have you considered providing an arrow cluster option in place of the right-side alt and control? Shorter shift to the left of the up arrow and fn key to the right of it?
2. I'm also of the opinion that the rounded edges could be less rounded.
Really enjoying the Austin and the PCB for it. It sounds like similar effort has been placed into this. I look forward to it and wish you all the best.
Post by: konstantin on Fri, 19 June 2020, 08:35:53
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 19 June 2020, 11:47:02
Hey there, That's a very interesting design.
Question about the rotary encoder buttons. Does that mean you can put a knob(like the s75 knob) in all four keys?
If so this would be an outstanding board for people who work a lot in Lightroom
Hey there, That's a very interesting design.
Question about the rotary encoder buttons. Does that mean you can put a knob(like the s75 knob) in all four keys?
If so this would be an outstanding board for people who work a lot in Lightroom
the Sagittarius pcb picture in the first post says "four simultaneous rotary encoders support" so my guess is yes.
Indeed, you can use all four knobs at the same time, you can use one, or even none of them. Each knob can be used both as knob and switch.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 19 June 2020, 11:53:22
I would agree on right side B. I regularly use my right hand for B. I dont really know either right side B is the correct typing method or not. But for practicality at least for anyone who type similar to me, addition of B to the right side would be helpful.I’d be all in if there were a right side B.
I hope this project is a screaming success.
So sorry to hear about Tom. All the best to his family.
There are two problems with right side B.
The first one being of course that you need two B keys and end up having to take one of those extra keyset kits. The second one being that, ultimately, the idea between two angled alpha clusters is to force you touch type. Now this ramificates into two more issues: the first being that if you have two keys for the same character it can mess up your muscular memory, and the second being that the B key is meant to be hit with the left hand on touch typing. We can consider adding an extra B key, but that can interfere with the plans we have for that huge middle space between the alpha clusters (yes, we do have something special intended there).
Post by: MeloDet on Fri, 19 June 2020, 11:54:24
This looks nice.
My suggestions are as follows:
1. Have you considered providing an arrow cluster option in place of the right-side alt and control? Shorter shift to the left of the up arrow and fn key to the right of it?
2. I'm also of the opinion that the rounded edges could be less rounded.
Really enjoying the Austin and the PCB for it. It sounds like similar effort has been placed into this. I look forward to it and wish you all the best.
Check the layout image in the main post, I think they've already got ya covered on the arrow keys.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 19 June 2020, 11:57:41
This looks great.
Unpopular opinion time: keep logos on the back / bottom / under a paper bag where no one will see them again. Cannon Keys doesn’t have a nice logo lol. Same goes for any brand that wants to impose itself on the front of a keyboard you have to look at every day.
This. I understand you're proud of your work. You make nice stuff. I want to buy your nice stuff. Don't doodle on your nice stuff...
I'm looking at you MD2 deskmats!
More on topic: I really dig this direction and have been anticipating the IC since I first read about the layout. I hope you can add a little bit more elegance and finesse this board into something truly amazing.
Nice, thanks for your inputs.
Well, I think you can understand why logos are important. That being said, I must say that this feedback is new to me -- I can't recall people giving this insight into other keyboards that had front-facing logos like the Think 65, the FoxLab Key 65, the TGR 910, or on many other keyboard threads about front facing logos. So maybe our execution was not the best. We'll look into it.
Post by: mcRewind on Fri, 19 June 2020, 12:04:32
Post by: JvMil on Fri, 19 June 2020, 12:06:00
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Fri, 19 June 2020, 12:11:22
My two cents’ worth, and I understand it’s my personal opinion (sorry for the weighty tome):This looks great.
Unpopular opinion time: keep logos on the back / bottom / under a paper bag where no one will see them again. Cannon Keys doesn’t have a nice logo lol. Same goes for any brand that wants to impose itself on the front of a keyboard you have to look at every day.
This. I understand you're proud of your work. You make nice stuff. I want to buy your nice stuff. Don't doodle on your nice stuff...
I'm looking at you MD2 deskmats!
More on topic: I really dig this direction and have been anticipating the IC since I first read about the layout. I hope you can add a little bit more elegance and finesse this board into something truly amazing.
Nice, thanks for your inputs.
Well, I think you can understand why logos are important. That being said, I must say that this feedback is new to me -- I can't recall people giving this insight into other keyboards that had front-facing logos like the Think 65, the FoxLab Key 65, the Klippe, the TGR 910, or on many other keyboard threads about front facing logos. So maybe our execution was not the best.
I like the logo on the Klippe T r4, which will be my first build.
I was put off a bit by the text on the Space65 Cybervoyager, but I, ahem, _think_ the Think6.5 r2 branding is OK enough. So much so that especially the lightbulb logo is a plus, not a minus.
I also liked the plain text of the Prophet from Cable Car Designs.
So I guess you could summarise my preferences as
- plain text engraved or
- a simple discreet logo
... works well, and may even add to the aesthetic rather than detract from it.
To be honest, the logo won’t put me off buying one of these if I have the money. Like I said, I’m interested in the ergo approach you took. If it feels like it fits my hands, anything like the Keyboardio or Kinesis Advantage does, then great.
If it improves on that (challenge accepted..?), then SCORE!
The Cannonkeys logo is probably not the most awesome ever, but it ain’t that bad. It won’t make me _not_ buy this great design. Unless you make it huge and garishly neon pink.
[EDIT:ignore!] Any chance you can publish your finger models and how you arrived at that design? Apologies, I haven’t yet checked your references in detail.
[ADDED:] I read through your description again and spotted something I missed earlier, that your measurements are closed and the subject of a paper currently being written. I hope we can one day see that!]
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Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 19 June 2020, 12:14:17
Think it's really cool that a bunch of thought and research has gone into this layout. Can really feel your passion for the project and how much it means to you.
I just have a few questions about keyboard ergonomics and how you designed the layout.
So lots of people make a big deal about how traditional keyboards force you to bend your wrists (adduction? If I remember my anatomy classes). But I (and probably many others) have noticed that placing the keyboard a sufficient distance away from the body (12-13 inches for me) basically negates wrist movement and bending when typing the alphas. I also perfectly float my fingers, and I notice that my wrist are for the most part completely straight when typing. So how does this work with alice/alice-like layouts. Wouldn't your wrists bend the other way if you keep the keyboard far away enough? And in that vein, did you find in your research that keeping the keyboard closer or further had any impact on the shoulders/torso? What was the verdict?
Also, I noticed that you chose to keep the row stagger? Any reason for that other than ease of use/adaptability (which I do admit is a pretty good reason. Dvorak has treated me much better than Qwerty, but it was a pita to learn.) But seeing as how ortholinear, and even columnar staggered layouts, have a decent fanbase that sing it's praises, I'm wondering if based on your research those layouts give negligible benefits to ergonomics when compared to your layout, or even the standard alice layout.
Yeah, that's pretty much it. I'm generally curious about the research and conclusions you drew. I read a study on various forms of ergo keyboards, but that was pretty old and didn't take into account all the new stuff we have now.
Best of luck with the interest check! If you can get the aesthetics (and sound! Don't forget sound! The typing sound is important!) right, it might possibly be an alice killer with the improved layout.
This here is an interesting question.
We did play with the idea of a layout that had a huge bottom part which forced the user to basically push it far away from the body, it was one of the early prototypes. And indeed it relieves strain on the wrists, but we did find another problem. After some hours of typing we found that the shoulder muscles that are used to keep the arms up -- deltoid, infraspinatus and trapezius -- are in constant tension because you have to keep your arms "afloat". After some time you will get them tired and invariably lower your arms, which is a double trouble now because, due to the layout, you have to keep the arms away from your body but positioned on the table or chair at the same time, promoting a very bad spine curvature. Not only that, we also found when you keep the arms away from your body you dislocate your center of mass forwards, and depending on the way your chair holds your back, either your bottom back muscles or your abdominal are tensioned to keep you upright. I did feel sore pain in the region of latissimus dorsi and teres major muscles. All of this explains why specialists say that the best position to be in while typing is with your spine straight and very well supported by a good chairs. Your elbows should rest in a ninety to 110 degree angle, and also supported by chair armrests. When we understood this, our layout concept shifted immensely towards forcing that particular position.
The row stagger is another very interesting thing. What the majority of people don't understant is that your fingers don't lay completely flat on the keyboard, hence why ortho doesn't work for everyone -- it's hard to keep one finger per column or row when the fingers are curved. The particular row curvature we adopted and the distances/angles are meant to perfectly follow finger movement and curvature in such a way that you can rest your wrist.
Finally, as for DVORAK/QWERTY, analizing the impact of different key layouts was the next step in the process, but due to the obvious reasons I couldn't take it further.
Post by: jakereps on Fri, 19 June 2020, 12:41:37
Post by: the_onlyhope on Fri, 19 June 2020, 12:47:33
I love the HHKB-like FN key. The aesthetics of the case with the gasket addition are great as well. I would prefer it to be at a sharper angle like the Alice, but this is also a board designed for ergonomics and not aesthetics.
Post by: kidpid on Fri, 19 June 2020, 13:05:17
Nice, thanks for your inputs.
Well, I think you can understand why logos are important. That being said, I must say that this feedback is new to me -- I can't recall people giving this insight into other keyboards that had front-facing logos like the Think 65, the FoxLab Key 65, the TGR 910, or on many other keyboard threads about front facing logos. So maybe our execution was not the best. We'll look into it.
Those specific comparisons aren't quite the same, since the logos on the Think65 and TGR 910 are logos of the board, not of the brand. I don't think many keyboards have their brand's logo on the front of the keyboard. Some of the TGR boards do, the Satisfaction 75 does, and a few others. The Think65 and Key 65 both offered options without the logo, as well. Even brands like Keycult and RAMA, with a lot of recognition and clout, put their logos out of direct line of sight. Also, let's not forget that the IC for the Key 65 had multiple pages dedicated to complaints about the logo, which led to the offering of two different logos, as well as an option without a logo entirely.
Post by: voelzmo on Fri, 19 June 2020, 13:22:24
Post by: krautcat on Fri, 19 June 2020, 13:55:45
Hope we will see in the future such designs with columnar stagger.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 19 June 2020, 13:57:37
Well, left part of keyboard is something horrible, right part is so-so, maybe even ok.
Hope we will see in the future such designs with columnar stagger.
You want a reply with that or...?
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Fri, 19 June 2020, 14:25:00
Well, left part of keyboard is something horrible, right part is so-so, maybe even ok.I think he’s asking for constructive feedback, and he gives _a lot_ of background on why he does what he does. So if you use the word “horrible”, you should have a compelling justification. You don’t state your reasoning at all.
Hope we will see in the future such designs with columnar stagger.
He’s also explained why he thinks straight columns that are staggered are not the best solution. Since you didn’t mention that, you probably didn’t bother to read it.
You’re not even riling people up, if that’s what you were aiming for. You just come across as shallow compared to the OP, and probably just aiming to troll.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: synthtastic on Fri, 19 June 2020, 14:55:28
This is again purely opinion. I personally can’t think of any board I like that has badges with logos or branding or any wording on the front. Write a thesis statement on the back or bottom of the keyboard for all I care.This looks great.
Unpopular opinion time: keep logos on the back / bottom / under a paper bag where no one will see them again. Cannon Keys doesn’t have a nice logo lol. Same goes for any brand that wants to impose itself on the front of a keyboard you have to look at every day.
This. I understand you're proud of your work. You make nice stuff. I want to buy your nice stuff. Don't doodle on your nice stuff...
I'm looking at you MD2 deskmats!
More on topic: I really dig this direction and have been anticipating the IC since I first read about the layout. I hope you can add a little bit more elegance and finesse this board into something truly amazing.
Nice, thanks for your inputs.
Well, I think you can understand why logos are important. That being said, I must say that this feedback is new to me -- I can't recall people giving this insight into other keyboards that had front-facing logos like the Think 65, the FoxLab Key 65, the TGR 910, or on many other keyboard threads about front facing logos. So maybe our execution was not the best. We'll look into it.
The TGR logo is a crime against humanity, violating the front of those poor keyboards. Not a fan of badges like on Think (no disrespect towards oldcat and graystudio, they’re the GOATs), but they do add a bit to the design since they aren’t just a “brand”, and you can swap them out.
It’s your board, dude :) You put in the maths for it so do as you please. You won’t please everyone in the end. I do think it looks really damn cool so don’t let the criticism from others deter you. Some will like it, others won’t. Same for everything in life.
Post by: jakereps on Fri, 19 June 2020, 15:00:54
Nice, thanks for your inputs.
Well, I think you can understand why logos are important. That being said, I must say that this feedback is new to me -- I can't recall people giving this insight into other keyboards that had front-facing logos like the Think 65, the FoxLab Key 65, the TGR 910, or on many other keyboard threads about front facing logos. So maybe our execution was not the best. We'll look into it.
Those specific comparisons aren't quite the same, since the logos on the Think65 and TGR 910 are logos of the board, not of the brand. I don't think many keyboards have their brand's logo on the front of the keyboard. Some of the TGR boards do, the Satisfaction 75 does, and a few others. The Think65 and Key 65 both offered options without the logo, as well. Even brands like Keycult and RAMA, with a lot of recognition and clout, put their logos out of direct line of sight. Also, let's not forget that the IC for the Key 65 had multiple pages dedicated to complaints about the logo, which led to the offering of two different logos, as well as an option without a logo entirely.
Fully agree with this comment. I almost edited mine to include the similar callouts. CannonKeys has associated itself as a store; a vendor. They run group buys for other people and sell cases on the side. I can’t go to TGR.com and get milky Gateron Yellows or a keyset. TGR is the “designer” while the CannonKeys logo is not a designer, it’s CannonKeys keyboard accessories storefront. It surprised me how clean the “cheaper” Brutal series is compared to the “high end” models that have the cannon stamped on the top like it’s a Razer keyboard. The Brutal series has a much cleaner aesthetic than the S75 and D65 without the stores logo in your face. If there was a “Upas” logo that was subtle and not associated with a store then I’d be all in but that’s not the _case_.
Post by: duckadence on Fri, 19 June 2020, 15:04:03
This here is an interesting question.
We did play with the idea of a layout that had a huge bottom part which forced the user to basically push it far away from the body, it was one of the early prototypes. And indeed it relieves strain on the wrists, but we did find another problem. After some hours of typing we found that the shoulder muscles that are used to keep the arms up -- deltoid, infraspinatus and trapezius -- are in constant tension because you have to keep your arms "afloat". After some time you will get them tired and invariably lower your arms, which is a double trouble now because, due to the layout, you have to keep the arms away from your body but positioned on the table or chair at the same time, promoting a very bad spine curvature. Not only that, we also found when you keep the arms away from your body you dislocate your center of mass forwards, and depending on the way your chair holds your back, either your bottom back muscles or your abdominal are tensioned to keep you upright. I did feel sore pain in the region of latissimus dorsi and teres major muscles. All of this explains why specialists say that the best position to be in while typing is with your spine straight and very well supported by a good chairs. Your elbows should rest in a ninety to 110 degree angle, and also supported by chair armrests. When we understood this, our layout concept shifted immensely towards forcing that particular position.
The row stagger is another very interesting thing. What the majority of people don't understant is that your fingers don't lay completely flat on the keyboard, hence why ortho doesn't work for everyone -- it's hard to keep one finger per column or row when the fingers are curved. The particular row curvature we adopted and the distances/angles are meant to perfectly follow finger movement and curvature in such a way that you can rest your wrist.
Finally, as for DVORAK/QWERTY, analizing the impact of different key layouts was the next step in the process, but due to the obvious reasons I couldn't take it further.
Hmm that's very interesting. After reading this, I was playing around with my chair and keyboard, trying out different setups. I tried typing with my elbows at a 90 - 110 degree angle with varying chair heights. I noticed that floating my hands at any chair height where my elbows weren't 1 or 2 inches above my desk put immediate strain on my forearms (forgot the muscles, but posterior ulnar side), probably because of the height of the keyboard. I came to the same conclusion that resting the elbows on the arm rests and keeping the elbows at that right angle makes for better typing ergonomics (and feels better too. I have muscley forearms and resting them on the table for extended periods of time causes some discomfort).
However, such a setup is kinda unusable because of several reasons. First, keeping the keyboard close to you kinda kills your desk space. I'm still a student, and having papers and textbooks in front of my keyboard is the norm. Of course, this wouldn't be applicable for people with jobs where a majority of the work is on the computer, but just a thought. Next, my chair and the table conflict (for the lack of a better term). My table has a support beam thingy at the edge, which disallows my chair from moving further up as my thighs (which are also unfortunately muscley) get trapped. And as a result, the armrests on my chair hit the table before they can be fully set down. This means I have to move my chair backwards, which further exaggerates the first problem.
So with that in mind, I tried to find a comfortable position that is also usable. I ended up my chair near the shortest length, my keyboard far away from me, my elbows at a 150ish degree angle, and my body leaning backward (though not slouching forward). Do you think this posture would solve the problem of the center of mass being too forward or will it eventually end up in more problems in the lumbar region?
Post by: upas on Fri, 19 June 2020, 15:06:22
Nice, thanks for your inputs.
Well, I think you can understand why logos are important. That being said, I must say that this feedback is new to me -- I can't recall people giving this insight into other keyboards that had front-facing logos like the Think 65, the FoxLab Key 65, the TGR 910, or on many other keyboard threads about front facing logos. So maybe our execution was not the best. We'll look into it.
Those specific comparisons aren't quite the same, since the logos on the Think65 and TGR 910 are logos of the board, not of the brand. I don't think many keyboards have their brand's logo on the front of the keyboard. Some of the TGR boards do, the Satisfaction 75 does, and a few others. The Think65 and Key 65 both offered options without the logo, as well. Even brands like Keycult and RAMA, with a lot of recognition and clout, put their logos out of direct line of sight. Also, let's not forget that the IC for the Key 65 had multiple pages dedicated to complaints about the logo, which led to the offering of two different logos, as well as an option without a logo entirely.
Fully agree with this comment. I almost edited mine to include the similar callouts. CannonKeys has associated itself as a store; a vendor. They run group buys for other people and sell cases on the side. I can’t go to TGR.com and get milky Gateron Yellows or a keyset. TGR is the “designer” while the CannonKeys logo is not a designer, it’s CannonKeys keyboard accessories storefront. It surprised me how clean the “cheaper” Brutal series is compared to the “high end” models that have the cannon stamped on the top like it’s a Razer keyboard. The Brutal series has a much cleaner aesthetic than the S75 and D65 without the stores logo in your face. If there was a “Upas” logo that was subtle and not associated with a store then I’d be all in but that’s not the _case_.
I might not agree with your point of view, but thank you for stating your point of view in a civil manner! There seems to be high emotions in this thread and a lot of general negative sentiment without anything constructive, so I really do appreciate that.
I get where you're coming from but I like putting my personal designs under the CannonKeys brand as well. I created CannonKeys to help facilitate running my own designs, primarily, but part of the mission was also to enable others to get their designs out there. I wouldn't say I sell cases on the side - that is a pretty large and important part of what I do. And if that's the perception, well, that's something I need to work on!
For this design, I don't think I'm going to remove the logo, and if that's a dealbreaker, I fully understand!
There's been a lot of feedback about the front of the case, which I think rings true. I think the case looks good as-is, but given everyone's feedback, I think it could probably be better. I'm working on refinements.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 19 June 2020, 15:29:37
This here is an interesting question.
We did play with the idea of a layout that had a huge bottom part which forced the user to basically push it far away from the body, it was one of the early prototypes. And indeed it relieves strain on the wrists, but we did find another problem. After some hours of typing we found that the shoulder muscles that are used to keep the arms up -- deltoid, infraspinatus and trapezius -- are in constant tension because you have to keep your arms "afloat". After some time you will get them tired and invariably lower your arms, which is a double trouble now because, due to the layout, you have to keep the arms away from your body but positioned on the table or chair at the same time, promoting a very bad spine curvature. Not only that, we also found when you keep the arms away from your body you dislocate your center of mass forwards, and depending on the way your chair holds your back, either your bottom back muscles or your abdominal are tensioned to keep you upright. I did feel sore pain in the region of latissimus dorsi and teres major muscles. All of this explains why specialists say that the best position to be in while typing is with your spine straight and very well supported by a good chairs. Your elbows should rest in a ninety to 110 degree angle, and also supported by chair armrests. When we understood this, our layout concept shifted immensely towards forcing that particular position.
The row stagger is another very interesting thing. What the majority of people don't understant is that your fingers don't lay completely flat on the keyboard, hence why ortho doesn't work for everyone -- it's hard to keep one finger per column or row when the fingers are curved. The particular row curvature we adopted and the distances/angles are meant to perfectly follow finger movement and curvature in such a way that you can rest your wrist.
Finally, as for DVORAK/QWERTY, analizing the impact of different key layouts was the next step in the process, but due to the obvious reasons I couldn't take it further.
Hmm that's very interesting. After reading this, I was playing around with my chair and keyboard, trying out different setups. I tried typing with my elbows at a 90 - 110 degree angle with varying chair heights. I noticed that floating my hands at any chair height where my elbows weren't 1 or 2 inches above my desk put immediate strain on my forearms (forgot the muscles, but posterior ulnar side), probably because of the height of the keyboard. I came to the same conclusion that resting the elbows on the arm rests and keeping the elbows at that right angle makes for better typing ergonomics (and feels better too. I have muscley forearms and resting them on the table for extended periods of time causes some discomfort).
However, such a setup is kinda unusable because of several reasons. First, keeping the keyboard close to you kinda kills your desk space. I'm still a student, and having papers and textbooks in front of my keyboard is the norm. Of course, this wouldn't be applicable for people with jobs where a majority of the work is on the computer, but just a thought. Next, my chair and the table conflict (for the lack of a better term). My table has a support beam thingy at the edge, which disallows my chair from moving further up as my thighs (which are also unfortunately muscley) get trapped. And as a result, the armrests on my chair hit the table before they can be fully set down. This means I have to move my chair backwards, which further exaggerates the first problem.
So with that in mind, I tried to find a comfortable position that is also usable. I ended up my chair near the shortest length, my keyboard far away from me, my elbows at a 150ish degree angle, and my body leaning backward (though not slouching forward). Do you think this posture would solve the problem of the center of mass being too forward or will it eventually end up in more problems in the lumbar region?
The most important thing is that your back is straight and well supported so that you don't put strain on the lumbar. If you managed to do that, then the only problem you will have is a strain on the shoulders, but if your arms are at a comfortable place I don't see why that would be a problem. Next, you need to take care of wrists and finger positioning while you type. It's important that your wrist is the least movable possible, which I believe Sagittarius can help with.
Bear in mind I'm not a doctor, so the only sure fire way to know your positioning is the best is supported elbows at 90-100 degrees with straight back!
Post by: duckadence on Fri, 19 June 2020, 15:49:24
The most important thing is that your back is straight and well supported so that you don't put strain on the lumbar. If you managed to do that, then the only problem you will have is a strain on the shoulders, but if your arms are at a comfortable place I don't see why that would be a problem. Next, you need to take care of wrists and finger positioning while you type. It's important that your wrist is the least movable possible, which I believe Sagittarius can help with.
Bear in mind I'm not a doctor, so the only sure fire way to know your positioning is the best is supported elbows at 90-100 degrees with straight backl
Okay, thanks for your input and help! I've always had my own speculations and done some jerryrigged expermients on keyboard and desk ergonomics. I do have some med background (was a nursing major before I switched to engineering) but I'll defer to your research (which honestly trumps the knowledge of general doctors) when it comes to what is the best ergonomically. I know that not all the discussion was exactly related to the keyboard, so thanks for taking time to answer everything! Best of luck!
Post by: Sandy on Fri, 19 June 2020, 23:06:34
Post by: stein3 on Sat, 20 June 2020, 00:13:42
"Let's make this a reality", he said. This single phrase impacted me so much that I imbued it onto the PCB.
This is heartwarming.
Keep it up, guys.
Post by: fabijolo on Sat, 20 June 2020, 00:27:26
Again, great job, especially on the case design :thumb:
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Sat, 20 June 2020, 01:02:44
There are suddenly many boards I’m highly interested in, and only one salary to pay.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: syke on Sat, 20 June 2020, 07:44:30
Post by: vosechu on Sat, 20 June 2020, 11:54:58
That said, I’m super glad you’re iterating on the Alice and improving it dramatically. I’m 200% in, especially knowing that this benefits Toms family; that’s beautiful.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 20 June 2020, 13:01:19
Right hand looks really wonderful, but the left looks like standard horizontal stagger. It’s probably too far down the road already, but shifting the q row to the right and the b row to the left seems like it would be much more comfortable and natural.
That said, I’m super glad you’re iterating on the Alice and improving it dramatically. I’m 200% in, especially knowing that this benefits Toms family; that’s beautiful.
You need to have in mind that our hands don't type the same. Doctors in the rehabilitation field call that assimmetrical behavior; it happens all over the human body (our body is not 100% simmetrical) and, particularly on the typing activity, that's primarily cause by the QWERTY layout. We too had problems figuring out why the algorithm would give us a layout that had different profiles for each hands, but when we videotaped ourselves typing we knew why: the right hand tends to be more mobile than the left one, which is why the coefficientes we used for the right hand were "softer" in the sense that the right cluster was a little more flexible.
For instance, shifting the bottommost row makes it really difficult for you to hit space and B or V while keeping wrists immobile, because if you do that, the majority of the row will be under your palm instead of under your phalanx or metatarsalia areas.
Also thank you for your words. We appreciate them!
Post by: vosechu on Sat, 20 June 2020, 13:04:13
Post by: jakereps on Sat, 20 June 2020, 13:10:11
Right hand looks really wonderful, but the left looks like standard horizontal stagger. It’s probably too far down the road already, but shifting the q row to the right and the b row to the left seems like it would be much more comfortable and natural.
That said, I’m super glad you’re iterating on the Alice and improving it dramatically. I’m 200% in, especially knowing that this benefits Toms family; that’s beautiful.
You need to have in mind that our hands don't type the same. Doctors in the rehabilitation field call that assimmetrical behavior; it happens all over the human body (our body is not 100% simmetrical) and, particularly on the typing activity, that's primarily cause by the QWERTY layout. We too had problems figuring out why the algorithm would give us a layout that had different profiles for each hands, but when we videotaped ourselves typing we knew why: the right hand tends to be more mobile than the left one, which is why the coefficientes we used for the right hand were "softer" in the sense that the right cluster was a little more flexible.
For instance, shifting the bottommost row makes it really difficult for you to hit space and B or V while keeping wrists immobile, because if you do that, the majority of the row will be under your palm instead of under your phalanx or metatarsalia areas.
Also thank you for your words. We appreciate them!
God damn, I love everything about this IC. Hope to try this layout some day!
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 20 June 2020, 13:10:23
Is there an interest check form?
I love the HHKB-like FN key. The aesthetics of the case with the gasket addition are great as well. I would prefer it to be at a sharper angle like the Alice, but this is also a board designed for ergonomics and not aesthetics.
No interest check form as of yet. The reaction to this was huge so we though it was not needed, and since this thread has given us so much valuable feedback, it kind of defeated the purpose of the form.
As for aesthetics, I think that no one would get this if they didn't think it was a pretty keyboard. We are aiming at aesthetics too, of course -- this is a consumer good! -- but indeed the top priority here is the ergonomics.
Post by: anaf on Sat, 20 June 2020, 13:19:14
I am also looking forward to group buy when it does happen. Hoping that you run a discord in the near future to keep us updated.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 20 June 2020, 13:19:15
Right hand looks really wonderful, but the left looks like standard horizontal stagger. It’s probably too far down the road already, but shifting the q row to the right and the b row to the left seems like it would be much more comfortable and natural.
That said, I’m super glad you’re iterating on the Alice and improving it dramatically. I’m 200% in, especially knowing that this benefits Toms family; that’s beautiful.
You need to have in mind that our hands don't type the same. Doctors in the rehabilitation field call that assimmetrical behavior; it happens all over the human body (our body is not 100% simmetrical) and, particularly on the typing activity, that's primarily cause by the QWERTY layout. We too had problems figuring out why the algorithm would give us a layout that had different profiles for each hands, but when we videotaped ourselves typing we knew why: the right hand tends to be more mobile than the left one, which is why the coefficientes we used for the right hand were "softer" in the sense that the right cluster was a little more flexible.
For instance, shifting the bottommost row makes it really difficult for you to hit space and B or V while keeping wrists immobile, because if you do that, the majority of the row will be under your palm instead of under your phalanx or metatarsalia areas.
Also thank you for your words. We appreciate them!
God damn, I love everything about this IC. Hope to try this layout some day!
No need to wait until "some day". You can try it out now!
Update 1: added A4 and US Letter layout test sheets so you guys can test the layout out!
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 20 June 2020, 13:24:00
Im sorry for your loss.
I am also looking forward to group buy when it does happen. Hoping that you run a discord in the near future to keep us updated.
There is a Sagittarius channel on the CannonKeys discord server: https://discord.gg/zadnctX
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 20 June 2020, 13:29:56
My two cents’ worth, and I understand it’s my personal opinion (sorry for the weighty tome):This looks great.
Unpopular opinion time: keep logos on the back / bottom / under a paper bag where no one will see them again. Cannon Keys doesn’t have a nice logo lol. Same goes for any brand that wants to impose itself on the front of a keyboard you have to look at every day.
This. I understand you're proud of your work. You make nice stuff. I want to buy your nice stuff. Don't doodle on your nice stuff...
I'm looking at you MD2 deskmats!
More on topic: I really dig this direction and have been anticipating the IC since I first read about the layout. I hope you can add a little bit more elegance and finesse this board into something truly amazing.
Nice, thanks for your inputs.
Well, I think you can understand why logos are important. That being said, I must say that this feedback is new to me -- I can't recall people giving this insight into other keyboards that had front-facing logos like the Think 65, the FoxLab Key 65, the Klippe, the TGR 910, or on many other keyboard threads about front facing logos. So maybe our execution was not the best.
I like the logo on the Klippe T r4, which will be my first build.
I was put off a bit by the text on the Space65 Cybervoyager, but I, ahem, _think_ the Think6.5 r2 branding is OK enough. So much so that especially the lightbulb logo is a plus, not a minus.
I also liked the plain text of the Prophet from Cable Car Designs.
So I guess you could summarise my preferences as
- plain text engraved or
- a simple discreet logo
... works well, and may even add to the aesthetic rather than detract from it.
To be honest, the logo won’t put me off buying one of these if I have the money. Like I said, I’m interested in the ergo approach you took. If it feels like it fits my hands, anything like the Keyboardio or Kinesis Advantage does, then great.
If it improves on that (challenge accepted..?), then SCORE!
The Cannonkeys logo is probably not the most awesome ever, but it ain’t that bad. It won’t make me _not_ buy this great design. Unless you make it huge and garishly neon pink.
[EDIT:ignore!] Any chance you can publish your finger models and how you arrived at that design? Apologies, I haven’t yet checked your references in detail.
[ADDED:] I read through your description again and spotted something I missed earlier, that your measurements are closed and the subject of a paper currently being written. I hope we can one day see that!]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The finger modelling we used is developed on the references! You can check those out
Post by: are2dcrz on Sat, 20 June 2020, 14:32:22
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 20 June 2020, 16:11:20
This is end game material for me. Hopefully the quantity will be enough for me to grab one.
Endittarius
Post by: Zeelobby on Sat, 20 June 2020, 16:15:43
Oh man. Gotta change the name now!This is end game material for me. Hopefully the quantity will be enough for me to grab one.
Endittarius
Post by: gnho on Sat, 20 June 2020, 17:09:54
Second, as a HHKB layout user, I am a bit concerned that the Fn key is too far away from the arrows in the second layer. I wonder whether it's possible to reduce the size of the right shift to 2u.
Third, is there a reason people place home/end/page up/down on the left-hand side? Wouldn't right-hand side makes more sense consider our right hand is more mobile?
Post by: alphabirth on Sat, 20 June 2020, 18:36:50
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 20 June 2020, 19:09:16
I'll be honest, I haven't read through the whole report yet (it's late here, and I'm already up later than I should be looking at keebs), but at first glance it's a very interesting idea! I love to see innovation happening, and this is totally moving things in a new direction. My feedback is that I am really a sucker for dedicated arrow keys, so I'd probably wait until somebody does a remix, just like what happened with Alice. And also, that the asymmetry with the addition function keys on the left but not the right seems a little weird. Good luck with IC, and keep up the awesome work!
Nice! Thanks for the feedback!
I believe you should see the layout figure; Sagittarius has a dedicated arrows layout option!
EDIT: this one
(https://imgur.com/kwWbrxh.png)
Post by: krautcat on Sat, 20 June 2020, 22:36:13
Well, left part of keyboard is something horrible, right part is so-so, maybe even ok.
Hope we will see in the future such designs with columnar stagger.
You want a reply with that or...?
Quite a bit. I get the layout of right part of keyboard, it's quite X-Bow-esque. I like that it adapts to hands not via staggering of columns but using the ray-like placing of columns. That's really cool!
Left part seems to me doomed because if I would touch type on it, I suppose my hand will make strange moves. Columns on right part and left part are non-symmetrical. So moving patterns of right and left hand will be different. And even angels between wrist and elbow. That is why I don't get Alice layout (except aesthetics) and that's why I don't get yours layout. I would call it Alice++ but for me this layout still worse than most of split keyboards with columnar stagger. Except Ergodox, of course.
Also I really don't like thumbcluster. It is so underloaded. Why only four keys? Why did you use long keys? Even on the peripheral modifiers you still use long keys, even "Fn" key near the right "Shift". I don't get it. In my opinion. modifiers on peripheral should not be splitted because of issues with reach via pinky finger. I know long keys are used with compatibility with base keycaps' sets in mind but in terms ergonomic I don't think it is the best soution. But okay, I find it attractive and aesthetic within non-splitted keyboards.
I really would like to rework thumbcluster. You mentioned about issues with reach the modifiers, and I totally agree with it. But give the user more keys on thumbcluster. User can adapt to new layout or just ignore surplus keys if he didn't find them useful. But adding more keys to the thumbcluster will definitely open new opportunities. For example, I have on within two layers of my Iris and Corne keyboards "Space", "Enter", "Escape", "Left Shift", "Right Shift", "Ctrl" and "Alt" keycodes. And that's not only my setup, I see lots of such keymaps.
I see only two keys on each half as maximum but I don't think placement is really thumb-friendly. I would make three 1U keys on each side and placed them more closely to the center of the symmetry.
But tbh I really appreciate your efforts and really want to see this project on the GB stage. I am not among the target auditory of this board but your work and efforts shouldn't have gone without implementation in the hardware.
He’s also explained why he thinks straight columns that are staggered are not the best solution. Since you didn’t mention that, you probably didn’t bother to read it.
He didn't say anything about boards columnar staggering like Corne. He mentioned only ortholinear keyboards like Preonic and Planck. So please, don't accuse me. I agree with his statement regard ortholinear keyboards.
You’re not even riling people up, if that’s what you were aiming for. You just come across as shallow compared to the OP, and probably just aiming to troll.
I was ironic when had said about keyboards with columnar staggering, but anyway I was serious with my words brought up here.
Update.
I read that another person wondered why left part has almost classical row staggering. And then I saw reply where the difference was explained but I still think that difference between movement patters of each hand is not so huge that left part should have classical staggering and right part should tend to columnar or even ray staggering. I am heavily satisfied with symmetrical split keyboards with columnar stagger. I don't find drastically differences between my hands that it would required Sagittarius' approach within layout. Yes, I am here only with my experience without any statistical datum.
Post by: bthezebra on Sun, 21 June 2020, 02:52:20
I can't imagine how you must feel about Tom but I am sure they are happy that you are carrying on the work you started together.
Best.
Post by: afluffybubble on Sun, 21 June 2020, 08:31:02
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sun, 21 June 2020, 11:49:56
Glad you like it :D Please check this answer:
Right hand looks really wonderful, but the left looks like standard horizontal stagger. It’s probably too far down the road already, but shifting the q row to the right and the b row to the left seems like it would be much more comfortable and natural.
That said, I’m super glad you’re iterating on the Alice and improving it dramatically. I’m 200% in, especially knowing that this benefits Toms family; that’s beautiful.
You need to have in mind that our hands don't type the same. Doctors in the rehabilitation field call that assimmetrical behavior; it happens all over the human body (our body is not 100% simmetrical) and, particularly on the typing activity, that's primarily cause by the QWERTY layout. We too had problems figuring out why the algorithm would give us a layout that had different profiles for each hands, but when we videotaped ourselves typing we knew why: the right hand tends to be more mobile than the left one, which is why the coefficientes we used for the right hand were "softer" in the sense that the right cluster was a little more flexible.
For instance, shifting the bottommost row makes it really difficult for you to hit space and B or V while keeping wrists immobile, because if you do that, the majority of the row will be under your palm instead of under your phalanx or metatarsalia areas.
Also thank you for your words. We appreciate them!
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Sun, 21 June 2020, 21:15:35
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: kimchijody on Sun, 21 June 2020, 21:43:28
Post by: alphabirth on Mon, 22 June 2020, 12:02:53
I'll be honest, I haven't read through the whole report yet (it's late here, and I'm already up later than I should be looking at keebs), but at first glance it's a very interesting idea! I love to see innovation happening, and this is totally moving things in a new direction. My feedback is that I am really a sucker for dedicated arrow keys, so I'd probably wait until somebody does a remix, just like what happened with Alice. And also, that the asymmetry with the addition function keys on the left but not the right seems a little weird. Good luck with IC, and keep up the awesome work!
Nice! Thanks for the feedback!
I believe you should see the layout figure; Sagittarius has a dedicated arrows layout option!
EDIT: this oneShow Image(https://imgur.com/kwWbrxh.png)
Thanks for spoon-feeding me the info! 😅 I actually took time to read the full post today. First thing--I'm truly sorry for the loss of Tom... It's a great thing you're doing making this board a part of his legacy. I didn't quite grok that the alternative layout option was showing that the two bottom rows could be swapped for arrow keys--and now I feel even sillier knowing that the arrows are part of the Sagittarius name!
I was also wondering about the differences in the stagger between right and left, but I see you've answered that. I suppose that this actually makes the board right-handed? (I'm a righty, so that's fine for me, but I just wanted to check).
It's also too bad that the last thing to be open-sourced will be the optimization algorithm, as that is the part that interests me the most! :D
Post by: Gondolindrim on Mon, 22 June 2020, 12:49:58
Apologies if this is answered elsewhere. Did you consider tenting? And will there be a wrist rest?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Wrist rest is being considered. As for tenting, we did consider it at some point, but left the idea eventually because the modelling with tenting was too complicated.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Mon, 22 June 2020, 12:58:29
I'll be honest, I haven't read through the whole report yet (it's late here, and I'm already up later than I should be looking at keebs), but at first glance it's a very interesting idea! I love to see innovation happening, and this is totally moving things in a new direction. My feedback is that I am really a sucker for dedicated arrow keys, so I'd probably wait until somebody does a remix, just like what happened with Alice. And also, that the asymmetry with the addition function keys on the left but not the right seems a little weird. Good luck with IC, and keep up the awesome work!
Nice! Thanks for the feedback!
I believe you should see the layout figure; Sagittarius has a dedicated arrows layout option!
EDIT: this oneShow Image(https://imgur.com/kwWbrxh.png)
Thanks for spoon-feeding me the info! I actually took time to read the full post today. First thing--I'm truly sorry for the loss of Tom... It's a great thing you're doing making this board a part of his legacy. I didn't quite grok that the alternative layout option was showing that the two bottom rows could be swapped for arrow keys--and now I feel even sillier knowing that the arrows are part of the Sagittarius name!
I was also wondering about the differences in the stagger between right and left, but I see you've answered that. I suppose that this actually makes the board right-handed? (I'm a righty, so that's fine for me, but I just wanted to check).
It's also too bad that the last thing to be open-sourced will be the optimization algorithm, as that is the part that interests me the most! :D
This is an interesting question too: is Sagittarius left or right handed?
The optimization algorithm did take into accound a "left-handed or right-handed" parameter. We did take samples and measurements from a wide array of people, so we did have data from both orientations. The problem is that the majority of people (that's statistical, not personal opinion) are right-handed, so we did eventually ask the questions if our data was biased towards right-handed (which it clearly was). Since I was the data scientist I did some experimentation of rolling the algorithm only with left-handed data or even 50/50.
The results were very interesting. What it did show us is that the "left-handed oriented" layout was VERY harmful to right-handed people, that is, the right handed-oriented coordination tends to be more inflexible to orientation changes, whereas the "right-handed-biased" layout we had was not so bad to left-handed people.
Upon concluding this, we took is to Tom's advisor -- big rehabilitation surgeon and researcher -- and he told us that the result is completely understandable since everything in our world tends to be designed/aimed at righties because the big majority is right-handed, so the righties don't have to adapt. The lefties, on the other hand, are more tolerant towards right-handed appliances because they have to train their physiology -- muscles and muscular memory -- to use right-oriented appliances.
Our ultimate decision was to keep the layout with the whole of the data. Upon running the optimization results and the in locu testing -- we did het a dozen people to use the layout -- the left-handed that used the layout told us they were comfortable using the layout as well.
In any case, please print the layout test sheet and test it for yourself!
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Mon, 22 June 2020, 13:26:46
Apologies if this is answered elsewhere. Did you consider tenting? And will there be a wrist rest?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Wrist rest is being considered. As for tenting, we did consider it at some point, but left the idea eventually because the modelling with tenting was too complicated.
Thanks.
Post by: krautcat on Mon, 22 June 2020, 20:57:53
The initiative brought by Gondolindrim is very important for our community. The more ergonomic keyboards we have, the better consequences will be there and the more impact on future designs such experiments will have.
I am sorry I was too aggressive and unfriendly with my feedback.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Mon, 22 June 2020, 22:21:10
Seems my questions left unanswered so I honestly want to wish good luck with IC and hopefully smooth GB as well.
The initiative brought by Gondolindrim is very important for our community. The more ergonomic keyboards we have, the better consequences will be there and the more impact on future designs such experiments will have.
I am sorry I was too aggressive and unfriendly with my feedback.
I hope you understand that your first response wasn't even a feedback. I don't know what you meant with it, but to me it resonated as a hurtful attempt to let me down somehow and responding to anything after it was simply an opening for myself to take part in my own abuse. If you were ironic or joking I have no idea as words do not express tone, but to whoever read it (you commend was so impactful that I did ask around what people though about your particular comment) they thought it was a kind of troll-ish diss to the keyboard.
But since you seem to care about what I think and your second response was insightful, let's do this.
First, about the layout being assymmetrical. Somewhere up I did a very in-depth response as to why that is, the TLDR meaning that when typing our hands simply don't move in the same way. The muscular memory of our hands is assymetrical. For more clarification please read above.
For the "overloaded" thumbcluster: the "right" way to do ergo is with curved keycaps. That's what the Microsoft ergo does, that's what the Logitech ergo does. You might agree with me that I can't conceive a layout with curved keycaps in this community because there are no projects to make such keycaps. Also as said in the OP, the true-erogonomics had to be adapted so that the layout was feasible with a base kit. The impact on the optimization is not big.
For people that like modding the layouts I added the two-key options to the thumbs. These sould let you play with layers. This is also done in most ergo splits.
And I will take some liberty to talk about this:
Quote
I read that another person wondered why left part has almost classical row staggering. And then I saw reply where the difference was explained but I still think that difference between movement patters of each hand is not so huge that left part should have classical staggering and right part should tend to columnar or even ray staggering. I am heavily satisfied with symmetrical split keyboards with columnar stagger. I don't find drastically differences between my hands that it would required Sagittarius' approach within layout. Yes, I am here only with my experience without any statistical datum.
Understand that, ultimately, the ideal ergonomics are adjusted individually. This is why recovery medicine is such an open-field open to so many speculations and myths. Let me give you a metaphor. On the one hand you have a post-doc MD that has studied 20+ years only so that he could give you a flu medicine or whatever. On the other, you have your grandma saying doctors don't know bollocks and proceeding to give you her lemon-honey-aloe vera tea which miraculously works better than the medicine you were prescribed.
In this spirit, if a symmetrical layout works for you I think it's totally legitimate for you to say that, but I also think you can't back up the information "Sagittarius doesn't work because it doesn't work for me". Like the doctor and his medicine, I have several hundred tests of recovery patients and a few dozen of them actually tried some iterations of the layout and gave us feedback on where their hands/arms/joints felt the most affected, so we could fine tune the results and optimization.
Among the subjects of the data we have were right-handed people, left-handed people, tall people, short people, muscular people, skinny people; as the project's data scientist, I have to give results based on the data which unvariably makes me work with statistics and stochastic processes so that all of these groups are covered in a statistical way with a certain degree of statistical certainty. What I can guarantee is that Sagittarius will bring more comfort and less stress on hands/arms/joints/muscles than your common ANSI stagger layout. As such I have tried to respond the feedbacks and questionings in this post with arguments and data back-up, describing phenomenons and results, but at the same time I can't guarantee if the layout will make an individual's hands so relaxed you will ditch all your keyboards for Sagittarius; hence why the layout test sheets.
I **** you not, we even ran "mini-placebo" tests to make sure this layout works -- I gave five friends random split layouts and told them this was our new layout in hopes that they'd just say it's indeed better. And they didn't. This layout passed that test even. Of course a true placebo tests need hundreds of patients and LOTS of data treatment, but you get the idea.
In the same metaphor, your granny's tea is like your symmetrical layout right now. It works for you, it has worked wonderfully so why the heck would you buy a several-hundred dollar keyboard that has this overly-engineered layout that needs a 2500+ word essay to be presented and described? I think that it's totally legitimate you say "well, it's not for me". And I'm okay with that. I'm very conscious Sagittarius is not meant to be the next Alice nor am I trying to be the next yutski.
In the end, Sagittarius is not about ergonomics, it's about bringing innovation to this community to keep it fresh and interesting, it's about testing how far we can go with a design and how much heart and soul we put into this. So I don't expect you to like Sagittarius, I expect you to respect it for what it is -- which according to this last comment you seem to do, so my deepest thanks for this.
Post by: NathanAlphaMan on Mon, 22 June 2020, 22:54:18
Seems my questions left unanswered so I honestly want to wish good luck with IC and hopefully smooth GB as well.
The initiative brought by Gondolindrim is very important for our community. The more ergonomic keyboards we have, the better consequences will be there and the more impact on future designs such experiments will have.
I am sorry I was too aggressive and unfriendly with my feedback.
I hope you understand that your first response wasn't even a feedback. I don't know what you meant with it, but to me it resonated as a hurtful attempt to let me down somehow and responding to anything after it was simply an opening for myself to take part in my own abuse. If you were ironic or joking I have no idea as words do not express tone, but to whoever read it (you commend was so impactful that I did ask around what people though about your particular comment) they thought it was a kind of troll-ish diss to the keyboard.
But since you seem to care about what I think and your second response was insightful, let's do this.
First, about the layout being assymmetrical. Somewhere up I did a very in-depth response as to why that is, the TLDR meaning that when typing our hands simply don't move in the same way. The muscular memory of our hands is assymetrical. For more clarification please read above.
For the "overloaded" thumbcluster: the "right" way to do ergo is with curved keycaps. That's what the Microsoft ergo does, that's what the Logitech ergo does. You might agree with me that I can't conceive a layout with curved keycaps in this community because there are no projects to make such keycaps. Also as said in the OP, the true-erogonomics had to be adapted so that the layout was feasible with a base kit. The impact on the optimization is not big.
For people that like modding the layouts I added the two-key options to the thumbs. These sould let you play with layers. This is also done in most ergo splits.
And I will take some liberty to talk about this:QuoteI read that another person wondered why left part has almost classical row staggering. And then I saw reply where the difference was explained but I still think that difference between movement patters of each hand is not so huge that left part should have classical staggering and right part should tend to columnar or even ray staggering. I am heavily satisfied with symmetrical split keyboards with columnar stagger. I don't find drastically differences between my hands that it would required Sagittarius' approach within layout. Yes, I am here only with my experience without any statistical datum.
Understand that, ultimately, the ideal ergonomics are adjusted individually. This is why recovery medicine is such an open-field open to so many speculations and myths. Let me give you a metaphor. On the one hand you have a post-doc MD that has studied 20+ years only so that he could give you a flu medicine or whatever. On the other, you have your grandma saying doctors don't know bollocks and proceeding to give you her lemon-honey-aloe vera tea which miraculously works better than the medicine you were prescribed.
In this spirit, if a symmetrical layout works for you I think it's totally legitimate for you to say that, but I also think you can't back up the information "Sagittarius doesn't work because it doesn't work for me". Like the doctor and his medicine, I have several hundred tests of recovery patients and a few dozen of them actually tried some iterations of the layout and gave us feedback on where their hands/arms/joints felt the most affected, so we could fine tune the results and optimization.
Among the subjects of the data we have were right-handed people, left-handed people, tall people, short people, muscular people, skinny people; as the project's data scientist, I have to give results based on the data which unvariably makes me work with statistics and stochastic processes so that all of these groups are covered in a statistical way with a certain degree of statistical certainty. What I can guarantee is that Sagittarius will bring more comfort and less stress on hands/arms/joints/muscles than your common ANSI stagger layout. As such I have tried to respond the feedbacks and questionings in this post with arguments and data back-up, describing phenomenons and results, but at the same time I can't guarantee if the layout will make an individual's hands so relaxed you will ditch all your keyboards for Sagittarius; hence why the layout test sheets.
I **** you not, we even ran "mini-placebo" tests to make sure this layout works -- I gave five frients a random split layout and told them this was our new layout in hopes that they'd just say it's indeed better. And they didn't. This layout passed that test even. Of course a true placebo tests need hundreds of patients and LOTS of data treatment, but you get the idea.
In the same metaphor, your granny's tea is like your symmetrical layout right now. It works for you, it has worked wonderfully so why the heck would you buy a several-hundred dollar keyboard that has this overly-engineered layout that needs a 2500+ word essay to be presented and described? I think that it's totally legitimate you say "well, it's not for me". And I'm okay with that. I'm very conscious Sagittarius is not meant to be the next Alice nor am I trying to be the next yutski.
In the end, Sagittarius is not about ergonomics, it's about bringing innovation to this community to keep it fresh and interesting, it's about testing how far we can go with a design and how much heart and soul we put into this. So I don't expect you to like Sagittarius, I expect you to respect it for what it is -- which according to this last comment you seem to do, so my deepest thanks for this.
Pack it up boys, we're done here. This is one of, if not the best-written post on this site. I cannot wait to get this board and try it for myself, huge congratulations to Gondo, Tom, and Upas for making this happen.
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Mon, 22 June 2020, 23:50:26
Seems my questions left unanswered so I honestly want to wish good luck with IC and hopefully smooth GB as well.Hi mate, thanks for giving more detail. Your second post had much more detail, which makes it more constructive. You have put more thought into ergo than was apparent in your first post, probably more than I have, and you have some deeply held opinions, which are OK.
The initiative brought by Gondolindrim is very important for our community. The more ergonomic keyboards we have, the better consequences will be there and the more impact on future designs such experiments will have.
I am sorry I was too aggressive and unfriendly with my feedback.
Skepticism for things like the asymmetric layout, I can understand that. I guess it could trigger my OCD like the column weirdness at the top of a 75% keyboard. Or like a normal row stagger layout does since I watched the video from the designer of the Dactyl.
But here I can tell myself there’s a good enough purpose for it. Gondolindrim’s argument makes enough sense that I want to try this.
Ever since I had inflammation in the tendons on top of my hands at the wrists, making coding hell for 3 weeks, I was interested in ergo. I have a Kinesis Advantage 2, and Ergodox and a Keyboardio Model 01. The Keyboardio is my current endgame for doing work, and somebody will one day have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.
This is a new avenue of enquiry.
The fact that its layout isn’t as unconventional as a Keyboardio makes me think it might be more versatile than just a daily driver for touch-typing - it might be more suitable for gaming. I’m too lazy to make gaming-centric layouts in Chrysalis or Via, my current solution is just plonking my Corsair K63 on my desk if I want to play games.
And I like being able to stick standard caps sets on it, so that’s an excellent design compromise.
I fully agree this is important. I’d rather spend my money on this than the next flashy 65% board for gaming (which I am still drooling over).
I hope I can. (No pressure Upas, no pressure bank account.)
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Post by: hcb2003 on Tue, 23 June 2020, 07:03:48
Post by: TheMegaSean on Tue, 23 June 2020, 11:53:31
My only comments on the design:
- The right side also needs a B. I took a poll (myself included) with about 9-10 friends. All said the same 😅
- The bottom center section, I believe you could round it off just a tad. Currently, it looks like a slightly unused big space. I think adding the B and rounding those edges would be more visually pleasing.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Tue, 23 June 2020, 12:34:36
My condolences about Tom.
My only comments on the design:
- The right side also needs a B. I took a poll (myself included) with about 9-10 friends. All said the same 😅
- The bottom center section, I believe you could round it off just a tad. Currently, it looks like a slightly unused big space. I think adding the B and rounding those edges would be more visually pleasing.
Please see this answer:
I would agree on right side B. I regularly use my right hand for B. I dont really know either right side B is the correct typing method or not. But for practicality at least for anyone who type similar to me, addition of B to the right side would be helpful.I’d be all in if there were a right side B.
I hope this project is a screaming success.
So sorry to hear about Tom. All the best to his family.
There are two problems with right side B.
The first one being of course that you need two B keys and end up having to take one of those extra keyset kits. The second one being that, ultimately, the idea between two angled alpha clusters is to force you touch type. Now this ramificates into two more issues: the first being that if you have two keys for the same character it can mess up your muscular memory, and the second being that the B key is meant to be hit with the left hand on touch typing. We can consider adding an extra B key, but that can interfere with the plans we have for that huge middle space between the alpha clusters (yes, we do have something special intended there).
Post by: gnho on Tue, 23 June 2020, 15:21:06
Post by: MeloDet on Tue, 23 June 2020, 15:34:02
I am really confused about this IC. Is there any feedback actually useful? I'm seeing a lot of suggestions and why these suggestions are bad. Maybe they're bad, who knows? But if this community, or the people who are interested in this board, are not able to provide useful suggestion, what's the point of all these?
I mean given the amount of work and experimentation etc. that went into the designing the layout, it is understandable that basically any suggested change to the layout is going to have to meet a certain threshold of merit before the suggestion is considered. Suggestions like "I would prefer a second B" are valid but not particularly useful when Gondo has already explained why a second B won't be included. Further they have already stated that the feedback regarding the case design is being taken into account. So its more a matter of what ones suggestions are. Do the suggestions attempt to change a fundamental part of the layout design? Then they probably won't result in a change. If they are concerned with something less central to the project (like the case design) then they are more likely to result in change.
Post by: gnho on Tue, 23 June 2020, 15:50:17
Yeah and I'm totally fine with that. Maybe just from this point make clear that the layout is not negotiable. Other feedbacks are welcome.I am really confused about this IC. Is there any feedback actually useful? I'm seeing a lot of suggestions and why these suggestions are bad. Maybe they're bad, who knows? But if this community, or the people who are interested in this board, are not able to provide useful suggestion, what's the point of all these?
I mean given the amount of work and experimentation etc. that went into the designing the layout, it is understandable that basically any suggested change to the layout is going to have to meet a certain threshold of merit before the suggestion is considered. Suggestions like "I would prefer a second B" are valid but not particularly useful when Gondo has already explained why a second B won't be included. Further they have already stated that the feedback regarding the case design is being taken into account. So its more a matter of what ones suggestions are. Do the suggestions attempt to change a fundamental part of the layout design? Then they probably won't result in a change. If they are concerned with something less central to the project (like the case design) then they are more likely to result in change.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Post by: deepmail on Tue, 23 June 2020, 17:13:18
Post by: stein3 on Tue, 23 June 2020, 19:07:43
There are two problems with right side B.
The first one being of course that you need two B keys and end up having to take one of those extra keyset kits. The second one being that, ultimately, the idea between two angled alpha clusters is to force you touch type. Now this ramificates into two more issues: the first being that if you have two keys for the same character it can mess up your muscular memory, and the second being that the B key is meant to be hit with the left hand on touch typing. We can consider adding an extra B key, but that can interfere with the plans we have for that huge middle space between the alpha clusters (yes, we do have something special intended there).
Just from my personal experience, I touch type but have developed the muscle memory in both hands to use the b key (and y key). The hand I use depends on the previous and next keypresses.
Mostly I use the Y key with my right hand, and the B key with my left hand, but not always (unless I'm typing on a split with only one key).
That's not to say that I wouldn't use this keyboard and de-train old habits, just sharing where I am coming from.
I am curious why the extra keys would "mess up your muscle memory." If that's not already part of your typing style, would you even press that key? I think of it being included for people who already have the "incorrect" muscle memory so that those people don't need to retrain themselves. And for those who do not need the second B, it can serve as a layer switch button or other modifier.
I feel like most base sets come with extra 1u R4 keys even though they might not have the B legend, but at the very least I nearly always see them included in spacebars kits (at least for GMK sets), which people are going to want for this anyway, right?
The one reason I would vote against having the second B is if it affects the layout of any other key, but it looks like there's room to add it as-is.
Individual users can decide if that B is worth the extra index finger stretch or whether its better to force the left B and retrain their brain. Best of all, this can change over time, so users can start out using both Bs and work their way towards only using the left B.
Sorry to keep badgering on this point, I am just trying to understand the negatives to it when it appears to me that it won't affect anything else on the board.
Post by: Zeelobby on Tue, 23 June 2020, 19:18:23
Yeah and I'm totally fine with that. Maybe just from this point make clear that the layout is not negotiable. Other feedbacks are welcome.I am really confused about this IC. Is there any feedback actually useful? I'm seeing a lot of suggestions and why these suggestions are bad. Maybe they're bad, who knows? But if this community, or the people who are interested in this board, are not able to provide useful suggestion, what's the point of all these?
I mean given the amount of work and experimentation etc. that went into the designing the layout, it is understandable that basically any suggested change to the layout is going to have to meet a certain threshold of merit before the suggestion is considered. Suggestions like "I would prefer a second B" are valid but not particularly useful when Gondo has already explained why a second B won't be included. Further they have already stated that the feedback regarding the case design is being taken into account. So its more a matter of what ones suggestions are. Do the suggestions attempt to change a fundamental part of the layout design? Then they probably won't result in a change. If they are concerned with something less central to the project (like the case design) then they are more likely to result in change.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
I mean I think anything is still open to discussion. As said in the previous reply, you just gotta come with compelling scientific research in this case. I mean I doubt anyone has any but I'd definitely welcome it as someone sitting on the sidelines.
Its just insufficient to come with a request for any personal preference as far as layout goes. If the layout is missing something a person needs, the board is likely a pass for them. But the board layout was generated with collected input from many individuals and represents an optimized result of that sample set. It's not really a board made for one specific group or individual, but optimized for an average human's capabilities.
Now I could see some layout or design commentary pertaining to case shape/style or mod keys outside the core alphas and mods.
Post by: gnho on Tue, 23 June 2020, 19:46:48
My priors are:
1. There are clusters of typing patterns.
2. For each cluster, there may be an optimal layout.
Now, I'm not sure what sample the algorithm used to generate this layout. What I am seeing here is that the sample may not include many people cared enough to give feedback in this thread. This may or may not be a problem. There could be many people who think this is perfect and don't bother to say anything. It could also be the case that people will learn how great this design is once it's in the market. I honestly don't know. What I worry is that the type of people that were used to train the algorithm may not necessarily be the type of people who are willing to try alternative layouts, which is the majority of the people I know. Even for a devoted community like this one, most people still stick with standard layouts instead of more ergonomic ones. So, I doubt that there's any scientific study having a big sample of mechanical keyboard hobbyists.
At the end of the day, I'm not putting any money in creating the board and am still considering purchase one. I'm just not sure if I should still follow this thread if the discussion will just be about the case. Don't we have enough discussion about cases?
Post by: vurtomatic on Tue, 23 June 2020, 20:26:54
We can consider adding an extra B key, but that can interfere with the plans we have for that huge middle space between the alpha clusters (yes, we do have something special intended there).
1) Nobody seems to be paying that last sentence any attention. Maybe when they reveal what's happening there, it'll calm the B requests.
2) That said, I do find it somewhat ironic that a purported optimized ergonomic layout is forcing people to type its way over a B key.
3) Gondolindrim I applaud your patience!
Post by: TheMegaSean on Tue, 23 June 2020, 23:58:29
There are two problems with right side B.
The first one being of course that you need two B keys and end up having to take one of those extra keyset kits. The second one being that, ultimately, the idea between two angled alpha clusters is to force you touch type. Now this ramificates into two more issues: the first being that if you have two keys for the same character it can mess up your muscular memory, and the second being that the B key is meant to be hit with the left hand on touch typing. We can consider adding an extra B key, but that can interfere with the plans we have for that huge middle space between the alpha clusters (yes, we do have something special intended there).
Just from my personal experience, I touch type but have developed the muscle memory in both hands to use the b key (and y key). The hand I use depends on the previous and next keypresses.
.....
I am curious why the extra keys would "mess up your muscle memory." If that's not already part of your typing style, would you even press that key? I think of it being included for people who already have the "incorrect" muscle memory so that those people don't need to retrain themselves. And for those who do not need the second B, it can serve as a layer switch button or other modifier.
Sorry to continue this entire 2 B issue, but I feel the need to echo the above quote and that the forefinger that presses B entirely depends on which word came before and comes after. Even typing this previous sentence, for me it was all right forefinger :)) After doing some self-analysis, I use right forefinger 90% of the time. I just tried a 5min typing test and only used my right forefinger. I failed miserably :)) hahaha One could just set which B to be the primary and have the other as a macro. That would actually be fabulous!
I see that you've made it clear though that the layout is pretty much set though. I just wanted to chime in to give my experience.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Wed, 24 June 2020, 00:03:53
Yeah and I'm totally fine with that. Maybe just from this point make clear that the layout is not negotiable. Other feedbacks are welcome.I am really confused about this IC. Is there any feedback actually useful? I'm seeing a lot of suggestions and why these suggestions are bad. Maybe they're bad, who knows? But if this community, or the people who are interested in this board, are not able to provide useful suggestion, what's the point of all these?
I mean given the amount of work and experimentation etc. that went into the designing the layout, it is understandable that basically any suggested change to the layout is going to have to meet a certain threshold of merit before the suggestion is considered. Suggestions like "I would prefer a second B" are valid but not particularly useful when Gondo has already explained why a second B won't be included. Further they have already stated that the feedback regarding the case design is being taken into account. So its more a matter of what ones suggestions are. Do the suggestions attempt to change a fundamental part of the layout design? Then they probably won't result in a change. If they are concerned with something less central to the project (like the case design) then they are more likely to result in change.
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
At the end of the day, I'm not putting any money in creating the board and am still considering purchase one. I'm just not sure if I should still follow this thread if the discussion will just be about the case. Don't we have enough discussion about cases?
The layout is absolutely not impervious to feedback here. But the feedback so far has been for a second B or because the column/row stagger is bad, and the arguments are "because I think it will be better" and "I use it other way and it works for me". I'm not saying that these allegations are not legitimate -- lest see my reply to kraukat:
Seems my questions left unanswered so I honestly want to wish good luck with IC and hopefully smooth GB as well.
The initiative brought by Gondolindrim is very important for our community. The more ergonomic keyboards we have, the better consequences will be there and the more impact on future designs such experiments will have.
I am sorry I was too aggressive and unfriendly with my feedback.
(...)
In the same metaphor, your granny's tea is like your symmetrical layout right now. It works for you, it has worked wonderfully so why the heck would you buy a several-hundred dollar keyboard that has this overly-engineered layout that needs a 2500+ word essay to be presented and described? I think that it's totally legitimate you say "well, it's not for me". And I'm okay with that. I'm very conscious Sagittarius is not meant to be the next Alice nor am I trying to be the next yutski.
(...)
The problem with these arguments is that they are not good reasons to change the layout when I have solid proven foundation that the suggestions are not good ideas for a layuout aimed not at individual comfort, but results for a certain public.
I respect the feedback that is given here, and I am grateful to those ones that take the time to read my long-ass replies and posts. So I think I respect them enough to give said long-ass replies and posts showing exactly why and how I think this or that suggestion is a bad idea. That way no feedback foes unquestioned or unfounded. I am trying to be transparent.
Notwithstanding, all of the suggestions were already tested and considered at some point in the design and I already chose not to do them even before the IC due to various reasons. The alternatives we considered include, but are not limited to:
- Symmetrical layout
- Two Bs
- Different column and row staggers in the form of the splits and ergos we have today
- Different key grid (use something larger than 19.05mm)
- Make the clusters closer or make them farther
- Make a different (smaller or bigger) thumb cluster
- Using a 6.25U / 7U spacebar below the clusters
- Doing a stepped layout where the keys are in different heights
- Using a fixed angle like the alice and the FLX Virgo
- Having more layer modifier keys, specially done so that each hand has at least two or three possibilities
- Using encoders between the clusters or above them
- Making the bottom bezel bigger so the user is forced to type with standing arms and elbows
- Making the top bezel bigger so the user is encouraged to type with the keyboard closer to the body, forcing a straigh spine position
- Using only longer modifier keys (2U and beyond) to make it easier to hit those keys
Each single one of these concepts was tested and proven to either perform badly on optimization, having incompatibility with a keyset base kit, or simply not affecting the matter at hand so much so that it's worth the consideration. Have in mind seventeen iterations of the layout were done, tested and the three final ones were tested in locu, with real patients.
So it's not that this post is a "fake IC" that I did just to be on the moral high ground and secretly ditch all the feedback. It's just that every single feedback was considered and no compelling arguments were given. The only thing I wouldn't mind including layout-wise would be the second B key, but the real problem I don't want to include one is that I have a special purpose for that middle space between the clusters.
That being said, I reiterate that every single aspect of the layout is subject to feedback but in order for me to revise all that I did and renew the layout I need to hear something material about how it might make the layout better or fit the theme.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Wed, 24 June 2020, 00:29:55
(...)
Now, I'm not sure what sample the algorithm used to generate this layout. What I am seeing here is that the sample may not include many people cared enough to give feedback in this thread. This may or may not be a problem (...). What I worry is that the type of people that were used to train the algorithm may not necessarily be the type of people who are willing to try alternative layouts, which is the majority of the people I know .
(...)
Now we are talking.
The huge question any Data Scientist has to constantly ask him or herself is is: is the dataset biased in any way? That will deeply affect the algorithm, the optimization and the final results, of course! Well, the data science method leaves us to inquiry:
- What are the possible biases the dataset could have,
- How would these biases affect the final results and to which extent
- If the biases impact the results singnificantly, what kind of correction or restriction to the dataset would it require to yield more credible results
Analizing trends among the subjects we found out that there are three biases our dataset had:
- The great majority of subjects were right-handed
- Most injuries were caused by repetitive hand movement, but a significant portion were caused by accidents
- Many of the subjects had significant nerve, joint, bone or ligament lesions before our research took plate, some of them having records of surgical intervention on the wrist or hands
However, there were some qualities to our dataset we coudl be certain about:
- None of the subjects were children/adolescents who are still developing joints. All subjects were adults with completely formed joints, muscles and bones.
- No subject was under effect of anesthetic or drug that could affect their response
- All of the subjects had access to computers or mobile devices that carry a keyboard-type input, meaning we didn't teach anyone to use a keyboard. This is important because one might suspect we taught them the wrong way to use the keyboard, afffecting how they perceive the peripheral.
From these biases, we inferred that they could affect the datashet (thence the optimization) in the following ways.
Having the majority of data being from right-handed subjects proved not to be so impactful on usability. I did respond detailedly on this in a previous comment:
Thanks for spoon-feeding me the info! I actually took time to read the full post today. First thing--I'm truly sorry for the loss of Tom... It's a great thing you're doing making this board a part of his legacy. I didn't quite grok that the alternative layout option was showing that the two bottom rows could be swapped for arrow keys--and now I feel even sillier knowing that the arrows are part of the Sagittarius name!
I was also wondering about the differences in the stagger between right and left, but I see you've answered that. I suppose that this actually makes the board right-handed? (I'm a righty, so that's fine for me, but I just wanted to check).
It's also too bad that the last thing to be open-sourced will be the optimization algorithm, as that is the part that interests me the most! :D
This is an interesting question too: is Sagittarius left or right handed?
The optimization algorithm did take into accound a "left-handed or right-handed" parameter. We did take samples and measurements from a wide array of people, so we did have data from both orientations. The problem is that the majority of people (that's statistical, not personal opinion) are right-handed, so we did eventually ask the questions if our data was biased towards right-handed (which it clearly was). Since I was the data scientist I did some experimentation of rolling the algorithm only with left-handed data or even 50/50.
The results were very interesting. What it did show us is that the "left-handed oriented" layout was VERY harmful to right-handed people, that is, the right handed-oriented coordination tends to be more inflexible to orientation changes, whereas the "right-handed-biased" layout we had was not so bad to left-handed people.
Upon concluding this, we took is to Tom's advisor -- big rehabilitation surgeon and researcher -- and he told us that the result is completely understandable since everything in our world tends to be designed/aimed at righties because the big majority is right-handed, so the righties don't have to adapt. The lefties, on the other hand, are more tolerant towards right-handed appliances because they have to train their physiology -- muscles and muscular memory -- to use right-oriented appliances.
Our ultimate decision was to keep the layout with the whole of the data. Upon running the optimization results and the in locu testing -- we did het a dozen people to use the layout -- the left-handed that used the layout told us they were comfortable using the layout as well.
(...)
As for the bias number two -- the fact that some of the subjects were recovering from accident-induced lesions -- we concluded that it didn't make sense for us to make a layout optimized towards that public, simply because the focus of this keyboard is not being a physiotherapy, but offer a more comfortable option to those who have the exact opposite lesion, induced by repetitive hand movements. Hence we removed from the dataset the subjects with those kinds of lesions (accidental).
Finally, as for the third bias -- subjects that already had significant lesions before the research took place -- we considered that the fact they had this history was statistically enriching to us, because it will allow us to train the algorithm to accomodate people with these conditions. We don't know if the user that will type on a Sagittarius has or had previous lesions, and having that influence to the dataset is welcome. So we left those subjects there.
These were our thoughs and method. If you have an opinion on them, please share.
For your comments:
(...)
1. There are clusters of typing patterns.
2. For each cluster, there may be an optimal layout
(...)
You are completely right and we did think of that. The main motivation for statistics is that obviously for every single individual there is an optimal solution, but it's unfeasible to give each and everyone their particular optimal solution. So we adopt criteria and methods to ensure that one or a couple solutions are optimal to everyone in a degree of certainty.
Those are fancy words, so let us translate that to the problem at hand. The problem is: knowing that there are different typing patterns, how do we make a commercially viable layout that single-handedly attends to all of those typing patterns? Take for instance the mice market. As you might know, there are three main types of mouse grips: palms, fingertips and claw. This means that a particular mouse might feel obnoxious to you but estupendly comfortable to a friend; you should get a mouse that fits your particular grip, and there are tens if not hundreds of options to choose from. However we can't make two or three different layouts for Sagittarius, as that would probably require three different plates, three different PCBs and three different cases -- that is, three different keyboards altogether. This not only makes for a logistical nightmare but also divides the GB units, making the cases more expensive or even not meeting MOQ. In order to help with this, we tried adding as many layout compatibilities as we could -- ISO option, arrow options, split shift, split spaces, and so on.
On this, if you have a nice idea on how to help us, I'd appreciate a lot.
Another point where you are completely right is:
(...) So, I doubt that there's any scientific study having a big sample of mechanical keyboard hobbyists. (...)
This is indeed correct; our dataset comes from subjects that have little to no familiarity with this community. However, please note that the data group from this community that I have available is close to nonexistant. I would love to do that with people from the hobby, but even with all of these requirements the MKBR community is so ridiculously small that I can safelly assume the data we collected outnumbers the members of our entire Discord server, let alone the ones near me. I did, however, run the "pseudo-placebo" tests on five friends of mine that participate in the community, so I think I can have some validation there.
Also, please bear in mind that these are health-related tests, and in this field any kind of research or development has really tight requirements to be even considered scientific at all. Take for instance the COVID19 vaccine reserches in place: the tests and interviews have to be done in a very specific environment, under the guidance of a very specific and highly trained set of professionals in locu, using very controlled and precise measurements from hundred-thousand-dollar machines, on a strict control group that was watched closely for weeks, with a very specific care on treatment of the data, and using an equally specific method. As a statician you can vouch to the care and ultimate delicacy we have to treat results from the pharmacology/medicine industries and academia, and I can't make all of that work remotely.
Since we are past the point and already have some solid results, I'd love in the future to get very deep feedback from members and have them help us fine-tune the layout, without the intention of publishing papers or making hard science. But as Sagittarius is today, I intend to leave it as it is -- perhaps with some minimal changes due to the feedback we are receiving or significant changes if the reasoning is sound -- , not only in respect to the gargantuan amounts of effort I put into it but also in respect to the other people that worked on this -- specially Tom.
I apologise if this reply is too long or sounds arrogant in any way, as I tried to chew down and explain my thought train here with very basic concepts. You said you were a graduate-level statician, but I have to reply to everyone here that is reading this, not only those with a technical background.
Post by: danieljgrouse on Wed, 24 June 2020, 01:14:07
I assume I won’t be able to afford the first run of this board, it’s probably gonna be relatively expensive and deservedly so. This 100% deserves to be run as a high end premium board. Though I also hope there will eventually be a more budget run as well since accessibility aids like this deserve to be accessible to as many people as possible.
Overall the board looks amazing and this is one of the most impressive ICs I’ve seen in a long time.
Post by: gnho on Wed, 24 June 2020, 01:54:49
Now, apparently there are a number of people expressing some level of discontent. It could be the case that they just don't know how much they will love it when they give it 30 minutes (cue Steve Jobs). It could be the case that this layout won't work for them but will work for many other people. But every invention requires some early adopters. The MOQ needs to be hit. To convince people to share this risk, I don't think it's enough to say SCIENCE! I'm a scientist myself and sometimes it's not enough to generate trust.
I wonder whether it makes sense to go for a budget version of this keyboard first. You're likely to get more buy-ins if the price is low. If the layout does accumulate a reputation, I'm sure a premium version will sell. Another strategy is to send some prototypes to a number of influencers in the community and have them make some videos about the layout. I don't think your friends are the best sample to check external validity, scientifically speaking.
Moving forward, I wonder whether it's possible to collect data from the community so we can identify the clusters collectively. I imagine this can be done by letting people submit a video of themselves typing a long text, shot from a certain angle. I imagine all major layouts can be improved/optimized this way.
Cheers!
Post by: MdotMaxson on Wed, 24 June 2020, 05:05:17
Post by: MdotMaxson on Wed, 24 June 2020, 05:09:30
Post by: alphabirth on Wed, 24 June 2020, 05:26:23
Anyway, I was just thinking that, while probably not for this version, you might want to check out the Carpalx project: http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/ (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/). It's applying an optimization algorithm to design a key layout based on an input dataset. I've been meaning to try putting something together for myself to maybe start un-learning QWERTY, but haven't got around to it yet. It would be really neat if it could account for the physical board layout too (I mean, I guess I could add that functionality myself). Or vice versa--if your optimization algorithm for physical layout accounted for an optimized key layout...
Post by: Zeelobby on Wed, 24 June 2020, 06:04:21
It seems ironic that the keyboard community seems to have poor typing habits as compared to the general public, what with all the right-side 'B's and whatnot. :))
...
It is pretty funny.
Gon: This keyboard is ergonomically optimized and it's layout is meant to break bad habits and reduce strain while touch typing.
Audience: Can we add some bad habits back in?
Post by: the_real_shoes on Wed, 24 June 2020, 15:00:44
Post by: deepmail on Wed, 24 June 2020, 15:05:49
Post by: ubmit on Wed, 24 June 2020, 15:33:06
Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 24 June 2020, 15:58:07
It seems ironic that the keyboard community seems to have poor typing habits as compared to the general public, what with all the right-side 'B's and whatnot. :))Maybe the keyboard community is more varied than you think...
I see posts about "key on the wrong side" everywhere there is a discussion on an ergonomic keyboard with any mainstream appeal.
But enthusiast forums have been the only places where I've seen requests for right-side 'B' or left-side 'Y' on columnar keyboards. :rolleyes:
Post by: gnho on Wed, 24 June 2020, 16:00:57
Post by: Zeelobby on Wed, 24 June 2020, 16:35:38
Post by: deepmail on Wed, 24 June 2020, 20:23:37
Post by: rymnd6c28 on Thu, 25 June 2020, 21:11:45
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 25 June 2020, 22:32:48
Taeha says "Interestingggg" and he wants to try it.
Sounds like we should send him one then
I informed Upas, let's see if we can
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 25 June 2020, 22:42:24
It seems ironic that the keyboard community seems to have poor typing habits as compared to the general public, what with all the right-side 'B's and whatnot. :))
Anyway, I was just thinking that, while probably not for this version, you might want to check out the Carpalx project: http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/ (http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/). It's applying an optimization algorithm to design a key layout based on an input dataset. I've been meaning to try putting something together for myself to maybe start un-learning QWERTY, but haven't got around to it yet. It would be really neat if it could account for the physical board layout too (I mean, I guess I could add that functionality myself). Or vice versa--if your optimization algorithm for physical layout accounted for an optimized key layout...
I totally missed that project! Will take a look ASAP
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 25 June 2020, 22:58:46
We are working on revamping the case. The layout stays the same, but we took the feedback and are devising a more harmonic case that follows the layout better.
Post by: ExtraSaltyBS on Thu, 25 June 2020, 23:03:38
Just some ideas I thought of. I'm guessing it's too late, but new ideas could always help. Love the design; I'm very interested.
Post by: hkhawk on Thu, 25 June 2020, 23:24:07
Post by: bakuretsu on Thu, 25 June 2020, 23:55:16
I've never liked that the 6 is on the left side in Alice style layouts (it's just wrong, haha, you're supposed to use your right index finger to type 6) but on this layout it seems especially egregious as Y, H, and N are all in basically a columnar layout. I think this would be awesome if 6 was on the right and the left side was a bit less staggered.
100% agree about the 6. The positioning of everything else is completely correct when considering the proper way to type, so I don't get why the 6 is on the left side. Aesthetics? That goes against the whole concept of the board though.
Unless for some reason the typing lessons I took in school were correct about everything else except for which hand to use for 6.
Post by: konstantin on Fri, 26 June 2020, 00:16:09
I've never liked that the 6 is on the left side in Alice style layouts (it's just wrong, haha, you're supposed to use your right index finger to type 6) but on this layout it seems especially egregious as Y, H, and N are all in basically a columnar layout. I think this would be awesome if 6 was on the right and the left side was a bit less staggered.
100% agree about the 6. The positioning of everything else is completely correct when considering the proper way to type, so I don't get why the 6 is on the left side. Aesthetics? That goes against the whole concept of the board though.
Unless for some reason the typing lessons I took in school were correct about everything else except for which hand to use for 6.
That depends on who you ask.
(https://apus.tdksoft.co.uk/images/keyboard_touchtyping.png) (https://cdn.eventfinda.co.nz/uploads/events/transformed/1391279-613073-34.png?v=2)
To illustrate my point, these are the first two results for “touch typing” on Google Images.
On standard row stagger, the 6 key is physically closer to the left index finger, so you could argue that you should use your left hand for 6. Which, indeed, is what a lot of typists do. Hands do not follow the same stagger pattern as the keys do. If you had two right hands, they would, but as is, they don't, so the second image makes more sense imo/ime.
Edit: I think a lot of thought, time and effort has gone into developing this layout. Maybe we should focus our comments more on the other stuff, like the case design, cause there's a bigger chance that we can help improve that.
Personally I would like to see the outer and inner corners of the case reconciled. At the moment it seems like there's a big discrepancy between them.
Post by: Zilleon on Fri, 26 June 2020, 00:43:30
The only thing that concerns me about this kind of board is not being able to get one dues to limited units or something like that.
Hope this happens and I can get one :)
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Post by: econeuler on Fri, 26 June 2020, 01:39:55
Second, the most interesting IC, awesome job!
Post by: FunBox on Fri, 26 June 2020, 02:22:44
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Post by: Aevyn on Fri, 26 June 2020, 02:58:23
I had some of the same concerns as others about the B and the 6 being on the wrong sides but I feel like enough research has gone into this keyboard that I could simply alter my habits and the end result would be a more ergonomic/better typing experience. I know I'm sounding like a blindfolded fan boy but I don't know anyone else that might have researched this issue even half as much
Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
While the 6 is incorrect on the left side, the B is meant to be hit with your left hand
Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk
Post by: Zeelobby on Fri, 26 June 2020, 06:44:44
It's definitely an interesting discussion, but imo kind of flawed. Touch typing patterns were created on a board with no curvature and with little scientific study beyond basic premises like each finger should reach the same amount of keys, or, whatever key is closer to one sides home row is the correct one (both assumptions assume ambidexterity). The Alice layout (and em7 before it) definitely didn't take any scientific studies into consideration when choosing sides. Just because certain things were done these ways before doesn't necessarily mean it's the most ergonomic solution (even the QWERTY layout itself). The "this is how I was taught as a kid" argument is a bad one.
We have to kind of throw these previous recommendations and misconceptions out the window. It's already been stated that the layout has a right handed preference because the majority of people are right handed and left handed individuals found it easier to adjust. It's not shocking then that placing the 6 on the right side might be the most ergonomic solution considering the increased dexterity and accuracy of the right hand for those who are right handed. In the end data models can't lie (though sample size does matter). And the way we think touch typing should be kind of has to be redefined when given a blank slate (even if this one does have some restrictions like being able to use a base kit, or sticking with the QWERTY layout carried over from typewriters' physical limitations).
Just sharing my 2 cents. Not trying to shut any discussion down. Definitely thought provoking.
Post by: FunBox on Fri, 26 June 2020, 09:37:14
"Wrong" or "Incorrect" are strong words to use for this. As others have posted above and Zeelobby mentions. What is considered the right way has far more variables than simply "this I what I was taught" and so everyone else is wrong. There's a post in this thread that demonstrates this perfectly with the first 2 pictures on Google for touch typing being different.I had some of the same concerns as others about the B and the 6 being on the wrong sides but I feel like enough research has gone into this keyboard that I could simply alter my habits and the end result would be a more ergonomic/better typing experience. I know I'm sounding like a blindfolded fan boy but I don't know anyone else that might have researched this issue even half as much
Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
While the 6 is incorrect on the left side, the B is meant to be hit with your left hand
Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk
I have not the time nor the energy to spend days researching specific ergonomic differences between one key being on the other side or not. This is why I was saying I would rather place my faith into someone who has clearly spent a lot more time looking into it than I ever will.
If this means I need to alter one or two things about the way I type then so be it
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Post by: TopreMoon on Fri, 26 June 2020, 12:08:53
My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Fri, 26 June 2020, 12:21:53
Great design and amazing write-ups!Your objections to the logo placement makes sense to me.
My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?
I’d also like to see a Sagittarius logo, as you suggested.
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Post by: Heist Morty on Fri, 26 June 2020, 13:18:33
Post by: Bonsa on Fri, 26 June 2020, 18:51:17
The board looks amazing, but as a left handed person I can't feel this being more ergonomic than any other keyboard (I often have wrist strains due to the 'wrong' stagger of the left side of the keyboard, forcing me to bend my left hand very unnatural). I understand some cuts had to be made, nevertheless I'm hoping to see a left handed version in the future, although I don't know if there's enough support for that. I really appreciate all the work you've put in this design and the amount of patience you have. Your very detailed responses helped clarify some concerns.
As for the discussion of the B's, I type it with my left hand and I always learned to type it that way. I personally don't like the idea of having 2 B keys on a keyboard, I'd just stick with 1 and roll with it. It's different for the 6 key though. I hit it with either hand, depending on what hand is available first. But it's not a deal breaker, just nit-picking while I can.
Post by: ThePanduuh on Sat, 27 June 2020, 10:57:11
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 27 June 2020, 13:49:16
I know this is probably an impossible idea because the project is already so far through. But... I think to cut down on bezel size you should switch which side the lights and extra navigation keys are. I think the navigation keys on the right side of the board can go hand in hand with a normal board, and if someone chooses to use arrows instead of Ctrl and Alt. Additionally, what if the Cannon logo went in between the right space bar and the CtrlAlt/arrow key section? It's an idea that could potentially fill in that bare space. If not, maybe even adding an extra key could be useful.
Just some ideas I thought of. I'm guessing it's too late, but new ideas could always help. Love the design; I'm very interested.
We already have plans for that middle sector between the clusters; we are waiting on the new case design and prototype to take pictures.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 27 June 2020, 14:04:33
I've never liked that the 6 is on the left side in Alice style layouts (it's just wrong, haha, you're supposed to use your right index finger to type 6) but on this layout it seems especially egregious as Y, H, and N are all in basically a columnar layout. I think this would be awesome if 6 was on the right and the left side was a bit less staggered.
I've never liked that the 6 is on the left side in Alice style layouts (it's just wrong, haha, you're supposed to use your right index finger to type 6) but on this layout it seems especially egregious as Y, H, and N are all in basically a columnar layout. I think this would be awesome if 6 was on the right and the left side was a bit less staggered.
100% agree about the 6. The positioning of everything else is completely correct when considering the proper way to type, so I don't get why the 6 is on the left side. Aesthetics? That goes against the whole concept of the board though.
Unless for some reason the typing lessons I took in school were correct about everything else except for which hand to use for 6.
That depends on who you ask.Show Image(https://apus.tdksoft.co.uk/images/keyboard_touchtyping.png)Show Image(https://cdn.eventfinda.co.nz/uploads/events/transformed/1391279-613073-34.png?v=2)
To illustrate my point, these are the first two results for “touch typing” on Google Images.
On standard row stagger, the 6 key is physically closer to the left index finger, so you could argue that you should use your left hand for 6. Which, indeed, is what a lot of typists do. Hands do not follow the same stagger pattern as the keys do. If you had two right hands, they would, but as is, they don't, so the second image makes more sense imo/ime.
Edit: I think a lot of thought, time and effort has gone into developing this layout. Maybe we should focus our comments more on the other stuff, like the case design, cause there's a bigger chance that we can help improve that.
Personally I would like to see the outer and inner corners of the case reconciled. At the moment it seems like there's a big discrepancy between them.
I've never liked that the 6 is on the left side in Alice style layouts (it's just wrong, haha, you're supposed to use your right index finger to type 6) but on this layout it seems especially egregious as Y, H, and N are all in basically a columnar layout. I think this would be awesome if 6 was on the right and the left side was a bit less staggered.
100% agree about the 6. The positioning of everything else is completely correct when considering the proper way to type, so I don't get why the 6 is on the left side. Aesthetics? That goes against the whole concept of the board though.
Unless for some reason the typing lessons I took in school were correct about everything else except for which hand to use for 6.
I had some of the same concerns as others about the B and the 6 being on the wrong sides but I feel like enough research has gone into this keyboard that I could simply alter my habits and the end result would be a more ergonomic/better typing experience. I know I'm sounding like a blindfolded fan boy but I don't know anyone else that might have researched this issue even half as much
Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
While the 6 is incorrect on the left side, the B is meant to be hit with your left hand
Sent from my GM1915 using Tapatalk
There are four things here that we need to consider here.
The first of them being that touch typing is a technique invented and re-invented through use and trial by fire, and there is not a single template for touch typing. This respose sums it up:
I've never liked that the 6 is on the left side in Alice style layouts (it's just wrong, haha, you're supposed to use your right index finger to type 6) but on this layout it seems especially egregious as Y, H, and N are all in basically a columnar layout. I think this would be awesome if 6 was on the right and the left side was a bit less staggered.
100% agree about the 6. The positioning of everything else is completely correct when considering the proper way to type, so I don't get why the 6 is on the left side. Aesthetics? That goes against the whole concept of the board though.
Unless for some reason the typing lessons I took in school were correct about everything else except for which hand to use for 6.
That depends on who you ask.Show Image(https://apus.tdksoft.co.uk/images/keyboard_touchtyping.png)Show Image(https://cdn.eventfinda.co.nz/uploads/events/transformed/1391279-613073-34.png?v=2)
To illustrate my point, these are the first two results for “touch typing” on Google Images.
On standard row stagger, the 6 key is physically closer to the left index finger, so you could argue that you should use your left hand for 6. Which, indeed, is what a lot of typists do. Hands do not follow the same stagger pattern as the keys do. If you had two right hands, they would, but as is, they don't, so the second image makes more sense imo/ime.
Edit: I think a lot of thought, time and effort has gone into developing this layout. Maybe we should focus our comments more on the other stuff, like the case design, cause there's a bigger chance that we can help improve that.
Personally I would like to see the outer and inner corners of the case reconciled. At the moment it seems like there's a big discrepancy between them.
The first versions of the Sagittarius layout were based on the technique, with columns and rows staggered in a way that the user would have an easier time touch typing. However we could not find any rigorous scientific evidence that could debunk or confirm the efficiency of touch typing, and the results we had were not promising really, so we just left the idea of basing ourselves in the touch typing technique. In this sense, we can't affirm with certainty that something is right or wrong ergonomically speaking because touch typists do it. What I can state firmly is that the Sagittarius layout does help and incentivize touch typing, giving some insight as to why the technique works. This however is pure result analysis and not a direct "touch typing is not scientifically proven to work". It's something more like: touch typing and the Sagittarius layout have a common feature, which is separate regions of the layout for each finger, allowing for muscle memory and less hand movement.
The second thing is to consider that the ultimate ergonomics are individual. If you feel comfortable with 6 on the left or right that's your personal preference and a legitimate claim. The 6 key was a very fluid problem in our design; we had to use a genetic algorithm to determine its best placement. Putting it on the left part was always the best option optimization-wise, and the people that used the layout confirmed that whichever side we put it, they felt more comfortable with the 6 on the left side.
And third, when we felt we hit a plateau we always searched for how the Microsoft Ergo did it: left B and left 6. This was a confirmation for us that both these keys should be in the left cluster, so that is how we did it.
(https://compass-ssl.xboxlive.com/assets/62/8d/628d39fb-0944-4cc1-9260-60ba6fcffd27.jpg?n=SED_STop_FY16New.jpg)
Furthermore, bear in mind that the 6 in the right cluster overloads the number row of the right cluster.
Finally, the fourth one.
"Wrong" or "Incorrect" are strong words to use for this. As others have posted above and Zeelobby mentions. What is considered the right way has far more variables than simply "this I what I was taught" and so everyone else is wrong. There's a post in this thread that demonstrates this perfectly with the first 2 pictures on Google for touch typing being different.
I have not the time nor the energy to spend days researching specific ergonomic differences between one key being on the other side or not. This is why I was saying I would rather place my faith into someone who has clearly spent a lot more time looking into it than I ever will.
If this means I need to alter one or two things about the way I type then so be it
Sent from my SM-N975U1 using Tapatalk
I am very uncomfortable in attributing judgement to a typing technique as "wrong" or "right". This community is based on personal taste and customization; if there was a "right" and a "wrong" way of doing it, we wouldn't have so many layouts and options around.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 27 June 2020, 14:17:32
Great design and amazing write-ups!
My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?
Great design and amazing write-ups!Your objections to the logo placement makes sense to me.
My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?
I’d also like to see a Sagittarius logo, as you suggested.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You will be surprised. There is a Sagittarius logo on Sagittarius, but you can't see it. Yet.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 27 June 2020, 14:32:47
Another home run from gondo, can't wait to see this board come to fruition, Great work man.
(https://i.imgflip.com/341acs.jpg)
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 27 June 2020, 14:35:13
Very sorry for your friend passing away.
The board looks amazing, but as a left handed person I can't feel this being more ergonomic than any other keyboard (I often have wrist strains due to the 'wrong' stagger of the left side of the keyboard, forcing me to bend my left hand very unnatural). I understand some cuts had to be made, nevertheless I'm hoping to see a left handed version in the future, although I don't know if there's enough support for that. I really appreciate all the work you've put in this design and the amount of patience you have. Your very detailed responses helped clarify some concerns.
As for the discussion of the B's, I type it with my left hand and I always learned to type it that way. I personally don't like the idea of having 2 B keys on a keyboard, I'd just stick with 1 and roll with it. It's different for the 6 key though. I hit it with either hand, depending on what hand is available first. But it's not a deal breaker, just nit-picking while I can.
The left or right handed discussion is a big issue here. We can maybe develop a left-handed version sometime, but I wonder if this would be viable or even reach MOQ. We can try though.
For the 6 key discussion, see the above comment.
Post by: hangul on Sat, 27 June 2020, 15:23:07
Post by: dvorcol on Sat, 27 June 2020, 19:23:53
Great design and amazing write-ups!
My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?Great design and amazing write-ups!Your objections to the logo placement makes sense to me.
My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?
I’d also like to see a Sagittarius logo, as you suggested.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You will be surprised. There is a Sagittarius logo on Sagittarius, but you can't see it. Yet.
Careful inspection of the PCB hints at a location for the Sagittarius logo.
More
(https://imgur.com/z5CBjQY.png)
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 27 June 2020, 19:59:54
Great design and amazing write-ups!
My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?Great design and amazing write-ups!Your objections to the logo placement makes sense to me.
My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?
I’d also like to see a Sagittarius logo, as you suggested.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You will be surprised. There is a Sagittarius logo on Sagittarius, but you can't see it. Yet.
Careful inspection of the PCB hints at a location for the Sagittarius logo.MoreShow Image(https://imgur.com/z5CBjQY.png)
ssshhh ssshhh
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Sun, 28 June 2020, 00:48:15
TOO LATE!! Now I know.Great design and amazing write-ups!
My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?Great design and amazing write-ups!Your objections to the logo placement makes sense to me.
My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?
I’d also like to see a Sagittarius logo, as you suggested.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You will be surprised. There is a Sagittarius logo on Sagittarius, but you can't see it. Yet.
Careful inspection of the PCB hints at a location for the Sagittarius logo.MoreShow Image(https://imgur.com/z5CBjQY.png)
ssshhh ssshhh
Post by: julianz on Sun, 28 June 2020, 01:56:08
I was wondering if you were open to having an Oceania vendor? (Might i recommend Stef from https://www.switchkeys.com.au/, hes a super nice and awesome guy!)
Post by: callidumnomen on Mon, 29 June 2020, 20:43:58
Post by: RossLocke18 on Sun, 05 July 2020, 14:26:47
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sun, 05 July 2020, 15:48:07
I personally really like this! Only thing I would suggest is to potentially make use of all the dead space in the middle. An engraving, logo, badge, rotary lol. But I will certainly be keeping my eyes on this one :)
We already have something on that space. You are gonna love it!
Post by: dvorcol on Sun, 05 July 2020, 18:27:53
I personally really like this! Only thing I would suggest is to potentially make use of all the dead space in the middle. An engraving, logo, badge, rotary lol. But I will certainly be keeping my eyes on this one :)
We already have something on that space. You are gonna love it!
Nudge nudge wink wink. Say no more, say no more.
More
Great design and amazing write-ups!
My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?Great design and amazing write-ups!Your objections to the logo placement makes sense to me.
My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?
I’d also like to see a Sagittarius logo, as you suggested.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You will be surprised. There is a Sagittarius logo on Sagittarius, but you can't see it. Yet.
Careful inspection of the PCB hints at a location for the Sagittarius logo.MoreShow Image(https://imgur.com/z5CBjQY.png)
ssshhh ssshhh
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sun, 05 July 2020, 20:24:20
I personally really like this! Only thing I would suggest is to potentially make use of all the dead space in the middle. An engraving, logo, badge, rotary lol. But I will certainly be keeping my eyes on this one :)
We already have something on that space. You are gonna love it!
Nudge nudge wink wink. Say no more, say no more.MoreGreat design and amazing write-ups!
My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?Great design and amazing write-ups!Your objections to the logo placement makes sense to me.
My only comment is just being nit-picky - I'm not a huge fan of the recessed logo so close to where hands might glaze/rub/touch. It seems to me that it would collect more dust/grim than if it was placed on the upper corners/middle. Personally, I would love to see a Sagittarius themed logo - maybe the constellation can be a backdrop to the cannonkeys logo?
I’d also like to see a Sagittarius logo, as you suggested.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You will be surprised. There is a Sagittarius logo on Sagittarius, but you can't see it. Yet.
Careful inspection of the PCB hints at a location for the Sagittarius logo.MoreShow Image(https://imgur.com/z5CBjQY.png)
ssshhh ssshhh
wink wink
Post by: Wamuu on Mon, 06 July 2020, 14:34:05
Post by: lakeboredom on Tue, 07 July 2020, 05:38:59
Post by: konstantin on Tue, 07 July 2020, 07:41:24
Very excited to try this layout. The big rounded corners of the case are an aesthetic turn off though. To mirror what someone else commented, I think it's the combination of rounded corners and sharper squared off edges in the middle that I find kind of mismatched.
Agreed on all points.
Post by: mizuwolf on Fri, 10 July 2020, 15:52:18
Post by: openstruct on Mon, 13 July 2020, 10:51:03
Post by: Wamuu on Wed, 15 July 2020, 23:51:26
Ohhh man I love the arrow keys option; I'd be alllll over this if it was hotswap! Fingers crossed you're able to make that work c:
Probably impossible to do without giving up the ability to use rotary encoders.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 16 July 2020, 00:37:14
Very excited to try this layout. The big rounded corners of the case are an aesthetic turn off though. To mirror what someone else commented, I think it's the combination of rounded corners and sharper squared off edges in the middle that I find kind of mismatched.
Very excited to try this layout. The big rounded corners of the case are an aesthetic turn off though. To mirror what someone else commented, I think it's the combination of rounded corners and sharper squared off edges in the middle that I find kind of mismatched.
Agreed on all points.
Case is being reworked and we should see an update soon!
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 16 July 2020, 00:40:49
Ohhh man I love the arrow keys option; I'd be alllll over this if it was hotswap! Fingers crossed you're able to make that work c:
Probably impossible to do without giving up the ability to use rotary encoders.
Right on the dot -- also, doing hotswap with suspended PCB designs like top mount and gasket is a nightmare because we have to include posts on the PCB and plates, making for a new plate+PCB kit. This is a double-edged sword because if we offer that as an addon on top of a possible default solderable PCB and "normal" plate people will get angry because they are forced into getting two kits. On the other hand, if we make it a new kit that can be selected, it will break kit numbers -- possibly not reaching MOQ on the process -- and making for more logistics, more kits to manage, more shipping.
Hotswap also has technical problems, such as a shortened PCB lifespan and the possibility of popping the sockets out.
Post by: DukeEsquire on Thu, 16 July 2020, 00:44:36
Ohhh man I love the arrow keys option; I'd be alllll over this if it was hotswap! Fingers crossed you're able to make that work c:
Just mill-max it.
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Thu, 16 July 2020, 01:15:14
Just mill-max it.
Sorry if this has been answered before, I know it’s been asked on at least one of the GBs I’m following.
Can the PCB be Mill-Maxed?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Post by: konstantin on Thu, 16 July 2020, 19:37:53
Case is being reworked and we should see an update soon!
Great news, thanks Gondo!
Post by: perry4761 on Wed, 22 July 2020, 21:21:59
Post by: SenseiJia on Wed, 22 July 2020, 21:41:23
Post by: Kahgen on Thu, 23 July 2020, 17:26:11
Post by: kommotion on Thu, 23 July 2020, 20:13:17
Post by: jmcameron on Thu, 30 July 2020, 15:36:53
-Jonathan
Post by: RedBananaBread on Fri, 31 July 2020, 01:10:50
Post by: Xpliscit on Fri, 31 July 2020, 21:00:23
Post by: hudsonnc on Sat, 01 August 2020, 08:15:06
I really love your approach to this -- optimization using mathematical bio-mechanical models, testing with real humans with an eye towards making this usable for people with repetitive use injuries, etc. Really nice work. And my condolences about your friend. It's really lovely that you are trying to help out his family a bit with the proceeds, and I would be honored to contribute (and get a sweet keyboard too!).
Post by: perry4761 on Sun, 02 August 2020, 10:42:58
Post by: Xpliscit on Sun, 02 August 2020, 13:17:33
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sun, 02 August 2020, 15:41:25
Having the option of choosing a case with rounded cutouts for the knobs would be a very nice addition, even though I totally understand all the reasons why you might not want to do that. Can’t wait for this to go into GB, I love the scientific approach you guys took for this board! I hope this layout catches on
Rounded cutouts do not support switches, unfortunately
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sun, 02 August 2020, 15:42:04
What about a frosted polycarb case option?
If Upas can offer it, I don't see why not. The format of the group buy (colors, materials, quantities) is totally up to him
Post by: beigeandbrown on Sun, 02 August 2020, 15:57:18
Post by: Ammomruoy on Wed, 05 August 2020, 06:07:33
Post by: Wamuu on Wed, 05 August 2020, 17:58:02
Post by: Xpliscit on Wed, 05 August 2020, 19:23:18
Post by: Gondolindrim on Wed, 05 August 2020, 20:25:45
Is there an updated (estimated) timeline for GB? Or is UPAS the decider on that?
He is currently reworking the case and it's hard to give an estimate. It's done when we feel the case is on par with design standards and we are sure that we have achieved the feedback given here.
Post by: Wamuu on Wed, 05 August 2020, 20:37:26
Post by: HRB on Wed, 05 August 2020, 22:08:18
Post by: samanth on Wed, 05 August 2020, 22:39:56
Post by: Gondolindrim on Wed, 05 August 2020, 23:13:20
any chance the PCB will also be VIA compatible?
PCB will definitely be VIA compatible, don't need to resort to chance :D
Post by: Gondolindrim on Wed, 05 August 2020, 23:14:03
I can wait for all other keycap sets and boards without any problem, but I get really impatient with this board. I want it asap so bad.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/652/115/f4c.jpg)
Post by: Gondolindrim on Wed, 05 August 2020, 23:15:11
Definitely on my list. Always in for a good cause. Cheers.
Thanks mate! Cheers!
Post by: HRB on Wed, 05 August 2020, 23:19:36
I meant.. I only waited less than two months now and it feels like it's been at least 4~5 months since I first read this IC post. Can't waitI can wait for all other keycap sets and boards without any problem, but I get really impatient with this board. I want it asap so bad.Show Image(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/652/115/f4c.jpg)
Post by: Wamuu on Thu, 06 August 2020, 07:27:59
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 06 August 2020, 11:14:33
I'm curious to see how the RGB will look on the pcb. So the only points of RGB on the board will be the points that create the Sagittarius? Won't a significant of the RGB then not actually be underneath the solid parts of the case and not under keys where they can be appreciated?
Albeit being under the case, you will be able to see the RGB lights.
Post by: Mistah on Tue, 11 August 2020, 15:19:13
I'm not sure if you were still considering layout changes, or if it's solidified by now, but I have a question/suggestion if you are. What do you think of an inward left hand slant the same way the right hand slants, like in the Atreus (https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/028/403/112/26be27a970f5b409de897f478311b845_original.jpg?ixlib=rb-2.1.0&w=680&fit=max&v=1583961048&auto=format&frame=1&q=92&s=938c57f9d7668479682cdbbcf9035c2b) or Boardrun (https://i.imgur.com/IkHcCYd.png)? I'm curious on how that would fit into the optimization logic, or if the ergonomic slant was already considered.
I'm excited for this keyboard; I'll be watching it!
Edit: for the first time, I've read through all threads and understood the reasoning. Fair points! Interested to see what the middle space will be used for.
Post by: TopreMoon on Thu, 13 August 2020, 23:04:47
Quote
For those interested in the Sagittarius - our revised design is done, and we've ordered prototypes.
Ahhhhhh!!
Post by: baobaozi on Sat, 15 August 2020, 07:42:01
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 15 August 2020, 11:46:56
I only just noticed that the 6 key is on the left hand section and that makes me so sad.
There already were discussions on the B, the 6, the Y, the space cluster. Choices are explained there
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 15 August 2020, 12:03:55
From Cannon Keys Newsletter on August 13 titled "CannonKeys Update: Naevy Switches, GMK First Love and Bunch of Deskmat Extras", there is a little snippet that says:QuoteFor those interested in the Sagittarius - our revised design is done, and we've ordered prototypes.
Ahhhhhh!!
Upas allowed me some sneak peek on the new case and.. Phew.
Post by: Zeelobby on Sat, 15 August 2020, 17:44:35
Update #3:What a tease!From Cannon Keys Newsletter on August 13 titled "CannonKeys Update: Naevy Switches, GMK First Love and Bunch of Deskmat Extras", there is a little snippet that says:QuoteFor those interested in the Sagittarius - our revised design is done, and we've ordered prototypes.
Ahhhhhh!!
Upas allowed me some sneak peek on the new case and.. Phew.
Post by: baobaozi on Sat, 15 August 2020, 20:33:17
I only just noticed that the 6 key is on the left hand section and that makes me so sad.
There already were discussions on the B, the 6, the Y, the space cluster. Choices are explained there
ahh yep, have read through it, for anybody else frantically searching for “6”, the discussion is on page 4.
yeah, I think it was that in Europe they teach touch typing with 6 on left, while when I learnt in Australia, it was taught with 6 on right. Not gonna say right or wrong, but this is what I learnt and that’s why it makes me sad.
The nice thing about split orthos though is that 6, Y are always on right side, and B is on left. This is perfect for me.
Thank you though and good luck with everything, still think this is a beautiful board, and it was pretty much the only Alice-style I would consider
Post by: tripnvll on Fri, 21 August 2020, 13:39:34
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 21 August 2020, 17:56:06
I used the printable layout guide to make an approximation of this layout on a two board Dumang DK6 Ergo (limited to 1u and 1.25u modules for now). The DK6 Ergo boards are a bit too narrow to fit the PgUp/PgDn/Home/End keys in this layout, but the standard size DK6 rectangular boards (206mm wide vs the 147mm wide larger sections of the DK6 Ergo) would almost certainly fit them. Liking it so far after about half an hour of using it, but I will be modifying it a bit as the backspace and pipe keys are a bit too much of a stretch for my small hands/short fingers. I'll probably incorporate an arrow cluster and one or two horizontal/vertical combo thumb keys as well and of course replace the keycaps with something nicer.
(Attachment Link)
Awesome!
Post by: Scriba on Tue, 25 August 2020, 06:23:05
Post by: Gondolindrim on Wed, 26 August 2020, 14:23:50
Post by: Hdjekso on Wed, 26 August 2020, 21:23:14
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand someone did a carboard prototype.flex 100
Post by: Gondolindrim on Wed, 26 August 2020, 22:39:39
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand someone did a carboard prototype.flex 100
Never has cardboard sounded so good.
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Thu, 27 August 2020, 08:17:08
I think that’s quite a claim to fame. I can imagine Tom would’ve been chuffed.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 27 August 2020, 10:38:11
Can KeyCult or Rama or Smith & Rune claim to have been cardboarded?
I think that’s quite a claim to fame. I can imagine Tom would’ve been chuffed.
If anything it's flattering to have people so hyped up for my keyboard they'll make cardboard prototypes of it. I won, Keycult. Your turn now.
Post by: yorsem on Thu, 27 August 2020, 18:15:33
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Fri, 28 August 2020, 03:34:18
Can KeyCult or Rama or Smith & Rune claim to have been cardboarded?
I think that’s quite a claim to fame. I can imagine Tom would’ve been chuffed.
If anything it's flattering to have people so hyped up for my keyboard they'll make cardboard prototypes of it. I won, Keycult. Your turn now.
Exactly!
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 03 September 2020, 22:13:35
(https://i.imgur.com/mDDRdVV.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1ZqU7Jw.jpeg)
Post by: hottrout on Sat, 05 September 2020, 02:35:56
Post by: PBZ on Sun, 06 September 2020, 21:28:42
It's printed in two parts, so could be used split, but that's obviously not how it was designed.
First impressions: it certainly keeps your wrists in line with your forearms (little/no ulnar deviation) and it's quite comfortable. For me, I could feel stretching in my fingers when typing the G and H keys (I touch type); this could be my posture, the key positioning on my mockup could be out, or I might just need to get used to it.
Since it's in two parts, I tried tenting it slightly which felt really good and even made reaching the G and H keys less of a stretch.
No, I am not going to make the STL or Fusion files available; please don't ask :-)
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3]
Post by: Gondolindrim on Mon, 07 September 2020, 02:35:58
I've been looking at ergonomic keyboards for a while and tripped across this one recently. I quite like the looks of it, so I decided to mock one up using a 3D printer.
It's printed in two parts, so could be used split, but that's obviously not how it was designed.
First impressions: it certainly keeps your wrists in line with your forearms (little/no ulnar deviation) and it's quite comfortable. For me, I could feel stretching in my fingers when typing the G and H keys (I touch type); this could be my posture, the key positioning on my mockup could be out, or I might just need to get used to it.
Since it's in two parts, I tried tenting it slightly which felt really good and even made reaching the G and H keys less of a stretch.
No, I am not going to make the STL or Fusion files available; please don't ask :-)
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Hooooly molly this is awesome!!!
Maybe you can publish the files after the PCB is open sourced??
Post by: PBZ on Mon, 07 September 2020, 20:58:30
Hooooly molly this is awesome!!!
Maybe you can publish the files after the PCB is open sourced??
Yep, I'll publish this when everything is open sourced, though it really needs someone more skilled in Fusion 360 than me to do a proper job.
Post by: Pluto19 on Tue, 08 September 2020, 00:08:03
Post by: Scriba on Tue, 22 September 2020, 06:14:56
Post by: Gondolindrim on Tue, 22 September 2020, 08:26:12
any updates?
New case is en route to Upas and we should see the new design soon
Post by: perry4761 on Tue, 22 September 2020, 14:11:25
Post by: Gondolindrim on Tue, 22 September 2020, 15:48:41
Do you have any updates regarding the paper that will be published about this layout? I'm anxious to read it!
No papers are being published about the layout itself; were I to write such paper I wouldn't be able to open source the layout.
The papers being published are two. One about the biomechanical optimization method, which was already approved in a journal and should be published in Q3 2020. The second one about the numerical method we developed using hybrid Karash-kun-Tucker and evolutionary algorithms ("machine learning"). This one is still under development
Post by: beigeandbrown on Tue, 22 September 2020, 19:10:06
Post by: perry4761 on Tue, 22 September 2020, 23:50:07
Do you have any updates regarding the paper that will be published about this layout? I'm anxious to read it!
No papers are being published about the layout itself; were I to write such paper I wouldn't be able to open source the layout.
The papers being published are two. One about the biomechanical optimization method, which was already approved in a journal and should be published in Q3 2020. The second one about the numerical method we developed using hybrid Karash-kun-Tucker and evolutionary algorithms ("machine learning"). This one is still under development
Please let us know when and where these articles get published! I’m assuming you meant Q4 since Q3 ends in a few days!
Also, I watched a bit of Taeha’s stream today. I know that you have a new case design on the way, but I was wondering if the plate material and design were final? Why go through the immense trouble of these huge flex cutouts on the PCB, only to mount that pcb to a rigid brass playe devoid of any flex cuts? I’m not criticizing, I’m just genuinely curious about the choices here. I have very limited (read: zero) knowledge on the subject of innovative PCBs such as yours.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Wed, 23 September 2020, 01:50:11
Do you have any updates regarding the paper that will be published about this layout? I'm anxious to read it!
No papers are being published about the layout itself; were I to write such paper I wouldn't be able to open source the layout.
The papers being published are two. One about the biomechanical optimization method, which was already approved in a journal and should be published in Q3 2020. The second one about the numerical method we developed using hybrid Karash-kun-Tucker and evolutionary algorithms ("machine learning"). This one is still under development
Please let us know when and where these articles get published! I’m assuming you meant Q4 since Q3 ends in a few days!
Also, I watched a bit of Taeha’s stream today. I know that you have a new case design on the way, but I was wondering if the plate material and design were final? Why go through the immense trouble of these huge flex cutouts on the PCB, only to mount that pcb to a rigid brass playe devoid of any flex cuts? I’m not criticizing, I’m just genuinely curious about the choices here. I have very limited (read: zero) knowledge on the subject of innovative PCBs such as yours.
The plate was my ****up. Plain and simple. I used those hideous plate mount stab cutouts and Upas had to sand the plate down to fit PCB mount stabs, but apparently he didn't file enough and the backspace cutout was a tight fit. Material-wise, we are planning other materials yes. Once we have prototype pictures I'll post them here. I will open-source the plate files and will also make available FR4 files so that anyone can order new plates in a PCB factory. The PCB will also be open-sourced.
I obviously got rid of the plate mount cutouts and the final plate will of course have the common square cutouts for PCB mount stabs as it should have been in the first place.
As for the papers, it all depends on the journals revisors and editors. Since the pandemic arrived, all scientific meetings like conferences and proceedings are being either held until further notice or cancelled, so I wouldn't know exactly when the journal will go published. The paper was submitted in december of last year if I recall correctly and the conference was supposed to happen in november 2020, but of course it was postponed.
Post by: perry4761 on Wed, 23 September 2020, 03:19:48
That’s great to know about the plate material!Do you have any updates regarding the paper that will be published about this layout? I'm anxious to read it!
No papers are being published about the layout itself; were I to write such paper I wouldn't be able to open source the layout.
The papers being published are two. One about the biomechanical optimization method, which was already approved in a journal and should be published in Q3 2020. The second one about the numerical method we developed using hybrid Karash-kun-Tucker and evolutionary algorithms ("machine learning"). This one is still under development
Please let us know when and where these articles get published! I’m assuming you meant Q4 since Q3 ends in a few days!
Also, I watched a bit of Taeha’s stream today. I know that you have a new case design on the way, but I was wondering if the plate material and design were final? Why go through the immense trouble of these huge flex cutouts on the PCB, only to mount that pcb to a rigid brass playe devoid of any flex cuts? I’m not criticizing, I’m just genuinely curious about the choices here. I have very limited (read: zero) knowledge on the subject of innovative PCBs such as yours.
The plate was my ****up. Plain and simple. I used those hideous plate mount stab cutouts and Upas had to sand the plate down to fit PCB mount stabs, but apparently he didn't file enough and the backspace cutout was a tight fit. Material-wise, we are planning other materials yes. Once we have prototype pictures I'll post them here. I will open-source the plate files and will also make available FR4 files so that anyone can order new plates in a PCB factory. The PCB will also be open-sourced.
I obviously got rid of the plate mount cutouts and the final plate will of course have the common square cutouts for PCB mount stabs as it should have been in the first place.
As for the papers, it all depends on the journals revisors and editors. Since the pandemic arrived, all scientific meetings like conferences and proceedings are being either held until further notice or cancelled, so I wouldn't know exactly when the journal will go published. The paper was submitted in december of last year if I recall correctly and the conference was supposed to happen in november 2020, but of course it was postponed.
I just want to clarify that I was not asking about the stab cutouts nor the tolerances of the plate, such issues are to be expected out of a prototype, it’s not something anyone should hold against you or upas.
What I meant was that the plate on stream was a full plate that did not have any cutouts or relief cuts, nor did it use leaf springs. The design of the pcb had led me to believe that the board was designed with a certain amount of flex in mind, and yet the plate of the proto seems to go against that. I’m not someone who has a strong preference when it comes to flex in my boards, so either way it won’t be a dealbreaker, but seeing that plate on stream made me wonder if it was because a half-plate was going to be offered, if the plate was going to feature relief cuts, or if there was another reason than flex behind the cutouts on the pcb.
I hope I’m not too much of a bother with my questions!
EDIT: OH GOD THE NEW CASE IS SO SEXY
Post by: beigeandbrown on Wed, 23 September 2020, 14:57:32
Post by: Pylon on Wed, 23 September 2020, 18:11:52
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Post by: beigeandbrown on Wed, 23 September 2020, 19:26:11
Post by: hkhawk on Thu, 24 September 2020, 01:00:30
are there new pics somewhere?
Go to 4:02 https://www.twitch.tv/videos/749096405
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Thu, 24 September 2020, 06:22:09
Go to 4:02 https://www.twitch.tv/videos/749096405
Wow, new cases look awesome! I disagree with Taeha, with curvy keycap rows, a boxy case would have not fitted. The new curvy cases look great, and fit the design of the Sagittarius well.
Thanks for highlighting. Sneaky Gondo.
Post by: grundlemere on Thu, 24 September 2020, 07:44:39
Post by: mbsurfer on Thu, 24 September 2020, 09:36:11
And here are screenshots of the new case for those that can't view Twitch at work:
(https://i.imgur.com/v4pRPsf.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/JhJ3gQv.jpg)
Post by: kidpid on Thu, 24 September 2020, 10:56:38
Post by: zoo on Thu, 24 September 2020, 22:33:47
Post by: hottrout on Fri, 25 September 2020, 06:37:25
Post by: terrad on Fri, 25 September 2020, 11:07:50
Sent from my IN2023 using Tapatalk
Post by: OkLobster3 on Fri, 25 September 2020, 16:15:29
Post by: lemmebuildthings on Fri, 25 September 2020, 16:20:05
I'm digging the new case design a lot more, but I'm also iffy on the engraving in the middle as well. Perhaps it could replace the Cannonkeys logo (which I think is completely fine as is) but IMHO it would be best incorporated into the brass weight, opposed to looking more of an afterthought on a gorgeous case.Definitely would look better if it replaced the Cannonkeys logo, or even if it was placed on the underside or the top side
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 25 September 2020, 16:23:55
I'm digging the new case design a lot more, but I'm also iffy on the engraving in the middle as well. Perhaps it could replace the Cannonkeys logo (which I think is completely fine as is) but IMHO it would be best incorporated into the brass weight, opposed to looking more of an afterthought on a gorgeous case.
The engraving right in the middle is a bit too much for me, but the shape and everything else is great!
Sent from my IN2023 using Tapatalk
I'm digging the new case design a lot more, but I'm also iffy on the engraving in the middle as well. Perhaps it could replace the Cannonkeys logo (which I think is completely fine as is) but IMHO it would be best incorporated into the brass weight, opposed to looking more of an afterthought on a gorgeous case.Definitely would look better if it replaced the Cannonkeys logo, or even if it was placed on the underside or the top side
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The engraving in the middle gives the drawing of the constellation using the "stars" RGBs. There will be RGBs in every vertix of the constellation, that is, every star will have an RGB LED and the engraving in the middle connects them.
As for the CK logo, unfortunately Upas has made his decision and it stays. I respect his position.
Post by: lemmebuildthings on Fri, 25 September 2020, 16:30:51
Oh if there's going to be RGB LEDs to represent the stars that changes things, personally I would think that would look super rad, but definitely would need to see an actual prototype of it to see if it works in practice.I'm digging the new case design a lot more, but I'm also iffy on the engraving in the middle as well. Perhaps it could replace the Cannonkeys logo (which I think is completely fine as is) but IMHO it would be best incorporated into the brass weight, opposed to looking more of an afterthought on a gorgeous case.The engraving right in the middle is a bit too much for me, but the shape and everything else is great!
Sent from my IN2023 using TapatalkI'm digging the new case design a lot more, but I'm also iffy on the engraving in the middle as well. Perhaps it could replace the Cannonkeys logo (which I think is completely fine as is) but IMHO it would be best incorporated into the brass weight, opposed to looking more of an afterthought on a gorgeous case.Definitely would look better if it replaced the Cannonkeys logo, or even if it was placed on the underside or the top side
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The engraving in the middle gives the drawing of the constellation using the "stars" RGBs. There will be RGBs in every vertix of the constellation, that is, every star will have an RGB LED and the engraving in the middle connects them.
As for the CK logo, unfortunately Upas has made his decision and it stays. I respect his position.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: OkLobster3 on Sat, 26 September 2020, 11:54:48
I'm digging the new case design a lot more, but I'm also iffy on the engraving in the middle as well. Perhaps it could replace the Cannonkeys logo (which I think is completely fine as is) but IMHO it would be best incorporated into the brass weight, opposed to looking more of an afterthought on a gorgeous case.The engraving right in the middle is a bit too much for me, but the shape and everything else is great!
Sent from my IN2023 using TapatalkI'm digging the new case design a lot more, but I'm also iffy on the engraving in the middle as well. Perhaps it could replace the Cannonkeys logo (which I think is completely fine as is) but IMHO it would be best incorporated into the brass weight, opposed to looking more of an afterthought on a gorgeous case.Definitely would look better if it replaced the Cannonkeys logo, or even if it was placed on the underside or the top side
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The engraving in the middle gives the drawing of the constellation using the "stars" RGBs. There will be RGBs in every vertix of the constellation, that is, every star will have an RGB LED and the engraving in the middle connects them.
As for the CK logo, unfortunately Upas has made his decision and it stays. I respect his position.
Cool, looking forward to the final product. Any final design changes in mind before the GB? How are the logistics (in terms of running a small/large run) as well? Your profits are for a good cause, so I am ready to allocate the funds for a couple of gifts down the line.
Post by: ACF101015 on Sat, 26 September 2020, 21:02:03
Post by: Wamuu on Sun, 27 September 2020, 14:09:48
Post by: emperact on Thu, 01 October 2020, 01:01:50
Post by: lakeboredom on Thu, 01 October 2020, 03:43:33
Post by: Scriba on Thu, 01 October 2020, 05:00:12
Still looking forward to this layout, but the old case design was more pleasing to my eye. It had a more professional look, despite the imbalance of sharp and rounded parts which I believe was the complaint that resulted in the new design. We got exactly what we asked for though, I'll give you that. It's definitely more rounded and evolved. But almost.. too evolved, too many curves, too natural and unnatural (for a kb). This may as well be a poem though, I know we aren't going to get a third design.
agreed, it looks somehow like a cheap plastic ergo keeb that I can buy in every store.
Post by: danieljgrouse on Thu, 01 October 2020, 05:54:11
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 01 October 2020, 08:55:19
Still looking forward to this layout, but the old case design was more pleasing to my eye. It had a more professional look, despite the imbalance of sharp and rounded parts which I believe was the complaint that resulted in the new design. We got exactly what we asked for though, I'll give you that. It's definitely more rounded and evolved. But almost.. too evolved, too many curves, too natural and unnatural (for a kb). This may as well be a poem though, I know we aren't going to get a third design.
agreed, it looks somehow like a cheap plastic ergo keeb that I can buy in every store.
Might I suggest you simply don't buy it?
Post by: kevchigga on Thu, 01 October 2020, 12:17:54
Post by: basedRNC on Thu, 01 October 2020, 12:19:45
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: lakeboredom on Thu, 01 October 2020, 12:56:52
I'll take his.Still looking forward to this layout, but the old case design was more pleasing to my eye. It had a more professional look, despite the imbalance of sharp and rounded parts which I believe was the complaint that resulted in the new design. We got exactly what we asked for though, I'll give you that. It's definitely more rounded and evolved. But almost.. too evolved, too many curves, too natural and unnatural (for a kb). This may as well be a poem though, I know we aren't going to get a third design.
agreed, it looks somehow like a cheap plastic ergo keeb that I can buy in every store.
Might I suggest you simply don't buy it?
Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 01 October 2020, 16:11:00
I'm digging the new case design a lot more, but I'm also iffy on the engraving in the middle as well. Perhaps it could replace the Cannonkeys logo (which I think is completely fine as is) but IMHO it would be best incorporated into the brass weight, opposed to looking more of an afterthought on a gorgeous case.The engraving right in the middle is a bit too much for me, but the shape and everything else is great!
Sent from my IN2023 using TapatalkI'm digging the new case design a lot more, but I'm also iffy on the engraving in the middle as well. Perhaps it could replace the Cannonkeys logo (which I think is completely fine as is) but IMHO it would be best incorporated into the brass weight, opposed to looking more of an afterthought on a gorgeous case.Definitely would look better if it replaced the Cannonkeys logo, or even if it was placed on the underside or the top side
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The engraving in the middle gives the drawing of the constellation using the "stars" RGBs. There will be RGBs in every vertix of the constellation, that is, every star will have an RGB LED and the engraving in the middle connects them.
As for the CK logo, unfortunately Upas has made his decision and it stays. I respect his position.
Cool, looking forward to the final product. Any final design changes in mind before the GB? How are the logistics (in terms of running a small/large run) as well? Your profits are for a good cause, so I am ready to allocate the funds for a couple of gifts down the line.
PCB is pretty much done and we are just waiting on new case/plate prototypes. Once Upas gets those himself and takes some eye candy pictures I'll post them here. The only changes we are envisioning are eventual prototype fixes.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 01 October 2020, 16:12:56
Still looking forward to this layout, but the old case design was more pleasing to my eye. It had a more professional look, despite the imbalance of sharp and rounded parts which I believe was the complaint that resulted in the new design. We got exactly what we asked for though, I'll give you that. It's definitely more rounded and evolved. But almost.. too evolved, too many curves, too natural and unnatural (for a kb). This may as well be a poem though, I know we aren't going to get a third design.
woah the case design is completely redesigned. if I was forced to pick, I would choose the first case design for the straighter edges, though. the top contour in this redesign is really good, but the bottom curves and margins are not quite there for me.
By the way, thanks for stating this in a civil manner guys.
This is how you convey feedback: "I don't like this for that or this reason and I find that idea better for these reasons".
As much as the case goes, we are sticking to the new design. It simply wouldn't make sense to just ditch it after all we've been through to get it done.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 01 October 2020, 16:13:35
Any chance of a polycarb case?
That's on Upas. If he thinks it's doable I'm all for it.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 02 October 2020, 00:52:17
So so so so so so so so ready for this GB to happen! Any ETA?
We should release a GB date once prototypes are approved
Post by: Mistah on Fri, 02 October 2020, 09:32:59
The constellation when lit up is going to look so good. Does VIA support the addition of custom lighting patterns? Might be a cool idea to have some built-in unique patterns that would really bring it to life.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 02 October 2020, 13:24:47
Gondo, you're never going to be able to please everyone, don't worry. You and Upas listened to feedback from the IC overwhelmingly supporting the curved design philosophy, but there are bound do be people on both ends of the preference. The beauty of this hobby is that someone else could make something closer to your prototype case in the future. I think sticking to your most unique and innovative version of the product is the only choice, especially after you guys have worked so hard. On first glance, I preferred the original, but now I greatly prefer the new one. And I like it more every time I look at it. I'm in
The constellation when lit up is going to look so good. Does VIA support the addition of custom lighting patterns? Might be a cool idea to have some built-in unique patterns that would really bring it to life.
To be fair I don't mind people saying they dislike Sagittarius or the new case design. At all. First because I am confident enough to know this is an innovative contribution to the community and I am very proud of it and of its history. Second because there were several people here that gave legitimate criticism, because they legitimately want this keyboard to be the best it can be. We loved it and even took the case criticism and Upas redesigned it. In my opinion the new case is amazing (I mean literally, it amazes me when I look at it) and it looks just like me and Tom envisioned it when we understood what Sagittarius was becoming. The new Sagittarius case is exactly what our "artist's conception" of the keyboard was, we just didn't have the know-how in design to do it. Upas does, and he did it. I consider him an integral part of the keyboard design just like me and Tom were. As far as old versus new case, the old case design and the new have different design philosophies and are quite different on what they are trying to look like, so it's only natural some people would prefer one over the other. Several people have approached me, some of them in this very thread, to convey reasons and criticism. I read those with love and grattitude because I know they like the keyboard and just want to give feedback. But even more importantly than that, I take those criticisms with the respect of a designer towards his audience (or "consumers" or "community" or whatever term you want to use for the very people that are putting their hard-earned money into this). I'm not looking for money, recognition, I'm not even looking to please. All I want is to use my skillset to improve this community grow healthy by keeping this hobby fresh and interesting, having the most people enjoy my inventions and being able to have a good time. That is what being a good designer is.
Ultimately, I'm also aware that, as you said, I can't please everyone. If you decide to back this project up, I am forever grateful and I will try my best to give you the best experience you possibly could have with this keyboard; in the name of Tom's and Sam's family I also thank you with the most blissful of feelings. If you decide this is not your cup of tea, have a good day and I hope the wonderful body of designers we have is able to come up with something that keeps you interested in keyboards and engaged in our community.
What grinds my gears are people that don't know how to convey criticism or just want to say hurtful things. When someone comes to my thread, in public, and tells me straight up the design looks like a common keyboard or a "toy" with such gratuitous intention, after all Upas, I and Tom have been through, I'm not taking that no sir. I'm responding to it. Either be respectful and have a positive attitude, or be a jerk somewhere else. If you want to be a jerk, have the decency or at least the common goddamn courtesy to be a jerk in private. If you take that kind of behavior towards me in public, in my face, I will take it personally and I will respond. Not violently, not with bad words.
It just galls me to my core that whenever I want to bring something new I get flack for the most stupid reasons. I used to take that lightly and just let it pass. Not anymore.
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Sat, 03 October 2020, 00:08:04
So in my view, as somebody who hasn’t built a keyboard yet, if you are going to say it’s bad, you need to give your reasoning. And if you’re going to be rude (which you really shouldn’t be), then you’d better back it up with good reasoning.
It winds me up if people give really cutting criticism without backing it up with reasoning. (And I may react a bit too much.)
Do I understand that right? Is there a central way to make the purpose of an IC obvious to newcomers?
I have seen your chat with TopClack on toxicity in the community, but that was a long chat, maybe newcomers tuned out when they didn’t see keyboard porn...
Post by: Wamuu on Sun, 04 October 2020, 20:39:05
Post by: Gondolindrim on Mon, 05 October 2020, 05:38:12
Hey man, just wanted to tell you I still think the board looks awesome and I'm very happy and pleased with the way you've handled everything. One question, is the board still going to have the three optional rotary encoders on the left side? Also if so, how will the knobs that go with it potentially look if the holes in the plate are square shaped?
Glad you like it!
The encoders are a little bit of a problem. We were expecting that the encoder matrix feature that allows QMK to support multiple simultaneous encoders would be merged by now, but apparently this is not going to happen because the way Jack implemented it does not work with the AVR platform: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pull/7209
So we are considering reducing the encoder support to a single one.
As for the encoder looks, there is really nothing that can be done for the square cutout. Doesn't make sense to use a round cutout and kill a position that could be used for a switch just so that it looks better with encoder.
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Tue, 06 October 2020, 02:51:34
Might there be another round if the demand is sufficient?
I'll see whether I can win the sticker this time around. >:D (Sorry Upas!) I'll happily lose this raffle. Unless, of course, I'm blindingly lucky and I actually win a slot. However I suspect I might have used up my luck by winning a J-01 rev1, and now the law of averages will reassert itself.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Tue, 06 October 2020, 08:52:22
Hi Gondo, this will still be a GB, not sold as in-stock, right? The OP mentions GB a few times. (I think Gok's tented Alice might be in-stock.)
Might there be another round if the demand is sufficient?
I'll see whether I can win the sticker this time around. >:D (Sorry Upas!) I'll happily lose this raffle. Unless, of course, I'm blindingly lucky and I actually win a slot. However I suspect I might have used up my luck by winning a J-01 rev1, and now the law of averages will reassert itself.
I think we are still envisioning a Group Buy for the selling method yes; if there is enough demand I'm sure Upas can do another round later, as he has already done that with the Satisfaction75 and the Brutalist series.
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Tue, 06 October 2020, 14:42:37
I think we are still envisioning a Group Buy for the selling method yes; if there is enough demand I'm sure Upas can do another round later, as he has already done that with the Satisfaction75 and the Brutalist series.
Great, thanks! Good luck with the arrangements. This is something special and innovative, as I’ve said before.
Post by: Wamuu on Wed, 07 October 2020, 11:05:26
Hey man, just wanted to tell you I still think the board looks awesome and I'm very happy and pleased with the way you've handled everything. One question, is the board still going to have the three optional rotary encoders on the left side? Also if so, how will the knobs that go with it potentially look if the holes in the plate are square shaped?
Glad you like it!
The encoders are a little bit of a problem. We were expecting that the encoder matrix feature that allows QMK to support multiple simultaneous encoders would be merged by now, but apparently this is not going to happen because the way Jack implemented it does not work with the AVR platform: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pull/7209
So we are considering reducing the encoder support to a single one.
Aah I see. My dream with this board was to configure the 3 rotary encoders to adjust the volume of different sound channels. Think one encoder for discord chat volume, one for game volume, and the other for music volume. It would have made an insane feature for streaming!!!!!!! So yeah that was my plan. Too bad to see that it probably won't come to light now. However I don't believe that would stop me from purchasing the board.
Post by: dmatx1 on Wed, 07 October 2020, 11:24:42
Aah I see. My dream with this board was to configure the 3 rotary encoders to adjust the volume of different sound channels. Think one encoder for discord chat volume, one for game volume, and the other for music volume. It would have made an insane feature for streaming!!!!!!! So yeah that was my plan. Too bad to see that it probably won't come to light now. However I don't believe that would stop me from purchasing the board.Rotating the encoder: discord chat volume
Rotating the encoder while holding down the button below it: game volume
Rotating the encoder while holding down the second button below it: music volume
Holding down the bottom button: mic muting (it can be really badass if you use MX Lock switch for this key)
These features require lots of custom implementation on the OS also.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Wed, 07 October 2020, 11:43:26
Hey man, just wanted to tell you I still think the board looks awesome and I'm very happy and pleased with the way you've handled everything. One question, is the board still going to have the three optional rotary encoders on the left side? Also if so, how will the knobs that go with it potentially look if the holes in the plate are square shaped?
Glad you like it!
The encoders are a little bit of a problem. We were expecting that the encoder matrix feature that allows QMK to support multiple simultaneous encoders would be merged by now, but apparently this is not going to happen because the way Jack implemented it does not work with the AVR platform: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/pull/7209
So we are considering reducing the encoder support to a single one.
Aah I see. My dream with this board was to configure the 3 rotary encoders to adjust the volume of different sound channels. Think one encoder for discord chat volume, one for game volume, and the other for music volume. It would have made an insane feature for streaming!!!!!!! So yeah that was my plan. Too bad to see that it probably won't come to light now. However I don't believe that would stop me from purchasing the board.
The problem here is that the way that USB HID volume control works is through system-wide increments. Some people ask me why we can't have potentiometers controlling the computer volume through the microcontroller's ADC. That's because absolute volume control is not a thing in the HID API, and I think the closest we have is MIDI control. That's why we use rotary encoders, because they are exactly made to register increments, that is, level increasing/decreasing in steps as we know it on computers. Also the HID API gives no way to control applications individually.
As far as I know that is intentional as having your mouse or keyboard work differently for different applications would become a support and development nightmare. I could be wrong though, I know Linux fairly well but Windows not so much and Mac even less. Most Linux human interface APIs and drivers are written to mimick what Windows and Mac do because it wouldn't make sense to have Linux do otherwise -- no one wants to buy a different keyboard for each operational system they try. That's not to say someone hasn't tried to work around this. I know TempleOS tried something in the sense of allowing more functionalities for the peripheral devices, but I didn't research deep into it.
All of those features can however be done if we can implement a host application on the computer that talks to the MCU and "bypasses" the HID API limitations by controlling volume or whatever through a dedicated service in the operational system. That's what the OEM (Corsair, Razer, Logitech) fancy GUI applications do, and that's what those Stream Deck devices do. The problem with developing that kind of thing is, well... It's not easy to do and takes a lot of time. We are only now seeing stuff like VIA that is a godsend when it comes to user friendliness and a real breakthrough in the community, but still can't work as a host application for HID. I don't know if there is an initiative on the community to do this; I know that Project Aurora is the only open-source initiative so far that does something in this sense.
TLDR: it's hella difficult and requires deep knowledge in the inner workings of operational systems to make features work for all OSs uniformly
Post by: shadowcelery on Wed, 07 October 2020, 11:49:40
Post by: Gondolindrim on Wed, 07 October 2020, 11:54:01
Interesting layout, I wonder how this competes with the conventional Alice layout because spacing between keys is vastly different. Awesome work!
Just for clarification: Sagittarius is not an Alice clone, it's not trying to replace or compete with the Alice, nor is it supposed to be the ultimate ergonomic layout.
That being said, it's only natural that people would compare Sagittarius to Alice. Here goes my particular opinion. For me, Sagittarius does best because as I type I dont need to move my hands much. That is my TLDR take on Sagittarius. The key spacing is meant to leep hands away to that the wrist curvature is maintained more natural.
Post by: KeebOnMe on Wed, 07 October 2020, 11:59:32
Sorry if I missed it elsewhere!
Post by: Gondolindrim on Wed, 07 October 2020, 14:26:29
The new layout looks good, just curious if you had renders of the side or back?
Sorry if I missed it elsewhere!
We don't have glamour shots yet, sorry! Those pictures I leaked to Taeha were from the fab, hence why I didn't post anything here.
Upas should give us some eye-candy pictures when he gets the cases
Post by: lush_bunny on Thu, 08 October 2020, 00:06:51
I have feared the Alice layout for a very long time because I have poor touch typing form (e.g. using the left hand to reach for Y multiple times) but I am looking forward to buying this board. provided all the factors (like money) are favorable when the GB is finally run. Peace! :thumb:
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 08 October 2020, 08:41:25
Hello Gondo. I'm just a quiet little nobody in the custom keeb community, but I need to put it out there: your reputation precedes you. I took the time to read your IC and I am overwhelmed by the amount of effort and intelligence poured into the design of this layout. I am also very sorry for your loss. I appreciate all the changes you and upas implemented in the new case, it certainly speaks to both your qualities.
I have feared the Alice layout for a very long time because I have poor touch typing form (e.g. using the left hand to reach for Y multiple times) but I am looking forward to buying this board. provided all the factors (like money) are favorable when the GB is finally run. Peace! :thumb:
You might be quiet and little my friend, but not nobody. I'm glad you like the IC!
Sagittarius does force you to type in a touch-esque way, so maybe it can help you learn!
Post by: Jacki on Wed, 28 October 2020, 10:15:09
Please ;D
Post by: super_tu on Wed, 28 October 2020, 10:31:21
Post by: dmatx1 on Wed, 28 October 2020, 11:18:42
ISO layout will be an option right?
ISO layout is already (https://imgur.com/kwWbrxh.png) an option.
Post by: Freeaboo on Thu, 29 October 2020, 08:08:35
Post by: augrym on Sat, 31 October 2020, 05:05:59
Do you have discord to stay up to date?
I‘d love to be part of this, looking for a keyboard like this and never really liked alice-boards and love ISO!
Post by: dmatx1 on Sat, 31 October 2020, 05:13:20
Do you have discord to stay up to date?
Join to Cannon Keys' server (http://discord.gg/gAy6sqp).
Post by: Wamuu on Tue, 03 November 2020, 17:27:32
Post by: jack47 on Tue, 03 November 2020, 21:05:38
Post by: Gondolindrim on Tue, 03 November 2020, 21:18:15
Any timeline / ETA for new pictures or a GB?
Do you have discord to stay up to date?
I‘d love to be part of this, looking for a keyboard like this and never really liked alice-boards and love ISO!
Pictures of the new proto were already released: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=107023.msg2961019#msg2961019
Post by: basedRNC on Wed, 04 November 2020, 21:55:04
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: KeebOnMe on Wed, 04 November 2020, 22:03:43
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 05 November 2020, 09:56:57
I’m in. Are we getting close to a GB date?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Any timeline / ETA for new pictures or a GB?
Do you have discord to stay up to date?
I‘d love to be part of this, looking for a keyboard like this and never really liked alice-boards and love ISO!
Any timeline / ETA for new pictures or a GB?
Do you have discord to stay up to date?
I‘d love to be part of this, looking for a keyboard like this and never really liked alice-boards and love ISO!
Pictures of the new proto were already released: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=107023.msg2961019#msg2961019
GB information released on the OP guys!
Post by: andromache on Thu, 05 November 2020, 10:08:17
Post by: basedRNC on Thu, 05 November 2020, 10:22:36
Dates
The Sagittarius keyboard Group Buy will be run in Sagittarius season, of course! From november 21 to december 21 of 2020!
Very awesome, thanks for date updates!
I know you just shared an update, but it'd be helpful to know:
- GB format, will it be using CK's custom checkout system ala. S75, or something else?
- Number of units?
- Expected fulfillment date?
Thanks for all yours & upa's hard work, excited to join the GB.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 05 November 2020, 10:24:04
Dates
The Sagittarius keyboard Group Buy will be run in Sagittarius season, of course! From november 21 to december 21 of 2020!
Very awesome, thanks for date updates!
I know you just shared an update, but it'd be helpful to know:
- GB format, will it be using CK's custom checkout system ala. S75, or something else?
- Number of units?
- Expected fulfillment date?
Thanks for all yours & upa's hard work, excited to join the GB.
We are working in all of those -- I didn't want to just type a lot of "TBDs" haha
I will keep this updated as soon as CK gives me more information
Post by: R3BORN on Thu, 05 November 2020, 16:15:35
Post by: vulk on Thu, 05 November 2020, 18:31:55
Post by: jack47 on Thu, 05 November 2020, 20:40:47
Could you speak to the stretch issue with the index fingers that both Taeha and Minterly spoke about? I'm super excited about this board but can't say I'm not concerned. Is this something you get used to? Is it dependent on hand size, or were they not typing on the board correctly? I love this board but if I am going to have discomfort using it it will be hard for me to justify getting in the GB :/
There is a test sheet available in the main post that you can print and try the layout for yourself. :thumb:
Post by: vulk on Thu, 05 November 2020, 20:50:17
Post by: underling on Fri, 06 November 2020, 02:15:39
So getting one will be similar to the satisfaction75 group buy format?
Post by: lush_bunny on Fri, 06 November 2020, 06:38:28
Post by: prognostics on Fri, 06 November 2020, 07:30:15
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 06 November 2020, 08:38:29
Could you speak to the stretch issue with the index fingers that both Taeha and Minterly spoke about? I'm super excited about this board but can't say I'm not concerned. Is this something you get used to? Is it dependent on hand size, or were they not typing on the board correctly? I love this board but if I am going to have discomfort using it it will be hard for me to justify getting in the GB :/
To be honest there is nothing I can speak -- they voiced their opinions and it would be kind of hypocritical of me to criticize their opinions given the amount of exposure they have given this board. All I can say is that they have used the layout for literally less than ten minutes and I don't see how that can be taken as a testament of the layout being bad. Both of them said that with some more time they could have gotten used to it and after a week or so of use their opinions might change. This layout was engineered to defy the current layout and some work will be needed to get used to it.
Ultimately you can use the test sheets and use the layout yourself!
Post by: nihonjam on Fri, 06 November 2020, 09:16:17
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 06 November 2020, 09:36:26
I'm pretty much still a newb to this hobby. but I was all excited reading the OP until I reached "cannon keys" part.
So getting one will be similar to the satisfaction75 group buy format?
Most probably yes.
Was planning on picking this up but am hesitant because it's on CK. Beautiful board but I will be passing.
As much as I respect your vote-with-your-wallet decision as a consumer, I will take some time to say this type of comment leaves a weird bitter taste in my mouth.
The whole S75 fiasco was about the checkout system, the website, and not some horrible thing CK did. They didn't scam anyone, they didn't steal money. They designed a flawed checkout system, and that was bad. Yeah, CK made a mistake with that checkout system, they didn't test it properly and it exploded when the stampede of the community tried to get an S75. Yet CK tried to mitigate the error by posponing the whole thing and stretching the number of units to 1200. Was it the best solution? I can't say, I am not in the CK team and I don't know the circumstances behind the whole thing. But let's rationalize for a bit. Had Upas delayed the S75 GB for a week, there would be drama because some people woke up in the middle of the night to get into the GB and they felt disrespected. Had he not postponed it there would be drama because he did nothing. At this point it's a game he can't win and he was forced to make a judgement call.
At the end of the day there isn't enough keyboards for everyone and we are delivering systems to select who gets one and who doesn't. Most of people won't get the keyboard and will be frustrated. For instance, I've been in this community since 2013 and I have entered literally every Keycult raffle there was, and I have never gotten a single wrist wrest to speak for it, and still you don't see me screaming around Keycult are bad. If you are going to rebate that by saying that their checkout system is better than CK's, I'll let you know that Keycult's system is new and they had the very same problems CK is having right now. The way money works to filter out buyers is regulating price; if you have more demand than you can take, you raise prices and the amount of people buying dwindles. That's economy 101. And even then the designers in this community choose to deliver raffle/FCFS or whatever systems to keep the keyboards at a reasonable price instead of raising prices. We can discuss which system is more fair, or easier on the consumer. But at the end of the day, these systems are a way of selecting buyers instead of raising prices. Don't you think Keycult would still sell their keyboards if they doubled the prices? Or CK for that matter? I would wager that S75R2 would still sell out at 1k USD a unit.
One thing I can say though is that I know from first hand experience that the average member of this community does not know how to voice opinions and often mistake criticism for toxicity. This seemingly common practice creates a poopoo environment that legitimates very sick people to harass and threat designers and vendors. I also can say that the amounts of stress that this community can get you into, specially when hundreds of thousands of dollars are at stake, is enough to keep you away from months and never want back. Why do you think I am not offering commissions anymore? Because these days I get messages like this on a daily basis:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/393396388282761219/758161772867485706/unknown.png)
Can you imagine the tone of the messages Upas and Ana might have received? Regarding Sagittarius, I have seend comments on several Discord channels of people saying that Tom was a character I invented to garner the community's empathy towards this project. Can you imagine how that made me feel?
Now let us compare the S75 issues with our community's history. We had stories in this community of designers literally getting everyone's money and leading away with nothing to say about it, we had designers stealing ideas from other ones and trying to run a GB on their stolen idea before the original, we had designers deliver a product worlds-away different that what was advertised, we had designers deliver sub-par products that were hyped the crap out of. And I have never seen them get this amount of toxicity. Most of them are still out there, some run stores/companies. The tone of the reddit threads, the Discord messages or the GH comments like these make it look like CK murdered a child in cold blood. The S75 GB was swarming with people because of a single reason: CK designs awesome boards, delivers them with a very rigid quality control and has never failed at that.
I am saying all of this because enough is enough. I have kept my opinions to myself, but I want to take this to publicly state that the overall reaction to the whole S75 thing although not unfounded has been blown way out of proportion in my opinion and the way this has spilled onto Sagittarius is asinine. I have got tens of people in my Discord DMs saying I should take Sagittarius to other vendors, because CK is bad, and that they won't buy it if it is run through CK. I have vendors messaging me about throwing Upas under the bus and that they'd give me money for running this keyboard with them. This is the wretched hive of scum and villany this hobby has turned into. The fact that people think I value money over the faith I have in Upas makes me vomit. For these reasons, and at the risk of sounding arrogant, I say: the tone of your comment, "I think this keyboard is nice but I am going to emotionally blackmail you with my money for small reasons" has zero effect on me or my decisions as I get messages hundred times worse than yours daily.
I want also to publicly state that Upas is the best person I have ever worked with in this community, and were it not for him and the exposure he got me and the commissions I got from that exposure, I wouldn't be able to finish my MsC since I lost my job. I also would not have been able to help my family's friend to bury him with dignity. He was patient and careful when I was at my worst and it is due to him, and him only, that I still design keyboards. If you don't believe his word, believe mine: CK are good intentioned people that love this hobby and want to deliver good keyboards. They are not scammers, they are not liars.
So getting back to your comment, and apologizing for venting on you, I want to say this is not personal as I don't even know you. But if you think this keyboard is worth your money, buy it. If it's not your thing, don't. Either way stop the attitude. It does not help anyone, it is not making more keyboards, and it only empowers truly bad people like the wannabe-my-brother-inlaw in the image to harass and disorient designers. If anything it is riving away good designers that could be designing more awesome stuff, and yet they see all the crap and think twice. It also stops our designers from interacting with the community. Some people complain that the designers don't linger around social media much. Why would they?
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Fri, 06 November 2020, 10:21:19
As much as I respect your vote-with-your-wallet decision as a consumer, I will take some time to say this type of comment leaves a weird bitter taste in my mouth.
Wow, that message you linked to (not the guy you’re speaking to in the quote) is offensive. I would even say criminally offensive.
I used the new CK checkout for the Andromeda order, which is small compared to S75, but still fairly big by the standards or a year or two ago, and it worked fine.
I’m not sure whether they could have load tested it more, but that’s not always possible.
I will buy from CK again.
Post by: prognostics on Fri, 06 November 2020, 10:40:31
I'm pretty much still a newb to this hobby. but I was all excited reading the OP until I reached "cannon keys" part.
So getting one will be similar to the satisfaction75 group buy format?
Most probably yes.Was planning on picking this up but am hesitant because it's on CK. Beautiful board but I will be passing.
As much as I respect your vote-with-your-wallet decision as a consumer, I will take some time to say this type of comment leaves a weird bitter taste in my mouth.
...
One thing I can say though is that I know from first hand experience that the average member of this community does not know how to voice opinions and often mistake criticism for toxicity.
...
I am saying all of this because enough is enough. I have kept my opinions to myself, except when asked, but I want to take this to publicly state that the overall reaction to the whole S75 thing has been unfounded in my opinion and the way this has spilled onto Sagittarius is asinine. ... I want also to publicly state that Upas is the best person I have ever worked with in this community
So getting back to your comment, and apologizing for venting on you, I want to say this is not personal as I don't even know you. But if you think this keyboard is worth your money, buy it. If it's not your thing, don't.
I tried to highlight your main points, at least the ones I wanted to address - Your take here is completely transparent and has made me rethink about my stance on CK. I agree that I was asking for it by stating my comment on your thread.
My concern with buying from CK, and why I want to vote with my wallet, is due to how they presented themselves during the Sat75 process. Maybe having direct contact to the CK employees through Discord is too much access for the community. There was no owning up to the failure, only blame, which lowered consumer confidence. As you pointed out, they didn't do anything awful like stealing designs or money. I think you, Gondolindrim, and the Iron180 runner are going to get the most grief since you are the designers of the releases right after the Sat75.
I have the GMK Red Dragon order coming through CK and see that as an opportunity for CK to prove themselves. Their next drops definitely are - no shame in making a mistake but only in making that mistake again. I appreciate your input and for sharing your positive experiences with CK. It's too easy to get caught up in the angry mob.
Lastly, I applaud the level of interaction you have with the community and apologize if I made you not want to keep that going forward. Beautiful design.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 06 November 2020, 10:43:36
I'm pretty much still a newb to this hobby. but I was all excited reading the OP until I reached "cannon keys" part.
So getting one will be similar to the satisfaction75 group buy format?
Most probably yes.Was planning on picking this up but am hesitant because it's on CK. Beautiful board but I will be passing.
As much as I respect your vote-with-your-wallet decision as a consumer, I will take some time to say this type of comment leaves a weird bitter taste in my mouth.
...
One thing I can say though is that I know from first hand experience that the average member of this community does not know how to voice opinions and often mistake criticism for toxicity.
...
I am saying all of this because enough is enough. I have kept my opinions to myself, except when asked, but I want to take this to publicly state that the overall reaction to the whole S75 thing has been unfounded in my opinion and the way this has spilled onto Sagittarius is asinine. ... I want also to publicly state that Upas is the best person I have ever worked with in this community
So getting back to your comment, and apologizing for venting on you, I want to say this is not personal as I don't even know you. But if you think this keyboard is worth your money, buy it. If it's not your thing, don't.
I tried to highlight your main points, at least the ones I wanted to address - Your take here is completely transparent and has made me rethink about my stance on CK. I agree that I was asking for it by stating my comment on your thread.
My concern with buying from CK, and why I want to vote with my wallet, is due to how they presented themselves during the Sat75 process. Maybe having direct contact to the CK employees through Discord is too much access for the community. There was no owning up to the failure, only blame, which lowered consumer confidence. As you pointed out, they didn't do anything awful like stealing designs or money. I think you, Gondolindrim, and the Iron180 runner are going to get the most grief since you are the designers of the releases right after the Sat75.
I have the GMK Red Dragon order coming through CK and see that as an opportunity for CK to prove themselves. Their next drops definitely are - no shame in making a mistake but only in making that mistake again. I appreciate your input and for sharing your positive experiences with CK. It's too easy to get caught up in the angry mob.
Lastly, I applaud the level of interaction you have with the community and apologize if I made you not want to keep that going forward. Beautiful design.
Thank you for this and, then again, I am sorry you were the one I vented on. Had to take it out of my chest.
Post by: lush_bunny on Fri, 06 November 2020, 10:44:12
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 06 November 2020, 10:47:00
I've never bought anything from Cannon Keys. Can anyone explain what's the issue with them?
Mechsondeck made a good stream about it: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/792326916
Post by: prognostics on Fri, 06 November 2020, 10:47:26
I've never bought anything from Cannon Keys. Can anyone explain what's the issue with them?
A significant amount of discord drama due to their checkout system which is similar to sneaker drops, a combination of FCFS and raffle.
On a very surface level, the complaints were because of errors in the checkout system delaying the drop then giving people NULL when checking out and for not region locking the drop.
Post by: lush_bunny on Fri, 06 November 2020, 11:02:44
Mechsondeck made a good stream about it: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/792326916
Thanks! I also forgot to ask: will this buy be unlimited? I plan to buy well into December.
A significant amount of discord drama due to their checkout system which is similar to sneaker drops, a combination of FCFS and raffle.
On a very surface level, the complaints were because of errors in the checkout system delaying the drop then giving people NULL when checking out and for not region locking the drop.
I don't much into the sneakers scene, but I assume it has a bad name because of flipping? And regarding the null/delays, I really hope doesn't happen again.
Post by: underling on Fri, 06 November 2020, 17:45:07
I'm pretty much still a newb to this hobby. but I was all excited reading the OP until I reached "cannon keys" part.
So getting one will be similar to the satisfaction75 group buy format?
Most probably yes.Was planning on picking this up but am hesitant because it's on CK. Beautiful board but I will be passing.
As much as I respect your vote-with-your-wallet decision as a consumer, I will take some time to say this type of comment leaves a weird bitter taste in my mouth.
...[snip]...
So getting back to your comment, and apologizing for venting on you, I want to say this is not personal as I don't even know you. But if you think this keyboard is worth your money, buy it. If it's not your thing, don't. Either way stop the attitude. It does not help anyone, it is not making more keyboards, and it only empowers truly bad people like the wannabe-my-brother-inlaw in the image to harass and disorient designers. If anything it is riving away good designers that could be designing more awesome stuff, and yet they see all the crap and think twice. It also stops our designers from interacting with the community. Some people complain that the designers don't linger around social media much. Why would they?
emphasis mine .. what attitude?
To associate the previous comments about CK's issues and jump to connecting them with incendiary, racist messages received from completely unrelated users, as if to impute the two are related is a deplorable tactic.
anyways, thanks for making my decision easy.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 06 November 2020, 18:15:37
what attitude?
To associate the previous comments about CK's issues and jump to connecting them with incendiary, racist messages received from completely unrelated users, as if to impute the two are related is a deplorable tactic.
I know that the relation between toxicity (ill criticism) and racism seems extreme. What I wanted to mean is: the fact that you are overplaying CK's fault in this whole issue at the same time as no one does near the same level of criticism and toxicity for designers that literally hurt other people by means of stealing and deceiving means you enable legitimately ill-intended trolls to harass and make a toxic environment to designers and the overall community. I am a prime example of how this mechanic works through people feeling validated to send me those kinds of messages. CK also got death threats. All in all that is what makes designers and vendors stay in their ivory tower and not interact with the community.
what attitude?
anyways, thanks for making my decision easy.
The attitude you are having right now. Playing this like a project has an inherent vice in origin due to CK's participation means you are stablishing a moral judgement to an error that was not at all imoral. As I tried to explain, it is my opinion that CK was put in a lose-lose situation due to their mistakes and they had to make a call. You cannot say that they have bad intentions because the mistakes were made with good intention (making a more efficient and convenient checkout system). If your "easy decision" means not buying this board because of CK then I am sorry you feel like this but also grateful for not having you buy this board.
Post by: datfroyodoe on Fri, 06 November 2020, 18:24:09
curious question: why would they need to region lock?I've never bought anything from Cannon Keys. Can anyone explain what's the issue with them?
A significant amount of discord drama due to their checkout system which is similar to sneaker drops, a combination of FCFS and raffle.
On a very surface level, the complaints were because of errors in the checkout system delaying the drop then giving people NULL when checking out and for not region locking the drop.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 06 November 2020, 18:36:06
curious question: why would they need to region lock?I've never bought anything from Cannon Keys. Can anyone explain what's the issue with them?
A significant amount of discord drama due to their checkout system which is similar to sneaker drops, a combination of FCFS and raffle.
On a very surface level, the complaints were because of errors in the checkout system delaying the drop then giving people NULL when checking out and for not region locking the drop.
Beats me -- have to ask them
Post by: Zeelobby on Fri, 06 November 2020, 18:57:42
I think the one exception is when every region has a vendor to supply them, and a proportional supply. Which is kind of tough to determine.
Post by: Zeelobby on Fri, 06 November 2020, 19:05:44
I've never bought anything from Cannon Keys. Can anyone explain what's the issue with them?CK developed a new system, using sneaker like sales queue, in order to combat the two problems vendor sales have right now, bots beating people at FCFS, and multiple entries in raffle. The system is brand new, and written by store owner who vendors part time (as almost all keyboard vendors do). Because of the volume of sales for Sat75, probably the most popular board of the year, the queue software experienced some issues. One due to a new feature, being able to add extras (something the community really likes), and a null error that was an unforseen interaction between between the software and the point of sales that CK uses. Because of this it was delayed, and some people missed out due to rng (which was going to happen anyway).
Anyway, it wasn't a smooth experience, and while many offered suggestions in a calm manor, many were salty AF and threatening the discord team and owners. Because of this there were many bans etc.
That said, the bugs have been resolved, and CK will continue using the queue system because it removes 2 major problems from the community, and gets boards into actual users hands. If flack is caught for it, so be it, but plenty of happy people get boards. Wish the threats weren't a part of the community, but some people just feel entitled to be tools because of anonimity.
Anyway. This isnt relevant to Sagittarius or anything else. Gondos a great pcb designer, and it's going to be an awesome board. Hopefully as many people as possible get to enjoy it.
Post by: tngpq on Fri, 06 November 2020, 22:53:32
curious question: why would they need to region lock?I've never bought anything from Cannon Keys. Can anyone explain what's the issue with them?
A significant amount of discord drama due to their checkout system which is similar to sneaker drops, a combination of FCFS and raffle.
On a very surface level, the complaints were because of errors in the checkout system delaying the drop then giving people NULL when checking out and for not region locking the drop.
Beats me -- have to ask them
It's because ilumkb who was the Asian proxy for Sat75 drop region locked NA out of the drop for the first 12 hours. ilumkb listened to the non-NA customers and offered that. Of course, it sold out in 5 minutes. But ilumkb also had people complaining about the hiccups in the drop for the Sat75 link not showing up on the GB page but had to be searched.
Post by: Zeelobby on Fri, 06 November 2020, 23:50:30
Yup. Turns out we're all just human. Luis a good dude.curious question: why would they need to region lock?I've never bought anything from Cannon Keys. Can anyone explain what's the issue with them?
A significant amount of discord drama due to their checkout system which is similar to sneaker drops, a combination of FCFS and raffle.
On a very surface level, the complaints were because of errors in the checkout system delaying the drop then giving people NULL when checking out and for not region locking the drop.
Beats me -- have to ask them
It's because ilumkb who was the Asian proxy for Sat75 drop region locked NA out of the drop for the first 12 hours. ilumkb listened to the non-NA customers and offered that. Of course, it sold out in 5 minutes. But ilumkb also had people complaining about the hiccups in the drop for the Sat75 link not showing up on the GB page but had to be searched.
Post by: ellw on Sat, 07 November 2020, 00:41:05
I'm a longtime lurker on GH - visit once in a while to keep track on upcoming group buys, but I've never really bothered to register and post comments and all.
Until now.
I just wanted to say, I'm really really looking forward to this board. My ideal layout is ergo with arrows, which is why Alice and its multitude of clones doesn't really work for me. I'm so pleased to have finally found this board and I am hopeful of successfully being able to order one at group buy!!
I hope the trolls and other naysayers don't affect you too much or get under your skin. The anonymity of the Internet seems to empower people to a level of toxicity far beyond what they would otherwise be at, and I generally ignore them though that might not work for you. Anyway I hope my comments are helpful and keep up the good work!
Post by: R3BORN on Sat, 07 November 2020, 00:51:21
Post by: underling on Sat, 07 November 2020, 00:54:06
what attitude?
To associate the previous comments about CK's issues and jump to connecting them with incendiary, racist messages received from completely unrelated users, as if to impute the two are related is a deplorable tactic.
I know that the relation between toxicity (ill criticism) and racism seems extreme. What I wanted to mean is: the fact that you are overplaying CK's fault in this whole issue at the same time as no one does near the same level of criticism and toxicity for designers that literally hurt other people by means of stealing and deceiving means you enable legitimately ill-intended trolls to harass and make a toxic environment to designers and the overall community.
It doesn't seem extreme - it is extreme. Your response was not only outsized relative to any sort of offence, but quite transparently you used it only to grind an axe along with a plaintive, emotional tactic to gaslight anyone who may not like the CK buy system - or any of the other topics you choose to wax on.
But why stop there? Why don't you double down and go ahead and now connect these innocuous comments about how GB at cannon keys may create reluctance for some with freaking DEATH THREATS.
Quote
I am a prime example of how this mechanic works through people feeling validated to send me those kinds of messages. CK also got death threats. All in all that is what makes designers and vendors stay in their ivory tower and not interact with the community.
Oh, check. we got that now too.
Quote
what attitude?
anyways, thanks for making my decision easy.
The attitude you are having right now. Playing this like a project has an inherent vice in origin due to CK's participation means you are stablishing a moral judgement to an error that was not at all imoral. As I tried to explain, it is my opinion that CK was put in a lose-lose situation due to their mistakes and they had to make a call. You cannot say that they have bad intentions because the mistakes were made with good intention (making a more efficient and convenient checkout system).
Only in my original message did I ask if the buying experience would be similar to the satisfaction, since it's being run by CK. You could simply have answered "yes" and I never would have responded again. It's your business who/where you run a GB through. I am relatively new to the hobby, as I self-reported in my question.
My second post and loss of interest has nothing to do with CK. It is your attitude that makes the decision easy.
Going off on your personal rant and associating the two classes of behaviors: (1) respectful, relevant questions or comments about the group buy format and (2) racist/misogynist/abusive direct messages.
"How dare they question ...."
Seems like this response to questions/comments in an IC thread is high-grade arrogance, petulant elitism.
So, to be more clear the reason is not CK, or their checkout system. My reason is you. You are the reason I will not buy, or try to buy, this keyboard.
Quote
If your "easy decision" means not buying this board because of CK then I am sorry you feel like this but also grateful for not having you buy this board.
I can assure you that, in at least equal measure, it's my relief to have avoided it as well.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sat, 07 November 2020, 12:26:15
what attitude?
To associate the previous comments about CK's issues and jump to connecting them with incendiary, racist messages received from completely unrelated users, as if to impute the two are related is a deplorable tactic.
I know that the relation between toxicity (ill criticism) and racism seems extreme. What I wanted to mean is: the fact that you are overplaying CK's fault in this whole issue at the same time as no one does near the same level of criticism and toxicity for designers that literally hurt other people by means of stealing and deceiving means you enable legitimately ill-intended trolls to harass and make a toxic environment to designers and the overall community.
It doesn't seem extreme - it is extreme. Your response was not only outsized relative to any sort of offence, but quite transparently you used it only to grind an axe along with a plaintive, emotional tactic to gaslight anyone who may not like the CK buy system - or any of the other topics you choose to wax on.
But why stop there? Why don't you double down and go ahead and now connect these innocuous comments about how GB at cannon keys may create reluctance for some with freaking DEATH THREATS.
QuoteI am a prime example of how this mechanic works through people feeling validated to send me those kinds of messages. CK also got death threats. All in all that is what makes designers and vendors stay in their ivory tower and not interact with the community.
Oh, check. we got that now too.Quotewhat attitude?
anyways, thanks for making my decision easy.
The attitude you are having right now. Playing this like a project has an inherent vice in origin due to CK's participation means you are stablishing a moral judgement to an error that was not at all imoral. As I tried to explain, it is my opinion that CK was put in a lose-lose situation due to their mistakes and they had to make a call. You cannot say that they have bad intentions because the mistakes were made with good intention (making a more efficient and convenient checkout system).
Only in my original message did I ask if the buying experience would be similar to the satisfaction, since it's being run by CK. You could simply have answered "yes" and I never would have responded again. It's your business who/where you run a GB through. I am relatively new to the hobby, as I self-reported in my question.
My second post and loss of interest has nothing to do with CK. It is your attitude that makes the decision easy.
Going off on your personal rant and associating the two classes of behaviors: (1) respectful, relevant questions or comments about the group buy format and (2) racist/misogynist/abusive direct messages.
"How dare they question ...."
Seems like this response to questions/comments in an IC thread is high-grade arrogance, petulant elitism.
So, to be more clear the reason is not CK, or their checkout system. My reason is you. You are the reason I will not buy, or try to buy, this keyboard.QuoteIf your "easy decision" means not buying this board because of CK then I am sorry you feel like this but also grateful for not having you buy this board.
I can assure you that, in at least equal measure, it's my relief to have avoided it as well.
Not only you didn't understand a single argument I made, you also distorted the whole discussion towads "LEL YOU ARE AN ELITIST".
This that you are doing is not "respectful, relevant questions or comments about the group buy format". Did you read the response? The whole point was, this type of comment is not respectful, nor relevant, misdirected towards the wrong issue, serves only your distorted sense of ego, and it enables racism and toxicity. Not only that, I blatantly stated my response was not personified towards a particular person, but towards this general sentiment that drips from your mouth as you spew this load of poopoo. Learn to read.
Post by: Wamuu on Sun, 08 November 2020, 01:15:39
Also silly question, I can still use any keycap profile with this board yes? Like I'm not restricted to just cherry profile right?
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Sun, 08 November 2020, 03:43:04
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Sun, 08 November 2020, 03:56:03
You and Upas knows more about this than I do, I’m just asking.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sun, 08 November 2020, 11:31:48
Hey so on your gb post you said that one of the colors is red/black. I saw minterly's stream where she build a red prototype but there was no black anywhere on the board. Can you describe what the red/black colorway is supposed to be like please? I recognize I'm being impatient but if you don't feel like answering its all good haha.
Also silly question, I can still use any keycap profile with this board yes? Like I'm not restricted to just cherry profile right?
Hey!
I think that the red/black will be the same as the Chimera65:
(https://i.imgur.com/zbzMcDA.jpg)
I know this doesn't look like the one on minterly's stream, but she said herself that somehow the stream or her camera made the color look more towards orande than it is in real life. I will consult Upas on that one. Let me get back on that
EDIT: Upas confirmed the red and gray colors will not be the same as the Chimera. We will need to wait on the prototype pictures to get a good look at those colors.
EDIT2: again about the colors. The gray and lilac will be similar to the Chimera versions, but the gray will be slighly lighter:
(https://i.imgur.com/Xu05KeM.png)
The red shade will be darker than the prototype one Miterly built, but lighter than the Chimera red I liked before.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sun, 08 November 2020, 11:35:24
The screw holes on the bottom front looked quite close to the edge - what does everyone else think? Are the tolerances still fine for machining? Am I misremembering?
You and Upas knows more about this than I do, I’m just asking.
To be fair I didn't notice that, but since the protos are made I think the tolerances are fine? Also the curved profile makes it a little bit different I guess
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sun, 08 November 2020, 11:39:08
Gondo, could you please at some point update the original post with pics / renders of the new design? I’d like to have a central, quickly accessible place to admire the curves and ponder what other boards I should abandon for this.
Did it! We unfortunately don't have many pictures, as we are waiting for Minterly to take some eye candy ones. I will update the thread ASAP once we have those!
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Sun, 08 November 2020, 12:47:49
The screw holes on the bottom front looked quite close to the edge - what does everyone else think? Are the tolerances still fine for machining? Am I misremembering?
You and Upas knows more about this than I do, I’m just asking.
To be fair I didn't notice that, but since the protos are made I think the tolerances are fine? Also the curved profile makes it a little bit different I guess
Good point, the prototype seems fine. :-) Upas does know more than me, it's not a showstopper.
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Sun, 08 November 2020, 12:48:36
Gondo, could you please at some point update the original post with pics / renders of the new design? I’d like to have a central, quickly accessible place to admire the curves and ponder what other boards I should abandon for this.
Did it! We unfortunately don't have many pictures, as we are waiting for Minterly to take some eye candy ones. I will update the thread ASAP once we have those!
Awesome, thanks!
Post by: Alejo1707 on Sun, 08 November 2020, 14:34:38
Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk
Post by: peachie on Sun, 08 November 2020, 18:32:15
is there a limit on how many Saggittarius will be produced-- and if so, how many??
I've been stalking this project for a while and am completely enamored with the board, so when I came to check today I was somewhat heartbroken to notice you're selling with Cannonkeys. [to clarify, I have no gripes with them as people or a company as a whole], but after the Dissatisfaction75 fiasco last week (in which, despite obsessive compulsive diligence, I never even made it into the back of the QUEUE LMAO) I feel deeply saddened that I probably won't have a chance at getting this awesome keeb, either...
keyboards are one of the few sedentary activities I have left bringing me joy through an extremely tough crisis in my life, is all, so I apologize if I sound a tad dramatic hahah, I just don't want to lose this hobby too to scalpers/bots who jack up prices on mechmarket that I can already barely afford, from a lottery system that never goes my way ; U ;
Post by: lush_bunny on Sun, 08 November 2020, 19:02:55
is there a limit on how many Saggittarius will be produced-- and if so, how many??
Same. I plan to buy this late, hence my concern.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sun, 08 November 2020, 19:28:08
is there a limit on how many Saggittarius will be produced-- and if so, how many??
Same. I plan to buy this late, hence my concern.
I'm sorry to ask something that I'm positive has been answered many many times, but a few quick skims of the thread yielded no answers for me and I'm feeling sick, gross, and positively exhaustive after this weeks round of oncology/cancer treatment. sincerely sorry.
is there a limit on how many Saggittarius will be produced-- and if so, how many??
I've been stalking this project for a while and am completely enamored with the board, so when I came to check today I was somewhat heartbroken to notice you're selling with Cannonkeys. [to clarify, I have no gripes with them as people or a company as a whole], but after the Dissatisfaction75 fiasco last week (in which, despite obsessive compulsive diligence, I never even made it into the back of the QUEUE LMAO) I feel deeply saddened that I probably won't have a chance at getting this awesome keeb, either...
keyboards are one of the few sedentary activities I have left bringing me joy through an extremely tough crisis in my life, is all, so I apologize if I sound a tad dramatic hahah, I just don't want to lose this hobby too to scalpers/bots who jack up prices on mechmarket that I can already barely afford, from a lottery system that never goes my way ; U ;
Well first of all I wish you a swift and good recovery dude. F cancer.
Upas did confirm to be it is going to be limited numbers, but he didn't confirm how many nor the price -- we are still working with the factory on the quotes so neither of both are available yet.
We are working with proxies to deliver it worldwide.
Post by: ellw on Sun, 08 November 2020, 21:11:22
We are working with proxies to deliver it worldwide.
Would be awesome if the Asia proxy could be ilumkb - they've worked with CK on a number of releases already so Upas would be very comfortable working with them, and best of all they're local to me:)
Post by: dmatx1 on Mon, 09 November 2020, 00:14:27
We are working with proxies to deliver it worldwide.
What great news :thumb:
Post by: Mistah on Tue, 10 November 2020, 15:50:37
This case was designed by Upas and intended to sell on CK from the start. Are they supposed to disband the company because of a stressful group buy? Not sure what some people are asking for.
It's super normal to be frustrated, but it's important to stay respectful. Not only is this a project Gondo has worked super hard on, his late friend Tom poured his heart into it. It's tough taking criticism like that when something is super close to heart and the issues aren't really under his control, especially when it's coming at the same time as more malicious stuff.
That said, I personally can't wait! I love how this board tuned out. I'm really excited to see where this takes the ergo community. To my knowledge, this is the largest push towards ergo that premium boards have had since the Alice. Congrats Gondo, I'm super excited :).
Post by: LONGZILLA on Tue, 10 November 2020, 16:30:15
Post by: Gondolindrim on Wed, 11 November 2020, 23:37:23
Let's goooooooo
Post by: vaf1en on Thu, 12 November 2020, 01:24:39
Ok people, GB extras, proxies and dates announced. The US prices are also announced, and we are waiting on our proxy partners to give us their pricing. I'll post these as soon as I get them!Very excited that we are so close to GB. :)
Let's goooooooo
I appreciate Jay (Prototypist) being a big part of the mechanical keyboard scene, but I cannot help feeling a little bothered seeing Prototypist continuously listed as an EU vendor.
The UK voted and as a result brexit happened. A no-deal brexit mind you, meaning those of us actually in the EU (as opposed to the UK that broke out) will have to pay EU taxes when making the purchase in 2020 and then be slapped with import fees on top of taxes all over again when 2021 rolls around with brexit in effect and the keyboard shipping.
Can you or Jay speak to this situation?
Does Jay see himself as a UK or an EU vendor? In the latter case I would assume there has been thoughts on how to avoid mainland EU customers being double taxed (in lag of a better word).
Maybe consider adding an additional EU vendor for future Sag products?
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 12 November 2020, 02:09:16
Ok people, GB extras, proxies and dates announced. The US prices are also announced, and we are waiting on our proxy partners to give us their pricing. I'll post these as soon as I get them!Very excited that we are so close to GB. :)
Let's goooooooo
I appreciate Jay (Prototypist) being a big part of the mechanical keyboard scene, but I cannot help feeling a little bothered seeing Prototypist continuously listed as an EU vendor.
The UK voted and as a result brexit happened. A no-deal brexit mind you, meaning those of us actually in the EU (as opposed to the UK that broke out) will have to pay EU taxes when making the purchase in 2020 and then be slapped with import fees on top of taxes all over again when 2021 rolls around with brexit in effect and the keyboard shipping.
Can you or Jay speak to this situation?
Does Jay see himself as a UK or an EU vendor? In the latter case I would assume there has been thoughts on how to avoid mainland EU customers being double taxed (in lag of a better word).
Maybe consider adding an additional EU vendor for future Sag products?
Please forgive my ignorance but I'm completely oblivious to that situation and honestly I don't know what to say -- I'll convey your question to him
Post by: Jo_hannes on Thu, 12 November 2020, 03:13:31
Best
Johannes
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 12 November 2020, 04:21:42
Here is Jae's response to the matter:
In this instance EU was meant to represent Europe the continent rather than European Union - a small but very important distinction.
Any sale made in 2020 but shipped in 2021 will have VAT collected at the time of sale (and paid to the respective governments as per VAT rules/procedures that currently exist), and will have the VAT invoice in the box clearly showing the sale date, and be also marked as VAT Paid at the time of shipping on the shipping slip.
As such, even if no trade deal is agreed (which is still to be determined) VAT should not be charged again. On the off chance it is, you will be able to reclaim that with the original purchase order as proof following the rules and process in your country.
Of course for non-European Union countries (whether in Europe the continent or worldwide), sales will still be the same as they are on the store today - with no VAT included.
Sales in 2021 depend on what trade deal (or not) is agreed, and could range from VAT being collected as it always has been, or EU customers no longer paying VAT on UK stores, and potentially paying it on import. There is a wide range of outcomes here that its hard to speculate on.
The same also applies in reverse to UK customers where sales are with EU vendors, which is worth keeping in mind.
Post by: Jo_hannes on Thu, 12 November 2020, 04:24:15
Post by: vaf1en on Thu, 12 November 2020, 04:35:03
I now have no qualms purchasing through Prototypist in this transitional period. :)
Post by: konstantin on Thu, 12 November 2020, 07:43:51
Post by: grundlemere on Thu, 12 November 2020, 18:39:38
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Fri, 13 November 2020, 07:02:38
Post by: i luv chuletas on Fri, 13 November 2020, 09:51:35
Good luck to everyone going for one with the ck checkout!
Post by: arq1999 on Fri, 13 November 2020, 11:23:32
Post by: musdem on Sat, 14 November 2020, 15:36:43
Post by: gnho on Sat, 14 November 2020, 22:39:08
Very glad to see the GB is announced but feeling quite dismayed by the quantity. I am sure that there are sensible commercial concerns and I respect the vendor's judgements on this.
Knowing that I probably won't be able to get one because of the low supply, I hope the board will run regularly so I don't have to pay flippers for it.
Thank you for this great work!
Post by: SirKhamenman on Sun, 15 November 2020, 04:20:37
Post by: fitz on Sun, 15 November 2020, 05:47:55
Post by: orpheo on Sun, 15 November 2020, 06:55:39
Post by: ellw on Sun, 15 November 2020, 07:20:19
Congratulations!
Very glad to see the GB is announced but feeling quite dismayed by the quantity. I am sure that there are sensible commercial concerns and I respect the vendor's judgements on this.
Knowing that I probably won't be able to get one because of the low supply, I hope the board will run regularly so I don't have to pay flippers for it.
Thank you for this great work!
I think if they could, all keyboard makers would want their products to have unlimited quantity so everyone who wanted one could get one, unfortunately the reality for many of them is that they are small part time operations. Imagine having to run a store, deal with customer service, do QC, on hundreds of keyboards all in your spare time! So they only make as many as they feel they can handle.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sun, 15 November 2020, 08:08:57
Hey Gondo, you may want to update the OP with photos of the new case design, just so it's easier for people to find, and so that it's more conspicuous what the final board will look like :)
I'm still waiting on those nice pictures unfortunately! But I will update the OP as soon as they arrive
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sun, 15 November 2020, 08:09:58
I assume Canadians have to use CannonKeys to buy?
Indeed man, I know it's not ideal but it's what we could make work
Post by: Ciantha on Sun, 15 November 2020, 09:29:19
As such, even if no trade deal is agreed (which is still to be determined) VAT should not be charged again. On the off chance it is, you will be able to reclaim that with the original purchase order as proof following the rules and process in your country.
I would like to urge everyone who lives in an EU country to verify the above with their local customs and tax agencies.
If we use Sweden as an example the Swedish customs agency states explicitly that if the goods are shipped after 31st of December you will have to pay Swedish VAT even if the goods were ordered and paid for before the 31st1,2.
So you'd pay Swedish VAT (25%) on:
the price of the keyboard (though presumable excluding the previously paid VAT) + shipping + duties (though there shouldn't be any duties assuming it's classified either under hs-code 847160 or 847330)
1In Swedish: https://www.tullverket.se/sv/privat/brexitforprivatpersoner.4.2894757916870c7915c2.html
2In English:
https://www.tullverket.se/en/private/brexitwhatdoesitmeanforprivateindividuals.4.311bf4f016e69d6ea0d8f3.html
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Sun, 15 November 2020, 13:54:27
A new member here in GH. I have been eying for an ergo mech and would really, really love this Sagittarius. Before moving to mech, I used Microsoft ergo keeb as my daily, so I am really digging this Sagittarius since I dont see ergo keebs that often. I checked on Prototypist.net since I am in Europe, but could not see this Sagittarius anymore. Is it really impossible for me to get one? TIA.
I believe that the different proxies / vendors will add pages for these group buy keyboards quite late, sometimes a day beforehand. Am I right Upas / Jae? I don't see a page on CannonKeys for the Sagittarius either.
I don't believe this is out of the ordinary.
Welcome to the community! (From a relative n00b such as myself.)
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sun, 15 November 2020, 19:33:02
The proxies will region lock their GBs.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Sun, 15 November 2020, 19:36:19
A new member here in GH. I have been eying for an ergo mech and would really, really love this Sagittarius. Before moving to mech, I used Microsoft ergo keeb as my daily, so I am really digging this Sagittarius since I dont see ergo keebs that often. I checked on Prototypist.net since I am in Europe, but could not see this Sagittarius anymore. Is it really impossible for me to get one? TIA.
I believe that the different proxies / vendors will add pages for these group buy keyboards quite late, sometimes a day beforehand. Am I right Upas / Jae? I don't see a page on CannonKeys for the Sagittarius either.
I don't believe this is out of the ordinary.
Welcome to the community! (From a relative n00b such as myself.)
Indeed, thei haven't added the pages yet and prolly will a cople days in advance
Post by: Bamboo238 on Mon, 16 November 2020, 03:16:43
Post by: SirKhamenman on Mon, 16 November 2020, 03:19:40
Post by: dmatx1 on Mon, 16 November 2020, 03:59:13
Is there still a spot for this?
The GB hasn't run yet.
The Sagittarius keyboard Group Buy will start in Sagittarius season, of course! Beggining in november 21 until november 27 at 11:59 PM EST.
Ok guys, CannonKeys will open their GB at 11AM EST. Other proxies might vary their times to better attend their regions. I'll post their times here once I have the information.
Post by: SirKhamenman on Mon, 16 November 2020, 09:55:29
Is there still a spot for this?
The GB hasn't run yet.The Sagittarius keyboard Group Buy will start in Sagittarius season, of course! Beggining in november 21 until november 27 at 11:59 PM EST.Ok guys, CannonKeys will open their GB at 11AM EST. Other proxies might vary their times to better attend their regions. I'll post their times here once I have the information.
Post by: CGreat on Mon, 16 November 2020, 16:21:09
The Sagittarius keyboard Group Buy will start in Sagittarius season, of course! Beggining in november 21 until november 27 at 11:59 PM EST.
Gondo, I'm pretty confident this beautiful board won't need 6 days to sell 175 units ;). Hoping i can be one of the lucky ones!
Post by: Gondolindrim on Mon, 16 November 2020, 17:10:04
The Sagittarius keyboard Group Buy will start in Sagittarius season, of course! Beggining in november 21 until november 27 at 11:59 PM EST.
Gondo, I'm pretty confident this beautiful board won't need 6 days to sell 175 units ;). Hoping i can be one of the lucky ones!
You people keep telling me that, yet I persist not to believe this board got so much traction
Post by: paperassgasket on Tue, 17 November 2020, 01:04:55
Post by: FlitzDeelman on Tue, 17 November 2020, 03:28:26
so what are you gonna do with the other 5.99 days after this sells out?Convince Upas for round 2..?!
Post by: Jo_hannes on Tue, 17 November 2020, 04:17:59
I would like to urge everyone who lives in an EU country to verify the above with their local customs and tax agencies.
If we use Sweden as an example the Swedish customs agency states explicitly that if the goods are shipped after 31st of December you will have to pay Swedish VAT even if the goods were ordered and paid for before the 31st1,2.
So you'd pay Swedish VAT (25%) on:
the price of the keyboard (though presumable excluding the previously paid VAT) + shipping + duties
Hi again, Gondo,
Sorry to bother you about this crap again.
With this info (I am located in Sweden), this actually means I would get the double taxation - as even if a trade deal is agreed, as GB does not want to be part of the common market any more, a private person would likely still pay VAT on import, already having paid 20% VAT in GB at the time of the buy. Overall, considering extras (PCB, plate), the loss would be around 130 USD - that is a lot of money, TBH.
As a result, I would much rather buy from Ilum, then I know I pay 25% on import, but only on the original price. Due to region locking, that is not a possibility. With the coming political changes, GB is essentially a region of one and EU seems to be effectively locked out as a result. It's the result of ill-informed populist-fueled political decisions (I know Brazil has its share of those), but they impact people in a very real way.
I know this is not Jae's fault, but I am really at a loss as to how to handle this. Would there be a way to soften the region-locking, as I assume, with this situation, Jae may not sell the assigned units (or there will be lots of salt when people are unknowingly hit with the double tax next year)?
Again, sorry that I couldn't contribute to this in a more meaningful way. So, here goes some feedback: This is an excellent and very interesting project and I admire your dedication to it, and your perseverance. I am also very sorry for your loss, this is a beautiful tribute to a beloved friend.
Have a good one!
Johannes
Post by: lush_bunny on Tue, 17 November 2020, 04:19:40
Post by: dmatx1 on Tue, 17 November 2020, 05:05:47
wait a minute... did the gb date span change? could've sworn I saw this stretch into December :(
Sagittarius sign: November 21 – December 21
Group buy: November 21 - November 27
But tbh the GB end date doesn't matter at all, it will sell out in minutes.
Post by: titisee5 on Tue, 17 November 2020, 06:18:27
I suspect that this is true for all EU countries.As such, even if no trade deal is agreed (which is still to be determined) VAT should not be charged again. On the off chance it is, you will be able to reclaim that with the original purchase order as proof following the rules and process in your country.
I would like to urge everyone who lives in an EU country to verify the above with their local customs and tax agencies.
If we use Sweden as an example the Swedish customs agency states explicitly that if the goods are shipped after 31st of December you will have to pay Swedish VAT even if the goods were ordered and paid for before the 31st1,2.
So you'd pay Swedish VAT (25%) on:
the price of the keyboard (though presumable excluding the previously paid VAT) + shipping + duties (though there shouldn't be any duties assuming it's classified either under hs-code 847160 or 847330)
1In Swedish: https://www.tullverket.se/sv/privat/brexitforprivatpersoner.4.2894757916870c7915c2.html
2In English:
https://www.tullverket.se/en/private/brexitwhatdoesitmeanforprivateindividuals.4.311bf4f016e69d6ea0d8f3.html
However, even after searching for some time, I was unable to find an official source.
But there is a guy on r/brexit who seems to be sure about it: https://www.reddit.com/r/brexit/comments/jv7lwa/selling_into_europe_this_year_but_not_shipping/gci3l0j/
Sent from my POCO F2 Pro using Tapatalk
Post by: LucaLo_ on Tue, 17 November 2020, 08:02:09
Post by: ellw on Tue, 17 November 2020, 10:10:46
I would like to urge everyone who lives in an EU country to verify the above with their local customs and tax agencies.
If we use Sweden as an example the Swedish customs agency states explicitly that if the goods are shipped after 31st of December you will have to pay Swedish VAT even if the goods were ordered and paid for before the 31st1,2.
So you'd pay Swedish VAT (25%) on:
the price of the keyboard (though presumable excluding the previously paid VAT) + shipping + duties
Hi again, Gondo,
Sorry to bother you about this crap again.
With this info (I am located in Sweden), this actually means I would get the double taxation - as even if a trade deal is agreed, as GB does not want to be part of the common market any more, a private person would likely still pay VAT on import, already having paid 20% VAT in GB at the time of the buy. Overall, considering extras (PCB, plate), the loss would be around 130 USD - that is a lot of money, TBH.
As a result, I would much rather buy from Ilum, then I know I pay 25% on import, but only on the original price. Due to region locking, that is not a possibility. With the coming political changes, GB is essentially a region of one and EU seems to be effectively locked out as a result. It's the result of ill-informed populist-fueled political decisions (I know Brazil has its share of those), but they impact people in a very real way.
I know this is not Jae's fault, but I am really at a loss as to how to handle this. Would there be a way to soften the region-locking, as I assume, with this situation, Jae may not sell the assigned units (or there will be lots of salt when people are unknowingly hit with the double tax next year)?
Again, sorry that I couldn't contribute to this in a more meaningful way. So, here goes some feedback: This is an excellent and very interesting project and I admire your dedication to it, and your perseverance. I am also very sorry for your loss, this is a beautiful tribute to a beloved friend.
Have a good one!
Johannes
I have nothing to contribute to the VAT discussion but from past drops (Iron180) Louis (from IlumKB) did say that the region lock was only for the first 5 minutes, and thereafter anyone in the world could purchase. Of course Iron didn't last all of 90 seconds so this was irrelevant, so if Sagittarius makes it in stock past 5 minutes you could probably pick one up from IlumKB.
Post by: WhitePlate on Tue, 17 November 2020, 17:00:04
:thumb:
Post by: paulgali on Wed, 18 November 2020, 11:20:38
Post by: dmatx1 on Wed, 18 November 2020, 11:41:00
I'm a bit concerned that us in the middle east are going to find it hard to buy. We often use shipping proxies globally, is that not an option for the MENA buy?
prototypist.net:
Quote
The Sagittarius Group Buy will go live at 4pm UK time - in alignment with Cannon Keys and will be region locked for Day 1 to Europe and MENA. From Day 2 it will be worldwide if any units remain. Limited to 50 units.
Post by: musdem on Wed, 18 November 2020, 11:45:13
Post by: SirKhamenman on Wed, 18 November 2020, 12:13:27
I'm a bit concerned that us in the middle east are going to find it hard to buy. We often use shipping proxies globally, is that not an option for the MENA buy?
prototypist.net:QuoteThe Sagittarius Group Buy will go live at 4pm UK time - in alignment with Cannon Keys and will be region locked for Day 1 to Europe and MENA. From Day 2 it will be worldwide if any units remain. Limited to 50 units.
Post by: kidpid on Wed, 18 November 2020, 12:30:49
Post by: tryhardicious on Wed, 18 November 2020, 12:32:03
Is the navy color of the revised version shown in Taeha's stream the same navy color as the prototype he built?Yes, see updated initial post.
Post by: dmatx1 on Thu, 19 November 2020, 02:34:02
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Gray / Lilac
Will gray and lilac be the same as on this Chimera 65 (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0238/7342/1376/products/Xu05KeM_1024x1024@2x.png?v=1574476158)?
Post by: orpheo on Thu, 19 November 2020, 06:13:47
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12. GB announcement:p :p
After yesterday's Minterly stream you guys were able to see the new iteration of the case in action with the glorious RGB constellation!
Stream link: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/792335918
Dates
The Sagittarius keyboard Group Buy will start in Sagittarius season, of course! Beggining in november 21 until november 27 at 11:59 PM EST.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 19 November 2020, 07:49:28
I would like to urge everyone who lives in an EU country to verify the above with their local customs and tax agencies.
If we use Sweden as an example the Swedish customs agency states explicitly that if the goods are shipped after 31st of December you will have to pay Swedish VAT even if the goods were ordered and paid for before the 31st1,2.
So you'd pay Swedish VAT (25%) on:
the price of the keyboard (though presumable excluding the previously paid VAT) + shipping + duties
Hi again, Gondo,
Sorry to bother you about this crap again.
With this info (I am located in Sweden), this actually means I would get the double taxation - as even if a trade deal is agreed, as GB does not want to be part of the common market any more, a private person would likely still pay VAT on import, already having paid 20% VAT in GB at the time of the buy. Overall, considering extras (PCB, plate), the loss would be around 130 USD - that is a lot of money, TBH.
As a result, I would much rather buy from Ilum, then I know I pay 25% on import, but only on the original price. Due to region locking, that is not a possibility. With the coming political changes, GB is essentially a region of one and EU seems to be effectively locked out as a result. It's the result of ill-informed populist-fueled political decisions (I know Brazil has its share of those), but they impact people in a very real way.
I know this is not Jae's fault, but I am really at a loss as to how to handle this. Would there be a way to soften the region-locking, as I assume, with this situation, Jae may not sell the assigned units (or there will be lots of salt when people are unknowingly hit with the double tax next year)?
Again, sorry that I couldn't contribute to this in a more meaningful way. So, here goes some feedback: This is an excellent and very interesting project and I admire your dedication to it, and your perseverance. I am also very sorry for your loss, this is a beautiful tribute to a beloved friend.
Have a good one!
Johannes
First of all, I am really sorry about this whole thing and I want to ask you that you be patient with me as I have stumbled upon it just now and honestly I don't know what to make of it.
I will ask Jae to get in here and respond this. No matter what research I do I still can't decisively answer if you will be hit with a double taxation or not. I recommend you reach out to him and ask those things too.
Post by: geewiz on Thu, 19 November 2020, 08:06:40
I will ask Jae to get in here and respond this.
That's probably for the best. At this opportunity, Jae could also announce his pricing, or did I miss something?
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 19 November 2020, 08:36:57
QuoteGray / Lilac
Will gray and lilac be the same as on this Chimera 65 (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0238/7342/1376/products/Xu05KeM_1024x1024@2x.png?v=1574476158)?
IIRC the lilac will be the same, the gray will be a slightly lighter shade
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 19 November 2020, 08:37:19
Is CannonKeys locked to the US only or all of North America. I'm in Canada and am interested in trying to snag a board.
CK will deal with the Americas and US territories
Post by: Mistah on Thu, 19 November 2020, 09:18:06
Post by: Gondolindrim on Thu, 19 November 2020, 10:09:20
Will there be pics of the updated boards before we make our purchase (either here or on the purchase page)?
Yes! GB page should be up soon
Post by: kidpid on Thu, 19 November 2020, 13:06:37
Is the navy color of the revised version shown in Taeha's stream the same navy color as the prototype he built?Yes, see updated initial post.
Yes, I saw that. The reason I ask that question is because the navy on the pictured revised version of the case looks very different from the navy of the original prototype. I'm curious if the navy colors are the same and it's just a lighting difference, or if they are legitimately different.
Post by: tryhardicious on Thu, 19 November 2020, 13:10:40
Didn't want to be mean, just thought you didn't read the thread :)Is the navy color of the revised version shown in Taeha's stream the same navy color as the prototype he built?Yes, see updated initial post.
Yes, I saw that. The reason I ask that question is because the navy on the pictured revised version of the case looks very different from the navy of the original prototype. I'm curious if the navy colors are the same and it's just a lighting difference, or if they are legitimately different.
Post by: kidpid on Thu, 19 November 2020, 13:12:36
Didn't want to be mean, just thought you didn't read the thread :)
Haha, no worries. That wouldn't actually be out of character for me. I should have elaborated on my original question.
Post by: ephemeral25 on Thu, 19 November 2020, 16:15:05
Post by: phxrbn on Thu, 19 November 2020, 16:17:19
Post by: Chungle on Thu, 19 November 2020, 19:24:01
Were pictures of the final colors ever posted?
Gondo said they will be in the GB post which should be posted soon.
Post by: fabijolo on Fri, 20 November 2020, 02:08:58
[attachimg=1]
Were pictures of the final colors ever posted?
Post by: Mistah on Fri, 20 November 2020, 03:15:26
iLumkb actually just revealed them on their page, all of them look really great, but I especially love the Grey-Lilac one. :thumb:
(Attachment Link)Were pictures of the final colors ever posted?
Could you provide a link? I can't seem to find the page for some reason. These pics are kind of rough. The black crush on the blue and black makes it really hard to see. Maybe it's due to how they were exported?
Edit: Daily clack posted here as well https://dailyclack.com/collections/group-buys/products/sagittarius-keyboard-kit?variant=32386931589175
It's the same photos though
Post by: tryhardicious on Fri, 20 November 2020, 04:12:36
Generally I must say I really like this keyboard.
Both design and functionality!
Thanks for the effort you put in.
Post by: vaf1en on Fri, 20 November 2020, 05:28:43
First of all, I am really sorry about this whole thing and I want to ask you that you be patient with me as I have stumbled upon it just now and honestly I don't know what to make of it.Being one of those asking about "double taxation" in the first place, I would like to apologize for the disturbances it has caused. My reply here is a bit long and as such not specific to the Sagittarius GB - I just do not know where else to post this. :blank:
I will ask Jae to get in here and respond this. No matter what research I do I still can't decisively answer if you will be hit with a double taxation or not. I recommend you reach out to him and ask those things too.
I would like to give a small update in regards to how this affects Danish customers.
(I know Denmark is a small country, but it is part of the European Union (EU) and at least the rules seem very similar to the Swedish rules on how brexit is handled from an import tax/customs point of view.)
# Double taxation trouble
Having spoken to the Danish authorities on the matter the following can be said:
- Item ordered and paid for in 2020 -- you pay UK taxes to the vendor at time of purchase *
- Item shipped on or after January 1st 2021 -- you pay import taxes to local authorities
# Shipping is key
The deciding factor in determining whether you will have to pay import taxes is the shipping date and that alone.
- If the order is shipped before January 1st 2021 you will not pay import taxes because the UK is still part of the EU.
- If the order is shipped on or after January 1st 2021 you will pay import taxes (and handling fees) because the UK is no-longer part of the EU.
Let me be clear that this holds true for any order between a UK vendor and an EU customer, it is not restricted in anyway to "our little hobby". But because of the GB nature of being largely a waiting game, this applies to any GB run in 2020 with an expected shipping date in 2021.
# Ease the pain a little?
TL;DR: Ask vendor to refund UK taxes collected at time of purchase.
From the Danish authorities' point of view, the rules are crystal clear on when and how to determine if import taxes must be payed. (They used the term of "goods entering the European Union" which leads me to believe the same rules apply across the EU as such and not just a Danish interpretation.)
It is up to the vendor to refund the UK taxes paid by the customer when placing the order. That is the official statement.
The specifics of how a UK vendor clears this with the UK authorities is unclear to me, but it is abundantly clear to me that the EU is going to collect import taxes based on shipping date and the rest is up to the UK to handle nationally.
* The vendor has to collect these taxes on behalf of the UK/EU authorities and is in no way doing this to annoy anyone - just obeying the rules of trade.
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 20 November 2020, 08:12:12
Hey Gondo, I just read that the included plate doesn't support iso enter. Are the plate files still going to be open sourced?
Generally I must say I really like this keyboard.
Both design and functionality!
Thanks for the effort you put in.
Yes, plate files will be open-sourced!
Post by: Gondolindrim on Fri, 20 November 2020, 08:12:58
Locking this IC thread. Good luck guys!