Post by: hhkbp2 on Wed, 26 September 2018, 11:32:18
Interest Check (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=94288.0)
Design Concept:
Inspired by Lisp Machine and Space-Cadet Keyboard. It's a Space-Cadet theme SA keycap set.
Details
ABS double-shot MX-mount keyset of SA profile, made by Signature Plastics.
For prices and ETA of shipping info, refer to the Kono Store link (https://kono.store/collections/keycap-sets/products/sa-symbiosis-keycaps).
Kits and Renders
All kits: Album (https://imgur.com/a/bxPTTrV)
All renders on keyboards: Album (https://imgur.com/a/LSglLmQ)
Vendors
NA: Kono Store link (https://kono.store/collections/keycap-sets/products/sa-symbiosis-keycaps)
EU: Mykeyboard link (https://mykeyboard.eu/catalogue/category/group-buys/sa-symbiosis_114/)
Asia: Zfrontier link (https://en.zfrontier.com/products/sa-symbiosis-2)
China: Zfrontier link (http://www.zfrontier.com/m/4819)
Post by: Signature on Wed, 26 September 2018, 12:45:42
Post by: Captain Shwah on Wed, 26 September 2018, 12:53:01
Post by: Nigolski on Wed, 26 September 2018, 13:06:31
Post by: _ODIN_ on Wed, 26 September 2018, 13:40:20
Post by: enrique.aliaga on Wed, 26 September 2018, 14:00:27
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: mkarlsson on Wed, 26 September 2018, 14:21:56
Nice! What about South America customers? Don’t neglect us, please.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ey Enrique, just wondering, what layout do you guys normarly use? ISO, ANSI? Maybe it depends on the country?
Post by: gbchk on Wed, 26 September 2018, 14:27:09
Post by: vilagefool on Wed, 26 September 2018, 14:53:50
For as much as I wanted a set, that doesn't feel like GB pricing but more like aftermarket markup....
Post by: enrique.aliaga on Wed, 26 September 2018, 15:45:29
Nice! What about South America customers? Don’t neglect us, please.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ey Enrique, just wondering, what layout do you guys normarly use? ISO, ANSI? Maybe it depends on the country?
Hey!
Spanish-speaking countries such as mine (Peru) use “Spanish-Latin America” layout, which is ISO. Most South American countries except Brazil use this layout. Brazil, being a Portuguese-speaking country, uses a Portuguese variant of ISO.
I am personally a US ANSI user, though, given my background as a programmer and Vim lover. I find using US ANSI much more natural in my field of work. This is a great advantage as a keyboard enthusiast, since I have much greater selection of keyboards and keycaps to choose from.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Hedgey on Wed, 26 September 2018, 15:46:46
I really don't understand the pricing on some of these kits. Cadet is $38.99 for 8 keys? Novelties is the same price yet has more keys, more colors, custom legends, etc. Dox kit is almost $100. What's the reasoning behind this?
Yeah I'm really curious on this too. $75 for Mods seems really steep, and then you start looking at the pricing for other kits and it's even worse.
From Input Club on Reddit:
"SP's quote for each keyset was higher than usual. We're pretty sure this is due to an increased QC reject rate from the set's complex legends. I just spoke with everyone on the team about Mod pricing and pushed for a change — we're dropping them to $69.99 and editing current orders to reflect the new price. CADR will go up sometime today as well."
So basically it looks like SP just figuring out they can charge more and no one will bat an eye. I don't buy the QC rejection rate when the keys that make it to production aren't exactly perfect to begin with...
Post by: Hedgey on Wed, 26 September 2018, 15:50:15
hahaha, $210 for CADR?!? Does that come with a backrub and kiss on the cheek from SP?
For as much as I wanted a set, that doesn't feel like GB pricing but more like aftermarket markup....
CADR comes out to the same price as Alphas, Mods, Numpad, and Extension Kits. So while it's expensive, it's inline with the sculpted kits.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Wed, 26 September 2018, 17:04:59
Nice! What about South America customers? Don’t neglect us, please.
I don't want to neglect anyone. It's just I have no idea of South America proxy, and all the current proxies are introduced by Kono Store. Do you have recommendation? Maybe I could talk to Kono Store about this.
I really don't understand the pricing on some of these kits. Cadet is $38.99 for 8 keys? Novelties is the same price yet has more keys, more colors, custom legends, etc. Dox kit is almost $100. What's the reasoning behind this?
I think there is some mistake about the price of Cadet kit. I have told your question to them and they're working on an update for it. Really sorry about the confusion.
hahaha, $210 for CADR?!? Does that come with a backrub and kiss on the cheek from SP?
For as much as I wanted a set, that doesn't feel like GB pricing but more like aftermarket markup....
$210 is high for one kit. But $210 is not that high for a all-in-one kit like a aftermarket thing as you said. You will know that if you recently got quotes from SP for a similar all-in-one kit, or if you join the GB of SA Nautilus, SA Song earlier this year or know their pricing, especially when you consider the different MOQs for prices.
Post by: hokie_programmer on Wed, 26 September 2018, 17:10:57
Post by: Lisinge on Wed, 26 September 2018, 17:11:59
Looking to put this on a 96 key. Should I go with the CADR or alphas+modifiers+numpad+extension? What's the difference?
CADR is uniform R3. The separate sets are fully sculpted SA 1-1-2-3-4-3.
This means that all keycaps in the CADR set will have the same height and profile footprint which gives you greater flexibility to put the keycaps wherever you want on the keyboard.
Post by: Taques on Wed, 26 September 2018, 17:46:16
The pricing of the Cadet kit may not be a mistake, Kono noted that they already lowered the price of the kit to $39. Will regrettably have to pass on that one if it is accurate, especially when the Vim kit has more keys that require new legends and they are only $14.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Wed, 26 September 2018, 18:18:49
Was originally gonna pick up CADR, but it is actually $6 more expensive than Alphas+Mods+Extensions+Numpad so I think I'll go sculpted. That will match the sculpt of the choices kits better, too. Love having the option of blue vs grey choices kits! I think I'll have to do both.
The pricing of the Cadet kit may not be a mistake, Kono noted that they already lowered the price of the kit to $39. Will regrettably have to pass on that one if it is accurate, especially when the Vim kit has more keys that require new legends and they are only $14.
I guess it's just because the sculpted profile is more popular nowadays so Kono Store just prices the sculpted kits lower at higher MOQ. So in summary CADR is more expensive than the combination as you mentioned, even when the sculpted combination has more keys.
About the price for Cadet kit, really sorry if it stops you guys from placing the orders. Kono Store is still working on the update, and I suppose to be notified when it's done. I will let you know if I have further info on this.
Post by: cijanzen on Wed, 26 September 2018, 18:49:30
Post by: mimalik on Wed, 26 September 2018, 19:25:22
I don’t know if this has been brought up but the spacekeys kit also seems really highly priced. I mean if that’s what they are then it is what it is and that’s fine, but could you double check the pricing on that kit as well?
Seems to be high compared to blue/grey choices, I want to get both blue and yellow spacebar kits, but it will be cheaper to go with b/g choices.
Please have the price checked for spacebars as well.
Also if we purchase a set/kit now and later price gets reduced later, how will it affected already placed order.
Post by: superdoedoe on Wed, 26 September 2018, 19:27:34
Post by: digid3ar on Wed, 26 September 2018, 20:38:42
Post by: sevenseacat on Wed, 26 September 2018, 21:01:14
Post by: Mearaz on Wed, 26 September 2018, 21:12:03
But why is the space keys $53.99? That's more expensive than the alphas!
Post by: indiceiris on Wed, 26 September 2018, 22:40:14
Post by: ihalatch on Wed, 26 September 2018, 22:59:47
you should get dailyclack.com to proxy for australia ;)
+1
Post by: superdoedoe on Thu, 27 September 2018, 01:40:49
you should get dailyclack.com to proxy for australia ;)
+1
+2
Post by: gunchi on Thu, 27 September 2018, 01:45:11
+3you should get dailyclack.com to proxy for australia ;)
+1
+2
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
Post by: sevenseacat on Thu, 27 September 2018, 04:36:26
+3you should get dailyclack.com to proxy for australia ;)
+1
+2
Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
hey yeah I'd prefer them to Zfrontier!
I mean
+4
Post by: adamcobabe on Thu, 27 September 2018, 05:49:15
Post by: otanishock on Thu, 27 September 2018, 07:09:28
Post by: hervuli on Thu, 27 September 2018, 07:41:19
Post by: FearsomeCubedWarrior on Thu, 27 September 2018, 07:45:08
Post by: Windeh on Thu, 27 September 2018, 09:26:41
Great work on the set by the way! :thumb:
Post by: Ensaum on Thu, 27 September 2018, 10:15:10
In for CADR, the price is high but not unreasonable - but spacekeys is a different story. That's gotta be a mistake at $54, right? The exact same spacekeys kit in SA Oblivion was $25 without any MOQ price drops.
Yeah, Cadet is ridiculous too. There's no way those two kits are priced correctly. I'd actually like to get cadet, but now for $40. I'm waiting to join until it gets fixed or at least confirmed that's it's just grossly overpriced.
Post by: DocNoc on Thu, 27 September 2018, 10:37:13
In for CADR, the price is high but not unreasonable - but spacekeys is a different story. That's gotta be a mistake at $54, right? The exact same spacekeys kit in SA Oblivion was $25 without any MOQ price drops.
Yeah, Cadet is ridiculous too. There's no way those two kits are priced correctly. I'd actually like to get cadet, but now for $40. I'm waiting to join until it gets fixed or at least confirmed that's it's just grossly overpriced.
Yeah i'm holding off on ordering Cadet in the hopes that it is just a mistake...
I was wondering if it would be at all possible to get a render of the base kit/mods with the yellow spacebar thrown in there alongside yellow enter and escape key. Im kinda sad/surprised that there wasn't already a render that threw it in there because IMO the yellow enter/escape look great.
Post by: mimalik on Thu, 27 September 2018, 10:54:03
In for CADR, the price is high but not unreasonable - but spacekeys is a different story. That's gotta be a mistake at $54, right? The exact same spacekeys kit in SA Oblivion was $25 without any MOQ price drops.
Yeah, Cadet is ridiculous too. There's no way those two kits are priced correctly. I'd actually like to get cadet, but now for $40. I'm waiting to join until it gets fixed or at least confirmed that's it's just grossly overpriced.
Yeah i'm holding off on ordering Cadet in the hopes that it is just a mistake...
I was wondering if it would be at all possible to get a render of the base kit/mods with the yellow spacebar thrown in there alongside yellow enter and escape key. Im kinda sad/surprised that there wasn't already a render that threw it in there because IMO the yellow enter/escape look great.
+1 for yellow spacebar renders, if possible on full size kb plz.
Post by: crykn on Thu, 27 September 2018, 11:19:02
Post by: mimalik on Thu, 27 September 2018, 11:28:00
Now I've never been a part of a group buy before, but the price for the modifiers and the extension seem to very high for a group buy. Is there a reason for this or am I just being unreasonable?
Actually alphas + mods+ numpad is very reasonable if not below some of the other SA drops lately. If anything considering how in demand this color scheme is, I will say its cheaper than I was expecting. I purchased GMK Space Cadet and will also get SA version, its one of those iconic sets that everyone should have both of em.
Some kits prices may appear more than usual, but I understand Kono may be in process of updating the price.
Overall very affordable kit, but wont mind any further price drops.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Thu, 27 September 2018, 11:43:57
I will try to answer questions you raised.
Nice! What about South America customers? Don’t neglect us, please.
+3you should get dailyclack.com to proxy for australia ;)
+1
+2
I'm afraid we are not going to have more proxies for this GB. It requires a lot to trust and to work with a proxy for such a long time group buy. Kono Store works with current proxies for a long time and they manage to run many GBs. It's not a good practice to involve some new proxy for this GB for now.
Are we gonna have different price tiers for different MOQs? Or is it just one fix price regardless?
We will not have different price drops. It's too hard to perform price drops since we have 20+ kits and three different vendors/proxies. Once we add proxies we lose flexibility. So it works in a way that each kit has an estimated MOQ, based on popularity. Some kit has a lower price at higher MOQ, while some other kit has a higher price at lower MOQ.
I don’t know if this has been brought up but the spacekeys kit also seems really highly priced. I mean if that’s what they are then it is what it is and that’s fine, but could you double check the pricing on that kit as well?
I will wait for Zfrontier too.
But why is the space keys $53.99? That's more expensive than the alphas!
In for CADR, the price is high but not unreasonable - but spacekeys is a different story. That's gotta be a mistake at $54, right? The exact same spacekeys kit in SA Oblivion was $25 without any MOQ price drops.
Yeah, Cadet is ridiculous too. There's no way those two kits are priced correctly. I'd actually like to get cadet, but now for $40. I'm waiting to join until it gets fixed or at least confirmed that's it's just grossly overpriced.
I got confirmation from Kono Store that all current prices are correct. The Cadet kit's price is a bit high because it's priced at lower MOQ while Novelties kit's price is at higher MOQ. In the end you will see the same prices for both. The Spacekeys kit's price is high because it has 3u keys and it has lower MOQ for pricing.
It's not just that simple to count the number of keys in a kit and sum their prices to get the final kit's price. The popularity and sold number should be considered too. It's counterintuitive at the first look.
Waiting for Zfrontier :D
Kono Store had sent the info of this GB to Zfrontier and Mykeyboard. It will be online soon.
Post by: cijanzen on Thu, 27 September 2018, 11:51:59
Post by: crykn on Thu, 27 September 2018, 11:56:51
Now I've never been a part of a group buy before, but the price for the modifiers and the extension seem to very high for a group buy. Is there a reason for this or am I just being unreasonable?
Actually alphas + mods+ numpad is very reasonable if not below some of the other SA drops lately. If anything considering how in demand this color scheme is, I will say its cheaper than I was expecting. I purchased GMK Space Cadet and will also get SA version, its one of those iconic sets that everyone should have both of em.
Some kits prices may appear more than usual, but I understand Kono may be in process of updating the price.
Overall very affordable kit, but wont mind any further price drops.
Good to know. I was hoping to get enough for a 75% keyboard, unfortunately the extension kit is pretty expensive for what few keys I need.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Thu, 27 September 2018, 11:58:12
Looks like fix price to me.
Just to be sure: if some set won't meet MOQ, will we be able to choose other sets instead or will be refunded right away?
I'm in for alphas and considering 40s as well, but 40s are known to miss MOQ.
Would also like to know what the MOQs for each kits are, and how are they handled if not reached.
Great work on the set by the way! :thumb:
Thanks for your support! If the sold number of a kit is too far from the lowest MOQ, Kono Store will cancel the kit and do the refund. And they will make sure you have a time frame to change to your order if you like. Later Kono Store will put some statements about this on the product page.
Post by: vodan on Thu, 27 September 2018, 12:11:33
We will not have different price drops. It's too hard to perform price drops since we have 20+ kits and three different vendors/proxies. Once we add proxies we lose flexibility. So it works in a way that each kit has an estimated MOQ, based on popularity. Some kit has a lower price at higher MOQ, while some other kit has a higher price at lower MOQ.
i'm guessing that's why the ergo kit is almost $100...
definitely getting the alphas and ortho but now may have to reconsider ergo
but thank you so much for making this happen!
Post by: Taques on Thu, 27 September 2018, 12:15:43
I got confirmation from Kono Store that all current prices are correct. The Cadet kit's price is a bit high because it's priced at lower MOQ while Novelties kit's price is at higher MOQ. In the end you will see the same prices for both. The Spacekeys kit's price is high because it has 3u keys and it has lower MOQ for pricing.
It's not just that simple to count the number of keys in a kit and sum their prices to get the final kit's price. The popularity and sold number should be considered too. It's counterintuitive at the first look.
Thank you for confirming with Kono and clarification on the pricing :thumb: Hope this GB is a huge success for all the work you put into it!
In for Alphas/Mods/Extension/Numpad/Blue Choices/Grey Choices for sure, potentially blue spacebars, too.
Post by: hervuli on Thu, 27 September 2018, 12:30:35
In for CADR, the price is high but not unreasonable - but spacekeys is a different story. That's gotta be a mistake at $54, right? The exact same spacekeys kit in SA Oblivion was $25 without any MOQ price drops.
Yeah, Cadet is ridiculous too. There's no way those two kits are priced correctly. I'd actually like to get cadet, but now for $40. I'm waiting to join until it gets fixed or at least confirmed that's it's just grossly overpriced.
I got confirmation from Kono Store that all current prices are correct. The Cadet kit's price is a bit high because it's priced at lower MOQ while Novelties kit's price is at higher MOQ. In the end you will see the same prices for both. The Spacekeys kit's price is high because it has 3u keys and it has lower MOQ for pricing.
It's not just that simple to count the number of keys in a kit and sum their prices to get the final kit's price. The popularity and sold number should be considered too. It's counterintuitive at the first look.
Spacekeys is crazy no matter what, SA Carbon R2 spacekeys kit has the exact same keys, including 3u keys, as well as custom colors, and was $30 without any MOQ price drops. Obviously it's hard to compare this with Carbon because of the latter's popularity, but $54 is so far off base it's a joke.
OK I'll stop whining now, I'm buying into other kits regardless, but I don't see how the price of this particular kit is justifiable.
Post by: Ensaum on Thu, 27 September 2018, 12:31:56
Post by: hhkbp2 on Thu, 27 September 2018, 12:36:20
sorry if this question looks a little silly, would be a bad idea to use blue choices kit like modifiers in a lets split build? is the profile in r1 and r4 so different?
The profile from R1 to R4 varies. I guess it will be a good match to have Ortho kit for lets split keyboard since it's ortholinear. Choices kit has Roman numerals and thumbs/hands for these 1u keys, I guess you needs to have one Blue Choices kit for half of the keyboard and some legends on modifier keys would be duplicated. It would be fine as long as you feel ok about it.
Post by: mimalik on Thu, 27 September 2018, 12:43:14
Post by: hhkbp2 on Thu, 27 September 2018, 13:21:30
In for CADR, the price is high but not unreasonable - but spacekeys is a different story. That's gotta be a mistake at $54, right? The exact same spacekeys kit in SA Oblivion was $25 without any MOQ price drops.
Yeah, Cadet is ridiculous too. There's no way those two kits are priced correctly. I'd actually like to get cadet, but now for $40. I'm waiting to join until it gets fixed or at least confirmed that's it's just grossly overpriced.
Yeah i'm holding off on ordering Cadet in the hopes that it is just a mistake...
I was wondering if it would be at all possible to get a render of the base kit/mods with the yellow spacebar thrown in there alongside yellow enter and escape key. Im kinda sad/surprised that there wasn't already a render that threw it in there because IMO the yellow enter/escape look great.
+1 for yellow spacebar renders, if possible on full size kb plz.
As for the yellow spacebar, sorry we don't have any render available for you now. My friends have taken many pictures of the SA keysets in the same color theme with yellow spacebars but I could not find one with 104 keyboard. And just got this:
(https://i.imgur.com/KHRbOgM.jpg)
It's SA Cain and Banana novelties.
I am really digging this yellow color, should ve asked for 2nd mod set or alpha in same during IC phase. Someone should design a SA set with this yellow(YBP) as full mod set and a suitable alpha contrast.
It's out of the topic of this thread, but I should let you know that my friend FF is planning to run a SA keyset later with mainly YBP and WCK in contract for alphas/modifiers. The keyset is called SA Banana.
Post by: mimalik on Thu, 27 September 2018, 13:54:29
Post by: elmo on Thu, 27 September 2018, 16:21:27
Contacted the support to cancel the order so that I can reorder it correctly.
They are not answering any mails (I just get the autoreply that a new support-ticket has been created).
Does anybody know how long they normally take to answer mails?
Post by: bcbishop on Thu, 27 September 2018, 18:58:12
Post by: BobCarltheThird on Thu, 27 September 2018, 22:34:44
Man. While I'm still quite excited about this set, the pricing is a bit of a gut punch. Hard to stomach things like a spacebar not being included in the main alphas kit when the only option left is to buy a spacebar "kit" that runs $16.
Dude try justifying a 50 dollar spacebar kit when the choices kit is only 25. These prices are weird
Post by: BalticSubmarine on Fri, 28 September 2018, 00:26:49
Anybody interested in a 60% only kit? I'm trying to get a few sets of the F1-F12 keys and so I'll have to buy multiple mods sets and won't need the other keys. We can arrange some sort of split.
Just curious what do you plan on doing with all those F keys
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 28 September 2018, 02:00:56
Man. While I'm still quite excited about this set, the pricing is a bit of a gut punch. Hard to stomach things like a spacebar not being included in the main alphas kit when the only option left is to buy a spacebar "kit" that runs $16.
Dude try justifying a 50 dollar spacebar kit when the choices kit is only 25. These prices are weird
Like I said before, the price of a kit is not only about the number of keys, but also base on popularity and MOQ. It's counterintuitive at the first look but it happened from time to time in keyset GBs. You could list many examples:
SA Carbon R2:
Warning Sign kit: 36 keys, $12.99 (later up to $24.99)
Spacekeys kit: 10 keys, $24.99
SA Oblivion:
Assembly kit: 28keys, $25.99
Monochrome OSX kit: 15keys, $32.99
They're weird too if you only count the number of keys.
For the Symbiosis Alpha kit, it doesn't have a 6.25u gray spacebar because Modifiers kit has the spacebar and most Ortholinear, Ergodox, etc. keyboard users don't need this spacebar. It's a usual way to split the kits. You could see it in SA Carbon R2, SA Pulse, SA Green Screen. It's not intended to leave out the spacebar in Alpha kit so that you guys have to buy an extra, expensive spacebars kit.
Post by: 5inn3d- on Fri, 28 September 2018, 07:45:03
Good luck with the GB!
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 28 September 2018, 08:02:18
there are definitely other factors i.e. popularity and MOQ, but $53.99 for spacekeys is too much for me as well.
Good luck with the GB!
The prices/quotes of SP SA keycaps are kind of transparent, given so many GB ran nowadays. I don't think that Kono Store is doing crazy up-charging.
Anyway, thanks for your support!
Post by: Ensaum on Fri, 28 September 2018, 08:21:19
there are definitely other factors i.e. popularity and MOQ, but $53.99 for spacekeys is too much for me as well.
Agreed. For comparison, Carbon spacekeys opened at $30. The closest Carbon set to cadet is the mac kit which opened at $25. You can try and spin the pricing model and defend it all you want, but either kono or sp is gouging some of the kits in this set, and I think they would honestly hit a higher moq than "expected" if they were priced fairly. That's just my opinion though, and I'll have to pass on some kits, but I'm still getting Symbiosis. Just bummed I can't get all the kits I had planned.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 28 September 2018, 08:44:56
there are definitely other factors i.e. popularity and MOQ, but $53.99 for spacekeys is too much for me as well.
Agreed. For comparison, Carbon spacekeys opened at $30. The closest Carbon set to cadet is the mac kit which opened at $25. You can try and spin the pricing model and defend it all you want, but either kono or sp is gouging some of the kits in this set, and I think they would honestly hit a higher moq than "expected" if they were priced fairly. That's just my opinion though, and I'll have to pass on some kits, but I'm still getting Symbiosis. Just bummed I can't get all the kits I had planned.
I can't explain everything, and I don't know why Carbon spacekeys could start at $30. Months ago before any vendor got involved, the spacebars kit didn't have these 3u keys yet and I tried to get the quote from SP a few times. Even then the spacebars kit was quoted by SP to be more than $30 already at the corresponding Carbon $30 MOQ. I don't see a way that we could get same price like Carbon last year. I hope everything is cheap enough for you guys to buy happily, and I tried to do my best. I think I had talked to Kono Store seriously about this and this is the best we could work out.
Thanks for your feedbacks.
Post by: otanishock on Fri, 28 September 2018, 09:04:01
This for $39
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1994/3097/products/spacekeys.jpg?v=1537987573)
And this for $54. I mean come on guys. Eight keys for $39 and 10 keys for $54. These prices are nuts. I want to join but you guys can't be serious with the pricing for some of these kits right?
Post by: cijanzen on Fri, 28 September 2018, 09:15:08
I think if anyone really wants to find an answer, instead of complaining or thinking they are owed something, they should contact SP and get a quote for the kit they are concerned about and see what they say.
Sounds a bit harsh, but everyone is piling on here comparing old prices to new prices without any actual evidence. I’m not happy that the spacekeys cost this much either but it’s not fair to assume that Kono is making a killing on this kit.
Post by: sevenseacat on Fri, 28 September 2018, 09:20:02
Post by: Ensaum on Fri, 28 September 2018, 09:32:51
Can we not have a little trust in Kono and hhkbp2?
I don't distrust hhkbp2. If anything I feel sympathetic for him because of all the pricing drama. I'm mostly suspicious of SP at this point tbh.
At the end of the day there’s only so much that can be done if SP is saying this is the price.
instead of complaining or thinking they are owed something
I don't think questioning pricing that is significantly higher than past pricing is complaining or entitlement. The ability to raise alarm on this is vital to a free market and consumers are under absolutely no obligation to blindly accept a company's product/pricing.
Post by: cijanzen on Fri, 28 September 2018, 09:39:46
Can we not have a little trust in Kono and hhkbp2?
I don't distrust hhkbp2. If anything I feel sympathetic for him because of all the pricing drama. I'm mostly suspicious of SP at this point tbh.At the end of the day there’s only so much that can be done if SP is saying this is the price.
instead of complaining or thinking they are owed something
I don't think questioning pricing that is significantly higher than past pricing is complaining or entitlement. The ability to raise alarm on this is vital to a free market and consumers are under absolutely no obligation to blindly accept a company's product/pricing.
I agree with all of your points here and also think it’s SP that’s setting the bar.
I also had asked earlier for the price to be double checked on the spacekeys cause it seemed incorrect to me so I’m all for calling out what may seem like incorrect pricing. Kono and hhkbp2 verified that is what they were quoted from SP so I guess the only way to let SP know it’s not acceptable is to not buy those kits. Certainly that does suck for hhkbp2 who put in so much work creating these sets.
I think at this point though it doesn’t really make sense for everyone to keep talking in circles about set “x” having the spacekeys cheaper. That’s all I’m getting at.
Post by: beekey on Fri, 28 September 2018, 10:15:30
No idea if Kono is going to change price depending an number of sets.
I need 2 keys from the spacekeys set. Making this a deal breaker. Why buy any other kit, when I can‘t fit my layout? Just buy the alphas and find ohter sets to arange around it?
Post by: enrique.aliaga on Fri, 28 September 2018, 10:24:32
No idea if Kono is going to change price depending an number if sets.
They are not. Prices are fixed and will remain the same no matter how many sets are ordered. OP confirmed this a few posts back.
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Post by: Ensaum on Fri, 28 September 2018, 10:41:17
I think at this point though it doesn’t really make sense for everyone to keep talking in circles about set “x” having the spacekeys cheaper. That’s all I’m getting at.
Yeah, you're probably right there. At this point I'm just trying to decide if I want to shell out for Cadet because this is one of my endgame sets. It may be worth it in the end to overpay a little.
With GB done via Massdrop, at least the reduction points are transparent.
No idea if Kono is going to change price depending an number if sets.
I need 2 keys from the spacekeys set. Making this a deal breaker. Why buy any other kit, when I can‘t fit my layout? Just buy the alphas an find ohter sets to arange around it?They are not. Prices are fixed and will remain the same no matter how many sets are ordered. OP confirmed this a few posts back.
KeyClack may be a good option in the future too if Kono is unable to offer drop points. Massdrop is often backed up on sets and a lot of people don't really like Massdrop anyways.
Post by: vodan on Fri, 28 September 2018, 11:11:50
As for pricing on some of the sets...not necessarily saying that I fully agree with SP's pricing, but I used to work in manufacturing and honestly orders with small quantities always get shafted because the amount of work (ie labor/time/QA cost) gets divided over a much much smaller number, so the prices go way up. But personally I've been waiting for this to drop for quite a while, and it's my first GB since getting into this hobby, so I'm willing to pay a bit more than expected to get the sets I want.
Post by: beekey on Fri, 28 September 2018, 12:44:22
With GB done via Massdrop, at least the reduction points are transparent.I'm also not much of a Massdrop fan. I made the point of making it transparent. Even if this sells like hell, we will not get better prices.
No idea if Kono is going to change price depending an number if sets.
I need 2 keys from the spacekeys set. Making this a deal breaker. Why buy any other kit, when I can‘t fit my layout? Just buy the alphas an find other sets to arrange around it?They are not. Prices are fixed and will remain the same no matter how many sets are ordered. OP confirmed this a few posts back.
KeyClack may be a good option in the future too if Kono is unable to offer drop points. Massdrop is often backed up on sets and a lot of people don't really like Massdrop anyways.
If the original prices takes low initial MOQ into account, we would not benefit of higher numbers. They have almost no risk, and will benefit from the increased margin if it goes well.
Post by: dsaf on Fri, 28 September 2018, 15:07:50
Post by: OracleKev on Fri, 28 September 2018, 23:36:25
No idea if Kono is going to change price depending an number if sets.
They are not. Prices are fixed and will remain the same no matter how many sets are ordered. OP confirmed this a few posts back.
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Can OP comment on this? If prices are fixed, does that mean this will be limited quantity?
Want to overlook what appears to be pricing mistakes with Cadet and Spacekeys kits,
Too many pricing related weirdness makes me uneasy.
Post by: qq on Sat, 29 September 2018, 00:05:47
Show Image(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1994/3097/products/cadet.jpg?v=1537987573)
This for $39Show Image(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1994/3097/products/spacekeys.jpg?v=1537987573)
And this for $54. I mean come on guys. Eight keys for $39 and 10 keys for $54. These prices are nuts. I want to join but you guys can't be serious with the pricing for some of these kits right?
I love the set (as well as GMK space cadet) and will buy some kits anyway but I also was shocked when seeing the price of the cadet kit. All I want is a "Rub out" in place of "Cap locks" but the price wall is a no-no. So far, the alpha and game kits are most accessible and I think they would sell well.
Keyset prices are inflated and lead time will soon be in years. I am feeling we are in a monopoly of SP.
Post by: Tordp on Sat, 29 September 2018, 01:38:22
Is mykeyboard.eu still in business? There was no reaction on their website all this week... Buying from Kono is the safest, right? (I know there would be an extra customs charge for Europe)
I also buy directly from Kono even though I'm from EU. Did the same with SA Trouble Minds because it feels "safer" somehow...
Post by: KingOfMemes on Sat, 29 September 2018, 01:58:31
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sat, 29 September 2018, 02:41:04
No idea if Kono is going to change price depending an number if sets.
They are not. Prices are fixed and will remain the same no matter how many sets are ordered. OP confirmed this a few posts back.
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Can OP comment on this? If prices are fixed, does that mean this will be limited quantity?
Want to overlook what appears to be pricing mistakes with Cadet and Spacekeys kits,
Too many pricing related weirdness makes me uneasy.
We don't have price drops. Because it's too hard to do price drops and organize across 20+ kits and 3 vendors/proxies. There are 3 systems, 20+ SKUs, thousands of orders. It’s unpractical for support staff across 3 vendors/proxies to institute a manual price change on a product, then track down every individual order per SKU and manually refund each person. So it’s better to estimate where it will land. Once we add proxies, we lost flexibility.
As for the prices of Cadet kit and Spacekeys kit, Kono Store verified that they are correct. I made examples in previous posts to elaborate the price are not only about the number of keys, but also affected by other factors such as popularity and MOQ, fee on new legends, etc. It's counterintuitive at the first look. And this is the best price Kono Store could have.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sat, 29 September 2018, 02:47:42
Is mykeyboard.eu still in business? There was no reaction on their website all this week... Buying from Kono is the safest, right? (I know there would be an extra customs charge for Europe)
The GB is up on Zfrontier now for Asia and China. Mykeyboard should be there soon.
Post by: OracleKev on Sat, 29 September 2018, 02:49:21
No idea if Kono is going to change price depending an number if sets.
They are not. Prices are fixed and will remain the same no matter how many sets are ordered. OP confirmed this a few posts back.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Can OP comment on this? If prices are fixed, does that mean this will be limited quantity?
Want to overlook what appears to be pricing mistakes with Cadet and Spacekeys kits,
Too many pricing related weirdness makes me uneasy.
We don't have price drops. Because it's too hard to do price drops and organize across 20+ kits and 3 vendors/proxies. There are 3 systems, 20+ SKUs, thousands of orders. It’s unpractical for support staff across 3 vendors/proxies to institute a manual price change on a product, then track down every individual order per SKU and manually refund each person. So it’s better to estimate where it will land. Once we add proxies, we lost flexibility.
As for the prices of Cadet kit and Spacekeys kit, Kono Store verified that they are correct. I made examples in previous posts to elaborate the price are not only about the number of keys, but also affected by other factors such as popularity and MOQ, fee on new legends, etc. It's counterintuitive at the first look. And this is the best price Kono Store could have.
Gotcha. Thx for answering what must have been repetitive questions.
Post by: impaktor on Sat, 29 September 2018, 03:09:21
I'm curious as to what the thinking for the "40s" set is? Specifically the name "40s" got me stumped, as it seems to refer to something? (I've only been keeping an eye on the geekhack community until now, so maybe this is obvious to the rest?)
Also, I assume there are no printed Greek characters on the front of the keys, or they would have been shown, and would naturally have increased the price by much.
To those complaining about the price, just watch the Symbolics Space Cadet keyboard review (Honeywell Hall effect 4B3E) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDozftThFMw) video on repeat until you psyched yourselves to buy.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sat, 29 September 2018, 03:13:51
With GB done via Massdrop, at least the reduction points are transparent.I'm also not much of a Massdrop fan. I made the point of making it transparent. Even if this sells like hell, we will not get better prices.
No idea if Kono is going to change price depending an number if sets.
I need 2 keys from the spacekeys set. Making this a deal breaker. Why buy any other kit, when I can‘t fit my layout? Just buy the alphas an find other sets to arrange around it?They are not. Prices are fixed and will remain the same no matter how many sets are ordered. OP confirmed this a few posts back.
KeyClack may be a good option in the future too if Kono is unable to offer drop points. Massdrop is often backed up on sets and a lot of people don't really like Massdrop anyways.
If the original prices takes low initial MOQ into account, we would not benefit of higher numbers. They have almost no risk, and will benefit from the increased margin if it goes well.
I don't think it will be too hard for Kono Store or any other vendor to support drop points, if they work like Massdrop, without any proxy. They could just list the price drops and update the sold numbers of all kits every once in a while. One employee is enough to do this job. Even the very new vendor Techbuys, who ran SA Mechanist, has drop prices on it website. But it's too hard to perform drop prices if you organize across dozens of kits and many proxies, with each proxy having a different system. There are many systems, 20+ SKUs, thousands of orders. It’s unpractical for support staff across 3 vendors/proxies to institute a manual price change on a product, then track down every kit's sold number and every individual order per SKU and then manually refund each person. It's high risk for something to go wrong.
We need good proxy service indeed, especially for China. There were many problems happened between Massdrop and KP over the past years on proxying orders to China. Many members in Chinese keyboard community suffered from poor proxy service. I don't want it to happen again for this GB.
For a kit that has high price at start MOQ, it may help a little if we have some kind of transparency for buyers to feel, "Well, the start price is high but there could be chance more people will buy in and it will hit the next price drop", but we already saw what happened for the Modifiers kit of SA Green Screen in the end. It's not a game changer whether to have Massdrop way, or Kono way, else.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sat, 29 September 2018, 03:41:53
You're truly doing human kind a great service with this kit!
I'm curious as to what the thinking for the "40s" set is? Specifically the name "40s" got me stumped, as it seems to refer to something? (I've only been keeping an eye on the geekhack community until now, so maybe this is obvious to the rest?)
Also, I assume there are no printed Greek characters on the front of the keys, or they would have been shown, and would naturally have increased the price by much.
To those complaining about the price, just watch the Symbolics Space Cadet keyboard review (Honeywell Hall effect 4B3E) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDozftThFMw) video on repeat until you psyched yourselves to buy.
Thanks! Good advice of watching video. :)) :)) I like to hear feedbacks and do communication. Not taking these as complaining.
The name 40s means this kit as for many 40% keyboards, including JD40, Minivan, Pearl, Vortex, Golbat, Minorca, etc. The name 40s is there for a long time. You could find 40s kit happened in many previous GBs.
As for the front-printing Greek symbols, I planned to give it a try but later the idea was dropped. We won't have them in this GB.
Post by: impaktor on Sat, 29 September 2018, 04:04:57
Also, to nit-pick, I don't see it written clearly anywhere that it's Cherry MX-mount, as I assume it to be.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sat, 29 September 2018, 04:09:29
Thanks for clarification!
Also, to nit-pick, I don't see it written clearly anywhere that it's Cherry MX-mount, as I assume it to be.
Yes, it's of MX type. I will add something in this thread post.
Post by: 5inn3d- on Sat, 29 September 2018, 05:08:46
Post by: OracleKev on Sat, 29 September 2018, 05:38:07
is there a reason for the prices in zfrontier to be higher for every kit?
Probably due to their shipping policy - free for orders over $100.
Post by: qq on Sat, 29 September 2018, 07:32:30
To those complaining about the price, just watch the Symbolics Space Cadet keyboard review (Honeywell Hall effect 4B3E) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDozftThFMw) video on repeat until you psyched yourselves to buy.
Thanks for the video, Gosh, the classic space cadet keycaps were insanely thick double-shot, I couldn't imagine how it feels when typing on them :D
hhkbp2, thanks for the explanation. Just noticed your avatar is the SICP cover, happy hacking!
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sat, 29 September 2018, 07:38:52
To those complaining about the price, just watch the Symbolics Space Cadet keyboard review (Honeywell Hall effect 4B3E) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDozftThFMw) video on repeat until you psyched yourselves to buy.
Thanks for the video, Gosh, the classic space cadet keycaps were insanely thick double-shot, I couldn't imagine how it feels when typing on them :D
hhkbp2, thanks for the explanation. Just noticed your avatar is the SICP cover, happy hacking!
Your are the first person who noticed that(and said it loud). :))
Happy hacking!
Post by: otanishock on Sat, 29 September 2018, 08:15:23
Post by: impaktor on Sat, 29 September 2018, 08:33:44
Well, I assumed it would be too obvious to point out in a thread like this... Glad you chose the front of the cover and not the back picture of the Sussman+Abelson-thing/ composite image based on two fat balding men.hhkbp2, thanks for the explanation. Just noticed your avatar is the SICP cover, happy hacking!
Your are the first person who noticed that(and said it loud). :))
Happy hacking!
[attachimg=1]
Post by: mimalik on Sat, 29 September 2018, 13:32:41
Post by: heliar_mk on Sun, 30 September 2018, 05:57:11
Post by: mkarlsson on Sun, 30 September 2018, 06:28:42
Nice! What about South America customers? Don’t neglect us, please.
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Ey Enrique, just wondering, what layout do you guys normarly use? ISO, ANSI? Maybe it depends on the country?
Hey!
Spanish-speaking countries such as mine (Peru) use “Spanish-Latin America” layout, which is ISO. Most South American countries except Brazil use this layout. Brazil, being a Portuguese-speaking country, uses a Portuguese variant of ISO.
I am personally a US ANSI user, though, given my background as a programmer and Vim lover. I find using US ANSI much more natural in my field of work. This is a great advantage as a keyboard enthusiast, since I have much greater selection of keyboards and keycaps to choose from.
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Here in Spain we use “spanish - spain” ISO. But as you did I also switched, in my case to ISO uk.Sorry for the off topic
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 30 September 2018, 06:31:13
That means no more refund when GB closed whether the selling quantity？ :eek:
No. They are fixed prices. We are not running price drops with Kono Store/Zfrontier/Mykeyboard.
Post by: _ODIN_ on Sun, 30 September 2018, 06:38:44
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 30 September 2018, 06:49:33
Do you know when the mykeyboard link will be available?
Sorry, I don't know that for sure now. I usually talk to Kono Store only. And Andrew(from Kono Store) seems silent to my messages during weekends. Could you wait a bit longer please? I guess mykeyboard will be online soon. Will let you know if I get any update.
Post by: online on Sun, 30 September 2018, 11:04:35
I'm not sure where I'm gonna be after a year (I travel between Asia and Europe due to work), also, the markup on mykeyboard.eu seem high even added a import tax.
Post by: Lisinge on Sun, 30 September 2018, 16:09:27
Can order from zfronter international even if I'm in the UK?
I'm not sure where I'm gonna be after a year (I travel between Asia and Europe due to work), also, the markup on mykeyboard.eu seem high even added a import tax.
I've ordered from zfrontier to the EU before.
Post by: online on Sun, 30 September 2018, 17:58:34
And got shipped to you without problem?Can order from zfronter international even if I'm in the UK?
I'm not sure where I'm gonna be after a year (I travel between Asia and Europe due to work), also, the markup on mykeyboard.eu seem high even added a import tax.
I've ordered from zfrontier to the EU before.
if yes, I definitely going to order from zfrontier.
Post by: Lisinge on Mon, 01 October 2018, 12:27:12
And got shipped to you without problem?Can order from zfronter international even if I'm in the UK?
I'm not sure where I'm gonna be after a year (I travel between Asia and Europe due to work), also, the markup on mykeyboard.eu seem high even added a import tax.
I've ordered from zfrontier to the EU before.
if yes, I definitely going to order from zfrontier.
Yes! Shipping was really fast with DHL express too.
Post by: EightDiagram on Mon, 01 October 2018, 14:19:43
Settled on base+mods+blue spacebars as I'm trying to budget for Carbon R2 as well. Thanks hhkbp2 for making my first SA set happen! :thumb:
Post by: enrique.aliaga on Mon, 01 October 2018, 14:36:34
Here’s hope I can find a way around. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: online on Tue, 02 October 2018, 09:46:25
And got shipped to you without problem?Can order from zfronter international even if I'm in the UK?
I'm not sure where I'm gonna be after a year (I travel between Asia and Europe due to work), also, the markup on mykeyboard.eu seem high even added a import tax.
I've ordered from zfrontier to the EU before.
if yes, I definitely going to order from zfrontier.
Yes! Shipping was really fast with DHL express too.
Thanks for reply. ordered on zfrontier!
Post by: Fabi on Tue, 02 October 2018, 12:58:51
Just wanted to say, mykeyboard.eu now also lists the caps on their homepage.
Gesendet von meinem Pixel 2 XL mit Tapatalk
Post by: befbef on Tue, 02 October 2018, 15:33:30
Hi there,
Just wanted to say, mykeyboard.eu now also lists the caps on their homepage.
Oh yes, great prices.
I'll order from zfrontier.
Post by: BobCarltheThird on Tue, 02 October 2018, 20:58:33
Post by: hhkbp2 on Tue, 02 October 2018, 22:34:39
Hi there,
Just wanted to say, mykeyboard.eu now also lists the caps on their homepage.
It's strange that I couldn't see it visiting mykeyboard.eu.
Just to clarify, the spacebar kit contains the same keys as the blanks in the 40's kits? Both sets are concave rather then convex?
They're different since the Spacekeys kit contains only one key for each size but in two colors, while in 40s kit there are double keys for some size and only in one color. All short spacekeys are concave, because SP doesn't have convex tooling for them. Long spacebars, like 6.25, 7u are convex.
Post by: Elgo on Wed, 03 October 2018, 19:05:08
Thanks!!!
Post by: portbaron on Wed, 03 October 2018, 19:23:56
Hi all, noob here!!!! What combination should I buy for my new Input club Kira keyboard?Alphas + Modifiers + Numpad + Extension
Thanks!!!
Post by: Elgo on Fri, 05 October 2018, 13:26:40
Hi all, noob here!!!! What combination should I buy for my new Input club Kira keyboard?Alphas + Modifiers + Numpad + Extension
Thanks!!!
THX!
Post by: wtoe on Fri, 05 October 2018, 13:48:43
Post by: BobCarltheThird on Fri, 05 October 2018, 18:25:15
Any ETA on information regarding numbers of current orders vs MOQs?
It doesn't matter. We won't get a pricedrop in exchange for all kits being ran no matter the order numbers.
Post by: Starius on Fri, 05 October 2018, 18:32:45
Any ETA on information regarding numbers of current orders vs MOQs?
It doesn't matter. We won't get a pricedrop in exchange for all kits being ran no matter the order numbers.
Well, this is what they wrote in the latest Kono weekly update:
Quote
SA Symbiosis
Open until October 26. The Uniform R3 CADR set was added. Due to sales numbers and higher-than-expected interest on keyboard forums, we've dropped the price of Mods and Cadet keysets. Refunds for existing orders will be issued over the next few days.
Post by: wtoe on Fri, 05 October 2018, 18:43:57
Any ETA on information regarding numbers of current orders vs MOQs?
It doesn't matter. We won't get a pricedrop in exchange for all kits being ran no matter the order numbers.
I just wanna know if certain kits are on track to pass MOQ. Already accepted that prices won't change.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 05 October 2018, 22:33:32
I just wanna know if certain kits are on track to pass MOQ. Already accepted that prices won't change.
Just got a reply from Kono Store, that most kits are doing ok except a few like 40s, colevrak, nordeuk, cadr. And they will check the numbers with other proxies later. Zfrontier will be back in a few days since it's holiday of China National Day now.
Post by: Windeh on Fri, 05 October 2018, 23:23:41
I just wanna know if certain kits are on track to pass MOQ. Already accepted that prices won't change.
Just got a reply from Kono Store, that most kits are doing ok except a few like 40s, colevrak, nordeuk, cadr. And they will check the numbers with other proxies later. Zfrontier will be back in a few days since it's holiday of China National Day now.
Got an extra Alphas kit to go with the 40s. Do let us know if any kits are not going to make MOQ so we can make changes in our other kits.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 05 October 2018, 23:26:41
Got an extra Alphas kit to go with the 40s. Do let us know if any kit is not going to make MOQ so we can make changes in our other kits.
There is still time for the GB. I will make sure you have the time to change your order before the GB ends if any kit fails its MOQ.
Post by: impaktor on Sun, 07 October 2018, 11:09:30
2. Can one expect zFrontier to ship the product to EU in such a way that customs fees and charges are circumvented, or why else not buy cheaper directly from the source? I do see zFrontier offering free shipping, while Kono looks to charge $18, is this the main reason to choose it?
3. I'm not so sure mykeyboard is that "extra expensive," given the massive extra charge due to customs (+25% +fee for charging you), if ordering from Kono or zFrontier, to a country within the EU.
Please share your thoughts and experiences.
Post by: Fabi on Sun, 07 October 2018, 11:42:09
1. I assume people within the EU are reluctant to buy from mykeyboard.eu, given the markup in price, but why does many seem to go with zFrontier instead of buying directly from Kono, when zFrontier is about 5% more expensive than the former?I live in Germany and I ordered from mykeyboard.eu. Reason is, with my last orders from outside the EU I always had to deal with customs. For me that means approximately 20% taxes plus 2% customs fees (I think up to 30€ you don't have to pay taxes and customs, but I don't know the exact amount). Taxes are on the product price plus transportation fees by the way.
2. Can one expect zFrontier to ship the product to EU in such a way that customs fees and charges are circumvented, or why else not buy cheaper directly from the source? I do see zFrontier offering free shipping, while Kono looks to charge $18, is this the main reason to choose it?
3. I'm not so sure mykeyboard is that "extra expensive," given the massive extra charge due to customs (+25% +fee for charging you), if ordering from Kono or zFrontier, to a country within the EU.
Please share your thoughts and experiences.
On top you have to pick up your order at the nearest customs office or pay an additional 8€ or so to DHL for taking care of all these things for you.
To be honest, I haven't compared all the prices but for me the time and annoyance saving is worth the extra money.
Post by: befbef on Sun, 07 October 2018, 13:20:35
Post by: William_S_Jones on Sun, 07 October 2018, 23:01:44
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: impaktor on Mon, 08 October 2018, 11:19:40
Next German here: Usually i buy from mykeyboard if possible, but for this GB I'll take zfrontier. It's too much extra from mykeyboard. I haven't payed tax for earlier zfrontier orders. Not sure why, but even with tax it's much cheaper.But why then zFrontier when kono is even cheaper? Is it just because you're hoping the probability of getting screwed by customs is lower from zFrontier?
Post by: Nigolski on Mon, 08 October 2018, 17:56:18
Next German here: Usually i buy from mykeyboard if possible, but for this GB I'll take zfrontier. It's too much extra from mykeyboard. I haven't payed tax for earlier zfrontier orders. Not sure why, but even with tax it's much cheaper.But why then zFrontier when kono is even cheaper? Is it just because you're hoping the probability of getting screwed by customs is lower from zFrontier?
yeah
Post by: mimalik on Wed, 10 October 2018, 10:49:14
Post by: otanishock on Wed, 10 October 2018, 11:07:02
OP already stated that there won't be MOQ discounts so hmm I don't see how that might be necessary?Next German here: Usually i buy from mykeyboard if possible, but for this GB I'll take zfrontier. It's too much extra from mykeyboard. I haven't payed tax for earlier zfrontier orders. Not sure why, but even with tax it's much cheaper.But why then zFrontier when kono is even cheaper? Is it just because you're hoping the probability of getting screwed by customs is lower from zFrontier?
yeah
Post by: hhkbp2 on Wed, 10 October 2018, 20:43:36
Will it be possible to get some break down of to date orders placed?
We're not doing price drops for this GB.
I talked to Kono about the MOQs. For now most kits are doing ok to happen. The numbers on 40s, Ergodox, CADR, NordeUK are a bit low, but there's still time. We will make sure buyers have time to adjust their order if any kit fails MOQ.
Post by: Windeh on Thu, 11 October 2018, 02:47:27
Will it be possible to get some break down of to date orders placed?
We're not doing price drops for this GB.
I talked to Kono about the MOQs. For now most kits are doing ok to happen. The numbers on 40s, Ergodox, CADR, NordeUK are a bit low, but there's still time. We will make sure buyers have time to adjust their order if any kit fails MOQ.
Sounds good. Appreciate your work on this set!
Post by: vodan on Thu, 11 October 2018, 05:37:17
Will it be possible to get some break down of to date orders placed?
We're not doing price drops for this GB.
I talked to Kono about the MOQs. For now most kits are doing ok to happen. The numbers on 40s, Ergodox, CADR, NordeUK are a bit low, but there's still time. We will make sure buyers have time to adjust their order if any kit fails MOQ.
Thank you for checking! I wish I could pay more just so the ergodox set gets made...
Post by: equalunique on Thu, 11 October 2018, 10:25:01
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Post by: BobCarltheThird on Thu, 11 October 2018, 12:06:27
Will it be possible to get some break down of to date orders placed?
We're not doing price drops for this GB.
I talked to Kono about the MOQs. For now most kits are doing ok to happen. The numbers on 40s, Ergodox, CADR, NordeUK are a bit low, but there's still time. We will make sure buyers have time to adjust their order if any kit fails MOQ.
Thank you for checking! I wish I could pay more just so the ergodox set gets made...
I mean you could buy more then one kit...
Post by: wtoe on Thu, 11 October 2018, 17:01:21
Post by: bdkrzy on Thu, 11 October 2018, 18:13:17
Post by: vodan on Thu, 11 October 2018, 19:30:48
Will it be possible to get some break down of to date orders placed?
We're not doing price drops for this GB.
I talked to Kono about the MOQs. For now most kits are doing ok to happen. The numbers on 40s, Ergodox, CADR, NordeUK are a bit low, but there's still time. We will make sure buyers have time to adjust their order if any kit fails MOQ.
Thank you for checking! I wish I could pay more just so the ergodox set gets made...
I mean you could buy more then one kit...
may not be the worst idea. let me think about that...
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 14 October 2018, 00:35:13
Hi hhkp. I am really interested in picking up the spacebar kit but the prices seem a little bit on the higher end on that particular kit. Was just wondering if there is any chance of bumping it down? Thanks!
I'm afraid these are the prices for now. Not sure how the sale will go when the GB ends in two weeks later. It will not make much difference on the price of spacebars kits even if the sold numbers go far beyond current ones and all vendors/proxies decides to take them to the next MOQ prices. It would be just 2 dollars or so. I suggest buying it right now, or not, as you like.
Post by: t8c on Sun, 14 October 2018, 14:12:30
Post by: impaktor on Sun, 14 October 2018, 14:36:28
Ordered NORDE, cadet and numpad!As a fellow countryman, might I ask you if you used zFrontier or Kono or mykeyboard? The last option seem crazy expensive, as one will be paying custom fees twice (US -> EU, EU -> NO)
Post by: Lisinge on Sun, 14 October 2018, 15:49:06
Ordered NORDE, cadet and numpad!As a fellow countryman, might I ask you if you used zFrontier or Kono or mykeyboard? The last option seem crazy expensive, as one will be paying custom fees twice (US -> EU, EU -> NO)
SWE here, i ordered through zfrontier. It's simply too much of a markup on mykeyboard to justify it. I would def do the same if i were you.
Post by: Jkush463 on Sun, 14 October 2018, 21:13:08
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 14 October 2018, 22:56:00
jumped in for 7 kits man that hurt but great set so whatever.
Thanks for your support! I understand the prices might be not ideal and there are so many other great keyset GBs running/coming, which divides the audience far more than before. The support from everyone of you is important to this GB.
Post by: Hamel on Sun, 14 October 2018, 23:12:02
Post by: Troif on Mon, 15 October 2018, 00:35:56
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Post by: M on Mon, 15 October 2018, 00:37:46
When this GB ends?
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October 26
Post by: impaktor on Mon, 15 October 2018, 14:28:41
Quote from: hhkbp2
Thanks for your support! I understand the prices might be not ideal and there are so many other great keyset running/comingNone more worthy to a true Emacs warrior!
I'm also going to go (for me) very heavy into this GB, as I'll definitely buy both the CADR and Alpha-set + a number of the modifier sets (no space bars though, I'm a Kinesis/dactyl-user), as soon as I figure out which of the modifiers I want/need.
To me, this is the "rest of my life" keycap set to get. The only one that could rival it, is yet another Symbolics/Symbiosis run (e.g. maybe dyesub PBT, greek letters on front?).
Quote from: Lisinge
SWE here, i ordered through zfrontier. It's simply too much of a markup on mykeyboard to justify it. I would def do the same if i were you.But zFrontier also mark up the price from Kono, and both are outside EU, but you're hoping your package will more probably "slip through" customs, in the ever growing tide of packages from China, compared to if you buy from Kono directly? Or is it the free shipping option that favors zFronter over Kono?
Post by: Lisinge on Mon, 15 October 2018, 14:59:48
Quote from: Lisinge
SWE here, i ordered through zfrontier. It's simply too much of a markup on mykeyboard to justify it. I would def do the same if i were you.But zFrontier also mark up the price from Kono, and both are outside EU, but you're hoping your package will more probably "slip through" customs, in the ever growing tide of packages from China, compared to if you buy from Kono directly? Or is it the free shipping option that favors zFronter over Kono?
[/quote]
It's like a difference of a couble of bucks per kit. That doesn't bother me that much lol.
Reply to your order confirmation and ask them to mark the parcel down. I've ordered from them before and they marked it down and it slipped through customs.
Even if they don't mark down, the price incl. taxes is still cheaper than from mykeyboard.
Post by: enrique.aliaga on Mon, 15 October 2018, 17:22:21
Could front-legends make an appearance on a theoretical Symbiosis R3?
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Post by: equalunique on Mon, 15 October 2018, 17:24:31
@hhkbp2 I’m curious... Why was the idea of having front-facing Greek legends like the original Space Cadet dropped? Is it not technically doable? Or is too expensive? Or is there any other reason?I would definitely be in for R3 if front-facing legends are part of it.
Could front-legends make an appearance on a theoretical Symbiosis R3?
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Post by: befbef on Mon, 15 October 2018, 17:44:05
Is there a chance you will run a symbiosis in another color anytime?
Not that i wouldn't like the colors (already ordered this), but since the molds are available wouldn't it be relatively easy to rerun this with other colors?
Post by: hhkbp2 on Mon, 15 October 2018, 22:19:26
@hhkbp2 I’m curious... Why was the idea of having front-facing Greek legends like the original Space Cadet dropped? Is it not technically doable? Or is too expensive? Or is there any other reason?I would definitely be in for R3 if front-facing legends are part of it.
Could front-legends make an appearance on a theoretical Symbiosis R3?
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I explained it in the IC page before. It's doable from technical point of view. The idea of front-printing Geek legends was dropped because 1. it requires more work from SP and it would lead to higher price, and we don't have enough interest in the keyset. Without a big amount of buyers, it would be too expensive adding fronting printing. 2. The Geek letters on the Space-Cadet keyboard are in free hand-written style. It's not neat or unified like the APL legends. I draw a few sketches for the Geek legends and found they didn't look as nice as I thought. The PETSCII legends on SA Retro are unified and look nice.
I have no idea why you mentioned it to add front-printing to the flat version. Not a lot of people like all R3 version nowadays. And the price of a keyset kit depends on its sold number in significant measure. Given the fact that the sold number of CADR is struggling with MOQ for now. It's not practical to add front-printing legends to it and then price is raised more.
Post by: enrique.aliaga on Mon, 15 October 2018, 22:50:59
I have no idea why you mentioned it to add front-printing to the flat version. Not a lot of people like all R3 version nowadays. And the price of a keyset kit depends on its sold number in significant measure. Given the fact that the sold number of CADR is struggling with MOQ for now. It's not practical to add front-printing legends to it and then price is raised more.
Sorry if R3 was ambiguous. I was referring to “Round 3”, not Row 3.
Thanks for the rest of your explanation. It makes perfect sense. I just wish we could get front-legends on a next round of this Color Scheme.
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Post by: hhkbp2 on Mon, 15 October 2018, 23:00:54
Sorry if R3 was ambiguous. I was referring to “Round 3”, not Row 3.
Thanks for the rest of your explanation. It makes perfect sense. I just wish we could get front-legends on a next round of this Color Scheme.
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Oh. Round 3. I have no plan for it now.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Mon, 15 October 2018, 23:25:29
@hhkbp2:
Is there a chance you will run a symbiosis in another color anytime?
Not that i wouldn't like the colors (already ordered this), but since the molds are available wouldn't it be relatively easy to rerun this with other colors?
Sorry I don't have any further plan now. I know there are other color themes in other Lisp Machine/Symbolics keyboards, like all white on blue in SAIL keyboard, white on gray/black in Symbolics 3600 keyboards, etc. But the Space-Cadet cream/gray/blue theme is the crown jewel, so it's what we mainly have in this design/GB.
As for rerun in the future, I guess it would be several years later even if it would happen in the end. To run a GB with vendors, usually there is some kind of agreement between the designer and vendors that prohibits the rerun very soon in order to preserve the GB's sale. Since I just asked the permission from xblackdog to run this Round 2, I'm not sure whether I'm the one to run Round 3, even though I will rebuild the legends(molds) in this Round 2. So it's too faraway for me to talk about Round 3 in the future. And prior to a keyset GB, there is usually an IC which takes months or even years. It's not that easy like anytime.
Post by: Starius on Tue, 16 October 2018, 14:57:55
Ouch, that's a pricey meatball! But, I don't think many would disagree that this is going to be one classy set.
And though I'm getting more keys than I need to do so, I'm really looking forward to trying this set out on my future S7 Elephant keyboard.
Post by: mkarlsson on Tue, 16 October 2018, 16:23:10
I ordered Alphas, Modifiers, Numpad, Blue Choices, Gray Choices, Blue Spacebars, Cadet, and Extension kits.
Ouch, that's a pricey meatball! But, I don't think many would disagree that this is going to be one classy set.
And though I'm getting more keys than I need to do so, I'm really looking forward to trying this set out on my future S7 Elephant keyboard.
It’s gonna look stunning on the S7. Good choice!
Post by: M on Tue, 16 October 2018, 22:07:55
this render shows a row 2 "III" cap but when I look at the choices kits it's nowhere to be found...
(https://i.imgur.com/N8I5quP.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/xMNNPTk.jpg)
Post by: hhkbp2 on Tue, 16 October 2018, 22:27:49
Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/SXTb6LN.png)
this render shows a row 2 "III" cap but when I look at the choices kits it's nowhere to be found...
It's a mistake in the renders. The kit pictures are precise. For Blue Choice kit, there is only hand cluster in the navigate area like:
(https://i.imgur.com/QoiZXng.jpg)
Post by: wtoe on Thu, 18 October 2018, 18:10:36
Quote from: Kono Weekly Update
SA Symbiosis
Open until October 26.
:-X No MOQ/purchase numbers at barely over a week left?
Post by: equalunique on Mon, 22 October 2018, 10:58:16
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Post by: bcbishop on Mon, 22 October 2018, 14:24:34
Now the wait begins. (First for my white CA66, and then the caps themselves...)
Post by: Audiobs on Mon, 22 October 2018, 15:39:37
Imagine spending ~$200 just for the keys to complete a HHKB layout 60%.
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And nearly a year wait...
Post by: lekashman on Mon, 22 October 2018, 18:07:15
https://kono.store/products/sa-symbiosis-keycaps
We are getting close to the end of the Group Buy and I have a few Kono updates.
All the sets except for CADR have performed approximately according to our pricing model - which means all of the sets (Except CADR) will be produced. Some sets were a little above the model, others a little below - but our estimates were accurate across the board. CADR is a bit of a complex set - since it is easily the most expensive one in the group buy and it uses all R3 keycaps so there is little crossover with other sets. There are a few days left in the group buy - so if people are interested in seeing CADR made - we would require approximately additional 20 additional sets to be purchased. If this doesn't happen over the next four days - we will refund all purchasers of CADR.
Our next steps will be to ensure that all of the colors are perfectly matched and that our production date for next July stays accurate. We will plan to place a purchase order for the entire group buy at the beginning of next week and then move to a "pre-order" phase on Kono for extras. During the pre-order - the prices will be slightly higher than during the group buy and there will be actual inventory limits as it is based on the actual number of kits we purchase + any extra inventory ordered by Kono.
We will keep the group updated via email as updates come in as well as via forum posts here and on Keebtalk - https://www.keebtalk.com/t/sa-symbiosis-r2/3548
If you purchased your Symbiosis kit via zFrontier or mykeyboard.eu - please contact them directly if you have questions.
Thanks for participating everyone - now the wait begins!
Post by: obertau on Mon, 22 October 2018, 20:04:58
Post by: laserbeamspewpew on Mon, 22 October 2018, 21:40:50
Imagine spending ~$200 just for the keys to complete a HHKB layout 60%.
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I don't have to imagine. This is what I'm planning: https://imgur.com/a/VXvHsZz
Cost me $275 =(
Post by: Jkush463 on Mon, 22 October 2018, 21:50:04
them hurts i didnt get much more for 300$Imagine spending ~$200 just for the keys to complete a HHKB layout 60%.
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I don't have to imagine. This is what I'm planning: https://imgur.com/a/VXvHsZz
Cost me $275 =(
Post by: Audiobs on Mon, 22 October 2018, 22:10:57
Imagine spending ~$200 just for the keys to complete a HHKB layout 60%.
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I don't have to imagine. This is what I'm planning: https://imgur.com/a/VXvHsZz
Cost me $275 =(
Hope you still want this exact colorway one year from now... :) I am still deciding which set to order.
Post by: William_S_Jones on Tue, 23 October 2018, 07:45:44
I hope extras are available when production completes. It’s a beautiful set, just don’t want to go overboard w/ 
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Post by: cijanzen on Tue, 23 October 2018, 20:27:59
Post by: hhkbp2 on Tue, 23 October 2018, 20:48:16
Quote from: Kono Weekly UpdateSA Symbiosis
Open until October 26.
:-X No MOQ/purchase numbers at barely over a week left?
I talked to Kono about this. Almost all kits are gonna happen, and the sold numbers will not be showed for this GB.
If we are in for CADR and it fails will there be time for us to change to other orders? How will that be handled?
As Andrew said in his previous post, the order will be refunded. Since there are not many CADR buyers, and only part of them might change their orders in this case, it seems fine to simply refund so that the whole GB could move forward fast to the next phase. But anyway I will check with Andrew to see whether it's ok to have some time for you to change your order.
I hate I can’t join this GB, I just paid $290 for a set
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There will be extras available in Kono Store after the GB closes, but I'm not sure whether they are still available when it finishes production one year later. I guess you still have the chance the grab some kits in a few months.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Tue, 23 October 2018, 20:58:50
I don't have to imagine. This is what I'm planning: https://imgur.com/a/VXvHsZz
Cost me $275 =(
Share time. :p This is what I will go for my MX HHKB layout keyboards.
(https://i.imgur.com/SAWoQBb.jpg)
Post by: wtoe on Tue, 23 October 2018, 21:23:54
Thank you hhkbp2 for bringing this to market! The space cadet look has been my most desired setup since finding this hobby.
Post by: ZyBeR on Wed, 24 October 2018, 09:42:03
I get a feeling it might look a bit weird as all other alphas have dual signs but the three accent keys don't.
Post by: impaktor on Wed, 24 October 2018, 15:09:49
If CADR doesn't happen, I'll likely like to withdraw some of the modifier sets I've ordered. Would be a real shame if CADR doesn't happen.
I have a lingering feeling that Kono, by having fixed prices, get all upside, and no downside: i.e. a set doesn't get into profitable quantity, -- they pull the plugg. A set "over-sells" -- they reap the benefits. I don't mean to sound... I was going to say "ungrateful", but lord knows we're paying for it so, not the right word here...
Quote from: cijanzen
Does anybody want to split a spacekeys kit with me? I want the grey spacekeys but don’t need the blue ones. I’d cover shipping if anyone’s interested.if CADR gets made, I won't be using the space bar, so it's up for grabs. As are German-specific keys.
Post by: William_S_Jones on Wed, 24 October 2018, 15:41:35
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Post by: impaktor on Wed, 24 October 2018, 15:47:17
Thanks, appreciate it, I plan to pick up the $210 uniform ...But there won't be a uniform key set at all, unless you (and a few more) order it now, as I understood previous posts.
Post by: Jkush463 on Wed, 24 October 2018, 17:00:55
Post by: FearsomeCubedWarrior on Wed, 24 October 2018, 17:07:15
Post by: William_S_Jones on Wed, 24 October 2018, 17:17:30
some of these people commenting i dont think understand what there doing/saying lolHow is that? Never mind, I get it JKush463, I didn’t follow all this post’s comments. It’s on me, so my apologies.
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Post by: William_S_Jones on Wed, 24 October 2018, 17:22:38
pulled the trigger for alphas and 40%.I take it you use an ortho 40%
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Post by: William_S_Jones on Wed, 24 October 2018, 17:23:39
Darn my apologies, I havent followed the whole post, just pointed out what I’d like when extras are available, my apologiesThanks, appreciate it, I plan to pick up the $210 uniform ...But there won't be a uniform key set at all, unless you (and a few more) order it now, as I understood previous posts.
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Post by: FearsomeCubedWarrior on Thu, 25 October 2018, 03:49:10
Post by: William_S_Jones on Thu, 25 October 2018, 07:32:06
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Post by: bdkrzy on Thu, 25 October 2018, 14:23:23
Post by: FearsomeCubedWarrior on Thu, 25 October 2018, 15:18:13
Post by: vonswoopington on Fri, 26 October 2018, 00:19:57
Is it true that zFrontier will have their own price breakpoint at each MOQ hit while us US proxy won't do that?I need to know this as well.
Post by: Windeh on Fri, 26 October 2018, 00:34:17
Post by: qq on Fri, 26 October 2018, 02:23:54
Ordered CADR and Alpha set and some modifier sets (40, ortho, and NoDe), from zFrontier, and hoping to use them for two keyboard builds.
If CADR doesn't happen, I'll likely like to withdraw some of the modifier sets I've ordered. Would be a real shame if CADR doesn't happen.
I have a lingering feeling that Kono, by having fixed prices, get all upside, and no downside: i.e. a set doesn't get into profitable quantity, -- they pull the plugg. A set "over-sells" -- they reap the benefits. I don't mean to sound... I was going to say "ungrateful", but lord knows we're paying for it so, not the right word here...
It's not my problem since I've ordered only alphas, mods, and extensions but I have the same feeling as well. By not disclosing MOQ, the vendor said it commits to producing all kits. Now, they are saying CADR struggles for MOQ and may not make it. I understand the vendor is not obligated to do so, but buyers in a GB may expect more than this.
Post by: wtoe on Fri, 26 October 2018, 06:28:44
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 26 October 2018, 06:39:31
When is/was the timeframe where Kono was making it clear which kits weren't going to pass, so that buyers could alter their orders? Their weekly updates on this GB have not been very helpful.
I talked to Andrew two days ago and he said he would post about letting CADR buyers to adjust their orders in one day or two after the GB closes if CADR doesn't happen.
I will check with him about the price points, how CADR's doing, etc.
Post by: bdkrzy on Fri, 26 October 2018, 07:23:22
I talked to Andrew two days ago and he said he would post about letting CADR buyers to adjust their orders in one day or two after the GB closes if CADR doesn't happen.
I will check with him about the price points, how CADR's doing, etc.
Apologies for being straightforward, but it was just a bit confusing how kono store handles this. On one hand, they don't offer pricebreak for each MOQ hit since they said they already "considered" that into the price. But on the other hand, for kits that potentially not going to make it like the CADR, they would not let it go through. It's a win-win for the vendor and not very fair for the buyers. If we are charged with premium with no breakpoint, I expect all kits to be made since the prices already factor in everything. I remember one of the reason kono store would not off price breakpoint was due to the complexity across different vendors, and I completely understand that. However, it seems like zFrontier still manages to do it and offers breakpoint for their buyers. I just don't see why Kono couldn't do the same?
Post by: MikeTheTiger on Fri, 26 October 2018, 08:31:21
I talked to Andrew two days ago and he said he would post about letting CADR buyers to adjust their orders in one day or two after the GB closes if CADR doesn't happen.
I will check with him about the price points, how CADR's doing, etc.
Apologies for being straightforward, but it was just a bit confusing how kono store handles this. On one hand, they don't offer pricebreak for each MOQ hit since they said they already "considered" that into the price. But on the other hand, for kits that potentially not going to make it like the CADR, they would not let it go through. It's a win-win for the vendor and not very fair for the buyers. If we are charged with premium with no breakpoint, I expect all kits to be made since the prices already factor in everything. I remember one of the reason kono store would not off price breakpoint was due to the complexity across different vendors, and I completely understand that. However, it seems like zFrontier still manages to do it and offers breakpoint for their buyers. I just don't see why Kono couldn't do the same?
I bought a few kits because I wanted to outfit a few of my boards. It is kinda weird for a GB to not disclose information about price breaks, although I wasn’t worried too much about that. I think it’s kind of out of the hands of hhkbp2, as Kono is running the buy. There should have been better communication from Kono themselves. I emailed them a while back about a different set I had questions about and they were pretty prompt on replying. I hope they can clear these questions up before the buy is over.
Post by: bdkrzy on Fri, 26 October 2018, 10:29:36
I bought a few kits because I wanted to outfit a few of my boards. It is kinda weird for a GB to not disclose information about price breaks, although I wasn’t worried too much about that. I think it’s kind of out of the hands of hhkbp2, as Kono is running the buy. There should have been better communication from Kono themselves. I emailed them a while back about a different set I had questions about and they were pretty prompt on replying. I hope they can clear these questions up before the buy is over.
Yea no I totally agree with you. In the end, Kono is the vendor so they have all rights to practice any kind of pricing as they wish. Totally agree that hhkp2 has nothing to do with this, and I never brought him in. I just hope Kono could be more transparent with all the pricing and breakpoints and all. I mean I'm not complaining or anything as I already purchased a few kits myself but seeing other vendor could establish a breakpoint while we can't just makes me feel a little bit unfair that's all.
Post by: MikeTheTiger on Fri, 26 October 2018, 10:52:32
I bought a few kits because I wanted to outfit a few of my boards. It is kinda weird for a GB to not disclose information about price breaks, although I wasn’t worried too much about that. I think it’s kind of out of the hands of hhkbp2, as Kono is running the buy. There should have been better communication from Kono themselves. I emailed them a while back about a different set I had questions about and they were pretty prompt on replying. I hope they can clear these questions up before the buy is over.
Yea no I totally agree with you. In the end, Kono is the vendor so they have all rights to practice any kind of pricing as they wish. Totally agree that hhkp2 has nothing to do with this, and I never brought him in. I just hope Kono could be more transparent with all the pricing and breakpoints and all. I mean I'm not complaining or anything as I already purchased a few kits myself but seeing other vendor could establish a breakpoint while we can't just makes me feel a little bit unfair that's all.
No, I totally agree with you too. I understand Kono is a business and was comfortable with the prices. It's just a little perculiar that another vendor has price breaks.
Post by: clorex on Fri, 26 October 2018, 11:52:30
I remember one of the reason kono store would not off price breakpoint was due to the complexity across different vendors, and I completely understand that. However, it seems like zFrontier still manages to do it and offers breakpoint for their buyers. I just don't see why Kono couldn't do the same?
Where are the zFrontier price break points posted? I don't see it on their English nor Chinese GB pages.
Post by: bdkrzy on Fri, 26 October 2018, 12:52:55
Where are the zFrontier price break points posted? I don't see it on their English nor Chinese GB pages.
It was in one of their weekly updates. https://en.zfrontier.com/blogs/project-updates/project-updates-oct-23-2018
Post by: clorex on Fri, 26 October 2018, 14:04:04
But it just says *some* kits have unlocked a lower price point and that zFrontier will refund the difference after the GB ends.
Where are the zFrontier price break points posted? I don't see it on their English nor Chinese GB pages.
It was in one of their weekly updates. https://en.zfrontier.com/blogs/project-updates/project-updates-oct-23-2018
Which kits will be cheaper, and by how much, we still don't know. At least at Kono, you get to see how much you'll be paying upfront (and avoid losing CC fees in the refund).
I'm assuming zFrontier will just be refunding the price difference between them and Kono, since Kono reduced their prices for some kits early on whereas zFrontier did not.
Post by: bdkrzy on Fri, 26 October 2018, 15:50:45
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 28 October 2018, 00:59:13
1. CADR will be made. So we succeeded to make all kits happen, no more order adjustment is necessary due to MOQ failure.
2. The price points issue that Zfrontier mentioned before was due to communication mistakes.
3. The GB was closed and it's moved to "pre-order" phase. You could still buy the available kits but the prices would be higher than what's in GB phase.
4. The production order is about to placed to SP
Kono(or Zfrontier) will handle the issue and post updates later. I beg your understanding and pardon for all the issues and confusion.
Thanks for everyone who gave feedback, contributed, helped or joined this project(GB/pre-order). We succeeded to make all kits! Cheers!
Post by: William_S_Jones on Sun, 28 October 2018, 01:44:23
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Post by: impaktor on Sun, 28 October 2018, 06:55:37
CADR will be made. So we succeeded to make all kits happen, no more order adjustment is necessary due to MOQ failure.Fantastic! Thanks!
Thanks for everyone who gave feedback, contributed, helped or joined this project(GB/pre-order). We succeeded to make all kits! Cheers!
Not sure if this is the place to announce this, but: I can already now say that I'll be happy to trade out my CADR space bar, and any german specific keys that don't overlap with scandinavian, from the NorDe kit. Also, if anyone has an extra 1u Top or 1u Greek, or 2u blank R3, I'm interested in buying/trading, once we get the kits, just send me a PM. Also, I'll have a lot of 1.5 u keys I don't need.
Post by: qq on Sun, 28 October 2018, 08:40:50
1. CADR will be made. So we succeeded to make all kits happen, no more order adjustment is necessary due to MOQ failure.
2. The price points issue that Zfrontier mentioned before was due to communication mistakes.
3. The GB was closed and it's moved to "pre-order" phase. You could still buy the available kits but the prices would be higher than what's in GB phase.
4. The production order is about to placed to SP
Thank you for the update. We understand your situation. If the kits are still available till Q2 next year, I may consider grabbing more :p
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 28 October 2018, 20:38:47
Would it be possible to get a render with Nordic keys?
I get a feeling it might look a bit weird as all other alphas have dual signs but the three accent keys don't.
Sorry I don't know what's the proper way to put those Nordic keys in usage. I don't have the time to do the render now neither. Maybe you could take a look at what's in R6 pictures and see how they feels?
R6 pictures (https://deskthority.net/photos-f62/round-6-the-cappening-t15386.html)
Keep in mind that the legends might be different more or less. But it should be enough to give you the brief feel .
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 16 November 2018, 08:43:00
Quote
We have order acknowledgement from Signature Plastics. We expect these arrive at our warehouse in August 2019.
Post by: Starius on Fri, 16 November 2018, 09:29:44
But well worth it.
Post by: mimalik on Fri, 16 November 2018, 12:41:23
The order had been placed to SP. Refer to Kono Store Weekly Update (11/15):QuoteWe have order acknowledgement from Signature Plastics. We expect these arrive at our warehouse in August 2019.
woot woot, thats gonna be a long wait, but GMK Space Cadet will be delivered by Jan/Feb so that will keep me happy till then.
Post by: crykn on Fri, 16 November 2018, 20:54:07
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 16 November 2018, 21:13:39
How long will preorders be open?
Kono Store ordered some extra kits when they placed the order to SP. These kits will be available util they are sold out, as pre-order, or as real product after SP delivers.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Tue, 29 January 2019, 05:15:11
I just checked with Kono that SP would make some samples for Symbiosis after Troubled Minds is done in a few weeks. I will keep updating if there is any news or progress. Thanks for your support and patience!
Happy Chinese New Year!
Post by: cyriously on Tue, 29 January 2019, 09:19:21
It says pre-order, so I should be fine right?
Will zF have the extras too (supposedly will be shipped by Kono)?
Sorry for asking it here! Because zF customer support is near non-existent.
Post by: Starius on Tue, 29 January 2019, 09:22:45
I'm still very much looking forward to this set, as I'm planning to use it on my S7 Elephant.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: hhkbp2 on Tue, 29 January 2019, 09:44:46
Bought the kits some weeks ago in zF.
It says pre-order, so I should be fine right?
Will zF have the extras too (supposedly will be shipped by Kono)?
Sorry for asking it here! Because zF customer support is near non-existent.
Both Kono and zFrontier ordered a few extra kits for their pre-order sale after the GB closed. And Kono acts as the main vendor to summarize all the numbers/money and then place the order to SP. Your order should be fine as long as you placed your order successfully in ZF.
Don't worry about asking any question here. I will try my best to answer your question and to help.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Tue, 29 January 2019, 10:06:32
Thanks for the update! Even in times of little actual progress, just keeping in touch is appreciated!
I'm still very much looking forward to this set, as I'm planning to use it on my S7 Elephant.
That's what's in my mind too to keep updating.
This keyset should be a good match to keyboards that has retro looks, like S7 Elephant. I plan to use it on another retro keyboard kit myself. ;D
Post by: Starius on Tue, 29 January 2019, 10:39:20
I plan to use it on another retro keyboard kit myself. ;D
Oooooh, which one? Or is it a surprise? :D
😁
Post by: hhkbp2 on Tue, 29 January 2019, 10:45:30
Oooooh, which one? Or is it a surprise? :D
😁
It's gonna take a long time to wait before we could get this keyset in our hands. I would rather not to uncover my keyboard for now. I might show it at the end after it's built. :p
Post by: Starius on Tue, 29 January 2019, 11:19:00
Oooooh, which one? Or is it a surprise? :D
😁
It's gonna take a long time to wait before we could get this keyset in our hands. I would rather not to uncover my keyboard for now. I might show it at the end after it's built. :p
Fair enough!
I do appreciate a grand unveiling! :D
Post by: zepled112 on Wed, 30 January 2019, 22:42:22
Post by: hhkbp2 on Wed, 30 January 2019, 22:53:21
I really wish I wasn't broke right now, too many good drops going on at once.
You could join in later since the pre-order is still available. :))
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 03 March 2019, 04:28:32
I received a picture of color samples from Kono:
Color Samples (https://imgur.com/a/J4CQfqB)
The colors look fine.
I noticed that the F1 legend is in small legend, which is wrong. In real production, the F row should have bigger function legends. It's in the specifications that I sent to Kono and SP. Since Kono is talking to SP most of the time after the GB was scheduled, I had told Kono to make sure that SP will read the specifications before production and use bigger function legends for real products.
There is no sample for the cadet legends(alphas, hands & Romans) yet. Kind of surprise to me, because they are the main reason that I called for samples, which was elaborated several times before. Anyway Kono will re-ask SP to make them. I will update if they happen later.
Post by: whalematrontron on Sun, 03 March 2019, 04:43:15
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 03 March 2019, 04:52:34
Definitely interested in it but having to buy through zfrontier is putting me off - heard some pretty negative things about them
Don't want to defend zfrontier, it's just most the negative things happened after the GB closed. I guess you could buy it in Kono, which probably costs you more on shipping. Anyway I could understand because I'm a customer of many vendors myself. Thanks for your support!
Post by: cijanzen on Sun, 03 March 2019, 07:37:11
Update:
I received a picture of color samples from Kono:
Color Samples (https://imgur.com/a/J4CQfqB)
The colors look fine.
I noticed that the F1 legend is in small legend, which is wrong. In real production, the F row should have bigger function legends. It's in the specifications that I sent to Kono and SP. Since Kono is talking to SP most of the time after the GB was scheduled, I had told Kono to make sure that SP will read the specifications before production and use bigger function legends for real products.
There is no sample for the cadet legends(alphas, hands & Romans) yet. Kind of surprise to me, because they are the main reason that I called for samples, which was elaborated several times before. Anyway Kono will re-ask SP to make them. I will update if they happen later.
Colours do indeed look great! Thanks for the updates and thanks for being persistent with both Kono and SP as I think it’s important that you’re satisfied with the final results.
Post by: Starius on Sun, 03 March 2019, 07:38:25
Definitely interested in it but having to buy through zfrontier is putting me off - heard some pretty negative things about themJust to chime in, I've ordered from ZFrontier only twice, but am happy with both experiences. One time was just for a keycap set, but the other was the group buy for the Alf X3 Renova. There was no communication throughout the waiting process of the Renova, however I did get personal communication when it was discovered one of my options on the board was wrong. (I had chosen 3 Led Lamps on the cover, but they did the Renova logo instead.) They were excellent on their communication of this matter, and offered to urge ALF to correct this if I wasn't happy with it. However, I opted to accept it as is.
At that same time, some other people had received their Renovas in somewhat damaged states due to inadequate shipping protection, and I took that time to raise the issue with my Zfrontier contact. He said he wasn't aware of the issue, but seemed concerned and was going to address it with his logistics team.
I don't know what became of that, but my Renova's box was damaged upon receiving it too - but thankfully no apparent damage to the contents on the inside. (Other than a slight dent to the metal shroud protecting the bluetooth chip on the pcb)
So my personal opinion is, there is probably little likely to go wrong with getting keycap sets from them. For bigger stuff like keyboards, you run a greater risk due to the greater distances it must presumably travel to get to you. I'd be perfectly happy dealing with them again, myself, but I've not heard any of these other negative comments you mention. Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth.
Post by: menuhin on Sun, 03 March 2019, 11:23:36
Update:
I received a picture of color samples from Kono:
Color Samples (https://imgur.com/a/J4CQfqB)
The colors look fine.
I noticed that the F1 legend is in small legend, which is wrong. In real production, the F row should have bigger function legends. It's in the specifications that I sent to Kono and SP. Since Kono is talking to SP most of the time after the GB was scheduled, I had told Kono to make sure that SP will read the specifications before production and use bigger function legends for real products.
There is no sample for the cadet legends(alphas, hands & Romans) yet. Kind of surprise to me, because they are the main reason that I called for samples, which was elaborated several times before. Anyway Kono will re-ask SP to make them. I will update if they happen later.
Thanks for the QC work
Please make sure the F1 is F1 but not some sort of F l
Post by: bardomudo on Sun, 03 March 2019, 12:37:11
Post by: oldcat on Sun, 03 March 2019, 16:09:52
Thanks for the update! Even in times of little actual progress, just keeping in touch is appreciated!
I'm still very much looking forward to this set, as I'm planning to use it on my S7 Elephant.
(Attachment Link)
S7 Elephanr is hell of a keyboard!
Post by: RETURNISO on Sun, 03 March 2019, 17:57:16
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 03 March 2019, 22:11:58
Anyone know how close "GAL" and "WCK" is from each other? @OP, do you have SA oblivion on hand? would love to see how that could match up? :)
"WCK" is much whiter. Sorry I don't have SA Oblivion on my hand now. Why did you ask this?
Post by: flying1911 on Sun, 03 March 2019, 23:04:52
Anyone know how close "GAL" and "WCK" is from each other? @OP, do you have SA oblivion on hand? would love to see how that could match up? :)
"WCK" is much whiter. Sorry I don't have SA Oblivion on my hand now. Why did you ask this?
My guess is he wants to use Symbiosis cadet alphas with Oblivion monochrome mods.
Anyway, jumped in on Kono and having had a look at the samples, September can't come soon enough!
Post by: buzzking00 on Wed, 06 March 2019, 19:30:43
Post by: hhkbp2 on Wed, 06 March 2019, 23:12:35
Any update on this GB? Is there an ETA for when we might receive the keyset?
We just had the update for color samples a few days ago in post above. The estimated shipping date is on GB/Pre-order webpage of vendors, which is September. And Kono has weekly update (https://kono.store/pages/weekly-update).
Post by: whalematrontron on Sun, 31 March 2019, 02:30:29
Any update on this GB? Is there an ETA for when we might receive the keyset?
We just had the update for color samples a few days ago in post above. The estimated shipping date is on GB/Pre-order webpage of vendors, which is September. And Kono has weekly update (https://kono.store/pages/weekly-update).
Any samples of the alphas with the sublegends?
Post by: Hotsauce on Sun, 31 March 2019, 02:32:47
Post by: wdouglass on Mon, 08 April 2019, 09:04:33
$120 seems like a lot for just modifiers...
Post by: hhkbp2 on Mon, 08 April 2019, 09:44:04
If i order the ergodox kit, does it come with alphas or just the modifiers (in the picture on KONO.com)?
$120 seems like a lot for just modifiers...
The Ergodox kit contains only modifiers. You need to order the Alphas kit as well to cover a full Ergodox layout.
Post by: AJM on Mon, 08 April 2019, 15:35:09
I ordered a few sets including the NorDeUK kit and just noticed the following mistake in the NorDeUK kit (as pictured on the Kono website) and wanted to ask, if someone here can tell me if this mistake will be corrected before the production begins:
The NorDeUK kit contains the Y and Z keycap with swapped profile, because on a German keyboard they are the other way round. The problem is that the Y and Z key of the NorDeUK kit keep the same secondary legends, which means they are swapped as well and then they don't correspond with the neighboring keys anymore.
Or to state it differently:
The German Y needs the secondary legend of the standard Z and
the German Z needs the secondary legend of the standard Y.
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
Post by: hhkbp2 on Mon, 08 April 2019, 19:47:28
Hi,
I ordered a few sets including the NorDeUK kit and just noticed the following mistake in the NorDeUK kit (as pictured on the Kono website) and wanted to ask, if someone here can tell me if this mistake will be corrected before the production begins:
The NorDeUK kit contains the Y and Z keycap with swapped profile, because on a German keyboard they are the other way round. The problem is that the Y and Z key of the NorDeUK kit keep the same secondary legends, which means they are swapped as well and then they don't correspond with the neighboring keys anymore.
Or to state it differently:
The German Y needs the secondary legend of the standard Z and
the German Z needs the secondary legend of the standard Y.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Hi, It's made in this way so that SP could using the same tooling for standard Y, Z in Alphas kit and German Y, Z in NordeUK kit. If we re-arrange the APL legends along the Alphas legends A-Z, it will cost a lot more on tooling of them and then the NordeUK, Colevrak kit is so expensive so that impossible to be made.
Post by: AJM on Tue, 09 April 2019, 03:01:13
I read sometimes, that people argue, that there are no more international kits available, because so few people buy them. Well, that may just be the reason: That they're not designed/made well.
(Another example, I'm a "victim" of, are the messed-up legends of the MT3 /dev/tty international kit.)
I just hope I can cancel the preorder ....
Post by: hhkbp2 on Tue, 09 April 2019, 04:25:16
Thanks for your reply.
I read sometimes, that people argue, that there are no more international kits available, because so few people buy them. Well, that may just be the reason: That they're not designed/made well.
(Another example, I'm a "victim" of, are the messed-up legends of the MT3 /dev/tty international kit.)
I just hope I can cancel the preorder ....
It's true that only a small portion of keycap GB buyers will buy the Norde/UK kits, sometimes it's hard to be made. In most SA keysets with standard alphas A-Z legends, the NordeUK kits have the same legends. There is no much design work to do for them.
You could cancel your order by contacting the vendor. Thank you for your support anyway.
Post by: bardomudo on Sun, 14 April 2019, 02:20:20
Best decision ever. Rarely have any issues with cap compatibility anymore.
Post by: vodan on Sun, 14 April 2019, 06:33:41
Thanks for your reply.
...that there are no more international kits available, because so few people buy them. Well, that may just be the reason: That they're not designed/made well.
I think the "not designed/made well" is more of an effect than a cause...
Making Norde/UK kits with the correct legend drives up the price like crazy -> no one buys -> therefore manufacturers will not do it
But then people complain the lack of Norde/UK kits -> manufacturers recycle base legends as compromise -> people complain about incorrect legends / refuse to buy -> low quantity observed in GB -> manufacturers don't want to do them anymore
I feel like no one wins here...
Post by: AJM on Sun, 14 April 2019, 07:40:49
After all, for silly things like "Novelties" there seems to be no limit in that regard.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 14 April 2019, 07:51:11
I think the "not designed/made well" is more of an effect than a cause...
Making Norde/UK kits with the correct legend drives up the price like crazy -> no one buys -> therefore manufacturers will not do it
But then people complain the lack of Norde/UK kits -> manufacturers recycle base legends as compromise -> people complain about incorrect legends / refuse to buy -> low quantity observed in GB -> manufacturers don't want to do them anymore
I feel like no one wins here...
I had messaged Kono about this and tried to figure out whether we could change to add these two new legends mentioned above for later production. Since the GB was close with fixed price(and order were taken), I have to pay the tooling cost. It's a niche kit, but I still hope you guys will be happy with it.
Post by: AaronR on Sun, 14 April 2019, 20:25:18
Post by: hhkbp2 on Mon, 15 April 2019, 02:13:18
Is there any estimate on the shipping time?
This September(you could see it on the pre-order page). And kono keeps updating on here: weekly update (https://kono.store/pages/weekly-update)
Post by: veleiro on Tue, 16 April 2019, 18:39:31
Post by: hhkbp2 on Wed, 17 April 2019, 01:41:34
Ahhh I just missed getting the alphas so i could complete my ergodox design with these =( It will probably still work well with the extra 1.5 CADRs hopefully
I don't understand what happened to you but beware of the CADR has uniform R3 profile while the other kits have sculpted profile.
Post by: veleiro on Wed, 17 April 2019, 08:26:32
Ahhh I just missed getting the alphas so i could complete my ergodox design with these =( It will probably still work well with the extra 1.5 CADRs hopefully
I don't understand what happened to you but beware of the CADR has uniform R3 profile while the other kits have sculpted profile.
It seems they're out of preorders of the alphas?
Yes, I am aware of the CADR's uniform. I will build a uniform with the few ergodox R3 keys and the CARD set, if that would work.
Post by: DukeEsquire on Wed, 17 April 2019, 16:03:35
Ahhh I just missed getting the alphas so i could complete my ergodox design with these =( It will probably still work well with the extra 1.5 CADRs hopefully
I don't understand what happened to you but beware of the CADR has uniform R3 profile while the other kits have sculpted profile.
It seems they're out of preorders of the alphas?
Yes, I am aware of the CADR's uniform. I will build a uniform with the few ergodox R3 keys and the CARD set, if that would work.
Zfrontier is still selling alphas.
https://en.zfrontier.com/collections/keysets/products/sa-symbiosis-2?variant=12547461382222
Post by: veleiro on Wed, 17 April 2019, 16:36:54
Ahhh I just missed getting the alphas so i could complete my ergodox design with these =( It will probably still work well with the extra 1.5 CADRs hopefully
I don't understand what happened to you but beware of the CADR has uniform R3 profile while the other kits have sculpted profile.
It seems they're out of preorders of the alphas?
Yes, I am aware of the CADR's uniform. I will build a uniform with the few ergodox R3 keys and the CARD set, if that would work.
Zfrontier is still selling alphas.
https://en.zfrontier.com/collections/keysets/products/sa-symbiosis-2?variant=12547461382222
Thanks! I wasn't aware of any other regions.
Post by: veleiro on Thu, 18 April 2019, 10:18:40
As a keycaps noob, can anyone explain to me what following sets are for? 40s (40% keyboards?), Ortho looks like another 40 as well?
I assume Colevrak is for both dvorak and colemak layouts?
As an emacsOS user and a student of hacking history, I'm really excited for this set!
Thanks!
Post by: menuhin on Thu, 18 April 2019, 11:17:30
kono got them back in stock too. I had to ask support to combine some orders ;D
As a keycaps noob, can anyone explain to me what following sets are for? 40s (40% keyboards?), Ortho looks like another 40 as well?
I assume Colevrak is for both dvorak and colemak layouts?
As an emacsOS user and a student of hacking history, I'm really excited for this set!
Thanks!
40% kit fulfills the need of boards like MiniVan, JD40, Daisy, and many other that requires > 1u key caps at multiple rows. Ortho kit is mostly for Planck but that can fit also Atreus, Preonic, and other Orthos which are mostly 1u keys based.
What is EmacsOS? Or do you mean Emacs? Or indeed some sort of OS booting up a computer that runs on Lisp and then Emacs?? If that is the later case, then it is some super exciting news for me. I have seen someone who built a kernel and a super simple barebone OS based on Lisp a year or two ago - not sure if it has become usable.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Thu, 18 April 2019, 11:26:49
kono got them back in stock too. I had to ask support to combine some orders ;D
As a keycaps noob, can anyone explain to me what following sets are for? 40s (40% keyboards?), Ortho looks like another 40 as well?
I assume Colevrak is for both dvorak and colemak layouts?
As an emacsOS user and a student of hacking history, I'm really excited for this set!
Thanks!
40s is for many 40 layouts like JD40, JD45, MiniVan, Golbat, Pearl, Vortex, Sebright, Minorca etc. While Ortho is for layouts with (mostly) 1u keys like Planck, Preonic, etc.
Colevrak is for both dvorak and colemak.
Post by: veleiro on Thu, 18 April 2019, 11:27:44
What is EmacsOS? Or do you mean Emacs? Or indeed some sort of OS booting up a computer that runs on Lisp and then Emacs?? If that is the later case, then it is some super exciting news for me. I have seen someone who built a kernel and a super simple barebone OS based on Lisp a year or two ago - not sure if it has become usable.I mean emacs. I always call it emacsOS publicly because of the joke "the only thing emacs lacks is a good editor" :))
Post by: Hotsauce on Fri, 19 April 2019, 11:28:14
Quote
For information about a new keyboard design to pair this keycap set - join the waitlist here - https://kono.store/products/input-club-symbolic-keyboard
(https://i.imgur.com/CNoWEku.png)
Post by: bcbishop on Fri, 19 April 2019, 11:52:06
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 19 April 2019, 14:33:15
Kono store updated with this yesterday. Not sure if this was previously posted.QuoteFor information about a new keyboard design to pair this keycap set - join the waitlist here - https://kono.store/products/input-club-symbolic-keyboardShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/CNoWEku.png)
Em, The legends are smaller than I expected. Will try to enlarge them later. Thanks for the post.
Add:
It's good to know the legend samples were out so soon. I double checked my artwork source file with these samples, and did a comparison:
(https://i.imgur.com/WrAT3TW.png)
These legends on latest samples are smaller. I need to talk to Kono and SP, to figure out what's wrong. I will make sure the production goes out well enough (to fulfill my expectation). Will keep updating. Thanks.
Post by: buzzking00 on Fri, 19 April 2019, 16:37:22
Post by: r4wromg on Fri, 19 April 2019, 21:25:35
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 19 April 2019, 22:33:25
Is GB and Pre-Order price different or same?
I didn't trace the change of price along GB/Pre-order, but the price of Pre-order should be slightly higher than GB.
Post by: bardomudo on Sat, 20 April 2019, 00:46:32
Was a little worried when I saw those samples, but glad to know that you'll be checking in with them. Hoping for some good news soon
Same here. The smaller legends are significant enough to get me a bit worried. Do hope this gets sorted out as I have joined the GB for different 8 kits.
Post by: dsaf on Sat, 20 April 2019, 15:51:01
Kono store updated with this yesterday. Not sure if this was previously posted.QuoteFor information about a new keyboard design to pair this keycap set - join the waitlist here - https://kono.store/products/input-club-symbolic-keyboardShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/CNoWEku.png)
Thumb-up looks different than finger-pointing-left. Larger and the line is thicker. Hopefully consistency will be ensured? Maybe that's just me though...
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sat, 20 April 2019, 21:48:23
Thumb-up looks different than finger-pointing-left. Larger and the line is thicker. Hopefully consistency will be ensured? Maybe that's just me though...
They are indeed different images. Thumb-up is the same width with Point-left, but taller in height. And the line weight is almost the same. Not mathematically the same because Thumb-up has more curves and the line weight of these curves vary a bit, for aesthetics.
Post by: crykn on Mon, 22 April 2019, 14:11:58
Kono store updated with this yesterday. Not sure if this was previously posted.QuoteFor information about a new keyboard design to pair this keycap set - join the waitlist here - https://kono.store/products/input-club-symbolic-keyboardShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/CNoWEku.png)
Em, The legends are smaller than I expected. Will try to enlarge them later. Thanks for the post.
Add:
It's good to know the legend samples were out so soon. I double checked my artwork source file with these samples, and did a comparison:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/WrAT3TW.png)
These legends on latest samples are smaller. I need to talk to Kono and SP, to figure out what's wrong. I will make sure the production goes out well enough (to fulfill my expectation). Will keep updating. Thanks.
Does the box around the artwork on the right correspond to the surface area of the keycap, or is it the max size of the legends, which would be slightly smaller than the surface area? Based on how the samples turned out, I would guess the latter.
Post by: Thereminz on Sat, 27 April 2019, 20:26:01
Kono store updated with this yesterday. Not sure if this was previously posted.QuoteFor information about a new keyboard design to pair this keycap set - join the waitlist here - https://kono.store/products/input-club-symbolic-keyboardShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/CNoWEku.png)
Em, The legends are smaller than I expected. Will try to enlarge them later. Thanks for the post.
Add:
It's good to know the legend samples were out so soon. I double checked my artwork source file with these samples, and did a comparison:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/WrAT3TW.png)
These legends on latest samples are smaller. I need to talk to Kono and SP, to figure out what's wrong. I will make sure the production goes out well enough (to fulfill my expectation). Will keep updating. Thanks.
yeah that was my first thought when i saw the samples, "wow it's too small" ...hope you can get it looking perfect :)
Post by: impaktor on Sun, 28 April 2019, 01:54:57
I'm currently building the keyboard case to hold these keycaps, and I'm wondering what the hue/color specification is for the gray keyes?
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 28 April 2019, 02:35:36
Hi!
I'm currently building the keyboard case to hold these keycaps, and I'm wondering what the hue/color specification is for the gray keyes?
It's the SP ABS color GD.
Post by: impaktor on Sun, 28 April 2019, 02:40:58
For reference to myself, or any other: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Signature_Plastics_ABS_colours
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 28 April 2019, 16:29:51
yeah that was my first thought when i saw the samples, "wow it's too small" ...hope you can get it looking perfect :)
I'm trying to communicate with Kono and SP to figure out what's wrong. I think that I, Kono and SP together could pull it off in the end. It's not rocket science. But (taking a big step back) if the legends don't look good (to me) after all the effort, for the record I would cancel the GB if I have to. (Some buyers and Kono, SP would hate this). And you should be able to get your money back then.
Post by: bcbishop on Sun, 28 April 2019, 17:09:30
But (taking a big step back) if the legends don't look good (to me) after all the effort, for the record I would cancel the GB if I have to. (Some buyers and Kono, SP would hate this). And you should be able to get your money back then.
Thank you for saying this, hhkbp2. Your ethical dedication to getting the set right, no matter what, is one of the reasons why I’m so happy to support you and this GB. Do it right, or don’t do it at all.
Post by: flying1911 on Tue, 30 April 2019, 12:56:47
yeah that was my first thought when i saw the samples, "wow it's too small" ...hope you can get it looking perfect :)
I'm trying to communicate with Kono and SP to figure out what's wrong. I think that I, Kono and SP together could pull it off in the end. It's not rocket science. But (taking a big step back) if the legends don't look good (to me) after all the effort, for the record I would cancel the GB if I have to. (Some buyers and Kono, SP would hate this). And you should be able to get your money back then.
Man I hope it'll never come to that. The set is one of my most favourite and I went in pretty deep with the pre-order :(
Post by: Ensaum on Thu, 02 May 2019, 16:16:27
yeah that was my first thought when i saw the samples, "wow it's too small" ...hope you can get it looking perfect :)
I'm trying to communicate with Kono and SP to figure out what's wrong. I think that I, Kono and SP together could pull it off in the end. It's not rocket science. But (taking a big step back) if the legends don't look good (to me) after all the effort, for the record I would cancel the GB if I have to. (Some buyers and Kono, SP would hate this). And you should be able to get your money back then.
Man I hope it'll never come to that. The set is one of my most favourite and I went in pretty deep with the pre-order :(
For real. I've already bought a board and I sold gmk space cadet for this.
Post by: fireworm on Thu, 02 May 2019, 16:20:21
yeah that was my first thought when i saw the samples, "wow it's too small" ...hope you can get it looking perfect :)
I'm trying to communicate with Kono and SP to figure out what's wrong. I think that I, Kono and SP together could pull it off in the end. It's not rocket science. But (taking a big step back) if the legends don't look good (to me) after all the effort, for the record I would cancel the GB if I have to. (Some buyers and Kono, SP would hate this). And you should be able to get your money back then.
Do they not have the original molds? I thought R2 meant everything would be squared away... (Or they have 7Bit's Space Cadet molds too?)
Post by: flying1911 on Thu, 02 May 2019, 20:31:07
From the look of things, it may be more complicated than that, although according to info from the IC thread, SP confirmed there should be no problems. It was also mentioned in the IC thread that 7Bit never replied to OP’s request for permission to use the Cadet mold.yeah that was my first thought when i saw the samples, "wow it's too small" ...hope you can get it looking perfect :)
I'm trying to communicate with Kono and SP to figure out what's wrong. I think that I, Kono and SP together could pull it off in the end. It's not rocket science. But (taking a big step back) if the legends don't look good (to me) after all the effort, for the record I would cancel the GB if I have to. (Some buyers and Kono, SP would hate this). And you should be able to get your money back then.
Do they not have the original molds? I thought R2 meant everything would be squared away... (Or they have 7Bit's Space Cadet molds too?)
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 03 May 2019, 06:57:18
Do they not have the original molds? I thought R2 meant everything would be squared away... (Or they have 7Bit's Space Cadet molds too?)
We have the right to use Symbiosis R1 tooling. But the R1 legends don't look good enough so we will make new ones. As for 7bit's mold, I had no luck to get his permission to use that so it's not possible.
Post by: EightDiagram on Fri, 03 May 2019, 07:22:19
Do they not have the original molds? I thought R2 meant everything would be squared away... (Or they have 7Bit's Space Cadet molds too?)
We have the right to use Symbiosis R1 tooling. But the R1 legends don't look good enough so we will make new ones. As for 7bit's mold, I had no luck to get his permission to use that so it's not possible.
Any word on if they can improve the new legends to the correct size?
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 03 May 2019, 07:25:41
Any word on if they can improve the new legends to the correct size?
Still working on it. I will post if there is any update. ;)
Post by: EightDiagram on Fri, 03 May 2019, 07:33:24
Still working on it. I will post if there is any update. ;)
Ty sir! :thumb:
Post by: Nigolski on Fri, 03 May 2019, 09:05:14
Any word on if they can improve the new legends to the correct size?
Still working on it. I will post if there is any update. ;)
hope everything works out ok :-X
Post by: bardomudo on Sat, 04 May 2019, 00:31:09
Either way, I'm building a whole very expensive build around this GB, so please for the love of god don't cancel it. I don't mind waiting longer if necessary for the legends to be right, but please don't cancel :(
Post by: EightDiagram on Sat, 04 May 2019, 11:58:33
Quote
But (taking a big step back) if the legends don't look good (to me) after all the effort, for the record I would cancel the GB if I have to. (Some buyers and Kono, SP would hate this). And you should be able to get your money back then.
Appreciate the candidness of this statement and its motivation, but damn if it didn't shake me. Using 7bit's set as a reference (considering legend size only), it seems reasonable to assume that SP is capable of delivering.
Post by: codywanks on Sat, 04 May 2019, 18:41:07
Apologies for the ignorant question, I haven't really been keeping up with the hobby
Post by: enrique.aliaga on Sat, 04 May 2019, 19:57:22
Does SA Symbiosis R1 exist? If so, are its legends correct?
Apologies for the ignorant question, I haven't really been keeping up with the hobby
Of course it exists. SA Symbiosis R1 was all Row 3, though.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: codywanks on Mon, 06 May 2019, 22:39:23
Does SA Symbiosis R1 exist? If so, are its legends correct?
Of course it exists. SA Symbiosis R1 was all Row 3, though.
You didn't answer the second part of my question
Post by: Hotsauce on Mon, 06 May 2019, 23:21:03
(https://i.imgur.com/bt01UxR.jpg)
Post by: long_qt_pie on Tue, 07 May 2019, 11:15:21
Post by: Hotsauce on Tue, 07 May 2019, 13:13:00
Is that from SP? I know it’s not R5/6 but the legends look like Maxkey almost
It's not a sculpted set, it's all R3.
Post by: Nigolski on Tue, 07 May 2019, 13:30:35
Is that from SP? I know it’s not R5/6 but the legends look like Maxkey almost
It's not a sculpted set, it's all R3.
kek
Post by: Hotsauce on Tue, 07 May 2019, 16:40:51
Post by: mrfe333 on Wed, 08 May 2019, 11:29:14
Post by: menuhin on Wed, 08 May 2019, 13:14:41
Any update on what keys we need to get for the hypothetical Input Club Symbolics keyboard? seems like getting a layout similar to the original symbolics keyboard would require a combination of the different modifier sets currently available
Why you want an "update" from OP for a product unrelated to this run?
You can see from the photos of Kono Store that the original Symbolics Keyboards have a 9u space bar and many 2u keycaps on various rows - which are all lacking in this run.
My suggestion is to pray that their project at preliminary stage will succeed eventually and also will come with their own keycaps.
Otherwise, your best bet is to get some of the leftover of Round4/5/6 by 7Bit over at DT, or join his future Rounds, i.e. Round 7 b and later. Where he may make these "Hyper7 kits".
Post by: mrfe333 on Wed, 08 May 2019, 17:33:54
Why you want an "update" from OP for a product unrelated to this run?
It is not unrelated at all (not to IC at least). Just look at the page for this GB:
https://kono.store/products/sa-symbiosis-keycaps
One of the first things that you read is:
"To follow along with a keyboard re-creation process paired with this project - check out the Input Club Symbolic Keyboard Waitlist."
So from this they are literally saying that the keyboard is paired with the Symbiosis R2 project. So, at least to IC, they're very related. Unless there is a lack of communication and hhkbp2 was not notified about this (which I doubt), then it is totally valid and on-topic to ask about the Input Club Symbolic Keyboard here.
Post by: Locnguyen1507 on Thu, 09 May 2019, 11:55:36
Post by: hhkbp2 on Thu, 09 May 2019, 14:39:43
Could anyone let me know why the CADR All Uniform R3 has been removed again :( Im intend to get this kit...
I'm not sure whether it's sold out. You could contact Kono support and ask for that.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Thu, 09 May 2019, 14:52:23
Any update on what keys we need to get for the hypothetical Input Club Symbolics keyboard? seems like getting a layout similar to the original symbolics keyboard would require a combination of the different modifier sets currently available
It's in early phase for the symbolics keyboard project. It's still uncertain about its feasibility and more details like color theme, shape/layout, etc. It will provide options for suitable keycaps as well if the project comes true later. You don't need to plan it ahead, worrying about the keycap sets combination. ;)
Post by: qq on Fri, 10 May 2019, 03:54:06
I’ve ordered 7 kits (gb +preorder) in total and this is by far the most I have spent on keycaps.
I really hope the GB will not be canceled and at the end of the day, everyone will receive what they have been waiting for.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: impaktor on Fri, 10 May 2019, 04:07:05
Post by: qq on Fri, 10 May 2019, 04:15:21
7 sets? I believe that warrants you a medal!They’re 7 different kits, not sets, so I can have two boards with them being on. Also, to SP SA lately, it’s unlikely one can order 1 or 2 kits for a full board.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 10 May 2019, 06:35:35
Hi hhkbp2, thank you for following up the samples. I really appreciate your attitude when the samples don’t go well.
I’ve ordered 7 kits (gb +preorder) in total and this is by far the most I have spent on keycaps.
I really hope the GB will not be canceled and at the end of the day, everyone will receive what they have been waiting for.
Hi, Thanks for your support! We're trying to schedule a new run of samples. It's not rocket science and I think SP is able to deliver in the end. I hear your guys and it's fair enough for the discussion about cancelation for now.
Post by: ctrlshiftba on Fri, 10 May 2019, 08:36:12
Post by: hhkbp2 on Tue, 14 May 2019, 05:04:00
About the previous samples with small legends, I and Kono checked with SP that it's misunderstanding/mistake and they didn't used the artworks in the size as specified and expected. SP will make a new run of samples to have bigger legends. They didn't have estimated date for this new run now but I guess it will not be long since there only a few keys for the samples. I will let you guys know if there is any further progress.
PS:
It's no strongly related to this GB. But I don't know any better place to shout out for help.
I'm working on some project that's inspired by the Symbolics PN 364000 keyboard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolics#/media/File:Symbolics-keyboard.jpg). And I need some help. If you do have the keyboard and would like to give some help, or you know any of your friend do, please message me in private. Thanks!
Post by: mimalik on Tue, 14 May 2019, 06:35:03
Post by: Starius on Tue, 14 May 2019, 08:29:24
PS:
It's no strongly related to this GB. But I don't know any better place to shout out for help.
I'm working on some project that's inspired by the Symbolics PN 364000 keyboard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolics#/media/File:Symbolics-keyboard.jpg). And I need some help. If you do have the keyboard and would like to give some help, or you know any of your friend do, please message me in private. Thanks!
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HappyFrankBlackfish-size_restricted.gif)
I can’t offer you help, but I can offer you heartfelt encouragement!
Post by: gbchk on Tue, 14 May 2019, 10:50:49
Post by: mircodezorzi on Thu, 16 May 2019, 11:07:19
Post by: bsvercl on Sun, 19 May 2019, 00:38:26
apparently the ergodox and colevark kits sold out in on kono, is there any way to still buy them? this is probably one of my favorite sets but I might have waited too much to buy it...
Same here! I am in love with this set!
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 19 May 2019, 03:40:30
apparently the ergodox and colevark kits sold out in on kono, is there any way to still buy them? this is probably one of my favorite sets but I might have waited too much to buy it...
Same here! I am in love with this set!
These kits seem to be sold out too in other vendors' websites. I guess you could keep an eye on kono to check whether there is any more available after production/delivery, or check the mech market.
Post by: Hotsauce on Tue, 21 May 2019, 22:25:24
Hi all. As a blanket response, yes this is still a thing, but the latest is SP has come up against some molding issues:QuoteWe have run into a molding issue with the tooling and at this time our lead time on completion for SA-P is uncertain.
We are again at the mercy of the Plastic Gods. I'd like to get a lead time fixed so this doesn't become another keyboard blackhole of uncertainty so no GB until we have a firm target. My black little hart wouldn't be able to take supply issues further down the line, and I'm sure none of you want any GB drams either.
Perhaps a little game of I Spy? Alternatively maybe now is the time to get done that thing you've been putting off doing? I'm off to find my passport which my past self put in a safe place that in theory my future self would either know or be able to deduce so v :)) v
I saw this posted in the Glow IC thread. Will this affect the buy?
Post by: fireworm on Tue, 21 May 2019, 23:22:52
Not OP, but unlikely. SA Glow is PBT, this is ABS. They use different tooling entirely, IIRC.Hi all. As a blanket response, yes this is still a thing, but the latest is SP has come up against some molding issues:QuoteWe have run into a molding issue with the tooling and at this time our lead time on completion for SA-P is uncertain.
We are again at the mercy of the Plastic Gods. I'd like to get a lead time fixed so this doesn't become another keyboard blackhole of uncertainty so no GB until we have a firm target. My black little hart wouldn't be able to take supply issues further down the line, and I'm sure none of you want any GB drams either.
Perhaps a little game of I Spy? Alternatively maybe now is the time to get done that thing you've been putting off doing? I'm off to find my passport which my past self put in a safe place that in theory my future self would either know or be able to deduce so v :)) v
I saw this posted in the Glow IC thread. Will this affect the buy?
Post by: hhkbp2 on Wed, 22 May 2019, 04:34:07
I saw this posted in the Glow IC thread. Will this affect the buy?Not OP, but unlikely. SA Glow is PBT, this is ABS. They use different tooling entirely, IIRC.
It's not likely for SA because the production line for SA has run so many years. I don't think there is any molding issue unless SP tells me that directly for this GB.
Post by: kmicu on Fri, 24 May 2019, 15:27:43
apparently the ergodox and colevark kits sold out in on kono, is there any way to still buy them? this is probably one of my favorite sets but I might have waited too much to buy it...
Same here! I am in love with this set!
Same here. So when the next group buy? 😺
BTW. Are we doomed to always use USA based Signature Plastics and wait another years for availability of this wonderful set?
Could we get a worse quality set from a Shenzhen shop in the meantime?
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 24 May 2019, 15:41:34
Same here. So when the next group buy?
BTW. Are we doomed to always use USA based Signature Plastics and wait another years for availability of this wonderful set?
Could we get a worse quality set from a Shenzhen shop in the meantime?
There is no plan for the next. You know, the last is not delivered yet.
There exists Maxkey set of this blue/grey/cream theme. It's not related to this GB, but you could buy that if you want. Because nowadays only SP is able to make it in high quality with proper cost for so many customized legends. We have to stick to SP even though it has a long waiting queue and charges high prices. The same thing holds for GMK.
Post by: AaronR on Fri, 31 May 2019, 04:46:03
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 31 May 2019, 21:17:07
is there any eta on new legend samples?
SP said samples were ready. Not sure whether they sent it out yet. Please wait for update.
Post by: kmicu on Mon, 03 June 2019, 17:20:03
There is no plan for the next.Thank you so much for the answer. I’m new to this and wanted to finally buy key caps for my birthday in September
(I keep repeating to myself that once in my lifetime I could justify spending ~200 Euro for handful of plastic blocks 😹).
As a daily lisper (and Colemak(Mod DH) user) I was extremely happy to find your beautiful Space-Cadet-like set with Colevrak option.
But hey, everything, everywhere is sold out; tough love.
I’ll try to find something else with a shipping date near September.
Once more, thank you for blessing us with a such beautiful set. Amazing work. 🙇
Post by: WeathermanKarlos on Tue, 04 June 2019, 20:45:49
Post by: hhkbp2 on Tue, 04 June 2019, 21:07:28
Probably a little late for this, but I just noticed that the Extension kit has row 2 Page Up and row 3 Page Down, but no row 4 End for 65 percent boards. Seems a little strange, is that intentional?
To match many layouts, there should be pairs with row 3 HOME and row 4 END, row 3 INS and row 4 DEL. So that along with mod kit you got the Nav keys flowing down r1/r2/r3/r4, but these are so many keys. During the IC phase, I tried to reduce the price and removed some of them. No complain or resistance, so that it's what it's now.
Post by: atxk on Wed, 05 June 2019, 13:33:18
Post by: hhkbp2 on Wed, 05 June 2019, 13:43:03
New to buying keycaps, but how do pre-orders work regarding this set? Most of the kits still seems available on zFrontier, so I just want to check if I can still grab this set for my new build :p
Pre-order means the vendors ordered a few extra after the GB closed, and you could buy as long as they're not sold out. Your order will be shipped after vendors receive productions from SP, just like what will happen for the buyers who joined the GB.
Post by: atxk on Thu, 06 June 2019, 00:59:26
New to buying keycaps, but how do pre-orders work regarding this set? Most of the kits still seems available on zFrontier, so I just want to check if I can still grab this set for my new build :p
Pre-order means the vendors ordered a few extra after the GB closed, and you could buy as long as they're not sold out. Your order will be shipped after vendors receive productions from SP, just like what will happen for the buyers who joined the GB.
oh damn thanks for the quick reply! I'll hop on the symbiosis train then :>
Post by: Hotsauce on Fri, 07 June 2019, 00:02:51
Any pictures?
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 07 June 2019, 01:49:25
"We have order acknowledgement from Signature Plastics. We received our second set of production samples and are reviewing them with the designer. Production slot is still locked in."
Any pictures?
I have not seen any picture yet. Will let you know if there is any update or picture. :)
Post by: bardomudo on Wed, 12 June 2019, 21:28:20
"We have order acknowledgement from Signature Plastics. We received our second set of production samples and are reviewing them with the designer. Production slot is still locked in."
Any pictures?
I have not seen any picture yet. Will let you know if there is any update or picture. :)
Any updates? Has Kono reached out to you yet? It's been a week since they said they received the new samples.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Wed, 12 June 2019, 21:38:59
Any updates? Has Kono reached out to you yet? It's been a week since they said they received the new samples.
Nope. Kono said they would look after it about one week ago. I would like to sit tight rather than to keep pushing them once each week. Please wait with patience. I will let you know if there is any update.
Post by: nappis on Thu, 13 June 2019, 01:38:27
Post by: hhkbp2 on Thu, 13 June 2019, 01:49:09
Last time Kono received samples they added pictures on their web site. Now they are not updating the site and they are keeping designer in the dark. I hope the lack of update does not mean that the new samples are ****e.
I guess probably they are just busy with something else. :))
Post by: mimalik on Fri, 14 June 2019, 10:29:54
Post by: bardomudo on Tue, 18 June 2019, 18:16:26
I resized and put them side-by-side with the old/first samples so we can better see the changes in proportion. At least to me, they look great now.
(https://i.imgur.com/WinUccI.png)
Post by: gbchk on Tue, 18 June 2019, 18:18:09
Post by: bardomudo on Tue, 18 June 2019, 18:24:24
Looks way better. Did they change the color as well? The old image looks like the standard R5/R6 grey color, while the new looks like the Cadet grey.
They could have changed the color, but as a former professional photographer with 10 years of experience, I can assure you the difference in color we see could also have been easily caused by difference in white balance and lighting.
The first/old image looks warmer to me, with a bit of red in there, while the second looks cooler. That's often how grey reacts with small changes in white balance. Judging by the white, the second/newer image looks more accurate to my eyes and my calibrated monitor.
Post by: DukeEsquire on Tue, 18 June 2019, 19:20:26
Post by: buzzking00 on Tue, 18 June 2019, 21:01:59
I contacted Kono and politely asked about the new samples image. They said they sent it to hhkbp2 and would update the site soon with it, but in case people here want to check it out earlier, they sent it to me as well and I'm posting them.
I resized and put them side-by-side with the old/first samples so we can better see the changes in proportion. At least to me, they look great now.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/WinUccI.png)
Thanks for the picture :)
Can't wait to get my set!
Post by: hottrout on Thu, 20 June 2019, 06:17:56
Post by: Hotsauce on Thu, 20 June 2019, 17:51:00
Post by: qq on Thu, 20 June 2019, 18:00:11
Would anyone here be prepared to sell me their UK RETURN key and if possible an ESC key in the yellow?
In the worst case, kits that have them are still available on the Kono site.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 21 June 2019, 09:47:21
I contacted Kono and politely asked about the new samples image. They said they sent it to hhkbp2 and would update the site soon with it, but in case people here want to check it out earlier, they sent it to me as well and I'm posting them.
I resized and put them side-by-side with the old/first samples so we can better see the changes in proportion. At least to me, they look great now.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/WinUccI.png)
Thanks. I'm reviewing these samples with Kono these two days. Some other photos were taken:
(https://imgur.com/jDtE3kO.jpg)
(https://imgur.com/ThlZcTC.jpg)
These legends on latest samples were improved. The sizes of symbols were enlarged, compared to previous run of samples. They are slightly larger than symbols of number row, but not too large to be uncoordinated, which is true to the artworks. Line weights are big enough and positions are consistent. These samples look nice.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 21 June 2019, 09:57:21
Looks way better. Did they change the color as well? The old image looks like the standard R5/R6 grey color, while the new looks like the Cadet grey.
They could have changed the color, but as a former professional photographer with 10 years of experience, I can assure you the difference in color we see could also have been easily caused by difference in white balance and lighting.
The first/old image looks warmer to me, with a bit of red in there, while the second looks cooler. That's often how grey reacts with small changes in white balance. Judging by the white, the second/newer image looks more accurate to my eyes and my calibrated monitor.
You're right. Usually it's not easy to present colors precisely via pictures. The colors of both runs of samples were the same.
Post by: Taques on Fri, 21 June 2019, 23:56:48
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 28 June 2019, 14:49:05
(https://i.imgur.com/bUcJdXD.jpg)
SP is cutting the legends for the production. They don't have the specific date to start the production yet but it's coming closer. It's a long time for this run but the finishing line is in sight. Cheers!
Post by: bardomudo on Sat, 29 June 2019, 01:55:13
SP told me that the artwork of novelties "symbiosis" that I gave them before was too big to fit a 2.25u legendable area. I would make it smaller to fit and change the legend to "symbolics" so that it looks better even when becoming smaller. It's a minor change but I would like to let you guys know.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/bUcJdXD.jpg)
SP is cutting the legends for the production. They don't have the specific date to start the production yet but it's coming closer. It's a long time for this run but the finishing line is in sight. Cheers!
I'd take the Symbolics over the Symbiosis legend any day. Just my 2c.
Post by: mimalik on Tue, 02 July 2019, 09:01:34
Post by: hhkbp2 on Tue, 02 July 2019, 09:11:06
kono's portal is giving out 502 error, do they not exist anymore? Sincerely hope that its a technical error. too invested in this set.
I guess so. You know, it's too silly for Kono to vanish now before SP starts production and delivers after paying the money for the order and doing all these sample runs. :))
Post by: cijanzen on Tue, 02 July 2019, 09:45:05
kono's portal is giving out 502 error, do they not exist anymore? Sincerely hope that its a technical error. too invested in this set.
Shopify sites are down right now
Post by: phinix on Wed, 17 July 2019, 04:08:15
Post by: hottrout on Wed, 17 July 2019, 07:20:14
Is that SA Hacker something you gonna run soon?
I also am watching that very closely. Looks great I think.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sat, 20 July 2019, 11:32:43
Is that SA Hacker something you gonna run soon?
I also am watching that very closely. Looks great I think.
Thanks. I did many things for it but I'm still hesitant about whether/when/how to run it. No specific schedule yet.
Post by: bardomudo on Thu, 25 July 2019, 17:40:26
Post by: jimboytacos on Fri, 26 July 2019, 00:27:10
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 26 July 2019, 05:10:52
Do you think the September timeline Kono still lists as locked in will be indeed come to fruition?
I'd like to know this as well. KONO's updates states that this set will be shipping in September. That means this set must be in production or nearing production soon I'm order to hit they deadline?
I still need some time to tune the alphas legends. The last cut of alphas legends looked probably too big when paired with the whole number row together, and I would like to give another try on using the standard sizes for these legends. This was not going on very well. It needs communication and cooperation between me, Kono and SP, like it used to. But I have not heard from Kono for a while. Have no idea what kept they so busy that they did not even have the time to take a look at the emails and reply.
But in the other hand, SP told me that some other kits had been in production. They were quite rushed to do the production run while I was still verifying and tuning the legends.
I got no much info about the whole plan of SP production dates and Kono delivery dates, etc. Kono should be in charge of all these and do the coordination but Kono was absent these days. It's hard for me to estimate the actual shipping date under current situation. I suspect there will be delay but I don't have a clear idea of that. Sorry I don't have the answers of your questions for now.
Post by: yap68 on Fri, 26 July 2019, 05:34:46
Will Kono become another zFrontier?
Post by: cijanzen on Fri, 26 July 2019, 07:28:58
Do you think the September timeline Kono still lists as locked in will be indeed come to fruition?I'd like to know this as well. KONO's updates states that this set will be shipping in September. That means this set must be in production or nearing production soon I'm order to hit they deadline?
I still need some time to tune the alphas legends. The last cut of alphas legends looked probably too big when paired with the whole number row together, and I would like to give another try on using the standard sizes for these legends. This was not going on very well. It needs communication and cooperation between me, Kono and SP, like it used to. But I have not heard from Kono for a while. Have no idea what kept they so busy that they did not even have the time to take a look at the emails and reply.
But in the other hand, SP told me that some other kits had been in production. They were quite rushed to do the production run while I was still verifying and tuning the legends.
I got no much info about the whole plan of SP production dates and Kono delivery dates, etc. Kono should be in charge of all these and do the coordination but Kono was absent these days. It's hard for me to estimate the actual shipping date under current situation. I suspect there will be delay but I don't have a clear idea of that. Sorry I don't have the answers of your questions for now.
Thanks for the clarity and honesty, that goes a long ways, and at least you’re communicating even if Kono is not!
Post by: nappis on Fri, 26 July 2019, 12:09:39
I still need some time to tune the alphas legends. The last cut of alphas legends looked probably too big when paired with the whole number row together, and I would like to give another try on using the standard sizes for these legends.Standard SP SA R1 number row legends were too small next to Symbiosis 2.0 second iteration R2 alphas? V2 alphas looked good to me. How can you have too big legends on SA caps...? :))
7bit legends are really pushing the cap boundaries and they look great!
Post by: Hotsauce on Fri, 26 July 2019, 13:05:07
Post by: OnceS on Sat, 27 July 2019, 01:39:34
Post by: fireworm on Sat, 27 July 2019, 12:46:13
Is this SA Space Cadet with a new name or have I mistaken?If you are talking about GMK Space Cadet, but in SA profile, no. That is Oblotzky's creation. He has minimal, or no ties with this keyset.
This is Symbiosis R2, a play on "Symbolics", the manufacturer name of that Space Cadet keyboard.
Post by: romevi on Sat, 27 July 2019, 13:09:10
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard?wprov=sfla1
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 28 July 2019, 20:20:44
Standard SP SA R1 number row legends were too small next to Symbiosis 2.0 second iteration R2 alphas? V2 alphas looked good to me. How can you have too big legends on SA caps...? :))
7bit legends are really pushing the cap boundaries and they look great!
From what I understand 7bit used his own, or another font for certain legends?
I had the same thought when making the A-Z alphas legends big. But the compatibility looks not perfect when putting all number row legends with standard sizes and alphas legends with obviously bigger sizes together. So that I would like to try the standard size alphas legends. It's another story of 7bit legends. During previous rounds, He made different versions of legends with different sizes, using his customized legends for number row, alphas, mod etc. all keys. While we just customized the alphas legends here.
Is this SA Space Cadet with a new name or have I mistaken?If you are talking about GMK Space Cadet, but in SA profile, no. That is Oblotzky's creation. He has minimal, or no ties with this keyset.
This is Symbiosis R2, a play on "Symbolics", the manufacturer name of that Space Cadet keyboard.
From the historical point of view, Space-Cadet was name of a few versions of keyboards made by LMI and Symbolics. The most popular version in white case was manufactured by Symbolics, and "Symbolics" was also branded in top case this version. People called this keyboard Symbolics keyboard too.
xblackdog was inspired by the keyset of this keyboard to create the SA Symbiosis keyset. Similarly 7bit made SPH/Cadet kits in his rounds.
Oblotzky ported the keyset theme to GMK after he received the SA keyset from 7bit, so that came the GMK Space Cadet.
I inherited the name SA Symbiosis for this R2 run. And Kono was working to re-create the Space-Cadet keyboard. No new name was specified for this re-creation yet as I knew.
There were other keysets made in similar blue/gray/cream(white) color theme by SP/Maxkey without the APL legends. They usually had the name blue-gray, gray-blue or something like that.
In summary, Space-Cadet keyboard and Symbolics keyboard are usually nearly the same things. But when people say Space-Cadet keyset or Symbolics keyset, what they mean could be very different. It'd be clearer to call it in specified name.
Post by: Resident on Tue, 30 July 2019, 20:03:45
Thanks for taking up the task of making this keyset happen, and working through the communication issues behind the scenes! I joined for a big pile of kits as soon as group buy went live, and I'm super excited for it.
I registered first to say thanks, but also to register my interest in having the alphas remain large. The alpha legends are the star of the show, in my opinion. I'd most rather see numeric row legends enlarged to match the large alpha legends. Barring that, I'd rather see large alpha legends with standard numeric legends, even if it means they're not perfect and slightly mismatched. Just my two cents.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Tue, 30 July 2019, 20:57:29
Hi hhkbp2,
Thanks for taking up the task of making this keyset happen, and working through the communication issues behind the scenes! I joined for a big pile of kits as soon as group buy went live, and I'm super excited for it.
I registered first to say thanks, but also to register my interest in having the alphas remain large. The alpha legends are the star of the show, in my opinion. I'd most rather see numeric row legends enlarged to match the large alpha legends. Barring that, I'd rather see large alpha legends with standard numeric legends, even if it means they're not perfect and slightly mismatched. Just my two cents.
Thanks for your support! I agree that the alphas legends are important to this design. That's why I'm quite cautious (and maybe picky) on these legends.
I'm afraid the first option you mentioned is not possible for now because the order was placed to SP to use the standard number row legends. Between the options of "bigger size alphas + standard size number row" and "standard size alphas + number row", it's a trade off to make the choice: localized optimization for bigger alphas legends, or better compatibility for all legends. The difference between bigger size and standard size is about 10~12%. Still noticeable but the difference is not that big, not as big as the biggest 7bit creation(even bigger than the latest samples picture we have on this thread) vs Symbiosis R1 legends. Previously 7bit made a version of alphas on the standard sizes and it looks good, although he customized the number row legends as well to make them have wider shapes. That's why I would like to give another try before approving the alphas' production.
On this issue, we're stuck for a few weeks. I should already have real key samples of both sizes to show you guys for a better description, if things go well. But, well, currently I have to wait for the vendor's appearance and then work with all parties to continue this project.
Post by: jimboytacos on Wed, 31 July 2019, 01:28:36
Hi hhkbp2,
Thanks for taking up the task of making this keyset happen, and working through the communication issues behind the scenes! I joined for a big pile of kits as soon as group buy went live, and I'm super excited for it.
I registered first to say thanks, but also to register my interest in having the alphas remain large. The alpha legends are the star of the show, in my opinion. I'd most rather see numeric row legends enlarged to match the large alpha legends. Barring that, I'd rather see large alpha legends with standard numeric legends, even if it means they're not perfect and slightly mismatched. Just my two cents.
Thanks for your support! I agree that the alphas legends are important to this design. That's why I'm quite cautious (and maybe picky) on these legends.
I'm afraid the first option you mentioned is not possible for now because the order was placed to SP to use the standard number row legends. Between the options of "bigger size alphas + standard size number row" and "standard size alphas + number row", it's a trade off to make the choice: localized optimization for bigger alphas legends, or better compatibility for all legends. The difference between bigger size and standard size is about 10~12%. Still noticeable but the difference is not that big, not as big as the biggest 7bit creation(even bigger than the latest samples picture we have on this thread) vs Symbiosis R1 legends. Previously 7bit made a version of alphas on the standard sizes and it looks good, although he customized the number row legends as well to make them have wider shapes. That's why I would like to give another try before approving the alphas' production.
On this issue, we're stuck for a few weeks. I should already have real key samples of both sizes to show you guys for a better description, if things go well. But, well, currently I have to wait for the vendor's appearance and then work with all parties to continue this project.
Kono says this GB is starting shipping in September is this still true? when do you think any major update will take place?
Post by: hhkbp2 on Wed, 31 July 2019, 23:28:56
Kono says this GB is starting shipping in September is this still true? when do you think any major update will take place?
Similar questions were asked before. Refer to #343 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97492.msg2790836#msg2790836)
Post by: bardomudo on Thu, 01 August 2019, 17:12:11
Let's all try to be understanding and accept that delays and communication issues happen, but ultimately what will make this set come to production and fruition successfully is us keeping our cool and patience, no need to constantly ask or pressure anyone about it.
Kono will work the details for the final design with hhkbp2 and it will go into production soon after.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Thu, 01 August 2019, 20:59:46
I got in touch and exchanged a few emails with Kono regarding this set. I won't get in details because we don't need to worry or stir up any drama, but the gist of it is that the September timeline will not be honored due to multiple delays, including having to remake and correct the legends and the fact that they're a really small team (3 people only) who got a lot on their plate, so communication can be slow at times.
Let's all try to be understanding and accept that delays and communication issues happen, but ultimately what will make this set come to production and fruition successfully is us keeping our cool and patience, no need to constantly ask or pressure anyone about it.
Kono will work the details for the final design with hhkbp2 and it will go into production soon after.
Thanks!
Post by: nappis on Tue, 06 August 2019, 00:34:02
Purple caps seem to have standard SP legends. You don't think the Symbiosis alpha legends don't look good next to purple cap legends sizewise?Show Image(https://imgur.com/ThlZcTC.jpg)
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 09 August 2019, 08:34:32
Purple caps seem to have standard SP legends. You don't think the Symbiosis alpha legends don't look good next to purple cap legends sizewise?
Yeah, like I said I think there might be something could be done for improvement.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 09 August 2019, 10:51:34
(https://i.imgur.com/hNDNf8T.jpg)
Don't mind the colors of these sample keys, they will be in the Symbiosis color theme in real production.
The new sample legends were tuned a bit smaller. They're in the so-called standard sizes as we discussed before and they match the standard number row legends better in term of compatibility. I think we should use this latest version for the production.
So the legends issue settled. I will work with SP for the rest and let them start production for this part then.
Thanks for your support and patience. Will keep updating if there is news.
Post by: h9n9n3 on Sat, 10 August 2019, 09:06:37
For the alphas legends, I received picture of the new samples from SP as the middle row of the following:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/hNDNf8T.jpg)
Don't mind the colors of these sample keys, they will be in the Symbiosis color theme in real production.
The new sample legends were tuned a bit smaller. They're in the so-called standard sizes as we discussed before and they match the standard number row legends better in term of compatibility. I think we should use this latest version for the production.
So the legends issue settled. I will work with SP for the rest and let them start production for this part then.
Thanks for your support and patience. Will keep updating if there is news.
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Worth waiting! Looks great to me ! Better than the bigger alphas
Post by: cijanzen on Sat, 10 August 2019, 09:35:43
For the alphas legends, I received picture of the new samples from SP as the middle row of the following:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/hNDNf8T.jpg)
Don't mind the colors of these sample keys, they will be in the Symbiosis color theme in real production.
The new sample legends were tuned a bit smaller. They're in the so-called standard sizes as we discussed before and they match the standard number row legends better in term of compatibility. I think we should use this latest version for the production.
So the legends issue settled. I will work with SP for the rest and let them start production for this part then.
Thanks for your support and patience. Will keep updating if there is news.
And I thought I was happy with the previous alphas but these new ones look really fantastic. Good on you for being persistent and making sure the final outcome is what you wanted to achieve!
Post by: fn on Sun, 11 August 2019, 12:33:43
For the alphas legends, I received picture of the new samples from SP as the middle row of the following:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/hNDNf8T.jpg)
Don't mind the colors of these sample keys, they will be in the Symbiosis color theme in real production.
The new sample legends were tuned a bit smaller. They're in the so-called standard sizes as we discussed before and they match the standard number row legends better in term of compatibility. I think we should use this latest version for the production.
So the legends issue settled. I will work with SP for the rest and let them start production for this part then.
Thanks for your support and patience. Will keep updating if there is news.
The new samples look great! Thanks for being persistent, they definitely match the number row better
Post by: horchata771 on Wed, 14 August 2019, 19:52:49
Post by: kmicu on Thu, 15 August 2019, 06:53:55
Can't wait for this set. Been reloading the Kono and Zfrontier pages like a madperson for the last few months. […]Isn’t this GB already over?
Post by: FearsomeCubedWarrior on Thu, 15 August 2019, 17:51:32
Post by: horchata771 on Thu, 15 August 2019, 18:43:49
True, but from time to time there are extras available. I've been able to find a nearly full set by just checking the Kono and Zfrontier everyday.Can't wait for this set. Been reloading the Kono and Zfrontier pages like a madperson for the last few months. […]Isn’t this GB already over?
Post by: phinix on Sat, 31 August 2019, 16:29:15
Post by: FearsomeCubedWarrior on Sun, 01 September 2019, 00:22:07
Post by: pentathlos on Fri, 06 September 2019, 03:53:10
Is there any chance volume might be increased for the Choices? Or has anyone on this thread pre-ordered but since lost interest? I would be delighted to be able to get my hands on a Choices set.
Post by: eas on Thu, 12 September 2019, 15:25:35
Is there any chance volume might be increased for the Choices? Or has anyone on this thread pre-ordered but since lost interest? I would be delighted to be able to get my hands on a Choices set.
You'll likely find on MechMarket after this ships
Post by: Saga on Thu, 12 September 2019, 19:31:33
Post by: phinix on Fri, 13 September 2019, 02:49:40
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 13 September 2019, 09:58:59
(https://i.imgur.com/ro63HGe.jpg)
Look good. It's the final version and should be the same as what you will get after the production and delivery.
The production is still running. SP didn't give me the date when it will be done so I don't know what's the delay for delivery. Sorry! Please wait with patience. I will keep updating on news.
Post by: cijanzen on Fri, 13 September 2019, 10:00:17
About the Alphas legends, I got a picture of real keycaps from SP:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/ro63HGe.jpg)
Look good. It's the final version and should be the same as what you will get after the production and delivery.
The production is still running. SP didn't give me the date when it will be done so I don't know what's the delay for delivery. Sorry! Please wait with patience. I will keep updating on news.
These are really great! Thanks for pushing for what you wanted in terms of legends and for keeping us updated!
Post by: horchata771 on Fri, 13 September 2019, 13:38:40
About the Alphas legends, I got a picture of real keycaps from SP:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/ro63HGe.jpg)
Look good. It's the final version and should be the same as what you will get after the production and delivery.
The production is still running. SP didn't give me the date when it will be done so I don't know what's the delay for delivery. Sorry! Please wait with patience. I will keep updating on news.
Whoa! Those look fantastic!! The wait will be well worth it for these.
Post by: codywanks on Fri, 13 September 2019, 13:40:43
Post by: pentathlos on Fri, 13 September 2019, 14:55:04
Post by: fn on Fri, 13 September 2019, 15:17:33
About the Alphas legends, I got a picture of real keycaps from SP:
Look good. It's the final version and should be the same as what you will get after the production and delivery.
The production is still running. SP didn't give me the date when it will be done so I don't know what's the delay for delivery. Sorry! Please wait with patience. I will keep updating on news.
They look awesome! no worries on the delay and thanks for the update
Post by: Resident on Sat, 14 September 2019, 07:53:27
Post by: tonny950111 on Mon, 16 September 2019, 05:51:00
Post by: hhkbp2 on Thu, 03 October 2019, 20:39:54
And it should be soon once Kono receives the production, and then start to ship your orders.
Here are some of pictures of the production kits:
(https://i.imgur.com/LyLv5FX.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FaiNVMF.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/MOWC8cE.jpg)
There are many kits in the GB, I'm gonna let you find out what the rest look like rather than post them all here. ;D
Cheers.
Post by: Saga on Thu, 03 October 2019, 20:41:56
Post by: qq on Thu, 03 October 2019, 20:43:10
I got message from SP that the production was finished. They're collating all the sets. It should be soon for them to do the shipment to Kono.
And it should be soon once Kono receives the production, and then start to ship your orders.
Here are some of pictures of the production kits:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/LyLv5FX.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/FaiNVMF.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/MOWC8cE.jpg)
There are many kits in the GB, I'm gonna let you find out what they look like rather than post them all here. ;D
Cheers.
Gosh, they're stunning. 1-year GB, the wait is (almost) over. 😋
Post by: qq on Thu, 03 October 2019, 20:53:38
s p a r e a l p h a s p l z
Probably you've already known, when the GB started, alphas were the most affordable kit ($40 or so), comparing to other non-sense pricey kits (yes, cadet and spacekeys, looking at you). I've known people bought a bunch of alphas only. You will surely find them in the aftermarket sometimes.
Post by: Saga on Thu, 03 October 2019, 22:35:42
s p a r e a l p h a s p l z
Probably you've already known, when the GB started, alphas were the most affordable kit ($40 or so), comparing to other non-sense pricey kits (yes, cadet and spacekeys, looking at you). I've known people bought a bunch of alphas only. You will surely find them in the aftermarket at sometimes.
I didn't know this, that's good to hear. I actually went ahead and bought all the other kits I'd need (since I'm a weirdo Norde user) and so all I need are the alphas.
Post by: horchata771 on Thu, 03 October 2019, 23:49:37
I got message from SP that the production was finished. They're collating all the sets. It should be soon for them to do the shipment to Kono.
And it should be soon once Kono receives the production, and then start to ship your orders.
Here are some of pictures of the production kits:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/LyLv5FX.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/FaiNVMF.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/MOWC8cE.jpg)
There are many kits in the GB, I'm gonna let you find out what the rest look like rather than post them all here. ;D
Cheers.
Holy bajoley!! Those emacs symbols look..... beautiful. :thumb:
Post by: BalticSubmarine on Sat, 05 October 2019, 13:19:54
Post by: mimalik on Sat, 05 October 2019, 15:31:55
I got message from SP that the production was finished. They're collating all the sets. It should be soon for them to do the shipment to Kono.
And it should be soon once Kono receives the production, and then start to ship your orders.
Here are some of pictures of the production kits:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/LyLv5FX.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/FaiNVMF.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/MOWC8cE.jpg)
There are many kits in the GB, I'm gonna let you find out what the rest look like rather than post them all here. ;D
Cheers.
Habana habana habana......dont care how much time it took, but getting it right was correct way, patiently waiting to get my hands on this.
Post by: piit79 on Sat, 05 October 2019, 18:53:37
Kono, I am disappoint.
Post by: jimboytacos on Sat, 05 October 2019, 19:34:09
Are other vendors going to be doing the same? Zfrontier? Etc?
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sat, 05 October 2019, 21:16:48
So, after waiting for the set for 6 months, I get a message from Kono they oversold some of the kits (ortho in my case) and I won't be getting it :(
Kono, I am disappoint.
So apparently, Kono oversold many kits and are cancelling orders.
Are other vendors going to be doing the same? Zfrontier? Etc?
So both your orders were canceled due to oversale? Terrible to hear that. It's like shooting in the foot themselves for the business......
Post by: Kono Store on Sat, 05 October 2019, 22:47:21
20-30 of the newest Kono orders amounting to around 2% of certain kits will be cancelled. For example — since Kono bought about 560 Alphas — we expect about 12 Alpha kits to be cancelled.
We sent an apology / notification email out and our support team is active this weekend to work things out.
This happened because we pushed the purchase order numbers up a few times during the group buy. At some point, those adjustments (which we made so more people could participate) fell slightly out of sync with actual numbers.
We're working with SP to have a second, smaller run of the most popular Symbiosis sets early next year. This will also help us serve some of the 20-30 people who are affected.
If you have any questions, please contact support@kono.store. Thank you for supporting, and waiting for, Symbiosis!
Post by: hottrout on Sun, 06 October 2019, 06:00:40
Post by: menuhin on Sun, 06 October 2019, 07:06:41
...
We're working with SP to have a second, smaller run of the most popular Symbiosis sets early next year...
Great! That means for those who missed the GB will have a second chance to join early next year together with some of the affected order that are later in the queue.
Post by: piit79 on Sun, 06 October 2019, 07:14:27
... together with some of the affected orders...
So I can have my ortho kit in just a year from now! Lovely. /s
Sorry, I understand mistakes happen and Kono are handling it reasonably well (even offering some store credit) but I'm still disappointed, as you might imagine.
Post by: Saga on Sun, 06 October 2019, 15:41:31
As someone who was planning on picking up a set of Alphas from mechmarket to go with the other sets I preordered (since Alphas were sold out) I really wish I could cancel my order, this is going to absolutely screw with the aftermarket in a big way. That's on me to a large extent, but still.
Post by: 5inn3d- on Fri, 11 October 2019, 10:36:09
Post by: ubiq on Mon, 14 October 2019, 16:31:31
Post by: AaronR on Mon, 14 October 2019, 16:45:52
Post by: hhkbp2 on Tue, 15 October 2019, 04:39:46
Any idea when zfrontier should be shipping orders?
I have no idea of their shipping time for this GB. It's usually several weeks after Kono ships orders.
Post by: FearsomeCubedWarrior on Tue, 15 October 2019, 05:28:56
Post by: piit79 on Tue, 15 October 2019, 05:36:07
Did you participate in GB, or did you order it after GB end as a pre-order items?
Why should that matter? :) A cancelled order is a cancelled order.
I'm in the same boat - my order for alphas, ortho and choices was fully cancelled.
For the record, I did join after the initial GB.
Post by: FearsomeCubedWarrior on Tue, 15 October 2019, 11:14:46
Post by: piit79 on Tue, 15 October 2019, 11:19:38
I'm trying to understand whether Kono cancels orders randomly or cutting off pre-orders only.If I understand correctly it's just the late pre-orders.
Post by: Saga on Tue, 15 October 2019, 14:37:28
Post by: EightDiagram on Wed, 23 October 2019, 14:32:25
Quote
We're finalizing some details and preparing a freight pickup right now.
Post by: piit79 on Wed, 23 October 2019, 16:41:32
Keycaps aren’t cheap, I’m not sure I’m going to trust Kono again after watching this.Although I do understand mistakes happen occasionally, I will also hesitate ordering from Kono in the future. My $140 was blocked for 6 months with nothing to show for it.
Post by: asdflkweoiaf23452 on Wed, 30 October 2019, 09:40:06
Post by: FearsomeCubedWarrior on Fri, 01 November 2019, 01:36:07
Post by: qq on Fri, 01 November 2019, 04:37:55
Quote
SA Symbiosis
Symbiosis has shipped from Signature Plastics is now on the way to our warehouse!
Post by: mimalik on Fri, 01 November 2019, 09:54:23
Post by: mimalik on Tue, 05 November 2019, 10:44:56
Post by: Wicky on Tue, 05 November 2019, 11:36:45
Post by: eas on Tue, 05 November 2019, 14:41:18
Edit: FedEx dropped off my kits Nov 7.
Post by: montydrei on Tue, 05 November 2019, 16:34:16
Post by: Audiobs on Tue, 05 November 2019, 17:27:33
Post by: jimboytacos on Wed, 06 November 2019, 03:13:13
If anyone wanna sell their CADR kit, I'd love to buy it. LMK.
Post by: EightDiagram on Wed, 06 November 2019, 07:25:25
Post by: tonny950111 on Wed, 06 November 2019, 07:55:12
I'm trying to understand whether Kono cancels orders randomly or cutting off pre-orders only.
Randomly, my pre-order was shipped yesterday.
Post by: bcbishop on Wed, 06 November 2019, 10:10:26
Have reached out to Kono for clarification on what’s going on. Hoping nothing’s gone awry with my groupbuy order given those are the caps I truly need.
Post by: DukeEsquire on Wed, 06 November 2019, 11:32:20
Post by: funkybeat7 on Thu, 07 November 2019, 11:18:18
I had a pre-order ship (placed may 2019), while my groupbuy order (from October 2018) is still listed as unfulfilled.
Have reached out to Kono for clarification on what’s going on. Hoping nothing’s gone awry with my groupbuy order given those are the caps I truly need.
I had the same thing happen, the next day (yesterday) my GB portion of the order shipped. I'd just recommend giving it a day or two for things to settle out.
Post by: Hotsauce on Thu, 07 November 2019, 11:26:07
Post by: bcbishop on Thu, 07 November 2019, 11:30:43
I had the same thing happen, the next day (yesterday) my GB portion of the order shipped. I'd just recommend giving it a day or two for things to settle out.
Thanks for the gut check. Same happened here. All appears to be right as rain. :-)
Post by: jimboytacos on Thu, 07 November 2019, 15:18:55
Post by: svenge on Thu, 07 November 2019, 18:21:14
[attach=1]
For the record, I'm just getting into this stuff, so this is my first custom keycap set and first attempt at this level of customization. Not used to waiting for over a year to receive an order but I think it was worth it.
(More pics here) (https://imgur.com/gallery/exNpwSt)
Post by: qq on Thu, 07 November 2019, 21:56:14
Shipping for zfrontier will not happen for another 2 weeks. SP delayed their shipment and it is currently in transit to their warehouse atm.
Well, at least we've been waiting for 52++ weeks, I can bear a couple of more weeks :(
Sorry to anybody still waiting or got cancelled... I'm typing this on my set which came in today ;D
(Attachment Link)
For the record, I'm just getting into this stuff, so this is my first custom keycap set and first attempt at this level of customization. Not used to waiting for over a year to receive an order but I think it was worth it.
(More pics here) (https://imgur.com/gallery/exNpwSt)
They are gorgeous, man. Can't wait to see all the novelties in real life.
Post by: Ensaum on Thu, 07 November 2019, 22:56:53
Sorry to anybody still waiting or got cancelled... I'm typing this on my set which came in today ;D
(Attachment Link)
For the record, I'm just getting into this stuff, so this is my first custom keycap set and first attempt at this level of customization. Not used to waiting for over a year to receive an order but I think it was worth it.
(More pics here) (https://imgur.com/gallery/exNpwSt)
I was super disappointed with the colors in your pictures at first, and then I realized I had window's blue light filter turned on...
Looks fantastic and can't wait for my set. They should be here tomorrow or Saturday.
Post by: kmicu on Fri, 08 November 2019, 02:48:32
Post by: FearsomeCubedWarrior on Fri, 08 November 2019, 04:23:09
Post by: kmicu on Fri, 08 November 2019, 04:52:36
[attach=1]
Post by: menuhin on Fri, 08 November 2019, 05:05:19
... labels too big ...
... majority of labels is white and the rest is black‑too much colors ...
That was trying to follow the way of enlarged legends after the footstep of 7bit's creation (like the last one with Rounds SA caps you've posted).
Most people like these larger and clearer legends better than the default Signature Plastic SA legends.
And on the white and black.
That was trying to resemble the Space-Cadet Keyboard.
Well, I agree the yellow accents can be a bit too much for some people, but it also adds extra liveliness and a modern touch to the design.
Post by: bardomudo on Fri, 08 November 2019, 11:30:15
Sorry to anybody still waiting or got cancelled... I'm typing this on my set which came in today ;D
(Attachment Link)
For the record, I'm just getting into this stuff, so this is my first custom keycap set and first attempt at this level of customization. Not used to waiting for over a year to receive an order but I think it was worth it.
(More pics here) (https://imgur.com/gallery/exNpwSt)
I think it looks amazing and I couldn't be happier. Mine's out for delivery today to my proxy. Can't wait.
Post by: DukeEsquire on Fri, 08 November 2019, 13:25:38
If you want me to be more constructive then renders posted here in the past look much better than reality. So if you read this and you are a newcomer like me, keep that in mind when you really want to buy something non‑existing yet—it’s a gamble. Though maybe I’m just annoyed by those additional yellow accents 🤷
(Attachment Link)
Is there anything more petty than complaining about the color of yellow accent keys even though the set comes with blue replacement accent keys?
Post by: qq on Fri, 08 November 2019, 15:13:13
I know that we should not feed the trolls, but here those grapes must be very sour.If you want me to be more constructive then renders posted here in the past look much better than reality. So if you read this and you are a newcomer like me, keep that in mind when you really want to buy something non‑existing yet—it’s a gamble. Though maybe I’m just annoyed by those additional yellow accents
(Attachment Link)
Is there anything more petty than complaining about the color of yellow accent keys even though the set comes with blue replacement accent keys?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Ensaum on Fri, 08 November 2019, 17:19:50
(https://i.imgur.com/qqA7Xb6.jpg)
Post by: jimboytacos on Fri, 08 November 2019, 19:08:36
Post by: gbchk on Fri, 08 November 2019, 21:30:03
If you want me to be more constructive then renders posted here in the past look much better than reality. So if you read this and you are a newcomer like me, keep that in mind when you really want to buy something non‑existing yet—it’s a gamble. Though maybe I’m just annoyed by those additional yellow accents 🤷
(Attachment Link)
Not sure why you're ****ting on it if you don't even have a set to compare to renders or whatever else. I own original 7bit space cadet caps and these are very close in terms of color. The blue is basically spot on and the grey is slightly warmer, less blue-ish. Looking at them in anything except direct light side-by-side, you'd never notice a difference. The biggest difference is the legends of course, but there was nothing that could be done because 7bit basically fell off the face of the earth. Speaking of which I have no idea why you're saying the legends are too big because if anything, they're still too small compared to 7bit's.
Either way the set is great and I think anyone who is unable to get original 7bit caps should be super stoked with these.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sat, 09 November 2019, 00:28:40
I think we have enough discussion about its colors, legends, relation/difference with 7bit's product, etc. before. Not gonna repeat them now, when everything was settled and vendors are shipping the products. The GB reaches what we sailed out to go and I'm happy for that.
It's a long time since the GB opened, even longer if you came along as the IC started. Thank you for your support all along the road. Hope you will enjoy what you get. I'm looking forward to more and more nice pictures from you guys using this keyset on different builds. Cheers.
Post by: svenge on Sat, 09 November 2019, 00:51:13
Let me know if anyone wants to let go of their set(s).
I would also consider trading for / purchasing R1 choices, blue or grey (pref. blue), either numerals or the pointy hands. I could use them for my media keys.
Here are my single unit spares (although I would probably not trade the blue arrow set):
R1: Blue "ESC" (x2), "TAB", "SHIFT", "BACK SPACE", "=", Yellow "ESC", Grey "\"
R2: Blue "-",
R3: Blue "+", "UP", "DOWN", "LEFT", "RIGHT", Yellow "UP", Grey "0", "00", "5", "F", "J"
R4: Blue "UP"
Post by: kmicu on Sat, 09 November 2019, 05:17:54
OofThank you. That looks much better and not as toyish as that previous take.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/qqA7Xb6.jpg)
Not sure why you're ****ting onI wanted to check whether I want to buy this set in aftermarket.
Now, after seeing real pics, I know that I don’t; there’s no mystery here.
If you have both sets then could you post pictures of both of them side by side?
PS also I don’t want to look happy and give a strong signal to sellers
that they can push over buyers. If you aren’t angry after paying
upfront and waiting a year for something not special
then you dig your own Apple‑like grave.
Post by: Ensaum on Sat, 09 November 2019, 12:31:23
[attachimg=1]
It's still a little overexposed, but this is the best quick edit I could do with a picture form my crappy cell phone camera.
Post by: cijanzen on Sat, 09 November 2019, 12:34:45
Here's another picture in better lighting. I edited it in lightroom to look as close as possible to what I actually see in person.
(Attachment Link)
Looks amazing. Now I’m sad I didn’t get the blue modifiers as they are nicer than the renders even conveyed. Can’t wait to get my alphas and grey choices
Post by: Ensaum on Sat, 09 November 2019, 12:37:55
Here's another picture in better lighting. I edited it in lightroom to look as close as possible to what I actually see in person.
(Attachment Link)
Looks amazing. Now I’m sad I didn’t get the blue modifiers as they are nicer than the renders even conveyed. Can’t wait to get my alphas and grey choices
It's stunning in person. It's very hard to accurately capture with my current equipment though.
Edit: Annnd with a little more work.. [attach=1]
Post by: gbchk on Sat, 09 November 2019, 13:48:35
Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.
(https://i.imgur.com/SZdl27K.jpg)
Post by: cijanzen on Sat, 09 November 2019, 13:51:44
Here's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.
Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/SZdl27K.jpg)
Nice comparison. I actually prefer the smaller legends myself so this is a win for me.
Post by: TheEerieCold on Sat, 09 November 2019, 14:30:54
(https://i.imgur.com/BrylYzD.jpg)
Round 6 on the left, Symbiosis 2.0 on the right.
(https://i.imgur.com/PFE65ED.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LyLizrl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ixwNcPI.jpg)
The differences are quite minimal, legends are slightly larger and more centered on Symbiosis. Sorry for the messy 7bit caps, they have been sitting for a while.
Post by: menuhin on Sat, 09 November 2019, 15:52:27
Here's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.
Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/SZdl27K.jpg)
When we look closer, we can see why the SA Rounds (4/5/6) caps of 7bit were so sought after.
For those who want to improve future Groupbuys of keycap sets and their legends, let's click "more" to see the details 7bit has worked on for the 'Rounds' set.
For those who want Geekhack, a supposedly IC & GB website now, that has been more open to critics pushing boundaries to keep on improving our future keyboard life, instead to become more like r/MK that downvote all constructive comments when that is even just slightly more direct and pointing to the fact, then it is okay to skip the "more"
More
(https://i.imgur.com/KeaHCGN.jpg)
1. The bigger size legends are to resemble the actual keycap set on the genuine Space Cadet keyboard
(http://xahlee.info/kbd/lisp_kbd/space-cadet_keyboard_3.jpg)
Just look at the D and the F keys of Rounds. See how legends on the alpha keys are more "blown-up", and the Rounds capture this design language (other than the usual font parameters of SP) much better.
For a few times, Signature Plastics made the legends too small to 7bit taste, and then 7bit reject those as seconds and sold them in a reduced price.
And now I see that I could have gotten those instead, but I didn't expect 7bit to disappear for such a long time.
2. Also, the legends of 1, 2, and 3 I just discovered and made me see this round as yet even more different from the Rounds.
Look at the numeral keys 1, 2, and 3 -- they are totally different font designs from the Rounds, which resembles the originals on the Space Cadet keyboard which I also prefer.
zslane followed for years the thread-of-hundreds pages of 7bit's Rounds Groupbuy on Deskthority and then he himself worked also as PayPal money collector for the Groupbuy. When he eventually ran his Groupbuys with (Mass)Drop, his SA Dasher & Dancer also used similar legends. Look at the beautiful 1, 2, and 3 on the numeric row:
(https://massdrop-s3.imgix.net/product-images/dasher-and-dancer-sa-custom-keycap-set/MD-32558_20161215005127_084f84aff98893f7.jpg)
The above was just a render. And in reality:
The default Signature Plastic fonts can be seen here on this SA 1976 set, with their SP 1, 2, and 3, and their "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2":
(https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/keychatter_2015-06-16_23-01-16.jpg)
During those time in 2012-2014, I don't know how much time and effort 7bit spent on this endeavor of Rounds - when no one has done that before.
1. The bigger size legends are to resemble the actual keycap set on the genuine Space Cadet keyboard
(http://xahlee.info/kbd/lisp_kbd/space-cadet_keyboard_3.jpg)
Just look at the D and the F keys of Rounds. See how legends on the alpha keys are more "blown-up", and the Rounds capture this design language (other than the usual font parameters of SP) much better.
For a few times, Signature Plastics made the legends too small to 7bit taste, and then 7bit reject those as seconds and sold them in a reduced price.
And now I see that I could have gotten those instead, but I didn't expect 7bit to disappear for such a long time.
2. Also, the legends of 1, 2, and 3 I just discovered and made me see this round as yet even more different from the Rounds.
Look at the numeral keys 1, 2, and 3 -- they are totally different font designs from the Rounds, which resembles the originals on the Space Cadet keyboard which I also prefer.
(https://massdrop-s3.imgix.net/product-images/dasher-and-dancer-sa-custom-keycap-set/MD-32558_20161215005127_084f84aff98893f7.jpg)
The above was just a render. And in reality:
More
(http://www.griffy.no/Pics/keyboard/Dasher/2.jpg)
The default Signature Plastic fonts can be seen here on this SA 1976 set, with their SP 1, 2, and 3, and their "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2":
(https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/keychatter_2015-06-16_23-01-16.jpg)
During those time in 2012-2014, I don't know how much time and effort 7bit spent on this endeavor of Rounds - when no one has done that before.
I lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.
Our OP has already done a lot, as shown, in his previous posts.
I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.
Post by: TheEerieCold on Sat, 09 November 2019, 17:46:50
Post by: Audiobs on Sat, 09 November 2019, 22:51:27
Here's another picture in better lighting. I edited it in lightroom to look as close as possible to what I actually see in person.
(Attachment Link)
Looks amazing. Now I’m sad I didn’t get the blue modifiers as they are nicer than the renders even conveyed. Can’t wait to get my alphas and grey choices
You and me both.
Post by: FRANCO on Sun, 10 November 2019, 10:14:42
Here's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.
Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/SZdl27K.jpg)
How are these compared to the 7bit grey numpad? From the few pictures I saw, they're basically identical
Post by: menuhin on Sun, 10 November 2019, 11:18:00
Here's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.
Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/SZdl27K.jpg)
How are these compared to the 7bit grey numpad? From the few pictures I saw, they're basically identical
I thought about this as well.
I think that was because the Space Cadet Keyboard does not have a numpad.
(http://xahlee.info/kbd/lisp_kbd/space-cadet_keyboard_1.jpg)
He could have made the legend fonts totally consistent.
e.g. this one, the numeral row '3' on this German layout set is again just the SP default font.
(https://i.imgur.com/Guvhbzd.jpg)
However, he did pay some attention to the numpad's '3'.
As you can see SA "Nuclear Data" and SA "Pulse" have the SP default '3' font, but Rounds have the Space Cadet '3'.
More
(https://i.imgur.com/J5DYOve.jpg)
(https://i.redd.it/z5mtn5cfz6n31.jpg)
(https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-ktpi93fl/products/186/images/1416/n2__99958.1536160542.1280.1280.jpg?c=2)
(https://i.redd.it/z5mtn5cfz6n31.jpg)
(https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-ktpi93fl/products/186/images/1416/n2__99958.1536160542.1280.1280.jpg?c=2)
Post by: FRANCO on Sun, 10 November 2019, 15:10:36
I thought about this as well.
I think that was because the Space Cadet Keyboard does not have a numpad.
He could have made the legend fonts totally consistent.
e.g. this one, the numeral row '3' on this German layout set is again just the SP default font.
Ahh nice...yea, I may try to snag a Symbiosis numpad if I can find one (or two)
Post by: tchalikias on Mon, 11 November 2019, 10:34:30
Post by: menuhin on Mon, 11 November 2019, 11:37:54
Sigh... sadly I missed out on this set, and second hand prices are already - as expected - through the roof... I hate flippers.
I hate flippers big time.
Real estate traders are the biggest flippers collaborating with the developers: if it wasn't their flipping, people may not have to work 20+ years off their mortgages in some cities in the world.
I hope the custom keyboard market is more reasonable... but see the Cherry 5000, OTD, and now even the TGR...
Post by: DukeEsquire on Mon, 11 November 2019, 11:47:34
SA Symbiosis had an unlimited GB and then had a "pre-sale" after that for slightly increased prices. Can't get much easier than that.
Post by: montydrei on Tue, 12 November 2019, 17:29:59
Post by: gbchk on Tue, 12 November 2019, 19:10:57
Post by: svenge on Tue, 12 November 2019, 20:47:55
I sadly could not afford to get a full set of Symbiosis 2.0, but I was able to get just the alphas and mix it with my Godspeed modifiers:
That looks DOPE - never seen those before, the godspeed and panic buttons are a particularly nice complement to the symbiosis set. I think you made out pretty good there.
PS: I'm still willing to trade or buy for unused R1 choices :)
Post by: nightdriver on Tue, 12 November 2019, 22:17:00
turned what was otherwise an exciting arrival into an "oh **** how did i lose a keycap i was so careful?" but i'm sure i didn't lose it and this key seems like its "replacement".
guess i'll contact kono support. set looks awesome otherwise and i'm typing on it right now, but for this price and this amount of waiting time, i deserve to have it flawless.
Post by: Ensaum on Tue, 12 November 2019, 22:33:36
I'll most likely be selling my alphas, mods, spacebars and possibly other kits in a few months if anyone wants to wait. Not interested in flipping, will charge whatever I paid.
If you have arrows and/or grey choices then I'd be interested in those.
Post by: Ensaum on Tue, 12 November 2019, 22:36:16
did anybody else get what seems to be an R2 "esc" key instead of their delete key, or did i just get "lucky" somehow? this R2 "esc" key isn't even supposed to exist, is it?
turned what was otherwise an exciting arrival into an "oh **** how did i lose a keycap i was so careful?" but i'm sure i didn't lose it and this key seems like its "replacement".
guess i'll contact kono support. set looks awesome otherwise and i'm typing on it right now, but for this price and this amount of waiting time, i deserve to have iet flawless.
R2 Escape was in the 40s kit. If you ordered a 40s kit then I'd check in there for your R1 Escape.
Post by: nightdriver on Tue, 12 November 2019, 22:44:18
did anybody else get what seems to be an R2 "esc" key instead of their delete key, or did i just get "lucky" somehow? this R2 "esc" key isn't even supposed to exist, is it?
turned what was otherwise an exciting arrival into an "oh **** how did i lose a keycap i was so careful?" but i'm sure i didn't lose it and this key seems like its "replacement".
guess i'll contact kono support. set looks awesome otherwise and i'm typing on it right now, but for this price and this amount of waiting time, i deserve to have iet flawless.
R2 Escape was in the 40s kit. If you ordered a 40s kit then I'd check in there for your R1 Escape.
i did not order a 40s kit. but at least that explains how the key exists. i guess somebody who ordered the 40s kit probably got my delete key. anyway thanks for the response, at least i'm less confused about how this happened. i was like ???
Post by: dr_unconscionable on Tue, 19 November 2019, 11:27:46
Post by: tonny950111 on Wed, 20 November 2019, 16:42:47
Here's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.
Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/SZdl27K.jpg)
When we look closer, we can see why the SA Rounds (4/5/6) caps of 7bit were so sought after.
For those who want to improve future Groupbuys of keycap sets and their legends, let's click "more" to see the details 7bit has worked on for the 'Rounds' set.
For those who want Geekhack, a supposedly IC & GB website now, that has been more open to critics pushing boundaries to keep on improving our future keyboard life, instead to become more like r/MK that downvote all constructive comments when that is even just slightly more direct and pointing to the fact, then it is okay to skip the "more"MoreShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/KeaHCGN.jpg)
1. The bigger size legends are to resemble the actual keycap set on the genuine Space Cadet keyboardShow Image(http://xahlee.info/kbd/lisp_kbd/space-cadet_keyboard_3.jpg)
Just look at the D and the F keys of Rounds. See how legends on the alpha keys are more "blown-up", and the Rounds capture this design language (other than the usual font parameters of SP) much better.
For a few times, Signature Plastics made the legends too small to 7bit taste, and then 7bit reject those as seconds and sold them in a reduced price.
And now I see that I could have gotten those instead, but I didn't expect 7bit to disappear for such a long time.
2. Also, the legends of 1, 2, and 3 I just discovered and made me see this round as yet even more different from the Rounds.
Look at the numeral keys 1, 2, and 3 -- they are totally different font designs from the Rounds, which resembles the originals on the Space Cadet keyboard which I also prefer.zslane followed for years the thread-of-hundreds pages of 7bit's Rounds Groupbuy on Deskthority and then he himself worked also as PayPal money collector for the Groupbuy. When he eventually ran his Groupbuys with (Mass)Drop, his SA Dasher & Dancer also used similar legends. Look at the beautiful 1, 2, and 3 on the numeric row:Show Image(https://massdrop-s3.imgix.net/product-images/dasher-and-dancer-sa-custom-keycap-set/MD-32558_20161215005127_084f84aff98893f7.jpg)
The above was just a render. And in reality:MoreShow Image(http://www.griffy.no/Pics/keyboard/Dasher/2.jpg)
The default Signature Plastic fonts can be seen here on this SA 1976 set, with their SP 1, 2, and 3, and their "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2":Show Image(https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/keychatter_2015-06-16_23-01-16.jpg)
During those time in 2012-2014, I don't know how much time and effort 7bit spent on this endeavor of Rounds - when no one has done that before.
I lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.
Our OP has already done a lot, as shown, in his previous posts.
I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.
To the contrary, I would prefer the current Symbiosis R2 legends rather than the 7-bit round 4/5/6 legends. I mean, I know 7-bit legends for alphas are more closer to the original Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keyboard that developed by MIT, but those "blown-up"/enlarged legends are a little bit out of coordination in nowadays standards. I can totally understand that someone want an exact replica of a "Cherry MX" compatible version Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keycap set, but to me, personally I like the legends on "Cadet Alphas" to be not that enlarged/stretched out.
Post by: menuhin on Thu, 21 November 2019, 05:59:24
Here's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.
Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/SZdl27K.jpg)
When we look closer, we can see why the SA Rounds (4/5/6) caps of 7bit were so sought after.
For those who want to improve future Groupbuys of keycap sets and their legends, let's click "more" to see the details 7bit has worked on for the 'Rounds' set.
For those who want Geekhack, a supposedly IC & GB website now, that has been more open to critics pushing boundaries to keep on improving our future keyboard life, instead to become more like r/MK that downvote all constructive comments when that is even just slightly more direct and pointing to the fact, then it is okay to skip the "more"MoreShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/KeaHCGN.jpg)
1. The bigger size legends are to resemble the actual keycap set on the genuine Space Cadet keyboardShow Image(http://xahlee.info/kbd/lisp_kbd/space-cadet_keyboard_3.jpg)
Just look at the D and the F keys of Rounds. See how legends on the alpha keys are more "blown-up", and the Rounds capture this design language (other than the usual font parameters of SP) much better.
For a few times, Signature Plastics made the legends too small to 7bit taste, and then 7bit reject those as seconds and sold them in a reduced price.
And now I see that I could have gotten those instead, but I didn't expect 7bit to disappear for such a long time.
2. Also, the legends of 1, 2, and 3 I just discovered and made me see this round as yet even more different from the Rounds.
Look at the numeral keys 1, 2, and 3 -- they are totally different font designs from the Rounds, which resembles the originals on the Space Cadet keyboard which I also prefer.zslane followed for years the thread-of-hundreds pages of 7bit's Rounds Groupbuy on Deskthority and then he himself worked also as PayPal money collector for the Groupbuy. When he eventually ran his Groupbuys with (Mass)Drop, his SA Dasher & Dancer also used similar legends. Look at the beautiful 1, 2, and 3 on the numeric row:Show Image(https://massdrop-s3.imgix.net/product-images/dasher-and-dancer-sa-custom-keycap-set/MD-32558_20161215005127_084f84aff98893f7.jpg)
The above was just a render. And in reality:MoreShow Image(http://www.griffy.no/Pics/keyboard/Dasher/2.jpg)
The default Signature Plastic fonts can be seen here on this SA 1976 set, with their SP 1, 2, and 3, and their "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2":Show Image(https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/keychatter_2015-06-16_23-01-16.jpg)
During those time in 2012-2014, I don't know how much time and effort 7bit spent on this endeavor of Rounds - when no one has done that before.
I lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.
Our OP has already done a lot, as shown, in his previous posts.
I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.
To the contrary, I would prefer the current Symbiosis R2 legends rather than the 7-bit round 4/5/6 legends. I mean, I know 7-bit legends for alphas are more closer to the original Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keyboard that developed by MIT, but those "blown-up"/enlarged legends are a little bit out of coordination in nowadays standards. I can totally understand that someone want an exact replica of a "Cherry MX" compatible version Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keycap set, but to me, personally I like the legends on "Cadet Alphas" to be not that enlarged/stretched out.
What are the "nowadays standards", and who is to judge a design is "out of coordination"? Can I say the Planck keyboard is "out of coordination"?
I just pointed out the differences between this run and the rounds, however, it is fair to say OP didn't promise to have a replica of 7bit's Rounds or the design of original Space Cadet keyboard.
I also pointed out SP were reluctant to go through the trouble of swapping their default legends and default legend-size with custom designs, and that down-to-the-details replication effort makes the Rounds rare.
After all, it's a matter of taste for the legend size.
It is also a matter of taste for the legend fonts, if one likes SP's "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2", and their quite different 3, 2, and 1.
More
(https://i.imgur.com/KeaHCGN.jpg)
Post by: hhkbp2 on Thu, 21 November 2019, 08:23:03
Here's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.
Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/SZdl27K.jpg)
When we look closer, we can see why the SA Rounds (4/5/6) caps of 7bit were so sought after.
For those who want to improve future Groupbuys of keycap sets and their legends, let's click "more" to see the details 7bit has worked on for the 'Rounds' set.
For those who want Geekhack, a supposedly IC & GB website now, that has been more open to critics pushing boundaries to keep on improving our future keyboard life, instead to become more like r/MK that downvote all constructive comments when that is even just slightly more direct and pointing to the fact, then it is okay to skip the "more"MoreShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/KeaHCGN.jpg)
1. The bigger size legends are to resemble the actual keycap set on the genuine Space Cadet keyboardShow Image(http://xahlee.info/kbd/lisp_kbd/space-cadet_keyboard_3.jpg)
Just look at the D and the F keys of Rounds. See how legends on the alpha keys are more "blown-up", and the Rounds capture this design language (other than the usual font parameters of SP) much better.
For a few times, Signature Plastics made the legends too small to 7bit taste, and then 7bit reject those as seconds and sold them in a reduced price.
And now I see that I could have gotten those instead, but I didn't expect 7bit to disappear for such a long time.
2. Also, the legends of 1, 2, and 3 I just discovered and made me see this round as yet even more different from the Rounds.
Look at the numeral keys 1, 2, and 3 -- they are totally different font designs from the Rounds, which resembles the originals on the Space Cadet keyboard which I also prefer.zslane followed for years the thread-of-hundreds pages of 7bit's Rounds Groupbuy on Deskthority and then he himself worked also as PayPal money collector for the Groupbuy. When he eventually ran his Groupbuys with (Mass)Drop, his SA Dasher & Dancer also used similar legends. Look at the beautiful 1, 2, and 3 on the numeric row:Show Image(https://massdrop-s3.imgix.net/product-images/dasher-and-dancer-sa-custom-keycap-set/MD-32558_20161215005127_084f84aff98893f7.jpg)
The above was just a render. And in reality:MoreShow Image(http://www.griffy.no/Pics/keyboard/Dasher/2.jpg)
The default Signature Plastic fonts can be seen here on this SA 1976 set, with their SP 1, 2, and 3, and their "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2":Show Image(https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/keychatter_2015-06-16_23-01-16.jpg)
During those time in 2012-2014, I don't know how much time and effort 7bit spent on this endeavor of Rounds - when no one has done that before.
I lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.
Our OP has already done a lot, as shown, in his previous posts.
I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.
To the contrary, I would prefer the current Symbiosis R2 legends rather than the 7-bit round 4/5/6 legends. I mean, I know 7-bit legends for alphas are more closer to the original Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keyboard that developed by MIT, but those "blown-up"/enlarged legends are a little bit out of coordination in nowadays standards. I can totally understand that someone want an exact replica of a "Cherry MX" compatible version Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keycap set, but to me, personally I like the legends on "Cadet Alphas" to be not that enlarged/stretched out.
What are the "nowadays standards", and who is to judge a design is "out of coordination"? Can I say the Planck keyboard is "out of coordination"?
I just pointed out the differences between this run and the rounds, however, it is fair to say OP didn't promise to have a replica of 7bit's Rounds or the design of original Space Cadet keyboard.
I also pointed out SP were reluctant to go through the trouble of swapping their default legends and default legend-size with custom designs, and that down-to-the-details replication effort makes the Rounds rare.
After all, it's a matter of taste for the legend size.
It is also a matter of taste for the legend fonts, if one likes SP's "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2", and their quite different 3, 2, and 1.MoreShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/KeaHCGN.jpg)
Fair enough. As I said, we have enough discussion about 7bit's products during IC/GB. I don't want to orally wrestle with anyone who prefers 7bit's products. But, it feels annoying if someone pours his preference talks on 7bit's products in this Symbiosis Group Buy thread again and again.
I didn't want to replicate 7bit's creation from the very beginning of Symbiosis R2 IC. I didn't want to replace 7bit to provide his products. This Symbiosis R2 GB had a clear idea/goal to reuse all the existing SP publicly accessible toolings of number row, NorDE legends, etc. considering the cost of making new legends, and to maintain max compatibility among legends of all kits/keys. It's just a trade-off like many things in computer industry. And at the end outcome products of this GB archived this goal.
We have gone through details when someone said "only 7bit cares about doing tribute sets correctly" previously during IC. 7bit's creation had many issues and inconsistencies too, e.g. you noticed some of these issues/inconsistencies in your previous posts. We could talk all day about 7bit this and Symbiosis that. But in the end of the day, any design inspired by a vintage keyboard/keyset is just a simulation of the original, have different design goals/limitations on their own. Like I said previously as response to the "only 7bit doing correctly" guy, it's not true that only one way to make a keyset. There is no correct or wrong, they are just different ideas and preferences.
You seemed to know a lot of stuff on SP's legends/procedures & what happened in Symbiosis GB. But many things you said are wrong. For example,
Quote
I lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.
Making keysets via SP is definitely different from building roads. In a keyset design/GB, many things are copyrighted to only a few designers while roads are usually public, as you implied in your words - they're shared in counties. Your analogy is only true when anyone could freely use 7bit's design and toolings - which is not true unfortunately. I have no idea why you use this analogy.
Quote
I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.
We won't get 7bit's creation. We don't plan to produce that. Symbiosis R2 produced space-cadet inspired legends, big enough to fit the publicly accessible SP number row, NorDE legends. The legends are not as big as what's in 7bit's products, but they don't have to be. It's not a sloppy at all.
Again, I have no idea why you said I did't have enough email exchanges with SP. It looks stupid when you pretended you knew a lot but actually you knew so little.
Post by: fireworm on Thu, 21 November 2019, 09:21:03
Personally, I like them.Here's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.
Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/SZdl27K.jpg)
When we look closer, we can see why the SA Rounds (4/5/6) caps of 7bit were so sought after.
For those who want to improve future Groupbuys of keycap sets and their legends, let's click "more" to see the details 7bit has worked on for the 'Rounds' set.
For those who want Geekhack, a supposedly IC & GB website now, that has been more open to critics pushing boundaries to keep on improving our future keyboard life, instead to become more like r/MK that downvote all constructive comments when that is even just slightly more direct and pointing to the fact, then it is okay to skip the "more"MoreShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/KeaHCGN.jpg)
1. The bigger size legends are to resemble the actual keycap set on the genuine Space Cadet keyboardShow Image(http://xahlee.info/kbd/lisp_kbd/space-cadet_keyboard_3.jpg)
Just look at the D and the F keys of Rounds. See how legends on the alpha keys are more "blown-up", and the Rounds capture this design language (other than the usual font parameters of SP) much better.
For a few times, Signature Plastics made the legends too small to 7bit taste, and then 7bit reject those as seconds and sold them in a reduced price.
And now I see that I could have gotten those instead, but I didn't expect 7bit to disappear for such a long time.
2. Also, the legends of 1, 2, and 3 I just discovered and made me see this round as yet even more different from the Rounds.
Look at the numeral keys 1, 2, and 3 -- they are totally different font designs from the Rounds, which resembles the originals on the Space Cadet keyboard which I also prefer.zslane followed for years the thread-of-hundreds pages of 7bit's Rounds Groupbuy on Deskthority and then he himself worked also as PayPal money collector for the Groupbuy. When he eventually ran his Groupbuys with (Mass)Drop, his SA Dasher & Dancer also used similar legends. Look at the beautiful 1, 2, and 3 on the numeric row:Show Image(https://massdrop-s3.imgix.net/product-images/dasher-and-dancer-sa-custom-keycap-set/MD-32558_20161215005127_084f84aff98893f7.jpg)
The above was just a render. And in reality:MoreShow Image(http://www.griffy.no/Pics/keyboard/Dasher/2.jpg)
The default Signature Plastic fonts can be seen here on this SA 1976 set, with their SP 1, 2, and 3, and their "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2":Show Image(https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/keychatter_2015-06-16_23-01-16.jpg)
During those time in 2012-2014, I don't know how much time and effort 7bit spent on this endeavor of Rounds - when no one has done that before.
I lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.
Our OP has already done a lot, as shown, in his previous posts.
I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.
To the contrary, I would prefer the current Symbiosis R2 legends rather than the 7-bit round 4/5/6 legends. I mean, I know 7-bit legends for alphas are more closer to the original Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keyboard that developed by MIT, but those "blown-up"/enlarged legends are a little bit out of coordination in nowadays standards. I can totally understand that someone want an exact replica of a "Cherry MX" compatible version Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keycap set, but to me, personally I like the legends on "Cadet Alphas" to be not that enlarged/stretched out.
What are the "nowadays standards", and who is to judge a design is "out of coordination"? Can I say the Planck keyboard is "out of coordination"?
I just pointed out the differences between this run and the rounds, however, it is fair to say OP didn't promise to have a replica of 7bit's Rounds or the design of original Space Cadet keyboard.
I also pointed out SP were reluctant to go through the trouble of swapping their default legends and default legend-size with custom designs, and that down-to-the-details replication effort makes the Rounds rare.
After all, it's a matter of taste for the legend size.
It is also a matter of taste for the legend fonts, if one likes SP's "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2", and their quite different 3, 2, and 1.MoreShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/KeaHCGN.jpg)
Fair enough. As I said, we have enough discussion about 7bit's products during IC/GB. I don't want to orally wrestle with anyone who prefers 7bit's products. But, it feels annoying if someone pours his preference talks on 7bit's products in this Symbiosis Group Buy thread again and again.
I didn't want to replicate 7bit's creation from the very beginning of Symbiosis R2 IC. I didn't want to replace 7bit to provide his products. This Symbiosis R2 GB had a clear idea/goal to reuse all the existing SP publicly accessible toolings of number row, NorDE legends, etc. considering the cost of making new legends, and to maintain max compatibility among legends of all kits/keys. It's just a trade-off like many things in computer industry. And at the end outcome products of this GB archived this goal.
We have gone through details when someone said "only 7bit cares about doing tribute sets correctly" previously during IC. 7bit's creation had many issues and inconsistencies too, e.g. you noticed some of these issues/inconsistencies in your previous posts. We could talk all day about 7bit this and Symbiosis that. But in the end of the day, any design inspired by a vintage keyboard/keyset is just a simulation of the original, have different design goals/limitations on their own. Like I said previously as response to the "only 7bit doing correctly" guy, it's not true that only one way to make a keyset. There is no correct or wrong, they are just different ideas and preferences.
You seemed to know a lot of stuff on SP's legends/procedures & what happened in Symbiosis GB. But many things you said are wrong. For example,QuoteI lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.
Making keysets via SP is definitely different from building roads. In a keyset design/GB, many things are copyrighted to only a few designers while roads are usually public, as you implied in your words - they're shared in counties. Your analogy is only true when anyone could freely use 7bit's design and toolings - which is not true unfortunately. I have no idea why you use this analogy.QuoteI am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.
We won't get 7bit's creation. We don't plan to produce that. Symbiosis R2 produced space-cadet inspired legends, big enough to fit the publicly accessible SP number row, NorDE legends. The legends are not as big as what's in 7bit's products, but they don't have to be. It's not a sloppy at all.
Again, I have no idea why you said I did't have enough email exchanges with SP. It looks stupid when you pretended you knew a lot but actually you knew so little.
I think it's fine to compare them to 7bit, like comparing to GMK Space Cadet, or even XDA Canvas (because people love comparing things...no matter how different). Are they different? Yep, as designed. Do people prefer one over the other? Yep.
Are we better off with unique takes based on the same inspiration, instead of everyone copying each other? Most likely. ;)
Post by: Fabi on Thu, 21 November 2019, 09:27:50
Post by: EightDiagram on Thu, 21 November 2019, 09:32:56
Most seem quite satisfied with the results, including myself (kudos hhkbp). Those who wish to compare and debate the past and present variations of the set should probably create a separate thread for that. Now then, who's got a set of Blue Choices they'd like to part with? ;D
Post by: hhkbp2 on Thu, 21 November 2019, 11:04:55
Quote
I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.
Quote
it is fair to say OP didn't promise to have a replica of 7bit's Rounds or the design of original Space Cadet keyboard.
I also pointed out SP were reluctant to go through the trouble of swapping their default legends and default legend-size with custom designs,
Even from the beginning of Symbiosis R2 IC, I heard people said they wanted something in 7bit's Rounds. But Symbiosis R2 didn't plan to replicate 7bit or replace him to provide his products. I could understand that someone who expects 7bit's clone(or close replica) would be disappointed, only because they think a big font size would be superior, they think the colors of Symbiosis R2 are too much, or they don't like the R2 novelties, etc.. These are preferences and they make sense. But we did what we planned to do for Symbiosis R2. If you paid attention to this GB, you would know we had several rounds of legends samples and many posts on legends, their sizes, samples pictures etc. It's clear that the current output is not a fault due to sloppy or lack of communication.
I'm open to comment and even criticism, for essential future runs/designs. But if anyone has the 7bit's products and only wants to show off what he/she has is superior, or he/she prefers 7bit's products and wants to show off your superior knowledge/taste, please start a new thread. Don't pour all your preferences here repeatedly and don't pollute this thread.
Post by: menuhin on Thu, 21 November 2019, 20:11:39
MoreHere's a comparison between 7bit's Round 6 Space Cadet caps (left) vs Symbiosis R2 (right) for whoever cares.
Ignore the horrible lighting (this is not color accurate), the point is to show how close they are. Biggest difference, like I mentioned, is the size of the legends.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/SZdl27K.jpg)
When we look closer, we can see why the SA Rounds (4/5/6) caps of 7bit were so sought after.
For those who want to improve future Groupbuys of keycap sets and their legends, let's click "more" to see the details 7bit has worked on for the 'Rounds' set.
For those who want Geekhack, a supposedly IC & GB website now, that has been more open to critics pushing boundaries to keep on improving our future keyboard life, instead to become more like r/MK that downvote all constructive comments when that is even just slightly more direct and pointing to the fact, then it is okay to skip the "more"MoreShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/KeaHCGN.jpg)
1. The bigger size legends are to resemble the actual keycap set on the genuine Space Cadet keyboardShow Image(http://xahlee.info/kbd/lisp_kbd/space-cadet_keyboard_3.jpg)
Just look at the D and the F keys of Rounds. See how legends on the alpha keys are more "blown-up", and the Rounds capture this design language (other than the usual font parameters of SP) much better.
For a few times, Signature Plastics made the legends too small to 7bit taste, and then 7bit reject those as seconds and sold them in a reduced price.
And now I see that I could have gotten those instead, but I didn't expect 7bit to disappear for such a long time.
2. Also, the legends of 1, 2, and 3 I just discovered and made me see this round as yet even more different from the Rounds.
Look at the numeral keys 1, 2, and 3 -- they are totally different font designs from the Rounds, which resembles the originals on the Space Cadet keyboard which I also prefer.zslane followed for years the thread-of-hundreds pages of 7bit's Rounds Groupbuy on Deskthority and then he himself worked also as PayPal money collector for the Groupbuy. When he eventually ran his Groupbuys with (Mass)Drop, his SA Dasher & Dancer also used similar legends. Look at the beautiful 1, 2, and 3 on the numeric row:Show Image(https://massdrop-s3.imgix.net/product-images/dasher-and-dancer-sa-custom-keycap-set/MD-32558_20161215005127_084f84aff98893f7.jpg)
The above was just a render. And in reality:MoreShow Image(http://www.griffy.no/Pics/keyboard/Dasher/2.jpg)
The default Signature Plastic fonts can be seen here on this SA 1976 set, with their SP 1, 2, and 3, and their "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2":Show Image(https://www.keychatter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/keychatter_2015-06-16_23-01-16.jpg)
During those time in 2012-2014, I don't know how much time and effort 7bit spent on this endeavor of Rounds - when no one has done that before.
I lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.
Our OP has already done a lot, as shown, in his previous posts.
I am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.
To the contrary, I would prefer the current Symbiosis R2 legends rather than the 7-bit round 4/5/6 legends. I mean, I know 7-bit legends for alphas are more closer to the original Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keyboard that developed by MIT, but those "blown-up"/enlarged legends are a little bit out of coordination in nowadays standards. I can totally understand that someone want an exact replica of a "Cherry MX" compatible version Symbiosis/Space-Cadet keycap set, but to me, personally I like the legends on "Cadet Alphas" to be not that enlarged/stretched out.
What are the "nowadays standards", and who is to judge a design is "out of coordination"? Can I say the Planck keyboard is "out of coordination"?
I just pointed out the differences between this run and the rounds, however, it is fair to say OP didn't promise to have a replica of 7bit's Rounds or the design of original Space Cadet keyboard.
I also pointed out SP were reluctant to go through the trouble of swapping their default legends and default legend-size with custom designs, and that down-to-the-details replication effort makes the Rounds rare.
After all, it's a matter of taste for the legend size.
It is also a matter of taste for the legend fonts, if one likes SP's "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2", and their quite different 3, 2, and 1.MoreShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/KeaHCGN.jpg)
Fair enough. As I said, we have enough discussion about 7bit's products during IC/GB. I don't want to orally wrestle with anyone who prefers 7bit's products. But, it feels annoying if someone pours his preference talks on 7bit's products in this Symbiosis Group Buy thread again and again.
I didn't want to replicate 7bit's creation from the very beginning of Symbiosis R2 IC. I didn't want to replace 7bit to provide his products. This Symbiosis R2 GB had a clear idea/goal to reuse all the existing SP publicly accessible toolings of number row, NorDE legends, etc. considering the cost of making new legends, and to maintain max compatibility among legends of all kits/keys. It's just a trade-off like many things in computer industry. And at the end outcome products of this GB archived this goal.
We have gone through details when someone said "only 7bit cares about doing tribute sets correctly" previously during IC. 7bit's creation had many issues and inconsistencies too, e.g. you noticed some of these issues/inconsistencies in your previous posts. We could talk all day about 7bit this and Symbiosis that. But in the end of the day, any design inspired by a vintage keyboard/keyset is just a simulation of the original, have different design goals/limitations on their own. Like I said previously as response to the "only 7bit doing correctly" guy, it's not true that only one way to make a keyset. There is no correct or wrong, they are just different ideas and preferences.
You seemed to know a lot of stuff on SP's legends/procedures & what happened in Symbiosis GB. But many things you said are wrong. For example,QuoteI lived in a county with really bad road surface.
"They already built this and that roads for you, shut up and enjoy it!"
But the roads can be built even better, like in other counties.
Making keysets via SP is definitely different from building roads. In a keyset design/GB, many things are copyrighted to only a few designers while roads are usually public, as you implied in your words - they're shared in counties. Your analogy is only true when anyone could freely use 7bit's design and toolings - which is not true unfortunately. I have no idea why you use this analogy.QuoteI am not sure I can say "the sloppy side" is Signature Plastic, but they might just have too many orders going.
One thing for sure in the future GBs is that a few more e-mail exchanges with the manufacturers to ensure the details (e.g. those I am pointing out here) will be worth it.
We won't get 7bit's creation. We don't plan to produce that. Symbiosis R2 produced space-cadet inspired legends, big enough to fit the publicly accessible SP number row, NorDE legends. The legends are not as big as what's in 7bit's products, but they don't have to be. It's not a sloppy at all.
Again, I have no idea why you said I did't have enough email exchanges with SP. It looks stupid when you pretended you knew a lot but actually you knew so little.
It is great the OP has stopped being dormant in this thread.
I don't expect you to make a replica of 7bit's creation or the Space Cadet design, and I didn't say anything like only 7bit can make the legends right, and I did also point out his inconsistency in legends.
You have been professional in your communication in IC and in GB, and you might misunderstand that the word "sloppy" was to imply you, no it shouldn't. At the most, I could only say those who QC this Run is careless.
Because I expect the products to be like OP's own renders, including the font style and font size.
(https://i.imgur.com/igmHWQ3.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6hUdsAk.jpg)
Of course no analogy is perfect (it was more trying to relate to how some users tried to defend Kailh's keycap cracking erroneous switch stem dimension, more about their attitude - they totally non-critical attitude will not help quality of projects progress the way they should).
And I am not as knowledgeable as those who design and ran GBs like OP, in terms of how tedious the corresponding process is between instructing the manufacturer and sample checking. I do understand that SP might hold the design files (for legends) of 7bit of his Rounds keycaps, but not allowing other makers to use them; however, I also have already assumed someone who dares to take the daunting task of running a GB of Space Cadet design keycap be able to create all the necessary legend files, even for every keycap if needed, in order to create what the renders have promised.
This is what I put totally trust into, and felt disappointed.
The GB have to be thankful that OP did put in much effort, otherwise, they will be getting the Signature Plastic "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2" already.
My communication here aims at trying to raise awareness to details MK consumers should pay attention to in order to keep up the production quality in the future.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 22 November 2019, 01:39:20
It is great the OP has stopped being dormant in this thread.
Since now it's shipping phase, there is very little I could do.
I respect your freedom of speech, but many of your opions and words were pretty off. I don't think it would make much sense to do oral wrestle with you. I have my life to live. I don't have to debate my GB with you all day. But you repeated posts had hijacked this thread so I think it's time to clear the thread a bit to make sure those customers who have related questions/comments could be heard.
Does this make sense to you?
Because I expect the products to be like OP's own renders, including the font style and font size.
...
My communication here aims at trying to raise awareness to details MK consumers should pay attention to in order to keep up the production quality in the future.
As we all know, renders are for illustration purposes. They don't match 100% to the product. Some vendor usually puts statements on the sale webpage, like
Code: [Select]
IMAGE DISCLAIMER
Images are of 3D renders and are for illustration purposes only. The final product may differ slightly.Some venders don't do that. But we all know products will not be 100% loyal to renders.
Symbiosis R2 used the font Gotham Rounded in both 2D and 3D renders. The shape of legend 3 in Gotham Rounded is slightly different from SP's real product. It's commonly used in keyset rendering. You could see this happened in many other keyset GBs. It's not a production quality issue. If that become a problem according to your standard, you should raise awareness and post in many other GB pages too.
BTW, there are small differences between 2D and 3D renders too. And the sizes of legends in 3D render are bigger than what's in 2D renders because they were done by different people in different time. Some legends were revised slightly. Some mistake in 3D renders too. You should notice these before buying if you're so picky as now for these details. We could talk all day about these details, but it won't help much now in the shipping phase.
You have been professional in your communication in IC and in GB, and you might misunderstand that the word "sloppy" was to imply you, no it shouldn't. At the most, I could only say those who QC this Run is careless.
I don't know what to say. Because I'm the designer and the one who did the QC, as which happens typically in this customized keyset business. I guess you already know that, so I'm confused what you tried to express.
however, I also have already assumed someone who dares to take the daunting task of running a GB of Space Cadet design keycap be able to create all the necessary legend files, even for every keycap if needed, in order to create what the renders have promised.
This is what I put totally trust into, and felt disappointed.
Symbiosis R2 would reuse SP's publicly accessible legends of number row, NorDE layout, Mod etc. I planned to do so and I created all necessary files for this goal. Not all these details in the GB page, but I didn't intensionally hide these information to cheat people to buy. Not many people ask this during the IC/GB, and I was frankly open to response that. Besides I post pictures for legends samples many times along these months. All these informations are public all along. We did what we planned to do. I don't think it's a quality issue.
I'm sorry Symbiosis R2 didn't fullfill your assumption. Everything is settled at this point. If you want to get rip of what you bought, I suggest a refund from your vendor, or selling in mechmarket. Pretty sure you could get your money back anyway.
Of course no analogy is perfect (it was more trying to relate to how some users tried to defend Kailh's keycap cracking erroneous switch stem dimension, more about their attitude - they totally non-critical attitude will not help quality of projects progress the way they should).
IMO, your analogy was bad. Even worse with Kailh's examples. You should think twice before using them. Kailh planned to make switches that have solid industry standards but the output products failed the standards so that caused the cracking. That's a quality issue. But we are talking legend preference for a keyset here.
I'm open with comments, suggestions and criticism, as I did during IC/GB in the past. But many of your words are wrong, even bizzard to some degree. And I smell the sense of superiority as usual from guys who has/prefers 7bit's productions. For example,
I also have already assumed someone who dares to take the daunting task of running a GB of Space Cadet design keycap be able to create all the necessary legend files, even for every keycap if needed
I did dare to create a space-cadet inspired keyset, and created the necessary files as I planned. It's not daunting at all - any other designer could create keysets inspired by space-cadet, at whatever profile, from whatever manufacturer or in whatever style/legend/size they like. I'm sorry if you don't like Symbiosis R2. You made you point already. Please stop trolling with your preference on 7bit this and 7bit that along this thread.
It doesn't make much sense to start a jihad among you, me and other customers here, fighting for the superiority of 7bit's products or Symbiosis R2. The superiority, it doesn't exist. It's just preference. For pilgrims, there are too many roads lead to the shrine.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 22 November 2019, 03:17:32
Anyone already got their Mykeyboard.eu order?
+1 would like to know that too.
Zfrontier updated that the shipment was about to arrive at their warehouse. Their orders should be shipped soon.
Post by: mimalik on Fri, 22 November 2019, 07:54:57
[attachimg=1]
Post by: menuhin on Fri, 22 November 2019, 17:28:29
......
Because I expect the products to be like OP's own renders, including the font style and font size.
...
My communication here aims at trying to raise awareness to details MK consumers should pay attention to in order to keep up the production quality in the future.
As we all know, renders are for illustration purposes. They don't match 100% to the product. Some vendor usually puts statements on the sale webpage, likeCode: [Select]IMAGE DISCLAIMER
Images are of 3D renders and are for illustration purposes only. The final product may differ slightly.
Some venders don't do that. But we all know products will not be 100% loyal to renders.
Symbiosis R2 used the font Gotham Rounded in both 2D and 3D renders. The shape of legend 3 in Gotham Rounded is slightly different from SP's real product. It's commonly used in keyset rendering. You could see this happened in many other keyset GBs. It's not a production quality issue. If that become a problem according to your standard, you should raise awareness and post in many other GB pages too.
BTW, there are small differences between 2D and 3D renders too. And the sizes of legends in 3D render are bigger than what's in 2D renders because they were done by different people in different time. Some legends were revised slightly. Some mistake in 3D renders too. You should notice these before buying if you're so picky as now for these details. We could talk all day about these details, but it won't help much now in the shipping phase.
......
Now it is clear, what I saw as a quality issue - is now that Group-buy products do not need to resemble the renders because it is for "illustration" purposes, and that is a "as we all know" standard practice.
And OP stayed with SP's publicly accessible legends of number row as a design decision, despite being quite different font-wise from the render Gotham Rounded (which matches better with the original Space Cadet keyboard font design).
I agree that products are not 100% loyal to renders, and this is where lots of people get disappointed nowadays when they get products shipped from Chinese companies that advertise their products only as renders. Quite a few people raised criticisms to new key cap manufacturers' fonts as horrendous and a pain to look at in GB and DT (in r/MK people just all say great and yes): perhaps that era of attention to details is already bygone. I am a bit vocal here as the font design that I expected was not delivered in the real product.
And I have to thank OP again that as I raised the Signature Plastic default font 'issue' of "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2" in a batch of sample, OP did take the effort to make them look nicer so those "l" changed to "1". Next time I should be more careful in clarifying earlier on if I am going for some font design in a GB.
Post by: cijanzen on Fri, 22 November 2019, 19:52:12
......
Because I expect the products to be like OP's own renders, including the font style and font size.
...
My communication here aims at trying to raise awareness to details MK consumers should pay attention to in order to keep up the production quality in the future.
As we all know, renders are for illustration purposes. They don't match 100% to the product. Some vendor usually puts statements on the sale webpage, likeCode: [Select]IMAGE DISCLAIMER
Images are of 3D renders and are for illustration purposes only. The final product may differ slightly.
Some venders don't do that. But we all know products will not be 100% loyal to renders.
Symbiosis R2 used the font Gotham Rounded in both 2D and 3D renders. The shape of legend 3 in Gotham Rounded is slightly different from SP's real product. It's commonly used in keyset rendering. You could see this happened in many other keyset GBs. It's not a production quality issue. If that become a problem according to your standard, you should raise awareness and post in many other GB pages too.
BTW, there are small differences between 2D and 3D renders too. And the sizes of legends in 3D render are bigger than what's in 2D renders because they were done by different people in different time. Some legends were revised slightly. Some mistake in 3D renders too. You should notice these before buying if you're so picky as now for these details. We could talk all day about these details, but it won't help much now in the shipping phase.
......
Now it is clear, what I saw as a quality issue - is now that Group-buy products do not need to resemble the renders because it is for "illustration" purposes, and that is a "as we all know" standard practice.
And OP stayed with SP's publicly accessible legends of number row as a design decision, despite being quite different font-wise from the render Gotham Rounded (which matches better with the original Space Cadet keyboard font design).
I agree that products are not 100% loyal to renders, and this is where lots of people get disappointed nowadays when they get products shipped from Chinese companies that advertise their products only as renders. Quite a few people raised criticisms to new key cap manufacturers' fonts as horrendous and a pain to look at in GB and DT (in r/MK people just all say great and yes): perhaps that era of attention to details is already bygone. I am a bit vocal here as the font design that I expected was not delivered in the real product.
And I have to thank OP again that as I raised the Signature Plastic default font 'issue' of "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2" in a batch of sample, OP did take the effort to make them look nicer so those "l" changed to "1". Next time I should be more careful in clarifying earlier on if I am going for some font design in a GB.
As a general reference, if Gotham Rounded is used in the renders you can assume it will use SPs Gorton Modified. Their typeface isn’t available so designers have to resort to using something similar. It’s unfortunate but if you know that will be the case then there won’t be any disappointment!
Post by: DukeEsquire on Fri, 22 November 2019, 19:57:20
Let's move on and get back to talking about how lovely the set is. :)
I, for one, love this keycap set.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 22 November 2019, 23:15:52
Now it is clear, what I saw as a quality issue - is now that Group-buy products do not need to resemble the renders because it is for "illustration" purposes, and that is a "as we all know" standard practice.
And OP stayed with SP's publicly accessible legends of number row as a design decision, despite being quite different font-wise from the render Gotham Rounded (which matches better with the original Space Cadet keyboard font design).
I agree that products are not 100% loyal to renders, and this is where lots of people get disappointed nowadays when they get products shipped from Chinese companies that advertise their products only as renders. Quite a few people raised criticisms to new key cap manufacturers' fonts as horrendous and a pain to look at in GB and DT (in r/MK people just all say great and yes): perhaps that era of attention to details is already bygone. I am a bit vocal here as the font design that I expected was not delivered in the real product.
And I have to thank OP again that as I raised the Signature Plastic default font 'issue' of "F l", "F l O", "F l l", "F l 2" in a batch of sample, OP did take the effort to make them look nicer so those "l" changed to "1". Next time I should be more careful in clarifying earlier on if I am going for some font design in a GB.
I have explained how and why there were differences between renders & products. And tell you that Gotham Rounded is commonly used for renders. But you still misunderstood it as designers & renderers carry out things with degraded intension like
Group-buy products do not need to resemble the renders because it is for "illustration" purposes.
Again, your analogy is bad and some point are off. I don't know why you like to use analogy so much, but it doesn't help. During IC/GB of Symbiosis R2, I never advertised products only as renders like "products shipped from Chinese companies that advertise their products only as renders", instead I told people we were going to use SP standard number row legends and bigger function legends. I decided to use bigger function letters for the function area, even before the GB started.
Reference (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=94288.msg2643643#msg2643643).
SP didn't read my specifications before making first round color samples so that they used small function letters at these samples. I noticed that once Kono sent me the picture of these samples and told SP that before I posted that update. And I specified that in that sample update (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97492.msg2731156#msg2731156). It didn't happen that Symbiosis R2 changed to the bigger function letters because you pointed that out as you implied. And thanks for the advice
Next time I should be more careful in clarifying earlier on if I am going for some font design in a GB.
I don't want to continue this talking with you, man. It doesn't make much sense. You have made your points. Thanks for your concerns and comments.
Post by: menuhin on Sat, 23 November 2019, 08:40:31
...
Instead I told people we were going to use SP standard number row legends and bigger function legends. I decided to use bigger function letters for the function area, even before the GB started.
Reference (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=94288.msg2643643#msg2643643).
SP didn't read my specifications before making first round color samples so that they used small function letters at these samples. I noticed that once Kono sent me the picture of these samples and told SP that before I posted that update. And I specified that in that sample update (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97492.msg2731156#msg2731156). It didn't happen that Symbiosis R2 changed to the bigger function letters because you pointed that out as you implied. And thanks for the advice
...
I didn't know enlarging fonts will make 'F l' turns into 'F 1' - it is more on the SP technical side, I guess.
So Mr. hhkbps will be happy only when I say all kudos are to you and I am satisfied, right?
I know GB has risks - especially if there is no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to any pre-specified degree. For cases, renders basically resemble the product to a large degree as cases are mostly CNC or 3D printed production, while slicing the design for CNC and 3D printing may create some differences and the major differences can be the colors of final products; for PCB and plates, renders and are based on the same CAD files; for key caps, we have only 3 major things -- the profile, the color theme and the font & novelty designs. And most of the GB of key cap sets deal only primarily with the color theme. This GB is about both color theme and font & novelty designs, and I reasonably paid more attention to the font designs.
I don't know if OP gained anything from this GB at all, I believe if yes not much because he's not running it himself like the vendors.
But "no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to a pre-specified degree" is a real risk of all Group-buys here for people who accept the standard practice of GB here. At the end, it is all related to reputation, and with the detailed follow-ups of samples, OP has given me an impression that he is more the careful kind - while I saw his presumed preference as "error" from renders.
Thanks for the suggestion that I should assume Gotham Rounded be not implied on Signature Plastics keycap.
I know what to expect next time when a production is from SP.
Post by: DukeEsquire on Sat, 23 November 2019, 15:00:44
...
Instead I told people we were going to use SP standard number row legends and bigger function legends. I decided to use bigger function letters for the function area, even before the GB started.
Reference (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=94288.msg2643643#msg2643643).
SP didn't read my specifications before making first round color samples so that they used small function letters at these samples. I noticed that once Kono sent me the picture of these samples and told SP that before I posted that update. And I specified that in that sample update (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97492.msg2731156#msg2731156). It didn't happen that Symbiosis R2 changed to the bigger function letters because you pointed that out as you implied. And thanks for the advice
...
I didn't know enlarging fonts will make 'F l' turns into 'F 1' - it is more on the SP technical side, I guess.
So Mr. hhkbps will be happy only when I say all kudos are to you and I am satisfied, right?
I know GB has risks - especially if there is no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to any pre-specified degree. For cases, renders basically resemble the product to a large degree as cases are mostly CNC or 3D printed production, while slicing the design for CNC and 3D printing may create some differences and the major differences can be the colors of final products; for PCB and plates, renders and are based on the same CAD files; for key caps, we have only 3 major things -- the profile, the color theme and the font & novelty designs. And most of the GB of key cap sets deal only primarily with the color theme. This GB is about both color theme and font & novelty designs, and I reasonably paid more attention to the font designs.
I don't know if OP gained anything from this GB at all, I believe if yes not much because he's not running it himself like the vendors.
But "no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to a pre-specified degree" is a real risk of all Group-buys here for people who accept the standard practice of GB here. At the end, it is all related to reputation, and with the detailed follow-ups of samples, OP has given me an impression that he is more the careful kind - while I saw his presumed preference as "error" from renders.
Thanks for the suggestion that I should assume Gotham Rounded be not implied on Signature Plastics keycap.
I know what to expect next time when a production is from SP.
Jesus this guy.
Post by: yesiamthatman on Sat, 23 November 2019, 16:41:47
...
Instead I told people we were going to use SP standard number row legends and bigger function legends. I decided to use bigger function letters for the function area, even before the GB started.
Reference (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=94288.msg2643643#msg2643643).
SP didn't read my specifications before making first round color samples so that they used small function letters at these samples. I noticed that once Kono sent me the picture of these samples and told SP that before I posted that update. And I specified that in that sample update (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97492.msg2731156#msg2731156). It didn't happen that Symbiosis R2 changed to the bigger function letters because you pointed that out as you implied. And thanks for the advice
...
I didn't know enlarging fonts will make 'F l' turns into 'F 1' - it is more on the SP technical side, I guess.
So Mr. hhkbps will be happy only when I say all kudos are to you and I am satisfied, right?
I know GB has risks - especially if there is no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to any pre-specified degree. For cases, renders basically resemble the product to a large degree as cases are mostly CNC or 3D printed production, while slicing the design for CNC and 3D printing may create some differences and the major differences can be the colors of final products; for PCB and plates, renders and are based on the same CAD files; for key caps, we have only 3 major things -- the profile, the color theme and the font & novelty designs. And most of the GB of key cap sets deal only primarily with the color theme. This GB is about both color theme and font & novelty designs, and I reasonably paid more attention to the font designs.
I don't know if OP gained anything from this GB at all, I believe if yes not much because he's not running it himself like the vendors.
But "no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to a pre-specified degree" is a real risk of all Group-buys here for people who accept the standard practice of GB here. At the end, it is all related to reputation, and with the detailed follow-ups of samples, OP has given me an impression that he is more the careful kind - while I saw his presumed preference as "error" from renders.
Thanks for the suggestion that I should assume Gotham Rounded be not implied on Signature Plastics keycap.
I know what to expect next time when a production is from SP.
Jesus this guy.
Seriously.
Thanks for all the work on this GB bringing it across the line! I'm super happy with the result and to have an iconic keycap set on one of my favorite boards!
Post by: Fredington on Sat, 23 November 2019, 18:57:59
...
Instead I told people we were going to use SP standard number row legends and bigger function legends. I decided to use bigger function letters for the function area, even before the GB started.
Reference (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=94288.msg2643643#msg2643643).
SP didn't read my specifications before making first round color samples so that they used small function letters at these samples. I noticed that once Kono sent me the picture of these samples and told SP that before I posted that update. And I specified that in that sample update (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97492.msg2731156#msg2731156). It didn't happen that Symbiosis R2 changed to the bigger function letters because you pointed that out as you implied. And thanks for the advice
...
I didn't know enlarging fonts will make 'F l' turns into 'F 1' - it is more on the SP technical side, I guess.
So Mr. hhkbps will be happy only when I say all kudos are to you and I am satisfied, right?
I know GB has risks - especially if there is no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to any pre-specified degree. For cases, renders basically resemble the product to a large degree as cases are mostly CNC or 3D printed production, while slicing the design for CNC and 3D printing may create some differences and the major differences can be the colors of final products; for PCB and plates, renders and are based on the same CAD files; for key caps, we have only 3 major things -- the profile, the color theme and the font & novelty designs. And most of the GB of key cap sets deal only primarily with the color theme. This GB is about both color theme and font & novelty designs, and I reasonably paid more attention to the font designs.
I don't know if OP gained anything from this GB at all, I believe if yes not much because he's not running it himself like the vendors.
But "no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to a pre-specified degree" is a real risk of all Group-buys here for people who accept the standard practice of GB here. At the end, it is all related to reputation, and with the detailed follow-ups of samples, OP has given me an impression that he is more the careful kind - while I saw his presumed preference as "error" from renders.
Thanks for the suggestion that I should assume Gotham Rounded be not implied on Signature Plastics keycap.
I know what to expect next time when a production is from SP.
Why are you still talking?
Post by: yap68 on Sat, 23 November 2019, 19:04:59
...
Instead I told people we were going to use SP standard number row legends and bigger function legends. I decided to use bigger function letters for the function area, even before the GB started.
Reference (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=94288.msg2643643#msg2643643).
SP didn't read my specifications before making first round color samples so that they used small function letters at these samples. I noticed that once Kono sent me the picture of these samples and told SP that before I posted that update. And I specified that in that sample update (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97492.msg2731156#msg2731156). It didn't happen that Symbiosis R2 changed to the bigger function letters because you pointed that out as you implied. And thanks for the advice
...
I didn't know enlarging fonts will make 'F l' turns into 'F 1' - it is more on the SP technical side, I guess.
So Mr. hhkbps will be happy only when I say all kudos are to you and I am satisfied, right?
I know GB has risks - especially if there is no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to any pre-specified degree. For cases, renders basically resemble the product to a large degree as cases are mostly CNC or 3D printed production, while slicing the design for CNC and 3D printing may create some differences and the major differences can be the colors of final products; for PCB and plates, renders and are based on the same CAD files; for key caps, we have only 3 major things -- the profile, the color theme and the font & novelty designs. And most of the GB of key cap sets deal only primarily with the color theme. This GB is about both color theme and font & novelty designs, and I reasonably paid more attention to the font designs.
I don't know if OP gained anything from this GB at all, I believe if yes not much because he's not running it himself like the vendors.
But "no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to a pre-specified degree" is a real risk of all Group-buys here for people who accept the standard practice of GB here. At the end, it is all related to reputation, and with the detailed follow-ups of samples, OP has given me an impression that he is more the careful kind - while I saw his presumed preference as "error" from renders.
Thanks for the suggestion that I should assume Gotham Rounded be not implied on Signature Plastics keycap.
I know what to expect next time when a production is from SP.
Why are you still talking?
+1
Post by: menuhin on Sun, 24 November 2019, 07:25:46
MoreWhy are you still talking?...
Instead I told people we were going to use SP standard number row legends and bigger function legends. I decided to use bigger function letters for the function area, even before the GB started.
Reference (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=94288.msg2643643#msg2643643).
SP didn't read my specifications before making first round color samples so that they used small function letters at these samples. I noticed that once Kono sent me the picture of these samples and told SP that before I posted that update. And I specified that in that sample update (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=97492.msg2731156#msg2731156). It didn't happen that Symbiosis R2 changed to the bigger function letters because you pointed that out as you implied. And thanks for the advice
...
I didn't know enlarging fonts will make 'F l' turns into 'F 1' - it is more on the SP technical side, I guess.
So Mr. hhkbps will be happy only when I say all kudos are to you and I am satisfied, right?
I know GB has risks - especially if there is no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to any pre-specified degree. For cases, renders basically resemble the product to a large degree as cases are mostly CNC or 3D printed production, while slicing the design for CNC and 3D printing may create some differences and the major differences can be the colors of final products; for PCB and plates, renders and are based on the same CAD files; for key caps, we have only 3 major things -- the profile, the color theme and the font & novelty designs. And most of the GB of key cap sets deal only primarily with the color theme. This GB is about both color theme and font & novelty designs, and I reasonably paid more attention to the font designs.
I don't know if OP gained anything from this GB at all, I believe if yes not much because he's not running it himself like the vendors.
But "no guarantee final products will resemble the renders to a pre-specified degree" is a real risk of all Group-buys here for people who accept the standard practice of GB here. At the end, it is all related to reputation, and with the detailed follow-ups of samples, OP has given me an impression that he is more the careful kind - while I saw his presumed preference as "error" from renders.
Thanks for the suggestion that I should assume Gotham Rounded be not implied on Signature Plastics keycap.
I know what to expect next time when a production is from SP.
My answer to your question is, to express my gratitude towards OP.
Post by: FearsomeCubedWarrior on Sun, 24 November 2019, 08:57:57
Post by: yap68 on Sun, 24 November 2019, 20:50:15
Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/qrmCdWN.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/TrNVbdu.jpg)
This is the way to go: Less talking, more pictures!
They do look excellent on this keyboard.
Post by: cijanzen on Sun, 24 November 2019, 22:24:39
Not up to my usual standards for a photo but I’m really happy with how this set turned out! If anyone is interested I’ll be selling my blue spacekeys as I didn’t buy any modifiers. Just came for the legends and choices! Nice job with this set @hhkbp2
Post by: FearsomeCubedWarrior on Mon, 25 November 2019, 01:32:50
Post by: Nigolski on Mon, 25 November 2019, 04:31:33
Are these SA oblivion mods?
yes
Post by: bardomudo on Tue, 26 November 2019, 12:36:23
Congrats on running the GB, hhkbp2, couldn't be more satisfied on how things went down.
(https://i.imgur.com/xaDRcnv.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Ju0vyTX.jpg)
Post by: jimboytacos on Wed, 27 November 2019, 01:01:04
Prices on KONO aren't shown.
Post by: horchata771 on Wed, 27 November 2019, 01:17:44
What was the original pricing for these kits in USD? Trying to find some on r/mm but everyone's charging an arm and two legs, us a kidney. Just want to see the before and after price.I believe zfroniter has a list of the prices. Granted you have to go looking for it on their complete products catalogue page. Also the prices are slightly different. If you look at their "Signature Plastics" page, the links are now gone. However, prices are very much comparable (i.e. within a few USD of the North American buy)
Prices on KONO aren't shown.
Post by: AaronR on Wed, 27 November 2019, 01:34:20
https://matrixzj.github.io/docs/sa-keycaps/Symbiosis-R2/
Post by: yap68 on Wed, 27 November 2019, 02:01:27
Mine's finally here. Couldn't be happier. Zero complaints.
Congrats on running the GB, hhkbp2, couldn't be more satisfied on how things went down.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/xaDRcnv.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Ju0vyTX.jpg)
These are very nice photos! What keyboard is this? Looks really good.
Post by: bardomudo on Wed, 27 November 2019, 03:17:33
Mine's finally here. Couldn't be happier. Zero complaints.
Congrats on running the GB, hhkbp2, couldn't be more satisfied on how things went down.Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/xaDRcnv.jpg)Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/Ju0vyTX.jpg)
These are very nice photos! What keyboard is this? Looks really good.
Thanks, I'm really pleased with it. It's the RAMA KOYU Moon.
Post by: andtar2 on Wed, 27 November 2019, 03:49:44
Pricing for the GB is listed on this site
https://matrixzj.github.io/docs/sa-keycaps/Symbiosis-R2/
Kono had also around 10-30% markup on pre-order kits after the GB ended.
Post by: lanyusea on Wed, 27 November 2019, 05:14:28
a look of R2:
(https://img.zfrontier.com/post/20191127/FkHA3fXgZLrJELWUSLPII483cHT4?imageMogr2/strip&imageslim)
and R1:
(https://img.zfrontier.com/post/20191127/FnVwz4eeIxKae3w_udQdm3MR1NCx?imageMogr2/strip&imageslim)
and the comparison (guess which is R2?):
(https://img.zfrontier.com/post/20191127/FoBYCwmjPam01Ug3CJKEgj0I6BiR?imageMogr2/strip&imageslim)
Post by: hhkbp2 on Thu, 28 November 2019, 12:21:04
Yesterday a friend gave feedback that he found an issue in one key of the Novelties kit: he received a scooped homing Emacs key, which should be a non-scooped key in R3 profile. As marked in the following picture:
(https://i.imgur.com/cydxrL9.jpg)
Then I checked with many other friends (since I had not received my sets) with what they got and it seemed to be an error for overall units. I had communicated with SP and Kono about this. SP would re-make this key in correct shape for a fix and send out the replacements to Kono next week. Later Kono should ship the fixed keys for your order of this kit. So should the other vendors. If you have any question or you don't receive the fixed key later for a long time, please contact your vendor.
Really sorry about this.
For reference: the correct layout of Novelties kit (https://i.imgur.com/LT6Oihi.jpg)
Post by: hhkbp2 on Fri, 29 November 2019, 13:31:17
(https://i.imgur.com/NLL8gUC.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qCuSNyJ.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OhNrmPQ.jpg)
Post by: Ensaum on Sat, 30 November 2019, 15:05:20
Post by: qq on Sat, 30 November 2019, 19:34:15
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sat, 30 November 2019, 19:55:41
Just noticed my blue \ key has a defect. The white plastic is showing through to the blue part. Would it be possible to go about getting a replacement keycap?
Please contact your vendor for that.
Post by: Ensaum on Sat, 30 November 2019, 20:10:08
Just noticed my blue \ key has a defect. The white plastic is showing through to the blue part. Would it be possible to go about getting a replacement keycap?
Please contact your vendor for that.
Gotcha. Just sent Kono an email. Fingers crossed. It wouldn't bother me if it where on the back, but it's visible where it's at in the front.
Post by: Windeh on Mon, 02 December 2019, 01:27:12
[attachimg=1]
Post by: hhkbp2 on Mon, 02 December 2019, 01:38:27
My order from ZFrontier not fulfilled yet... :(
(Attachment Link)
It seemed Zfrontier had not started the shipping for international orders. I knew from a few friends that their orders were not shipped yet
Post by: h9n9n3 on Mon, 02 December 2019, 08:15:14
My order from ZFrontier not fulfilled yet... :(
(Attachment Link)
Me neither. I'm in South korea fyi
Post by: Jkush463 on Wed, 04 December 2019, 16:45:40
Post by: Windeh on Wed, 04 December 2019, 21:09:15
[attachimg=1]
Post by: matrixzj on Wed, 04 December 2019, 21:24:22
Well my GB got ruined. My order was in fulfillment since Nov 6th so i sent an email about whats going on, apparently my order shipped,postal service didnt scan it and now its gone forever. Only thing i got offered was a refund or wait for the next GB. I waited a year and spent 300$ for nothing, I am so disappointed and now i have a blue Kira80 that i cant finish. Sad days.
Really sad to hear about it. And as some discussion in thread, kono will re-run some popular kits soon.
Post by: horchata771 on Thu, 05 December 2019, 13:27:25
Well my GB got ruined. My order was in fulfillment since Nov 6th so i sent an email about whats going on, apparently my order shipped,postal service didnt scan it and now its gone forever. Only thing i got offered was a refund or wait for the next GB. I waited a year and spent 300$ for nothing, I am so disappointed and now i have a blue Kira80 that i cant finish. Sad days.
Not necessarily. If you have a tracking number, check with the delivery service with the tracking number. It may not be a lost cause.
Post by: nickaster1 on Thu, 05 December 2019, 22:24:47
Mine is turning turning out real nice. Thanks for the GB!
Post by: svenge on Fri, 06 December 2019, 00:09:44
EDIT: Says they shipped today so it must be real!
Post by: romeo on Fri, 06 December 2019, 00:15:27
(https://i.imgur.com/7SvnheY.jpg)
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sat, 07 December 2019, 11:11:05
Show Image(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191206/8aaf37dbf0fd3917b65307b493c7b19f.jpg)
Mine is turning turning out real nice. Thanks for the GB!
Look nice with mods from other sets. I'm looking forward to seeing more mixes across different themes!
Post by: asury on Sat, 07 December 2019, 21:07:37
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 08 December 2019, 01:43:46
So sad that I got double c key, and miss the d key from Zfrontier.. How is the fastest way to contact them?Show Image(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191208/c363f099a66bba207e38a4fd475fe6fc.jpg)
I think you could contact them via the support email.
Post by: asury on Sun, 08 December 2019, 23:15:12
So sad that I got double c key, and miss the d key from Zfrontier.. How is the fastest way to contact them?Show Image(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191208/c363f099a66bba207e38a4fd475fe6fc.jpg)
I think you could contact them via the support email.
I just got reply from Alex (support@zfrontier). He said that he will send the replacement for me by the end of the week! ;D
Cheers!
Post by: datarama on Sun, 15 December 2019, 08:00:03
I mailed them about a month ago; they responded that they'd be shipping out "soon". I'm still waiting, and they haven't responded to email since.
Post by: Fabi on Sun, 15 December 2019, 09:48:14
Has anyone who ordered through Mykeyboard.eu actually received their order yet?Haven't got mine either. I also mailed them about two weeks ago but haven't heard from them till now.
I mailed them about a month ago; they responded that they'd be shipping out "soon". I'm still waiting, and they haven't responded to email since.
If I know something new I let you know.
Post by: impaktor on Sun, 15 December 2019, 10:55:03
(Now I can finally get that bumper sticker: "My other CAR is a CADR"!)
Post by: hhkbp2 on Sun, 15 December 2019, 11:32:28
Hi guys,
Yesterday a friend gave feedback that he found an issue in one key of the Novelties kit: he received a scooped homing Emacs key, which should be a non-scooped key in R3 profile. As marked in the following picture:Show Image(https://i.imgur.com/cydxrL9.jpg)
Then I checked with many other friends (since I had not received my sets) with what they got and it seemed to be an error for overall units. I had communicated with SP and Kono about this. SP would re-make this key in correct shape for a fix and send out the replacements to Kono next week. Later Kono should ship the fixed keys for your order of this kit. So should the other vendors. If you have any question or you don't receive the fixed key later for a long time, please contact your vendor.
Really sorry about this.
For reference: the correct layout of Novelties kit (https://i.imgur.com/LT6Oihi.jpg)
For my own order, I got the replacement key for this R3 Emacs novelty today from Zfrontier
(https://i.imgur.com/cHRUmPO.jpg)
A friend told me that Zfrontier held his order(on Zfrontier's international site) until Zfrontier received this replacement keys from SP. And then Zfrontier shipped his order along with the replacement key a few days ago. Now he already received everything.
I have no idea whether Mykeyboard.eu was doing the same thing to delay shipping until they got the replacement keys too. But I suppose you should get both your order and replacement keys sooner or later no matter what. If you have question with your order, please contact your vendor.
Thanks!
Post by: qq on Tue, 17 December 2019, 04:37:24
Post by: datarama on Tue, 17 December 2019, 17:09:27
Just FTR, I'm not at all blaming you, hhkbp2 - I understand this is entirely outside your control. I'm just a bit annoyed with mykeyboard.eu for not bothering to respond to mail after having me wait a full month after my first question to them.
Post by: kmfmppl on Wed, 18 December 2019, 05:26:35
Post by: hhkbp2 on Thu, 19 December 2019, 07:11:09
I don't have the novelty set in my order, so if mykeyboard.eu is holding orders waiting for novelty replacements, it seems they're simply holding *all* orders, esp. if nobody else has gotten anything from them either.
Just FTR, I'm not at all blaming you, hhkbp2 - I understand this is entirely outside your control. I'm just a bit annoyed with mykeyboard.eu for not bothering to respond to mail after having me wait a full month after my first question to them.
Really sorry to hear that. It's not rare for a vendor to hold or delay shipment due to issues, but it's too bad to disappear from responding.
Post by: hhkbp2 on Thu, 19 December 2019, 07:15:10
(https://i.imgur.com/3zwKCB8.png)
Post by: necromanx on Thu, 19 December 2019, 16:44:29
ordered via mykeyboard.eu as well, have not heard anything so far either.
We are not holding out orders. Not all parts arrived in stock. It was split send to us in 5 or 6 boxes and it was held split in customs. Will go out soon :-)
Post by: kmfmppl on Fri, 20 December 2019, 08:48:17
ordered via mykeyboard.eu as well, have not heard anything so far either.
We are not holding out orders. Not all parts arrived in stock. It was split send to us in 5 or 6 boxes and it was held split in customs. Will go out soon :-)
Great news!
Post by: qq on Sat, 21 December 2019, 19:29:24
(https://i.imgur.com/fOmxv7N.jpg)
Post by: Saga on Sat, 21 December 2019, 21:50:27
(https://i.imgur.com/KAmzOt9.jpg)
If anyone has a spare third row up key in yellow I accidentally scratched mine. It's invisible for the most part but I'm anal :(
Post by: phinix on Mon, 20 January 2020, 04:07:54
I'm looking for a bottom row 1.5u/1u mods from this set:
2x 1.5u CTRL
2x 1.5u ALT (or NordeUK kit has one ALT Graph 1.5u)
2x 1u Super or Fn or Hyper or Meta
These are in extension or CADR kit.
If someone have these and willing to sell, please let me know.
Post by: Fabi on Mon, 20 January 2020, 09:22:02
Post by: necromanx on Mon, 20 January 2020, 12:16:38
Sorry to bring it up again, but has anybody got news from mykeyboard.eu? Or even received their orders?
None have been shipped out yet. They should be getting shipped out tomorrow though!
Post by: Fabi on Mon, 20 January 2020, 13:46:00
Great news, thanks :)Sorry to bring it up again, but has anybody got news from mykeyboard.eu? Or even received their orders?
None have been shipped out yet. They should be getting shipped out tomorrow though!
Post by: gbchk on Sat, 08 February 2020, 20:15:39
Post by: Jkush463 on Wed, 25 March 2020, 23:55:52
Post by: phinix on Thu, 28 May 2020, 18:59:57
- 2x 1.5u CTRL
- 2x 1.5u ALT or ALT GRAPH
- 2x 1u Win, or Sys, or Fun, or anything there was for bottom row 1u cap
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: _talos on Mon, 01 June 2020, 23:42:40
Post by: hhkbp2 on Wed, 03 June 2020, 09:16:21
Oh man, I just got the hook for mechanical keyboards and learned about this forum. Am I really too late to get this Symbiosis keyboard? Some of these look amazing! The site is sold out, but has anyone ever had luck contacting the site to see if they have an extra?
Hey man, I'm afraid Symbolics keyboards were only made in the 1980s. This thread is about a keyset GB with similar color theme. Not sure what you're looking for but for this Symbiosis R2 keyset, you cloud take a look at the mechmarket or wait for the future restock in Kono website if that happens.
Post by: horchata771 on Mon, 08 June 2020, 11:15:44
Oh man, I just got the hook for mechanical keyboards and learned about this forum. Am I really too late to get this Symbiosis keyboard? Some of these look amazing! The site is sold out, but has anyone ever had luck contacting the site to see if they have an extra?
Welcome to the community! Kono has been good at getting back to me in the past. They might restock if there's enough interest. Email them. It can't hurt.
Post by: rtyabgzdhf on Mon, 15 June 2020, 06:56:42
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49682790353_f5ba03be6f_h.jpg)
Post by: Nonuke on Sun, 21 February 2021, 14:31:44
Post by: Reece on Tue, 21 December 2021, 11:02:59
I generally regard this as one of the nicest looking keycap sets there is.
Post by: WILL XOXO on Tue, 21 December 2021, 20:20:39
Post by: nasp on Tue, 21 December 2021, 20:33:48
Is there any chance of another run of this incredible keycap set? I missed the group-buy and I would love to get my hands on one of these sets if at all possible.
I generally regard this as one of the nicest looking keycap sets there is.
There's a good chance that this will run again.
If you can't wait for those cadet legends in SA profile, you can check out SA Spectra. Most kits are still available on Kono: https://kono.store/products/sa-spectra
Post by: Ensaum on Thu, 23 December 2021, 10:00:18
Is there any chance of another run of this incredible keycap set? I missed the group-buy and I would love to get my hands on one of these sets if at all possible.
I generally regard this as one of the nicest looking keycap sets there is.
There's a good chance that this will run again.
If you can't wait for those cadet legends in SA profile, you can check out SA Spectra. Most kits are still available on Kono: https://kono.store/products/sa-spectra
Long shot, but would it be possible to try and convince SP to make a 6u spacebar mold if this runs again? I've got this set and another I'd really like to use on my topre boards with some mx sliders.
Post by: Reece on Thu, 23 December 2021, 11:22:17
Is there any chance of another run of this incredible keycap set? I missed the group-buy and I would love to get my hands on one of these sets if at all possible.
I generally regard this as one of the nicest looking keycap sets there is.
There's a good chance that this will run again.
If you can't wait for those cadet legends in SA profile, you can check out SA Spectra. Most kits are still available on Kono: https://kono.store/products/sa-spectra
Thanks, I hope so.
Spectra looks really good, I see you have all of the cadet legends which I love, but I really want the original Cadet / Symbiosis colour scheme. I just love that blue / grey / white combo and I just gotta have it.
Post by: datarama on Thu, 23 December 2021, 13:52:59
Since I doubt anybody would even want my soul, I guess I'd just pay money, though.
Post by: svenge on Sat, 02 September 2023, 13:10:31
[attachimg=1]
Post by: phinix on Sat, 02 September 2023, 17:20:59
Post by: Argan12345 on Mon, 29 January 2024, 11:15:55
Yep, we need R3.THIS
Post by: kuangmk11 on Wed, 31 January 2024, 12:16:32
Post by: bkrownd on Wed, 31 January 2024, 12:37:39
Yep, we need R3.
Better not be in weaksauce "uniform R3" format though.
Post by: kuangmk11 on Wed, 31 January 2024, 14:02:28