i like using keyboards that has the keys i actually use and doesn't have the keys i don't ever use
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=105188.msg2877454#msg2877454i like using keyboards that has the keys i actually use and doesn't have the keys i don't ever use
as for portable I can't really answer, I don't go outside
you can type special characters with a 60% the same you would with a full sized keyboard, I'm not quite sure I understand. Unless you're referring to a 40% which doesn't have the dedicated number row.
For myself I can hit every key on a standard 104 full sized using only my left hand as fast or faster than having a dedicated key, using a 60%. Personalized layouts are pretty standard in the keyboard hobby
40s is a whole different story that I couldn't begin to explain, but I fully believe that dedicated 40s users are just as efficient as one would be on a full-sized keyboard if you really wanted to learn it (with the exception of numerical input vs a tenkey)
As for portability, a lot of custom keyboards are extremely heavy so even the physically small keyboards aren't exactly portable. Lots of people are just using them at their home PCs.
When switches cost $1.30 a piece you don't make a keyboard with 120 of them ...I know our priorities are in different places, but I'd so much prefer to spend more money on more and/or better switches than to stick everything in a super-expensive but tiny chassis, plate and brass weight or whatever xD . But that's just me.
When switches cost $1.30 a piece you don't make a keyboard with 120 of them ...
When switches cost $1.30 a piece you don't make a keyboard with 120 of them ...
you can type special characters with a 60% the same you would with a full sized keyboardHow to get Alt codes with TKL?
@HungerMechanic Hey, really good and thoughtful points. Thanks for putting them together.
The way this thread is going is convincing me that portability isn't really a factor when it comes to mech boards. Which is a pity, it would be kind of nice to see more of them about.
you can type special characters with a 60% the same you would with a full sized keyboardHow to get Alt codes with TKL?
you can type special characters with a 60% the same you would with a full sized keyboardHow to get Alt codes with TKL?
i can toggle numrow to send numpad codes
That being said, you're asking on geekhack, and these days the most active commenting crowd leans towards the largest and loudest keyboard they can find.
For ergo/symmetry key B has to be in the middle, but with numpad and arrow keys you won't have enough space to move mouse.
For ergo/symmetry key B has to be in the middle, but with numpad and arrow keys you won't have enough space to move mouse.
I can understand this as a good reason to go tenkeyless (it's the main reason I prefer it for home, where I don't really need the number pad) but smaller than that is diminishing returns as far as desk space goes.
I've been curious about smaller keyboards, but I really think I'd miss the arrow keys more than anything - I use them for all sorts of navigation. I actually have quite a small computer desk, so it might be useful. I use the mouse on the left (despite being right handed) and tend to use the right side for my ipad, phone, notebook etc., so reclaiming that numpad space is useful and ergonomic for me. I can always use my separate USB numpad if I need it. I just wonder if gaining an extra two inches on that side is really going to make much difference. Perhaps there's some value in the idea of not needing to take your fingers of the home row, as a touchtypist - but I guess I could always remap things in Karibiner to emulate that anyway.
They do look kinda cute though.
For ergo/symmetry key B has to be in the middle, but with numpad and arrow keys you won't have enough space to move mouse.
I can understand this as a good reason to go tenkeyless (it's the main reason I prefer it for home, where I don't really need the number pad) but smaller than that is diminishing returns as far as desk space goes.
I've been curious about smaller keyboards, but I really think I'd miss the arrow keys more than anything - I use them for all sorts of navigation. I actually have quite a small computer desk, so it might be useful. I use the mouse on the left (despite being right handed) and tend to use the right side for my ipad, phone, notebook etc., so reclaiming that numpad space is useful and ergonomic for me. I can always use my separate USB numpad if I need it. I just wonder if gaining an extra two inches on that side is really going to make much difference. Perhaps there's some value in the idea of not needing to take your fingers of the home row, as a touchtypist - but I guess I could always remap things in Karibiner to emulate that anyway.
They do look kinda cute though.
For ergo/symmetry key B has to be in the middle, but with numpad and arrow keys you won't have enough space to move mouse.
I can understand this as a good reason to go tenkeyless (it's the main reason I prefer it for home, where I don't really need the number pad) but smaller than that is diminishing returns as far as desk space goes.
I've been curious about smaller keyboards, but I really think I'd miss the arrow keys more than anything - I use them for all sorts of navigation. I actually have quite a small computer desk, so it might be useful. I use the mouse on the left (despite being right handed) and tend to use the right side for my ipad, phone, notebook etc., so reclaiming that numpad space is useful and ergonomic for me. I can always use my separate USB numpad if I need it. I just wonder if gaining an extra two inches on that side is really going to make much difference. Perhaps there's some value in the idea of not needing to take your fingers of the home row, as a touchtypist - but I guess I could always remap things in Karibiner to emulate that anyway.
They do look kinda cute though.
You can retain dedicated arrow keys on something at least as small as a 60%. Your cap options will dwindle though.
You use a touch screen on a tablet ... while sitting right in front of a real computer, with a mechanical keyboard? :eek:
For ergo/symmetry key B has to be in the middle, but with numpad and arrow keys you won't have enough space to move mouse.
I can understand this as a good reason to go tenkeyless (it's the main reason I prefer it for home, where I don't really need the number pad) but smaller than that is diminishing returns as far as desk space goes.
I've been curious about smaller keyboards, but I really think I'd miss the arrow keys more than anything - I use them for all sorts of navigation. I actually have quite a small computer desk, so it might be useful. I use the mouse on the left (despite being right handed) and tend to use the right side for my ipad, phone, notebook etc., so reclaiming that numpad space is useful and ergonomic for me. I can always use my separate USB numpad if I need it. I just wonder if gaining an extra two inches on that side is really going to make much difference. Perhaps there's some value in the idea of not needing to take your fingers of the home row, as a touchtypist - but I guess I could always remap things in Karibiner to emulate that anyway.
They do look kinda cute though.
You can retain dedicated arrow keys on something at least as small as a 60%. Your cap options will dwindle though.
You use a touch screen on a tablet ... while sitting right in front of a real computer, with a mechanical keyboard? :eek:
I make a lot of handwritten notes in my work, and annotate academic papers and so forth. I'm really disorganised with paper, so I bought an iPad Pro with pencil and have gone paperless - syncs straight to my computer too, which is nice.
I mainly used it when I was away from home, but as meetings and so forth have been over Zoom etc. I use it at my desk now. I'd still rather handwrite notes than type, even at my desk. I was on a call and someone had a mechanical keyboard the other day and we had to keep muting her because nobody could hear what anyone else was saying, lol. Pro-tip - don't use a loud, clicky keyboard when videoconferencing. :)
A sixty board healths my carpal tunnel syndrome by making my desktop more ergonomic. Portability? Na. I have one board at work and more at home. Now doing home-office, I use just one daily.
I've noticed a difference going from full size to TKL, but wanted to retain function keys and separated cursor keys. I'm going to move back to a trackball soon, so expect the whole 'mouse hand further away' thing to become moot.
A sixty board healths my carpal tunnel syndrome by making my desktop more ergonomic. Portability? Na. I have one board at work and more at home. Now doing home-office, I use just one daily.
Do you find that a 60 is markedly improved over a TKL? Is it the slightly narrower base, or less reaching for keys?
I've noticed a difference going from full size to TKL, but wanted to retain function keys and separated cursor keys. I'm going to move back to a trackball soon, so expect the whole 'mouse hand further away' thing to become moot.
Hm, another thing that I've noticed which contributes to my wondering whether portable keyboard use has climbed is the current emphasis and availability of Bluetooth connectivity, but I guess this is a totally different topic.
I've noticed a difference going from full size to TKL, but wanted to retain function keys and separated cursor keys. I'm going to move back to a trackball soon, so expect the whole 'mouse hand further away' thing to become moot.
FC660C has dedicated cursor keys. It does work well. HHKB is more difficult, but it is pretty easy to adapt to. Strangely if I think about using the cursor keys it's a lot harder than me just doing it. At this point it is automatic.
I will note, I do not use keys like Pg Up/Pg Dn/Home/End. For whatever reason, they are difficult for me to remember. Most likely because I seldom use them as I have alternative means.
The Boomers here grew up using full size keyboards, and thus prefer them.
The Zoomers here did not grow up using full size keyboards and thus do not prefer them.
There's definitely a generational difference.
When I made the original post, I hadn't really intended to kick of a discussion about fullsize vs everything else, thought it seems to be going that way. Personally, I think that fullsize and TKL are practically the same for most people when it comes to usability- I have noticed that the majority of fullsize keyboard users didn't even use the numpad (though I sorely missed it when moving to TKL).
I was really more interested in whether portability is a major factor behind keyboards these days. The factors were that for sub-TKL, you've got to learn new key locations or rely much more on function layers. And nowadays there seems to be a big deal with Bluetooth connectivity, and I just noticed another group buy for keyboard cases* kicking off yesterday.
So... anyone here actually carry their keyboard around on a regular basis and use it outside the office/home? So far there's a resounding lack of support for portability, but lots of comments about ergonomics or aesthetics.
* The small number of times I've carried a keyboard around with me, I've just wrapped it in a t-shirt. My TKLs take up enough room in my bag, I don't want a padded case making it even bigger. And the bonus of using a t-shirt is that I now have an extra shirt in case I need to get changed :)
Fair enough. But there seems to be higher support for 65% boards in Discord, which is a younger cohort. Full-size is uncommon there.
This seems to be a huge factor, but I wonder if it's true or if it's the feeling. I think it's the feeling, which definitely must be taken into account.
Earlier today I was trying to come up with things to do with all the keys on my 122 key terminal keyboard. I mapped Left F9 to Windows, Left F10 to Context Menu, and Left F8 to Ctrl+Shift+Esc, and that's all I really came up with off the top of my head. Other things could have been done, but the thing is that I already know how to do most of those things with two character keyboard shortcuts, meaning I don't really see the need to map a new key to something occasional. At that point, I almost saw the 40%ers point of view.
On the other hand, I type 90 WPM, which is fine, using a nonstandard typing form and I'm not glued to the homerow. Hence, I have few issues reaching keys. I'm always reaching keys. No problem. I'd rather have more keys so I can do more stuff. I use the F keys. That's how I do spell check. I control my browser with F keys.
Just because we can use the mouse doesn't mean we have to, or indeed that it's better for most usage. Surely, we here on geekhack, when we're done writing a reply, just hit tab then enter, right?
So... anyone here actually carry their keyboard around on a regular basis and use it outside the office/home? So far there's a resounding lack of support for portability, but lots of comments about ergonomics or aesthetics.
Fair enough. But there seems to be higher support for 65% boards in Discord, which is a younger cohort. Full-size is uncommon there.
Full size is pretty uncommon here...there are some people that like it..but for example, how many group buys and custom keyboards are we seeing in full size? Not a lot as far as I can tell..
Yup. how much of that is because there are no alternatives though either? Once something is a trend, it has its own gravity. If there are no good alternatives, then that's what you're going to get if you want any options, regardless of whether or not it was your first choice.
I was baffled about the whole mouse thing too. Clearly anybody who thinks a mouse is a good stand-in for a lot of the keyboard's navigational tricks must not do a lot of data entry.
Yup. How much of that is because there are no alternatives though either? Once something is a trend, it has its own gravity. If there are no good alternatives, then that's what you're going to get if you want any options, regardless of whether or not it was your first choice.
By definition, mechanical boards are old technology. But we use new computing power with mechanical boards. Thus, these should adapt to share space and resources with brand new tech.
TKL is my go to, I use it almost purely for aesthetics though. 60% would be my go to for functionality, as most of the keys I need are macro'd to keep me on the homerow.I was baffled about the whole mouse thing too. Clearly anybody who thinks a mouse is a good stand-in for a lot of the keyboard's navigational tricks must not do a lot of data entry.
I'd say this is true, the norm these days seems to be to learn with the mouse, and I think you have to have a specific need to delve into them (or perhaps friends who guide you). I only really moved to using keyboard shortcuts in the past few years, because I pushed myself to learn VIM. Once I was in the swing of that it sort of pushed me more towards more and more keyboard shortcuts.
Although, in my case vim specifically pushed me towards using smaller keyboards as well. It got me in the habit of wanting to stay on my home row for everything haha.
Yup. How much of that is because there are no alternatives though either? Once something is a trend, it has its own gravity. If there are no good alternatives, then that's what you're going to get if you want any options, regardless of whether or not it was your first choice.
That might contribute but it isn't the reason. If there was enough demand someone would've made it. It isn't like this hasn't been tried...simply do an interest check, if there is enough demand someone will do it. Be vocal about it, polls, etc, etc...
A few years ago there were a number of complaints from a few people about GMK scoops/bars...which was basically there are a number of people who actually prefer bars and adding 2 keys to an overall set wasn't a big ask compared to the number of users that wanted it...vs. all of this other support for 1800, 75%, etc, etc, that actually applied to fewer people...polls started confirming that was at least the general feeling. Now you don't see too many GMK sets that don't include FJ barred as part of the core set.
Given the number of polls on this, I don't think Full is in that much demand...I mean, there is definitely enough for some GBs..but enough to be a common GB? Not so sure. I think the people that actually need a numberpad is relatively small and in the mech community, a good number would've tried 1800 as a good in between or a dedicated numberpad. Even if my role was primarily to crunch numbers I'd seriously consider 1800 or dedicated first...feels excessive but the whole hobby is a bit excessive..
If anything, I would try a TKL or something to see what everybody is saying about moving your hands closer together for gaming. I can't imagine they need to get any closer than that, if I would notice any ergonomic benefit to begin with.I agree, the difference in ergonomics once you've gone to TKL is minimal....you won't be using that extra space going to 60% provides.
I was baffled about the whole mouse thing too. Clearly anybody who thinks a mouse is a good stand-in for a lot of the keyboard's navigational tricks must not do a lot of data entry.
Sure, I'm just curious how much of it comes down to that though. Not so much about full-sized boards. Those will always be the least popular for people who aren't crunching numbers all day, but I would say that demand for 65%-75% boards is much higher than the options available would suggest, and that 60% is just good enough, so it will have to do.
The Boomers here grew up using full size keyboards, and thus prefer them.
The Zoomers here did not grow up using full size keyboards and thus do not prefer them.
If anything, I would try a TKL or something to see what everybody is saying about moving your hands closer together for gaming. I can't imagine they need to get any closer than that, if I would notice any ergonomic benefit to begin with.I agree, the difference in ergonomics once you've gone to TKL is minimal....you won't be using that extra space going to 60% provides.
That said...you can get pretty efficient with 60% if you lay it out correctly..For me, using left thumb for FN + IJKL for arrow keys is really fast if you get used to it...the problem is it doesn't translate to other devices very well and that's where this is a bit of a pain... I had the same problem w/ the HHKB where switching back and forth between the normal backspace and the \ location for HHKB backspace was really bothersome (although CTRL seemed incredibly natural) and I almost sold my board as a result. Eventually your brain lets you switch back and forth...
For me, it all depends on what I am doing. I have a TKL for a music program that I use that uses Function keys to navitgate. I have a couple 60% boards for gaming because I really don't need anything more. Heck, for one I could probably get away with a 40% if I wanted to. That being said, for work where I am constantly typing in numbers, I have to have a full size. I could probably use something like a 65% (need those delete, home and end keys) and a separate number pad, but at that point I might as well get a full size. I cant wait until I head back into work with a mechanical board and confuse everyone.
HHKB I don't even want to touch, personally. It reminds me of some of those weird late 70s and early 80s terminal boards. I don't personally understand the the preference for control up where caps lock is. Caps lock is a key that I never use, and I have never had any problem pressing ctrl where it is normally, although my fingers are very long so contorting them in strange ways may be easier for me than others. This positioning of ctrl is actually the single most jarring thing to me about using an AT layout keyboard, although I have adapted reasonably well to that.
HHKB I don't even want to touch, personally. It reminds me of some of those weird late 70s and early 80s terminal boards. I don't personally understand the the preference for control up where caps lock is. Caps lock is a key that I never use, and I have never had any problem pressing ctrl where it is normally, although my fingers are very long so contorting them in strange ways may be easier for me than others. This positioning of ctrl is actually the single most jarring thing to me about using an AT layout keyboard, although I have adapted reasonably well to that.
Using CTRL where capslock is, is so much easier...Keyboard that allow you to swap that, I do that immediately. The \\\ as a backspace is also really convenient I quite like it when it is there but it takes a bit of time to get used to going back and forth...for others it is the arrow keys which also take a bit of time. For sure the layout isn't for everyone and personally I'd reconfigure a good portion of if it were up to me but I enjoy the board so much I'm ok with that.
I don't think people have a problem w/ the original CTRL position either but it just feels more logical and easier on the hands putting something useful where capslock is, because like you said, you never use it so why give it prime position on the keyboard? Outside of CTRL the only other key you might consider putting there is backspace...
I don't personally understand the the preference for control up where caps lock is. Caps lock is a key that I never use, and I have never had any problem pressing ctrl where it is normally, although my fingers are very long so contorting them in strange ways may be easier for me than others. This positioning of ctrl is actually the single most jarring thing to me about using an AT layout keyboard, although I have adapted reasonably well to that.
I don't personally understand the the preference for control up where caps lock is. Caps lock is a key that I never use, and I have never had any problem pressing ctrl where it is normally, although my fingers are very long so contorting them in strange ways may be easier for me than others. This positioning of ctrl is actually the single most jarring thing to me about using an AT layout keyboard, although I have adapted reasonably well to that.
Switching Control and CapsLock is the single biggest comfort factor for me. Moreso than having the mouse closer to my centreline (which is also pretty noticeable). All of my boards have it enabled. I have pretty average sized hands, and the only way I could stop my wrist from twinging with control in the normal place is by rotating my entire left shoulder back to shift my entire arm lower on the keyboard for control key combinations.
I've mentioned this key swap to others over the years. A couple of people have tried it and had an 'aha' moment, and adopted it. Most others seem fine with the usual place though.
swapping ctrl and cmd for ergo reasons doesn’t hold up when you’re used to cmd on macs. having your main mod next to the space bar and on both sides is significantly more comfortable.
if I used windows I’d probably run ctrl-alt-ctrl as a winkeyless mapping.
I'll say that as a programmer, a 60% keyboard is actually better for me, but this is very subjective. I never use the bottom right shift or the buttons below it. I always use the bottom left for that stuff. Therefore I remapped them to be arrow buttons. So now the arrow buttons are actually closer to me than they normally would be in a regular keyboard. Then I remap function plus those arrow keys to be pg up, pg down, home, and end. Now I have excellent navigation through my code that is much more accessible than where it would normally be on a bigger keyboard! In other words, 60% rocks! No tradeoffs, only benefits for me.
I am absolutely itching though to try out 40%. The main idea is just literally never having to lift your hands to press a button while still having the most fluid experience with typing. Honestly a 60% does that nearly perfectly and I doubt it's worth the trouble of experimenting with a 40%. But it's just fun :p
Using my mouse is way more comfortable. Also less hand movements, as everything is really close. The only keys I kinda miss are arrows. Surprisingly I didn't miss the numpad much, even though I do use the calculator often.
Having other navigation keys doesn't bother me much, as I rarely use them.
That depends on what you're doing, if you're just talking about slamming tab 30 times to try to highlight a very specific thing on-screen, sure, that would be the case. If you're talking about hitting ctrl + shift + arrow keys to quickly highlight an entire range of hundreds or thousands of cells in a spreadsheet ... not so much. shift + arrow keys/ctrl + shift + arrow keys for precise text highlighting can be more efficient in some situations as well. Just a few examples. If all you're ever going to use again for the rest of your life is a specific 60% with a specific proprietary mapping of your choosing, you can make that work with macros, if not, you can't.
I'm also seeing an interesting dichotomy here where people say they optimize the use of their keyboard by preventing the need to ever move their hands away from the home row, but also that the navigational hotkeys potentially lost as a result don't matter because using a mouse is easier anyway and/or a smaller size has some profound effect on ease-of-use of the mouse ... which requires taking one hand off of the keyboard entirely, negating the previous point. Even if that were not a factor, I can't say that I understand the rigid focus on never diverting from the home row, and I'm the sort of person who doesn't often do so either besides for the arrow keys.
I'm not saying that any specific form factor sucks, of course, everybody has their own preferences and use cases.
That depends on what you're doing, if you're just talking about slamming tab 30 times to try to highlight a very specific thing on-screen, sure, that would be the case. If you're talking about hitting ctrl + shift + arrow keys to quickly highlight an entire range of hundreds or thousands of cells in a spreadsheet ... not so much. shift + arrow keys/ctrl + shift + arrow keys for precise text highlighting can be more efficient in some situations as well. Just a few examples. If all you're ever going to use again for the rest of your life is a specific 60% with a specific proprietary mapping of your choosing, you can make that work with macros, if not, you can't.
I'm also seeing an interesting dichotomy here where people say they optimize the use of their keyboard by preventing the need to ever move their hands away from the home row, but also that the navigational hotkeys potentially lost as a result don't matter because using a mouse is easier anyway and/or a smaller size has some profound effect on ease-of-use of the mouse ... which requires taking one hand off of the keyboard entirely, negating the previous point. Even if that were not a factor, I can't say that I understand the rigid focus on never diverting from the home row, and I'm the sort of person who doesn't often do so either besides for the arrow keys.
I'm not saying that any specific form factor sucks, of course, everybody has their own preferences and use cases.
Think you hit the nail on the head with usage case. I wouldn't say I'm fanatical about staying locked on the home row. I do touch type, but I don't really think about it. My main use case is typing out code. Most editors devs use are built to help make navigation around the code, windows, etc super easy to do with the keys. So depending on the editor, I really don't need the mouse that often. I also happen to be a fast typer. So there may be some feeling that being able to manage navigation through key strokes is "more efficient" than using a mouse.
This isn't to say I don't use the mouse. When I'm not coding ... I use it quite a bit.
I'm gonna tackle this question less from a practicality or functionality point and more from a mental point.
Some people prefer cute things. If they can get an everyday object that is smaller and cuter, they will. If you go to Japan the entire idea of 'kawaii' is like a national aesthetic.
I also think unconsciously some people think smaller tech means it is more advanced, even though that is objectively not the case across the board.
An opposing view seems to come from people who have both large desks, and keyboard trays. In those arrangements, there is plenty of room for a full-size keyboard. And if your software uses a lot of dedicated keyboard shortcuts, a larger keyboard can be incredibly powerful.
Given that most custom MK are made of material that has some heft...
Would people be interested in these high end MK to be made of exotic lightweight materials for mobility/portability?
It is an interesting reading so far. But, I think that recent posts have been missing the point. It is not really about space available on the desktop; but, about ergonomy. Repetitive movements out of natural resting positions can cause severe pains. So, anything that contributes to have the arms, wrists and hands as close as posible to neutral positions may save most of the stress to the joints and muscles. In this context the battleship style boards and full size ones cannot be centered at their main writing area while allowing a natural position for the pointing device at the same time, making the layout non-ergonomic. Also the main display should be centered to your eyes sight to allow the head a natural position and not cause stress to your neck and backbone. Again, it is not a matter of space, but about relative positions to your body.
Given that most custom MK are made of material that has some heft...
Would people be interested in these high end MK to be made of exotic lightweight materials for mobility/portability?
If this thread is anything to go by, most people are not really using the supposed portability factor of small boards.
I only have 10 fingers.
Since switching to 50 keys, I have not missed having more keys...
I have used full-sized boards at work, I have used TKLs at work, and until I brought the old Nan Tan to work, I was using that 75% Matias for two weeks or so. I can't say that I have noticed any difference in ergonomics. I think I still naturally kept my mouse further from the keyboard as the keyboard's relative width decreased though as well. I imagine that one's shoulder width may factor into whether or not this matters, if it does.
I have used full-sized boards at work, I have used TKLs at work, and until I brought the old Nan Tan to work, I was using that 75% Matias for two weeks or so. I can't say that I have noticed any difference in ergonomics. I think I still naturally kept my mouse further from the keyboard as the keyboard's relative width decreased though as well. I imagine that one's shoulder width may factor into whether or not this matters, if it does.
You are probably on the less common side then because I think that's what most people notice when they move to TKL, that their mouse position is so much better for them than it was with a full sized keyboard.
Have you tried moving the mouse closer? Does it feel weird because you're not used to it or is it actually restricting movements?
Either way, you're definitely in the minority here...even if you like to have your mouse further away, there is no doubt TKL gives you options you don't have when using full.
I have used full-sized boards at work, I have used TKLs at work, and until I brought the old Nan Tan to work, I was using that 75% Matias for two weeks or so. I can't say that I have noticed any difference in ergonomics. I think I still naturally kept my mouse further from the keyboard as the keyboard's relative width decreased though as well. I imagine that one's shoulder width may factor into whether or not this matters, if it does.
You are probably on the less common side then because I think that's what most people notice when they move to TKL, that their mouse position is so much better for them than it was with a full sized keyboard.
Have you tried moving the mouse closer? Does it feel weird because you're not used to it or is it actually restricting movements?
Either way, you're definitely in the minority here...even if you like to have your mouse further away, there is no doubt TKL gives you options you don't have when using full.
I have not, but I could try once I move the Matias back into rotation. I wanted to get some time in with perfect condition SKCM white Alps. The reason I bring up shoulder width is I have noticed that, even with a full-sized keyboard, my hands are roughly the same distance from each other as my shoulders are when mousing with my left hand still on the home row. I suppose this may even be another one of those paradoxical situations, in my estimation, seeing as your hands are already very close together on the home row when typing, regardless of the type of keyboard used. I can't say I have noticed any difference in ergonomics when just typing vs when mousing. I can't imagine that people commonly do in this scenario either? I wonder what it was that could be so drastically different about mousing with both hands closer together then ... more similar to just typing normally.
Sure, tiny keyboards give you the benefit of space, sometimes weight, and sometimes maybe efficiency in very specific scenarios. I'm still not sold on most of the rest of it.
I have used full-sized boards at work, I have used TKLs at work, and until I brought the old Nan Tan to work, I was using that 75% Matias for two weeks or so. I can't say that I have noticed any difference in ergonomics. I think I still naturally kept my mouse further from the keyboard as the keyboard's relative width decreased though as well. I imagine that one's shoulder width may factor into whether or not this matters, if it does.
You are probably on the less common side then because I think that's what most people notice when they move to TKL, that their mouse position is so much better for them than it was with a full sized keyboard.
Have you tried moving the mouse closer? Does it feel weird because you're not used to it or is it actually restricting movements?
Either way, you're definitely in the minority here...even if you like to have your mouse further away, there is no doubt TKL gives you options you don't have when using full.
I have not, but I could try once I move the Matias back into rotation. I wanted to get some time in with perfect condition SKCM white Alps. The reason I bring up shoulder width is I have noticed that, even with a full-sized keyboard, my hands are roughly the same distance from each other as my shoulders are when mousing with my left hand still on the home row. I suppose this may even be another one of those paradoxical situations, in my estimation, seeing as your hands are already very close together on the home row when typing, regardless of the type of keyboard used. I can't say I have noticed any difference in ergonomics when just typing vs when mousing. I can't imagine that people commonly do in this scenario either? I wonder what it was that could be so drastically different about mousing with both hands closer together then ... more similar to just typing normally.
Sure, tiny keyboards give you the benefit of space, sometimes weight, and sometimes maybe efficiency in very specific scenarios. I'm still not sold on most of the rest of it.
Ah. The explanation is simple your are a lefty. The main ergonomics issue is for right handed. Where the nav pad and num pad of a full size keyboard overlap with the proper area for a mouse.
I have not, but I could try once I move the Matias back into rotation. I wanted to get some time in with perfect condition SKCM white Alps. The reason I bring up shoulder width is I have noticed that, even with a full-sized keyboard, my hands are roughly the same distance from each other as my shoulders are when mousing with my left hand still on the home row. I suppose this may even be another one of those paradoxical situations, in my estimation, seeing as your hands are already very close together on the home row when typing, regardless of the type of keyboard used. I can't say I have noticed any difference in ergonomics when just typing vs when mousing. I can't imagine that people commonly do in this scenario either? I wonder what it was that could be so drastically different about mousing with both hands closer together then ... more similar to just typing normally.
Ah. The explanation is simple your are a lefty. The main ergonomics issue is for right handed. Where the nav pad and num pad of a full size keyboard overlap with the proper area for a mouse.
I jumped into the hobby with a 60% and hated it.
I'm a developer, and layering tilde + arrow keys felt like necessary key strokes. I eventually jumped to a TKL.
Recently though I've been trying to use hjkl etc etc, so I've been considering going back in the smaller direction.
I understand the aesthetic argument, but for me at this point it's all about comfort / ease of use when writing code. Maybe other have a similar experience?
Mouse position is a big deal for me (right handed) which is why I moved to TKL.
I've just looked down at my desk, and realised I've shoved the keyboard further away from me, towards the monitors, and my mouse range now overlaps my keyboard space by about an inch. I've done this completely without thinking about it, my desk has been like this for days now. The keyboard tends to moves forward and back depending on whether I am writing with a pen and paper, and this is the position my peripherals have ended up in without conscious effort.
So looking at this, I'm figuring there might be some small benefit to using something like a 65% board, but I am simply not willing to forgo separated arrow keys. Just dropping the numbad was a big enough loss in functionality. Also, I like the feeling of 55g unsilenced Topre too much to be tempted by much else out there.
When I am gaming, the mouse moves around a lot further, so what ends up happening is the keyboard is shifted drastically to the left (and tilted) for use purely with my left hand.
I've got a big trackball arriving in the next couple of days, so hopefully this becomes a total non-issue shortly.
I have that same exact board in black as my first Topre board. I would have preferred something smaller, but that's what was (relatively) cheap at that moment. You do some gaming with 55g Topre? I find them maybe just a bit too stiff/tactile for that purpose. I'm still sticking with MX reds, which brings me to another funny ergonomic quirk. In order to get time in with the Topre board, I have it on top of my desk. I have my mouse, and K70 on a sliding keyboard tray just beneath the surface of the desk. I have been mousing entirely from this tray, using the K70 for in-game movement, and using the Realforce for conversing with people, Google searches, etc. Other than the Topre board maybe being a little high for my chair's most comfortable setting for the mouse and K70, I don't even mind that configuration.
Side note: I currently put Topre 55g above most anything MX as a typist's switch, but it still feels wonderful going from that back to Alps, Matias, capacitive buckling spring, and Kailh thick clicks. I even wonder why I keep making myself go back to the Realforce when I prefer my clickies so definitively, but I want more than just a first impression. I do hope you branch out and try more of the things available out there if you get the chance.
The Boomers here grew up using full size keyboards, and thus prefer them.
The Zoomers here did not grow up using full size keyboards and thus do not prefer them.
The Boomers here grew up using full size keyboards, and thus prefer them.
The Zoomers here did not grow up using full size keyboards and thus do not prefer them.
Well, that's awkward. I grew up with full-size keyboards, and my favourite layout is HHKB.
(I have a Model M, too, of course.)
Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/JA11dZe.jpg)
I'm finding that even though I can use a function layer nav cluster, I have to pay too much attention to making sure my fingers are homed, and it turns out that for web browsing or excel work, my hands are not over the home row already.
I'm finding that even though I can use a function layer nav cluster, I have to pay too much attention to making sure my fingers are homed, and it turns out that for web browsing or excel work, my hands are not over the home row already.
Totally agree on that point. Homing my hands to use the arrow keys as I was bouncing from my keyboard to my trackball and macroboard and back again just didn't work for me either. Dedicated arrow keys just worked better. For me, a 60% with arrow keys, a HHKB style backspace and a split backspace key would be perfect. Maybe one day. My 65% will have to do for now. (The other 4 keys above the right arrow never really get used).
I also find a 65% + separate numpad to be better than a TKL as I can put the numpad on the other side of my trackball. As I use the trackball far more than the numpad, my hand gets to use the more comfortable spot more often.
I'm finding that even though I can use a function layer nav cluster, I have to pay too much attention to making sure my fingers are homed, and it turns out that for web browsing or excel work, my hands are not over the home row already.
Totally agree on that point. Homing my hands to use the arrow keys as I was bouncing from my keyboard to my trackball and macroboard and back again just didn't work for me either. Dedicated arrow keys just worked better. For me, a 60% with arrow keys, a HHKB style backspace and a split backspace key would be perfect. Maybe one day. My 65% will have to do for now. (The other 4 keys above the right arrow never really get used).
I also find a 65% + separate numpad to be better than a TKL as I can put the numpad on the other side of my trackball. As I use the trackball far more than the numpad, my hand gets to use the more comfortable spot more often.
I think that 60% + dedicated arrow keys, 65%, and 75% are all grossly-ignored potential markets. I too find them to be just about the sweet spot for size and function if I really needed something tiny. some day, maybe.
The Boomers here grew up using full size keyboards, and thus prefer them.
The Zoomers here did not grow up using full size keyboards and thus do not prefer them.
Man I hate looking at guys with a tenkeyless and a separate numberpad. I understand on your end since you like it on the left and it's easier to apprehend one of those than a nice lefty layout, but man, it still striked me as wrong, you know what I mean?
Man I hate looking at guys with a tenkeyless and a separate numberpad. I understand on your end since you like it on the left and it's easier to apprehend one of those than a nice lefty layout, but man, it still striked me as wrong, you know what I mean?
But the point is why bother when you can just get a full sized?
But the point is why bother when you can just get a full sized?
Shoulder arthritis and being a short-arse does not a friend of full size keyboards make. I CAN use them but I have to be careful. It's better since I switched to a trackball but in general I try to keep my arms as non-stretched as possible and smaller keyboards allow that better. I've used TKL's off and on for years and literally today had my first 60% delivered so we'll see how that goes.
Shoulder arthritis and being a short-arse does not a friend of full size keyboards make. I CAN use them but I have to be careful. It's better since I switched to a trackball but in general I try to keep my arms as non-stretched as possible and smaller keyboards allow that better. I've used TKL's off and on for years and literally today had my first 60% delivered so we'll see how that goes.
Trackballs are awesome. One of my next projects will be internally converting an old ps/2 Scorpius board to bluetooth and swapping box jades into it, partly because it has a trackball, which would be sweet for HTPC duty.
Shoulder arthritis and being a short-arse does not a friend of full size keyboards make. I CAN use them but I have to be careful. It's better since I switched to a trackball but in general I try to keep my arms as non-stretched as possible and smaller keyboards allow that better. I've used TKL's off and on for years and literally today had my first 60% delivered so we'll see how that goes.
Trackballs are awesome. One of my next projects will be internally converting an old ps/2 Scorpius board to bluetooth and swapping box jades into it, partly because it has a trackball, which would be sweet for HTPC duty.
Have you tried one of those Unicomps or Lexmarks with the integrated trackball? An acquaintance of mine loves em.
By the way guys I've purchased this keyboard for $27 from the Amazons.
So I don't know what any of the extra legends mean really. It looks like there's a function layer that will enable the macros maybe, plus the volume controls and **** like that,and I don't like the mixed numberpad, which is truly retarded. Why are some numbers default and some white? Who the **** knows, but it is one of the only one of these compact layout keyboards with the full function row and the numpad that omits the dedicated nav cluster AND the arrows so you can have a full set of modifier keys on the right. I like that. It's a slightly modernized AT type layout.
I'll post a review when I'm done with it. This is about as compact as I'm going outside of the New Model F77 in the compact case.
Shoulder arthritis and being a short-arse does not a friend of full size keyboards make. I CAN use them but I have to be careful. It's better since I switched to a trackball but in general I try to keep my arms as non-stretched as possible and smaller keyboards allow that better. I've used TKL's off and on for years and literally today had my first 60% delivered so we'll see how that goes.
Trackballs are awesome. One of my next projects will be internally converting an old ps/2 Scorpius board to bluetooth and swapping box jades into it, partly because it has a trackball, which would be sweet for HTPC duty.
Have you tried one of those Unicomps or Lexmarks with the integrated trackball? An acquaintance of mine loves em.
Unfortunately, I have not. I have thought about picking one up many times. What usually deterred me was the positioning of the trackball. I'm not sure why they thought it would be a good idea to have it way above the lock lights. The M5-1 might be interesting, but I also like having that middle button for scrolling. I specifically chose the Scorpius board for those reasons. I have already swapped all of the terrible "Aristotle" switches for jades, have figured out the pinout of both JST connectors, and swapped the lock light LEDs to red to be less irritating in the dark. I also have a stainless steel ball bearing that should, hopefully, be a straight swap for the original trackball.By the way guys I've purchased this keyboard for $27 from the Amazons.
So I don't know what any of the extra legends mean really. It looks like there's a function layer that will enable the macros maybe, plus the volume controls and **** like that,and I don't like the mixed numberpad, which is truly retarded. Why are some numbers default and some white? Who the **** knows, but it is one of the only one of these compact layout keyboards with the full function row and the numpad that omits the dedicated nav cluster AND the arrows so you can have a full set of modifier keys on the right. I like that. It's a slightly modernized AT type layout.
I'll post a review when I'm done with it. This is about as compact as I'm going outside of the New Model F77 in the compact case.
That seems like a surprisingly good price for such a non-standard board. Hard to go wrong for $27, even if it ends up being pretty terrible. I'll be interested to see your thoughts on it after some use.