[IC] "Troubled Minds" - a Joker/Eva01 inspired set - Up on Massdrop!

[Elrick]

Another option (although it could be controversial) is to use Row 3 Alt keys and Row 4 for the other bottom row mods, but that limits the 1.25x novelty cap usage a bit.

I think the poll is a good idea.

A Poll is the quickest way of finding out what the majority wants in their profile pick.  After all what's the point of making a key-set when no one wants that profile in the first place  .

Geekhack is where democracy triumphs.........

[keyboardia1]

Quick question: Any chance of adding the ISO enter key and left shift key to the international set? I love the UK but subsidizing british keysets gets pretty costly ...

[thesiscamper]

Quick question: Any chance of adding the ISO enter key and left shift key to the international set? I love the UK but subsidizing british keysets gets pretty costly ...

If it makes more sense then yes we can add those, at the moment this is copied from the Jukebox template.

Does the international set use the ISO enter and left shift key exclusively? Would you recommend how Carbon bundled them, or the way MiTo has a separate child for ISO in Sci-Fi?

[keyboardia1]

Quick question: Any chance of adding the ISO enter key and left shift key to the international set? I love the UK but subsidizing british keysets gets pretty costly ...

If it makes more sense then yes we can add those, at the moment this is copied from the Jukebox template.

Does the international set use the ISO enter and left shift key exclusively? Would you recommend how Carbon bundled them, or the way MiTo has a separate child for ISO in Sci-Fi?

The way it was handled in the Sci-Fi set seems to be the fairest option, as in: nobody has to pay for keys they wont use.
On the other hand if there is a MOQ for the individual kits it could become a problem. If that's the case i'd argue that the carbon way would be better.

The problem with the curent setup: Unless you want an english ISO keyset you have to buy both the ISO kit and the international kit, even though you only really need two keys from the ISO kit. However, i assume that more people will want the UK ISO kit than the international kit. So it might be a good thing to offer both (depending on MOQs), so you wont piss off anyone who "just" wants an english-only ISO keyset.

But I'm certainly interested what other europeans have to say about this.

[thesiscamper]

Quick question: Any chance of adding the ISO enter key and left shift key to the international set? I love the UK but subsidizing british keysets gets pretty costly ...

If it makes more sense then yes we can add those, at the moment this is copied from the Jukebox template.

Does the international set use the ISO enter and left shift key exclusively? Would you recommend how Carbon bundled them, or the way MiTo has a separate child for ISO in Sci-Fi?

The way it was handled in the Sci-Fi set seems to be the fairest option, as in: nobody has to pay for keys they wont use.
On the other hand if there is a MOQ for the individual kits it could become a problem. If that's the case i'd argue that the carbon way would be better.

The problem with the curent setup: Unless you want an english ISO keyset you have to buy both the ISO kit and the international kit, even though you only really need two keys from the ISO kit. However, i assume that more people will want the UK ISO kit than the international kit. So it might be a good thing to offer both (depending on MOQs), so you wont piss off anyone who "just" wants an english-only ISO keyset.

But I'm certainly interested what other europeans have to say about this.

Yeah maybe an Iso enter and left shift for both UK and International kits? It woud be great if other Europeans share their thoughts

[My_Thoughts]

The ISO/Euro problem is hard to solve.  I thought modern selectric did an very interesting option on ISO and other deals but most ended up not tipping.
At this stage I'm not really sure what is the best option to suggest.  The real need is to increase the number of euro people knowing about the deals but I have no idea how to go about getting that to happen, and then maybe one day there might be a solid plan that works for each group buy. 

[thesiscamper]

The ISO/Euro problem is hard to solve.  I thought modern selectric did an very interesting option on ISO and other deals but most ended up not tipping.
At this stage I'm not really sure what is the best option to suggest.  The real need is to increase the number of euro people knowing about the deals but I have no idea how to go about getting that to happen, and then maybe one day there might be a solid plan that works for each group buy.

One thing I'd like to avoid that keyboardia1 pointed out, is people buying keys they don't really need. We'll try to figure that out as we go, thanks!

[Oobly]

It's a tough one..

I like having the Enter and Shift in the "base" ISO kit only (the UK version) and not including them in the International kit. That way you do have to buy both to get say a Finnish ISO layout covered, but if the International doesn't tip you at least have the fallback option of having all the keys you need to cover your ISO board, albeit with UK legends. It's expensive for those who want the full ISO layout for their region, but those who really want it will pay. I don't see a better solution, since separate kits per region probably won't meet MOQ, and if you have Enter and Shift in both kits and someone orders just the international kit and it doesn't hit MOQ, they're stuck with an ANSI set to put on an ISO board...

Having the UK caps is good for resale, too, so most European buyers won't mind having to get the extra UK caps just to have the Enter and Shift (it's only a few dollars extra - $4 or so -  and you increase the resale options).

For instance, in the Retro SA buy I ordered both the "base" ISO and International kits. Fortunately they both hit MOQ and were produced, but I'd still have been happy with having the UK legends in case it didn't. As it is, I now have a set I can resell (but I won't I like it too much) to anyone in EU (incl. UK) or the States and it'll have the correct legends.

I actually mostly use ANSI layout now, though, and a fair number of other EU keyboard enthusiasts do the same if they're interested in aftermarket caps since it gives so many more options and it's rare that International kits hit their MOQ and many sets don't even have the International kit (like Danger Zone, for instance).

TLDR: Having a "base" ISO kit in UK legends and a bigger "international" kit with the special legends per region, but no Enter or Shift is the best option, IMHO.

Either that or separate kits like in Sci-Fi, but it's a big risk. For those who order a kit that doesn't hit MOQ they'd have an ISO Enter and Shift (since they're their own kit), but would have 2 empty spots on their board and wrong legends on others. If you could somehow guarantee MOQ on all language packs then that would be nice from a buyer's perspective, but a nightmare from a GB organiser's perspective. Of course this could also be handled by a custom GB system where people can choose fallback options, such as: "If this kit doesn't tip, would you like the UK kit added to your order?", but you'd have to run the whole GB yourself then (traditional-style, with sorting, packing and mailing the sets yourself), as I don't think Massdrop, PMK or any other GB system has an option like that.

[thesiscamper]

It's a tough one..

I like having the Enter and Shift in the "base" ISO kit only (the UK version) and not including them in the International kit. That way you do have to buy both to get say a Finnish ISO layout covered, but if the International doesn't tip you at least have the fallback option of having all the keys you need to cover your ISO board, albeit with UK legends. It's expensive for those who want the full ISO layout for their region, but those who really want it will pay. I don't see a better solution, since separate kits per region probably won't meet MOQ, and if you have Enter and Shift in both kits and someone orders just the international kit and it doesn't hit MOQ, they're stuck with an ANSI set to put on an ISO board...

Having the UK caps is good for resale, too, so most European buyers won't mind having to get the extra UK caps just to have the Enter and Shift (it's only a few dollars extra - $4 or so -  and you increase the resale options).

For instance, in the Retro SA buy I ordered both the "base" ISO and International kits. Fortunately they both hit MOQ and were produced, but I'd still have been happy with having the UK legends in case it didn't. As it is, I now have a set I can resell (but I won't I like it too much) to anyone in EU (incl. UK) or the States and it'll have the correct legends.

I actually mostly use ANSI layout now, though, and a fair number of other EU keyboard enthusiasts do the same if they're interested in aftermarket caps since it gives so many more options and it's rare that International kits hit their MOQ and many sets don't even have the International kit (like Danger Zone, for instance).

TLDR: Having a "base" ISO kit in UK legends and a bigger "international" kit with the special legends per region, but no Enter or Shift is the best option, IMHO.

Either that or separate kits like in Sci-Fi, but it's a big risk. For those who order a kit that doesn't hit MOQ they'd have an ISO Enter and Shift (since they're their own kit), but would have 2 empty spots on their board and wrong legends on others. If you could somehow guarantee MOQ on all language packs then that would be nice from a buyer's perspective, but a nightmare from a GB organiser's perspective. Of course this could also be handled by a custom GB system where people can choose fallback options, such as: "If this kit doesn't tip, would you like the UK kit added to your order?", but you'd have to run the whole GB yourself then (traditional-style, with sorting, packing and mailing the sets yourself), as I don't think Massdrop, PMK or any other GB system has an option like that.

Thank you again for making it more understandable for us, having a few keys you won't use is so much better than missing some keys. It's very unlikely that I will be organizing a group buy myself, so I guess that excludes the "fallback" option. If anyone else has any idea please feel free to share, thanks!

[thesiscamper]

Great news guys! Melissa has confirmed that the new HAHA key should work, there's a very small distance from the edge but the main look will stay the same. I've attached an image for the design, the red box is the keycap itself, the green box is the "edge" of the top face where legends go, the blue box is the "first wall" of the shot where legends without islands can start, and the yellow box is where islands can be injected.



Also, at the moment 1-1-2-3-4-4 has an overwhelming lead in the poll. Thanks a lot for participating guys, now I just need to figure out how to move to the next phase

[swimmingbird]

Great news guys! Melissa has confirmed that the new HAHA key should work, there's a very small distance from the edge but the main look will stay the same. I've attached an image for the design, the red box is the keycap itself, the green box is the "edge" of the top face where legends go, the blue box is the "first wall" of the shot where legends without islands can start, and the yellow box is where islands can be injected.

(Attachment Link)

Also, at the moment 1-1-2-3-4-4 has an overwhelming lead in the poll. Thanks a lot for participating guys, now I just need to figure out how to move to the next phase

Awesome news!

[njbair]

Great news guys! Melissa has confirmed that the new HAHA key should work, there's a very small distance from the edge but the main look will stay the same. I've attached an image for the design, the red box is the keycap itself, the green box is the "edge" of the top face where legends go, the blue box is the "first wall" of the shot where legends without islands can start, and the yellow box is where islands can be injected.

(Attachment Link)

Also, at the moment 1-1-2-3-4-4 has an overwhelming lead in the poll. Thanks a lot for participating guys, now I just need to figure out how to move to the next phase

This is the kind of good detailed manufacturing info I love to see. Thanks for sharing.

[Niomosy]

Fantastic news on the Haha key.  I might have backed out otherw.... okay, not really but it's definitely a selling point of the set

Interesting to see 112344 win out.  I'm not overly picky so long as the main board is 1234.  I'll roll with the top/bottom rows however they end up seeing as the space bar is R3.

[thesiscamper]

Another important update, I've been basing the colors from photos of swatches from SP's website and Oobly pointed out that it's inaccurate. So using more accurate data, the colors will change, especially the purple keys.

Here are images for comparison, RDE has more red than what I originally thought:

Old colors:



New colors:



Swatch:

[Elrick]

Another important update, I've been basing the colors from photos of swatches from SP's website and Oobly pointed out that it's inaccurate. So using more accurate data, the colors will change, especially the purple keys.

Here are images for comparison, RDE has more red than what I originally thought:

Old colors:

Show Image

New colors:

Show Image

Swatch:

Show Image

Well at least they look more PURPLE than before, I'm actually liking this new colour a lot more.  You know why, because it can go with more warm coloured keyboards like Beiges and Creams.

[thesiscamper]

Another important update, I've been basing the colors from photos of swatches from SP's website and Oobly pointed out that it's inaccurate. So using more accurate data, the colors will change, especially the purple keys.

Here are images for comparison, RDE has more red than what I originally thought:

Old colors:

Show Image

New colors:

Show Image

Swatch:

Show Image

Well at least they look more PURPLE than before, I'm actually liking this new colour a lot more.  You know why, because it can go with more warm coloured keyboards like Beiges and Creams.

That's good to know, I'll be updating the mockups later to reflect the new colors, maybe this weekend  :thumb:

[My_Thoughts]

ISO kit comments

Hi.  The ISO kit us usually the UK extra/changed keys and Enter etc.  Since there are keys with 3 symbols in the International Kit, could you consider changing the ISO 4 to be the 3 symbol 4 $ € key?  Thanks

http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_images/filco_tenkeyless_brown_uk_large.jpg

[thesiscamper]

I'd like some feedback for another Eva head redesign:

edit:
Scrapped this idea.

[AdmiralSquid]

Looking really good! Reminds me of the old batman animated series joker. Have you decided what medium you are going to do this GB in?

[thesiscamper]

ISO kit comments

Hi.  The ISO kit us usually the UK extra/changed keys and Enter etc.  Since there are keys with 3 symbols in the International Kit, could you consider changing the ISO 4 to be the 3 symbol 4 $ € key?  Thanks

http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_images/filco_tenkeyless_brown_uk_large.jpg

Sure, if that's the standard I wouldn't mind changing it as long as the others agree

Looking really good! Reminds me of the old batman animated series joker. Have you decided what medium you are going to do this GB in?

Probably through Massdrop of PMK, it will be a logistics nightmare if I try to do this on my own from where I am. Plus I'm new to the community and mech kb in general, and I wouldn't trust myself to do a very good job.

[Niomosy]

Both work.  I've not used PMK's site so I can't comment on that.  They do have submissions up and running now so it's a possibility.  That said, SA sets have had some solid success on Massdrop lately; namely Carbon and Danger Zone.

Personally, I don't blame you wanting to go one of these routes.  Going it alone seems like a massive ordeal.

[thesiscamper]

Both work.  I've not used PMK's site so I can't comment on that.  They do have submissions up and running now so it's a possibility.  That said, SA sets have had some solid success on Massdrop lately; namely Carbon and Danger Zone.

Personally, I don't blame you wanting to go one of these routes.  Going it alone seems like a massive ordeal.

I'm from the Philippines, and that in itself complicates everything about staging a group buy. I wouldn't want anyone else to endure our customs agency and postal services

edit:
I closed the poll, there hasn't been any vote for quite some time. Chosen row numbering is 1-1-2-3-4-4, thanks to everyone who participated

[Niomosy]

Both work.  I've not used PMK's site so I can't comment on that.  They do have submissions up and running now so it's a possibility.  That said, SA sets have had some solid success on Massdrop lately; namely Carbon and Danger Zone.

Personally, I don't blame you wanting to go one of these routes.  Going it alone seems like a massive ordeal.

I'm from the Philippines, and that in itself complicates everything about staging a group buy. I wouldn't want anyone else to endure our customs agency and postal services

edit:
I closed the poll, there hasn't been any vote for quite some time. Chosen row numbering is 1-1-2-3-4-4, thanks to everyone who participated

That would, indeed, complicate things.  It's why I'm glad for services like MassDrop and PMK being able to handle these things.  112344 should be interesting for me.  The F keys as row 1 will probably turn out well given I normally have a negative tilt on my keyboard.

[simonyunhe]

The new PMK site is "LIVE" now! 

[Elrick]

The new PMK site is "LIVE" now! 

I miss the OLD site, when you had a time deadline to front up with the money before it ends BUT now there's nothing, no deadline, no numbers showing any MOQs and you're left wondering, what is happening.

Prefer the older method because the time and amount of kits sold were easily seen by everyone who wanted to be in the Group Buy.

[Niomosy]

Yeah, the new site is up but it isn't tremendously informative as to the process thus far.  I was hoping that would be fleshed out better prior to launch.

Right now, it's somewhat cloudy.  You submit an IC and they determine which ones get put up for vote - I assume it's to confirm any copyright issues but there's simply no info indicating that.  Then it's, "checks with the most votes will move to production."  That's a bit vague.  Beyond that, they seem to have goofed on the link to the legal PDF.  It's http://pimpmykeyboard.com/product_images/Keyset-Designs--License-Royalty-Payments.pdf where they had it as pimpmykeyboard-com.mybigcommerce.com which doesn't resolve for me.

Looks like there's still some work to be done there.

Personally, being able to use PayPal on Massdrop has been quite nice since my miscellaneous fund is normally stored there.

[thesiscamper]

I'm currently in discussion with Massdrop for this set, I'll give you an update as soon as I have some news

[Elrick]

I'm currently in discussion with Massdrop for this set, I'll give you an update as soon as I have some news

Eagerly awaiting for this outcome  .

[Niomosy]

I'm currently in discussion with Massdrop for this set, I'll give you an update as soon as I have some news

Great news!  Out of curiosity, how does that work?  Typically, stuff just gets submitted via the voting system.  Submission via the support form?  That's what they'd mentioned for becoming a vendor, at least.  Not sure if that's the case here.

[thesiscamper]

I'm currently in discussion with Massdrop for this set, I'll give you an update as soon as I have some news

Great news!  Out of curiosity, how does that work?  Typically, stuff just gets submitted via the voting system.  Submission via the support form?  That's what they'd mentioned for becoming a vendor, at least.  Not sure if that's the case here.

Yeah I filled out a support form and they saw this IC thread, which somehow acts as a voting platform in itself

[MikeTheTiger]

I'm currently in discussion with Massdrop for this set, I'll give you an update as soon as I have some news

Great news!  Out of curiosity, how does that work?  Typically, stuff just gets submitted via the voting system.  Submission via the support form?  That's what they'd mentioned for becoming a vendor, at least.  Not sure if that's the case here.

Yeah I filled out a support form and they saw this IC thread, which somehow acts as a voting platform in itself

Nice!

[Niomosy]

I'm currently in discussion with Massdrop for this set, I'll give you an update as soon as I have some news

Great news!  Out of curiosity, how does that work?  Typically, stuff just gets submitted via the voting system.  Submission via the support form?  That's what they'd mentioned for becoming a vendor, at least.  Not sure if that's the case here.

Yeah I filled out a support form and they saw this IC thread, which somehow acts as a voting platform in itself

That's pretty cool.  Is there still a vote that goes up on MassDrop?  I imagine that would be helpful as there's probably a lot more people that can vote there.  Regardless, things are sounding positive all around.

[thesiscamper]

That's pretty cool.  Is there still a vote that goes up on MassDrop?  I imagine that would be helpful as there's probably a lot more people that can vote there.  Regardless, things are sounding positive all around.

I can't really say at the moment, once I know more I'll give you guys an update. 

[Oobly]

I don't really like the new PMK system, for a number of reasons:

1. No "limited edition" Group Buys. When you sign the form to use PMK for your set you give them the rights to produce it whenever they choose, so the sets have less rarity value and less perceived actual value. This will probably end up resulting in a lot less sales than they hope / expect.
2. No time limits / deadlines / production schedules, etc. No group feeling / community involvement.
3. They set the prices, it's not based on MOQ, so there's no incentive to get more people to order and no hype or sense of achievement when kits meets MOQ. There's no way for us to tell if a set is a "success" or not.

It just smacks of business for profit with no real community involvement to me and tries to get designers hooked in with a 5% profit. Essentially they pay us a royalty for us to design and market their product for them.

I prefer Massdrop for GB's and will probably continue to do so and not buy sets from PMK unless it's a really GREAT one that I just have to have.

I'm very interested in the Massdrop process, thank you for sharing how it works and please continue to do so

If they could implement a fallback solution for kits that don't meet MOQ it'd be just about perfect for GB's. I think that's the ideal solution for small ISO kits. Something like "If this kit doesn't meet MOQ, I'd like to replace it with: <dropdown with default 'none' option>". Should be relatively easy to implement and perhaps it would be useful for some other kinds of drops for them, too.

[swimmingbird]

I don't really like the new PMK system, for a number of reasons:

1. No "limited edition" Group Buys. When you sign the form to use PMK for your set you give them the rights to produce it whenever they choose, so the sets have less rarity value and less perceived actual value. This will probably end up resulting in a lot less sales than they hope / expect.
2. No time limits / deadlines / production schedules, etc. No group feeling / community involvement.
3. They set the prices, it's not based on MOQ, so there's no incentive to get more people to order and no hype or sense of achievement when kits meets MOQ. There's no way for us to tell if a set is a "success" or not.

It just smacks of business for profit with no real community involvement to me and tries to get designers hooked in with a 5% profit. Essentially they pay us a royalty for us to design and market their product for them.

I prefer Massdrop for GB's and will probably continue to do so and not buy sets from PMK unless it's a really GREAT one that I just have to have.

I'm very interested in the Massdrop process, thank you for sharing how it works and please continue to do so

If they could implement a fallback solution for kits that don't meet MOQ it'd be just about perfect for GB's. I think that's the ideal solution for small ISO kits. Something like "If this kit doesn't meet MOQ, I'd like to replace it with: <dropdown with default 'none' option>". Should be relatively easy to implement and perhaps it would be useful for some other kinds of drops for them, too.

This is a good reason why PMK should be avoided - they are basically just getting free IP and profiting off other people's hard work

[thesiscamper]

If they could implement a fallback solution for kits that don't meet MOQ it'd be just about perfect for GB's. I think that's the ideal solution for small ISO kits. Something like "If this kit doesn't meet MOQ, I'd like to replace it with: <dropdown with default 'none' option>". Should be relatively easy to implement and perhaps it would be useful for some other kinds of drops for them, too.

I'll ask about the fallback option, and I agree with your points. I'm new to the community, and I would like to experience the same excitement and achievement you get from "successful" group buys. 

[Zorberema]

I don't really like the new PMK system, for a number of reasons:

1. No "limited edition" Group Buys. When you sign the form to use PMK for your set you give them the rights to produce it whenever they choose, so the sets have less rarity value and less perceived actual value. This will probably end up resulting in a lot less sales than they hope / expect.
2. No time limits / deadlines / production schedules, etc. No group feeling / community involvement.
3. They set the prices, it's not based on MOQ, so there's no incentive to get more people to order and no hype or sense of achievement when kits meets MOQ. There's no way for us to tell if a set is a "success" or not.

It just smacks of business for profit with no real community involvement to me and tries to get designers hooked in with a 5% profit. Essentially they pay us a royalty for us to design and market their product for them.

I prefer Massdrop for GB's and will probably continue to do so and not buy sets from PMK unless it's a really GREAT one that I just have to have.

I'm very interested in the Massdrop process, thank you for sharing how it works and please continue to do so

If they could implement a fallback solution for kits that don't meet MOQ it'd be just about perfect for GB's. I think that's the ideal solution for small ISO kits. Something like "If this kit doesn't meet MOQ, I'd like to replace it with: <dropdown with default 'none' option>". Should be relatively easy to implement and perhaps it would be useful for some other kinds of drops for them, too.

This is a good reason why PMK should be avoided - they are basically just getting free IP and profiting off other people's hard work

The thing is, massdrop GB's still goes through signature plastic! The only difference is that it is on the massdrop site instead of SP's own; pimpmykeyboard. The reason it has been on massdrop was because of renovations of PMK, so it's not like the terms for the makers of the set gets better on massdrop! Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I've understood it

[Elrick]

The thing is, massdrop GB's still goes through signature plastic! The only difference is that it is on the massdrop site instead of SP's own; pimpmykeyboard. The reason it has been on massdrop was because of renovations of PMK, so it's not like the terms for the makers of the set gets better on massdrop! Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I've understood it

Nothing to do with who is better other than this vital FACT - MASSDROP simply supplies a lot more order numbers than relying upon PMK's webstore.

Has been proven in the past where they (PMK) could barely get 300 tops to meet a basic moq yet on MassDrop it reaches that number in a day or two.  Whether you despise MassDrop or not they have included Key-caps within their warehouse inventory and we the collectors that should be rejoicing.

More order numbers will always win over everything else in life, almost like a perverse version of democracy - where people hand over their money on which key-set shall be made.

[Oobly]

I don't really like the new PMK system, for a number of reasons:

1. No "limited edition" Group Buys. When you sign the form to use PMK for your set you give them the rights to produce it whenever they choose, so the sets have less rarity value and less perceived actual value. This will probably end up resulting in a lot less sales than they hope / expect.
2. No time limits / deadlines / production schedules, etc. No group feeling / community involvement.
3. They set the prices, it's not based on MOQ, so there's no incentive to get more people to order and no hype or sense of achievement when kits meets MOQ. There's no way for us to tell if a set is a "success" or not.

It just smacks of business for profit with no real community involvement to me and tries to get designers hooked in with a 5% profit. Essentially they pay us a royalty for us to design and market their product for them.

I prefer Massdrop for GB's and will probably continue to do so and not buy sets from PMK unless it's a really GREAT one that I just have to have.

I'm very interested in the Massdrop process, thank you for sharing how it works and please continue to do so

If they could implement a fallback solution for kits that don't meet MOQ it'd be just about perfect for GB's. I think that's the ideal solution for small ISO kits. Something like "If this kit doesn't meet MOQ, I'd like to replace it with: <dropdown with default 'none' option>". Should be relatively easy to implement and perhaps it would be useful for some other kinds of drops for them, too.

This is a good reason why PMK should be avoided - they are basically just getting free IP and profiting off other people's hard work

The thing is, massdrop GB's still goes through signature plastic! The only difference is that it is on the massdrop site instead of SP's own; pimpmykeyboard. The reason it has been on massdrop was because of renovations of PMK, so it's not like the terms for the makers of the set gets better on massdrop! Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I've understood it

Yes, the sets will still be made by Signature Plastics, but there are a number of important differences:

Massdrop:
1. We get quotes from SP for different tiers for different kits.
2. We take orders for the kits.
3. We place a single mass order with SP to make the sets.
The set design "belongs" to the designer and SP does not have rights to make them for other clients.

PMK:
1. Design a set and sign the agreements including the rights for SP to make your design for anyone.
2. If PMK approves it goes to Interest Check stage.
3. The most popular sets from the Interest Checks will be made by SP and sold on their website at a fixed price, with no dependence on number of orders and no time limits. They decide if and when to make the sets.
The set design "belongs" to SP and they give 5% royalty of the sales to the designer.

So yes, the terms for the designer are better on Massdrop. Massdrop does not have the rights to run the set again without the designer's permission.

[thesiscamper]

The set design "belongs" to the designer and SP does not have rights to make them for other clients.

How can we confirm this? Is it because the set went through Massdrop and PMK did not deal directly with the designer so the rights stay with the designer?

[tofgerl]

No, it's because the contracts are different. In the PMK case the contract is signed first, then the set goes through IC and GB. With MD, the IC happens before anything, then there's an agreement with MD, then the GB happens, and FINALLY the contract with SP for a single purchase of X keysets is signed. There is no lasting agreement between either the designer and MD or the designer or SP - it's just a normal purchase.

[thesiscamper]

No, it's because the contracts are different. In the PMK case the contract is signed first, then the set goes through IC and GB. With MD, the IC happens before anything, then there's an agreement with MD, then the GB happens, and FINALLY the contract with SP for a single purchase of X keysets is signed. There is no lasting agreement between either the designer and MD or the designer or SP - it's just a normal purchase.

Ahh yeah that's what I meant, the designer didn't deal directly so there's no contract between them and PMK. Anyway that's good to know beforehand, I'm learning a lot from you guys. Thanks! 

[tofgerl]

There might be a contract, but not like you mean, yes. I mean no. Whatever, we're agreed 😂

[thesiscamper]

There might be a contract, but not like you mean, yes. I mean no. Whatever, we're agreed 😂

Hmm.. well, I kinda got the gist of it... PMK = they own rights; MD = designer retains rights

[tofgerl]

Indeed

[Oobly]

From the "Keyset-Designs-License-Royalty_Payments.pdf":

"Under the license, Signature Plastics has the right to:
a.   decide whether or not to produce and sell keysets from the submitted design;
b.   make modifications to the keyset configurations;
c.   determine the quantity of keysets to produce and sell;
d.   schedule when the keysets will be produced and sold;
e.  establish the selling price of the keysets produced from the design;
f.  use the design for marketing and promotional campaigns."

You need to sign this document when submitting your design for an Interest Check for the PMK website.

[thesiscamper]

From the "Keyset-Designs-License-Royalty_Payments.pdf":

"Under the license, Signature Plastics has the right to:
a.   decide whether or not to produce and sell keysets from the submitted design;
b.   make modifications to the keyset configurations;
c.   determine the quantity of keysets to produce and sell;
d.   schedule when the keysets will be produced and sold;
e.  establish the selling price of the keysets produced from the design;
f.  use the design for marketing and promotional campaigns."

You need to sign this document when submitting your design for an Interest Check for the PMK website.

Haven't really checked the site fully, just a peek at the new layout. I guess now there's not reason to...

Anyway, here's a mockup my friend did for the set, I'm planning on using something like this from now on

[Zorberema]

From the "Keyset-Designs-License-Royalty_Payments.pdf":

"Under the license, Signature Plastics has the right to:
a.   decide whether or not to produce and sell keysets from the submitted design;
b.   make modifications to the keyset configurations;
c.   determine the quantity of keysets to produce and sell;
d.   schedule when the keysets will be produced and sold;
e.  establish the selling price of the keysets produced from the design;
f.  use the design for marketing and promotional campaigns."

You need to sign this document when submitting your design for an Interest Check for the PMK website.

I don't really like the new PMK system, for a number of reasons:

1. No "limited edition" Group Buys. When you sign the form to use Yes, the sets will still be made by Signature Plastics, but there are a number of important differences:

Massdrop:
1. We get quotes from SP for different tiers for different kits.
2. We take orders for the kits.
3. We place a single mass order with SP to make the sets.
The set design "belongs" to the designer and SP does not have rights to make them for other clients.

PMK:
1. Design a set and sign the agreements including the rights for SP to make your design for anyone.
2. If PMK approves it goes to Interest Check stage.
3. The most popular sets from the Interest Checks will be made by SP and sold on their website at a fixed price, with no dependence on number of orders and no time limits. They decide if and when to make the sets.
The set design "belongs" to SP and they give 5% royalty of the sales to the designer.

So yes, the terms for the designer are better on Massdrop. Massdrop does not have the rights to run the set again without the designer's permission.

Then I completely agree that massdrop is better! Didn't know there were different terms for PMK, it's good that massdrop has come in with a better alternative!

[Niomosy]

There might be a contract, but not like you mean, yes. I mean no. Whatever, we're agreed 😂

Hmm.. well, I kinda got the gist of it... PMK = they own rights; MD = designer retains rights

I think there's some kinks in that.  The colorway itself, if I recall correctly, has no legal protection.  A single color might be trademarked by large corporations as "their" corporate color and even then, only within their industry, but there are trademark fees associated with that.  A colorway itself wouldn't fall under copyright protection.   Some novelties might fall under copyright, though.

I think what SP is trying to do is simply avoid any confusion on the matter.

[Niomosy]

I don't really like the new PMK system, for a number of reasons:

1. No "limited edition" Group Buys. When you sign the form to use PMK for your set you give them the rights to produce it whenever they choose, so the sets have less rarity value and less perceived actual value. This will probably end up resulting in a lot less sales than they hope / expect.
2. No time limits / deadlines / production schedules, etc. No group feeling / community involvement.
3. They set the prices, it's not based on MOQ, so there's no incentive to get more people to order and no hype or sense of achievement when kits meets MOQ. There's no way for us to tell if a set is a "success" or not.

It just smacks of business for profit with no real community involvement to me and tries to get designers hooked in with a 5% profit. Essentially they pay us a royalty for us to design and market their product for them.

I prefer Massdrop for GB's and will probably continue to do so and not buy sets from PMK unless it's a really GREAT one that I just have to have.

I'm very interested in the Massdrop process, thank you for sharing how it works and please continue to do so

If they could implement a fallback solution for kits that don't meet MOQ it'd be just about perfect for GB's. I think that's the ideal solution for small ISO kits. Something like "If this kit doesn't meet MOQ, I'd like to replace it with: <dropdown with default 'none' option>". Should be relatively easy to implement and perhaps it would be useful for some other kinds of drops for them, too.

This is a good reason why PMK should be avoided - they are basically just getting free IP and profiting off other people's hard work

The thing is, massdrop GB's still goes through signature plastic! The only difference is that it is on the massdrop site instead of SP's own; pimpmykeyboard. The reason it has been on massdrop was because of renovations of PMK, so it's not like the terms for the makers of the set gets better on massdrop! Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I've understood it

Yes, the sets will still be made by Signature Plastics, but there are a number of important differences:

Massdrop:
1. We get quotes from SP for different tiers for different kits.
2. We take orders for the kits.
3. We place a single mass order with SP to make the sets.
The set design "belongs" to the designer and SP does not have rights to make them for other clients.

PMK:
1. Design a set and sign the agreements including the rights for SP to make your design for anyone.
2. If PMK approves it goes to Interest Check stage.
3. The most popular sets from the Interest Checks will be made by SP and sold on their website at a fixed price, with no dependence on number of orders and no time limits. They decide if and when to make the sets.
The set design "belongs" to SP and they give 5% royalty of the sales to the designer.

So yes, the terms for the designer are better on Massdrop. Massdrop does not have the rights to run the set again without the designer's permission.

Do you have more on that?  At least, from what I've read, a colorway is not a legally protected item in the US.  Someone could just submit a similar colorway under another name as far as I'm aware.