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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 02 July 2011, 19:54:44

Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 02 July 2011, 19:54:44
Don't know why the other thread on this topic was closed, don't care. I linked to it below for reference. I know a few people besides myself are interested in this possibility so I chose to start and keep open another thread. I'll post the responses I get to any additional info on this topic I get and see if we can advance the cause. Any contacts, links, info anyone can contribute is appreciated. That's one of the things that makes Geekhack great.

One option is a USB key, and another is a built-in selectable hardware/firmware option. Both have merit.

Link:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?19094-Want-a-USB-key-to-translate-QWERTY-into-Colemak-Come-this-way...
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: alaricljs on Sat, 02 July 2011, 20:52:49
It's closed because voltrons lips ran away.

I found this (http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/index.html) intriguing bit and am wondering if it's possible to run it on a USB capable AVR to give you dual USB.  V-USB is low-speed only which should be no problem since this is a keyboard we're talking about.  The V-USB end would have to be the output side of the dongle since this software doesn't do host mode.

Now you just need a host-capable AVR - unfortunately the Teensy doesn't come that way.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 02 July 2011, 21:06:32
Wow, thanks! The OD guys make some quality stuff. Didn't know about this, though. Must be fairly recent?

I guess I have a several goals with this:
1-A hardware solution....to implement in projects
2-USB solution....just like a QIDO but maybe cheaper/better. A mobile, non-keyboard specific solution
3-a resource on Geekhack that is of value to others....doesn't need explanation

Unfortunately, I am not skilled in firmware, software, programming, etc. That is the bulk of this project. :( My contributions must apply elsewhere. At this point I am trying to assemble the info, centralize the people, companies, info, materials, etc, to move this forward. My initial motivation is for the hardware solution that can be used with my Kinesis split mod. There may be a link or two in the other thread I'll find and add here.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Soarer on Sat, 02 July 2011, 22:14:56
Easiest would be adapting one of the current ps2 to usb projects to suit, but then that's limited to non-usb keyboards.

Controller swap in a keyboard is also pretty straightforward in most cases, but not plug and play obviously.

USB host is tricky because of lack of hardware (e.g. Teensy type board with '1287 chip).

USB HID is a can of worms. Supporting the basic 6 key + modifiers packet (like a BIOS does) might be doable (in a sensible amount of time), but you'd lose any fancy features the keyboard might have, such as pointing device, media keys, >6kro, hub, etc. I suspect that the QIDO device is limited to BIOS mode, because anything more is a lot of effort.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 02 July 2011, 22:33:49
Thank you Soarer.

Let me use my personal projects as an example:
-Kinesis Contour which has many keyboard features...want to maintain this
-some are PS/2
-some are USB
-I would choose to use a built-in hardware solution

This is just what is wanted for my projects. I believe many more would need a USB plug-in for mobile work situations. A little more difficult perhaps.

Can you please elaborate on any of your points (when you have a little time?) as far as the best path?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: hasu on Sun, 03 July 2011, 02:24:04
As for a DIY USB-USB converter like QIDO,
it is clear that the problem exists mainly on its USB host side.

Software Solution:
Though the article is a little bit old, this guy managed to host a USB keyboard just with AVR 2313.
This software can host only a low speed device, not full speed.
This might be useful as a start point of an DIY USB-USB converter (with Teensy?).
I want to know other similar software solutions if any. Anyone has info?
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~qx5k-iskw/robot/usbhost.html (http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/%7Eqx5k-iskw/robot/usbhost.html)
(It is a Japanese page. Use translation service.);


Hardware solution:
Some Cypress USB chips seem to have host port and peripheral port at same time.
http://www.cypress.com/?id=186
I am very curious about what chip QIDO uses inside the dongle. Anyone knows?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 03 July 2011, 02:50:27
Thank you for posting Hasu :)

The Cypress link is a good resource.

I'm thinking a wiki article may need to be started to organize this as a project. Does anyone else think we should start a wiki?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Soarer on Sun, 03 July 2011, 07:51:02
PS2 boards are easy, with tweaks to a current Teensy-based adapter.

I think the features on the Kinesis mostly only affect which keys are sent (e.g. macros etc), but with a BIOS style USB-to-USB adapter you would lose the ability to plug other devices into the hub.

BIOS style means only handling a single keyboard device, with an 8 byte packet (6 keys + modifiers), it doesn't include media keys etc.

When I said "USB HID is a can of worms", I mostly meant on the host side, parsing the HID descriptors etc. But for any extras (beyond BIOS mode) to be useful, they would need to be replicated on the client side, so that the PC's USB host can see them. I don't know if a simple pass-through would be possible, which only modifies the bytes in (BIOS style) keyboard packets leaving all else unchanged (it would be 'tricky' anyway!).
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 03 July 2011, 23:16:40
USB > PS/2

\My contribution to this project
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 03 July 2011, 23:37:21
Quote from: keyboardlover;372853
USB > PS/2

\My contribution to this project

You can be such a big weenie sometimes. If it wasn't so much work (for me, at least) I would make a GH duck crap on your GH avatar.

I'll take your input, but be advised I'll be expecting some other follow through at some point. I'm sure in your expert grilling travels you'll come across some extremely helpful info to contribute, I know you can. In other words, you still owe something, but your credit is good here.

Glad you didn't burn your weenie, weenie.

 Thread readers: This post and the previous post are a continuation of another thread, and not really relevant to THIS thread. :)
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: theferenc on Mon, 04 July 2011, 00:36:54
I definitely like this idea, except for the "non-keyboard specific part".

I think it wouldn't be too hard to do, at least at a basic level, for keyboards. As soarer pointed out though, that would likely lose some special features a keyboard might have. And as I mentioned in the other thread, Hasu's ps2 converter actually has this functionality already, and is pretty straightforward to modify.

Figuring out the USB<->USB aspect would likely be the most difficult.

And I assume this would have to be driverless, otherwise it sort of defeats itself, yes? I've had some decent luck with intercept drivers before, passing keyboard input to an external device and receiving it back in some transmogrified form, but that definitely requires drivers, so not plug and play.

Another thought: what about getting something like Synergy running an arduino or teensy, but having it do the translation prior to kicking it out over the network interface? You can pass network data over a USB port without drivers, but it can be a bit...wonky. And it would require that you run synergy on the host machine, but that can be done without an install, from a flash drive, for instance.

These are just thoughts, by the way, but I would be interested in pursuing this project. While for my current purposes, Hasu's project worked perfectly (post-modification), some day I may not have PS/2 keyboards, so having a project I can turn to in the future would be nice. So count me in on this one. I can do some of the software side, I would think.

Do we want to pool our resources and snag a QIDO, see if it can be reverse-engineered (outside the US, of course)? I don't have the hardware to dump and/or flash it, but someone here might.

Edit: Oh, and can we have the option for more than 104 key keyboards, please? Specifically, the terminal emulators which send unique codes. It would be nice if we didn't lose that ability. The USB HID spec has codes for those extra keys, after all, so why not just include them as a pass through type deal.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 05 July 2011, 12:03:17
A Geekhack thread on the idea of a mobile audible feedback adapter. This would be a fantastic feature to add.

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?19518-Tactility-in-your-pocket-bringing-audible-feedback-to-usb&p=373755&posted=1#post373755
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: eyesnine on Tue, 05 July 2011, 13:04:26
Wow, this thread and link (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:14618) just opened my eyes.

Why get a programmable keyboard when a DIY PS/2 to USB adapter/keymapper is relatively easy to make? This is great, I may have to order myself a Teensy very soon.

The audible feedback is a good idea, too. Not really my cup of tea, but I'm sure there are lots of people that would find it very useful.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 05 July 2011, 13:13:35
Sooo...you're proposing a stand-alone "non-keyboard specific mobile adapter" that is basically the "programmable keyboard PCB without the keyboard"  Am I right?

-programmable
-re-mapping
-macros
-audible feedback
-embedded layers
-alternate layouts
-small secret storage compartment for incidentals (toothbrush, $100 bill, car keys).......relax, I'm joking....

----HumbleHacker is one option that exists in principle, with some additions. http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6292&highlight=humblehacker (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6292&highlight=humblehacker)
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: eyesnine on Tue, 05 July 2011, 13:34:33
As a mass market product it would be difficult. The software (firmware programming) would be hard to make both comprehensive and accessible. Almost impossible. Whatever limits the software defines, someone will want to do something beyond those limits.

However, for a little device that I could hack together without caring whether anyone else can use my firmware code it's an excellent solution!

I suppose that as long as the code is well documented and open source there will be others that could get some good use out of it, but I don't think it has any commercial potential without a nice graphical firmware programming application.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 05 July 2011, 13:51:52
Got it.

I wasn't thinking specifically as a commercial, mass market product. Just pointing out some similar concepts. There are actually a couple on this forum I believe...again, in principle.

We're in the information collection/cementing the idea phase.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Soarer on Tue, 05 July 2011, 15:19:14
Quote from: theferenc;372889
Edit: Oh, and can we have the option for more than 104 key keyboards, please? Specifically, the terminal emulators which send unique codes. It would be nice if we didn't lose that ability. The USB HID spec has codes for those extra keys, after all, so why not just include them as a pass through type deal.

'Cos Windows, at least, doesn't really handle those codes :-(  I found it was better to send some of the more obscure ps/2 codes instead, because at least they're easily remappable by autohotkey or whatever.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: theferenc on Tue, 05 July 2011, 15:39:02
Really? That's weird. Doesn't Unicomp use those USB HID codes? Or do they cheat and use the PS/2 codes instead? Considering they can't be used with a purple adapter, I assumed the former. Well, it's something to look into.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: sordna on Tue, 05 July 2011, 16:01:24
Quote from: input nirvana;373793
Sooo...you're proposing a stand-alone "non-keyboard specific mobile adapter" that is basically the "programmable keyboard PCB without the keyboard"  Am I right?

-programmable
-re-mapping
-macros
-audible feedback
-embedded layers
-alternate layouts

 
Um, you realize you just described the Kinesis Advantage keyboard controller, right? Maybe they will sell the controller separately if you ask!
Otherwise, just yank the controller out of that contoured keyboard you're selling.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Soarer on Tue, 05 July 2011, 16:04:51
Are any unicomp keyboards dual mode?

The problem is that Windows translates the HID codes back into ps/2 codes (scan code set 1, actually). Details here (http://download.microsoft.com/download/1/6/1/161ba512-40e2-4cc9-843a-923143f3456c/translate.pdf). The problem lies where the function is undefined in the scan code set.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Titmouse on Tue, 05 July 2011, 16:07:43
I'm definitely interested in this. I just ordered a Teensy. But I have a couple deadline coming up later this month, so probably won't be able to play with it much until next month.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: eyesnine on Tue, 05 July 2011, 20:08:04
Quote from: sordna;373913
Um, you realize you just described the Kinesis Advantage keyboard controller, right? Maybe they will sell the controller separately if you ask!
Otherwise, just yank the controller out of that contoured keyboard you're selling.
I would assume that a Teensy is both cheaper and easier to program than the Kinesis Advantage keyboard controller. I doubt Kinesis will supply the firmware source code along with the controller. Though, I also doubt they will supply the controller.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: sordna on Tue, 05 July 2011, 20:38:34
Well, the Kinesis controller is programmable from the keyboard itself, no software needed. It has 2 logical layers, each fully remappable, and supports macros, configurable audible click, and has QWERTY and DVORAK switching functionality built right in. For Colemak, you can easily remap one of the 2 logical layers to it. Very important to note, it has on-board non-volatile memory, so your settings are preserved when you unplug the keyboard.
But yes, cost/availability of the controller by itself is unknown, one would need to ask Kinesis about it.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 06 July 2011, 14:44:34
I have some answers from Kinesis, but that should be updated, info is a year old. Yes, the Kinesis does much of this and is functionally awesome. One idea on this thread was for a USB smaller-sized dongle for easy portability, as opposed to the Kinesis main pcb. Teensy seems small enough. Also for project boards size is a issue. The Kinesis has a TON of room inside and the pcb is darn big. See my Kinesis Contoured Split Project link in my signature for pics.

Thanks to everyone that has posted and contributed so far, I'm very committed to this and will start a page in the "mod" section tomorrow and maybe move this thread as well? I'll send emails to some Geekhackers that have already done some type of groundwork on parts similar to this.

Your thoughts?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 07 July 2011, 12:13:37
Perhaps naive on my part, but would it be possible/feasible to have new/augmented firmware for the existing Kinesis main pcb? I'm mostly thinking of an additional embedded layer, (HumbleHacker has 4 layers) and maybe some other items anyone would throw into this project.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 10 July 2011, 21:05:30
Welcome to Geekhack!

The hardware qwerty-colemak (dongle or not dongle) will need to do much more than just what the name says. There are a few items people have mentioned in this thread that are outstanding. A wish list needs to be drawn up so a project goal can to be established. This may get split into 2 projects, making one very simple and quick turnaround.

I'm daydreaming of a project board that can take signals from any keyboard, and add programmability, multiple layers for layouts, keypads, etc. on the way to the computer.

I think this will take several weeks to get some people thinking seriously, posting their thoughts, and start to come up with a plan.

Electrocution will NOT be on the wish list :)
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: eyesnine on Sun, 10 July 2011, 21:45:01
It has pretty much already been done here with the Teensy PS/2 to USB converter: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:14618 It's just a matter of hacking the firmware to make it do Colemak conversion as well.

Adding a little speaker shouldn't be tough. Adding USB support would be difficult, and might not be possible with Teensy - I'm not 100% sure of that platform's limitations. Though, I suppose that an off the shelf USB to PS/2 adapter could be used before the PS/2 to USB conversion for most keyboards.

The hard part is the software. Making a piece of software that can generate firmware with the desired behavior (Colemak, Dvorak conversion, custom layouts, layers, etc.) is where 99% of the work is required. If the software isn't created then the majority of potential users will be reliant on the unpaid work of open source programmers, and sifting through an endless variety of firmwares of varying quality and compatibility.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 10 July 2011, 22:24:37
Quote from: eyesnine;377829
It has pretty much already been done here with the Teensy PS/2 to USB converter: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:14618 It's just a matter of hacking the firmware to make it do Colemak conversion as well.

Adding a little speaker shouldn't be tough. Adding USB support would be difficult, and might not be possible with Teensy - I'm not 100% sure of that platform's limitations. Though, I suppose that an off the shelf USB to PS/2 adapter could be used before the PS/2 to USB conversion for most keyboards.

The hard part is the software. Making a piece of software that can generate firmware with the desired behavior (Colemak, Dvorak conversion, custom layouts, layers, etc.) is where 99% of the work is required. If the software isn't created then the majority of potential users will be reliant on the unpaid work of open source programmers, and sifting through an endless variety of firmwares of varying quality and compatibility.

So a USB-PS/2 conversion could happen with the Teensy? That would be ok I suppose.

Back to software. Is it difficulty or time? Or both? Have you seen Humble Hacker?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: eyesnine on Sun, 10 July 2011, 22:49:42
Yeah, realistically I think you're looking at a software paradigm something along the lines of the HumbleHacker. In other words, if you can hack open source code then your keyboard is programmable. If not, then you'll be stuck with other people's firmware. If the firmware versions are well categorized, searchable and documented properly then this can work. If not it can turn into a useless pile of code very quickly.

A custom firmware generating app is too time consuming to make. The difficulty is not negligible, it's not like you're dealing with anything too complex, it just takes an in depth, comprehensive knowledge of the Teensy platform. The problems start cropping up in the design stage, since you'd start with a simple key-remapper, then you'd go ahead and add layers. Then someone wants macros, so that's a whole other big chunk of time. Then someone else wants a button that repeats the last character pressed, another person wants a "Turbo" mode, where a certain key automatically repeats on depress, then someone else wants to have control over the repeat rates of each individual keypress, then someone else wants it to do spell checking, and another person wants it to automatically expand abbreviations, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum. Trimming the wishlist is tough.

On the other hand with well documented accessible firmware code (and no keyboard programming app) you can always say to a request: great idea! The code's right there, dive in and let us know how it works out for you.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: eyesnine on Sun, 10 July 2011, 23:00:15
The key, then, is to establish a community around a simple device.

I like the idea of the female PS/2 wired to a Teensy. Both parts are cheap and easily obtainable, and the device is simple enough that someone with no experience with electronics would be able to twist some wires together and make it work.

After that, you need some forums so the noobs can ask questions and make requests, and the programmers can exchange ideas and establish standards, and a publicly accessible database (ftp is easiest) of different firmware versions that are all compatible with the same simple hardware.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 10 July 2011, 23:19:08
Hmmm, thank you for your info. I'm still upbeat, but will need to look much closer look and consult with you guys about Hasu/HumbleHacker/and a couple other Geekhack sources regarding the code, etc. to see if we can meet our wants and needs.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: bluecar5556 on Mon, 11 July 2011, 07:37:29
Bought a Teensy++ 2.0 (http://www.pjrc.com/teensy/index.html) a week ago and glad I did, an audrino communicates via serial which is slower and thus, does not support USB natively.  Non-USB native=no HID support (no drivers is a requirement.)  If anyone wants me to test their code, I would be more than happy to, shoot me a PM.
(http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8577/img20110711073331.jpg)
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: eyesnine on Mon, 11 July 2011, 17:20:20
I'm going to go ahead and order a Teensy.

I think I should be able to get a simple Colemak-QWERTY converter running without too much time spent by using pre existing code.

What's the opinion on Teensy vs Teensy++ for this project? I'd rather order the one that everyone's going to be using.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: alaricljs on Mon, 11 July 2011, 18:43:01
If you're using pre-existing code then it should already be written in such a way that teensy vs teensy++ doesn't matter.  Make all the  pin assignments #define's and you're all set there.  The 2 devices are otherwise so similar it doesn't matter.  teensy++ has more pins/flash/ram.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Mon, 11 July 2011, 19:03:19
Neat!

Can you link any Geekhack info into this thread? I'd like to go ahead and make a wiki article, but I didn't want to do it until one or two people moved forward. Then this thread can be put into the discussion tab. My goal is to make a reference wiki (so detailed even I could make one of these) lol. It could be linked with the Colemak website, since there would be a fair amount of interest for them.

WHAT SHOULD TITLE BE FOR WIKI ARTICLE IN THE MODIFICATIONS SUBFORUM?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: bluecar5556 on Tue, 12 July 2011, 07:34:02
What do you think about "Teensy USB to USB layout converter dongle?" I said it, DONGLE.  If anyone purchases a teensy (http://pjrc.com/teensy/index.html), the breadboard is $7 from PRJC.com (http://pjrc.com/) if you don't already have one.  The ++ version is only a few bucks more, more memory and input/output pins so why not?  The Sony PS3 was rooted (full access) using a teensy, taking into consideration a typical USB drive will not work so my assumption is the sky is the limit?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 12 July 2011, 11:28:41
THIS is an excellent conversation piece....

[ATTACH=CONFIG]20520[/ATTACH]
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: theferenc on Tue, 12 July 2011, 11:41:19
I would discuss that.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 12 July 2011, 11:49:47
Discuss.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: hasu on Tue, 12 July 2011, 12:23:29
If you want a USB-USB converter you must host USB keyboard and I doubt a Teensy can do that.
Limited "software" USB host may be possible on Teensy. If possible it must be the harder way.
I think you need to find a chip/board with "hardware" USB host function.

To get a PS/2-USB converter, Teensy is enough, of course.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: eyesnine on Tue, 12 July 2011, 12:46:10
Hey hasu, I took a quick look at the work you did with your PS/2 to USB converter. It looks really nice! Your designs should be the foundation of this project. I have ordered a Teensy++, and it's in the mail. When it gets here I'm going to try and get your firmware onto it.

I'd like to make some better documentation for your project. A step by step quick start guide would be very useful. And, an official release zip file with all the necessary files would be useful. Also, I think that the code could be better documented, so, after the quick start guide I was thinking I might start picking through your code and providing enhanced documentation, to make it more accessible, as well as a good way to familiarize myself with what you've already done.

What do you think about making your project more public and bringing more people on board? There's probably a ton of people that could get really good use from this device on this forum, as well as the Colemak, Dvorak forums. I think it needs to be renamed so that people know what it's capable of. I was thinking of something like "Skeleton Key - Makes your keyboard programmable" or something to that effect. I like the "Skeleton Key" name for this project.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 12 July 2011, 13:02:48
IMav can move this thread into a wiki page setup. I would like to do that in the next couple days. An appropriate title is important so it can be found on by noobs and enthusiasts alike from internet searches and from other forums.  (good example of a horrible title: my Kinesis Contour mod is titled "Trackpoint Questions").

Keep in mind, I believe this might be a foundation for 2 or 3 directions. Fleshing this out now is the most important task at hand.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: theferenc on Tue, 12 July 2011, 13:44:04
And don't forget, it's really easy to extend Hasu's work to other layouts. I replaced QWERTY with UNIX. I didn't bother with the other layouts, removing them from my code base, simply because I had no intention of using them. I also have a 122 key UNIX layout hex file that I use.

It's actually really easy. I'd be happy to clean up and document my changes, if people are interested. It would be a while before I could do, though.

One thing I did want to do is make it so I can swap between 122 key and 101 key, but the layout differences stumped me. So for now, I just reflash if I want to swap between them. Not ideal, but it works well enough for me, since I rarely swap.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: hasu on Tue, 12 July 2011, 14:28:51
eyesnine,
Thanks for your suggestions!
Better documentation and code review by others are what I have wanted.
Collaboration with others will be good experience for me and my project, though I'm not sure a way of collaboration now.


theferenc,
It is a pleasure to hear someone using my code happily!
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: eyesnine on Tue, 12 July 2011, 22:31:39
I just tested my KBC Poker with a USB to PS/2 passive adapter, and it works perfectly. So, Hasu's PS/2 to USB converter/remapper/programmer should work well with a Poker, provided an adapter is used.

Hasu, it's great to hear that you're interested and checking this thread. As more people get involved we'll be able to figure out better ways to collaborate.

I think that this project could be very successful. It is something that is of great use to people that write code for a living, so it should attract some really solid contributors if we can get the ball rolling and spread the word a little more.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 12 July 2011, 23:52:05
At someones suggestion, I posted this on the Colemak forum (a little cheesy):

http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1171
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Titmouse on Wed, 13 July 2011, 07:23:17
Does anyone know where I can get a USB type A receptacle breakout board? Using that, we don't have to use the passive USB to PS/2 adapter. The result will still be a PS/2 to USB adapter, but should look much cleaner.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 13 July 2011, 08:01:00
The ones I have found are huge and expensive - $12.  Maybe just hack something small together in Kicad and use seeedstudio fusion for a cheap solution.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Titmouse on Wed, 13 July 2011, 08:46:19
Are you talking about this one (http://www.winfordeng.com/products/brkua1f.php)? That's about the only one I found. I know not much about PCB layouts. Maybe I'll see if there are USB breakout layout floating on the web. Thanks.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 13 July 2011, 09:44:06
Yeah, that one.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 13 July 2011, 14:06:52
There were a few... perhaps  Humble Hacker (http://www.humblehacker.com)  on GH here (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6292&highlight=humble).

Also the Symmetric Stagger (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:19613) board and the not yet completed Pedantic hacker (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:16103&highlight=humble) board

And that's not counting a number of unpublished boards I've stumbled across in my time here and my own unpublished board as well.  :)
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 13 July 2011, 14:28:48
Sure about that?  There's a NEW C64 that is a complete computer...
Quote from: McLaren;269871
Nirvana at last - at least for some - the Commodore 64 is reborn as an Atom-powered NetTop! With a Cherry keyboard, no less.

Announcement (http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_C64.aspx)

Show Image
(http://www.commodoreusa.net/j/C64KeysSmallBorder2b.png)


Better shot of the keyboard:
Show Image
(http://images.techtree.com/ttimages/story/113883_22commodore600b.jpg)


From the main page: "The new Commodore 64 features genuine Cherry brand key switches, which provide a feel much better than the original, with a lovely IBM classic mechanism and click sound. The keys are the exact same shape as the original and are color matched. No expense has been spared. This is the ultimate hackers keyboard on which to wield your key-fu."

More (http://www.techtree.com/India/News/Commodore_64_Reborn_as_Atom_Equipped_Nettop/551-113883-585.html) on the Commodore 64
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 13 July 2011, 14:31:10
Sure about that?  There's a NEW C64 that is a complete computer...
Quote from: McLaren;269871
Nirvana at last - at least for some - the Commodore 64 is reborn as an Atom-powered NetTop! With a Cherry keyboard, no less.

Announcement (http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_C64.aspx)

Better shot of the keyboard:
Show Image
(http://images.techtree.com/ttimages/story/113883_22commodore600b.jpg)


From the main page: "The new Commodore 64 features genuine Cherry brand key switches, which provide a feel much better than the original, with a lovely IBM classic mechanism and click sound. The keys are the exact same shape as the original and are color matched. No expense has been spared. This is the ultimate hackers keyboard on which to wield your key-fu."

More (http://www.techtree.com/India/News/Commodore_64_Reborn_as_Atom_Equipped_Nettop/551-113883-585.html) on the Commodore 64



Aha!  Here we go:  GH thread (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?15308-Mapping-Commodore-64-keys-into-the-21st-century)  but he either hasn't done it yet or at least hasn't shared it.  There is one in the thread linked to that was done with an Arduino....
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 14 July 2011, 12:22:50
Quote from: dante;379661
thats not it - that looks professional - this was something that looked like it was made in the garage.  I remember the cherry switches looking like they were being held down by some sort of clay like substance.

Here it is...

I sent an email a week ago asking to collaborate on this GH project.

http://www.key64.com/
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 14 July 2011, 12:24:43
Quote from: dante;380258
If we were sitting next to each other I would be the sandwich/coffee *****!

You better be unbelievably smoking hot.   lol  :)
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 14 July 2011, 12:47:10
Here is a very good related thread on deskthority. I posted/linked this thread there as well. Take a look.

http://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=40
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Minskleip on Thu, 14 July 2011, 15:21:06
Quote from: eyesnine;379247
I just tested my KBC Poker with a USB to PS/2 passive adapter, and it works perfectly. So, Hasu's PS/2 to USB converter/remapper/programmer should work well with a Poker, provided an adapter is used.

Hasu, it's great to hear that you're interested and checking this thread. As more people get involved we'll be able to figure out better ways to collaborate.

I think that this project could be very successful. It is something that is of great use to people that write code for a living, so it should attract some really solid contributors if we can get the ball rolling and spread the word a little more.


That's very interesting; I'd like to have the arrows on ESDF rather than WASD. Do you have any thoughts on how this can be accomplished with Hasu's PS/2 to USB with regard to the Fn keys? I suppose they don't have scan codes.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: eyesnine on Thu, 14 July 2011, 15:29:39
Quote from: dante;380318
So what is the shopping list so far?

Teensy++ 2.0,  $24, http://www.pjrc.com/


What other things needed?  You mentioned Arduino but there are a lot of variations on this.  Which one is needed?  If you give me a part number I will volunteer to shop around for the best price.
From Hasu's plans, the only things needed are a Teensy (or Teensy++), a female PS/2 port with a lead (that can be had from any cheap PS/2 to USB converter), and a USB cable. That's all.

Quote from: Minskleip;380440
That's very interesting; I'd like to have the arrows on ESDF rather than WASD. Do you have any thoughts on how this can be accomplished with Hasu's PS/2 to USB with regard to the Fn keys? I suppose they don't have scan codes.
I would swap the Alt and left Win keys with the DIP switches. Then, I would use the left Win key to access a separate layer with Hasu's PS/2 to USB instead of the Poker's Fn key. I could design a whole layer that way (I might assign layer modifier key (left Win Key) + Caps Lock as left Win key, so I don't lose that key, it is useful sometimes). The right Fn key might not be so useful if it doesn't have a scan code, and I don't think that it does.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Minskleip on Thu, 14 July 2011, 15:37:23
Hm yes.. Hasu added many layers to his HHKB, so skipping the "physical" virtual layer at all is a good idea.

Having a Teensy dongle with this would be so awesome - one can use it with Ripster's Multiultra Model M and get a (more) proper HHKB layout on a buckling spring keyboard too! Extra bonus if you cut away all the crud on the sides (F keys and numpad).
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Minskleip on Thu, 14 July 2011, 17:20:19
I went and got me a new Teensy to do PS/2 to USB :) Now just find a smart way to mount it in an enclosure. I'm a bit reluctant to modify the Poker before I've even received it.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: theferenc on Thu, 14 July 2011, 20:26:25
I used legos to mount mine.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: eyesnine on Thu, 14 July 2011, 20:31:51
Quote from: Minskleip;380505
I went and got me a new Teensy to do PS/2 to USB :) Now just find a smart way to mount it in an enclosure. I'm a bit reluctant to modify the Poker before I've even received it.
See if you can think of something that hasn't been done and posted in this thread: http://psx-scene.com/forums/f178/post-your-dev-board-housing-case-pics-pimp-your-case-65633/
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 14 July 2011, 20:36:34
It seems the original thread that was closed, is also now gone? If there was any info or links in that thread of value here, please re-post.

Old link:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?19094-Want-a-USB-key-to-translate-QWERTY-into-Colemak-Come-this-way...
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: bdpq on Fri, 15 July 2011, 01:37:49
Hi all,

My wife posts on the colemak forum and here is her idea about the USB dongle:

"I can see it become a separate class of peripheral of its own.   One can perhaps store macros, sms/email templates / login credentials (so the dongle can even function like a hardware key - credentials encrypted in the hardware, not in the OS)."
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 15 July 2011, 01:44:07
Exactly!
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Minskleip on Fri, 15 July 2011, 04:24:27
Quote from: theferenc;380616
I used legos to mount mine.

How do you make sure that the Teensy doesn't move around in there?

Quote from: eyesnine;380623
See if you can think of something that hasn't been done and posted in this thread: http://psx-scene.com/forums/f178/post-your-dev-board-housing-case-pics-pimp-your-case-65633/

Oh I'm so unimaginative, I thought of soldering it to an experiment card with header pins, and mounting the experiment card in a box with screws.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 15 July 2011, 07:28:01
Hot melt glue is amazingly strong and yet so temporary... :)  

And with that last from bdpq - looks like you might want to look into interfacing a microSD... :)
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 15 July 2011, 08:00:18
Micro SD....nice. Had not considered that. Would that create more complications to read/write, or is that just another chip with standard firmware?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 15 July 2011, 08:03:16
PJRC (http://www.pjrc.com/store/sd_adaptor.html) the teensy guys have it on a piggyback board... In their projects section there is at least 1 item doing fat R/W to the card.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: eyesnine on Fri, 15 July 2011, 08:25:08
Quote from: alaricljs;380883
PJRC (http://www.pjrc.com/store/sd_adaptor.html) the teensy guys have it on a piggyback board... In their projects section there is at least 1 item doing fat R/W to the card.
Yeah, I've thought about this before. Should it be part of the standard package for this project? It does open a lot of doors.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 15 July 2011, 12:30:34
Quote from: eyesnine;380888
Yeah, I've thought about this before. Should it be part of the standard package for this project? It does open a lot of doors.

Without me creating a discussion mess, these are my questions:

1-Does adding the Micro SD prevent other parts of the project? (is it purely an add, or does it create any barriers at the same time?)
2-Is it something that is almost "tacked on" so it could be an option, or would it be a fundamental part of the unit?
3-The info the Micro SD would provide...can you outline several of those items, and how you see it working? (scenarios?)
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: eyesnine on Fri, 15 July 2011, 21:26:05
1) It decreases the number of free I/O, other than that I don't see that it takes anything away. It would make case design more challenging.

2) Well, it wouldn't really do anything towards the original goal of providing a hardware Colemak converter...

3) However, for storing word lists, long macros, key logging or remembering passwords, it will probably be necessary.

My vote is to forget about it for now and come back to it for version 2.0. I'll be happy with a simple Colemak converter.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Fri, 15 July 2011, 21:37:16
1- no prob
2- no prob
3- no prob

Coolio!
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: theferenc on Fri, 15 July 2011, 23:22:42
My thought actually was always to use MicroSD to store the macros and the conversion tables. Here's why:

If they are stored as a simple text file, that is saved to a specific place, the firmware can just read it and load up the table on the fly. But it would also SERIOUSLY ease the difficulty of a layout modification program that could be deployed alongside. It may even be possible to use the MS provided keyboard layout tool to read and write that file, assuming we can get an output file that is parsable.

So the user could create whatever layout they want, and all they have to do to try it out is to unplug and replug the teensy after defining and saving it.

Macros, replacements, etc. could all be done the same way, though I see replacements as being a bit of a bad idea, in that it would, by necessity, increase complexity considerably. Having to backspace in a system-independent way to erase it, replacing it with new text, only when it shows up on it's own, or in a specific way...it could get pretty complicated pretty quickly. For instance, is "lol" in Lola something that should be expanded, or not? We would have to handle it only when it sees 'space l o l space', and even then, it may be more complicated than I'm seeing.

I think we should definitely NOT include a key logger. As it is, being allowed to hook this thing up to even semi-secure systems is unlikely. If someone finds out there is a keylogger in it, as well, even if it only captures from our keyboard, it will NEVER be approved.

That last is also why the code DEFINITELY needs to be available. If we can't provide it to the IT security group, some of us won't be able to use it.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Soarer on Sat, 16 July 2011, 06:53:30
Meanwhile, back on planet Earth... :-p

How's the proof of concept USB to USB hardware coming along?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: theferenc on Sat, 16 July 2011, 10:20:11
Soarer, you don't think storing the remaps as a text file would work? As soon as I get the SD reader from PJRC, I was planning on working on that exact thing.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Minskleip on Wed, 20 July 2011, 13:33:15
Quote from: http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/LUFA.php
Lightweight USB Framework for AVRs. The library is currently in a stable release, suitable for download and incorporation into user projects for both host and device modes.

What's needed for USB -> USB?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Soarer on Wed, 20 July 2011, 17:44:18
Quote from: theferenc;381442
Soarer, you don't think storing the remaps as a text file would work? As soon as I get the SD reader from PJRC, I was planning on working on that exact thing.

Sorry, I missed your reply until now! I was only making a (friendly!) dig at the ever growing requirements list, since the first step in this is clearly to get some USB to USB hardware/firmware running. If that can't be done sufficiently well, the rest is moot.

Teensys have a small amount of eeprom that would be ideal for storing stuff in, and it wouldn't take much to provide a simple interface over USB to read/write it. I'd favour using a script on the host to compile from text file to some format that's ready for the code on the Teensy to deal with, because that can easily be cross-platform and it's far easier to debug stuff on the host than on the Teensy!
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 20 July 2011, 18:32:28
U-S-B! U-S-B! We want U-S-B!
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Minskleip on Thu, 21 July 2011, 08:39:36
Quote from: Minskleip;384158
What's needed for USB -> USB?

 
Some more from LUFA http://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/LUFA.php:

LUFA (Lightweight USB Framework for AVRs, formerly known as MyUSB) is my first foray into the world of USB. It is an open-source complete USB stack for the USB-enabled Atmel AT90USBxxxx and ATMEGAxxUx AVR microcontroller series, released under the permissive MIT License (see documentation or project source for full license details). The complete line of Atmel USB AVRs and USB AVR boards are supported by the library, as are any custom user boards, via custom board hardware drivers supplied by the user.

•Keyboard Device
•Keyboard/Mouse Device
•Keyboard Host
•Keyboard Host/Device Dual Mode
•Mass Storage Device
•Mass Storage/Keyboard Device
•Mass Storage Host

Seems like this should work right? Just need hardware and circuit diagram.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 21 July 2011, 09:04:21
Right, LUFA requires a HOST capable AVR to be a USB host for your keyboard, and then you can use V-USB to be the device.  Or you can use 2 AVRs, 1 as host and use SPI to communicate to the 2nd that operates as the device.

The problem here comes from not being able to use something off the shelf like a teensy.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: hasu on Thu, 21 July 2011, 10:03:32
I found this USB host arduino shield whose arduino library is available at github.
$20 Mini is reasonable but it costs $15 for shipping to Japan :(
It looks like this shield and Teensy is promising though I don't look into much yet.

http://www.circuitsathome.com/products-page/arduino-shields/

Edit:
I went to Akihabara and bought this sparkfun version today.
Both shield uses same MAX3421E chip.
http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9947
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Minskleip on Fri, 22 July 2011, 08:24:19
Quote from: alaricljs;384705
Right, LUFA requires a HOST capable AVR to be a USB host for your keyboard, and then you can use V-USB to be the device.  Or you can use 2 AVRs, 1 as host and use SPI to communicate to the 2nd that operates as the device.

The problem here comes from not being able to use something off the shelf like a teensy.

I see, thanks for clearing that up.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: The Solutor on Wed, 27 July 2011, 20:43:19
I started a thread about something meant to to obtain similar goals, as my Idea was not intended as a Colemak only thing, I haven't link here.

But sordna pointed me to this thread

Project idea, the universal keyboard controller (Soarer's opinion needed) (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?20375-Project-idea-the-universal-keyboard-controller-(sordna-s-opinion-needed))


So do you think is wort to keep the two thread separate or not ?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 27 July 2011, 21:00:30
I love the other thread. I should, it sounds just like this one :)

My suggestion is to move those posts over here, and I already spoke to iMav about converting this thread into a wiki. I just want to be sure we have a very good, descriptive name. Keep in mind, this thread/wiki will be around and active for a long time and we want it to be easily found by people on the web.

So what do you say? 1)Combine the threads, 2)come up with a great title, and 3)have iMav earn his keep by moving the combined thread into a wiki page?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: sordna on Wed, 27 July 2011, 21:11:12
Yes, these threads should be combined. And Solutor, it looks like threads cannot be renamed after all, I see you changed the OP but the actual thread and URL still has my name on it :-)
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 28 July 2011, 05:54:04
Quote from: input nirvana;388482
I love the other thread. I should, it sounds just like this one :)

My suggestion is to move those posts over here, and I already spoke to iMav about converting this thread into a wiki. I just want to be sure we have a very good, descriptive name. Keep in mind, this thread/wiki will be around and active for a long time and we want it to be easily found by people on the web.

So what do you say? 1)Combine the threads, 2)come up with a great title, and 3)have iMav earn his keep by moving the combined thread into a wiki page?


Yes sure looks a good way, Surely a good title is needed as the Colemak thing will keep most of the interested people away
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 28 July 2011, 05:59:08
Quote from: sordna;388487
And Solutor, it looks like threads cannot be renamed after all


Looks just as the Murphy's law applied to GH.

Don't know if Imav played with the admin settings in the latest days...

Titles can definitely be changed, just look at xda (http://forum.xda-developers.com/forumdisplay.php?f=758), for example.

There the people who update a ROM or a program keeps changing the title and this happens since the born of the universe...
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: The Solutor on Thu, 28 July 2011, 10:42:28
BTW back to topic.

Quote
2)come up with a great title


What about

Project idea: the universal, programmable, keyboard controller/layout converter
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Thu, 28 July 2011, 12:57:39
Quote from: The Solutor;388741
BTW back to topic.

What about

Project idea: the universal, programmable, keyboard controller/layout converter


Open source, programmable, controller/layout converter?


Please add words or actual possible titles to this list.

KEY WORDS LIST: (things that the unit will be able to do, or what it is)
programmable
open source
controller (that's what it is)
converter
layout
universal
USB
hardware/firmware


I don't want to make the title too big of a deal, but I don't want to gloss over it either. A couple days with some good input should produce a great working project title that is internet searchable.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: hasu on Thu, 28 July 2011, 17:54:43
Anyone follows the discussion in "Open Source" Generic keyboard controller thread?
It must be related to this subject, I have not read completely though.

How about recycle of this thread?
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7260&highlight=open+source+firmware
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: bluecar5556 on Fri, 29 July 2011, 21:26:40
Edit: There seems to only be one discussion forum for an entire WIKI article with multiple topics.  Does that mean that people will be potentially communicating on more than one subject in the discussion forum from a USB to USB layout converter to a universal DIY keyboard controller?  If that is the case, my personal opinion is it would be better to have one discussion forum per topic, thereby concentrating everyone's focus on the task at hand rather than possibly derailing with another topic.  Is this possible with a wiki article?  Regardless, there is a trade off on both scenario's from keeping everything in one location to everyone saying on topic so the question is, what is more important I suppose?
 
Perhaps Paul Stoffregen from PJRC.com (http://pjrc.com/) (The manu. of teensy) would be interested in helping with development?  

"Paul's email is paul@pjrc.com. Technical questions should go to Paul. All sorts of technical questions are ok, but please try to be specific and include enough detail about your setup. If you have a PJRC product, be sure to specify exactly which one and what revision it is. If you've built your own hardware, Paul will have an easier time and be able to help much more if you include technical information such as a schematic and source code. Paul also edits most of the HTML and CGI that runs the website, so if some part of the site isn't working or has an error, it's best to email Paul about it."
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Tue, 02 August 2011, 21:44:17
Been doing some snooping on the site for some custom made keyboards, controllers, code, etc. I took another look at Dox's project with the teensy and the code he used and modified, the Symetric Stagger keyboard and a couple others. Is there anything that is existing or can be modified from these projects that will suit our needs, or is the foundation too different?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Freyth on Fri, 05 August 2011, 01:24:37
How about 3 inputs: USB, PS/2, AT all-in-one with the output a USB?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: bluecar5556 on Fri, 05 August 2011, 23:57:37
Isn't PS/2 and AT exactly the same, just a smaller connector?  I unknowingly bought my kinesis off eBay with a AT connector then right after unboxing it for the first time, I could have pulled out a pistol and started shooting it senseless as if it were threatening my life.  That thing is HUGE!  Wow, talk about being caught off guard!  Luckily, they terminate up to a PS/2 connector just fine.  

How about we keep it simple until some magic happens?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 06 August 2011, 00:04:57
I don't see the point in an AT connector, it will only make the unit needlessly bigger. But since there is no electrical difference, it's something that could be popped on no sweat. It doesn't need to be engineered into the design.

Gotta name this project and start the wiki page.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: sordna on Wed, 17 August 2011, 09:18:12
Here is a potential volunteer, recruit him! :-)

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?20375-Project-idea-the-universal-keyboard-controller-(sordna-s-opinion-needed)&p=400035&viewfull=1#post400035
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Wed, 17 August 2011, 15:08:21
Yes, it's time to bring in another motivated and talented body. Need to make the wiki page...a good title from anybody, or at least debate one?
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: theferenc on Fri, 09 September 2011, 01:18:49
Just to let people know, I may be able to enlist some ECE and CS students to actually implement this idea. I'll keep folks posted.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sun, 11 September 2011, 10:57:20
A-HA!

Life just keeps getting better. I can send a controller board to you as a reference point (sometimes it's helpful, sometimes it just creates limitations to free thinking).

I'm going to do some zen this weekend and come up with a title so this can be made into a wiki, and then pm the people that have shown an interest or done similar work to revive and work out a goal list.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: bjeanes on Mon, 12 September 2011, 13:47:23
Has anybody considered using one of the Vinculum II based devices?

There's a few complete programmable boards as well as chips that can be used in combination with other hardware. I bought the Vinco about 7 months ago to make a Colemak-QWERTY converter dongle but got sidetracked with moving overseas and never completed it.

It's great to see a lot of other people motivated and interested to see the same product come to life.

Is there any reason something like the Vinco has been ruled out as an option? It's a bit steeper in price, but it has USB Host and Device capabilities, including HID support built into the on-board OS.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Soarer on Sat, 17 September 2011, 08:27:23
Quote from: bjeanes;415004
Has anybody considered using one of the Vinculum II based devices?

Didn't know about them!

They look ideal, and the price is far more reasonable than I was expecting for something with those features.
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: bjeanes on Tue, 27 September 2011, 14:41:14
Quote from: Soarer;417620
Didn't know about them!

They look ideal, and the price is far more reasonable than I was expecting for something with those features.

 
Yeah they are pretty great. Anyone here in Chicago and want to work together on getting this thing working? I have one of these boards but too little experience even with things like an Arduino to really know how to get going... I have mostly just been reading through their C API docs.

- Bo
Title: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: lenakira on Wed, 28 December 2011, 17:56:24
-Removed-
Title: Re: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: mas128 on Thu, 04 April 2013, 18:50:17
Has anyone found a working solution to this yet?
(A QIDO for Colemak input: USB key to change keyboard layout to Colemak, and then back to Qwerty).

Thanks a lot for any help!
Title: Re: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Soarer on Thu, 04 April 2013, 19:43:08
It did get some way further...
USB Dvorak Dongle? (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33057.0) - hasu's post, links to code (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=33057.msg653549#msg653549)
Is remapping a USB keyboard using Teensy possible? (http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/is-remapping-a-usb-keyboard-using-teensy-possible-t2841.html) - darkness'  post, links to code (http://deskthority.net/post86004.html#p86004)
Title: Re: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: Input Nirvana on Sat, 06 April 2013, 01:22:44
Seems like there has been some progress on several fronts, but it's been somewhat off the radar.
Title: Re: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: mivanov on Sun, 29 November 2015, 18:54:32
Hey guys, I know this thread is old, but seeing there is no progress and no widespread known solution...

What about using a Banana PI? It has a 2 USB ports(host mode) and one OTG port(guest mode). Shouldn't that make what we want doable?

The other idea is the following - can't we bridge two arduinos? One will be guest, the other one host.

As for the other criticism - shouldn't all the special functions still work?(if they don't depend on a driver.. which by the way I think is true for most keyboards, since they are using the keyboard firmware instead - ex. those layout changing buttons or the shortcuts/media/etc.). Plus what if they don't work, we can code even more awesome stuff  since we can remap as we like and introduce macros too just like in the Soarer's converter :)
Title: Re: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: hasu on Sun, 29 November 2015, 19:34:25
Got notification and pleased with skimming this old thread and my posts from my early days on this forum :D

My result on this topic is TMK USB-USB keyboard converter and it works for this purpose, I believe.
It is comprised of ATMega32u4 microcontroller and MAX3421 USB host chip, and compatible to combination of Arduino Leonardo and Circuit@Home USB Host shield. It is not most cost-effective solution but still reasonable and availability of components is not bad. In paritcular Arduino library for the Host shield was great gift for my project.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69169.0
Title: Re: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: mivanov on Mon, 30 November 2015, 09:28:06
Yep, I've also read about that. Atmega 32u4 are cheap, like 3-5 $, but the usb host shield costs like 30-40 $ which is unreal. I could get a whole arm soc with like 1 gb ram for that. Might as well get a Banana Pi, that way I could get bluetooth as well, if I need mobility(having the option of using both bluetooth and a cable is a fine thing since you don't always have the space or position to use cables). Another added benefit to using it will be the possibility for a web based api plus a web panel. Adding a small screen might be a fine idea as well.

But I guess I'd rather go cheap for now, so if someone finds cheap MAX3421 chips, please share.

Title: Re: QWERTY to Colemak via hardware. USB key or built in hardware/firmware?
Post by: hasu on Mon, 30 November 2015, 22:57:18
Yeah, you can invest your time and money on Banana Pi or whatever you like. I like to see you start your project and share it with the communtiy.

As for the chip find it on Aliexpress.