Unpopular Keyboard Opinions

[poq]

I honestly don't understand 60% at all.  If you're very short on space (like in a cubicle keyboard tray), I could understand going tenkeyless, but 60% only saves you an inch and change on TKL.  Nobody's desktop is tiny enough to need that extra inch.

Is the selling point that you're moving your hands less because all of the functions are layered over the alpha block?  You can still create those layers on a TKL or full size board, and then have the nav cluster and/or numpad when you need it.  Is it some sort of feng shui minimalist appeal?  Fine, but then you can't really argue that it's a more functional board.  It's just an art piece at that point.  Travel allot but don't want to give up your full sized key switches?  This makes the most sense to me, but you really couldn't squeeze a TKL into your bag?

Please, explain what I'm missing.

A 60% is still too big for my required mouse space when playing CS. I need to play on a split 40% to have enough room to move the mouse without hitting the board. I could have the biggest desk in the world but my shoulders can only stretch so far. You see a lot of pros playing with their boards near vertical, because a TKL is still too large for the space they need.

I'll admit a lot of the appeal to me in more compact layouts is the appearance (not really a fan of Poker-style models though), and I've recently started taking a liking to TKL's as well, but you can't tell me that a TKL kept the correct keys. So much wasted space, with keys that I rarely use. I don't need dedicated arrows because I've set up my workflow to not require them, I don't need function keys because what the **** are they even for, and I don't need the nav buttons because I either have their equivalents in emacs or access them rarely enough that a function layer is fine for them. A TKL is also way, way bigger than a 60%, and wouldn't fit in my bag and would like ridiculous on top of my 12' laptop
Of course my use case isn't everyone's, but that's why I use what I do.

I also don't think anyone says they're more functional, more ergonomic maybe but the function is the exact same...

Get one of those gaming keypad things.

They don't work very well, are super uncomfortable, and have a limited purpose. I take my 40% with me, and can use it for typing. Can't do that with a gamepad.

[Niomosy]

Backspace for history?

Ctrl-P for previous in history, Ctrl-N for next.

[web|file|image] browser

When I'm in shell/emacs, I can obviously back-delete with Ctrl-H too.

I must say the only time I use backspace in a browser is by mistake.  My hand's probably already on the mouse if I'm in a browser so I'll just hit the thumb back button.  Pics, sure, but I'm mostly going forward rather than back.  I guess I just never saw the backspace as a problem where it is.  For file browsing I really only use a few keys.  Probably shift, ctrl, and delete primarily.  That or I'm renaming a file.

[davkol]

I must say the only time I use backspace in a browser is by mistake.

You must be one of the few people, who like that it's disabled in most mainstream browsers by default then.

For file browsing I really only use a few keys.  Probably shift, ctrl, and delete primarily.  That or I'm renaming a file.

Navigation in the directory structure…? Unless, of course, you're using the mouse, or . and .. are displayed as files.

[Meyvn]

Having glanced through this thread, I feel like most "unpopular opinions" on here are actually just *controversial* opinions, which usually are not all that unpopular. I share a lot of popular opinions, but allow me to contribute what I'm sure are some genuinely unpopular ones, from most to least unpopular.

1. I dislike both standard placements of the Control key. Despite growing up on MS-DOS and Windows machines and scarcely encountering a Mac until late 2004, nearly 15 years into my experience with PCs, I so drastically prefer the Command key shortcuts to Control ones that I swap the left-side Control and Alt on Windows machines, despite spending a majority of my time using Windows again for the past three years.

2. Every linear switch I've ever tried (Cherry MX Black, Red, Speed Silver, complicated green Alps, linear simplified black Alps, linear modded Matias Click, linear modded Alps Cream Damped, Matias quiet linear) I find to be simply horrible. I even game, and have no trouble acknowledging that from a technical standpoint, they're superior for gaming. It doesn't seem to matter how well made or well regarded a switch I try. I just hate the feeling of pressing down on a switch and feeling no tactile bump of any kind. Obviously there are linear switches I have not tried, and I'll never pass up an opportunity to give a new keyboard switch a shot (I feel compelled to try even the cheapest, ugliest rubber dome boards whenever I first encounter them) but man, do I hate pressing the linear switches I *have* tried. It just feels to me like something has gone wrong.

3. I genuinely like Apple butterfly switches. They are, of course, not in the same league as most full-travel mechanicals, but they're my favorite true laptop switch I've yet tried.

[Niomosy]

I must say the only time I use backspace in a browser is by mistake.

You must be one of the few people, who like that it's disabled in most mainstream browsers by default then.

For file browsing I really only use a few keys.  Probably shift, ctrl, and delete primarily.  That or I'm renaming a file.

Navigation in the directory structure…? Unless, of course, you're using the mouse, or . and .. are displayed as files.

Honestly I'm not even sure I've noticed that backspace isn't part of navigation any longer.  That said, good.  It was a pain in the ass when it was around. 

For file browsing, I'm one of two situations.  I'm at the CLI and using the keyboard or I'm in a file manager and mostly using the mouse. 

[iFreilicht]

Keyboards without winkey aren't worth considering.   

They're only worth considering if you have Control in the proper place, otherwise I can't interact properly with my computer.

Same for me but with winkey. How am I supposed to move my windows?

That's what i meant, have control instead of caps and rebind where control would be on bottom row to super

Oh I see. Yeah that's perfectly sensible!

That said, dedicated F keys and arrow keys or GTFO.

As ALWAYS  .

ONLY fvcking numb nuts who use 60% keyboards are Dell or some other pre-made PC users, that don't even know about a bios and how to use one.

So glad to use keyboards with the basic keys needed to tunnel back into any bios to alter the voltages when needed  .

Haha holy **** Modern BIOSes even have mouse support. However, dedicated arrow keys are awesome, and I really want to put a Numpad in my Atomic, whenever that is done. Gonna get that Bananasplit on my hands to get arrows in a proper size

[Pretendo]

Having glanced through this thread, I feel like most "unpopular opinions" on here are actually just *controversial* opinions, which usually are not all that unpopular. I share a lot of popular opinions, but allow me to contribute what I'm sure are some genuinely unpopular ones, from most to least unpopular.

1. I dislike both standard placements of the Control key. Despite growing up on MS-DOS and Windows machines and scarcely encountering a Mac until late 2004, nearly 15 years into my experience with PCs, I so drastically prefer the Command key shortcuts to Control ones that I swap the left-side Control and Alt on Windows machines, despite spending a majority of my time using Windows again for the past three years.

2. Every linear switch I've ever tried (Cherry MX Black, Red, Speed Silver, complicated green Alps, linear simplified black Alps, linear modded Matias Click, linear modded Alps Cream Damped, Matias quiet linear) I find to be simply horrible. I even game, and have no trouble acknowledging that from a technical standpoint, they're superior for gaming. It doesn't seem to matter how well made or well regarded a switch I try. I just hate the feeling of pressing down on a switch and feeling no tactile bump of any kind. Obviously there are linear switches I have not tried, and I'll never pass up an opportunity to give a new keyboard switch a shot (I feel compelled to try even the cheapest, ugliest rubber dome boards whenever I first encounter them) but man, do I hate pressing the linear switches I *have* tried. It just feels to me like something has gone wrong.

3. I genuinely like Apple butterfly switches. They are, of course, not in the same league as most full-travel mechanicals, but they're my favorite true laptop switch I've yet tried.

Fair point.  I'll play by these rules and post some genuinely unpopular opinions:

1) I've actually come to prefer cross navs to t-navs.  On my IBM 122 key, which has a cross nav with center button, I've mapped the center to be an Fn key of sorts for internet browsing.  It turns left/right into page up/down, up/down into home/end, ins/del into new tab and close tab, and End into open most recent closed tab.  I haven't had any issues tapping the center button instead of down by mistake.

2) I prefer the sound of Model F to Model M.  Most people are the other way around, but I actually like the purposeful clicking and pinging of the F.  The M just sounds dull, and whatever frequency the springs are resonating at bothers me after awhile.

[dante]

2) I prefer the sound of Model F to Model M.  Most people are the other way around, but I actually like the purposeful clicking and pinging of the F.  The M just sounds dull, and whatever frequency the springs are resonating at bothers me after awhile.

I don't like the sound of either Model F/M.  I think Alps are my favorite clicky switch sound.

Though I've heard from at least two people that you can get close to that sound if you bolt mod the M.

[mrduul]

2) I prefer the sound of Model F to Model M.  Most people are the other way around, but I actually like the purposeful clicking and pinging of the F.  The M just sounds dull, and whatever frequency the springs are resonating at bothers me after awhile.

I don't like the sound of either Model F/M.  I think Alps are my favorite clicky switch sound.

Though I've heard from at least two people that you can get close to that sound if you bolt mod the M.

Blue Alps?

[dante]

2) I prefer the sound of Model F to Model M.  Most people are the other way around, but I actually like the purposeful clicking and pinging of the F.  The M just sounds dull, and whatever frequency the springs are resonating at bothers me after awhile.

I don't like the sound of either Model F/M.  I think Alps are my favorite clicky switch sound.

Though I've heard from at least two people that you can get close to that sound if you bolt mod the M.

Blue Alps?

Blue or White - doesn't matter.  I like the sound of all Alps clicky switches.

[LiquidEvilGaming]

Once you adapt your typing style a bit MX reds are fantastic for typing on, especially with Cherry profile PBT.  Iv'e actually come to enjoy them more than tactile Switches.

[Niomosy]

Once you adapt your typing style a bit MX reds are fantastic for typing on, especially with Cherry profile PBT.  Iv'e actually come to enjoy them more than tactile Switches.

MX reds are fantastic for typing.  I'm typing on them right now.  OEM PBT is pretty solid.  Haven't tried Cherry PBT specifically, though GMK ABS is solid as well. 

[riktors]

I hate winkeyless boards, I use the meta key all the time and leaving it off seems crazy to me when the space is there.

[poq]

I hate winkeyless boards, I use the meta key all the time and leaving it off seems crazy to me when the space is there.

Meta is the Alt key, Super is winkey rebind other keys, if you use it that much and don't need control often, put it in place of capslock or right shift

[Findecanor]

Keyboards with floating keys should not have backlighting.

[riktors]

I hate winkeyless boards, I use the meta key all the time and leaving it off seems crazy to me when the space is there.

Meta is the Alt key, Super is winkey rebind other keys, if you use it that much and don't need control often, put it in place of capslock or right shift

Oops said the wrong one! What I get for posting late. I know I can always rebind it elsewhere, it's totally a trivial gripe but that's the point of the thread right? 

[pabile]

trying out HHKB's fn layer in a DC-2014 and find it the worst!
spaceFN with this layout is the best for office/non-gaming use

[DALExSNAIL]

Keyboards with floating keys should not have backlighting.

Most keyboards shouldn't have backlighting.

[DALExSNAIL]

trying out HHKB's fn layer in a DC-2014 and find it the worst!
spaceFN with this layout is the best for office/non-gaming use
(Attachment Link)

Have you used an actual HHKB?

Edited, did not see your second comment.

[THEGUY69]

Using a 60% percent layout. I need that num pad bros. Even a model F layout is fine, Just need that num pad. I own a pok3r that I don't use that often due to the layout. Love the switches though, might get mx clears in a full size board.

[Altis]

Unpopular Opinion:

-> The MX-gen (ie. earlier) Razer BlackWidow Ultimate is very well built... it may actually be the best built keyboard that I have, actually.

Using a 60% percent layout. I need that num pad bros. Even a model F layout is fine, Just need that num pad. I own a pok3r that I don't use that often due to the layout. Love the switches though, might get mx clears in a full size board.

Get a dedicated Numpad like the Realforce 23U. 

[iFreilicht]

-> The MX-gen (ie. earlier) Razer BlackWidow Ultimate is very well built... it may actually be the best built keyboard that I have, actually.

I've heard that quite a few times and nobody ever tried to dispute it, so I reckon that's not really an unpopular opinion, just one that doesn't get brought up often.

[kasakka]

Using a 60% percent layout. I need that num pad bros. Even a model F layout is fine, Just need that num pad. I own a pok3r that I don't use that often due to the layout. Love the switches though, might get mx clears in a full size board.

You could program a numpad somewhere in the alphas on another layer. That said, it can be a tad tricky to use without the caps indicating the numbers.

[LiquidEvilGaming]

Iv'e never understood people complaining about the lack of a numpad with smaller layouts...Just buy a damn separate one which is more ergonomic since you can relocate it at will not getting in the way of mousing space and move it out of your way entirely when you don't need it.  I do not own a single keyboard at this point with a built in numpad as I find the concept quite obsolete with ones you can just use and move at will.

[Altis]

-> The MX-gen (ie. earlier) Razer BlackWidow Ultimate is very well built... it may actually be the best built keyboard that I have, actually.

I've heard that quite a few times and nobody ever tried to dispute it, so I reckon that's not really an unpopular opinion, just one that doesn't get brought up often.

Not long ago, it was the keyboard to hate on. It was pretty much a meme around here.

I don't see it as much anymore since there are so many more boards available than there were just a few years ago. Having collected as many boards as I have, I've come to appreciate that it's actually quite a solid board, especially for the time.

To this day, it's the most rigid chassis I've come across... absolutely no creaks or noises when I apply a twisting force from either end. 

[OneNightFriend]

Using a 60% percent layout. I need that num pad bros. Even a model F layout is fine, Just need that num pad. I own a pok3r that I don't use that often due to the layout. Love the switches though, might get mx clears in a full size board.

You could always get a separate numpad if you otherwise like 60%.

[OneNightFriend]

I hate winkeyless boards, I use the meta key all the time and leaving it off seems crazy to me when the space is there.

Meta is the Alt key, Super is winkey rebind other keys, if you use it that much and don't need control often, put it in place of capslock or right shift

Oops said the wrong one! What I get for posting late. I know I can always rebind it elsewhere, it's totally a trivial gripe but that's the point of the thread right? 

I get you. What's the point of not having the key if it just leaves a big gap?

[poq]

I hate winkeyless boards, I use the meta key all the time and leaving it off seems crazy to me when the space is there.

Meta is the Alt key, Super is winkey rebind other keys, if you use it that much and don't need control often, put it in place of capslock or right shift

Oops said the wrong one! What I get for posting late. I know I can always rebind it elsewhere, it's totally a trivial gripe but that's the point of the thread right? 

I get you. What's the point of not having the key if it just leaves a big gap?

aesthetics, gives a more "vintage" or balanced look. Other than that not much  )

[davkol]

I'm not sure if this qualifies as an unpopular opinion…

When seeing photos of others' desktops, I like how 60% keyboards look small, especially in front of large monitors. It's kind of deceptive, though. In practice, I often bump with a mouse into the keyboard (or feel like overreaching for a trackball), but my wrists aren't exactly spread wide enough while typing—and my keyboards are somewhere between 60% and 90%.

I have no idea how to approach this. Maybe stop thinking about it. Or use something else instead of a traditional keyboard and a mouse.

[iFreilicht]

-> The MX-gen (ie. earlier) Razer BlackWidow Ultimate is very well built... it may actually be the best built keyboard that I have, actually.

I've heard that quite a few times and nobody ever tried to dispute it, so I reckon that's not really an unpopular opinion, just one that doesn't get brought up often.

Not long ago, it was the keyboard to hate on. It was pretty much a meme around here.

I don't see it as much anymore since there are so many more boards available than there were just a few years ago. Having collected as many boards as I have, I've come to appreciate that it's actually quite a solid board, especially for the time.

To this day, it's the most rigid chassis I've come across... absolutely no creaks or noises when I apply a twisting force from either end. 

Yeah but that was always about the version with Kailh switches, right? I know people just said "BlackWidow is garbage", but if someone brings up that the Cherry version was decent, I have not once seen somebody else try and dispute that.

[Lazylewis]

Tried 40% for months at work, pointless board size. Nothing gained over 60% and plenty lost.

[ideus]

Tried 40% for months at work, pointless board size. Nothing gained over 60% and plenty lost.

You should elaborate on your experience in a separate thread. It may enlighten us that may be interested in give 50% and 40% percent a try.

[davkol]

That's the thing I struggle to grasp. Assuming standard key spacing, a 60% keyboard is always going to be at least 28.5cm wide and 8.5cm deep, plus bezel. The difference between 60% and 75% is 2 cm in either direction, ditto for 40% and 60%.

If the keyboard is supposed to be used at a desktop and not carried around in a pocket, what's the point of going smaller than the 75%? The largest difference—after moving away from tenkeyless/full-size—is going split.

Of course, that assumes a more or less standard layout.

[eksuen]

That's the thing I struggle to grasp. Assuming standard key spacing, a 60% keyboard is always going to be at least 28.5cm wide and 8.5cm deep, plus bezel. The difference between 60% and 75% is 2 cm in either direction, ditto for 40% and 60%.

If the keyboard is supposed to be used at a desktop and not carried around in a pocket, what's the point of going smaller than the 75%? The largest difference—after moving away from tenkeyless/full-size—is going split.

Of course, that assumes a more or less standard layout.

Aesthetics? Some people don't like the cramped look of a 75%.

I have no real need for dedicated nav cluster and F keys. I have no issue accessing them when needed on a 60%.

[davkol]

Well, there are multiple way to look at it.

75% keyboards are some of the most common in the market: almost every laptop has one, unless it features a numpad, hence a 90% keyboard. The problem is that there's no sensible standard for them.

It's no surprise that laptops and compact keyboards use something like that, because it doesn't waste as much space as tenkeyless (or IBM Model M's navigation section respectively), but keeps pretty much all the keys expected by mainstream operating systems.

Does it look cluttered? Perhaps. However, calling it cluttered compared to a "standard" 60% keyboard is idiotic, because even that layout is entirely arbitrary.

What I can get behind in terms of looks, hmm, something like Planck? That does have both symmetry and minimalism.

[eksuen]

Well, there are multiple way to look at it.

75% keyboards are some of the most common in the market: almost every laptop has one, unless it features a numpad, hence a 90% keyboard. The problem is that there's no sensible standard for them.

It's no surprise that laptops and compact keyboards use something like that, because it doesn't waste as much space as tenkeyless (or IBM Model M's navigation section respectively), but keeps pretty much all the keys expected by mainstream operating systems.

Does it look cluttered? Perhaps. However, calling it cluttered compared to a "standard" 60% keyboard is idiotic, because even that layout is entirely arbitrary.

What I can get behind in terms of looks, hmm, something like Planck? That does have both symmetry and minimalism.

True, but laptops can get away with nonstandard key sizes. That helps with the space savings whilst maintaining functionality (in terms of number of dedicated keys). It's different for mechs.

[davkol]

It has nothing to do with "nonstandard" key sizes and absolutely nothing to do with so-called "mechs". The keyboard either does, or doesn't allow efficient and comfortable usage in one way or another. It's inadvertently happened that laptops often have relatively decent layouts within the mainstream in the end.

[ideus]

I am not sure if this is the proper thread to discuss the features of different keyboard sizes. Not trying to spam this thread, just my two cents on this: Personally, a sixty or a sixty plus left hand number pad makes the better fit for my working style. The only single and simple reason being that I need to have direct access to my mouse on the right side without stretching my wrists due to some carpal tunnel syndrome issues I suffered in the past, while keeping the center line of the main typing aligned at the center of my hands. That is why a full keyboard size is a poor option for me, a TKL is a bit better, but still, it makes the center line to move a bit to the left and makes grabbing the mouse a bit more stressful. The only best option is a sixty or, ideally, a sixty plus a left side number pad.

[eksuen]

It has nothing to do with "nonstandard" key sizes and absolutely nothing to do with so-called "mechs". The keyboard either does, or doesn't allow efficient and comfortable usage in one way or another. It's inadvertently happened that laptops often have relatively decent layouts within the mainstream in the end.

Yes, it does. And "efficient and comfortable usage" for whom? Key spacing and key sizing can differ between laptop chiclet keyboards and mechanical keyboards, which means what constitutes "efficient and comfortable usage in one way or another" may differ from one person to the next.

Look, I'm not here to try to convert you to a 60% or tell you your opinion of them and those that use them is unwelcome. But, there is a point, or many points as the case my be, to using something smaller than a 75%.

[davkol]

Key spacing and key sizing can differ between laptop chiclet keyboards and mechanical keyboards

There's a standard for key spacing, and most actually manufacturers respect that. (Although smaller vertical spacing would be beneficial for nearly all users.)

And it has nothing to do with "mechanical keyboards" (which is BS term to begin with). Cherry G80s have 19mm spacing, G84s have 18mm spacing. Both have mechanical-contact switches.

Key sizes? Do you mean things like spacebar width? Well, the common 6.25u width is a waste of space, a similar thing holds for Shift keys and the rest is a result of the awkward row staggering. There's no need for keys larger than 2u, if they're in the right places, and most people have pretty similar hands (the differences are smaller than the setback caused by the industry standard for physical layout).

[eksuen]

Key spacing and key sizing can differ between laptop chiclet keyboards and mechanical keyboards

There's a standard for key spacing, and most actually manufacturers respect that. (Although smaller vertical spacing would be beneficial for nearly all users.)

And it has nothing to do with "mechanical keyboards" (which is BS term to begin with). Cherry G80s have 19mm spacing, G84s have 18mm spacing. Both have mechanical-contact switches.

Key sizes? Do you mean things like spacebar width? Well, the common 6.25u width is a waste of space, a similar thing holds for Shift keys and the rest is a result of the awkward row staggering. There's no need for keys larger than 2u, if they're in the right places, and most people have pretty similar hands (the differences are smaller than the setback caused by the industry standard for physical layout).

I'm not saying standards don't exist, only that variation does.

I'm not here to debate nomenclature either. By mechanical I mean MX- or Alps-style where the individual switches and accompanying keycaps physically limit how tightly you can place keys.

Key width is one aspect. Key length can also change. The F keys and arrow keys on my work laptop, for example, are neither 1u in width nor 1u in length (i.e. they are rectangles smaller than 1u x 1u). I think you underestimate how different people's hands can be and I also think it's unfair of you to make the determination that the difference is negligible such that your standard of efficiency and comfort is still met.

You seem dead set on picking apart my every word whilst ignoring the overall message. That's fine. Your prerogative and all that. I have nothing more to say here.

EDIT: spelling

[davkol]

I'm not here to debate nomenclature either. By mechanical I mean MX- or Alps-style where the individual switches and accompanying keycaps physically limit how tightly you can place keys.

That's on virtually any keyboard. The exact measure depends how the plate/PCB and keycaps are designed. There's a standard for that, but as I said: keyboards, that don't adhere to the standard, do exist. Cherry G84s (with mechanical-contact Cherry ML switches), some keyboards with Alps switches and large keycaps—or half-keycaps on Matias keyboards—microTron… or custom keyboards, such as kurplop's (with ML or Matias switches).

The majority does adhere to the standard, though; the differences in spacing are tiny (0.1 mm or so).

I think you underestimate how different people's hands can be

Symmetrical hands, each with four fingers (with very similar length ratios) and an opposable thumb, all with similar joints etc. The differences are a centimeter here or there.

No healthy human has hands that even remotely resemble the standard keyboard or fit on it naturally. Which is the main point here.

[Lazylewis]

Most custom keyboards are ugly. The ones that look good are usually a copy of an existing board like the HHKB or the 660m.

[Doluded]

Most custom keyboards are ugly. The ones that look good are usually a copy of an existing board like the HHKB or the 660m.

[Lazylewis]

Being a keyboard enthusiast is a cry for help

[SBJ]

Being a keyboard enthusiast is a cry for help

[Lazylewis]

Only the lowest of the low need a number pad and a number row.

[ideus]

Only the lowest of the low need a number pad and a number row.

Interesting: What is the reasoning?

[Merranza]

MX Speeds are overrated and are crap compared to Reds.

*Ducks in a corner*

[Lazylewis]

MX Speeds are overrated and are crap compared to Reds.

*Ducks in a corner*

You don't have to duck in here. Stand tall.