104 US ANSI Double shot replacements for Filco Order

[WhiteRice]

Last updated 11/07/10

ORDERS CLOSED
All orders shipped! .

Shipped:

chet0
phate408
Rally Man
Moogle Stiltzskin
Fwiffo
Megaweapon
didjamatic
Zen
platon
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celery
mrbill
muchadoaboutnothing
Tr0j4nM4x1mus
wirefish
7bit
squarebox
Lanx
rantenki
hoggy
JBert
Kraicheck
pipedream
thcyash
wap32
zefrer
Antihope
bitmap
Daniel Beaver
GoodKnight
gregh
Hak Foo
ironman31
isp
itlnstln
jnsjr
judicata
kaishi
laden3
MissileMike
nanu
phoenix
Proct
ripster
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woebtz
AvroArrow
Henry
Laggy-gaga
sixty
TheSoulHunter
ethanb
qbert
negidaku
Danno
keyboardlover
WhiteRice[/COLOR][/b]

Project Outline(Current Phase in Bold):

Design
Finalize Design
Finalize Pricing w/ freight
Collect 75% of pre-order payments
Place Order w/ Signature Plastics
Manufacturing
Shipment to me
Distribution to membership

Log:

11/12/10
   Keycaps shipped to members
11/9/10
   Keycaps srecieved from Signature
11/2/10
   Keycaps shipped from Signature
10/18/10
   Paid Signature Plastics Order underway
Orders closed
Contacting Signature about payment and production
10/13/10
   International Booster Packs Available(Details below)
Requested Finalized Quote from Signature
Reqested Quote for international J-Enter /w 2 blanks key set
10/12/10
   Price and Options Updated
10/11/10
   Freight shipping updated
Key Options Priced
Complete Set Price Estimated
10/10/10
   Edited buyer list
We will probably be ordering a set of 50, compromise between price and waiting forever to gather buyers.
10/09/10
   The majority of interest is in the Dolch legend color scheme so I have decided that is what it will be.
I added a poll for custom/alternate key options
Initial
   
This thread will be the place where I will keep all the details together. Please voice your interest and ideas. I will try and keep a running list of interested parties and ideas.
Nothing is set in stone. So feel to voice your opinion, and keep an open mind.

Set Details:

Custom Geek Hack Key Set:
1 x 104 US ANSI double shot keyset
1 x Orange Geek hack Key w/ white text
1 x 1.75” Alternate Caps lock key w/ "Control"
1 x 1.75” Alternate Stepped Caps lock Key
1 x Alternate Orange WASD cluster (4 key set)
2 x 1.25” Diamond keys
1 x Surprise Item




Color Scheme:

Dolch gray w/ dark gray modifier keys



Pricing:

50 sets          $40.39 / set

Extras Priced below:

- 50 sets of WASD in orange (without the arrows printed on the front) 4 Key set - $3.20 / set
- 50 Pairs of Diamond keys - 1.25 size - $1.60 / each
- 50 1.75 size key labeled 'Control' - $0.85 / each
- 50 1.75 Stepped Capslock keys - $0.85 / each
- 50 'Geek Hack' Keycaps - $0.80 / each
- Surprise Item

Estimated Freight to me:

$25(/50 = $0.50)

--------------------------------------------------------
Total: $48.19
Subject to Change

International Boost Pack
   J-shaped Enter $8.49
2 Blank character keys $0.42
--------------------------------------------------------
Total: $8.91
Subject to Change


Estimated Shipping to you:

~$5 Domestic US
~$12 International
~$50,000 Moon

FINAL PRICE: $49.00 + Shipping(See details below)
International Booster Packs Available - $9.00 / each
Includes:
   J-Enter Key
Two blank character caps[/COLOR]
Shipping:
USPS Priority Domestic/International(Includes tracking number)
   Domestic: $5.00
International
   Canada/Mexico: $12.00
All Others: $14.00
For each additional set add $1.00 USD.
For international orders of more than one set, it with be shipped parcel post to keep costs down.


Other information:

Signature Plastic keys have a slightly different profile than your standard Filco;



Pictured below is an example of the stock Signature font which is the cheapest option.

[itlnstln]

I'm in for at least one set.

[Fwiffo]

You can list me as interested in at least one, probably two sets, particularly if we get up into the cheaper price breaks.

Will the whole run have to be the same color? If so, black would probably be acceptable to the widest number of people. If we have a choice of colors, does a whole set have to be the same color, or could a few keys be different? (e.g. red Esc, blue WASD, etc.)

Is there some reference materials we could look at for colors/fonts?

With regard to key profile... Does that mean the top of the keys would be lower, or the bottom would be higher or something in between?

[WhiteRice]

Will the whole run have to be the same color? If so, black would probably be acceptable to the widest number of people. If we have a choice of colors, does a whole set have to be the same color, or could a few keys be different? (e.g. red Esc, blue WASD, etc.)

Is there some reference materials we could look at for colors/fonts?

With regard to key profile... Does that mean the top of the keys would be lower, or the bottom would be higher or something in between?

The whole set does not have to be the same color, but any choice we make on colors will go across the entire order. So they will have to be consensual.

My feeling on red Esc and blue WASD is that you can already order them from elitekeyboards. So something different would be nice.

I am in contact with signature about a font/color catalog.

I believe the bottoms are slightly higher. That's the case with my GHSS.

[magictoaster]

I'm in for one (as long as the consensual color is not pink with bright green WASD and brown ESC).

[muchadoaboutnothing]

Interested in one, maybe two.

If you're going to do this you may consider doing a couple international keys and maybe some color options. The cost of additional keys is less per key and you might be able to get a lot more people interested in sets.

I'm sure people would like a few colored keys (colored ESC, for instance).

[wap32]

I agree that a few international options (reverse 'L' enter, 105th key, etc) as well as different shift/alt/ctrl sizes for compatibility might get more people interested if that doesn't increase the price too much.

I might be interested in a set if it would fit an MX11800 with an ISO layout.

Also, WSAD keys in orange would be pretty sweet.

[Megaweapon]

In for one if we can get non-OS specific super key legends.

[Daniel Beaver]

I am interested, and would almost certainly buy a set or two if they were available.

Colors
Black keys would probably be the only option with near-unanimous consensus. I personally would love to have gaudy yellow keys, but that probably isn't for everyone.

Legend Font
Boring Helvetica, please. I hate these space-age fonts that keyboards have nowadays.

Custom key options
An OS-independent meta key. Actually, just a key which said "meta" would be peachy. In addition, a replacement CapsLock key which says Control. I think that is a fairly common replacement.

I demand a red esc key! I would also like white, red or orange WASD keys. I'm not a fan of blue WASD.

None of these would be a deal-breaker, honestly.


One question: would these have scooped F and J keys, or nubbed? My anti-otaku Filco has scooped keys, and I don't really care for them.

[RickyJ]

I've been contemplating either a Filco or a Das for a while now, but these would severely swing me towards a Filco despite the added cost.  Standard US layout preferred, and I'd actually like the shorter key profile that Signature Plastics has.  Don't put me down for a set though, I'm still just dreaming.

[GoodKnight]

I'm interested. Probably black for color but I'm flexible on everything else.

[MissileMike]

Interested, prefer black of course.

[ironman31]

I'm interested if we end up getting them at one of the lower prices. (Of course, if they look as unique as those others signature did, I might pay a little more)

[celery]

I'm down for a set.

My main criteria is no space-agey fonts. Personally, I'd like a bit of mix in colors. I like the two tone Dolch replica in the original thread. I'm also fond of bright accents--the more orange the better :eyebrows:

Even if it turns out to be plain black, though, I'd still want a set. As long as the font is normal looking.

[WhiteRice]

So I heard back from Signature about fonts and colors.

The font posted in the thread from sixty is their default font and is the cheapest option(pictured below). Available in upper or lower case. I will ask about the font sizing. Let me know if you have any preference.



They have over 300 colors; so once we get some basic idea of what colors we want I will ask for samples.

[sixty]

Good job on getting this going, its about time.
Note me down for two sets (if we get > 50), or one set if we only get 25.

As for colors I would love a black/dark gray theme. If you pay close attention you will notice that the dark modifier keys on the Korean Dolch-Replica example are not actually black, but a very dark gray.

We should have this for the main keys and real black for the modifiers. That would be awesome.

Anyway, in the end I don't care much for the colors, I'm just happy we are getting something done.

[thcyash]

i'm also interested in 1 set

[Daniel Beaver]

We should have this for the main keys and real black for the modifiers. That would be awesome.

I approve, that's a very cool look.

[nanu]

I'm interested in a set, but much more if we could gather more than 25 or 50 people. I'm quite patient for matters like these. On that note, would you also post this project on say, overclock.net ?

Anyhow, following are my selfish preferences:

+1 for two-toned dark grey and darker grey (ok, black may be fine, here); preferably dark grey for all keys that normally generate a character glyph when typing up a post on geekhack in English, and darker grey for remaining keys.

Consider me very picky for being against alternating the shade based on F key location (I never understood why you'd color the quads like so). Just keep all of F1 to F12 the same shade.

Also, if a

GEEK
HACK

key is decided, please request a manual correction for the kerning so that both sides line up visually.

[celery]

We should have this for the main keys and real black for the modifiers. That would be awesome.

I agree with this too.

[WhiteRice]

I like the two tone grey keys as well.

How do you guys feel about the legend size and positioning? Do you like them big and centered or a more contemporary style like rip mentioned?

[WhiteRice]

I'm interested in a set, but much more if we could gather more than 25 or 50 people. I'm quite patient for matters like these. On that note, would you also post this project on say, overclock.net ?

Anyhow, following are my selfish preferences:

+1 for two-toned dark grey and darker grey (ok, black may be fine, here); preferably dark grey for all keys that normally generate a character glyph when typing up a post on geekhack in English, and darker grey for remaining keys.

Consider me very picky for being against alternating the shade based on F key location (I never understood why you'd color the quads like so). Just keep all of F1 to F12 the same shade.

Also, if a

GEEK
HACK

key is decided, please request a manual correction for the kerning so that both sides line up visually.

I have no problem with other communities joining in to order, but I would like if someone helped manage the posts on the other sites.

Geekhack members are the only ones who have a say in production.

[laden3]

I am interested in the green set (the cheapest option) or the light grey+ grey set, either one will do. Personally, I like the huge centered font since we can hardly get those nowadays.

[WhiteRice]

I am interested in the green set (the cheapest option) or the light grey+ grey set, either one will do. Personally, I like the huge centered font since we can hardly get those nowadays.

I think they're the same set, just different lighting. Perhaps we can get some clarification.

[sixty]

all pics are from the same set. its just the lightning and differences in camera options, etc.

i actually would like the grey to be a bit more dark, like i said almost black for all keys, real balck for the mods (and f keys, etc) would be awesome.

[Megaweapon]

If all the pics in the first thread are from the same set then I'm going to go ahead and assume that this one has the most accurate colors:



In some of the pics (including the one with the keys on the card) the colors are just way too dark and IMO it weakens the effect -- makes it look like they only had replacements for the green keys and the black ones are OEM.

This is why I would not want a darker color for the gray keys.

I like the classic typewriter-style font size and position.

[ironman31]

I don't mind the big ass centered font. Its really unique and it would be cool to have on my filco.. plus I need a new set of keys, just dropped a cable splitter onto my left shift key. Now there's a huge gash in it :/

[laden3]

These keycaps can fit into Das keyboard, I-One etc (all 104 US ANSI keyboards that use Cherry MX switches except Cherry), right?
From a marketing perspective, it would be more advantageous if you mention them in the thread. Just a suggestion... might help to increase the number of interested buyers

[WhiteRice]

Interested in one, maybe two.

If you're going to do this you may consider doing a couple international keys and maybe some color options. The cost of additional keys is less per key and you might be able to get a lot more people interested in sets.

I'm sure people would like a few colored keys (colored ESC, for instance).

Do you know how many extra keys we would need to add and what they would be?

[wirefish]

Howdy. I have been lurking for a bit, but this is a good reason to register.

I'd be up for at least 1 set, and probably 2 if we reach the 50+ threshold. As for colors, I really like the dolch gray/dark gray color scheme and retro font size and placement, but I am not too picky. Going with plain black would be a little boring, though.

[ironman31]

Going with plain black would be a little boring, though.

I agree

[WhiteRice]

I agree

I concur, you'll probably be able to get black from Majestouch eventually anyway.

Same reason I would like to avoid blue WASD, and red Esc. Been done already.

[Kairxa]

Count me in.
The only problem with me is its font.

P.S.: I might change my mind if the freight cost is ridiculous.

[Lanx]

I'm down, would really like reverse L. (otherwise i'd have to mod keyboard again!)

[Delicious Deity]

Can we please go with chartreuse keys? Come on people live a little!

[jnsjr]

I'm in for 1 set.  I like the dark grey with the centered big old school font.  I dig the black and grey combination too.  I like the idea of a diff colored WASD, I'm not really sold on the orange but it's not a dealbreaker.  I'm using the traditional filco USA layout.

[elbowglue]

I would be in for a set, I would prefer the Dolch style keycaps as well.

[In Stereo!]

I'm in for two sets, please.

[zefrer]

I'm in for one set also. Would also prefer deutch style with non os-specific modifier keys and potentially a replacement control key for caps lock (would be nice).

[woody]

Glad to finally see this going. I will probably jump on the wagon, although shipping and customs will make it a rather nasty experience. Maybe keyboardco from UK would want to stock some?

I like the typewriter font, reminds me of some very old computers. As to colours, probably I'm the only one who prefers light keys. Special coloured keys like WASD should be optional so everyone puts only those which he/she likes. Me, I'd just go with all the keys in some light colour and boring, non-futuristic legends. Non-OS specific meta keys, too.

Changing the font size won't be cheap, since requires new molds.

@WhiteRice: have you asked SP whether they provide different keycap thickness? Also, options for plastic type?

[Zen]

I'm in for 2 sets provided there will be inverted L enter keys and German-style SHIFT .
Hell, even if there won't be any I might buy them anyway,
anything is bound to be better than the steelseries key-craps I have now .

I also got two Access-IS POS keyboards with doubleshots from Signature Plastics
and you know what ?
They ain't bad at all, they feel A LOT more solid than steelseries keycraps ..

[Fwiffo]

I would be OK with the suggested dark gray plus black color scheme, as well as all black. To throw another idea out there, how would people feel about a two-tone scheme with something like dark indigo and black?

Fonts aren't a deal-breaker for me, but I'm honestly not crazy about the giant, centered typewriter style; I'd prefer something modern looking, but obviously not the goofy fonts you'd see on a Razor or Deck or something. I do like the look of the Filco font.

[itlnstln]

These would be great in black (minus the Korean legends).  I like the font, too.   I think they were made by Signature Plastics as well.

[WhiteRice]

Glad to finally see this going. I will probably jump on the wagon, although shipping and customs will make it a rather nasty experience. Maybe keyboardco from UK would want to stock some?

I like the typewriter font, reminds me of some very old computers. As to colours, probably I'm the only one who prefers light keys. Special coloured keys like WASD should be optional so everyone puts only those which he/she likes. Me, I'd just go with all the keys in some light colour and boring, non-futuristic legends. Non-OS specific meta keys, too.

Changing the font size won't be cheap, since requires new molds.

@WhiteRice: have you asked SP whether they provide different keycap thickness? Also, options for plastic type?

I will ask about thickness, but I think that would require retooling.

I know that the plastic options for DCS style keys are ABS and PBT. I believe we were quoted for PBT. I will ask for more specifics.

[muchadoaboutnothing]

It'd be nice if we could get a Signature Plastics rep on here so we could chew their ear off once and get it all documented in an orderly fashion from an official source.

Rip would then proceed to make a wiki article from it and link to it multiple times a day from OCN.

Seriously though, it has to be easier than a million and one back and forth emails.

[sixty]

I am pretty sure thickness will require retooling and we won't be able to afford that.
It seems that no company is able to make thick keys anymore besides Hooleon in the UK, but they are unable to make double shots.

Also for those requesting language specific keys.. keep in mind that we will have to order at least 50 of each, since that is the minimum order requirement at signature plastics for single keys.

I find it very unlikely that we will find 50 people who are okay with an additional short shift or ISO Enter key, when we already have trouble finding 25 people to even jump in on the set deal as is.

[muchadoaboutnothing]

I am pretty sure thickness will require retooling and we won't be able to afford that.
It seems that no company is able to make thick keys anymore besides Hooleon in the UK, but they are unable to make double shots.

Also for those requesting language specific keys.. keep in mind that we will have to order at least 50 of each, since that is the minimum order requirement at signature plastics for single keys.

I find it very unlikely that we will find 50 people who are okay with an additional short shift or ISO Enter key, when we already have trouble finding 25 people to even jump in on the set deal as is.

There are a lot of fixed costs with setting up the production run, so the cost of a few additional keys shouldn't be that much, In fact, the volume may make such a run cheaper in the end (if you can sell double the sets for a few more keys).

For instance, how many keys change on a UK layout? 8, right? If you can sell double the sets for 8 additional keys the cost per set may be lower even if you have more keys per set.

This forgets the logistics of international shipping and such.

Ultimately citing the flat quotes is kind of difficult because there's a bunch of factors, even if Whiterice is willing to eat some costs (e.g. gas to the post office).
-Cost per set
-Freight (to WhiteRice or whoever does the order)
-Freight (to ship the keys individually)
-Loss (especially internationally, at least one order is never going to make it)
-Risk that people promising interest will ultimately back out when time to commit comes

Ultimately someone is going to have to do it and it's definitely going to be a number of bucks over just the simple cost per set. I'd strongly advise preorders.

[WhiteRice]

muchadoaboutnothing is correct.

I'm not looking to make money, but I'm not looking to lose any either! I've realized that I will  probably have to front a certain amount, but I expect at least 75% of orders to be placed and paid before I give signature the go ahead.

I started doing some simple estimations on freight shipping from Signature to me.

For 50 sets of keys it will possibly be $200 dollars, but split among 50 orders is $4.

Then ~$5 domestic US shipping via USPS priority. ~$12 for international.

If anyone lives in or near Washington and would be interested in helping with distribution please let me know. Perhaps we can save some money on freight. I live in New Jersey so all my estimations are based on shipping across the country.

[muchadoaboutnothing]

muchadoaboutnothing is correct.

I'm not looking to make money, but I'm not looking to lose any either! I've realized that I will  probably have to front a certain amount, but I expect at least 75% of orders to be placed and paid before I give signature the go ahead.

I started doing some simple estimations on freight shipping from Signature to me.

For 50 sets of keys it will possibly be $200 dollars, but split among 50 orders is $4.

Then ~$5 domestic US shipping via USPS priority. ~$12 for international.

If anyone lives in or near Washington and would be interested in helping with distribution please let me know. Perhaps we can save some money on freight. I live in New Jersey so all my estimations are based on shipping across the country.

So we're looking at ~$50 per set shipped domestically if you can manage 50 orders and give yourself no buffer for fraud/your time/lost in transit shipments. Once you account for some of the other stuff you're probably looking at $55-$60 a set.

This assumes that all the changes we're interested in don't substantially raise the cost.

[sixty]

There are a lot of fixed costs with setting up the production run, so the cost of a few additional keys shouldn't be that much, In fact, the volume may make such a run cheaper in the end (if you can sell double the sets for a few more keys).

This does not actually seem to matter. Each run of keys is calculated separately for non default keys (meaning those excluded from their 104 key set). When I had the geekhack keys made the original plan was to have an additional one with ESC legend. However effective cost is the same as two separate orders, since the legend changes.

So it doesn't matter if you order 104 keys + additional keys, the cost for the additional keys would be the same as if we would order them separately, unless SP makes us a special deal. And they did not seem interested in doing that back then when I asked.

So unless we ALL also get the additional keys like ISO enter and UK keys, I can't see a way to include these in a cost efficient setup, since they will have to be paid for separately.