Lets just call this market research: Ideas on doing a IBM Model M mod service...

[ezrahilyer]

I have been pretty well bitten by the Model M modification bug. I have done several conversions using an internal teensy, and a beautiful flush-mount internal USB connection. (I am quite proud of this) see how great it looks:


I have also come up with my own system for bolt-modding, except I am using small screws and washers to keep the keyboard plate very thin and to replicate the original rivets pretty closely. here is a pic of that:



I have now made and sold a few of these M122 keyboard conversions, and I love it. I am working on a very detailed how-to for people who are mechanically inclined, so that they can do this themselves. I am putting it up on my blog: http://straypoetry.com/ibm-model-m-keyboard/ (It is not finished yet, but go ahead and check it out and let me know what you think)

Anyway, I have been asked a few times if I would do a conversion on a keyboard for someone who doesn't want to do it themselves, and I am considering starting a service to convert the M122s, and standard model M's to USB using Soarers converter, and doing bolt-Mods.

My question to you is this: What do you think would be a good price-point? something that would be reasonable given the time involved, and allow me to make enough to make it worthwhile? ( the raw material costs are: $16 for the Teensy, $4.50 for the Bulkhead connector, $6 for the Screws, $4.50 for the washers, so that is : $31 in materials alone without shipping or incidentals like cleaning supplies, or anything like that)

I am also looking for ideas on what types of services might be wanted... I would do Screw-mods, and USB conversions, but what about just general cleaning, and maybe dying the keyboards... Doing ANSI conversions for the M122s, and maybe even doing a Raspberry Pi inside, or some hidden USB storage inside.
Any and all ideas and comments welcome..
-Ezra

[GL1TCH3D]

Looks really good and looks like you've thought it through a bit. For obvious reasons you'll want to charge the exact shipping cost. It's normal practice to do that anyway.
You could factor in about $10/hr of your work since I don't think anyone would consider that unfair.
If it takes you 3 hours to finish the mods then charge roughly $30 premium?

[SpAmRaY]

Don't have any useful to add other than to say your blog looks very nice!

[HoffmanMyster]

First, I want to say that this is a cool service to offer and I fully support it. (Though I don't need it myself)

Second, I've moved this to Artisan Services, as that's more fitting for the service you will be offering. If you have any questions about this decision, please PM me. 

Best of luck!   

[mreverything]

I want to say that this is a cool service to offer and I fully support it. (Though I don't need it myself)

Same here. I don't need this service now, but it looks like you're doing a great job and I could use an excuse to pick up a Model M...

[dante]

Another idea ...

The IBM M2 boards have an issue where 2 capacitors dry up; I think they were bad quality or something.  Perhaps offer a service to replace those capacitors?

[GL1TCH3D]

Adding custom media keys (for example if someone wants a volume knob?) or a USB hub option if space permits are also potential possibilities.

[kalrand]

I think an ansi mod option would be a good idea, since you're doing the bolt mod anyway, and that's just a matter of swapping a few hammers at that point.

Shipping the 122 key keyboards seems like a beast to do, is there any way to do that cheaply?

[geniekid]

Don't have any useful to add other than to say your blog looks very nice!

What he said.

[fohat.digs]

Shipping the 122 key keyboards seems like a beast to do, is there any way to do that cheaply?

I see this as the real problem. The flat rate game board box is great but it is $17 domestic and $78 international.

Round trip at that rate and the final cost to the purchaser balloons.

[rowdy]

Great idea!

Although I assume you are in the US, so I won't be using this service due to shipping costs

Another idea: ANSI conversion.  Many of the keyboards have an ISO layout, apparently it is not that difficult for someone with the necessary skills to convert it to standard ANSI layout.

[GL1TCH3D]

Great idea!

Although I assume you are in the US, so I won't be using this service due to shipping costs

Another idea: ANSI conversion.  Many of the keyboards have an ISO layout, apparently it is not that difficult for someone with the necessary skills to convert it to standard ANSI layout.

***pssst, he mentioned that in his last paragraph***

Anyway, unfortunately there's nothing you can do for shipping. That's what's going to happen with heavy boards.

[rowdy]

Great idea!

Although I assume you are in the US, so I won't be using this service due to shipping costs

Another idea: ANSI conversion.  Many of the keyboards have an ISO layout, apparently it is not that difficult for someone with the necessary skills to convert it to standard ANSI layout.

***pssst, he mentioned that in his last paragraph***

Anyway, unfortunately there's nothing you can do for shipping. That's what's going to happen with heavy boards.

Oh, yeah, so he did.

Ahem.

Supporting the ANSI conversion idea

[ezrahilyer]

thank you one and all for your ideas, and comments.

As several of you have pointed out; the weak point of this whole idea is the weight of these keyboards. They are expensive to ship, and each keyboard would have to be round-tripped from the customer, to me, and then back to the customer.

The last time I shipped one it was $17 by UPS ground, and that was for zone 3, so it would be more for a higher zone. Just for that amount, it would add $34 to the cost of a keyboard modification.

It would not really be cost-effective for me to do the work for less than $60  roughly 30 materials and $30 labor) so that is about $100 to do a bolt mod, cleaning and internal USB conversion for just one keyboard. Seems to be pretty high.

I have sold a few of these M122s completely re-done cleaned and bolt modded USB Converted ect, for $150, but that includes the keyboard and everything (The boards cost me $28 each not including shipping)

Either way you cut it, it seems to be an expensive proposition, and I am not sure that there is enough demand for the service to make it worth while.

Would you be more likely to buy a KB outright for $150ish, or would you be more apt to ship your KB out and get it back refurbished for $100?

Or does the whole project seem to be too much?
-Ezra

[ezrahilyer]

Don't have any useful to add other than to say your blog looks very nice!

thank you It has been under construction for like 6 years, I never seem to be finished with it. Lots of wipe and start over with me. I am bad at sticking with one design.
But thank you just the same :-)

[kalrand]

Would you be more likely to buy a KB outright for $150ish, or would you be more apt to ship your KB out and get it back refurbished for $100?
-Ezra

At those prices, I'm far more likely to buy a new 122 from you than to ship an existing 122 to you to get modded.

Put up a thread in the artisanal services section. I know I would have bought one of your boards if I hadn't been 95% done putting together my franken-M from bits from about 5 different sources.

[fohat.digs]

You cannot get the flat rate game board boxes at brick and mortar post offices, but if you go onto the USPS web site you can have them delivered to your door, free of charge, in boxes of 25 (ie if you order "3" you will get 75).

They go for a flat rate, that is I have had keyboards go from Atlanta, Georgia, to Alaska in under 72 hours for $17 and to Tasmania for the $78 international flat rate (and only $54 to Canada woo-hoo!).

Not the cheapest but at least you can gauge the maximum that it will be.
 

[ezrahilyer]

My 4th M122 has gone up on Fleabay:
this one had no missing rivets!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331323386733

I wrote an Email to the Clickeykeyboards people talking about what I am doing and what I would like to do, because I wanted to know if they had any ideas about how to market the idea, and even though I know I might be some slight competition to them, I just thought they might be interested.

I am also considering maybe doing some of the early mac keyboards that are mechanical. I know they can be restored and converted as well, so I am thinking of getting a few of them to see if they turn out well.

we shall see....

[ezrahilyer]

You cannot get the flat rate game board boxes at brick and mortar post offices, but if you go onto the USPS web site you can have them delivered to your door, free of charge, in boxes of 25 (ie if you order "3" you will get 75).

They go for a flat rate, that is I have had keyboards go from Atlanta, Georgia, to Alaska in under 72 hours for $17 and to Tasmania for the $78 international flat rate (and only $54 to Canada woo-hoo!).

Not the cheapest but at least you can gauge the maximum that it will be.

thank you so much, I had no idea that the flat rate boxes came in that size! thats perfect! Thank you thank you!
I just ordered a box of 25 from USPS Awesome!

[Elrick]

I am also looking for ideas on what types of services might be wanted... I would do Screw-mods, and USB conversions, but what about just general cleaning, and maybe dying the keyboards...
-Ezra

What caught my eye was your suggestion of dying the keyboard casing, which is something I would love to see happen  .  Very few have done it successfully because the plastic casing maybe of a problem to you (have no idea to be truthful) hence very few examples are ever shown here.

If you could provide any colour samples showing what can be applied to any IBM keyboard case, then I'll sign up for one conversion service.

[fohat.digs]

I am also considering maybe doing some of the early mac keyboards that are mechanical.

The early Apple keyboards (M0110 / M0115 / M0116 / M3501) are desirable with solid heavy construction and Alps switches, as well as great thick PBT keycaps.

They can be restored and would probably be prized if you can equip them with internal ADB-to-USB converters.

The biggest problem is that the cases and spacebars are VERY prone to serious yellowing, so you had better bone up on your Retro-briting techniques.

[E TwentyNine]

You cannot get the flat rate game board boxes at brick and mortar post offices, but if you go onto the USPS web site you can have them delivered to your door, free of charge, in boxes of 25 (ie if you order "3" you will get 75).

You can.  Depends on your post office. 

[ezrahilyer]

The early Apple keyboards (M0110 / M0115 / M0116 / M3501) are desirable with solid heavy construction and Alps switches, as well as great thick PBT keycaps.

They can be restored and would probably be prized if you can equip them with internal ADB-to-USB converters.

The biggest problem is that the cases and spacebars are VERY prone to serious yellowing, so you had better bone up on your Retro-briting techniques.

I have been looking at these keyboards on Ebay, and would like to start with one, but other than the M0110 (which seems to be pretty rare and desirable) I am not sure which of the other three I should start with? which one of those three would be the most desirable?

[ezrahilyer]

I have updated my how-to guide again, getting there! check it out and let me know what you think so far...

http://straypoetry.com/ibm-model-m-keyboard/

Also, I have now had to order some more keyboards to convert, I am having a lot of fun doing this. I shipped the last one to Ireland! How cool is that?

Anyway, I am going to do the next 122 key M with an ANSI conversion, and considering bluetooth even.

I have an extra bottom case for a model M that is badly cracked, so I am going to cut it up into 1" squares to test various dyes on it. This way I can make lots of experiments do see what colors stick and by cutting into the plastic afterwards to see how deep they penetrate.

These can also be used as color samples for my future case dyeing operations.
 :-)

[fohat.digs]

I am not sure which of the other three I should start with? which one of those three would be the most desirable?

I like the M0115 but the M3501 is much easier to find and cheaper. the M3501 sometimes has marginally better key caps and I think that the case is better-looking.

[ezrahilyer]

Thank you all for your suggestions and ideas. I am going to get a few of those Apple keyboards next and do conversions on those, but I am ready to start some Model M projects for you geek hackers if you are looking for conversions.

I am ready to start with screw mod conversions.

I drill and then use stainless 18/8 washers, and brass screws that give the plates a very thin profile and make them feel even and tight. I think this is better than nut and bolt mods because you don't have anything on top of the plate, and it is easier to take back apart for cleaning.

I also am doing ANSI conversions on M122 Keyboards.

But the most important is doing internal Teensys and flush mount clean installs of USB/B detachable bulkhead connectors. I can do these on Model Ms and M122 Key Models at the moment, and I would like to ad more models as I get more experience.

How can I go forward? I am thinking of starting a dedicated website to offer my services, but I wanted to have you geek hackers beta access.

I can do a full bolt-mod, case and individual key cleaning, and internal teensy with bulkhead connector for $70 ($30 for materials, and $40 for the labor (takes a little over 2 hours for me to do one completely, the cleaning takes the most time)
(I would charge $8 extra for an ANSI mod on the M122s if desired)


Anyone want to try me out? If you are a moderator or have been a respected member on here for a while, I can ship you a keyboard I have done so you can give your evaluation of the work I do.

I am willing to do a conversion or two for cost of materials alone if you are a member here who will evaluate my work and post your impressions of my work here.

I own the domain: www.luciditystudios.com and I think that could be the home for my keyboard conversions, perhaps I will even get into designing and building custom boards. I do have access to a CNC Mill......

I am still working on my tutorial: http://straypoetry.com/ibm-model-m-keyboard/

This week I intend to do some experiments to see what kinds of dye processes might work for the case, since the keys seem to have been pretty well figured out.

-Ezra

[HoffmanMyster]

I'd be happy to try your services and have you bolt mod one of my boards, but "unfortunately", my Model M was already bolt modded by fohat, and I'm not in the market for another M (okay, I'd totally buy an SSK).  And shipping a board to someone to try, only to ship it back, seems a bit expensive.  I'd say it's probably best to wait until someone has a job that needs to be done and then have them be a "trial" customer (maybe offer a reduced rate until some reviews come in?).

I still think this is a cool service to offer, I just wish the shipping costs didn't rack up so quick.   

[ezrahilyer]

I'd be happy to try your services and have you bolt mod one of my boards, but "unfortunately", my Model M was already bolt modded by fohat, and I'm not in the market for another M (okay, I'd totally buy an SSK).  And shipping a board to someone to try, only to ship it back, seems a bit expensive.  I'd say it's probably best to wait until someone has a job that needs to be done and then have them be a "trial" customer (maybe offer a reduced rate until some reviews come in?).

I still think this is a cool service to offer, I just wish the shipping costs didn't rack up so quick.   

The shipping costs are the single largest obstacle I face. I bought the original set of 4 M122s as a lot and paid $47 to ship them (I think that was high, but that worked out to $11.75 shipping each) add to that the cost for the boards themselves makes it about $40 per board. I then modded them with teensys ($16) and screw and washer converted them, (about $7) and then added a bulkhead USB Connection (about $4), which puts my total investment per board at: $67 then I put them on Ebay for $150 each with free shipping and over the last several weeks, I sold all of them. cost me about $18 to ship each board (except the last one which went to Ireland and I was only $11 out of pocket above what the shipping the buyer paid for), and ebay and paypal take their cut (which is getting very expensive btw, I think its somewhere near $10!) so my total profit is looking to be in the ballpark of: $55 for each board I made. and let me tell you its not quick work. It is pretty time consuming.

I enjoy these old boards, but my time has got to be worth something right?  :-)

If someone has already bought an M from ebay and paid close to what I did they already have about $40 invested and then for me to ask them to ship it to me $18, and then pay for my conversion process $70 and then return shipping $18 their sum total investment is $146

Not really any different than what I have been charging for the boards myself.

I thought about doing a core charge on the boards to encourage people to just buy a board and I could get their old one back in return, but that is still shipping both ways.

maybe I should just go take my money and invest in UPS or FedEx stock.....

-Ezra

[ezrahilyer]

I did my first 2 keyboards in ANSI conversions. 2 M122 keyboards. I put one on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-Model-M-122-Key-ANSI-Keyboard-Bolt-Modded-Internal-Soarers-Converter-USB-/331338256336? and I am going to keep the other one at least for now.

I really prefer the ANSI because I keep missing the left shift key on ISO.

[fohat.digs]

I really prefer the ANSI because I keep missing the left shift key on ISO.

Good luck with these. The left shift is tough, but a 1x Backspace is what kills me.

[kalrand]

I really prefer the ANSI because I keep missing the left shift key on ISO.

Good luck with these. The left shift is tough, but a 1x Backspace is what kills me.

ISO doesn't have a 1x backspace...

I've actually grown to like the vertical enter on ISO, but also absolutely hate the left shift key.

[ezrahilyer]

I have another one up on Ebay, another ANSI modded one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331342384825?

-Ezra