Unpopular Keyboard Opinions

[Niomosy]

Hmm… the thing about the size of tenkeyless keyboards… there's a point in that, but the layout itself _is_ dumb.

The "standard" tenkeyless copied from IBM Model M [SSK] has the gaps and keys placed, so that it facilitates typewriter legacy users, and makes functions easy to find for n00bs. Horribly inefficient.

Meanwhile, something like Symbolics' Lisp-machine keyboards or even Kinesis Advantage has more or less the same form factor, but a so much better layout.

The Symbolics layout isn't bad but it's odd with some bracket duplication keys where the current backspace is typically located.  It also has a load of extra keys that would be better served replaced with currently useful keys.  Something like a 96 key or 1800 style layout would end up being an equivalent for modern computing.

The Kinesis Advantage layout isn't bad but suffers from layout issues that constrain every symmetric split board out there; you're putting some of the right-hand keys in odd locations to get that symmetry.  For the majority, this probably isn't a problem as long as you don't need the various brackets which are usually the target of relocation to odd places.

[davkol]

The Symbolics layout isn't bad but it's odd with some bracket duplication keys where the current backspace is typically located.  It also has a load of extra keys that would be better served replaced with currently useful keys.  Something like a 96 key or 1800 style layout would end up being an equivalent for modern computing.

IBM CUA and what has come after it is a dumbed down simplification of an user interface—coming from Lisp machines is a huge downgrade.

The keys in corners are rather pointless, because they're hard to reach anyway, while those keyboards had plenty of fancy features, such as dual-role Shifts, that produced parenthesis on tap, or the famous layer-like stuff for accessing loads of various symbols.

A tenkey is quite pointless too, while at it.

The Kinesis Advantage layout isn't bad but suffers from layout issues that constrain every symmetric split board out there; you're putting some of the right-hand keys in odd locations to get that symmetry.

You're confusing symbols with keys, and assuming that the placement from standard US QWERTY is right—it's not, you're just used to it.

[Niomosy]

The Symbolics layout isn't bad but it's odd with some bracket duplication keys where the current backspace is typically located.  It also has a load of extra keys that would be better served replaced with currently useful keys.  Something like a 96 key or 1800 style layout would end up being an equivalent for modern computing.

IBM CUA and what has come after it is a dumbed down simplification of an user interface—coming from Lisp machines is a huge downgrade.

The keys in corners are rather pointless, because they're hard to reach anyway, while those keyboards had plenty of fancy features, such as dual-role Shifts, that produced parenthesis on tap, or the famous layer-like stuff for accessing loads of various symbols.

A tenkey is quite pointless too, while at it.

The Kinesis Advantage layout isn't bad but suffers from layout issues that constrain every symmetric split board out there; you're putting some of the right-hand keys in odd locations to get that symmetry.

You're confusing symbols with keys, and assuming that the placement from standard US QWERTY is right—it's not, you're just used to it.

The layers are interesting but not overly needed for most when the vast majority of people could probably do everything they need on a 75% board without complaining about lack of keys - with the note that heavy number crunchers are going to need a numpad.  Personally, I still have a heavy preference for entering numbers on the numpad.  It's easier to fly through number entry that way.  Not that I have to very often but it's nice to have when I need it.

As for the Kinesis, the bracket keys end up down on the right-side arrow cluster area making their location more inconvenient than on Qwerty, Colemak, and even Dvorak layouts.  If anything, the Ergodox offers a decent solution that symmetric keyboards create with the additional inner column per side.  I've noticed some using the upper keys for the brackets in some instances. 

[gerdo]

How anyone can type on sculpted SA is beyond me

[poq]

How anyone can type on sculpted SA is beyond me

1. Place finger on key
2. Press down
3. Repeat

[Joey Quinn]

How anyone can type on sculpted SA is beyond me

If you have good typing form it's easy, if you have weird typing habits it for sure can cause you to struggle a bit.

Unless you were talking about how the keycaps feel.

[blighty]

After about 3 weeks of typing on it, I really like the Microsoft Surface Ergonomic Keyboard.  It's currently my favorite board.  It took the lead from my LZ ergo board.  It feels great to type on, games decently (6kro), and is wireless via bluetooth.  I don't really like the tenkey attached, but it's a great board to type on if you have the desk space.

[davkol]

The layers are interesting but not overly needed for most when the vast majority of people could probably do everything they need on a 75% board without complaining about lack of keys - with the note that heavy number crunchers are going to need a numpad.

Most people are (a) n00bs and/or (b) stuck with cheap, more or less standardized commodity keyboards, MS Office and some defaults. The latter is forced by monopolies. Of course that requires high conformity.

I don't consider it relevant to the discussion, though.

Personally, I still have a heavy preference for entering numbers on the numpad.  It's easier to fly through number entry that way.  Not that I have to very often but it's nice to have when I need it.

The Model M's numpad isn't the only number layout out there, however.

It's okay in some ways, and in case of something like the aforementioned Kinesis Advantage (or even TypeMatrix), it can be easily embedded in the main section of the keyboard.

I, for one, prefer a (differently arranged) number row, that allows me to use both hands without jumping between rows.

There are other approaches too.

As for the Kinesis, the bracket keys end up down on the right-side arrow cluster area making their location more inconvenient than on Qwerty, Colemak, and even Dvorak layouts.  If anything, the Ergodox offers a decent solution that symmetric keyboards create with the additional inner column per side.  I've noticed some using the upper keys for the brackets in some instances. 

Again, you're making assumptions based on default keymap/labels.

The brackets, for example, are placed in a corner or at an edge of the keyboard section, because they're rather uncommon: basically just arrays/parameters in some programming languages or tags in some markups. In either case, a good software environment at least automatically inserts closing brackets/tags, or better—abstracts away from "brute-force" typing (e.g., has a command/macro for making text bold).

Furthermore, keymaps (software or firmware) can be changed. On my keyboards, brackets/parenthesis are placed on a layer directly on the home row. I previously had them in the corners, middle (ErgoDox, wide-mod staggered layout) or bottom (Kinesis Advantage), but eventually stopped using those positions altogether, because of it required extra movements of the whole hand, or awkward stretching/curling fingers; I'm not a Tiproman (aka The Angry Chocolate Bar).

[Niomosy]

Most people are where the keyboards are going to be sold.  Most people are going to be the reason for a layout prevalence.  I feel that's important to the discussion.  I tend to prefer to stick to standards when possible and adjust when I need.  In terms of keyboards, a full size board fills just about all my needs.  Throw in some dedicated media keys on the left size or top-left and I'm set.

Sure, the numpad can be embedded.  For me, I'm on staggered keyboards so a regular numpad of some kind of most heavily preferred.  Given I've already got a full size board, I'm set there.  I can get by on a TKL and have done so but having the numpad is nice.

A good programming environment can help but it's no good with I'm dealing with those things at the command line or in a basic editor like vi where we don't have vim installed on the server.  Partially helpful, sure.  Remapping isn't bad on the Ergodox but not that great on the Advantage.  The best board here is the Freestyle 2 if I want an ergo split board.  Eliminate the symmetry and you eliminate lots of problems.  For a bonus, the left hand keys are great for dedicated media keys so I can adjust the volume while gaming. 

Keys can be changed in many cases.  It's not really a problem for me, though.  I use a full size keyboard and have not bothered with the various symmetric boards.  If I eventually decide to get a tented/split board, I'll get a Kinesis Freestyle 2.  I have no real need for an Ergodox or Kinesis Advantage. 

[DaBubbs]

1. RF being the only ones with 55g Topre.
2. In fact, I wish there were even higher options with Topre... maybe a 65g or 75g.
3. Lack of options with some types of keycap sets that I like... Topre and MX Cherry especially.

Well, I guess #3 may not be unpopular... I am sure we all would like more options.

[lakiozoon]

Keyboards without winkey aren't worth considering.   

[poq]

Keyboards without winkey aren't worth considering.   

They're only worth considering if you have Control in the proper place, otherwise I can't interact properly with my computer.

[ComandaPanda]

WKL layout is best, HHKB layout best, 60, TKL, Fullsize is best. Ergodox best, VE.A sux

65%, 75%, 96-layout, 1800 layout all sux.

PBT is best, GMK sux.

Gateron switches sux, vintage Cherry is best.

[iFreilicht]

Keyboards without winkey aren't worth considering.   

They're only worth considering if you have Control in the proper place, otherwise I can't interact properly with my computer.

Same for me but with winkey. How am I supposed to move my windows?

[poq]

Keyboards without winkey aren't worth considering.   

They're only worth considering if you have Control in the proper place, otherwise I can't interact properly with my computer.

Same for me but with winkey. How am I supposed to move my windows?

That's what i meant, have control instead of caps and rebind where control would be on bottom row to super

[Pretendo]

1) If you have the desktop space, your keyboard should have a numpad.

2) The proper desktop layout is as follows:  mouse on the left, alphanumeric keys center, directionals to the right, and numpad off to the far right.  It's not that hard to use the mouse on the left after a little bit of practice, and this will solve all of your numpad gripes (and keep people away from your workstation!)

3) Scissor switch boards can feel great.  My favorite are those built into the Lenovo Thinkpads (even after they went island style.)

4) It doesn't matter what type of Enter key you have.  Big-ass, tall, long...  you'll get used to it.

[xtrafrood]

1) If you have the desktop space, your keyboard should have a numpad.

2) The proper desktop layout is as follows:  mouse on the left, alphanumeric keys center, directionals to the right, and numpad off to the far right.  It's not that hard to use the mouse on the left after a little bit of practice, and this will solve all of your numpad gripes (and keep people away from your workstation!)

3) Scissor switch boards can feel great.  My favorite are those built into the Lenovo Thinkpads (even after they went island style.)

4) It doesn't matter what type of Enter key you have.  Big-ass, tall, long...  you'll get used to it.

Another left handed mouse user nice. These days I prefer trackball on the left and mouse or Wacom on the right but I can get by with just one mouse if need be.

[Pretendo]

1) If you have the desktop space, your keyboard should have a numpad.

2) The proper desktop layout is as follows:  mouse on the left, alphanumeric keys center, directionals to the right, and numpad off to the far right.  It's not that hard to use the mouse on the left after a little bit of practice, and this will solve all of your numpad gripes (and keep people away from your workstation!)

3) Scissor switch boards can feel great.  My favorite are those built into the Lenovo Thinkpads (even after they went island style.)

4) It doesn't matter what type of Enter key you have.  Big-ass, tall, long...  you'll get used to it.

Another left handed mouse user nice. These days I prefer trackball on the left and mouse or Wacom on the right but I can get by with just one mouse if need be.

Left handed mouse setup is the only way to be!  A trackball setup is on my "to try" list. For now, I just use a plain Jane laser mouse set to the highest DPI possible.

[keycapper]

Nobody needs more than a 60% board.  There, I said it.

[Niomosy]

Nobody needs more than a 60% board.  There, I said it.

No one needs air to breath either.  They want air to breath so they don't die of lack of oxygen.

That said, dedicated F keys and arrow keys or GTFO.

[Elrick]

That said, dedicated F keys and arrow keys or GTFO.

As ALWAYS  .

ONLY fvcking numb nuts who use 60% keyboards are Dell or some other pre-made PC users, that don't even know about a bios and how to use one.

So glad to use keyboards with the basic keys needed to tunnel back into any bios to alter the voltages when needed  .

[PotatoTM]

SP keycaps are not high quality/consistent enough to justify its price, IMO their price is that high because they have the monopoly that allows them to do it. I have yet to try GMK caps but I hope their keys are more consistent/well built than SP's

[poq]

That said, dedicated F keys and arrow keys or GTFO.

As ALWAYS  .

ONLY fvcking numb nuts who use 60% keyboards are Dell or some other pre-made PC users, that don't even know about a bios and how to use one.

So glad to use keyboards with the basic keys needed to tunnel back into any bios to alter the voltages when needed  .

Uhhhhh... no? Keys needed to access bios are usually Del or F2, and pretty much any bios on consumer hardware (not OEM stuff, real hardware) post-2012 supports a mouse anyway. You're not some l33t h4xor because you can OC. I'd argue that kind of crowd is *more* likely to have a 60%, as those interested in bios access almost certainly have an interest in computer hardware and peripherals.

People who use OEM systems are far less likely to use a 60% because it's too different from what they're used to.

[xtrafrood]

That said, dedicated F keys and arrow keys or GTFO.

As ALWAYS  .

ONLY fvcking numb nuts who use 60% keyboards are Dell or some other pre-made PC users, that don't even know about a bios and how to use one.

So glad to use keyboards with the basic keys needed to tunnel back into any bios to alter the voltages when needed  .

Uhhhhh... no? Keys needed to access bios are usually Del or F2, and pretty much any bios on consumer hardware (not OEM stuff, real hardware) post-2012 supports a mouse anyway. You're not some l33t h4xor because you can OC. I'd argue that kind of crowd is *more* likely to have a 60%, as those interested in bios access almost certainly have an interest in computer hardware and peripherals.

People who use OEM systems are far less likely to use a 60% because it's too different from what they're used to.

Man, I'm using a full-sized keyboard and I've nearly run out of keys to use with i3wm let alone MMOs and other programs that need shortcuts. Sure a 60% won't have the same flexing/wobbling problems but I still can't understand how people can use a keyboard without an F row as a daily driver. I can remap a keyboard but I'm not sure I can remap my brain after so many years of full sized boards

[SBJ]

Man, I'm using a full-sized keyboard and I've nearly run out of keys to use with i3wm let alone MMOs and other programs that need shortcuts. Sure a 60% won't have the same flexing/wobbling problems but I still can't understand how people can use a keyboard without an F row as a daily driver. I can remap a keyboard but I'm not sure I can remap my brain after so many years of full sized boards

Yeah I thought the idea of a 60% sounded good so I wished for one for christmas. Was utterly unusable in my day to day activities. I need those dedicated arrow keys. I use them too much.

[mrduul]

MX Cherry Blues...no thanks.

[poq]

That said, dedicated F keys and arrow keys or GTFO.

As ALWAYS  .

ONLY fvcking numb nuts who use 60% keyboards are Dell or some other pre-made PC users, that don't even know about a bios and how to use one.

So glad to use keyboards with the basic keys needed to tunnel back into any bios to alter the voltages when needed  .

Uhhhhh... no? Keys needed to access bios are usually Del or F2, and pretty much any bios on consumer hardware (not OEM stuff, real hardware) post-2012 supports a mouse anyway. You're not some l33t h4xor because you can OC. I'd argue that kind of crowd is *more* likely to have a 60%, as those interested in bios access almost certainly have an interest in computer hardware and peripherals.

People who use OEM systems are far less likely to use a 60% because it's too different from what they're used to.

Man, I'm using a full-sized keyboard and I've nearly run out of keys to use with i3wm let alone MMOs and other programs that need shortcuts. Sure a 60% won't have the same flexing/wobbling problems but I still can't understand how people can use a keyboard without an F row as a daily driver. I can remap a keyboard but I'm not sure I can remap my brain after so many years of full sized boards

That's a lot of binds lol. Not a fan of i3 (xmonad 4 lyfe) and don't play MMOs, only other programs i really use that require shortcuts are Emacs, and with evil-leader that's ezpz. I understand that they're needed for some people, but when people say that sub-TKL layouts are useless as a blanket statement it makes me 

[davkol]

Don't worry, they're just n00bs locked in Microsoft's cage.

They haven't used a real computer. ~_^


photo by webwit

[Niomosy]

That said, dedicated F keys and arrow keys or GTFO.

As ALWAYS  .

ONLY fvcking numb nuts who use 60% keyboards are Dell or some other pre-made PC users, that don't even know about a bios and how to use one.

So glad to use keyboards with the basic keys needed to tunnel back into any bios to alter the voltages when needed  .

Uhhhhh... no? Keys needed to access bios are usually Del or F2, and pretty much any bios on consumer hardware (not OEM stuff, real hardware) post-2012 supports a mouse anyway. You're not some l33t h4xor because you can OC. I'd argue that kind of crowd is *more* likely to have a 60%, as those interested in bios access almost certainly have an interest in computer hardware and peripherals.

People who use OEM systems are far less likely to use a 60% because it's too different from what they're used to.

Man, I'm using a full-sized keyboard and I've nearly run out of keys to use with i3wm let alone MMOs and other programs that need shortcuts. Sure a 60% won't have the same flexing/wobbling problems but I still can't understand how people can use a keyboard without an F row as a daily driver. I can remap a keyboard but I'm not sure I can remap my brain after so many years of full sized boards

I've seen people use 60% boards for tablets.  That makes sense as tablets don't really use F keys in the first place.  I'm not much of a tablet user and most of the use I've had for it surrounded web surfing with very little typing needed.  For those small bits of typing, the on-screen keyboard was sufficient.  Thus I really don't have a need for a 60% board.  I could use one if I had to but I heavily prefer a larger keyboard at 75% or larger and really wouldn't mind if some company made a ready-built ANSI 122-key keyboard.

[Applet]

The 60% struggle is real. I had to add numpad "+" and "-" to my function layer to be able to OC an old PC, but it's rarely an issue (i3wm for life tho)

[Pretendo]

I honestly don't understand 60% at all.  If you're very short on space (like in a cubicle keyboard tray), I could understand going tenkeyless, but 60% only saves you an inch and change on TKL.  Nobody's desktop is tiny enough to need that extra inch.

Is the selling point that you're moving your hands less because all of the functions are layered over the alpha block?  You can still create those layers on a TKL or full size board, and then have the nav cluster and/or numpad when you need it.  Is it some sort of feng shui minimalist appeal?  Fine, but then you can't really argue that it's a more functional board.  It's just an art piece at that point.  Travel allot but don't want to give up your full sized key switches?  This makes the most sense to me, but you really couldn't squeeze a TKL into your bag?

Please, explain what I'm missing.

[xtrafrood]

That said, dedicated F keys and arrow keys or GTFO.

As ALWAYS  .

ONLY fvcking numb nuts who use 60% keyboards are Dell or some other pre-made PC users, that don't even know about a bios and how to use one.

So glad to use keyboards with the basic keys needed to tunnel back into any bios to alter the voltages when needed  .

Uhhhhh... no? Keys needed to access bios are usually Del or F2, and pretty much any bios on consumer hardware (not OEM stuff, real hardware) post-2012 supports a mouse anyway. You're not some l33t h4xor because you can OC. I'd argue that kind of crowd is *more* likely to have a 60%, as those interested in bios access almost certainly have an interest in computer hardware and peripherals.

People who use OEM systems are far less likely to use a 60% because it's too different from what they're used to.

Man, I'm using a full-sized keyboard and I've nearly run out of keys to use with i3wm let alone MMOs and other programs that need shortcuts. Sure a 60% won't have the same flexing/wobbling problems but I still can't understand how people can use a keyboard without an F row as a daily driver. I can remap a keyboard but I'm not sure I can remap my brain after so many years of full sized boards

I've seen people use 60% boards for tablets.  That makes sense as tablets don't really use F keys in the first place.  I'm not much of a tablet user and most of the use I've had for it surrounded web surfing with very little typing needed.  For those small bits of typing, the on-screen keyboard was sufficient.  Thus I really don't have a need for a 60% board.  I could use one if I had to but I heavily prefer a larger keyboard at 75% or larger and really wouldn't mind if some company made a ready-built ANSI 122-key keyboard.

Now that makes sense to me. I forgot about the tablet aspect of 60% usage. I would totally opt out of most keyboard/touchpad/tablet case combo things

[Applet]

Is the selling point that you're moving your hands less because all of the functions are layered over the alpha block?

For me, yes. I find the 60% more ergonomic because I move my hands less. Sure I could have a programmable TKL that still retains the keys that I don't use, but I don't see the point of that.

[davkol]

I honestly don't understand 60% at all.  If you're very short on space (like in a cubicle keyboard tray), I could understand going tenkeyless, but 60% only saves you an inch and change on TKL.  Nobody's desktop is tiny enough to need that extra inch.

60% saves over 3×19 mm (assuming standard spacing), that's the width of a narrow mouse.

The average person has ca. 45cm wide shoulders. Upper arms are relaxed, when more or less in parallel with the body. A tenkeyless keyboard is 35 cm wide. That leaves ca. 10-15 cm for mousing. Otherwise, you have to spread the arms outwards, which isn't ergonomic.

If someone uses low mouse sensitivity (like CS players do), even a 60% keyboard can be a bit too wide.

Travel allot but don't want to give up your full sized key switches?  This makes the most sense to me, but you really couldn't squeeze a TKL into your bag?

I sometimes use an external keyboard on the top of my laptop, which is 30 cm wide, i.e., the same width as a 65% or 75% keyboard; a standard tenkeyless would overlap.

And yes, a smaller keyboard fits in my backpack better. It also weights less.

Is the selling point that you're moving your hands less because all of the functions are layered over the alpha block?  You can still create those layers on a TKL or full size board, and then have the nav cluster and/or numpad when you need it.

But if you don't need it, there's no reason for it to be there and get in the way, when reaching for the mouse (or other pointing device) or drawing/writing with the right hand.

[poq]

I honestly don't understand 60% at all.  If you're very short on space (like in a cubicle keyboard tray), I could understand going tenkeyless, but 60% only saves you an inch and change on TKL.  Nobody's desktop is tiny enough to need that extra inch.

Is the selling point that you're moving your hands less because all of the functions are layered over the alpha block?  You can still create those layers on a TKL or full size board, and then have the nav cluster and/or numpad when you need it.  Is it some sort of feng shui minimalist appeal?  Fine, but then you can't really argue that it's a more functional board.  It's just an art piece at that point.  Travel allot but don't want to give up your full sized key switches?  This makes the most sense to me, but you really couldn't squeeze a TKL into your bag?

Please, explain what I'm missing.

A 60% is still too big for my required mouse space when playing CS. I need to play on a split 40% to have enough room to move the mouse without hitting the board. I could have the biggest desk in the world but my shoulders can only stretch so far. You see a lot of pros playing with their boards near vertical, because a TKL is still too large for the space they need.

I'll admit a lot of the appeal to me in more compact layouts is the appearance (not really a fan of Poker-style models though), and I've recently started taking a liking to TKL's as well, but you can't tell me that a TKL kept the correct keys. So much wasted space, with keys that I rarely use. I don't need dedicated arrows because I've set up my workflow to not require them, I don't need function keys because what the **** are they even for, and I don't need the nav buttons because I either have their equivalents in emacs or access them rarely enough that a function layer is fine for them. A TKL is also way, way bigger than a 60%, and wouldn't fit in my bag and would like ridiculous on top of my 12' laptop
Of course my use case isn't everyone's, but that's why I use what I do.

I also don't think anyone says they're more functional, more ergonomic maybe but the function is the exact same...

[Niomosy]

Is the selling point that you're moving your hands less because all of the functions are layered over the alpha block?

For me, yes. I find the 60% more ergonomic because I move my hands less. Sure I could have a programmable TKL that still retains the keys that I don't use, but I don't see the point of that.

For me, I find a 60% less ergonomic as it requires excessive chording rather than using a single key.  I'd much rather move my hand than have to go into more 3-key chords or create yet more chordings I'll need to remember (and probably end up forgetting).  For simple things like Shift or Alt it's not bad but just about every standard, TKL, 75%, and 60% keyboard puts the Fn key on the right side which, for gaming, is an absolute **** decision when only my left hand is on the keyboard.

I honestly don't understand 60% at all.  If you're very short on space (like in a cubicle keyboard tray), I could understand going tenkeyless, but 60% only saves you an inch and change on TKL.  Nobody's desktop is tiny enough to need that extra inch.

Is the selling point that you're moving your hands less because all of the functions are layered over the alpha block?  You can still create those layers on a TKL or full size board, and then have the nav cluster and/or numpad when you need it.  Is it some sort of feng shui minimalist appeal?  Fine, but then you can't really argue that it's a more functional board.  It's just an art piece at that point.  Travel allot but don't want to give up your full sized key switches?  This makes the most sense to me, but you really couldn't squeeze a TKL into your bag?

Please, explain what I'm missing.

A 60% is still too big for my required mouse space when playing CS. I need to play on a split 40% to have enough room to move the mouse without hitting the board. I could have the biggest desk in the world but my shoulders can only stretch so far. You see a lot of pros playing with their boards near vertical, because a TKL is still too large for the space they need.

I'll admit a lot of the appeal to me in more compact layouts is the appearance (not really a fan of Poker-style models though), and I've recently started taking a liking to TKL's as well, but you can't tell me that a TKL kept the correct keys. So much wasted space, with keys that I rarely use. I don't need dedicated arrows because I've set up my workflow to not require them, I don't need function keys because what the **** are they even for, and I don't need the nav buttons because I either have their equivalents in emacs or access them rarely enough that a function layer is fine for them. A TKL is also way, way bigger than a 60%, and wouldn't fit in my bag and would like ridiculous on top of my 12' laptop
Of course my use case isn't everyone's, but that's why I use what I do.

I also don't think anyone says they're more functional, more ergonomic maybe but the function is the exact same...

At that point you could probably get something like an Ergodox, the new mech Kinesys Freestyle, or a Matias pro and just scoot the right-hand side of the split away.  Kinesis even suggests it for gaming.

For me, no keys would ever properly replace the arrow keys.  In vim, I can do without them.  In Notepad++ or Atom, not at all.  If anything, I'd simply want them on the left side of the keyboard rather than next to the numpad for home (at work I mouse lefty to ease right forearm pain so the arrow keys on the right side is fine).  It would make web surfing more convenient for hitting Home/End.  I'm also not huge on a TKL as a 75% has basically every key in a compact form.  I'd rather go that route.

[Pretendo]

Is the selling point that you're moving your hands less because all of the functions are layered over the alpha block?

For me, yes. I find the 60% more ergonomic because I move my hands less. Sure I could have a programmable TKL that still retains the keys that I don't use, but I don't see the point of that.

For me, I find a 60% less ergonomic as it requires excessive chording rather than using a single key.  I'd much rather move my hand than have to go into more 3-key chords or create yet more chordings I'll need to remember (and probably end up forgetting).  For simple things like Shift or Alt it's not bad but just about every standard, TKL, 75%, and 60% keyboard puts the Fn key on the right side which, for gaming, is an absolute **** decision when only my left hand is on the keyboard.

I honestly don't understand 60% at all.  If you're very short on space (like in a cubicle keyboard tray), I could understand going tenkeyless, but 60% only saves you an inch and change on TKL.  Nobody's desktop is tiny enough to need that extra inch.

Is the selling point that you're moving your hands less because all of the functions are layered over the alpha block?  You can still create those layers on a TKL or full size board, and then have the nav cluster and/or numpad when you need it.  Is it some sort of feng shui minimalist appeal?  Fine, but then you can't really argue that it's a more functional board.  It's just an art piece at that point.  Travel allot but don't want to give up your full sized key switches?  This makes the most sense to me, but you really couldn't squeeze a TKL into your bag?

Please, explain what I'm missing.

A 60% is still too big for my required mouse space when playing CS. I need to play on a split 40% to have enough room to move the mouse without hitting the board. I could have the biggest desk in the world but my shoulders can only stretch so far. You see a lot of pros playing with their boards near vertical, because a TKL is still too large for the space they need.

I'll admit a lot of the appeal to me in more compact layouts is the appearance (not really a fan of Poker-style models though), and I've recently started taking a liking to TKL's as well, but you can't tell me that a TKL kept the correct keys. So much wasted space, with keys that I rarely use. I don't need dedicated arrows because I've set up my workflow to not require them, I don't need function keys because what the **** are they even for, and I don't need the nav buttons because I either have their equivalents in emacs or access them rarely enough that a function layer is fine for them. A TKL is also way, way bigger than a 60%, and wouldn't fit in my bag and would like ridiculous on top of my 12' laptop
Of course my use case isn't everyone's, but that's why I use what I do.

I also don't think anyone says they're more functional, more ergonomic maybe but the function is the exact same...

At that point you could probably get something like an Ergodox, the new mech Kinesys Freestyle, or a Matias pro and just scoot the right-hand side of the split away.  Kinesis even suggests it for gaming.

For me, no keys would ever properly replace the arrow keys.  In vim, I can do without them.  In Notepad++ or Atom, not at all.  If anything, I'd simply want them on the left side of the keyboard rather than next to the numpad for home (at work I mouse lefty to ease right forearm pain so the arrow keys on the right side is fine).  It would make web surfing more convenient for hitting Home/End.  I'm also not huge on a TKL as a 75% has basically every key in a compact form.  I'd rather go that route.

This is pretty much where I'm at on this.  60% does make a bit more sense in the context of hardcore gaming, but I can't imagine myself being productive with such a compact layout.  Even in the context of gaming, it feels like the extra keys are removed as a concession (to get the mouse closer to the board) rather than as a real feature.  The keyboard still does less at the end of the day.

I'll admit to being environmentally biased toward more keys: I sometimes work professionally on the iSeries (the system that IBM's 122 key battleship was designed to interface with), and even 101/104 key boards require allot of chording when dealing with that system.  F13-F24 requires shift+F1-F12.  The SysRq key is actually used.  The remaining ten buttons were replaced with various difficult to remember shortcuts and labyrinthine menus in the IBM Terminal Emulator. Dealing with that type of stuff would quickly get silly on 60% layouts. I can't even imagine trying to use this system without an arrow cluster.

But even when I'm not dealing with ancient legacy stuff, most IDEs have reams of keyboard shortcuts that seem like they'd be inconvenient to pull off on anything smaller than a TKL board.  It's just not worth it for a bit more free space on my desktop.
For me (and most non-gamers, I'd imagine) the best solution is to just place the mouse on the left: that eliminates the long travel issue and allows me to keep my useful key clusters on the right.  It took less than two weeks for me to pick up left handed mousing, and I'd never go back.

For extreme gaming where, they can probably get a pass (even if a half keyboard is probably more ideal for that.)  However, the HHKB (the most famous 60% board) labels itself as a productivity board for professionals, and that makes no sense to me at all.

[davkol]

For extreme gaming where, they can probably get a pass (even if a half keyboard is probably more ideal for that.)  However, the HHKB (the most famous 60% board) labels itself as a productivity board for professionals, and that makes no sense to me at all.

You're ignoring a big portion of the *nix world.

Eiiti Wada, the original designer of HHKB, is an Emacs user. The list of famous HHKB users includes RMS or Bjarne Stroustrup.

[Niomosy]

Is the selling point that you're moving your hands less because all of the functions are layered over the alpha block?

For me, yes. I find the 60% more ergonomic because I move my hands less. Sure I could have a programmable TKL that still retains the keys that I don't use, but I don't see the point of that.

For me, I find a 60% less ergonomic as it requires excessive chording rather than using a single key.  I'd much rather move my hand than have to go into more 3-key chords or create yet more chordings I'll need to remember (and probably end up forgetting).  For simple things like Shift or Alt it's not bad but just about every standard, TKL, 75%, and 60% keyboard puts the Fn key on the right side which, for gaming, is an absolute **** decision when only my left hand is on the keyboard.

I honestly don't understand 60% at all.  If you're very short on space (like in a cubicle keyboard tray), I could understand going tenkeyless, but 60% only saves you an inch and change on TKL.  Nobody's desktop is tiny enough to need that extra inch.

Is the selling point that you're moving your hands less because all of the functions are layered over the alpha block?  You can still create those layers on a TKL or full size board, and then have the nav cluster and/or numpad when you need it.  Is it some sort of feng shui minimalist appeal?  Fine, but then you can't really argue that it's a more functional board.  It's just an art piece at that point.  Travel allot but don't want to give up your full sized key switches?  This makes the most sense to me, but you really couldn't squeeze a TKL into your bag?

Please, explain what I'm missing.

A 60% is still too big for my required mouse space when playing CS. I need to play on a split 40% to have enough room to move the mouse without hitting the board. I could have the biggest desk in the world but my shoulders can only stretch so far. You see a lot of pros playing with their boards near vertical, because a TKL is still too large for the space they need.

I'll admit a lot of the appeal to me in more compact layouts is the appearance (not really a fan of Poker-style models though), and I've recently started taking a liking to TKL's as well, but you can't tell me that a TKL kept the correct keys. So much wasted space, with keys that I rarely use. I don't need dedicated arrows because I've set up my workflow to not require them, I don't need function keys because what the **** are they even for, and I don't need the nav buttons because I either have their equivalents in emacs or access them rarely enough that a function layer is fine for them. A TKL is also way, way bigger than a 60%, and wouldn't fit in my bag and would like ridiculous on top of my 12' laptop
Of course my use case isn't everyone's, but that's why I use what I do.

I also don't think anyone says they're more functional, more ergonomic maybe but the function is the exact same...

At that point you could probably get something like an Ergodox, the new mech Kinesys Freestyle, or a Matias pro and just scoot the right-hand side of the split away.  Kinesis even suggests it for gaming.

For me, no keys would ever properly replace the arrow keys.  In vim, I can do without them.  In Notepad++ or Atom, not at all.  If anything, I'd simply want them on the left side of the keyboard rather than next to the numpad for home (at work I mouse lefty to ease right forearm pain so the arrow keys on the right side is fine).  It would make web surfing more convenient for hitting Home/End.  I'm also not huge on a TKL as a 75% has basically every key in a compact form.  I'd rather go that route.

This is pretty much where I'm at on this.  60% does make a bit more sense in the context of hardcore gaming, but I can't imagine myself being productive with such a compact layout.  Even in the context of gaming, it feels like the extra keys are removed as a concession (to get the mouse closer to the board) rather than as a real feature.  The keyboard still does less at the end of the day.

I'll admit to being environmentally biased toward more keys: I sometimes work professionally on the iSeries (the system that IBM's 122 key battleship was designed to interface with), and even 101/104 key boards require allot of chording when dealing with that system.  F13-F24 requires shift+F1-F12.  The SysRq key is actually used.  The remaining ten buttons were replaced with various difficult to remember shortcuts and labyrinthine menus in the IBM Terminal Emulator. Dealing with that type of stuff would quickly get silly on 60% layouts. I can't even imagine trying to use this system without an arrow cluster.

But even when I'm not dealing with ancient legacy stuff, most IDEs have reams of keyboard shortcuts that seem like they'd be inconvenient to pull off on anything smaller than a TKL board.  It's just not worth it for a bit more free space on my desktop.
For me (and most non-gamers, I'd imagine) the best solution is to just place the mouse on the left: that eliminates the long travel issue and allows me to keep my useful key clusters on the right.  It took less than two weeks for me to pick up left handed mousing, and I'd never go back.

For extreme gaming where, they can probably get a pass (even if a half keyboard is probably more ideal for that.)  However, the HHKB (the most famous 60% board) labels itself as a productivity board for professionals, and that makes no sense to me at all.

Certain games lend themselves better to the compact layouts than others.  A lot of FPS games will do well with a 60% board but I'm curious to see how people handle anything that cuts the numrow out as most FPS use weapon selection via numrow.  You can remap it but chances are a lot of other keys are in use.  I'd hate to get into serious chording in the middle of a game like that.  I've only played WoW on a full size but could likely skip the F-row there and not worry about it.  I'd just need to remap all the Druid shapeshift forms

Mainframe terminals are in a similar boat to the AS/400 or iSeries stuff (iSeries... because IBM can't just stick to a name, dammit) with the 24 key F-row.  I also can't imagine using TSO and especially ISPF without an arrow cluster.  It's just not going to happen.  Those are limited situations though.  Not too many people need access into mainframes these days.  Though arrows continue to find good use.

Smaller boards becomes a problem if you're already relying on a lot of keyboard shortcuts.  It makes creating new ones more difficult as you have to avoid mapping conflicts and could put you into 4-key combinations if you've already got a 3-key combination and now need to hit the Fn key to handle normally standard keys that are now on another layer.

[Niomosy]

For extreme gaming where, they can probably get a pass (even if a half keyboard is probably more ideal for that.)  However, the HHKB (the most famous 60% board) labels itself as a productivity board for professionals, and that makes no sense to me at all.

You're ignoring a big portion of the *nix world.

Eiiti Wada, the original designer of HHKB, is an Emacs user. The list of famous HHKB users includes RMS or Bjarne Stroustrup.

Ahh, the old UNIX layout that Sun used for years.  As a UNIX admin, I cheered when Sun abandoned that layout for ANSI and that's having used it for years before they finally switched.  The layout is subpar for an admin though I can see where programmers might prefer it.  The control key swap is fine.  The migration of the \| key to the numrow sucks.  I prefer that to have better access to the \| key than the backspace.  Perhaps if you're in vim or emacs all day you won't notice it but it definitely wasn't ideal when I used that layout.  Might still have an old Sun Type 5 sitting around with that layout funny enough.

[davkol]

I'm not a fan of symbol positions on US QWERTY in general, and there are a few dozens of extra typographic symbols and accented letters, that I need to type very often. Chording-based solutions have been known for good 40+ years, though; Apple has continued only a small portion of the tradition from Engelbart and Space Cadet. Compose isn't a new concept either.

If there's something I dislike about the usual HHKB, it's the huge-ass spacebar.

[LiquidEvilGaming]

While not a huge fan of how they feel compared to Cherry or gateron I prefer the SOUND of Blue kailh switches as they are far more muted and not nearly as annoying as Cherry or Gateron or Outemu etc.

[Pretendo]

While not a huge fan of how they feel compared to Cherry or gateron I prefer the SOUND of Blue kailh switches as they are far more muted and not nearly as annoying as Cherry or Gateron or Outemu etc.

Agreed.  MX Blues feel pretty nice for typing, but sound annoying.  Something about that high pitched clicking gets under my skin, especially when I'm not the one typing.

[dante]

HHKB users love their backspace position because they are terrible typists

[davkol]

HHKB users love their backspace position because they are terrible typists

Meh.

I'm currently correcting text written by someone else. Of course I need to delete their mistakes somehow (and not just typos).

Backspace is also useful for moving in history.

[jcc04]

HHKB users love their backspace position because they are terrible typists

HHKB's layout is awful for more than just that.

[Niomosy]

HHKB users love their backspace position because they are terrible typists

Meh.

I'm currently correcting text written by someone else. Of course I need to delete their mistakes somehow (and not just typos).

Backspace is also useful for moving in history.

Backspace for history?

Ctrl-P for previous in history, Ctrl-N for next. 

[davkol]

Backspace for history?

Ctrl-P for previous in history, Ctrl-N for next.

[web|file|image] browser

When I'm in shell/emacs, I can obviously back-delete with Ctrl-H too.

[digi]

I honestly don't understand 60% at all.  If you're very short on space (like in a cubicle keyboard tray), I could understand going tenkeyless, but 60% only saves you an inch and change on TKL.  Nobody's desktop is tiny enough to need that extra inch.

Is the selling point that you're moving your hands less because all of the functions are layered over the alpha block?  You can still create those layers on a TKL or full size board, and then have the nav cluster and/or numpad when you need it.  Is it some sort of feng shui minimalist appeal?  Fine, but then you can't really argue that it's a more functional board.  It's just an art piece at that point.  Travel allot but don't want to give up your full sized key switches?  This makes the most sense to me, but you really couldn't squeeze a TKL into your bag?

Please, explain what I'm missing.

A 60% is still too big for my required mouse space when playing CS. I need to play on a split 40% to have enough room to move the mouse without hitting the board. I could have the biggest desk in the world but my shoulders can only stretch so far. You see a lot of pros playing with their boards near vertical, because a TKL is still too large for the space they need.

I'll admit a lot of the appeal to me in more compact layouts is the appearance (not really a fan of Poker-style models though), and I've recently started taking a liking to TKL's as well, but you can't tell me that a TKL kept the correct keys. So much wasted space, with keys that I rarely use. I don't need dedicated arrows because I've set up my workflow to not require them, I don't need function keys because what the **** are they even for, and I don't need the nav buttons because I either have their equivalents in emacs or access them rarely enough that a function layer is fine for them. A TKL is also way, way bigger than a 60%, and wouldn't fit in my bag and would like ridiculous on top of my 12' laptop
Of course my use case isn't everyone's, but that's why I use what I do.

I also don't think anyone says they're more functional, more ergonomic maybe but the function is the exact same...

Get one of those gaming keypad things.

[poq]

If there's something I dislike about the usual HHKB, it's the huge-ass spacebar.

But it's smaller than a standard spacebar.................