Realforce 87U Opened Up

[FKSSR]

Very interesting!  So, the domes are actually what give the different feel (30g to 55g)?  Did I understand that correctly?

[CrapTypist]

So if the domes are a big part of the key action, I wonder if the action will degrade the way ho-hum dome 'boards are known to do.  Sure hope not!

So far this is the first kb that actually makes me want to go to work to type on it.  haha

[lam47]

Lol. That was funny. Im not sure if slightly springy rubber dome board is a very good description no offence. I have not used a single rubber dome board that has come close to the feel of the Topre switch.

As for durability. In a standard rubber dome board its not so much the rubber that wears out but the contacts. As there are no contacts in the Topre its rated at 35million key presses (I think)
Its still not as much as cherry rate there switches at though.

[alpslover]

Lol. That was funny. Im not sure if slightly springy rubber dome board is a very good description no offence. I have not used a single rubber dome board that has come close to the feel of the Topre switch.

i've typed on a few dell and hp rubber dome keyboards that come close.  they aren't as smooth, or as springy, but the tactile response of the domes is very similar.

[FKSSR]

I can't wait to try out a HHKB and/or Realforce (hopefully at the KEG meeting in the NYC area soon), but the more I read, the less I feel I will like the switches on these keyboards.

[lam47]

i've typed on a few dell and hp rubber dome keyboards that come close.  they aren't as smooth, or as springy, but the tactile response of the domes is very similar.

Do you think you could link me to a model?
I would like to find a board that is close. Would help a lot of people decide if they want to pay for a Topre.
Thanks.

[lam47]

The virgin in the picture looks a little like a fella. I guess nobody said it wouldn't be.

[FKSSR]

I can sometimes imagine that when playing bass, but I'm still not that into keyboards...

Also, it appears that your Filco w/ browns is your second favorite next to the Realforce.  I don't like typing on browns, so I think you and I just differ on what we want our typing keyboards to feel like.  At this point, I honestly only like typing on white-alps or buckling springs.  I have a bit of hope that a Filco w/ blues would fit my fancy, but I didn't like the G80-3000 w/ blues.

Anyway...my point is that I don't think my personal preferences fit with the Realforce.

[FKSSR]

The virgin in the picture looks a little like a fella. I guess nobody said it wouldn't be.

I like androgyny.  As the Greeks did...

[FKSSR]

Romans, Greeks, potAto, pota(h)to

[alpslover]

Do you think you could link me to a model?
I would like to find a board that is close. Would help a lot of people decide if they want to pay for a Topre.
Thanks.

here is one:  hp ku-0316.  it's a usb keyboard bundled with some of their pc's.

bear in mind that all i'm saying is that the only aspect of this keyboard that somewhat approaches a topre is the tactility of the rubber domes.  the hp is not as smooth, heavy, or rigid.  the keys don't bottom or top out as nicely as on a topre, they don't feel as 'springy', and they wobble quite a bit more.  the feel of the keys can vary from sample to sample (i've typed on some that were quite mushy and some that were quite crisp) and even from key to key on the same keyboard.

[FKSSR]

Wow.  That's some disclaimer.  I think the point is that nothing but a Topre really feels like a Topre (so far), but if you like certain types of other (reliable) switches, you may or may not like this one.

...Basically, you still have to try one to be sure...

[alpslover]

Wow.  That's some disclaimer.  I think the point is that nothing but a Topre really feels like a Topre (so far), but if you like certain types of other (reliable) switches, you may or may not like this one.

no other keyswitch feels exactly like a topre, but some tactile rubber domes do come close (which makes sense since a topre IS a rubber dome with a spring underneath and a different switching mechanism).

the idea is not to find a cheap substitute for a topre, but to give someone a taste of what to expect without spending $300 first.  rubber dome keyboards vary widely in feel - some are just pure mush, but others really aren't all that bad.

[CrapTypist]

I've only had my Topre for a few days, but I can say this: My first good keyboard was an '89 M, and I love typing on it, but there's something deliberate about it.  The loudness and pressure needed to type on it made it annoying after a while, especially while cranking on a deadline.

The Realforce feels, to me, like my hands are more free to channel information into the computer, unhindered.  It's really well-made and solid, they keys don't chatter around, and the gradation in force from finger to finger feels quite well thought-out and is a help for me, especially on this week's lonnnnngggg workdays.

The keys actuate at what seems like 1\4 if the way through the stroke, so if you get your hand posture right, you can get away with a very light touch.  Nice.  The feel in general is just so, so nice.  Worth $300?  Ehhhhh...  Depends on how much you type, I guess.  Before I came here I scarcely knew keyboards sold for over $60 or so.  lol

Dunno, I love it, even if it doesn't have the macho ker-chung of the big beige boat.

(Disclaimer: Still in glow-mode over new 'board)

[lam47]

no other keyswitch feels exactly like a topre, but some tactile rubber domes do come close (which makes sense since a topre IS a rubber dome with a spring underneath and a different switching mechanism).

the idea is not to find a cheap substitute for a topre, but to give someone a taste of what to expect without spending $300 first.  rubber dome keyboards vary widely in feel - some are just pure mush, but others really aren't all that bad.

Exactly. I would like to get one of these rubber boards and if I feel the feel ()is close to a topre in any way would post it off around the world for people to try before going for a HH or a Realforce.
 
Thanks.

[rdjack21]

Yea Haaa!!! Just got mine in!!!!

And I do have to agree you can't really describe the feel of it in any meaningful way that someone else would understand. I still need to type on it a little longer to make sure but I really think this is going to be my main board from now on. I'm even thinking of ordering another one so I have a spare.

[ozar]

I'm even thinking of ordering another one so I have a spare.

It really is nice to have an extra on hand for any keyboard you truly like, and if you keep the backup in a "new in box" condition, it could become worth lots of money in the future should you ever decide to sell it.

[FKSSR]

no other keyswitch feels exactly like a topre, but some tactile rubber domes do come close (which makes sense since a topre IS a rubber dome with a spring underneath and a different switching mechanism).

the idea is not to find a cheap substitute for a topre, but to give someone a taste of what to expect without spending $300 first.  rubber dome keyboards vary widely in feel - some are just pure mush, but others really aren't all that bad.

Yeah, I can totally understand that.

[rdjack21]

Uhh... I would wait a while to make sure this is "THE ONE".    My short time here I haven't seen a lot of people stick to a favorite.  The sane ones must go hang around the trackball forum or something.

Glad you like it though.

- Ripster

Oh I plan on using for a bit before I completely go nuts and get more of them. I have about a month before stlensbar's listings expire which should give me time to be fairly certain that I want another one.

I still plan on getting another cherry brown board as well because I like those as well. But those will be more of a backup board verses the main board. And I still need something at work that is usable that I will not get to worked up about if it grows legs and walks off.

[rdjack21]

It really is nice to have an extra on hand for any keyboard you truly like, and if you keep the backup in a "new in box" condition, it could become worth lots of money in the future should you ever decide to sell it.

Very true on the "new in box" part. I mostly just like to have a back up just in case.

[dougy]

ripster, is there any chance you could post some closeups of the board without the membrane and maybe another of the bottom of the keycaps? I've been wondering if splaying a Topre might be feasible, but need lots more information.

[lam47]

Hmm. The rubber dome for the 30 keys is on the same sheet as the 45 keys?
And yet they have managed to mould them thinner?

[lam47]

lol, You make me smile

[iMav]

Another interesting note is the rather zigzag dome construction.  Why they couldn't just do one big sheet like everyone else is kinda strange.

At least they are not all individual pieces like on the HHKB's.  (check it)

[wellington1869]

so basically you're saying this is a rubber dome board, with very very light springs inside the domes, and the main nice feel comes from the engineering on the key switches/sliders and their 'tight fit'. This is a tight fitting slider over a regular rubber dome basically.

[keyb_gr]

This is a tight fitting slider over a regular rubber dome basically.

Minus the need for bottoming out, that is.

[wellington1869]

I"m wondering, if the tactile bump is barely noticeable on the topres, why do you guys say you dont need to bottom out?

[I tried the topres briefly, and I bottomed out like I normally do (tho i tend to bottom out on whatever i'm using, i have 'heavy fingers' when i type)]

[rdjack21]

ripster - Great research thanks for the insight into how these boards work.

I would also add that this may also explain why a used Topre will feel slightly different then a brand spanking new one. For instance my 87U does feel slightly crisper than the one year old 86U I have. The both feel and type great but there is diffidently a difference. So after a wear in period these boards will have a different feel to them it is not a bad difference IMHO but it is still a difference.

[wellington1869]

I will say though, it's a satisfying soft landing when you do.

agreed, its "velvety".

I would also add that this may also explain why a used Topre will feel slightly different then a brand spanking new one. For instance my 87U does feel slightly crisper than the one year old 86U I have. The both feel and type great but there is diffidently a difference. So after a wear in period these boards will have a different feel to them it is not a bad difference IMHO but it is still a difference.

good to know; i was wondering about that.

[watduzhkstand4]

so the capacitive switches are just normal rubber domes except they added an extra spring in it? So How is this keyboard worth $300+ again? I want to get one but not it kinda just turned me off

[itlnstln]

so the capacitive switches are just normal rubber domes except they added an extra spring in it?

No.  There is a wikipedia article on capacitive switches.  These do not function anything like rubber domes.  The domes only provide tactility; they have nothing (at least as far as I can tell, anyway) to do with the actual functionality.

[itlnstln]

iMav, bigpook, and XsPhat have used their HHKBs for a long time, and I haven't heard any of them talk about wearing out a Topre switch.

[o2dazone]

I'm not a professional in this field, but unlike a switch dome, a capacitive switch contacts the PCB via a pad. Which means there's fewer moving parts to break or wear. Also, the capacitive connection to the PCB can happen before the key is bottomed out, allowing you to type faster without having to fully depress keys like a switch dome. That's all I really all I know about the two.

Oh, and epeen status, just think of the crowds of women that will come flocking when they've found out you bought a $300 keyboard.

More info here (capacitive) and here (switch dome)

[itlnstln]

Oh, and epeen status, just think of the crowds of women that will come flocking when they've found out you bought a $300 keyboard.

I think you mean the crowds of women that will be flocking in the other direction when they've found out you bought a $300 keyboard.

[o2dazone]

haha nice way to measure that out

[itlnstln]

I was wondering how they were able to stay stacked at that angle.

[o2dazone]

I'm easily amused.

I thought I would really emphasize this, as it's a complete understatement lol

[rdjack21]

That is a cool experiment it makes me want to see if the 86U is really 30g on the pinkie keys because I really can't tell the difference between the 86U and the 87U pinkie keys. Also my 86U has been used for over a year now so I'm also wondering if the weights are the same as new or very slightly used.

[_js_]

So I'm going to be removing my keycaps on my 103U--bought a keycap puller from EK along with a red ESC key--and I'm wondering: should I open up the top cover by undoing the four tabs on bottom?  Or can/should I just leave it on while I remove, clean, and reinstall my keycaps?  Do I need to take it off?  Should I take it off?  Thanks in advance for any advice!

[TheProfosist]

So I'm going to be removing my keycaps on my 103U--bought a keycap puller from EK along with a red ESC key--and I'm wondering: should I open up the top cover by undoing the four tabs on bottom?  Or can/should I just leave it on while I remove, clean, and reinstall my keycaps?  Do I need to take it off?  Should I take it off?  Thanks in advance for any advice!

Leave the case together if your just dealing with the keycaps.

[_js_]

Thanks!  Will do.

[_js_]

OK.  I'm sorry if this is a stupid question.  I've searched high and low and I haven't found a clear description nor a video of EXACTLY how to use the Leopold key cap removal tool to remove the Topre key caps.  I found a video for the Cherry MX key caps, and on that video, the tool was aligned so that the "bars" slipped over the LEFT and RIGHT sides of the key cap, and it was then twisted slightly to grab upper left and lower right corners, and pulled straight up.

But, comparing the width of those bars with the width of the red ESC keycap I have, the sides of the keycap are WIDER than the bars, so how is it going to slip over them?  Should I slip it over the top and bottom?  I'm sure I'm probably over thinking this, but would someone please tell me precisely how they remove their keycaps--suggestions, warnings, comments--all that sort of stuff?  Is the space bar handled differently?  (I bought two pulling tools just in case a 2nd one might come in handy).

Or should I just leave them on and clean them in place?  And with what?  How much of a PITA is it to pull all 103 keycaps off and replace them?

I'm sorry if I'm over thinking this, but I just don't want to take any chances with a $240 keyboard.

[_js_]

ripster,

I found your wiki guide to keys

That has a link about the spacebar on a Topre.  Thanks for the awesome info!

[_js_]

Errr.  So, HOW do I remove the spacebar?  Just use two pullers on either side?  You know, at this point, I think I'm getting scared off and maybe will just clean them in place with isopropyl alcohol.  Geesh.