Author Topic: Discussion about vintage Cherry switches, cont'd from E8-V1 GB thread.  (Read 4308 times)

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Offline Faux

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 111
About Assembly options:

We can support you with:

- Cherry Black from Wyse keyboard: 90s vintage cherry blacks. After desoldering, all switches will be cleaned by Ultrasonic, then tune with Dupont Krytox Lube. (mixed 103 and 205)
- Chery Black from Cherry G80-0577: true 80s vintage blacks, Screw in stabs, fully cleaned and tuned

Old Cherry switches only available for orders with full tuning (lube, spring swap, w or w/o stickers, hotswap LEDs) and not for sale separately. We only use Krytox lube, mixing from 103 and 205.

can any vintage blacks expert please enlighten us plebs on the finer differences between 80s and 90s switches?

Basically, around 1994-1995, Cherry (they have officially confirmed this) changed the material used for the switches. Typically, switches made in the 1980's are considered vintage since these are all before the material change. Ones afterwards are still smooth, but not on the same level as the 1980 ones. However, there are some occasional ones from 1996 which are also very smooth which makes sense as a lot of the vintage boards were not consistent and often time had a mix of switches. Many people claim that the logo is the best indicator of a vintage switch, as in big logo = vintage. I find this to be false and even chyrosran has a video where he disproves this. The best indicator is PCB date, and even still there are some outliers. Hopefully this helped.
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 February 2017, 15:48:10 by Photoelectric »

Offline cicada

  • Formerly iamacicada
  • Posts: 288
Re: Re: [GB] E8-V1 Custom TKL - TAKING ORDERS
« Reply #1 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 09:52:47 »
About Assembly options:

We can support you with:

- Cherry Black from Wyse keyboard: 90s vintage cherry blacks. After desoldering, all switches will be cleaned by Ultrasonic, then tune with Dupont Krytox Lube. (mixed 103 and 205)
- Chery Black from Cherry G80-0577: true 80s vintage blacks, Screw in stabs, fully cleaned and tuned

Old Cherry switches only available for orders with full tuning (lube, spring swap, w or w/o stickers, hotswap LEDs) and not for sale separately. We only use Krytox lube, mixing from 103 and 205.

can any vintage blacks expert please enlighten us plebs on the finer differences between 80s and 90s switches?

Basically, around 1994-1995, Cherry (they have officially confirmed this) changed the material used for the switches. Typically, switches made in the 1980's are considered vintage since these are all before the material change. Ones afterwards are still smooth, but not on the same level as the 1980 ones. However, there are some occasional ones from 1996 which are also very smooth which makes sense as a lot of the vintage boards were not consistent and often time had a mix of switches. Many people claim that the logo is the best indicator of a vintage switch, as in big logo = vintage. I find this to be false and even chyrosran has a video where he disproves this. The best indicator is PCB date, and even still there are some outliers. Hopefully this helped.

Note that the smoothness of the switches also depends on the condition they were found. Without cleaning, they can be inconsistent and unreliable, unless you've got some really nice NIB vintage blacks to begin with (still scratchy tbh). Adding very thin lube to the right spots on the stem/spring can be pretty magical :). In my experience, if tuned right and carefully, 80s or 90s will be somewhat the same, buttery smooth without the greasy/sluggish feeling that usually comes with lube and are miles better than the famous Nixdorfs - which is also VERY good naturally but the inconsistency throws me off - which is why I always have my Cherry switches lubed and springs swapped.

Big logo do not equate vintage as I know Cherry changed their moulds from time to time. There are variations in sizes/placement of the Cherry text and logo on vintage/old blacks. However I notice that 80s blacks tend to have that larger text and logo (with the letter Y being very close to the cherries).

Offline Photoelectric

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  • Posts: 6766
Re: Re: [GB] E8-V1 Custom TKL - TAKING ORDERS
« Reply #2 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 11:07:48 »
About Assembly options:

We can support you with:

- Cherry Black from Wyse keyboard: 90s vintage cherry blacks. After desoldering, all switches will be cleaned by Ultrasonic, then tune with Dupont Krytox Lube. (mixed 103 and 205)
- Chery Black from Cherry G80-0577: true 80s vintage blacks, Screw in stabs, fully cleaned and tuned

Old Cherry switches only available for orders with full tuning (lube, spring swap, w or w/o stickers, hotswap LEDs) and not for sale separately. We only use Krytox lube, mixing from 103 and 205.

can any vintage blacks expert please enlighten us plebs on the finer differences between 80s and 90s switches?

Basically, around 1994-1995, Cherry (they have officially confirmed this) changed the material used for the switches. Typically, switches made in the 1980's are considered vintage since these are all before the material change. Ones afterwards are still smooth, but not on the same level as the 1980 ones. However, there are some occasional ones from 1996 which are also very smooth which makes sense as a lot of the vintage boards were not consistent and often time had a mix of switches. Many people claim that the logo is the best indicator of a vintage switch, as in big logo = vintage. I find this to be false and even chyrosran has a video where he disproves this. The best indicator is PCB date, and even still there are some outliers. Hopefully this helped.

Note that the smoothness of the switches also depends on the condition they were found. Without cleaning, they can be inconsistent and unreliable, unless you've got some really nice NIB vintage blacks to begin with (still scratchy tbh). Adding very thin lube to the right spots on the stem/spring can be pretty magical :). In my experience, if tuned right and carefully, 80s or 90s will be somewhat the same, buttery smooth without the greasy/sluggish feeling that usually comes with lube and are miles better than the famous Nixdorfs - which is also VERY good naturally but the inconsistency throws me off - which is why I always have my Cherry switches lubed and springs swapped.

Big logo do not equate vintage as I know Cherry changed their moulds from time to time. There are variations in sizes/placement of the Cherry text and logo on vintage/old blacks. However I notice that 80s blacks tend to have that larger text and logo (with the letter Y being very close to the cherries).

I agree, I've had the same experience in terms of logo size going through lots of different batches of Cherry switches.  I've gone through some scratchy Nixdorfs (NOT due to any dirt or debris) and pretty scratchy vintage MX Blacks with large logos.  Also some super smooth MX Browns from a modern Filco but ridiculously scratchy MX Browns from a modern CM Storm keyboard some years ago.  It's a bit about luck, finding a good smooth and clean batch of switches.  Logo size matters not.  Actually some of my smoothest MX Blacks have been from Wyse terminal boards, and those were with mixed logo sizes on the same boards, all clearly quite vintage despite logo size.

(As for condition, I wouldn't use anything that's well corroded and has too much dust inside--it's risky cleaning the metal leaf and around it, because even small deformations can cause inconsistencies with actuation / debounce).
« Last Edit: Fri, 17 February 2017, 11:11:35 by Photoelectric »
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Offline cicada

  • Formerly iamacicada
  • Posts: 288
Re: Re: [GB] E8-V1 Custom TKL - TAKING ORDERS
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 11:44:40 »

I agree, I've had the same experience in terms of logo size going through lots of different batches of Cherry switches.  I've gone through some scratchy Nixdorfs (NOT due to any dirt or debris) and pretty scratchy vintage MX Blacks with large logos.  Also some super smooth MX Browns from a modern Filco but ridiculously scratchy MX Browns from a modern CM Storm keyboard some years ago.  It's a bit about luck, finding a good smooth and clean batch of switches.  Logo size matters not.  Actually some of my smoothest MX Blacks have been from Wyse terminal boards, and those were with mixed logo sizes on the same boards, all clearly quite vintage despite logo size.

(As for condition, I wouldn't use anything that's well corroded and has too much dust inside--it's risky cleaning the metal leaf and around it, because even small deformations can cause inconsistencies with actuation / debounce).

Completely agree, I forgot to say that it wasn't only about condition but also the board itself (like you said - lucky clean batch of switches). Even dusty switches from dirty Wyse boards can turn out amazing!

Offline Faux

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 111
Re: Re: [GB] E8-V1 Custom TKL - TAKING ORDERS
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 14:55:29 »
About Assembly options:

We can support you with:

- Cherry Black from Wyse keyboard: 90s vintage cherry blacks. After desoldering, all switches will be cleaned by Ultrasonic, then tune with Dupont Krytox Lube. (mixed 103 and 205)
- Chery Black from Cherry G80-0577: true 80s vintage blacks, Screw in stabs, fully cleaned and tuned

Old Cherry switches only available for orders with full tuning (lube, spring swap, w or w/o stickers, hotswap LEDs) and not for sale separately. We only use Krytox lube, mixing from 103 and 205.

can any vintage blacks expert please enlighten us plebs on the finer differences between 80s and 90s switches?

Basically, around 1994-1995, Cherry (they have officially confirmed this) changed the material used for the switches. Typically, switches made in the 1980's are considered vintage since these are all before the material change. Ones afterwards are still smooth, but not on the same level as the 1980 ones. However, there are some occasional ones from 1996 which are also very smooth which makes sense as a lot of the vintage boards were not consistent and often time had a mix of switches. Many people claim that the logo is the best indicator of a vintage switch, as in big logo = vintage. I find this to be false and even chyrosran has a video where he disproves this. The best indicator is PCB date, and even still there are some outliers. Hopefully this helped.

Note that the smoothness of the switches also depends on the condition they were found. Without cleaning, they can be inconsistent and unreliable, unless you've got some really nice NIB vintage blacks to begin with (still scratchy tbh). Adding very thin lube to the right spots on the stem/spring can be pretty magical :). In my experience, if tuned right and carefully, 80s or 90s will be somewhat the same, buttery smooth without the greasy/sluggish feeling that usually comes with lube and are miles better than the famous Nixdorfs - which is also VERY good naturally but the inconsistency throws me off - which is why I always have my Cherry switches lubed and springs swapped.

Big logo do not equate vintage as I know Cherry changed their moulds from time to time. There are variations in sizes/placement of the Cherry text and logo on vintage/old blacks. However I notice that 80s blacks tend to have that larger text and logo (with the letter Y being very close to the cherries).

Completely agree. I just came across 5 NIB vintage cherry boards from 1986, all with vintage blacks. They feel so much smoother than ones from an ancient wyse board which leads me to think that the whole wear argument isn't as important as some people purport it to be.

Offline Photoelectric

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Re: Re: [GB] E8-V1 Custom TKL - TAKING ORDERS
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 15:07:20 »
Not to completely derail this thread (we should probably move this discussion to Keyboards), but most definitely well-used switches in good condition that have smoothed out due to friction will be indistinguishable from switches that were smooth to begin with.  And there are many degrees of that in between.  It's more likely that you just happened to get specific switches that were smooth, but not all were like that.
- Keyboards: LZ-GH (Jailhouse Blues)M65-a, MIRA SE, E8-V1, MOON TKL, CA66
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Offline Captainbuttmonkey

  • Posts: 319
  • Location: UK
Re: Re: [GB] E8-V1 Custom TKL - TAKING ORDERS
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 15:41:59 »
About Assembly options:

We can support you with:

- Cherry Black from Wyse keyboard: 90s vintage cherry blacks. After desoldering, all switches will be cleaned by Ultrasonic, then tune with Dupont Krytox Lube. (mixed 103 and 205)
- Chery Black from Cherry G80-0577: true 80s vintage blacks, Screw in stabs, fully cleaned and tuned

Old Cherry switches only available for orders with full tuning (lube, spring swap, w or w/o stickers, hotswap LEDs) and not for sale separately. We only use Krytox lube, mixing from 103 and 205.

can any vintage blacks expert please enlighten us plebs on the finer differences between 80s and 90s switches?

Basically, around 1994-1995, Cherry (they have officially confirmed this) changed the material used for the switches. Typically, switches made in the 1980's are considered vintage since these are all before the material change. Ones afterwards are still smooth, but not on the same level as the 1980 ones. However, there are some occasional ones from 1996 which are also very smooth which makes sense as a lot of the vintage boards were not consistent and often time had a mix of switches. Many people claim that the logo is the best indicator of a vintage switch, as in big logo = vintage. I find this to be false and even chyrosran has a video where he disproves this. The best indicator is PCB date, and even still there are some outliers. Hopefully this helped.

Hey man, I'm not trying to be a douche but could you point me to the source for Cherry officially confirming this? I'd be pretty interested to have a read =].

In this Q&A they seem to confirm that this is actually not the case?....

http://www.corsair.com/en-us/blog/2014/march/cherry-faq-answers

Offline Photoelectric

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  • Posts: 6766
Re: Discussion about vintage Cherry switches, cont'd from E8-V1 GB thread.
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 15:52:53 »
Moved this discussion here from page 4 of the E8-V1 GB thread  https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=87572.150
- Keyboards: LZ-GH (Jailhouse Blues)M65-a, MIRA SE, E8-V1, MOON TKL, CA66
- Keyboard Case Painting Tips -
- Join Mechanical Keyboards photography group on Flickr -

Offline Faux

  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 111
Re: Re: [GB] E8-V1 Custom TKL - TAKING ORDERS
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 16:33:25 »
About Assembly options:

We can support you with:

- Cherry Black from Wyse keyboard: 90s vintage cherry blacks. After desoldering, all switches will be cleaned by Ultrasonic, then tune with Dupont Krytox Lube. (mixed 103 and 205)
- Chery Black from Cherry G80-0577: true 80s vintage blacks, Screw in stabs, fully cleaned and tuned

Old Cherry switches only available for orders with full tuning (lube, spring swap, w or w/o stickers, hotswap LEDs) and not for sale separately. We only use Krytox lube, mixing from 103 and 205.

can any vintage blacks expert please enlighten us plebs on the finer differences between 80s and 90s switches?

Basically, around 1994-1995, Cherry (they have officially confirmed this) changed the material used for the switches. Typically, switches made in the 1980's are considered vintage since these are all before the material change. Ones afterwards are still smooth, but not on the same level as the 1980 ones. However, there are some occasional ones from 1996 which are also very smooth which makes sense as a lot of the vintage boards were not consistent and often time had a mix of switches. Many people claim that the logo is the best indicator of a vintage switch, as in big logo = vintage. I find this to be false and even chyrosran has a video where he disproves this. The best indicator is PCB date, and even still there are some outliers. Hopefully this helped.

Hey man, I'm not trying to be a douche but could you point me to the source for Cherry officially confirming this? I'd be pretty interested to have a read =].

In this Q&A they seem to confirm that this is actually not the case?....

http://www.corsair.com/en-us/blog/2014/march/cherry-faq-answers

Ah, I see I misquoted them. It wasn't cherry who confirmed it, but enthusiasts have ran material tests.

https://deskthority.net/photos-f62/cherry-mx-old-vs-new-t139.html

Offline Captainbuttmonkey

  • Posts: 319
  • Location: UK
Re: Re: [GB] E8-V1 Custom TKL - TAKING ORDERS
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 17:39:19 »
About Assembly options:

We can support you with:

- Cherry Black from Wyse keyboard: 90s vintage cherry blacks. After desoldering, all switches will be cleaned by Ultrasonic, then tune with Dupont Krytox Lube. (mixed 103 and 205)
- Chery Black from Cherry G80-0577: true 80s vintage blacks, Screw in stabs, fully cleaned and tuned

Old Cherry switches only available for orders with full tuning (lube, spring swap, w or w/o stickers, hotswap LEDs) and not for sale separately. We only use Krytox lube, mixing from 103 and 205.

can any vintage blacks expert please enlighten us plebs on the finer differences between 80s and 90s switches?

Basically, around 1994-1995, Cherry (they have officially confirmed this) changed the material used for the switches. Typically, switches made in the 1980's are considered vintage since these are all before the material change. Ones afterwards are still smooth, but not on the same level as the 1980 ones. However, there are some occasional ones from 1996 which are also very smooth which makes sense as a lot of the vintage boards were not consistent and often time had a mix of switches. Many people claim that the logo is the best indicator of a vintage switch, as in big logo = vintage. I find this to be false and even chyrosran has a video where he disproves this. The best indicator is PCB date, and even still there are some outliers. Hopefully this helped.

Hey man, I'm not trying to be a douche but could you point me to the source for Cherry officially confirming this? I'd be pretty interested to have a read =].

In this Q&A they seem to confirm that this is actually not the case?....

http://www.corsair.com/en-us/blog/2014/march/cherry-faq-answers

Ah, I see I misquoted them. It wasn't cherry who confirmed it, but enthusiasts have ran material tests.

https://deskthority.net/photos-f62/cherry-mx-old-vs-new-t139.html

I see, I don't see any evidence of material tests and their results in that thread aside from the op saying: 'Material tests have confirmed that MX switches changed sometime between 1994 and 1995.'

From my limited knowledge this has been one of those long standing arguments for quite a while. With people swearing by the supposed different construction and smoothness of 'vintage blacks'. I'm more than happy to be proved wrong and I would love somebody to link or provide me with some info that does so, but I'm pretty sure the main reason for vintage blacks being smoother is years of use. Especially as Cherry have said there has been no change in materials etc. I haven't personally tried a vintage black as I have never bought one so I can't comment on the difference in smoothness. I don't doubt there probably is some difference between batches and those that are older I can imagine would be smoother, as I said previously however I think this is down to age and the tolerance of the manufacturing process. People have commented saying there have been smooth and scratchy blacks from an assortment of years with an assortment of logos which would again back up my view. If people reading disagree or have something to disprove what I've said I would love to hear/see it. Again I really don't mean to come across as argumentative/douchey but I just don't buy it =S.

Offline cicada

  • Formerly iamacicada
  • Posts: 288
Re: Discussion about vintage Cherry switches, cont'd from E8-V1 GB thread.
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 17 February 2017, 23:57:34 »
Fair point. But you need to try them yourself to know. For me, the difference is day and night and I couldn't achieve vintage's smoothness with new MX blacks (after cleaning, re-applying lube even a scratchy vintage black will be noticeably smoother than a cleaned, lubed new MX black). Some vintage blacks and new Cherrys come pre-lubed from factory (although I always clean and re-tune them anyway).

HaaTa did some analysis here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=86195.msg2314319#msg2314319 and the general assumption is that vintage blacks are smoother. One could always argue its because of years of using and wear down/break in but NIB old blacks aren't scratchy like the new ones. It could be either quality control/materials used/designs or any other factors but the difference is definitely there.
« Last Edit: Sat, 18 February 2017, 00:02:55 by iamacicada »

Offline Captainbuttmonkey

  • Posts: 319
  • Location: UK
Re: Discussion about vintage Cherry switches, cont'd from E8-V1 GB thread.
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 18 February 2017, 16:37:53 »
Fair point. But you need to try them yourself to know. For me, the difference is day and night and I couldn't achieve vintage's smoothness with new MX blacks (after cleaning, re-applying lube even a scratchy vintage black will be noticeably smoother than a cleaned, lubed new MX black). Some vintage blacks and new Cherrys come pre-lubed from factory (although I always clean and re-tune them anyway).

HaaTa did some analysis here: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=86195.msg2314319#msg2314319 and the general assumption is that vintage blacks are smoother. One could always argue its because of years of using and wear down/break in but NIB old blacks aren't scratchy like the new ones. It could be either quality control/materials used/designs or any other factors but the difference is definitely there.

Oh you're absolutely right that I need to try them. I'm pretty curious to see what they feel like. Even if my theory/opinion is completely correct/incorrect I'd like to feel for myself. 'After cleaning, re-applying lube even a scratchy vintage black will be noticeably smoother than a cleaned, lubed new MX black'. Again what you are saying here is pretty much just your opinion from your experience dude. I have heard people say that they have had scratchy vintage and smooth new and that a new has been just as, if not more smooth than a vintage (I do however accept that the general consensus seems to be that if you took an average of each the vintage would have a greater 'smoothness' than a new). Hmm I looked at that and it's definitely interesting however again he doesn't give much insight into his methodology and the sample size of 4 presses on one switch of each is so ridiculously small that the data is almost irrelevant. The general assumption yes, but that is exactly what it is, an assumption. It seems strange that there is this notion that the vintage blacks are smoother but nobody can pinpoint why and Cherry have said there has been no change in the material =S. The only logical conclusion I see is the years of use and quality control =S. Sorry to keep harping on but again I have heard of a fair few cases where people have had NIB old blacks that have been scratchy like the new ones. I really fear that I'm coming across as somebody looking for an argument here/just ignoring everything you're saying. I promise I'm not, I'm just really interested to get to the bottom of it haha. Maybe I'm just a bit too cynical of people's perception and the desire there can be from people to believe something/consensus, I don't know. I should probably try and run some tests of my own.

Offline Prince Valiant

  • Posts: 48
Re: Discussion about vintage Cherry switches, cont'd from E8-V1 GB thread.
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 19 February 2017, 11:34:17 »
Oh you're absolutely right that I need to try them. I'm pretty curious to see what they feel like. Even if my theory/opinion is completely correct/incorrect I'd like to feel for myself. 'After cleaning, re-applying lube even a scratchy vintage black will be noticeably smoother than a cleaned, lubed new MX black'. Again what you are saying here is pretty much just your opinion from your experience dude. I have heard people say that they have had scratchy vintage and smooth new and that a new has been just as, if not more smooth than a vintage (I do however accept that the general consensus seems to be that if you took an average of each the vintage would have a greater 'smoothness' than a new). Hmm I looked at that and it's definitely interesting however again he doesn't give much insight into his methodology and the sample size of 4 presses on one switch of each is so ridiculously small that the data is almost irrelevant. The general assumption yes, but that is exactly what it is, an assumption. It seems strange that there is this notion that the vintage blacks are smoother but nobody can pinpoint why and Cherry have said there has been no change in the material =S. The only logical conclusion I see is the years of use and quality control =S. Sorry to keep harping on but again I have heard of a fair few cases where people have had NIB old blacks that have been scratchy like the new ones. I really fear that I'm coming across as somebody looking for an argument here/just ignoring everything you're saying. I promise I'm not, I'm just really interested to get to the bottom of it haha. Maybe I'm just a bit too cynical of people's perception and the desire there can be from people to believe something/consensus, I don't know. I should probably try and run some tests of my own.
The way I see it, you've got three options.

Option 1:
Source 1000 or so vintage blacks. Ensure that you're getting switches from multiple batches and both used and unused switches. Optionally, choose a sample size you deem acceptable.
Do the same for new switches.
Mark every switch, be sure to denote vintage unused & used/new switches.
Measure force required for each switch and sort to groups accordingly.
Obtain outside testers.
Break switches into sample groups for testers. Be certain to avoid influencing testers and keep your switch log out of their mitts.
Test the feel of each switch multiple times (perhaps 10 - 50?). Have testers keep a log of thoughts on the feel of each press for each switch.
Remeasure force required after every x switch presses (10?), logging any changes. Have testers start new log every time this is done.
Rotate switch groups between testers after each sampling is complete.
Repeat steps 7 & 8 after cleaning/lubing switches.
Compile and analyze data.


Option 2:
Buying two vintage black boards (new/unused and used) and new and used non-vintage boards. Test under similar conditions to option 1. Log keys instead of individually marking switches. Place keyboards in boxes with cutouts if concerned that it might influence testers.

Option 3:
Obtain boards as per option 2, reduce rigorous testing to casual switch pressing comparison by yourself and/or with some pals.

I have my doubts that the first is possible at this point. The second option ought to satisfy your empirical-ness while seeming more feasible. The third isn't serious business but it's easier, quicker, and probably the most relevant for finding out how you think they feel :p.

Offline Captainbuttmonkey

  • Posts: 319
  • Location: UK
Re: Discussion about vintage Cherry switches, cont'd from E8-V1 GB thread.
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 19 February 2017, 17:52:47 »
Oh you're absolutely right that I need to try them. I'm pretty curious to see what they feel like. Even if my theory/opinion is completely correct/incorrect I'd like to feel for myself. 'After cleaning, re-applying lube even a scratchy vintage black will be noticeably smoother than a cleaned, lubed new MX black'. Again what you are saying here is pretty much just your opinion from your experience dude. I have heard people say that they have had scratchy vintage and smooth new and that a new has been just as, if not more smooth than a vintage (I do however accept that the general consensus seems to be that if you took an average of each the vintage would have a greater 'smoothness' than a new). Hmm I looked at that and it's definitely interesting however again he doesn't give much insight into his methodology and the sample size of 4 presses on one switch of each is so ridiculously small that the data is almost irrelevant. The general assumption yes, but that is exactly what it is, an assumption. It seems strange that there is this notion that the vintage blacks are smoother but nobody can pinpoint why and Cherry have said there has been no change in the material =S. The only logical conclusion I see is the years of use and quality control =S. Sorry to keep harping on but again I have heard of a fair few cases where people have had NIB old blacks that have been scratchy like the new ones. I really fear that I'm coming across as somebody looking for an argument here/just ignoring everything you're saying. I promise I'm not, I'm just really interested to get to the bottom of it haha. Maybe I'm just a bit too cynical of people's perception and the desire there can be from people to believe something/consensus, I don't know. I should probably try and run some tests of my own.
The way I see it, you've got three options.

Option 1:
Source 1000 or so vintage blacks. Ensure that you're getting switches from multiple batches and both used and unused switches. Optionally, choose a sample size you deem acceptable.
Do the same for new switches.
Mark every switch, be sure to denote vintage unused & used/new switches.
Measure force required for each switch and sort to groups accordingly.
Obtain outside testers.
Break switches into sample groups for testers. Be certain to avoid influencing testers and keep your switch log out of their mitts.
Test the feel of each switch multiple times (perhaps 10 - 50?). Have testers keep a log of thoughts on the feel of each press for each switch.
Remeasure force required after every x switch presses (10?), logging any changes. Have testers start new log every time this is done.
Rotate switch groups between testers after each sampling is complete.
Repeat steps 7 & 8 after cleaning/lubing switches.
Compile and analyze data.


Option 2:
Buying two vintage black boards (new/unused and used) and new and used non-vintage boards. Test under similar conditions to option 1. Log keys instead of individually marking switches. Place keyboards in boxes with cutouts if concerned that it might influence testers.

Option 3:
Obtain boards as per option 2, reduce rigorous testing to casual switch pressing comparison by yourself and/or with some pals.

I have my doubts that the first is possible at this point. The second option ought to satisfy your empirical-ness while seeming more feasible. The third isn't serious business but it's easier, quicker, and probably the most relevant for finding out how you think they feel :p.

Haha great response man, couldn't have put it better! Unfortunately I don't think I have the time or the wallet for option 1. Options 2 and 3 also require the purchase of 4 boards which I'm somewhat reluctant to do =P. To be honest the most likely thing is I will pick up a few vintage blacks if I stumble across some, to satisfy my curiosity. If they are as good as many people claim then maybe I will go with option 2 or 3 further down the line haha. To be honest though I really like Gateron blacks. They feel pretty damn smooth to me and I don't notice/am not bothered by the supposed wobble =S. I've also got some of those Invyr pandas on the way and they are supposed to be somewhere in between the two I believe? Either way it will be interesting to give them a go =].