Author Topic: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?  (Read 44279 times)

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Offline davkol

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Re: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?
« Reply #50 on: Thu, 04 August 2016, 08:19:22 »
Properties valued in single-finger or two-finger typing are completely different from what's valued in 10-finger touch typing. For instance, focus on the home row is counterproductive, when typing with one or two fingers (or a stylus or eye stare). Colemak's focus on usage of adjacent fingers (aka rolling) doesn't make sense either, if you don't type with any adjacent fingers.

There are layouts for one-finger/stylus typing—based on Fitts' law—such as OPTI, FITALY or something from IBM. I have yet to see a convincing two-thumb-centric input method though.

However, my recommendation is to go beyond keyboards on surfaces with sliding/gesture support. For example, DreymaR from the Colemak forum advocates the usage of MessagEase.

Offline yellowfour

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Re: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?
« Reply #51 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 06:16:58 »
Properties valued in single-finger or two-finger typing are completely different from what's valued in 10-finger touch typing. For instance, focus on the home row is counterproductive, when typing with one or two fingers (or a stylus or eye stare). Colemak's focus on usage of adjacent fingers (aka rolling) doesn't make sense either, if you don't type with any adjacent fingers.

Rolling makes a lot of sense for 1-2 finger typing because you want to input a continuous string of letters without stopping. Also because it is visual, the proximity of letters makes it easier to find and connect common di- and tri-grams.

Quote
There are layouts for one-finger/stylus typing—based on Fitts' law—such as OPTI, FITALY or something from IBM. I have yet to see a convincing two-thumb-centric input method though.

I have created a slew of layouts for portable devices. Details here and you can try them on Android if you have AnySoftKeyboard app.

OPTI & FITALY are certainly better than copy-pasting popular ten-finger layouts. However after much usage, I conclude that hexagonal design is much better than rectangular. The wrist moves in an arc and the arm points inward toward the center of the body. Thus diagonal keys are smoother to operate and more visually intuitive. Hex layouts include IBM and Keybee, and in my app they are called Hexaliteral and Hex Cluster.

I also experimented with 2-thumb typing, such as the Vertigo and Ragnorak layouts. The main problem with 2-thumb typing is that you're diverting your attention back and forth. I recommend to stick with a good 1-finger layout (I prefer and recommend my Hex Cluster layout), but use both thumbs to type. This way you need to learn only one layout and these 1-finger layouts are actually really good if you want to use both thumbs, because your eyes remained focused. You can roll with either thumb depending on the location of the di- or tri-grams.

Quote
However, my recommendation is to go beyond keyboards on surfaces with sliding/gesture support. For example, DreymaR from the Colemak forum advocates the usage of MessagEase.

The problem with MessagEase is the combination of tapping and swiping demands significant coordination and agility, which not everyone has.

Keybee is another attempt at combining tapping and swiping (twyping?). The idea is solid, but I feel the layout for English is less than optimal. For instance, the H and E are too far apart for the 2nd most common digram in English. Thus typing "THE" requires lifting your finger, when it would be faster to swipe all 3 letters in a row for the most common tri-gram in English.
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 August 2016, 06:23:46 by yellowfour »

Offline bocahgundul

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Re: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?
« Reply #52 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 06:42:40 »
I'm back to colemak again after using dvorak for 3 months and dvorak hurts my pinky finger so much

my venture on keyboard layout : qwerty - colemak - dvorak - colemak

I'm searching for a better colemak is that even possible?

Offline henz

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Re: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?
« Reply #53 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 06:50:23 »
I'm back to colemak again after using dvorak for 3 months and dvorak hurts my pinky finger so much

my venture on keyboard layout : qwerty - colemak - dvorak - colemak

I'm searching for a better colemak is that even possible?

We have fully programmables keyboards, you should create the layout your soul desires :) mine is a modified dvorak

Offline tomboy

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Re: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?
« Reply #54 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 06:54:33 »
I'm back to colemak again after using dvorak for 3 months and dvorak hurts my pinky finger so much

my venture on keyboard layout : qwerty - colemak - dvorak - colemak

I'm searching for a better colemak is that even possible?

You could also try out workman : workmanlayout.com

Offline yellowfour

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Re: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?
« Reply #55 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 19:44:04 »
I'm back to colemak again after using dvorak for 3 months and dvorak hurts my pinky finger so much

my venture on keyboard layout : qwerty - colemak - dvorak - colemak

I'm searching for a better colemak is that even possible?

BEAKL and MTGAP are statistically more optimal (arguably the two best layouts right now). BEAKL stands out from the rest in that it substantially limits usage of the pinky. compare:

In general you can expect no more than 5% of the work done by each pinky under BEAKL. On the hand, other layouts compel 5% to 12% for either pinky.
« Last Edit: Tue, 09 August 2016, 23:10:38 by yellowfour »

Offline bocahgundul

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Re: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?
« Reply #56 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 21:00:39 »
I'm back to colemak again after using dvorak for 3 months and dvorak hurts my pinky finger so much

my venture on keyboard layout : qwerty - colemak - dvorak - colemak

I'm searching for a better colemak is that even possible?

BEAKL and MTGAP are statistically more optimal (arguably the two best layouts right now). BEAKL stands out from the rest in that it substantially limits usage of the pinky. compare:
Show Image

In general you can expect no more than 5% of the work done by each pinky under BEAKL. On the hand, other layouts compel 5% to 12% for either pinky.

I can't see the picture that you linked and where can I read about MTGAP?

Offline yellowfour

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Re: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?
« Reply #57 on: Tue, 09 August 2016, 23:35:48 »

BEAKL and MTGAP are statistically more optimal (arguably the two best layouts right now). BEAKL stands out from the rest in that it substantially limits usage of the pinky. compare:
Show Image

In general you can expect no more than 5% of the work done by each pinky under BEAKL. On the hand, other layouts compel 5% to 12% for either pinky.

I can't see the picture that you linked and where can I read about MTGAP?

Updated image link.


MTGAP evolved from this blog. This is the final iteration as used on patorjk's layout-analyzer:

Code: [Select]
Y  P  O  U  J   K  D  L  C  W
 I  N  E  A  ;   M  H  T  S  R
 Q  Z  <  >  ?   B  F  G  V  X

 y  p  o  u  j   k  d  l  c  w
 i  n  e  a  ,   m  h  t  s  r
 q  z  /  .  :   b  f  g  v  x


Offline bocahgundul

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Re: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?
« Reply #58 on: Wed, 10 August 2016, 09:04:18 »

BEAKL and MTGAP are statistically more optimal (arguably the two best layouts right now). BEAKL stands out from the rest in that it substantially limits usage of the pinky. compare:
Show Image

In general you can expect no more than 5% of the work done by each pinky under BEAKL. On the hand, other layouts compel 5% to 12% for either pinky.

I can't see the picture that you linked and where can I read about MTGAP?

Updated image link.


MTGAP evolved from this blog. This is the final iteration as used on patorjk's layout-analyzer:

Code: [Select]
Y  P  O  U  J   K  D  L  C  W
 I  N  E  A  ;   M  H  T  S  R
 Q  Z  <  >  ?   B  F  G  V  X

 y  p  o  u  j   k  d  l  c  w
 i  n  e  a  ,   m  h  t  s  r
 q  z  /  .  :   b  f  g  v  x



And what's the differences between the BEAKL and MTGAP? other than that BEAKL use pinky finger less than MTGAP

Offline yellowfour

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Re: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?
« Reply #59 on: Fri, 12 August 2016, 02:39:13 »
And what's the differences between the BEAKL and MTGAP? other than that BEAKL use pinky finger less than MTGAP

BEAKL and MTGAP were developed by different people using different programs. MTGAP by Michael ****ens using its namesake optimizer. BEAKL by Xay Voong (me) using the AdNW optimizer. MTGAP still follows the belief that the home pinky is one of the best keys. On the contrary, BEAKL is the first (?) family* of layouts based on the radical hypothesis that pinkies usage should be minimized to the lowest possible because they're weak, slow, and easily fatigued. Even if that means under-utilizing the home pinky keys. In fact I advise against putting any of ETAIONSR under the home pinkies so they don't get overworked. Surprisingly BEAKL still outperforms vast majority of layouts in analyzers that favor more common letters on the home row.

BTW here is the latest version of BEAKL that I recommend:

Code: [Select]
BEAKL 4.0

jyo.k gcmnz
hieau dstrp
q"',x wflbv

JYO:K GCMNZ
HIEAU DSTRP
Q(;)X WFLBV

* I'm also experimenting with putting up to three letters on the thumb cluster to relieve the other fingers. Unfortunately, I have yet to find a good analyzer that fairly rates the thumb cluster.



Offline stevep

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Re: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?
« Reply #60 on: Wed, 17 August 2016, 07:34:29 »
Surprisingly BEAKL still outperforms vast majority of layouts in analyzers that favor more common letters on the home row.

Using my keyboard analyzer, I tested your BEAKL 4.0 layout, and found it comes out scoring better than Dvorak, but slightly worse than Colemak.

Your layout might be useful for those who are strongly against pinky use, but I think the home row pinkies are not that bad. I also think you are underestimating how comfortable the Qwerty C and M keys are, they are of almost home row quality if you use your index fingers for them.



Offline PieterGen

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Re: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?
« Reply #61 on: Tue, 23 August 2016, 09:53:07 »
Gentlemen, I applaud all your work  :D

Yellowfour: great to come up with specialized layouts for phones/ touch screens  :thumb:
SteveP: and you come up with your own optimizer  :thumb:  If I ever find the time I will sure test it out !

I see clear AdnW-streaks in yellowfour's Beakl layout. Now wonder, given the use of the AdnW optimizer. Interestingly, the AdnW-optimizer ranks AdnW 'proper' better than Dvorak but slightly behind Colemak, for English text. And this is exactly what stevep finds for Beakl, using his own optimizer  :cool:

Regarding the pinky use, this depends per person. Also, the fingers are trainable, and even pinkies will get stronger and more dexterious. As anyone who plays a musical instrument can tell (piano, guitar, bass etc.).

@bocahgundul: you are not the only one to leave Dvorak because of its pinky use. OTOH, I don't quite get this. Colemak has only slightly less pinky use, right? Can you explain please?

Offline yellowfour

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Re: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?
« Reply #62 on: Tue, 23 August 2016, 16:12:15 »
the issue of the pinky isn't training muscles and reflexes. even if you train them equally as the other fingers, the pinkies will still be the slowest and most cumbersome.

the real vulnerability with the pinkies are the weak joints that are easily bent, causing pain. notice the pinkies are curved inward relative to the other fingers. this means while the big fingers hit the keys straight on, the pinkies hit the keys at an angle that can easily disjoin the pinky joints, causing great pain. this is exacerbated by the common keys, including Enter and Backpsace, on the standard keyboard, when hit with force and repetition by the right pinky.

i know because it personally happened to me. my pinky has mostly recovered after i quit my IT job and use only Kinesis keyboard at home. Kinesis naturally, smartly puts the Enter and Backspace on the thumb cluster. I also moved the Shift keys to the thumb cluster. Holding down a key with pinky is just really poor ergonomics.

You're right that Colemak is almost as bad as Dvorak when it comes to pinky usage, and thus impacts their comfort. Qwerty actually has light load for the right pinky, which may be slight boon for typing speed.

Quote
see clear AdnW-streaks in yellowfour's Beakl layout. Now wonder, given the use of the AdnW optimizer. Interestingly, the AdnW-optimizer ranks AdnW 'proper' better than Dvorak but slightly behind Colemak, for English text. And this is exactly what stevep finds for Beakl, using his own optimizer

Things like distance and effort scores are mostly arbitrary per the designer/coder of the optimizer and analyzer, so I don't really put much stock in those scores. There are other factors that are less arbitrary (and perhaps even more directly affects speed and comfort) which AdnW measures. In particular how AdnW gives insight to bigrams and trigrams. Such as ratio of inward/outward rolls, seesaws, hand alternations.

Quote
underestimating how comfortable the Qwerty C and M keys are, they are of almost home row quality if you use your index fingers for them.

I've always thought these are good ergonomic keys. The problem is they aren't great for optimizing rolls when many of the good keys are located at the home and top rows (and rightly so.)

Offline stevep

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Re: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?
« Reply #63 on: Wed, 24 August 2016, 11:50:36 »
For those who want to minimize right pinky use, I propose the following very simple modification to Colemak... Swap O with U:

Q W F P G J L O Y ;
A R S T D H N E I U
Z X C V B K M , . /

EO and EU are both fairly rare bigrams so this would not have a serious impact on same finger ratio.

Personally I don't think this change is really justified, but for those who prefer the middle-finger-top-row key over the right-pinky-home-key, it would be a good solution, and would produce a similar level of right pinky use to BEAKL.

Quote
underestimating how comfortable the Qwerty C and M keys are, they are of almost home row quality if you use your index fingers for them.

I've always thought these are good ergonomic keys. The problem is they aren't great for optimizing rolls when many of the good keys are located at the home and top rows (and rightly so.)

Well, in Colemak Mod-DH, then these two keys become D and H. The H in particular is very good for two-finger rolls in this position, since HE is such a common bigram.  In fact many of common bigrams involving D or H become rather pleasant rolls.

« Last Edit: Wed, 24 August 2016, 12:06:08 by stevep »

Offline WestMountain

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Re: Are Colemak, Dvorak is better than Qwerty?
« Reply #64 on: Thu, 07 July 2022, 02:02:32 »
I'm back to colemak again after using dvorak for 3 months and dvorak hurts my pinky finger so much

my venture on keyboard layout : qwerty - colemak - dvorak - colemak

I'm searching for a better colemak is that even possible?

BEAKL and MTGAP are statistically more optimal (arguably the two best layouts right now). BEAKL stands out from the rest in that it substantially limits usage of the pinky. compare:
Show Image

In general you can expect no more than 5% of the work done by each pinky under BEAKL. On the hand, other layouts compel 5% to 12% for either pinky.

QWERTY has it done right: very low pinkies usage