[IC] Alps Party 3-60(%)

[StormyMonday]

Oops, I didn't realize I was supposed to express interest in switches. 

I'm interested in acquiring some switches somehow.  Any idea what quantities we'd need to achieve some price break?  If need be, I can just place an order straight from Matias.

I missed the switch preference, too. Since this board will be a mobile design, I'll want to keep a low profile with the switch selection, so that I don't attract undue attention to myself. Therefore, I'll be using Matias Quiet Clicks.

I'll probably source the switches from mechanicalkeyboards.com, unless I can find a GB.

[tominabox1]

Update -

At least one successful has been produced.  Can confirm that there will be a raffle for at least one in the official group buy.

Thanks. Thats a lot cheaper than I had expected.  Definitely want in on this.  Im trying to source a donor board but the guy wants to sell me a whole computer...

[xWintermute]

Interested in an assembled pcb, the aek2 plate, and some Matias Linears!

[ziberzaba]

I am very interested in an assembled PCB with the AEKII plate and quiet click switches.

[tominabox1]

Any updates on this possible buy?  I'm dying to tear up this board lol

[BlueNalgene]

Any updates on this possible buy?  I'm dying to tear up this board lol

No updates yet.  Still working on final tweaks on the plate.  I'm aiming for this weekend though.

[njbair]

Any updates on this possible buy?  I'm dying to tear up this board lol

No updates yet.  Still working on final tweaks on the plate.  I'm aiming for this weekend though.

Speaking of the plate, I'm still eager to learn if you've found a vendor that will do multiple layout options, and if so what our layout options will be.

[tominabox1]

Any updates on this possible buy?  I'm dying to tear up this board lol

No updates yet.  Still working on final tweaks on the plate.  I'm aiming for this weekend though.

Awesome.  The plate is the stickler for me.  I really don't want to cut the one up in this board if I can help it.  At least with a plate I can always put her back together!

[BlueNalgene]

Any updates on this possible buy?  I'm dying to tear up this board lol

No updates yet.  Still working on final tweaks on the plate.  I'm aiming for this weekend though.

Speaking of the plate, I'm still eager to learn if you've found a vendor that will do multiple layout options, and if so what our layout options will be.

Multiple layouts can happen with some places.  Right now, there are two options.  A local place can do laser cut plates at a good price, and BigBlueSaw can do water cut plates at a less good price.  I'm leaning toward the local one, since it would be cheaper to start with, and there would be no cost to ship the plates to me either.  The cost difference of my rough quotes was about $15.  Both of these places will do the combined order for multiple layouts.  I have made plate designs for the AEKII, AT101, AT101W, and AT102W layouts.  JDCarpe has kindly agreed to check my work and give me advice on stabilizers.

Why am I even waffling on this if the cost is so much different?  Waterjet looks prettier.  Laser cutting causes/suffers from something known as the heat affected zone.  This zone can deform and melt during the cutting process.  Waterjet does not have this issue since it is an abrasive cutting process.  Waterjet cut steel edge will look like a smooth dull face, with some burrs on one side.  A laser cut steel edge can start to develop moderate burrs on both sides of the cut edge based on the speed and cooling method of the laser.  See here for some comparison shots of the speed effect on the edge.  A comparison of waterjet vs laser edge can be seen on this site.  If we want to go with a really nice edge from the water cut, we can add an additional $5 per unit for a basic finish.

If the big difference is edge effects, what do we want?  I'm not sure of the edge quality of the laser cutter I got the quote from.  I have sent them an email tonight asking for some info on this, and how much finishing work they do, but I don't expect a response until tomorrow. 

What's more: does it even matter?  As thin of steel as we are going to be using, the HAZ area may contribute so little to the burrs that it isn't an issue. 

This is an IC, so input is welcome on this area.  However, if the laser cut guy can show me a sexy edge from things they have done in the past, I won't be above making an executive decision.


Then there is the powder coat finish.  Nubbs suggested it originally, and other members of the IC have expressed interest in it.  BigBlueSaw does not offer it.  My local place doesn't offer it, but they can send it to the shop down the street that does it.  I'm still waiting for a quote on that.

edit: fixed link

[cheddarbek]

Doubly hoping this buy comes together. I was replacing some of my matias switches for some SKCMs on my round 2 pcb. Pretty sure I have irrevocably damaged the left shift hole on this pcb. *sigh*

[njbair]

Any updates on this possible buy?  I'm dying to tear up this board lol

No updates yet.  Still working on final tweaks on the plate.  I'm aiming for this weekend though.

Speaking of the plate, I'm still eager to learn if you've found a vendor that will do multiple layout options, and if so what our layout options will be.

Multiple layouts can happen with some places.  Right now, there are two options.  A local place can do laser cut plates at a good price, and BigBlueSaw can do water cut plates at a less good price.  I'm leaning toward the local one, since it would be cheaper to start with, and there would be no cost to ship the plates to me either.  The cost difference of my rough quotes was about $15.  Both of these places will do the combined order for multiple layouts.  I have made plate designs for the AEKII, AT101, AT101W, and AT102W layouts.  JDCarpe has kindly agreed to check my work and give me advice on stabilizers.

Why am I even waffling on this if the cost is so much different?  Waterjet looks prettier.  Laser cutting causes/suffers from something known as the heat affected zone.  This zone can deform and melt during the cutting process.  Waterjet does not have this issue since it is an abrasive cutting process.  Waterjet cut steel edge will look like a smooth dull face, with some burrs on one side.  A laser cut steel edge can start to develop moderate burrs on both sides of the cut edge based on the speed and cooling method of the laser.  See here for some comparison shots of the speed effect on the edge.  A comparison of waterjet vs laser edge can be seen on this site.  If we want to go with a really nice edge from the water cut, we can add an additional $5 per unit for a basic finish.

If the big difference is edge effects, what do we want?  I'm not sure of the edge quality of the laser cutter I got the quote from.  I have sent them an email tonight asking for some info on this, and how much finishing work they do, but I don't expect a response until tomorrow. 

What's more: does it even matter?  As thin of steel as we are going to be using, the HAZ area may contribute so little to the burrs that it isn't an issue. 

This is an IC, so input is welcome on this area.  However, if the laser cut guy can show me a sexy edge from things they have done in the past, I won't be above making an executive decision.


Then there is the powder coat finish.  Nubbs suggested it originally, and other members of the IC have expressed interest in it.  BigBlueSaw does not offer it.  My local place doesn't offer it, but they can send it to the shop down the street that does it.  I'm still waiting for a quote on that.

edit: fixed link

Nubbinator recently found out just how bad laser cutting can look, on his AEKII plate buy. In the end he decided to pay extra to have them refinished to remove the burrs and discoloration.

But at $15 extra per plate, plus $5 for deburring, I'd rather have an uglier plate and get it powder-coated.

[BlueNalgene]

Any updates on this possible buy?  I'm dying to tear up this board lol

No updates yet.  Still working on final tweaks on the plate.  I'm aiming for this weekend though.

Speaking of the plate, I'm still eager to learn if you've found a vendor that will do multiple layout options, and if so what our layout options will be.

Multiple layouts can happen with some places.  Right now, there are two options.  A local place can do laser cut plates at a good price, and BigBlueSaw can do water cut plates at a less good price.  I'm leaning toward the local one, since it would be cheaper to start with, and there would be no cost to ship the plates to me either.  The cost difference of my rough quotes was about $15.  Both of these places will do the combined order for multiple layouts.  I have made plate designs for the AEKII, AT101, AT101W, and AT102W layouts.  JDCarpe has kindly agreed to check my work and give me advice on stabilizers.

Why am I even waffling on this if the cost is so much different?  Waterjet looks prettier.  Laser cutting causes/suffers from something known as the heat affected zone.  This zone can deform and melt during the cutting process.  Waterjet does not have this issue since it is an abrasive cutting process.  Waterjet cut steel edge will look like a smooth dull face, with some burrs on one side.  A laser cut steel edge can start to develop moderate burrs on both sides of the cut edge based on the speed and cooling method of the laser.  See here for some comparison shots of the speed effect on the edge.  A comparison of waterjet vs laser edge can be seen on this site.  If we want to go with a really nice edge from the water cut, we can add an additional $5 per unit for a basic finish.

If the big difference is edge effects, what do we want?  I'm not sure of the edge quality of the laser cutter I got the quote from.  I have sent them an email tonight asking for some info on this, and how much finishing work they do, but I don't expect a response until tomorrow. 

What's more: does it even matter?  As thin of steel as we are going to be using, the HAZ area may contribute so little to the burrs that it isn't an issue. 

This is an IC, so input is welcome on this area.  However, if the laser cut guy can show me a sexy edge from things they have done in the past, I won't be above making an executive decision.


Then there is the powder coat finish.  Nubbs suggested it originally, and other members of the IC have expressed interest in it.  BigBlueSaw does not offer it.  My local place doesn't offer it, but they can send it to the shop down the street that does it.  I'm still waiting for a quote on that.

edit: fixed link

Nubbinator recently found out just how bad laser cutting can look, on his AEKII plate buy. In the end he decided to pay extra to have them refinished to remove the burrs and discoloration.

But at $15 extra per plate, plus $5 for deburring, I'd rather have an uglier plate and get it powder-coated.

My thoughts exactly. 

But the place I'm talking to may do the deburring in house.  So... fingers crossed!

[tominabox1]

How obvious is the edge finish when you have the thing all built up?  I feel like it wouldnt be much of a difference.  If its noticeable, I guess the nicer finish is worth it.

[njbair]

Appearance is a potential issue, but I would be more concerned about a burr on the bottom side of the plate interfering with the retention leafs on the sides of the switches.

[tominabox1]

Appearance is a potential issue, but I would be more concerned about a burr on the bottom side of the plate interfering with the retention leafs on the sides of the switches.

Ah very good point.

[BlueNalgene]

From the laser cutter:
 
Edge quality will be excellent and easily comparable to water jet, we cut yearly more than 100,000 lbs of 20,18 and 16 GA SS and we nearly never deburr. The only quality advantages to water jet on your part would be if tolerance requirement was less than +/-.005 and there is a potential flatness advantage due to the number of holes in a small area.

[njbair]

Sounds like laser is a no-brainer to me.

[CPTBadAss]

Do laser cutting and make everyone deburr their own plate. It's fun and really makes you feel like you're doing DIY when you're staring at a plate with a file and sandpaper like DON'T YOU **** WITH ME THIS TIME. Or maybe that's just me...

[njbair]

Do laser cutting and make everyone deburr their own plate. It's fun and really makes you feel like you're doing DIY when you're staring at a plate with a file and sandpaper like DON'T YOU **** WITH ME THIS TIME. Or maybe that's just me...

We'll have to hold a group buy for gauze and bandages.

[jdcarpe]

Tolerance should be as close to +/- 0.001" as possible. But I've always had great plates made by laser cutting. I've never had a plate cut by water jet, and I have a LOT of custom plates.

[njbair]

Tolerance should be as close to +/- 0.001" as possible. But I've always had great plates made by laser cutting. I've never had a plate cut by water jet, and I have a LOT of custom plates.

+/- .001 seems like way overkill for a plate. De-facto standard for non-moving parts is usually +/- .005 for a dimension with three decimal places.

[jdcarpe]

Tolerance should be as close to +/- 0.001" as possible. But I've always had great plates made by laser cutting. I've never had a plate cut by water jet, and I have a LOT of custom plates.

+/- .001 seems like way overkill for a plate. De-facto standard for non-moving parts is usually +/- .005 for a dimension with three decimal places.

The Cherry spec sheet states the MX hole dimension as 0.551 +/- 0.002 inches.

http://cherrycorp.com/product/mx-series/

[CommonCurt]

Any updates on this possible buy?  I'm dying to tear up this board lol

No updates yet.  Still working on final tweaks on the plate.  I'm aiming for this weekend though.

Speaking of the plate, I'm still eager to learn if you've found a vendor that will do multiple layout options, and if so what our layout options will be.

Multiple layouts can happen with some places.  Right now, there are two options.  A local place can do laser cut plates at a good price, and BigBlueSaw can do water cut plates at a less good price.  I'm leaning toward the local one, since it would be cheaper to start with, and there would be no cost to ship the plates to me either.  The cost difference of my rough quotes was about $15.  Both of these places will do the combined order for multiple layouts.  I have made plate designs for the AEKII, AT101, AT101W, and AT102W layouts.  JDCarpe has kindly agreed to check my work and give me advice on stabilizers.

I'm okay with laser .       Plus that way people will have their choice between multiple layouts.

[BlueNalgene]

Powder Coat discussion time

So I just got off the phone with the powder coating shop near me.  He gave me a rough quote for the service and an idea of what they have.  According to the guy I spoke with, they have "all sorts" of colors and "a buncha" different textures.  There is no MOQ, but each color change costs.

The pricing scheme:

$25 for each color change
~$20 per plate
Candy coating and clear coat costs extra.

The color and texture:

What do we as a group want?  Do we want something bold and colorful, like a glossy BlueNalgene blue? Do we want something sedate that would look good with older caps like a beige and gray alps mountaintop mock rock?  Do we want some badass metal black and silver hammertone?  Suggestions are welcome.

So if you intend to get the clearcoat option, please give me some input.

[CPTBadAss]

Barbie Pink with a glossy clear coat.
Jdcarpurple.

[BlueNalgene]

Barbie Pink with a glossy clear coat.
Jdcarpurple.

Pink? Purple? How would that look good with used caps?  There are no Alps Miami sets lying around.  Think man!  It has to match all of the somber gray with blue legends that Alps users gravitate towards.

[CPTBadAss]

Right. The fun plate colors will give a pop to otherwise boring salvaged Alps keycaps. Think phorphorglow plates on his Ms.

* CPTBadAss dreams of fun colors on Alps keycap sets

[BlueNalgene]

Right. The fun plate colors will give a pop to otherwise boring salvaged Alps keycaps. Think phorphorglow plates on his Ms.

Bah! You and your completely legitimate ideas about color subtlety. 

[StormyMonday]

Powder Coat discussion time

So I just got off the phone with the powder coating shop near me.  He gave me a rough quote for the service and an idea of what they have.  According to the guy I spoke with, they have "all sorts" of colors and "a buncha" different textures.  There is no MOQ, but each color change costs.

The pricing scheme:

$25 for each color change
~$20 per plate
Candy coating and clear coat costs extra.

The color and texture:

What do we as a group want?  Do we want something bold and colorful, like a glossy BlueNalgene blue? Do we want something sedate that would look good with older caps like a beige and gray alps mountaintop mock rock?  Do we want some badass metal black and silver hammertone?  Suggestions are welcome.

So if you intend to get the clearcoat option, please give me some input.

Powder coat is great stuff, but not necessarily in a project with tight tolerances. I've seen several projects where the powder film applied was well over 1mm thick and manually sanding/filing powder coat is a massive pain in the a$$. Masking off all of the switch mounting holes would be very tedious, indeed. If on the other hand, the powder is thinly applied, there is a risk that mild steel components will corrode beneath the powder (it happened to me).

I would humbly suggest that Cerakote is a better product for this application and it is available in a multitude of colors..

[tominabox1]

I'd rather have bare metal

[xWintermute]

+1

[StormyMonday]

I'd rather have bare metal

Brushed stainless would look superb!

Anyone not happy with this could always powder coat, Cerakote, spray paint, finger paint, or smear mashed potatoes on it, as the mood strikes them. 

[CPTBadAss]

Extreme GH Challenge: Finger paint a plate that isn't deburred. Last person to bleed wins.

[vivalarevolución]

Right. The fun plate colors will give a pop to otherwise boring salvaged Alps keycaps. Think phorphorglow plates on his Ms.

* CPTBadAss dreams of fun colors on Alps keycap sets

Phosphorglow progressed to the point that he was having plastic overlays that fit right over the barrels and he didn't have to mess with painting at all.  Get those done so they can fit over Alps switches, and that would be fun.

EDIT:  Also have doing a small run of plates for the XTant, I think it's best just to do plates in stainless steel or aluminum that doesn't require anything for protection, as most people are not going to mess with their plates.  Just the hardcore geeks do that sort of thing.

[vivalarevolución]

Also, I think it's time for an Alps/Matias subforum so I don't have search for this stuff anymore.

[njbair]

Powder Coat discussion time

So I just got off the phone with the powder coating shop near me.  He gave me a rough quote for the service and an idea of what they have.  According to the guy I spoke with, they have "all sorts" of colors and "a buncha" different textures.  There is no MOQ, but each color change costs.

The pricing scheme:

$25 for each color change
~$20 per plate
Candy coating and clear coat costs extra.

The color and texture:

What do we as a group want?  Do we want something bold and colorful, like a glossy BlueNalgene blue? Do we want something sedate that would look good with older caps like a beige and gray alps mountaintop mock rock?  Do we want some badass metal black and silver hammertone?  Suggestions are welcome.

So if you intend to get the clearcoat option, please give me some input.

Powder coat is great stuff, but not necessarily in a project with tight tolerances. I've seen several projects where the powder film applied was well over 1mm thick and manually sanding/filing powder coat is a massive pain in the a$$. Masking off all of the switch mounting holes would be very tedious, indeed. If on the other hand, the powder is thinly applied, there is a risk that mild steel components will corrode beneath the powder (it happened to me).

I would humbly suggest that Cerakote is a better product for this application and it is available in a multitude of colors..

This is SS not mild steel. So thin powder coat will be fine.

[digi]

Expressing interest x10, after reading more than I usually do it appears that this is an IC for 2 IC's which we're HOPING lead to GB's? Ok, got it!

Dell ansi plate btw, go away Mac layout plebs. <3

+1

[BlueNalgene]

Expressing interest x10, after reading more than I usually do it appears that this is an IC for 2 IC's which we're HOPING lead to GB's? Ok, got it!

Dell ansi plate btw, go away Mac layout plebs. <3

+1

Wrong.  It's an IC for a single catch-all GB with a bunch of different things.  It is large and unwieldy because I have a way of biting off more than I can chew.

[cheddarbek]

I have faith in you bluenalgene. We more or less did a single gb before between nubbs plate, hasu's round 2 and the AEKII donor buys - they all happened basically at once.

I'm sure this can be pulled of as well.

[BlueNalgene]

I have faith in you bluenalgene. We more or less did a single gb before between nubbs plate, hasu's round 2 and the AEKII donor buys - they all happened basically at once.

I'm sure this can be pulled of as well.

Oh it WILL be pulled off.  I have already decided to do it, so it WILL be done and done well.  But  doing this, writing a dissertation, taking a class, managing a club's finances, working, possibly suffering from scurvy, and working on secret projects for zine - it sort of adds up.

[cheddarbek]

Are you saying you want to sleep from time to time?

There is no sleep. Board is life.

Seriously, thanks for doing this!

[sth]

$20 PER plate just for color seems outlandishly high -- is that accurate? or did I misunderstand the charges?

[Jersern]

I wonder if anodising can be an option. Or just raw if the powder coating is a bit too expensive. Raw is also pretty nice.

[tofgerl]

Why not keep powder coating as an option and allow just raw plates as well? There could be a MOQ per color on the coats, and if no colors pass the MOQ then the people have spoken.
I'd love a deep dark red plate for instance, and there is no way to get that with anodization afaik.

[njbair]

I wonder if anodising can be an option. Or just raw if the powder coating is a bit too expensive. Raw is also pretty nice.

Anodizing is for aluminum, not stainless. And colors will be completely optional since there's no MOQ.

[njbair]

Why not keep powder coating as an option and allow just raw plates as well? There could be a MOQ per color on the coats, and if no colors pass the MOQ then the people have spoken.
I'd love a deep dark red plate for instance, and there is no way to get that with anodization afaik.

No need to impose MOQs for colors. If someone is willing to pay $50 for a custom color, they should be allowed.

[tominabox1]

Would it be possible to build the keybaord without the PCB?  I already have a teensy so I could wire it up if the plate supported it.

[sth]

Would it be possible to build the keybaord without the PCB?  I already have a teensy so I could wire it up if the plate supported it.

yes it would be possible, you can use TMK (or other firmwares, but TMK has been done with handwired boards many times) on Teensy.

[jdcarpe]

Would it be possible to build the keybaord without the PCB?  I already have a teensy so I could wire it up if the plate supported it.

Take a look at some of the awesome work done by new-ish member Yoe, as example:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69841.0

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74161.0

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73760.0

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72577.0

https://instagram.com/trasselfrisyr/

[tominabox1]

Would it be possible to build the keybaord without the PCB?  I already have a teensy so I could wire it up if the plate supported it.

Take a look at some of the awesome work done by new-ish member Yoe, as example:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=69841.0

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=74161.0

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=73760.0

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72577.0

https://instagram.com/trasselfrisyr/

Ah ok I had seen those before but I wasn't sure he was using your plates or not. I know he cuts down the stock plates a lot.  Thanks!