Kinesis Contoured Try & Forward

[REVENGE]

By the time this is finished, those Cherry Browns will have turned into Blacks!

[sordna]

Looks like I owe you all an apology.

First: I've taken forever with the kinesis.
Second: I still haven't posted my thoughts.
Third: I cleaned up my room and found the manual.

I feel like there's not really any way I could have messed up worse. I will do what I can to fix things. I'll see what I can type up from my notes ASAP.

Cool! As for the manual, hold on to it until the keyboard reaches someone in the US, then you can mail it to them for cheap.

[Keyboarder]

Hey sordna, it's great that you're doing this. I would love to try it but seeing as I am a new member i'd understand that you reserve to right to let more established members use it.
This is great for the community though! Thanks for doing this!

[jblack801]

Hey sordna, it's great that you're doing this. I would love to try it but seeing as I am a new member i'd understand that you reserve to right to let more established members use it.
This is great for the community though! Thanks for doing this!

Welcome! Get posting and order yourself some keycaps!

[heuristicist]

Got the keyboard today! I am unfortunately stuck with several hours of marking, so I can't give it a go until the weekend, but I will post my impressions as soon as I have them. I did put my hands on it for a few minutes to just try typing and have to say that it is weird and is definitely going to take some acclimatization. Installing Arch on my desktop may be a good way to do that The only other thing I can say about it is that, while it does feel different, I don't feel some massive ergonomic advantage, probably because my hands are still contorting themselves in the way that's been built up by decades of a standard QWERTY keyboard. OTOH on my TE, which I haven't used all that much, I did feel relatively quickly that it was a bit more comfortable, but I'm still fuming over the non-standard placement of the non-alphanumeric keys to really say more there. The TE is my first mechanical keyboard though so maybe that's what I was feeling.

[Zanth]

Like heuristicist, I wen the TE route first (a Canadian thing?) and am excited to have a shot with the Kinesis.  I have a Kinesis Freestyle at work and really enjoy it, even though the keys are pseudo-mechanical.  Thank you again to sordna for offering this try & forward.  Without direct access to the Advantage, I'll admit to being reluctant to buy and then attempt a resell with little loss.  This opportunity will be fruitful.  Many thanks.

[heuristicist]

The Freestyle seems annoyingly expensive for what it is. Plus when I first heard of it I was really upset of having to decide between split and mechanical---I think my ideal would be something like a mechanical Freestyle. The ErgoDox does the nice column layout but the non-standard placement of the non-alphanumeric keys on the TE is really annoying to me so far, and IIRC ErgoDox does something along similar lines...

[Zanth]

The Advantage is enroute!  I will report back with my experience.  I agree with heuristicist regarding the cost for what the Freestyle is, however, the keys feel mechanical-like (a nice bonus) but the wonder of a near infinite positional plane makes it ridiculously superior to nearly any input device I've ever used.  I'm hoping that Advantage can unseat it, because I really do prefer mechanical keys.

[heuristicist]

Sorry for the delay in posting my impressions! I've had a hectic couple of days. The keyboard is now on its way to Zanth. My impressions follow.

So after having spent almost two weeks with the Advantage---not having used it all the time, mind you, as I did have to use my laptop on occasion---I have to say that its biggest strength for me is the hand separation. Seriously, I loved it. It made it viable to sit back in my chair and type that way. The second big advantage is overall comfort; I really felt like the rest position was quite natural for my hands.

I bought a TE a couple of months ago, and that was my first experience with ergonomic (except some miscellaneous Microsoft keyboards here and there) as well as my first long-term exposure to a mechanical (I had picked up a keyboard with blacks and one with blues for about a week). I find that the TE strikes a good balance between a standard keyboard and the Kinesis. It is a good size and the keys feel nice (I didn't get to compare them side-by-side, but my first TE used blues and the replacement uses browns, and I think I like the blues better).

However, the big problem with all of these alternaboards is the funny placement of non-alphanumeric keys. As someone who spends a lot of time in the terminal (and some time coding too, though I didn't get to do any on the Kinesis), this messed me up big time. While I was typing slowly at first on the Kinesis, I'm sure I can get used to the alphanumeric keys pretty quickly (ditto for the TE); but that's because I use them all the time! The non-alphanumeric keys are used more rarely and hence having to use them in non-standard locations really just results in a lot of swearing. I had a friend of mine give the Kinesis a go, as he had always wanted to try one---but after just a couple of minutes of exasperated swearing and "oh my God"s he gave up. I definitely can't blame him. That said, though, the placement of the non-alphanumerics is definitely better on the Kinesis than the TE. I'm out of town now but when I'm back and have my desktop configuration finalized I will definitely be messing with the layout of the TE.

Like I said, I started off pretty slowly on the Kinesis, and that loss in speed is pretty annoying. It doesn't feel quite worth it at first. I set up my desktop with Arch so did a lot of Linux command-line stuff. Once set up I used it for basic daily work (email, Web stuff, but no coding; all of my files for that were on my laptop). Now that I'm on my laptop, though, I am feeling the difference in comfort rather markedly. Still, I can't help but wonder how long it would take to bring my speed back up. I've never had any RSI issues, and I've been typing a lot for almost two decades; but then again I'm relatively young, so I wouldn't expect to. It seems sensible to try and stave it off, but obviously it's hard to get motivated about something that is so far away. I have also played a lot of piano over the last two decades, and I can't help but wonder why we don't hear so much about pianists with RSI issues...

Now, for the more specific comments:
- What is with those ridiculous rubber keys?
- Why the hell does this keyboard make noises? The noises for the lock keys is especially hilarious. I remap Caps Lock to Esc (yes, I'm a vim user) and every time I hit it it makes the funny noise.
- Why no Windows key? I use it for shortcuts
- I think I have small pinkies. I have trouble hitting the Q and P keys with my pinkies. I think my pinkies are rather small. That, combined with my usual hand position (fingers relatively flat) makes it hard to to reach these keys. It gets better if I move my wrist up a bit so the fingers curve a bit more.
- I like the 20-degree angle that is induced on the hands. It feels much more natural than 0 or 90, but not as much as I imagine a 45-degree angle would.
- I thought I remembered reading that you're supposed to keep your wrists off of the keyboard. I never did this. I tried taking them off, and I felt like I typed faster, but it was too much to remember to keep them off.
- The arrow key placement is retarded.
- I am a left-thumb spacebar person. The space key on the Kinesis is on the right side.
- Like I said about the non-alphanumeric keys, the placement is better on the Kinesis than the TE. For example, the dash/underscore is on the right side, while it's on the left on the TE. I much prefer having it on the right.

That's all I made note of; if I can think of more I'll add it later. Thanks again to sordna for sending his Kinesis around; I really appreciated the chance to check it out!

[Gerk]

I had the same problems with the Kinesis boards and my pinkies ... my pinkies are seemingly just too short to be comfortable on these boards.  My pinkies are so short that it made the resting position on the Kinesis very uncomfortable for me when trying to type as well.  The overall position I had to keep my hands in was not comfortable for me ... my fingers just don't do that whole inward curve well at all.  My fav thing with the Kinesis boards are the separation ... if the keywells were the inverse of what they are I probably would have been very happy on that front.  That said the non alpha-numeric keys also didn't work well for me (the same as your friend).

My ideal ergo keyboard is still non-existant, or at least non-existant from all the boards I've been able to try.  My TE is ok but again the whole "reinvent the wheel" to try and fit all the non alpha-numeric keys into their layouts, which is seemingly is a problem with ALL the argo boards I've tried, is annoying.  The MS ergo 4k comes closest for me in the fact that I like the split, it's comfortable and the keys are all in the right places ... but that said the rubber domes and poor construction on them make me crazy.

It's great that sordna has one of these making the rounds and great reading what others think of them!

[sordna]

My answers to some of your questions:

- Why the hell does this keyboard make noises? The noises for the lock keys is especially hilarious. I remap Caps Lock to Esc (yes, I'm a vim user) and every time I hit it it makes the funny noise.

It's to alert you that you hit caps lock by accident. You can individually toggle both the "click" sound of the plain keys, and the buzz sound of the caps lock / num lock keys if you don't like it. I keep both sounds on actually. Most folks don't use caps lock, so the fact it buzzes by default should be appreciated :-)

- Why no Windows key? I use it for shortcuts

Newer models (Advantage) have windows keys, you can configure the keyboard for windows, mac, or non-windows PC.

- The arrow key placement is retarded.

After swapping up/down arrows to mimic vi, I find them wonderful, after I got used to them... it took a few days though. But now, having them in such close reach, it's a superb productivity boost. I can even game with them.

- I am a left-thumb spacebar person. The space key on the Kinesis is on the right side.

The keyboard is remappable without software, you can move the space bar to the other side.

Thanks for writing about your impressions with the keyboard!

[boli]

Still, I can't help but wonder how long it would take to bring my speed back up.

Can't speak for you, but when I switched to the Kinesis it took me a little over 2 weeks to bring my speed back up (that's also when I ordered a second one, to have one at home and at work), and some more time to get really used to it (at least it was comfortable rather quickly).

- For example, the dash/underscore is on the right side, while it's on the left on the TE. I much prefer having it on the right.

Same here. The plus/equal sign is on the wrong side of the keyboard instead. I couldn't take it and remapped the whole top row (see pic in signature). Having the ability to remap in keyboard firmware is awesome, there's so much useful stuff you can do. Other remappings I did:
- second Enter key for left hand (right hand is on mouse often)
- all arrow keys on the same hand (left hand for the same reason as above), in a Vi(m) style arrangement

[Zanth]

I have had a wonderful time with the Advantage and will post impressions shortly.  I require 500_pts' contact info.  I've contacted the user but have not received a response.  In the event I don't, do I merely bump and go on to the next user?

[sordna]

Yeah, if 500_pts doesn't respond in by the end of the week, I would ship it to Quarzac. 500_pts would be next in line as soon as he gives signs of life.

[Zanth]

Cool, thanks sordna.  I'll give 500_pts until Friday then off to the next in the queue.  Many thanks again for this opportunity.  I now realize I am completely locked into a Windows/Command key and figure that a new Advantage would suit me just fine (given more time to adjust to the ergonomics).

[hashbaz]

How have I missed this thread until now.  Props on doing this sordna.

[heuristicist]

Cool, thanks sordna.  I'll give 500_pts until Friday then off to the next in the queue.  Many thanks again for this opportunity.  I now realize I am completely locked into a Windows/Command key and figure that a new Advantage would suit me just fine (given more time to adjust to the ergonomics).

Since you've used a Freestyle, please be sure to draw comparisons to it The thing itself is only $100 vs. $300 for the Advantage (although if you want the Ascent addon that's another $200, and if you want the larger separation that's another $40...). At any rate I'm probably going to be buy a new keyboard this summer (TE isn't working out for me that well so far) and right now I'm on the fence between a Freestyle, an Advantage, and a standard mechanical keyboard like a Das or something.

[Zanth]

500_pts sent me his contact info so we are all organized. I will be shipping out on Thursday morning and 500_pts should see it on the 28th.

[Zanth]

Since you've used a Freestyle, please be sure to draw comparisons to it The thing itself is only $100 vs. $300 for the Advantage (although if you want the Ascent addon that's another $200, and if you want the larger separation that's another $40...). At any rate I'm probably going to be buy a new keyboard this summer (TE isn't working out for me that well so far) and right now I'm on the fence between a Freestyle, an Advantage, and a standard mechanical keyboard like a Das or something.

I use the Freestyle every day for hours on end at work.  I have a Tactile Pro 2 at home and it is fine because my study is away from the family.  Otherwise the click click tap tap click would drive my wife nuts.  I really like the TP's key depressing but I hate the layout.  Because I have various oddities with my wrists, I require something ergonomic.  Nothing comes close to the range of motion of the Freestyle and the keys are actually quite comfortable.  The only reason I wanted to try the Advantage and likely the TE as well was because I want the feel of the TP2 (or better) but with a comfortable typing experience.  

The aluminum bluetooth Mac keyboard is actually quite nice to type on but again, not ergonomic.  Having enjoyed the pseudo-mec of the Freestyle and the fully mech of the TP2, I'm completely sold.

Out of the box, the Freestyle is simple with no learning curve no muscle memory retraining.  It has the buttons one needs (command key etc) and it is full (number pad is an add-on accessory which I did purchase but rarely use).  The Advantage's key depressing is superior with perhaps as much as 3-5 mm less distance required to achieve character generation yet there is a massive learning curve along with in this instance, a dramatic personal need for a command key.  Recoding is fine and I could live with having to via software or other means, get my command key back, but given I HATE using a mouse unless absolutely necessary, my hot key combinations must work nearly out of the box to have user uptake.  In this instance, the Advantage would be a side project in parallel with what I currently have.

I've read 3 weeks+ to fully integrate the keyboard into normal work day workflows.  I can accept that as a reasonable timeframe but one has to commit to practicing, getting over the frustration of muscles fatiguing or wanting to move and actively forcing oneself to adjust.  This isn't novel by any stretch but it is worth mentioning for anyone throwing down big bucks on a unique input device.  

I could see myself enjoying a TE because of its form factor along with the mechanic keys and the lack of muscle memory required to change over.  The Advantage offers advantages  Foot pedals, incredible macro flexibility and the ergonomics along with the nice mechanical keys.  The problems as I see it are the learning curve.  This is obviously well known here and anyone diving in has likely thought about it.  However, one shouldn't downplay the learning curve aspect, not unlike going from QWERTY to DVORAK.

Without a command key, I found the Advantage quite limited and limiting.  I'd say in all fairness that I was not able to give it all that it deserved in terms of my effort.  Yet, the trial was super informative and exactly what I needed.  My next move will be to acquire a TE for a time and if it sticks, I'll stick with it.  The Advantage will be an experiment later on and one that I will commit to but it is a lot to throw down and a lot of work to retrain.

Thank you again to sordna for the opportunity to test out before having to lay out my own cash.  The cost of shipping and duty/tax would have been tough to swallow but this experience and the cost involved was perfect for me to understand what it will take for me to fully immerse myself in what the Advantage has to offer.

[Lanx]

you read 3+ weeks, i did it in less than a week, of course the first 2 days were horrible, but really all you're learn is to use your thumbs more. (i put away my daily driver in order to force myself to learn, i wonder if ppl who spent 3weeks learning the kinesis did the same?)

[dorkvader]

It's much longer for those of us, like me, that still need to learn to touch type properly.

[Lanx]

that's true, matrix layout forces proper typing, or at least the correct usage of where fingers should go and press.

[Quarzac]

Ooh, am I next on the list? I forgot all about this, since I signed up four months ago. Sweet!

[dorkvader]

I need to mail the user manual to either 500_Pts or Quarzac, depending on whoever is living in the USA.

[heuristicist]

I could see myself enjoying a TE because of its form factor along with the mechanic keys and the lack of muscle memory required to change over.

Obviously YMMV but I actually found that the Advantage was easier to get used to than the TE. Form factor isn't an issue for me, but I like having shift, tab, slash, etc. in their usual places. Moving keys around that are less commonly used than the strictly alphabetical keys didn't work out so well for me because of how much I live in the command line. I use keys like slash, pipe, tab, and tilde a LOT so I appreciated that they were in their normal positions on the Advantage. These keys are used infrequently enough that I don't imagine much benefit from making them more (purportedly) ergonomic, but for me frequent enough that moving them around so drastically is really frustrating. A lot of people have also echoed that swapping Ctrl and swap with the TE has been very helpful, which is another example of how their funny placement can be off-putting. Plus there is also the fact that the TE isn't well-supported, which for me initially wasn't an issue, and they handled replacement of my TE that had blues very well, but now that I've used it for a while and I'm seeing more problems I can't get through to them.

TLDR having tried both and currently living with a TE, I'd recommend the Advantage over the TE more or less unanimously unless form factor is a real issue. Just wish they sold blues :/

The ergo sub-forum is probably not the best place to express this view, but I've also started to become of the opinion that ergonomic devices are only really worth it if you have or are starting to see RSI/CTS/etc. Given my disappointment with the TE and the high price of the Advantage (or even ErgoDox) I'm probably going to settle on something like a Filco Tenkeyless (or maybe a FreeStyle, although the inclination attachments are just too expensive) until I start to feel I need an ergonomic keyboard.

[Lanx]

The ergo sub-forum is probably not the best place to express this view, but I've also started to become of the opinion that ergonomic devices are only really worth it if you have or are starting to see RSI/CTS/etc. Given my disappointment with the TE and the high price of the Advantage (or even ErgoDox) I'm probably going to settle on something like a Filco Tenkeyless (or maybe a FreeStyle, although the inclination attachments are just too expensive) until I start to feel I need an ergonomic keyboard.

do you believe you can go back to a staggered layout? coming from a matrix one of both the TE or the Kinesis? I mean i can goto a staggered no problem, if it's my netbook/notebook, cuz those are just travel books, but i wouldn't want it to be my daily driver, my fingers are now used to not being contorted lol, cuz if you think about it, your fingers have to do some gymnastics in order to reach some of the keys, even with "proper" touch typing skills.

[heuristicist]

do you believe you can go back to a staggered layout? coming from a matrix one of both the TE or the Kinesis? I mean i can goto a staggered no problem, if it's my netbook/notebook, cuz those are just travel books, but i wouldn't want it to be my daily driver, my fingers are now used to not being contorted lol, cuz if you think about it, your fingers have to do some gymnastics in order to reach some of the keys, even with "proper" touch typing skills.

I generally prefer the feel of the TE but I prefer the layout of my laptop right now. It's far more familiar. Keep in mind that I'm fighting ~15 years of muscle memory on a matrix layout. And while it's true that you might have to do some funny stretches on a staggered layout, the matrix layout (at least how it is on the TE) has its own disadvantages. For example, because I type pretty quickly, typing the "in" bigram means pressing the two keys next-to-simultaneously, which is an annoying stretch on the TE. Plus using my pinkies for Q and P is still tricky. I think my pinkies might be smaller than average or something but I really prefer using my ring finger for those keys, even on the TE, although less so on the Advantage.

Maybe because I started becoming a heavy keyboard user when I was relatively young (10ish), my fingers have grown into a shape more suited for staggered layouts

[Lanx]

idk, i learned "proper" typing at 8 or so and only in the last year have used matrix, i think you should have given the kinesis more of a test run, sounds like the bowl, keywell shape would be better than the column stagger that the TE provides.

[heuristicist]

idk, i learned "proper" typing at 8 or so and only in the last year have used matrix, i think you should have given the kinesis more of a test run, sounds like the bowl, keywell shape would be better than the column stagger that the TE provides.

Not saying it isn't, only that it may not be worth the money unless you are specifically feeling pain that would be fixed by it, which AFAICT I'm not. I also know someone who had RSI issues and then started using Dvorak on an Advantage. Now she's ditched the Advantage and just uses her laptop with Dvorak and has no problems, so Dvorak would be the cheaper alternative to paying $300 for an ergonomic keyboard.

[sordna]

Ooh, am I next on the list? I forgot all about this, since I signed up four months ago. Sweet!

Zanth said in this post that he got the contact info from 500_pts, so your turn comes right after that.

Hey Zanth, please PM me the tracking number once you ship it, thanks!

[boli]

Without a command key, I found the Advantage quite limited and limiting.  I'd say in all fairness that I was not able to give it all that it deserved in terms of my effort.  Yet, the trial was super informative and exactly what I needed.  My next move will be to acquire a TE for a time and if it sticks, I'll stick with it.  The Advantage will be an experiment later on and one that I will commit to but it is a lot to throw down and a lot of work to retrain.

Maybe I'm missing something here but the Advantage I have has two Command keys when in Mac mode. On the picture in the first post both Ctrl become Command in Mac mode, and right Alt becomes Ctrl (IIRC).
And of course you can remap all of them to your heart's content. For an example check out my sig: I wanted 2 Option (Alt) keys and a Ctrl key on the left, so I did make it so.

On a side note despite the TE's more "normal" physical layout, the extra keys they moved around resulted in a steeper learning curve than the Advantage in my (and a coworker's) opinion.

[natas206]

Maybe I'm missing something here but the Advantage I have has two Command keys when in Mac mode. On the picture in the first post both Ctrl become Command in Mac mode, and right Alt becomes Ctrl (IIRC).

Default Mac Mode:

[sordna]

Hey Zanth / 500_pts, where is the keyboard at? I did not receive any tracking number and didn't see any post saying the keyboard was sent or received. Please update ASAP.

[treigle]

On a side note despite the TE's more "normal" physical layout, the extra keys they moved around resulted in a steeper learning curve than the Advantage in my (and a coworker's) opinion.

After a few months with both (which I received a day apart), I definitely have to agree. Not only is there a steeper learning curve with the TE, but it's just a little easier to switch back and forth between a "standard" keyboard and a Kinesis than with a TE.

[sordna]

Ok, Zanth sent me a tracking number, thanks! 500_pts should receive the keyboard on Monday.

Please update us once you get it, 500_pts!

[heuristicist]

On a side note despite the TE's more "normal" physical layout, the extra keys they moved around resulted in a steeper learning curve than the Advantage in my (and a coworker's) opinion.

My experience echoes this.

[jblack801]

How's this coming along since geekhack has been restored? Any review from 500_pts?

[dorkvader]

I still have the manual, and still want to send it to, the person (or the next person) with the keyboard. I don't know about 500_PTS, though. I hope he's still around.

[sordna]

500_pts is still around, we exchanged PMs. He said he loved the keyboard and is ready to ship it to the next person.
I do hope he will write a small review soon.
The next person is supposed to be Quarzac, is Quarzac around? If you are, can you please PM 500_pts with your address?
Please post here too, to let us know if you are still around & interested, or if we should send the keyboard to the next person on the list.
Thanks!

[Quarzac]

I'm around, but I'm gonna have to delay my shift with the board, as it would currently overlap a move across the country. So let's bump me down the list a person or two and keep things trucking. Sorry for holding things up.

[Daniel Beaver]

I'm still around and interested (just in case slueth has dropped off, I haven't seen any posts from him recently).

[sordna]

Slueth / Daniel Beaver,
please contact 500_pts directly. If Slueth doesn't make arrangements till Friday, then you should get it next Daniel Beaver.

I'll put Quarzac after you two on the list.

[shrap]

Awesome this thread is still going! Only six more months till I might be next!

[Trent]

I am interested if sign ups are still available.

[sordna]

Ok, replaced dante with Trent in the list.

Hope 500_pts sends the board to slueth soon, slueth told me he PM'd his address to 500_pts.
Also 500_pts, please make sure to post your thoughts/experience with this keyboard, that is a requirement for all participants :-)

[sordna]

Any update folks? I'm starting to get worried for the first time regarding this effort.

Where is 500_pts and Slueth ? Where is the keyboard ?

[slueth]

I sent my address to him, he hasn't responded or sent me the keyboard :/

[sordna]

Do you have his email address, maybe you can try to contact him that way.

[slueth]

Sorry don't have his email.

[sordna]

Zanth, how about you, since you sent the keyboard to 500_pts you must have his contact info. I never expected 500_pts to disappear with my keyboard like this :-(