The flat profile of the ergodox's cause more strain on the hands because the hands, specifically the pinky, have to stretch to hit the keys they control. They are not ergonomic if they require me to reach further and strain harder than I would on a 60%.Counterpoint: just move your whole hand; OTOH keeping hands stationary means hitting non-home keys at suboptimal angles on a contoured keyboard (i.e., muscles don't work as efficiently).
The thumb cluster on a ergodox is not as usable unless you remove your fingers from the home row.
Others have said the ergodox is better because you have multiple tenting options and can adjust the split to your liking. TBH, I think this is less of an issue than its made out to be. I spend more time fidgeting with the spacing to make sure they are symmetrical than I should. I actually appreciate the fixed split that the kinesis provides.Counterpoint: one size doesn't fit all; a person with non-average shoulder width or significantly asymmetrical body is gonna have a bad time.
I would argue that the spacing between your hands matters much less than other factors. I have wide shoulders which is why I gravitated towards ergodox. Even with wide shoulders I have no problem on something as compressed as an atrius.
Moving my entire hand from the home row is a bit of a counterproductive argument to make.
The kinesis and maltron keyboards solved placement of the keys for situations where I would be tempted to move my entire hand. They did this so well that I don't have to strain at all. The design of these keyboards minimize pinky movement, not exacerbate it like the ergodox does. One can try to posit that this is my personal experience only, but I disagree. Less pinky movement is less.. no matter who's hand it is.
Moving my hands completely away from the home row on an ergonomic keyboard is promoting RSI injuries more than it is preventing them.
I would argue that the spacing between your hands matters much less than other factors. I have wide shoulders which is why I gravitated towards ergodox. Even with wide shoulders I have no problem on something as compressed as an atrius.Atreus has a non-trivial angle between its halves. Besides, _slight_ ulnar deviation isn't as bad as radial deviation.
Moving my entire hand from the home row is a bit of a counterproductive argument to make.Moving your hands around to perform keystrokes at right angles uses more stronger muscles, as opposed to keeping hands completely stationary and performing keystrokes at various angles.
The kinesis and maltron keyboards solved placement of the keys for situations where I would be tempted to move my entire hand. They did this so well that I don't have to strain at all. The design of these keyboards minimize pinky movement, not exacerbate it like the ergodox does. One can try to posit that this is my personal experience only, but I disagree. Less pinky movement is less.. no matter who's hand it is.
Moving my hands completely away from the home row on an ergonomic keyboard is promoting RSI injuries more than it is preventing them.
Pfft. The ErgoDox is flawed for the majority of users. It is not as if people have pointed out these things from the beginning.
I feel like this topic has been discussed once every couple for the past three years. I am surprised that the things still sell so well, despite the flaws that become apparent after medium term usage.
Moving my entire hand from the home row is a bit of a counterproductive argument to make.
The kinesis and maltron keyboards solved placement of the keys for situations where I would be tempted to move my entire hand. They did this so well that I don't have to strain at all. The design of these keyboards minimize pinky movement, not exacerbate it like the ergodox does. One can try to posit that this is my personal experience only, but I disagree. Less pinky movement is less.. no matter who's hand it is.
Moving my hands completely away from the home row on an ergonomic keyboard is promoting RSI injuries more than it is preventing them.
Pfft. The ErgoDox is flawed for the majority of users. It is not as if people have pointed out these things from the beginning.I feel like this topic has been discussed once every couple for the past three years. I am surprised that the things still sell so well, despite the flaws that become apparent after medium term usage.
Majority according to whom? Thousands of Doxes have been sold (10K is a low estimate). Complainers are the minority, some of whom haven't even used the keyboard and others had different expectancies or just want to customize it further. Keeping your thumb relaxed and straight should be better than curled. Temporarily reaching for a key with your thumb should also be better than your pinky. The split design is far better than cuffed-hands-ANSI/ISO. Purely thinking about the design, the ErgoDox should be better than a traditional keyboard by default, that doesn't mean it's perfect for everyone. Your hands really have to be petite for the thumb cluster to be an actual problem. Remember that your thumbs only need to be on the first main thumb key. Learning how to use something new takes patience and effort. Like reaching for the other thumb keys (hint: hover and move your hand a bit).Moving my entire hand from the home row is a bit of a counterproductive argument to make.
The kinesis and maltron keyboards solved placement of the keys for situations where I would be tempted to move my entire hand. They did this so well that I don't have to strain at all. The design of these keyboards minimize pinky movement, not exacerbate it like the ergodox does. One can try to posit that this is my personal experience only, but I disagree. Less pinky movement is less.. no matter who's hand it is.
Moving my hands completely away from the home row on an ergonomic keyboard is promoting RSI injuries more than it is preventing them.
If you use QWERTY then leaving the home row is the most productive thing you'll be doing anyway. :cool:
I have never used a kinesis, but I can imagine the ergodox would be better with some sculpting. That would, however, make it more expensive and limit availability. I don't like how bulky the kinesis looks and takes away the center from other uses and the split isn't independent. I don't use the bottom row pinky keys anyway, instead I have placed all the keys I need to places more reachable. That's the beauty of programmability. Perhaps the Kinesis is better, I cannot deny that. But if you feel strained then you must be doing something wrong. Consciously using as few muscles as possible is precisely what would cause RSI to begin with because you put all the effort of a movement on just a couple of muscles, while at the same time try to resist the natural movement of other fingers. Hovering is the keyword.
What has caught my eyes is this project on DT: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/designing-a-custom-topre-board-t11734.html
Looks like a widely adjustable ergodox, I don't care so much about Topre, but the thing looks interesting.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/yZKLKCe.png)
Thousands of Doxes have been sold (10K is a low estimate).The ErgoDox has reached its success because it was the only one of its kind, despite its imperfections.
Pfft. The ErgoDox is flawed for the majority of users. It is not as if people have pointed out these things from the beginning.I feel like this topic has been discussed once every couple for the past three years. I am surprised that the things still sell so well, despite the flaws that become apparent after medium term usage.
Majority according to whom? Thousands of Doxes have been sold (10K is a low estimate). Complainers are the minority, some of whom haven't even used the keyboard and others had different expectancies or just want to customize it further. Keeping your thumb relaxed and straight should be better than curled. Temporarily reaching for a key with your thumb should also be better than your pinky. The split design is far better than cuffed-hands-ANSI/ISO. Purely thinking about the design, the ErgoDox should be better than a traditional keyboard by default, that doesn't mean it's perfect for everyone. Your hands really have to be petite for the thumb cluster to be an actual problem. Remember that your thumbs only need to be on the first main thumb key. Learning how to use something new takes patience and effort. Like reaching for the other thumb keys (hint: hover and move your hand a bit).Moving my entire hand from the home row is a bit of a counterproductive argument to make.
The kinesis and maltron keyboards solved placement of the keys for situations where I would be tempted to move my entire hand. They did this so well that I don't have to strain at all. The design of these keyboards minimize pinky movement, not exacerbate it like the ergodox does. One can try to posit that this is my personal experience only, but I disagree. Less pinky movement is less.. no matter who's hand it is.
Moving my hands completely away from the home row on an ergonomic keyboard is promoting RSI injuries more than it is preventing them.
If you use QWERTY then leaving the home row is the most productive thing you'll be doing anyway. :cool:
I have never used a kinesis, but I can imagine the ergodox would be better with some sculpting. That would, however, make it more expensive and limit availability. I don't like how bulky the kinesis looks and takes away the center from other uses and the split isn't independent. I don't use the bottom row pinky keys anyway, instead I have placed all the keys I need to places more reachable. That's the beauty of programmability. Perhaps the Kinesis is better, I cannot deny that. But if you feel strained then you must be doing something wrong. Consciously using as few muscles as possible is precisely what would cause RSI to begin with because you put all the effort of a movement on just a couple of muscles, while at the same time try to resist the natural movement of other fingers. Hovering is the keyword.
What has caught my eyes is this project on DT: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/designing-a-custom-topre-board-t11734.html
Looks like a widely adjustable ergodox, I don't care so much about Topre, but the thing looks interesting.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/yZKLKCe.png)
I knew I wasn't crazy (mostly), custom Topre is possible :)
Pfft. The ErgoDox is flawed for the majority of users. It is not as if people have pointed out these things from the beginning.I feel like this topic has been discussed once every couple for the past three years. I am surprised that the things still sell so well, despite the flaws that become apparent after medium term usage.
Majority according to whom? Thousands of Doxes have been sold (10K is a low estimate). Complainers are the minority, some of whom haven't even used the keyboard and others had different expectancies or just want to customize it further. Keeping your thumb relaxed and straight should be better than curled. Temporarily reaching for a key with your thumb should also be better than your pinky. The split design is far better than cuffed-hands-ANSI/ISO. Purely thinking about the design, the ErgoDox should be better than a traditional keyboard by default, that doesn't mean it's perfect for everyone. Your hands really have to be petite for the thumb cluster to be an actual problem. Remember that your thumbs only need to be on the first main thumb key. Learning how to use something new takes patience and effort. Like reaching for the other thumb keys (hint: hover and move your hand a bit).Moving my entire hand from the home row is a bit of a counterproductive argument to make.
The kinesis and maltron keyboards solved placement of the keys for situations where I would be tempted to move my entire hand. They did this so well that I don't have to strain at all. The design of these keyboards minimize pinky movement, not exacerbate it like the ergodox does. One can try to posit that this is my personal experience only, but I disagree. Less pinky movement is less.. no matter who's hand it is.
Moving my hands completely away from the home row on an ergonomic keyboard is promoting RSI injuries more than it is preventing them.
If you use QWERTY then leaving the home row is the most productive thing you'll be doing anyway. :cool:
I have never used a kinesis, but I can imagine the ergodox would be better with some sculpting. That would, however, make it more expensive and limit availability. I don't like how bulky the kinesis looks and takes away the center from other uses and the split isn't independent. I don't use the bottom row pinky keys anyway, instead I have placed all the keys I need to places more reachable. That's the beauty of programmability. Perhaps the Kinesis is better, I cannot deny that. But if you feel strained then you must be doing something wrong. Consciously using as few muscles as possible is precisely what would cause RSI to begin with because you put all the effort of a movement on just a couple of muscles, while at the same time try to resist the natural movement of other fingers. Hovering is the keyword.
What has caught my eyes is this project on DT: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/designing-a-custom-topre-board-t11734.html
Looks like a widely adjustable ergodox, I don't care so much about Topre, but the thing looks interesting.Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/yZKLKCe.png)
I knew I wasn't crazy (mostly), custom Topre is possible :)
Now that is a solution I'd buy.
That image shows what the ergodox is missing. The curved key-wells reduce the surface area of the functional part of the keyboard so that you do not have to strain to type. The ergodox reverses this by increasing the surface area of the key-wells, causing fingers to strain and fully extend for the same keypress.
This being an ergonomics forum I'm less inclined to listen to criticism about "footprint" of the kinesis. Ergodox's still take up a ridiculous amount of desk space when you add in the wrist-rests, tenting and sub-optimal split-width's that seem so popular. They are not "compact" keyboards.
The ErgoDox has reached its success because it was the only one of its kind, despite its imperfections.
And I wonder how many of those that lay unused ...
The thumb cluster is a known problem. I have very normal hands and can only reach the first key comfortably.
The column offsets are very small in comparison to practically all keyboards with similar layouts that came before it in the '80s and '90s -- keyboards that had been designed using real measurements of people's hands, not just chosen arbitrarily.
Now that is a solution I'd buy.
That image shows what the ergodox is missing. The curved key-wells reduce the surface area of the functional part of the keyboard so that you do not have to strain to type. The ergodox reverses this by increasing the surface area of the key-wells, causing fingers to strain and fully extend for the same keypress.
This being an ergonomics forum I'm less inclined to listen to criticism about "footprint" of the kinesis. Ergodox's still take up a ridiculous amount of desk space when you add in the wrist-rests, tenting and sub-optimal split-width's that seem so popular. They are not "compact" keyboards.
I can imagine a contoured keyboard would be better. I think it's an issue about manufacturing. Couple years back making something yourself wasn't as easy and cheap as it is now with 3D printers etc. If you want a contoured keyboard you either buy something like the Kinesis or make one yourself. Neither option is optimal for me. At the same time floating your hands reduces the problem caused by flatness significantly.
I agree that appearance shouldn't matter, but the footprint of the keyboard is a valid argument. The Kinesis isn't nearly as portable due to it's size, the ErgoDox isn't much different from a traditional keyboard when it comes to size, and you can fold it anyway. Tenting the Dox would make it take less desk space as well. I also like having my mouse, or some other object occasionally in between the halves, which is an ergonomic concern.
I can imagine a contoured keyboard would be better. I think it's an issue about manufacturing. Couple years back making something yourself wasn't as easy and cheap as it is now with 3D printers etc. If you want a contoured keyboard you either buy something like the Kinesis or make one yourself. Neither option is optimal for me. At the same time floating your hands reduces the problem caused by flatness significantly.
I agree that appearance shouldn't matter, but the footprint of the keyboard is a valid argument. The Kinesis isn't nearly as portable due to it's size, the ErgoDox isn't much different from a traditional keyboard when it comes to size, and you can fold it anyway. Tenting the Dox would make it take less desk space as well. I also like having my mouse, or some other object occasionally in between the halves, which is an ergonomic concern.
I use a messenger bag. My ergodox doesn't fit in the bag so I have to carry it (in its own case).
The kinesis has somewhat of a "handle" on it if you hold it from the top, and I've had no issues going to work and back with my keyboard on public transport (bus and trains). The kinesis is easier to transport because it has a handle which is an ergonomic concern :thumb:.
You can put a number of different mice (trackpad and trackballs) in the middle of a kinesis. With a little velcro it works nice :cool:
I don't know what you mean by "floating" but I take it to mean something different than not resting your wrists while typing.. I take it to mean like you treat your keyboard like a piano and just float your hands over top of your keyboard striking keys and not resting them on the home row?
During my freshman year of high school I was taught to float my hands over the keyboard, and keep my wrists straight in typing class. We lost points during typing tests if we used the wrist rests while typing. I think that is what LuX is talking about; resting your wrists while typing supposedly causes unnecessary strain. Velcro huh? :confused:
During my freshman year of high school I was taught to float my hands over the keyboard, and keep my wrists straight in typing class. We lost points during typing tests if we used the wrist rests while typing. I think that is what LuX is talking about; resting your wrists while typing supposedly causes unnecessary strain. Velcro huh? :confused:
This is how I type. For me, that does not alleviate the strain that I feel when using an ergodox for the reasons I stated previously.
The only way I can imagine reducing the strain would be to move my hand so my finger can reach easier, which I thought was described as "floating", but I was looking for clarification because that is different that what you said.
I meant specifically velcro-tape http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0013AIAQ2?psc=1 . I did this for a long time with a magic trackpad, and the velcro held it good enough that I never noticed it moving. I could have easily transported it like this too without fear of the trackpad falling off in transit.
If tenting seems to be the solution for ergodox's I'll give it a try - but carrying around my tenting solution, my graffiti wrist rests, and my ergodox halves is starting to look a lot less portable than a simple kinesis advantage.
I use a messenger bag. My ergodox doesn't fit in the bag so I have to carry it (in its own case).
This is how I type. For me, that does not alleviate the strain that I feel when using an ergodox for the reasons I stated previously.
The only way I can imagine reducing the strain would be to move my hand so my finger can reach easier, which I thought was described as "floating", but I was looking for clarification because that is different that what you said.
If tenting seems to be the solution for ergodox's I'll give it a try - but carrying around my tenting solution, my graffiti wrist rests, and my ergodox halves is starting to look a lot less portable than a simple kinesis advantage.
At least Ergodox users don't have to look at all that wasted space. ;)I didn't look at that wasted space back when I had my Kinesis Advantage, but that middle part could have been flat, if nothing else. I have no idea, who thought it was a good idea to make it curved, so that you couldn't really put anything solid there without using duct tape.
At least Ergodox users don't have to look at all that wasted space. ;)I didn't look at that wasted space back when I had my Kinesis Advantage, but that middle part could have been flat, if nothing else. I have no idea, who thought it was a good idea to make it curved, so that you couldn't really put anything solid there without using duct tape.
First, a question: what keycaps are you using on the Ergodox? If you use a sculpted profile like e.g. DCS (not SA or DSA), I think you’ll have a much better experience. It can be an even better experience to mix and match keycaps from different profiles, e.g. putting extra-tall keycaps on the further 1u thumb keys.
Second, how do you have it arranged? I recommend tenting it at least 20° (my preference is more like 45°), as well as turning the two halves inward a bit. How’s the rest of your chair/desk setup? If you take a picture (or better, a video) showing yourself typing, people might be able to offer some advice.
But the Ergodox is certainly not perfect. I started a thread here about improving the thumb section https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62848.0 and made some prototypes, e.g.:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/puH1Ge4.jpg)
* * *
My personal opinion is that the Maltron is the best “curved keywell” design, much better executed than the Kinesis (but also much more expensive to produce), but also that the concept of the curved keywell with differently angled switches is fundamentally flawed. (e.g. I think the project LuX linked, vvp’s thing, the dactyl (https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard), etc. are all substantially misguided.)
My opinion is that you want to have fairly dramatic vertical separation between keys in different rows, but not have the angle of the key axis change. I find pressing the top row keys, and especially keys in the top corners, very awkward on the Kinesis.
Keycaps alone are usually not aggressively sculpted enough to get quite the vertical step that I think is ideal, so I’d advocate having switches in further-away rows mounted higher, but not tilted differently than the home row keys. There can also be a significant advantage in having the middle-finger column lowered and the pinky finger columns raised compared to other columns of keys. This is hard to accomplish with a flat plate+pcb. Finally, carefully positioning and angling the thumb keys can make a big improvement compared to a flat design, though a design is still somewhat workable if you get the layout right (and the Ergodox does not in my opinion).
For me, the ideal would be to have a keyboard case/plate made out of a milled block of wood or metal, with different switches at different heights, hand-wired at the back. I’d then potentially use a uniform keycap shape to facilitate reordering the keycaps to support any arbitrary logical arrangement (or potentially still use sculpted caps, but with the milled plate/case taking the keycap shape into account). The ideal keycaps would be somewhat smaller than the standard ones, (a) so that they could be arranged in slightly differently angled columns without running into each-other at the near side, and (b) so the rows could be spaced a bit closer together. An aggressive column-oriented stagger helps reduce the minimum usable keytop size compared to standard row-staggered keyboards, but someone with very large hands (let’s say hands larger than 90% of men) might prefer the current keycap size though.
When you type, do you anchor your fingers to the homerow, or do you allow them to float and move without restriction as you type? You can "rest" your fingers on the homerow to get a good reference of their position, but when you reach to press for a key, try to keep your hand as relaxed as possible, do all the movements that it takes to reach that key easier, don't be afraid to lift your fingers from the homerow. Using more muscles to move around isn't always a bad thing to do. I personally found that not restricting any natural movement makes me type faster and feels much better, even though that means using more muscles and more movement.
It makes sense as well. If you extend your arm out 90°, then do tiny circular motion with your fingertips, that will strain you arm really quickly. But if you do a much larger circle and perhaps even open and close your hand as you do that, it takes much longer before you feel strained.If tenting seems to be the solution for ergodox's I'll give it a try - but carrying around my tenting solution, my graffiti wrist rests, and my ergodox halves is starting to look a lot less portable than a simple kinesis advantage.
I made my ED tent out of a shoebox. Basically just cut two wedges out from it, about 15cm wide, 8cm tall. I've thought about making a better tent, but this works and I'm lazy. Also, if the box were designed properly, it could double as a carry case, just flip the wedges over and place the keyboard inside with some padding, then close the wedges together to form a box.
I've intentionally left out my wrist rests from the tent, to remove the temptation of wresting my wrists on them while I type. If I need to rest my hands they can rest on my lap or hang to the side.
I reach for a key with an individual finger while my other fingers fight to maintain some physical contact with the home row. By physical contact I mean, letting the finger relax and naturally fall on the home row key until I engage the finger to strike.
It will take me some time to implement your suggestions. Especially with relaxing and just letting my hand move to the key as needed instead of moving my finger the entire distance. The only way I can describe how it feels to try to type like this is for me to try and sign my name left-handed (i'm right handed). Hopefully I won't have to think about it in a week.
And which are those 'more advanced and customised boards'?
I am only aware of the katy kc80.
I can see the thumb cluster issue being a universal thing for those with small to medium hands. Lots of people use mice but only a small portion of those people use thumb-operated trackballs.'
The Kinesis Advantage is a big waste of space IMO. Not much room in between the haves to place an input device and the thing has nearly the same width as a full-size keyboard with a bit of an ergonomic advantage. If you make a keyboard that is as massive as the Kinesis Advantage why not use some of that vacant space for a normal sized F row?
I've tried Ergodox, Truly Ergonomic and Kinesis Advantage and I sold my Ergodox as it was my least favorite. The thumb cluster was too far, the bottom row (beneath ZXCV) was hard to use compared to the kinesis' which is easy because of its curvature and I feel the inner row of the Ergodox is unnecessary (to one with the vertical keys to the right of G and left of H).i wanted to build Ergodox myself but the bottom row access was the main reason I built a custom K80CS instead (and replaced my old Kinesis Advantage with it).
It's an interesting story because apparently the Kinesis was a copy of the Maltron (www.maltron.com.au) and to avoid patents infringement they needed to change thumb key spacing and lose the middle number keys. I've noticed some comments about an awkward reach with the thumb keys because of this requirement.I kind of doubt that pattents are the cause. Notice that Kinesis is a PCB mount board and Maltron is hand wired. That is also the biggest reason for Kinesis being cheaper.