Author Topic: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets (GB completed)  (Read 102883 times)

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Offline zslane

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[IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets (GB completed)
« on: Sun, 07 February 2016, 18:08:39 »
Update (12/12/16): This keycap set drop is currently live on MassDrop!

Introducing SA Dasher and its inverse, SA Dancer. A pair of SA-family colorway keysets in fully sculptured 1-1-2-3-4-3 profile. The colors are BBJ and BO with white legends, in homage to the classic Dasher terminal keyboards from Data General. It's all about the blue!

(Original Data General Dasher terminal, the inspiration for this keyset)


The Dasher colorway:






The Dancer colorway:





155612-0
« Last Edit: Wed, 28 December 2016, 10:01:00 by zslane »

Offline zslane

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 07 February 2016, 18:08:49 »
Here are renders of the kits. The goal here is to keep this simple and small (in terms of number of kits). There are no novelty keys requiring new legend plates to be made. The Shift keys will be the new row 4 profile keys with the corrected legends.

SA Dasher:


SA Dancer:


The price quote from Signature Plastics is shown below. The hope is to get these sets up on MassDrop, where we might be able to get the prices down a little bit.

Kit25 sets50 sets100 sets
TKL$118$90$76
NUMPAD$38$26$19
ISO$13$10$8
ARROWS$11$9$8
SPECIALTY$99$69$53
SPECIALTY (no row-1 blanks)$92$61$47

Note that if a buyer was interested in getting complete sets of both versions of the colorway, they only need to buy one ARROWS kit. Which one to get depends on which color of row 3 arrows you don't mind having duplicates of.

Also, even though it isn't shown in the above images, there would be ala carte spacebars available as well so people can stock up on extras.
« Last Edit: Sun, 18 December 2016, 15:59:50 by zslane »

Offline zslane

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 07 February 2016, 18:08:57 »
The set that needs to be worked out here, in my view, is the SPECIALTY kit. It is very pricey right now, and there are probably keys we could drop from it to bring the price down. For instance, we could lose the row 1 blanks. They are there simply because the original Dasher keyboard had blank keys in the Function key row, and I thought some folks might like to re-create that look. But it hurts the price of the kit. We could also probably lose the Mac keys CMD and OPT, the 1.75u blank, and the extra 2.25u Shift key. But since I don't use any keyboards with alternate layouts, I am uncertain how to best approach this kit. I want to keep the price down, but we are also fighting against the reality that alternate layout kits often don't hit MOQ, and by bundling them together into one kit, there is a greater chance it will hit MOQ.

I want to apologize for the lack of international support, but I want to keep the number of kits small while covering the largest customer bases. I also want to stress again that there are no new legends, no novelties, and no custom colors. The goal is to keep this small and as wallet-friendly as possible while reaching MOQ.
« Last Edit: Sun, 18 December 2016, 16:00:03 by zslane »

Offline iss

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 07 February 2016, 20:30:47 »
Honestly, I'd probably drop most of the specialty kit. Things that could go, in order of least usefulness:

1) Row 1 blanks
2) R3 1.75u blank, Fn, and Enter
3) R3 Cmd/Opt keys
4) R4 1u Shift
5) R3 1u Alt (either add a 1u Ctrl to go along with it a la WhiteFox, or drop it)
6) R4 2.25u Shift (as a former FC660M owner, this sucks, but ISO trading is possible)
7) R3 1.25u Fn (Super/Opt is probably enough to satisfy most people)

I really like the full HHKB layout support, but I think a lot of the extras (1.75u R3 that's not Caps Lock/Control, for instance) are pretty superfluous and aren't found on anything today. Anything over a standard Tsangan kit (bottom winkeyless row + 1.75u Shift) is just gravy.
« Last Edit: Sun, 07 February 2016, 20:33:17 by iss »

Offline trenzafeeds

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 07 February 2016, 20:56:18 »
To tell the truth, not enough contrast for me
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Offline Niomosy

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 07 February 2016, 22:12:16 »
Been waiting for this one.  Definitely in.

Offline Suembeaux

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 07 February 2016, 22:38:26 »
Absolutely love this colorway, having trouble deciding between PuLSE and Dasher. Good luck on the GB!
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Offline bjb39

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 06:34:50 »
I love this kit. I would change nothing about it.

Offline Revilos

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 13:57:43 »
When might it be on Massdrop? May consider it later in the year - seems to be very useful being in the UK over other European countries
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 February 2016, 13:59:48 by Revilos »

Offline zslane

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 14:15:18 »
That's a good question. I don't really know how MassDrop determines its group buy schedules. First we have to entice MassDrop to even take the keysets. I'd like to run follow-on rounds through PMK, the way Jukebox has.

I think an optimistic time frame for MassDrop, assuming they elect to run SA Dasher/Dancer, would be April at the earliest. But I am engaging in pure speculation at this point.

Offline deduction

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 16:23:28 »
Assuming ABS plastics because no mention of material type and the SP colorways chosen.  Is that a safe assumption?

I love the keyset, only wish there was a dox child set.  Will definitely be buying TKL and specialty packs.

Offline lashiel

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 16:54:04 »
Assuming ABS plastics because no mention of material type and the SP colorways chosen.  Is that a safe assumption?

I love the keyset, only wish there was a dox child set.  Will definitely be buying TKL and specialty packs.

SP doesn't do SA PBT for custom sets like this, so it's a safe assumption that ABS will always be the case.

Offline zslane

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 17:37:21 »
lashiel is correct. Signature Plastics only does double-shot ABS for their SA family of keycaps.

Offline William_S_Jones

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 18:47:32 »
I like this keyset & I like the Dancer set the best!

Offline iss

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 19:00:20 »
Here's a visual of my suggestion for the specialty set:



Green = definitely needs to be kept
Yellow = judgement call (depending on price)
Red = remove

Also, if spacebars will be offered separately, the 7u bar can probably go too (Nantucket Selectric is doing this).
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 February 2016, 19:05:08 by iss »

Offline Elrick

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 19:32:07 »
About time this baby finally got posted here in the Interest Check section of GH   :thumb: .

Seriously love this colour-way because it's the FIRST one developed to go with lighter coloured keyboards as well as with the darker coloured ones.

Have a few keyboards lined up for these.

Offline bjb39

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 20:15:19 »
Here's a visual of my suggestion for the specialty set:

Show Image


Green = definitely needs to be kept
Yellow = judgement call (depending on price)
Red = remove

Also, if spacebars will be offered separately, the 7u bar can probably go too (Nantucket Selectric is doing this).

If you cut the row 3 1u alt, and the row 4 1u fn and 1u shift, then base + specialty kit won't cover White Fox layout. Around 1000 of those were just sold, so you'd definitely alienate some potential buyers.

Personally that's what I'm planning to use this kit for, and I'm definitely out if those get cut.

Offline bjb39

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 20:23:51 »
Here's a WhiteFox Aria mock from the Deskthority thread:



Cutting all those row 3 and 4 keys, unfortunately, would make this impossible.


Offline zslane

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 20:46:09 »
This is great feedback, folks. Keep it coming!

Offline iss

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 21:11:38 »
Here's a WhiteFox Aria mock from the Deskthority thread:

Show Image


Cutting all those row 3 and 4 keys, unfortunately, would make this impossible.

Alt next to Return can be substituted for the 1u Super. Agreed that the R4 1u Fn should be kept, it's a pretty common key on 65%/HHKB. The real WhiteFox worry is the vanilla/ISO variants need four R3 1u modifiers (key to the right of return + three keys between spacebar and arrows). I think the best solution might be to keep the R3 1u Alt and add an R3 1u Control- that way your mockup is fine and Vanilla WhiteFox users can have 1u Alt/Super/Ctrl with the other Super key to the right of Return.

Offline iss

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 21:18:53 »
Revised:


Offline Pinecone

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 21:36:21 »
To tell the truth, not enough contrast for me

I would like to add to this.
Can we take a break from all the blue caps? Modern Selectric, Nantucket Selectric, PuLSE, Danger Zone, Calm Depths, Penumbra and every other light-blue color variant.
Too much blue.
PuLSE and Nantucket are on sale RIGHT NOW and Danger Zone just finished production and is shipping.
2016 just started a month ago.
I'm no designer, but as a consumer, I would like to see more colors outside of blue this year.
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 February 2016, 21:39:24 by Pinecone »

Offline lashiel

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 21:43:23 »
To tell the truth, not enough contrast for me

I would like to add to this.
Can we take a break from all the blue caps? Modern Selectric, Nantucket Selectric, PuLSE, Danger Zone, Calm Depths, Penumbra and every other light-blue color variant.
Too much blue.
PuLSE and Nantucket are on sale RIGHT NOW and Danger Zone just finished production and is shipping.
2016 just started a month ago.
I'm no designer, but as a consumer, I would like to see more colors outside of blue this year.

To be fair, Dasher and Dancer have been in IC stage for a very long time now on Deskthority. It does happen to be timed with quite a few other blue sets at the moment though.

And, although I agree that the sets do not personally float my boat, they do fill a niche. I think the very fact that it is low contrast is what will make this set appeal to some people over many of the flashier kits that have released recently. It's a rather soothing color combo, imo, even if it isn't for me.

Offline iss

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 21:46:54 »
It's got the feeling of Calm Depths- just soft and soothing. It's pretty different from Pulse/Selectric and nothing like Danger Zone.

Offline Pinecone

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 21:59:32 »
To tell the truth, not enough contrast for me

I would like to add to this.
Can we take a break from all the blue caps? Modern Selectric, Nantucket Selectric, PuLSE, Danger Zone, Calm Depths, Penumbra and every other light-blue color variant.
Too much blue.
PuLSE and Nantucket are on sale RIGHT NOW and Danger Zone just finished production and is shipping.
2016 just started a month ago.
I'm no designer, but as a consumer, I would like to see more colors outside of blue this year.

To be fair, Dasher and Dancer have been in IC stage for a very long time now on Deskthority. It does happen to be timed with quite a few other blue sets at the moment though.

And, although I agree that the sets do not personally float my boat, they do fill a niche. I think the very fact that it is low contrast is what will make this set appeal to some people over many of the flashier kits that have released recently. It's a rather soothing color combo, imo, even if it isn't for me.
Yeah, I'm not knocking on the set at all. Nothing against it whatsoever.
I would just like to see more variety of colors instead of blue you know?
I agree the colors don't offer enough contrast, but that's just an opinion that both you and I share.
I've only been in the mech-scene since the Carbon drop, so I'm still pretty new. But since then, all I've seen being sold in GBs are blue sets.

Offline zslane

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #25 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 22:15:13 »
It's ironic to me that someone feels there's too much blue out there now. When I began this project last year, Danger Zone was just wrapping up its group buy on MassDrop. At the time, my feeling was that there wasn't enough blue!

It's true, quite a number of sets have blue keycaps. However, I would point out that very few of them provide bue alphas. Most of the time, the blue keys are relegated to the role of modifiers. I saw Dasher/Dancer as a chance to put a set out there that provided some rich blue alphas, and as a dual-blue set (i.e., nothing but blue), it allows those of us who love blue to get our blue fill without any other distracting colors.

I mean, I saw photos of the Data General Dasher keyboard and I couldn't help thinking, "I want that..."

Offline Niomosy

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #26 on: Mon, 08 February 2016, 23:47:36 »
To tell the truth, not enough contrast for me

I would like to add to this.
Can we take a break from all the blue caps? Modern Selectric, Nantucket Selectric, PuLSE, Danger Zone, Calm Depths, Penumbra and every other light-blue color variant.
Too much blue.
PuLSE and Nantucket are on sale RIGHT NOW and Danger Zone just finished production and is shipping.
2016 just started a month ago.
I'm no designer, but as a consumer, I would like to see more colors outside of blue this year.

To be honest, very few of those are "blue" sets.  Pulse has some blue but is primarily a black set with blue modifiers.  Penumbra's the same as is the latest Selectric.  I would not classify a single one of those as being blue.  Blue is an accent color but not the primary color there.

Now if we're going to talk blue, Earfbound, Skeletor, and Keyboard & Co are far more fitting of that bill with each going about their use of blue in different ways.

If you want to look at non-blue sets, look to sets like Rebel Pilot, Green Screen, and Hana (though the OP has been hit/miss of late).

Offline bjb39

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 09 February 2016, 06:14:22 »
Revised:

Show Image


As a Mac user, I prefer to use CMD and OPT keys, so I was excited to see them in this set... but I understand that if most people feel like they're not wanted/necessary that it makes sense to cut them.

Offline lolpes

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 09 February 2016, 06:38:19 »
It's ironic to me that someone feels there's too much blue out there now. When I began this project last year, Danger Zone was just wrapping up its group buy on MassDrop. At the time, my feeling was that there wasn't enough blue!

It's true, quite a number of sets have blue keycaps. However, I would point out that very few of them provide bue alphas. Most of the time, the blue keys are relegated to the role of modifiers. I saw Dasher/Dancer as a chance to put a set out there that provided some rich blue alphas, and as a dual-blue set (i.e., nothing but blue), it allows those of us who love blue to get our blue fill without any other distracting colors.

I mean, I saw photos of the Data General Dasher keyboard and I couldn't help thinking, "I want that..."

My feelings exactly! I am currently divided by your set and the space cadet set from 7bit :/

Offline Den441

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 09 February 2016, 06:51:14 »
It's ironic to me that someone feels there's too much blue out there now. When I began this project last year, Danger Zone was just wrapping up its group buy on MassDrop. At the time, my feeling was that there wasn't enough blue!

It's true, quite a number of sets have blue keycaps. However, I would point out that very few of them provide bue alphas. Most of the time, the blue keys are relegated to the role of modifiers. I saw Dasher/Dancer as a chance to put a set out there that provided some rich blue alphas, and as a dual-blue set (i.e., nothing but blue), it allows those of us who love blue to get our blue fill without any other distracting colors.

I mean, I saw photos of the Data General Dasher keyboard and I couldn't help thinking, "I want that..."

My feelings exactly! I am currently divided by your set and the space cadet set from 7bit :/

I canceled my space cadet order when I first saw this. It was not an easy decision, but I think Dasher wins out at the end of the day. I've seen pics of all the SA sets ever made, and this one is right up there with the best. If SP does a good job, it may well end up being the best in my book. The best SA sets all have designs/colors with retro roots or connections which is no coincidence because the profile itself is so retro.
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Offline Elrick

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 09 February 2016, 07:00:12 »
It's ironic to me that someone feels there's too much blue out there now.

I mean, I saw photos of the Data General Dasher keyboard and I couldn't help thinking, "I want that..."

Who ever thinks that, might need their head read  8) .

Blue is the colour every bloke loves because it's their colour range, cool and calm with a dash of independence. 

Besides if any drop kick doesn't like it, you know where to kick them to show them the true colour of their bruised ballsack (if they have any) when they raise anymore stupid criticisms  ;) .

Offline bjb39

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 09 February 2016, 09:09:23 »
The reason I'm drawn to Dasher, aside from loving the color scheme, is its historical value. I appreciate sets like Modern Selectric and Dasher that pay homage to old-school keyboards; I think it's really cool. While the SA landscape might be a bit flooded with blue at the moment, I think Dasher is the most justified since it's based on prior art.

Offline My_Thoughts

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 09 February 2016, 09:51:15 »
Here's a visual of my suggestion for the specialty set:

Show Image


Green = definitely needs to be kept
Yellow = judgement call (depending on price)
Red = remove

Also, if spacebars will be offered separately, the 7u bar can probably go too (Nantucket Selectric is doing this).

N00b question I know, but what keyboards need the bottom R3 that is highlighted in green?  Is that the non standard Corsair/Razer keylayout?

Offline zslane

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 09 February 2016, 15:38:54 »
A bit of history: the SPECIALTY kit originally started as a slightly trimmed down version of the Hack'd By Geeks section of the same purpose. I confess that I do not know what any of those keys are for. That is why I am asking for everyone to chime in and give me their insights.

If I'm not mistaken, the 1.5u DELETE is mostly for White Fox users, yes?

I could remove the row-1 |\ key, but that would force those buyers who need it to purchase the ISO kit just for one key, no?

Honestly, I don't want to leave anyone's favorite alternate layout out, but I really want to keep this as one kit and get as much (reasonable) coverage as possible. I'd love to keep the Mac-oriented keys and all the odd 1u keys. The only reason we are looking for candidates to put on the chopping block is because I am concerned that the price of that kit, with everything in it, will drive most alternate keyboard enthusiasts away.

The row of twelve 1u blanks I can remove without much grief. Those were there only because the actual Dasher had blank Fn keys, and I know some folks really like going for vintage authenticity. But that probably isn't worth $8 to very many folks, and I kind of feel that those who are really into authenticity will be better served by facetsame's project, should it ever go into production.

Little side note: the 1.75u and 1.25u "FN" keys are my contribution to the kit; I own two Pok3rs and I set the DIP switches so that the Caps Lock position serves as (another) FN key. Those two keycaps are there for me (and I suppose any other Poker user who might want them), but I am willing to cut them if it helps bring the price down to something more manageable.

Offline zslane

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #34 on: Tue, 09 February 2016, 15:49:20 »
Now if we're going to talk blue, Earfbound, Skeletor, and Keyboard & Co are far more fitting of that bill with each going about their use of blue in different ways.

Does Earfbound really overlap with Dasher? The former is DSA while the latter is SA, and I kind of feel that puts them in different aesthetic realms for the most part.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #35 on: Tue, 09 February 2016, 16:29:33 »
Now if we're going to talk blue, Earfbound, Skeletor, and Keyboard & Co are far more fitting of that bill with each going about their use of blue in different ways.

Does Earfbound really overlap with Dasher? The former is DSA while the latter is SA, and I kind of feel that puts them in different aesthetic realms for the most part.

Not at all.  It's more along the lines of Calm Depths visually and, yes, the DSA versus SA profile.  The only thing I was referring to is that they both make more primary use of blue.

Offline iss

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #36 on: Tue, 09 February 2016, 16:46:43 »
A bit of history: the SPECIALTY kit originally started as a slightly trimmed down version of the Hack'd By Geeks section of the same purpose. I confess that I do not know what any of those keys are for. That is why I am asking for everyone to chime in and give me their insights.

If I'm not mistaken, the 1.5u DELETE is mostly for White Fox users, yes?

I could remove the row-1 |\ key, but that would force those buyers who need it to purchase the ISO kit just for one key, no?

Honestly, I don't want to leave anyone's favorite alternate layout out, but I really want to keep this as one kit and get as much (reasonable) coverage as possible. I'd love to keep the Mac-oriented keys and all the odd 1u keys. The only reason we are looking for candidates to put on the chopping block is because I am concerned that the price of that kit, with everything in it, will drive most alternate keyboard enthusiasts away.

The row of twelve 1u blanks I can remove without much grief. Those were there only because the actual Dasher had blank Fn keys, and I know some folks really like going for vintage authenticity. But that probably isn't worth $8 to very many folks, and I kind of feel that those who are really into authenticity will be better served by facetsame's project, should it ever go into production.

Little side note: the 1.75u and 1.25u "FN" keys are my contribution to the kit; I own two Pok3rs and I set the DIP switches so that the Caps Lock position serves as (another) FN key. Those two keycaps are there for me (and I suppose any other Poker user who might want them), but I am willing to cut them if it helps bring the price down to something more manageable.

R2 1.5u Delete and R1 |\ are for HHKB-like layouts, which includes some WhiteFox variants. (By the way, the ISO |\ is R4 and can't be used as a substitute.) Either both should be kept or both should be removed- your call. I personally love the HHKB layout, and having those two keys makes this an insta-buy for me, but I'm only one person.

I'm fine with keeping the R3 1.75u Fn given the Pok3r's prevalence. My main concern is that Pok3r users don't really have a reason to buy the specialty set aside from those keys, as the base set already covers the board. The R3 1.75u Enter and blank should go, though- they aren't really used at all.

Still pretty iffy on keeping Mac keys- they're very easy to substitute for other keys, like Super and Meta. The 1u Ctrl and Alt should be there for WhiteFox compatability, but the 1u Shift (and 2.25u Shift) seem excessive.

The thing about specialty/Tsangan kits is that they're just not optional- if I want to use it on a winkeyless board, I've got to get both the base and specialty kits. I think striking the right balance between price and options is especially important here. (By the way, MOQ should definitely be set to 50 for the specialty kit- that 25 MOQ sticker shock almost doomed Modern Selectric, and 50 should be pretty reachable.)


Offline BlackTriStar

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #37 on: Wed, 10 February 2016, 02:56:42 »
The 2.25u shift is for Leopold FC660 boards as they require two left shifts.

Mac keys are nice, but as a mac user i'm fine with leaving them out to bring the price down. I'll probably have to buy both dasher and dancer to create a single color set with the darker blue.


Offline zslane

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #38 on: Wed, 10 February 2016, 13:58:44 »
So I was wondering if everyone would be willing to play a little game. For each key currently shown in the SPECIALTY kit, list the keyboard layouts you know it would be used with. Don't bother with the 7u spacebar since I already plan to take that out and just offer it ala carte (along with 6.25u spacebars).

I'll start:

1u blank - (None)
1.75u FN - Poker
1.25u FN - Poker
1.75u Control (including stepped) - Poker*
1.25u CMD - Mac
1.25u OPT - Mac

* Plus any other board where you can swap the Caps Lock with Control. Please add to the list if you can.

Offline iss

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #39 on: Wed, 10 February 2016, 16:05:17 »
Going to add a substitutes column of keys that could be judged a reasonable substitute (same row/size, similar legend).

KeyLayoutSubstitutes
R1 1u |\HHKB-like layouts (Korean customs, some WhiteFox variants)ISO |\
R2 1.5u DeleteHHKB-like layouts (Korean customs, some WhiteFox variants)R2 |\ (poor match)
R3 1.75u Stepped Caps LockMost winkeyless-style boards (most customs, some legacy boards)None (irreplaceable thanks to stem placement)
R3 1.75u Stepped/Unstepped ControlAnyone who uses Control as Caps Lock (available on many boards, available to all via software)Caps Lock keys
R3 1.75u FnPok3r, fully programmable boards (although I don't see Fn there that often)Caps Lock/Control keys
R3 1.75u Enter (& blank)Have never seen a board use this.Caps Lock/Control/Fn keys
R3 1.25u FnBoards with an Fn key on the bottom row (Pok3r, FC660M/Clueboard, custom 60%s that choose to put it there)R3 1.25u Super/Menu (from base kit)
R3 1.25u Cmd/OptMac users who want legend accuracy.R3 1.25u Super/Menu/Fn
R3 1u Alt (and Ctrl if added)Some WhiteFox/65% variants, some G80-1800-like variantsR3 1u Super (although two is typically insufficient)
R4 1.75u ShiftHHKB-like layouts (Korean customs, some WhiteFox variants), most 65% layouts, many legacy boards- very common keyNone
R4 1u ShiftHave never seen a board use this (aside from ortholinear boards, but that's irrelevant for this set).R4 1u Fn
R4 2.25u ShiftFC660M/some Clueboard variants.None (trade with ISO users, who don't need the key)
R4 1u FnHHKB-like layouts (Korean customs, some WhiteFox variants), some Clueboard variants, some legacy boardsNone
R3 1.5u Ctrl/Alt, R3 1u Super, 7u spacebar"Winkeyless" layout- available on almost all customs, very common on legacy boardsNone
« Last Edit: Wed, 10 February 2016, 16:37:01 by iss »

Offline Niomosy

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #40 on: Wed, 10 February 2016, 17:49:19 »
Wouldn't the 1u blanks come in handy for layouts like Planck and such?

Offline iss

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #41 on: Wed, 10 February 2016, 18:24:05 »
Wouldn't the 1u blanks come in handy for layouts like Planck and such?

This is sculpted SA, so you'd have clashing modifiers. Besides, there's not enough of them- 16 1u blanks are required, plus a 2u spacebar. Planck support would require a new kit, and I'm not sure if there's demand for it.

Offline Niomosy

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #42 on: Wed, 10 February 2016, 19:55:48 »
Wouldn't the 1u blanks come in handy for layouts like Planck and such?

This is sculpted SA, so you'd have clashing modifiers. Besides, there's not enough of them- 16 1u blanks are required, plus a 2u spacebar. Planck support would require a new kit, and I'm not sure if there's demand for it.

Ok.  I hadn't fully paid attention to the Planck layout to realize what was needed. 

Offline My_Thoughts

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 11 February 2016, 06:19:10 »
Any chance of including both blue spare bars in the base set?

Offline zslane

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 11 February 2016, 12:48:18 »
I feel that the most sensible approach is to provide the 6.25u spacebar in the base set since that will be what 99% of buyers will need. The remaining 1% will have the ability to purchase a 7u spacebar separately, which seems pretty reasonable to me.

Offline xondat

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #45 on: Thu, 11 February 2016, 12:53:57 »
I feel that the most sensible approach is to provide the 6.25u spacebar in the base set since that will be what 99% of buyers will need. The remaining 1% will have the ability to purchase a 7u spacebar separately, which seems pretty reasonable to me.

I agree on this approach, it's always worked with either way but SA sets seem to lean towards having the 7u separate.

For now, is this thread really just pulling the correct keys together to fit the most boards?

Offline zslane

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #46 on: Thu, 11 February 2016, 18:08:20 »
Yes, at this stage I am merely trying to finalize the SPECIALTY kit (which, I suppose, could conceivably result in splitting it up into two kits if that would be the most optimal). The other kits feel stable to me.

Offline My_Thoughts

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #47 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 07:01:59 »
I really like this set.  I would throw money at Dancer today if I could.

I'm concerned that that offering 2 ISO sets will end up with neither tipping. Nantucket Selectric is at ~370 base sets and ~30 ISO. Troubled Minds did not hit 50 ISO sets.  massdrop.community is currently broken so I cannot check PuLSE right now.

I'm not sure what to suggest for Dasher/Dancer.  I would buy a second ISO set to get it to tip, but might it be better to offer a single ISO set that combines both ISO options. Though that would raise the price and might not tip at all.  Or maybe offer 2 ISO sets and set the first tip point at 10 or 15 and see how that goes. 


Offline zslane

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #48 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 12:29:51 »
I confess that I'm a little torn over how to approach issues of MOQ, just from a personal philosophical point of view. On the one hand, I am sympathetic to buyers who are in a small category and have difficulty getting their preferred kits to tip. On the other hand, I'm not sure I like the idea of eliminating choices just to forcibly channel buyers towards kits they don't really want.

To be honest, Dancer was a bit of an afterthought, born out of the recognition that people often ask for the reverse of the colorway offered. In all honesty, I don't expect any of the Dancer kits to tip at all, but I see no harm in offering them anyway. I realize there is the possibility that offering two ISO colorways might "split the vote", but I think the risk is worth it. Besides, forcing buyers of the primary colorway to buy reverse kits just to help them tip seems horribly wrong to me.

Offline bjb39

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Re: [IC] SA Dasher and SA Dancer sculptured keysets
« Reply #49 on: Sat, 13 February 2016, 12:38:17 »
In all honesty, I don't expect any of the Dancer kits to tip at all, but I see no harm in offering them anyway. I realize there is the possibility that offering two ISO colorways might "split the vote", but I think the risk is worth it.

You think the second colorway won't hit MOQ, acknowledge that this jeopardizes both colorways, but still think it's worth offering? I think splitting the vote when it's on the order of a few hundred sets is a pretty big deal and could easily bring down both.

IMO it's better to do an initial Dasher run, see how it does, then consider offering Dancer in a second group buy/Dasher round 2 based on the success of the initial run. That way you don't risk "splitting the vote" (which, honestly, I do think is a pretty big concern given the order counts you're likely to see in addition to the similarity of both kits), and you still offer Dancer after the fact if it's viable. Best case you'll have another PuLSE/Calm Depths on your hands and people will be clamoring to get any base kits or variations.. worse case Dasher doesn't hit MOQ and it's clear nobody has interest in either.

I'd also trim the specialty kit down to iss' recommendations to at least yellow if not green. I say that as someone who really wants Mac keys but also just wants to see this set become a success. Mac kit might be a nice option on a round 2 with Dancer if there's enough community interest.