Unpopular Keyboard Opinions

[sncbraxsc2]

I still do not understand the usefulness of a 60% keyboards, I at least need arrows. Also the excuse of space saving simply is invalid for me. If you do not have space for at least a ten-keyless, where is your monitor?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=benefits+of+a+60%25+keyboard

Obviously its a smaller board so theres more space on your desk for weeb action figures, fine tuned multimeters and $400 wee bits of plastic but it also reduces distance between your mouse hand and its respective nipple

[Zobeid Zuma]

I still do not understand the usefulness of a 60% keyboards, I at least need arrows. Also the excuse of space saving simply is invalid for me. If you do not have space for at least a ten-keyless, where is your monitor?

I came up with my own solution to the arrow key problem.

See here --> https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=92199.msg2509763

[Zobeid Zuma]

i own and have used both types of WASD's keycaps, although i don't know which is which, the ones i bought first are a fair bit better than the newer ones, although both sets are completely rubbish 
it's neat that they offer customisation the way they do, and the keyboard itself is perfectly great, but the keycaps are just so bad that they ruin the keyboard they're on 
maybe you got lucky with yours and somehow got better keycaps, if that's at all possible

The ones I got last week are excellent.  I mean, yes...  They are thin ABS, and if you can't accept thin ABS then you aren't going to like them.  However, they are consistent in color, they aren't warped, the plastic molding is clean and sharp, and they fit snug on the stems with no looseness or wobble.  To me, that thin plastic lends a precise and responsive feeling to the key action.

If you put them on a cheap plastic gaming keyboard that already rattles like a drum, then of course they're going to make it sound even worse.  That's not the fault of the keycaps, though.

[Azmodan]

I still do not understand the usefulness of a 60% keyboards, I at least need arrows. Also the excuse of space saving simply is invalid for me. If you do not have space for at least a ten-keyless, where is your monitor?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=benefits+of+a+60%25+keyboard

Obviously its a smaller board so theres more space on your desk for weeb action figures, fine tuned multimeters and $400 wee bits of plastic but it also reduces distance between your mouse hand and its respective nipple

The "moving your arm less to reach the mouse" excuse make no sense! I work multiple hours in-front of the computer and never had that issue. Arms are still pretty functional, moving them is not that bad!!! 

Also desk space definitely not an issue, but I still like my desk empty and I do like big keyboards like the IBM Model M and the DELL AT101W.

What I am saying is that the 60% is something that does not apply to me neither I see any benefits to it, I am not saying that is not useful for other people/situations.

[zslane]

I still do not understand the usefulness of a 60% keyboards, I at least need arrows. Also the excuse of space saving simply is invalid for me. If you do not have space for at least a ten-keyless, where is your monitor?

I used to think the same thing until I tried pairing up a board with an iPad. Anything larger than 60% is simply too wide and bulky. Anything smaller (like a 40%) eliminates too much basic functionality.

The arrows are provided with FN+IJKL (I have the Caps Lock key mapped to FN). In a way, this is even easier than the arrow keys of the nav cluster since I don't have to take my hands away from their home positions to use them. And using FN+IJKL is not really any more awkward than using Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V for copy/paste, and so on.

Moreover, with an iPad, I don't need F-keys or the other nav cluster keys, or a numpad, so a 60% strikes the perfect balance between size and functionality.

[Zobeid Zuma]

Well, this is just my cranky (and maybe "unpopular") keyboard opinion, but…  To me anything bigger than 65% is an aberration.  60-65% is a normal sized keyboard, and the so-called 100% layout is merely a relic from the DOS era of the 1980s.

If you look at the early microcomputers, the Apple II, the Atari 800, the Ti99/4A, the Commodore 64, and even the original Macintosh in 1984, they all pretty much came with what we today would recognize as 60-65% sized keyboards.  Some Tandys also added a number pad, but it was mostly IBM that gave us the behemoth keyboard.

In those early days many computers were sold to businesses to run spreadsheets (Lotus 1-2-3) and databases.  If you're doing spreadsheets all day, or data entry all day, then a number pad is essential.  The nav keys were also important to heavy spreadsheet users.  These systems didn't have a mouse or drop-down menus either, so every function of the computer had to be controlled through the keyboard.  A lot of DOS programs leaned heavily on the F-keys for that.  That's the computing environment the Model F and Model M were designed for.

Now that era is long past, and nobody starting from scratch today would design something like that.  Most people can get by just fine without a number pad.  If you do need one, USB accessory pads are available everywhere; you can pick up a semi-disposable one at Wal-Mart for $8, and you can put it anywhere on your desk.  Likewise, the F-keys are no longer central to application control, and most people are OK with moving them to a Fn layer.

Taking away the nav keys, and especially the arrow keys, is a pain point.  However, there are a lot of different strategies for dealing with that.  The most obvious way is to just add them back in.  Thus we've seen 65% keyboards like the WhiteFox and Clueboard that have been very well received.

For true 60% keyboards those arrow keys can be put on Fn layers, there is SpaceFn https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0, or what I did with the Zo64 https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=92199.0, or you can scrunch some actual arrow keys into the lower-right corner, or if you have one of those accessory numpads you can use it for navigation too.  (Remember Num Lock?)

So, to me the question becomes: What's the justification for a 75% or TKL or bigger keyboard?  What benefit does anybody really get from that?  Not much that I can see.

[zslane]

When I am busy coding, I spend most of my time typing, not mousing. I use the arrow keys and Home/End (usually with Ctrl) quite a lot. Muscle memory has become such that I expect to find them in their standard nav cluster positions.

It's pretty much the same with the numpad. I am a touch typist, but I never really became comfortable with the numrow. I have an easier time pounding out numbers on a numpad and its ortholinear layout than I do the numrow keys. I'm no spreadsheet jockey, but it is nevertheless supremely annoying to reach for the numpad by habit and not find it there, like some amputated limb.

So if I am doing real work (i.e., using a desktop PC), then I expect to have a nav cluster and a numpad at my disposal. Their absence would be contrary to all my typing habits and muscle memory, built up over the course of nearly 40 years. Of course, non-touch typists and youngsters who think that thumbing away on their cell phone constitutes "typing" wouldn't understand my perspective.

It is also worth pointing out that the era of first generation micro computers like the early Apples, Commodores, and so forth only lasted for a handful of years, and when the IBM PC came along, it established the full-size keyboard as the de facto standard. You'll notice that every Windows PC sold in the world comes with a full-size keyboard. That layout isn't a relic, it is still the contemporary standard, and anything else is considered (by ordinary folks) a bizarre variant only fit for weirdos and Mac users.

[Zobeid Zuma]

When I am busy coding, I spend most of my time typing, not mousing. I use the arrow keys and Home/End (usually with Ctrl) quite a lot. Muscle memory has become such that I expect to find them in their standard nav cluster positions.

After I built the Zo64, it took me about two or three days to get used to the new way of navigating.  I think it would have been even faster if I'd kept the arrow keys under my right hand instead of using the left, but I did want to be able to use them with one hand and without taking my right hand away from the trackball.

It is also worth pointing out that the era of first generation micro computers like the early Apples, Commodores, and so forth only lasted for a handful of years, and when the IBM PC came along, it established the full-size keyboard as the de facto standard. You'll notice that every Windows PC sold in the world comes with a full-size keyboard. That layout isn't a relic, it is still the contemporary standard, and anything else is considered (by ordinary folks) a bizarre variant only fit for weirdos and Mac users.

Uhh, I think if you check your facts you'll find it's not really like that at all.  That argument might have worked in the 1990s or even perhaps into the early 2000s, but the computing landscape has transformed since then.  The vast majority of "computers" these days don't even have a keyboard, because they're phones!  However, even if we move phones out of the picture, I think you'll find that the majority of computers sold don't come with a 100% layout keyboard—because they're laptops and tablets.

I just looked up some statistics on this (found here: https://www.statista.com/statistics/272595/global-shipments-forecast-for-tablets-laptops-and-desktop-pcs/).  In 2016 we saw worldwide sales of 174.9 million tablets, 156.8 laptops, and only 103.3 million desktop computers.  Sales of desktop systems have been in a slow, steady decline for years.  That means your supposed "contemporary standard" keyboard is now shipping with, at most, less than a quarter of new computers.  Even if we go a step further and arbitrarily scratch tablets out of the reckoning, your desktop PC is still a minority, only 40% of the total.

There's a reason why you can buy a USB numpad for $8 in Walmart.  That would never happen if everybody already had a 100% layout keyboard in front of them.  There's also a reason why even 100% keyboards are looking more and more like laptop keyboards, many of them using the same ultra-low-profile keys.  It's not because that design is lovely and wonderful, but it's because that's what more and more people are familiar with now from their laptops.  That's the standard now.

[davkol]

That and one more thing: those Function keys and all that was associated with IBM Common User Access on [IBM] PC… that's dead. Yes, Microsoft and others included some aspects of it into their UI guidelines, but it's been slowly disappearing for a long time. In the Apple world, it was a brief episode, which is gone, but even Microsoft has been replacing Function keys by tiny multimedia buttons on their very own keyboards for many years now. The overall trend leads towards 65% keyboards, sometimes with an additional numpad for specific use cases, but Function keys are essentially gone in favor of chords and gestures.

[zslane]

I keep forgetting how laptops have basically taken over the computing landscape.

However, I don't know anybody who uses a laptop and doesn't use the laptop's keyboard (they don't need a mech board). Their expectations are met quite adequately by the builtin keyboard and its sh*tty chicklet keycaps and 0.5mm travel. Where I work, every desktop PC has a full-size keyboard attached, and they outnumber the laptop users at least 5-to-1.

[badziew]

However, I don't know anybody who uses a laptop and doesn't use the laptop's keyboard (they don't need a mech board).

I carry my Race 3 to work every day. Everyone gets issued laptops, with some rubber dome chiclet ****e or Logitech K120 nowadays. Separate keyboards can really fit in that landscape, as a lot of people use one or two additional monitors, and laptop is elevated on some kind of stand. Rare, but not totally nonexistent

In the Apple world, it was a brief episode, which is gone, but even Microsoft has been replacing Function keys by tiny multimedia buttons on their very own keyboards for many years now.

On most HP laptops, multimedia key functions are primary, and functions keys work with Fn. If you can reverse this in BIOS, good for ya. I have a HP 2-in-1 with keyboard case that offers no such option. This gets annoying quite fast :/

[algernon]

However, I don't know anybody who uses a laptop and doesn't use the laptop's keyboard (they don't need a mech board).

Pretty much everyone in the office I work at uses an external keyboard when working at their desks. Half of them carry that keyboard to meetings too, and plenty of those are mechs. Off the top of my head, I know about half a dozen people just on the same floor, who never, ever use the laptop's built-in keyboard (myself included).

[davkol]

In the Apple world, it was a brief episode, which is gone, but even Microsoft has been replacing Function keys by tiny multimedia buttons on their very own keyboards for many years now.

On most HP laptops, multimedia key functions are primary, and functions keys work with Fn. If you can reverse this in BIOS, good for ya. I have a HP 2-in-1 with keyboard case that offers no such option. This gets annoying quite fast :/

Absolutely. It's been a trend ever since Windows Vista came out and accelerated around Windows 8-10.

Let's not forget that Lenovo even had a touchbar before Apple Macbook. But I mentioned Apple, because they adopted the Model M layout only with the Extended Keyboards and a few next generations, while Jobs was gone.

[MGMorden]

Guess I'll throw in mine:

1. I hate small keyboards.  60% or TKL.  I don't particularly need Windows keys so the original 101-key layout is fine, but I need at least that layout. I will say that I have no use for multimedia keys though.
2. Linear switches are terrible.  Like, I might as well be typing on a rubber dome.  I prefer clicky switches, and can get by on regular tactile switches, but linear are a complete no-go for me.
3. I don't care about keyboard lighting.  I want indicator lights for NumLock and Capslock (Scroll-lock I don't care about - it's only ever on by accident), but other than that I don't look at the keyboard while I'm typing so I don't care about lights. 
4. Designer keycaps are mostly stupid looking to me.  I can go for the more subdued "professional looking" caps, but a bunch of off the wall colors and especially those sculpted caps look ridiculous.
5. Anything but QWERTY is stupid.  Once upon a time I even practiced DVORAK to the point where I could touch-type at about 40 WPM on it (my normal QWERTY speed is around 110 WPM), but that I realized that I was basically just needlessly punishing myself.  QWERTY isn't going away for general usage so I never am going to NOT be typing on QWERTY in certain situations, and so long as I regularly type on QWERTY I'm never going to get particularly fast at any alternate layout.  Regardless of how theoretically efficient a different layout may be, why bother if I'm still slower?

[zslane]

Half of them carry that keyboard to meetings too, and plenty of those are mechs.

Oy veh.

I guess I'm lucky in that I don't ever have to take notes at the work meetings I attend. That would make me feel like I'm back in school or something.

Not a single person where I work has a need to carry an external keyboard anywhere. Producers and coordinators are typically the ones walking around with laptops, and only because they are "on the go" more than most. But the only thing they walk around with is the laptop. The whole point of such a device is that it comes equipped with its own keyboard so you don't have to walk around with other peripherals under your arm.

[Glod]

Guess I'll throw in mine:

1. I hate small keyboards.  60% or TKL.  I don't particularly need Windows keys so the original 101-key layout is fine, but I need at least that layout. I will say that I have no use for multimedia keys though.
2. Linear switches are terrible.  Like, I might as well be typing on a rubber dome.  I prefer clicky switches, and can get by on regular tactile switches, but linear are a complete no-go for me.
3. I don't care about keyboard lighting.  I want indicator lights for NumLock and Capslock (Scroll-lock I don't care about - it's only ever on by accident), but other than that I don't look at the keyboard while I'm typing so I don't care about lights. 
4. Designer keycaps are mostly stupid looking to me.  I can go for the more subdued "professional looking" caps, but a bunch of off the wall colors and especially those sculpted caps look ridiculous.
5. Anything but QWERTY is stupid.  Once upon a time I even practiced DVORAK to the point where I could touch-type at about 40 WPM on it (my normal QWERTY speed is around 110 WPM), but that I realized that I was basically just needlessly punishing myself.  QWERTY isn't going away for general usage so I never am going to NOT be typing on QWERTY in certain situations, and so long as I regularly type on QWERTY I'm never going to get particularly fast at any alternate layout.  Regardless of how theoretically efficient a different layout may be, why bother if I'm still slower?

You joined geekhack to sh*t on everything? seems legit.

[MGMorden]

You joined geekhack to sh*t on everything? seems legit.

Not at all.  I joined to ask a question about stabilizers and there was a specific thread for this while I was reading others so I figured I'd participate in the spirit of the thread . . .

[xtrafrood]

I wasn't a fan of < fullsize for a while. Then I tried something that is near to 60% and it's not as bad as I thought. I kind of enjoy mx blue style switches though. Needs more bass.

[Budman]

- Outemu Blue are better than MX Blue. They feel so similar (Maybe even a tad lighter? Hard to tell ) to MX Blues when going full speed but the click sound is better. Click is more a deeper/quieter click compared to annoying high pitched in the MX. Don't know about durability though.

- Lower profile/height of modern dome and scissor switches beat the full travel and height of mechanical keyboards. Tall keyboards and long key travel is a relic of the past. May be great for gamers who learn to not bottom out and speed of switch is needed, but typing speedy on these burn my forearms after a while. They should have shorter travel mechanical switches by now. (Although buckling springs didn't seem to bother my forearms that much, weird)

- I don't like any of the popular Cherry MX for long term. Blue too obnoxiously loud (though would probably take them if had to choose one); Browns might as well be Reds as tactile is so light; Greens too heavy; Clears are too elusive; Linear Red/Black/etc are for gamers.

- Romer-G has great potential. But only a few boards you can get them in and Logitech cheapness ruins them.

- Topre is WAY overpriced and hyped for what it really is... A DOME.

- No way on earth I would spend more for a keyboard than an i5 CPU

[DALExSNAIL]

I prefer lower profile keycaps and shorter travel distance, but my typing form is a bit off so this may be why, since it seems to hurt my forearms when I type faster on taller profile keycaps with normal travel distance.

ftfy

[ideus]

- Lower profile/height of modern dome and scissor switches beat the full travel and height of mechanical keyboards. Tall keyboards and long key travel is a relic of the past. May be great for gamers who learn to not bottom out and speed of switch is needed, but typing speedy on these burn my forearms after a while. They should have shorter travel mechanical switches by now. (Although buckling springs didn't seem to bother my forearms that much, weird)

- I don't like any of the popular Cherry MX for long term. Blue too obnoxiously loud (though would probably take them if had to choose one); Browns might as well be Reds as tactile is so light; Greens too heavy; Clears are too elusive; Linear Red/Black/etc are for gamers.

- No way on earth I would spend more for a keyboard than an i5 CPU

It is insane for someone with this "philosophy" on keyboards to be part of a community of keyboard aficionados.

[fohat.digs]

They should have shorter travel mechanical switches by now.

Blue too obnoxiously loud (though would probably take them if had to choose one)

Leslieann's "jailhouse blue" mod solves most of this by quieting the clicks, shortening the throw, and moving the actuation higher.

O-rings at the bottom complete the task.

[zslane]

It is insane for someone with this "philosophy" on keyboards to be part of a community of keyboard aficionados.

It is definitely odd.

The appeal of mechanical keyboards (and tall, thick keycaps, especially sphericals) is that they harken back to a time when they were exquisite works of engineering in and of themselves. Modern keyboards are all victims of our disposable society where very little is made to last or made with much concern to quality or timeless design. Anyone who loves today's trends in (non-mechanical) keyboards couldn't possibly appreciate what makes mechanical keyboards so amazing. It isn't merely a difference in philosophy, but a limitation of perspective.

[ideus]

It is insane for someone with this "philosophy" on keyboards to be part of a community of keyboard aficionados.

It is definitely odd.

The appeal of mechanical keyboards (and tall, thick keycaps, especially sphericals) is that they harken back to a time when they were exquisite works of engineering in and of themselves. Modern keyboards are all victims of our disposable society where very little is made to last or made with much concern to quality or timeless design. Anyone who loves today's trends in (non-mechanical) keyboards couldn't possibly appreciate what makes mechanical keyboards so amazing. It isn't merely a difference in philosophy, but a limitation of perspective.

Yet, most mechanical keyboard's features are plain non-sense, for someone that is happy with modern stock keyboards; it only remains, why people like that join places like this.

[davkol]

I don't get why you're acting so surprised. "Keyboards" is a very wide umbrella for various topics ranging from electrical engineering to collecting bizarre toy-like keycaps, from exploration of computer/typewriter history to the latest marketing fads, from hardcore subjectivism to HCI research,…

[zslane]

Sure, but 99% of what is discussed around here (outside of the Other Topics non-topic) relates directly to mechanical keyboards. Even artisans are pointless pieces of plastic if you don't have mechanical keyboards to put them on.

[davkol]

Depends on your definition of a mechanical keyboard.

If you aim to exclude rubber domes, you're arguably wrong, because (a) they have moving parts (= mechanical) and (b) they're sometimes discussed around here (and not only Topre/clones)… and some of them have MX-mount sliders, so that custom keycaps technically could be mounted on them.

[zslane]

I aim to include electro-capacitive rubberdomes, not exclude them.

[davkol]

Regardless of capsense. (And capsense itself absolutely isn't "mechanical".)

[zslane]

Sure, okay.

But just because a key moves that doesn't make the board mechanical, not by the informal definition generally accepted by this community. There have to be boundaries somewhere or else this isn't a mechanical keyboard community anymore, but just a keyboard community.

[davkol]

This community doesn't have any definition that isn't entirely arbitrary, while including keyboards other than those with mechanical-contact switches.

That's why I prefer to avoid the term.

[zslane]

Good luck with that.

[Budman]

Yet, most mechanical keyboard's features are plain non-sense, for someone that is happy with modern stock keyboards; it only remains, why people like that join places like this.

Hmm, Opps, I thought I was at a KEYBOARD forum... Not r/MechanicalKeyboards/, and this was a thread about UNPOPULAR keyboard opinions?

I get that mechanical keyboard afficionado's are the ones that tend to frequent forums but I really don't see anything in my opinions posted that completely ripped on mech's at all. I have tried so many different keyboards in past few years so I have earned an informed opinion. So let me clarify some of those statements as I don't want to offend the majority here (who buy and use expensive mechanical keyboards).

I really like mechanical keyboards very much. I completely get the fine tuned mechanical instrument part just as I have a few mechanical watches. My favorite would be buckling spring followed by a good Alps. I would prefer to use my Unicomp as a daily driver at home and at work, BUT overall, mechanical's end up being too tall for me and bulky (in full size layout I prefer). I don't want to have to rely on wrist rests to use them for lengthy typing. Plus the noise! So that is why I said I prefer the modern low profile even though I want a mech. I still keep an eye on mechanical's.

Regarding Cherry, I understand they dominate the mechanical market but having tried all four of the readily available switches, I don't see anything special. I quickly stated why. None of the blue/brown/linear MX & Clones stand out enough to make me want to forgo the tallness/noise to use daily over a good dome/scissor. The Outemu Blue almost did but after a few nights of my wife hearing it in her bedroom my point was solidified.

The Romer-G was like a better Brown to me. Quieter and felt more tactile. If Logitech could have better quality I might have kept the K840 I had recently and been a full time mech user. But again Dome/scissor just won out.

[JohanAR]

They should have shorter travel mechanical switches by now.

Blue too obnoxiously loud (though would probably take them if had to choose one)

Leslieann's "jailhouse blue" mod solves most of this by quieting the clicks, shortening the throw, and moving the actuation higher.

O-rings at the bottom complete the task.

There's also Cherry MX Silver and Kailh low profile switches as non-modded options

[Zobeid Zuma]

I would prefer to use my Unicomp as a daily driver at home and at work, BUT overall, mechanical's end up being too tall for me and bulky (in full size layout I prefer). I don't want to have to rely on wrist rests to use them for lengthy typing. Plus the noise! So that is why I said I prefer the modern low profile even though I want a mech.

I recall reading that, from an ergonomic standpoint, you should hold your hands above the keyboard rather than resting them on anything.

Also, I used a Unicomp for a couple of years, and it was a creaky and clunky beast—and soon after the warranty expired, so did the controller.  It got the job done, and I guess they're fairly priced, but they don't represent what a mechanical keyboard can be.

I blame much of the current trends in keyboards on Apple.  Under Steve Jobs they pushed for super-thin and ever thinner laptops with super-low-profile keys, and then they pushed laptop technology and components into their desktop systems, and they gave us desktop keyboards based on the same super-thin and flat design as their laptop keyboards.  And yet, human hands are optimized for working with three dimensional objects; it's what comes naturally to us.  Not poking at flat surfaces.

The other reason I personally am here is because I was able to design and build my own keyboard with a feature set that I wanted and nobody else was selling.  I got what I wanted, and it was a satisfying process that scratched a creative itch.

[Coffee]

-Topre is fun for gaming
-Favorite gaming keyboard is Realforce 87U 55g
-Topre is overpriced, but worth

[DALExSNAIL]

The Romer-G was like a better Brown to me. Quieter and felt more tactile. If Logitech could have better quality I might have kept the K840 I had recently and been a full time mech user. But again Dome/scissor just won out.

Always been pleased with Logitechs build quality, but admittedly I have not owned a romer-g board.

[psiclone]

I can't understand the love for Cherry switches.  I don't find them better than Gaterons or Kailhs.  In fact, I love Kailhs, because they feel solid and seem reliably consistent to me, but I hate that you can't put mods on them (like clips).

I also don't get the small keyboard thing...it's OK if it works for you, but I don't see the point of suffering through it unless you really are crammed for space.

Artisan keycaps have a place, I'm sure, but I find them nowhere near worth the money they tend to go for.

Just my 2 cents.

[Kavik]

Yet, most mechanical keyboard's features are plain non-sense, for someone that is happy with modern stock keyboards; it only remains, why people like that join places like this.

Hmm, Opps, I thought I was at a KEYBOARD forum... Not r/MechanicalKeyboards/, and this was a thread about UNPOPULAR keyboard opinions?

I get that mechanical keyboard afficionado's are the ones that tend to frequent forums but I really don't see anything in my opinions posted that completely ripped on mech's at all. I have tried so many different keyboards in past few years so I have earned an informed opinion. So let me clarify some of those statements as I don't want to offend the majority here (who buy and use expensive mechanical keyboards).

I really like mechanical keyboards very much. I completely get the fine tuned mechanical instrument part just as I have a few mechanical watches. My favorite would be buckling spring followed by a good Alps. I would prefer to use my Unicomp as a daily driver at home and at work, BUT overall, mechanical's end up being too tall for me and bulky (in full size layout I prefer). I don't want to have to rely on wrist rests to use them for lengthy typing. Plus the noise! So that is why I said I prefer the modern low profile even though I want a mech. I still keep an eye on mechanical's.

Regarding Cherry, I understand they dominate the mechanical market but having tried all four of the readily available switches, I don't see anything special. I quickly stated why. None of the blue/brown/linear MX & Clones stand out enough to make me want to forgo the tallness/noise to use daily over a good dome/scissor. The Outemu Blue almost did but after a few nights of my wife hearing it in her bedroom my point was solidified.

The Romer-G was like a better Brown to me. Quieter and felt more tactile. If Logitech could have better quality I might have kept the K840 I had recently and been a full time mech user. But again Dome/scissor just won out.

I agree with you on Cherry MX switches. The mainstream variants leave much to be desired. Reds are good for playing games, blues seem to be missing something I can't quite put my finger on, and browns the epitome of "meh".  I have not tried clears yet, but I have Zealios in one of my boards, and I must say they're very satisfying with the right keycaps.

That said, I have Gat Greens waiting for a build and MX Silent Blacks on the way as well to try. I'm hoping they're different enough from MX Blues and Reds to be enjoyable.

[zslane]

I blame much of the current trends in keyboards on Apple.  Under Steve Jobs they pushed for super-thin and ever thinner laptops with super-low-profile keys, and then they pushed laptop technology and components into their desktop systems, and they gave us desktop keyboards based on the same super-thin and flat design as their laptop keyboards.  And yet, human hands are optimized for working with three dimensional objects; it's what comes naturally to us.  Not poking at flat surfaces.

Yes, exactly.

I have been an enthusiastic Apple user, to one extent or another, since 1987, and I've loved many of their products. But the direction they've taken their keyboards leaves much to be desired. It is one case where I wish others in the industry didn't feel the need to mindlessly ape them.

[MGMorden]

The Romer-G was like a better Brown to me. Quieter and felt more tactile. If Logitech could have better quality I might have kept the K840 I had recently and been a full time mech user. But again Dome/scissor just won out.

Always been pleased with Logitechs build quality, but admittedly I have not owned a romer-g board.

I've got a K840 (the non-gamer more professional looking Romer-G board) and I'll agree that to a large degree they're like a better Cherry MX Brown.  I'm not all that big a fan of Browns to start with but they're tolerable - as are Romer-G's.  If you want tactility and don't want to make much noise then they're not a bad choice.  I've got my own office (though I do usually leave my door open) so the noise it somewhat contained.

As to build quality though I find Logitech amazing.  With a different switch like a White Alps or Cherry MX Green this K840 would be a darned near perfect keyboard.

[_rubik]

I may have thrown this in here before... But JIS is an under-supported layout that has few decent key sets. Real shame

[clappingcactus]

I may have thrown this in here before... But JIS is an under-supported layout that has few decent key sets. Real shame

JIS is also the superior layout option. No one needs a gigantic 6-7u spacebar, people are just used to it.

[Zobeid Zuma]

JIS is also the superior layout option. No one needs a gigantic 6-7u spacebar, people are just used to it.

I had to look up JIS to figure out what you meant.  No, we don't need a gigantic spacebar, but IMO the answer is to split it.   -->  http://zobeid.zapto.org/image/keeb/Zo64-08.jpg

I've also been fiddling around in KLE with a larger variant without the center Fn key, for those who are put off by such things.   -->  http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/b367774ecc015735a691aa8ad17d5900

Not sure I'm entirely happy with it yet, though.

[AMongoose]

I may have thrown this in here before... But JIS is an under-supported layout that has few decent key sets. Real shame

JIS is also the superior layout option. No one needs a gigantic 6-7u spacebar, people are just used to it.

yes but it has a bad left shift AND a badder right shift.

[_rubik]

I may have thrown this in here before... But JIS is an under-supported layout that has few decent key sets. Real shame

JIS is also the superior layout option. No one needs a gigantic 6-7u spacebar, people are just used to it.

yes but it has a bad left shift AND a badder right shift.

Right shift is cancer to begin with, so I really am ok with that being shrunk down. As for the left shift, I have never on earth had an issue with it. The size reduction is barely noticeable. The biggest qualms I have is the location of single quote. I love having double quote layered over the 2, because I can do it with one hand. But the single quote is in an awkward middle spot over the 7. It just takes some getting used to when going back and forth between ANSI.

[Duckyreddy]

I love the 104 key layout for home, I know it's not popular in the community...
not the best for ergonomics either lol

[AMongoose]

I may have thrown this in here before... But JIS is an under-supported layout that has few decent key sets. Real shame

JIS is also the superior layout option. No one needs a gigantic 6-7u spacebar, people are just used to it.

yes but it has a bad left shift AND a badder right shift.

Right shift is cancer to begin with, so I really am ok with that being shrunk down. As for the left shift, I have never on earth had an issue with it. The size reduction is barely noticeable. The biggest qualms I have is the location of single quote. I love having double quote layered over the 2, because I can do it with one hand. But the single quote is in an awkward middle spot over the 7. It just takes some getting used to when going back and forth between ANSI.

Size reduction? JIS is supposed to have an ANSI sized left shift, i meant it was too big and was missing a key.
The problem with the reduced right shift is that the additional key requires too much stretch, it should have been on the right side like on ISO.

Someone should make a JIS bottom row, ISO left shift and ANSI enter board.

[clappingcactus]

JIS is also the superior layout option. No one needs a gigantic 6-7u spacebar, people are just used to it.

I had to look up JIS to figure out what you meant.  No, we don't need a gigantic spacebar, but IMO the answer is to split it.   -->  http://zobeid.zapto.org/image/keeb/Zo64-08.jpg

I've also been fiddling around in KLE with a larger variant without the center Fn key, for those who are put off by such things.   -->  http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/b367774ecc015735a691aa8ad17d5900

Not sure I'm entirely happy with it yet, though.

Splitting the spacebar is a solution derived from the problem. Nobody has more than one typing technique for the spacebar. Both your hands don't need a dedicated spacebar key.

I may have thrown this in here before... But JIS is an under-supported layout that has few decent key sets. Real shame

JIS is also the superior layout option. No one needs a gigantic 6-7u spacebar, people are just used to it.

yes but it has a bad left shift AND a badder right shift.

Right shift is cancer to begin with, so I really am ok with that being shrunk down. As for the left shift, I have never on earth had an issue with it. The size reduction is barely noticeable. The biggest qualms I have is the location of single quote. I love having double quote layered over the 2, because I can do it with one hand. But the single quote is in an awkward middle spot over the 7. It just takes some getting used to when going back and forth between ANSI.

Size reduction? JIS is supposed to have an ANSI sized left shift, i meant it was too big and was missing a key.
The problem with the reduced right shift is that the additional key requires too much stretch, it should have been on the right side like on ISO.

Someone should make a JIS bottom row, ISO left shift and ANSI enter board.

Completely agree with that except recently I've been thinking that long left shift is nice to be able to reach across the keyboard efficiently.

[Kavik]

JIS is also the superior layout option. No one needs a gigantic 6-7u spacebar, people are just used to it.

I had to look up JIS to figure out what you meant.  No, we don't need a gigantic spacebar, but IMO the answer is to split it.   -->  http://zobeid.zapto.org/image/keeb/Zo64-08.jpg

I've also been fiddling around in KLE with a larger variant without the center Fn key, for those who are put off by such things.   -->  http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/b367774ecc015735a691aa8ad17d5900

Not sure I'm entirely happy with it yet, though.

Splitting the spacebar is a solution derived from the problem. Nobody has more than one typing technique for the spacebar. Both your hands don't need a dedicated spacebar key.

I may have thrown this in here before... But JIS is an under-supported layout that has few decent key sets. Real shame

JIS is also the superior layout option. No one needs a gigantic 6-7u spacebar, people are just used to it.

yes but it has a bad left shift AND a badder right shift.

Right shift is cancer to begin with, so I really am ok with that being shrunk down. As for the left shift, I have never on earth had an issue with it. The size reduction is barely noticeable. The biggest qualms I have is the location of single quote. I love having double quote layered over the 2, because I can do it with one hand. But the single quote is in an awkward middle spot over the 7. It just takes some getting used to when going back and forth between ANSI.

Size reduction? JIS is supposed to have an ANSI sized left shift, i meant it was too big and was missing a key.
The problem with the reduced right shift is that the additional key requires too much stretch, it should have been on the right side like on ISO.

Someone should make a JIS bottom row, ISO left shift and ANSI enter board.

Completely agree with that except recently I've been thinking that long left shift is nice to be able to reach across the keyboard efficiently.

I use the very right edge of left shift and the very left edge of right shift (unless I'm using it with the arrow or nav keys), so moving them around or shrinking them would affect me quite a bit. My only concern with a split spacebar is that I use my right thumb when typing but my left thumb when playing games.