Unpopular Keyboard Opinions

[yui]

Unpopular opinions? Let me see...
- Clickies are the worst type of switch.

depending on the situation, i'd say it is objectively true

- Cheap Tai Hao Caps are better value than most GMK sets

This is just true, GMK is extremely bad value, but most peoples buying GMK sets are not about the value, but the aesthetics and legacy of them.

- Getting into customs is way too difficult for most people, and getting into vintage keyboards is almost indecipherable.

Some companies are trying to make custom easier, like GMMK and WASD from the top of my head, and for vintage yeah it is a mess but peoples at deskauthority are also keeping a good repository of them helping to make more sense

- Garish colors have no place on a keyboard, nor does RGB

that is opinion and i would tend to agree even though i do own a bright pink keyboard

All 60%+ keebs should have a hotswap option.

i would love to live in a world with a 122% hotswap (and no not the Boston, if i want my 122% i want a full bottom row )
only problem is that the trend is to space saving at all cost, do 90% of the boards designed seem to be 60% or smaller and no one seems to be willing to adventure into the nicher market of 100+%

[Maledicted]

- Clickies are the worst type of switch.

First off, I see that you've very recently joined. I don't watch the New Members posts as aggressively as I had been able to in the past. Welcome to our eclectic and eccentric band of lunatics. 

I would say that's probably the most popular opinion. People seem to tend to write off clickies entirely before they've ever tried any good ones ... unfortunately. I was weird and actually liked MX blue (people make mistakes), but it isn't like much besides MX red in that family is common enough to appeal to the senseless masses anyway as an alternative. MX clear and black are too niche, MX brown is ... well ... MX brown.

The fact that I was once a mutant space alien who actually liked MX blue is probably all that allowed me an open enough mind to go down the wonderful rabbit hole of niche and/or vintage clicky mechanisms ... many of which are simply fantastic. Unequaled, in my opinion ... and I'm pretty sure that is the minority opinion in places outside of Deskthority.

MX clickies, having now had a more rounded/broader experience, are pretty objectively bad. I wouldn't put them below the worst MX tactiles ... but not far behind. If you haven't tried any good alternative mechanisms, however, you don't really have a leg to stand on in making that statement.

- Cheap Tai Hao Caps are better value than most GMK sets

Everything is a better value than GMK, in my opinion. 

That may actually be unpopular though.

- Getting into customs is way too difficult for most people, and getting into vintage keyboards is almost indecipherable.

What do you consider to be custom? Custom can be as simple as getting some garbage MX (or clone) board on Ebay for $20 and making it your own. You can pick up a brand new Magicforce 68 for $30 pretty commonly right now. If you're handy with a soldering iron, it is pretty easy to swap in whatever you would like to use in it. I can attest to the surprisingly high quality of the pads/vias for the price. Police surplus TG3 keyboards can be had for dirt cheap with MX blacks as well if you keep an eye out, and those are tanks.

If soldering is what you mean by difficult, there are plenty of affordable hot swap boards, even if you're dealing with cheapie Amazon Outemu (Gaote) hot swap boards that only accept Outemu-ish switches.

This hobby isn't all about drooling over the most popular $300+ GB, etc. The switches are what really matter ... and some of the best ones around are dirt cheap, ironically.

What do you need deciphered about vintage boards? I'm not Chyros (who you should binge watch if you want to go down that rabbit hole), but I have a pretty good understanding of most of the highlights, and experience with a good number of the ye olde forgotten switch mechanisms.

- Garish colors have no place on a keyboard, nor does RGB

I think that both of these are relatively popular opinions, although that matter certainly isn't settled one way or the other. I agree myself, but aesthetics are totally subjective. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm not looking at the board while I'm typing on it anyway.

[CaesarAZealad]

First off, I see that you've very recently joined. I don't watch the New Members posts as aggressively as I had been able to in the past. Welcome to our eclectic and eccentric band of lunatics. 

Thanks, I decided to make an account on this and DT after I needed a place to sell some keeb related stuff but REALLY didn't want to make a reddit account (I cut free from that place and have no intention of going back)

MX clickies, having now had a more rounded/broader experience, are pretty objectively bad. I wouldn't put them below the worst MX tactiles ... but not far behind.

I haven't been able to get a full board, but I have tried fidget style single switches and I have to say that the blue and white alps I've tried feel a bit too soft. Now obviously I can't claim that some loose switches speak for a switch as a whole, but that's just been my take. It's not a bad thing, but I'd love to try some alps tactiles as I really like heavy tactility (Hopefully I could even find some amber alps). I've also tried click bar switches and found them to be dissapointing. My box navies aren't tactile enough for me, though I did like the light crisp feeling of Kailh Choc whites. Maybe it's the weight of the switch that's drowning out the tactility. A buckling springs board is next on my list, though it probably won't be for a while since I may have spent a little much on my upcoming Clickiez build.

What do you consider to be custom?

A custom IMHO is something made from either a kit or a series of parts (PCB, case, etc, etc)
I have legitimately no clue how anyone is supposed to match up PCBs with cases that aren't explicitly made for one another and the explanation I was given was essentially that it was a roll of the dice.

What do you need deciphered about vintage boards?

Where to get them, how to tell a good deal, read part numbers, and generally not get taken for a ride. I've been told all the usual answers of ebay, thrift stores, recycling centers, and whatnot but because of where I am a vintage keyboard is as rare as it gets in the wild.

I'm not Chyros (who you should binge watch if you want to go down that rabbit hole)

Funny you should mention him, he's what really got me into the hobby. I remember spending hours working on school projects with his videos on my second monitor. Not the biggest fan anymore, but he's still got some quality stuff.

[fohat.digs]

At least one member of the human race thought that this was a good keyboard design:

[iri]

not to mention the name

[ander]

Typing about keyboards is like walking about shoes.

Oh, and also my new sig line. 

[ander]

At least one member of the human race thought that this was a good keyboard design:

Yikes, "JIZZ"?! But yes, it's an actual product name:





Then there's this USB-powered fan I saw the other day:




All their products end with "NO"—and you charge this fan wirelessly, so they called it WINO. 😃 (Or maybe because it makes wind...?)

[VaporKeebs]

Yikes, "JIZZ"?! But yes, it's an actual product name

My PC case was made by Computer Upgrade Kings USA. I had a coupon from a streamer and decided to get a fee keyboard and mouse with the case.

The keyboard that showed up had their name intials which showed as CUK USA. Jesus

[hvontres]

At least one member of the human race thought that this was a good keyboard design:

hmmm, water-proof "magic Wand" keyboard... wonder what their real target audience is

[Maledicted]

First off, I see that you've very recently joined. I don't watch the New Members posts as aggressively as I had been able to in the past. Welcome to our eclectic and eccentric band of lunatics. 

Thanks, I decided to make an account on this and DT after I needed a place to sell some keeb related stuff but REALLY didn't want to make a reddit account (I cut free from that place and have no intention of going back)

Reddit always seemed to me to be way too sporadic and unorganized to be useful for literally anything other than asking a specific question that (hopefully) a few people will ever find while still relevant, or looking back at such historical posts based on a Google search.

MX clickies, having now had a more rounded/broader experience, are pretty objectively bad. I wouldn't put them below the worst MX tactiles ... but not far behind.

I haven't been able to get a full board, but I have tried fidget style single switches and I have to say that the blue and white alps I've tried feel a bit too soft. Now obviously I can't claim that some loose switches speak for a switch as a whole, but that's just been my take. It's not a bad thing, but I'd love to try some alps tactiles as I really like heavy tactility (Hopefully I could even find some amber alps). I've also tried click bar switches and found them to be dissapointing. My box navies aren't tactile enough for me, though I did like the light crisp feeling of Kailh Choc whites. Maybe it's the weight of the switch that's drowning out the tactility. A buckling springs board is next on my list, though it probably won't be for a while since I may have spent a little much on my upcoming Clickiez build.

There's a wide variation in feel between different examples of SKCM whites, the idea behind that being that they were likely being manufactured in various factories. There's some minor variation in SKCM blues as the design was revised. My favorite SKCM boards have pretty stiff tactility compared to anything mainstream, but you sound like you're looking for something pretty extreme. I have loose SKCM and Matias switches and they do feel significantly less tactile to me outside of a board than my perception of them mounted in a board, used at a realistic typing angle. I have not tried ambers myself. They're probably a good lead for you.

With click bar switches, you lose tactility whenever you either decrease the click bar thickness (box whites) or increase the spring weighting. The problem is you may run into issues with the click bar resetting if you go too light on the spring in comparison to the click bar. Have you tried jades? They're very tactile. Certainly more so than navies. They're lower pitched as well in the sound department. They're my favorites of the family.

I would skip buckling spring entirely if you want extreme tactility, depending on what specifically about tactility you're looking for. Buckling spring has a steep buildup of spring pressure just before the spring buckles. The buckling event itself, however, is only very lightly tactile. Extremely crisp and pleasant in the case of capacitive buckling spring ... but probably not what you're looking for.

What do you consider to be custom?

A custom IMHO is something made from either a kit or a series of parts (PCB, case, etc, etc)
I have legitimately no clue how anyone is supposed to match up PCBs with cases that aren't explicitly made for one another and the explanation I was given was essentially that it was a roll of the dice.

Most of the 60% stuff is relatively universal, otherwise ... yeah. You can usually find examples of people trying it though if you dig, unless the parts you're looking at are relatively obscure and/or new. There's so much compatibility that it even helps to cross reference parts. If a case is known to fit boards ABC, and boards XYZ are known to also fit that case, they probably fit other cases designed for A, B or C.

It always seems to me like the more universally compatible/customizable something is, the less interesting it is in turn. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What do you need deciphered about vintage boards?

Where to get them, how to tell a good deal, read part numbers, and generally not get taken for a ride. I've been told all the usual answers of ebay, thrift stores, recycling centers, and whatnot but because of where I am a vintage keyboard is as rare as it gets in the wild.

I'm not Chyros (who you should binge watch if you want to go down that rabbit hole)

Funny you should mention him, he's what really got me into the hobby. I remember spending hours working on school projects with his videos on my second monitor. Not the biggest fan anymore, but he's still got some quality stuff.

A good deal for SKCM is a crapshoot/Russian Roulette without knowing the switches are in perfect shape. SMK seem a lot less dramatic conditionally. Membrane buckling spring can also be a gamble due to the plastic plate rivets in conjunction with how many of those boards were made, used and abused for decades. Capacitive buckling spring is pretty bulletproof as long as somebody that doesn't know what they're doing hasn't been inside monkeying with things (all still relatively easily fixed in comparison to others). Space Invaders seem pretty low maintenance as well (I haven't felt any scratchy ones, even in random scrap gaylord piles). Even dome with slider boards can get a little gritty/scratchy, and I have one NEC blue oval board that I can tell could probably use some TLC. Forget about Futaba MA entirely in this regard.

What Ebay is so useful for is watching price trends. Do an advanced search for something you're interested in and look through the sold auctions to figure out what people have been paying lately for a board in good condition (if it needs to be). Sometimes certain boards, and even switch types, are so uncommon that it is hard to find recent sales. I have never seen a vintage mechanical board in a thrift store yet, and I used to frequent them constantly. Recycling centers will yield you better luck, electronics recyclers specifically if you can get one to let you in. As things go, less and less of the cool 70s and 80s stuff will be trickling in as time goes on. If you get to know people working there, they might give you a heads up if they get some boards you might like in.

What do you mean by reading part numbers? Not every single board model ever made has been documented. Various boards often share FCC IDs though, if you can find other examples of them in a search. You'll also find that even without an FCC ID, you can sometimes figure out what's likely in a board based just on pictures of the unique characteristics of the case and/or caps, as a lot of boards then could have been sold under various OEMs, especially with switches like Alps or SMK.

At least one member of the human race thought that this was a good keyboard design:

Hilarious. Thanks for sharing. 

[CaesarAZealad]

First off, I see that you've very recently joined. I don't watch the New Members posts as aggressively as I had been able to in the past. Welcome to our eclectic and eccentric band of lunatics. 

Thanks, I decided to make an account on this and DT after I needed a place to sell some keeb related stuff but REALLY didn't want to make a reddit account (I cut free from that place and have no intention of going back)

Reddit always seemed to me to be way too sporadic and unorganized to be useful for literally anything other than asking a specific question that (hopefully) a few people will ever find while still relevant, or looking back at such historical posts based on a Google search.

My problems with reddit come from the culture of the site itself. It's like twitter, which I also avoid like the plague. Either way tho, r/MK was pretty much just a fashion show of gaudy MX builds. Your pretty spot on

There's a wide variation in feel between different examples of SKCM whites, the idea behind that being that they were likely being manufactured in various factories. There's some minor variation in SKCM blues as the design was revised. My favorite SKCM boards have pretty stiff tactility compared to anything mainstream, but you sound like you're looking for something pretty extreme. I have loose SKCM and Matias switches and they do feel significantly less tactile to me outside of a board than my perception of them mounted in a board, used at a realistic typing angle. I have not tried ambers myself, since I prefer clickies anyway. They're probably a good lead for you.

I'll try to get an AEK then. Always liked the look of those, so I guess that's going on my vintage wishlist (It'll probably cost and arm and a leg and I really don't have the cash rn so I guess I'll wait on that one )

I would skip buckling spring entirely if you want extreme tactility, depending on what specifically about tactility you're looking for. Buckling spring has a steep buildup of spring pressure just before the spring buckles. The buckling event itself, however, is only very lightly tactile. Extremely crisp and pleasant in the case of capacitive buckling spring ... but probably not what you're looking for.

Actually funny thing. I either like extreme tactility, or light clickies. I remember trying white chocs and liking them a lot, so hopefully buckling springs will be a nice change

[fohat.digs]

I'll try to get an AEK

Put it on your ebay watch list and be patient. Apple made millions of them back in the day. Don't worry about the case yellowing, they are pretty much all like that.

[iri]

I'll try to get an AEK then. Always liked the look of those, so I guess that's going on my vintage wishlist (It'll probably cost and arm and a leg and I really don't have the cash rn so I guess I'll wait on that one )

I bought an AEK in fantastic condition for £250.

[Maledicted]

I would skip buckling spring entirely if you want extreme tactility, depending on what specifically about tactility you're looking for. Buckling spring has a steep buildup of spring pressure just before the spring buckles. The buckling event itself, however, is only very lightly tactile. Extremely crisp and pleasant in the case of capacitive buckling spring ... but probably not what you're looking for.

Actually funny thing. I either like extreme tactility, or light clickies. I remember trying white chocs and liking them a lot, so hopefully buckling springs will be a nice change

So you like everything except for middle-of-the-road? Interesting. If you haven't, I still think you should try box jades for tactility as well. The difference in both feel and sound between jades and navies is significant. You would not expect it when the only difference between them is the spring.

Capacitive buckling spring is pretty expensive to potentially find out you don't like them. Hopefully meetups start becoming more common again for situations like this.

I'll try to get an AEK then. Always liked the look of those, so I guess that's going on my vintage wishlist (It'll probably cost and arm and a leg and I really don't have the cash rn so I guess I'll wait on that one )

I bought an AEK in fantastic condition for £250.

I guess I should have bought up some. I see them for under $100 all of the time. Not necessarily always on Ebay though.

[CaesarAZealad]

Capacitive buckling spring is pretty expensive to potentially find out you don't like them. Hopefully meetups start becoming more common again for situations like this.

I just got a cheap 2017 Unicomp Model M with MBS. I'm willing to put 50 bucks down on a Model M even if I don't like the switches

[Maledicted]

Capacitive buckling spring is pretty expensive to potentially find out you don't like them. Hopefully meetups start becoming more common again for situations like this.

I just got a cheap 2017 Unicomp Model M with MBS. I'm willing to put 50 bucks down on a Model M even if I don't like the switches

Very different animals. I was still a Cherry MX zombie when I first bought a venerable Model M. I disliked the weighting, mushy bottoming out and inconsistency of feel and sound (don't recall if that particular one needs a screw or bolt mod). It was enough to send me straight back to MX blue of all things. It was a cheap F XT that finally sent me through a time machine to the 80s for good.

Having tried way more unique mechanisms these days, I can't go back to MX blue ... but I'm still not particularly fond of membrane buckling spring either.

[Leopard223]

Here's something that came into my mind today.

Aluminum is the best sounding plate material.

[Maledicted]

Here's something that came into my mind today.

Aluminum is the best sounding plate material.

I love both aluminum and steel plates. I haven't really tried any of the hipster ones though unless it was inadvertently.

[Leopard223]

Here's something that came into my mind today.

Aluminum is the best sounding plate material.

I love both aluminum and steel plates. I haven't really tried any of the hipster ones though unless it was inadvertently.

I found that PC brings out the worst aspects in the board and switches in particular and CF is just lifeless.

[Maledicted]

Here's something that came into my mind today.

Aluminum is the best sounding plate material.

I love both aluminum and steel plates. I haven't really tried any of the hipster ones though unless it was inadvertently.

I found that PC brings out the worst aspects in the board and switches in particular and CF is just lifeless.

What about brass? I haven't tried it, but I have a few of them ready for boards, if I ever get to them. My concern was always mostly with rigidity. I like my boards robust and rigid. Not that PC and CF aren't also very strong materials. I also actually like pingy/reverberant materials.

[CaesarAZealad]

Here's something that came into my mind today.

Aluminum is the best sounding plate material.

[VaporKeebs]

Tray mount is fine for most people.

[Leopard223]

What about brass? I haven't tried it, but I have a few of them ready for boards, if I ever get to them. My concern was always mostly with rigidity. I like my boards robust and rigid. Not that PC and CF aren't also very strong materials. I also actually like pingy/reverberant materials.

I haven't tried brass but I like it's sound profile, it's muted but somewhat higher pitched. I've read it's supposed to be more rigid than Alu so you might quite like it.
I would have bought it for my KBD67 Lite to try but it doesn't have standoff holes.

Tray mount is fine for most people.

I actually prefer hard mounting over softer, something about softer mounting types feels flimsy

[CaesarAZealad]

Capacitive buckling spring is pretty expensive to potentially find out you don't like them. Hopefully meetups start becoming more common again for situations like this.

I just got a cheap 2017 Unicomp Model M with MBS. I'm willing to put 50 bucks down on a Model M even if I don't like the switches

Very different animals. I was still a Cherry MX zombie when I first bought a venerable Model M. I disliked the weighting, mushy bottoming out and inconsistency of feel and sound (don't recall if that particular one needs a screw or bolt mod). It was enough to send me straight back to MX blue of all things. It was a cheap F XT that finally sent me through a time machine to the 80s for good.

Having tried way more unique mechanisms these days, I can't go back to MX blue ... but I'm still not particularly fond of membrane buckling spring either.

Well I just got it in today. The keyfeel is a bit inconsistent and I wasn't a fan of the tactility at first, but after typing a bit on it I'm very happy with my purchase! Really makes me want to try the model F when I can get the chance

[Tribal]

Matias Silent Tactile switches are superior to Alps SKCM.  The “bump” at the bottom helps avoid bottoming out and the rubber helps return the key so typing is easier.  I’m over clickiness.

[iri]

How's the quality control for Matias boards? I ordered a Quiet Pro in 2012 and ended up returning it because the build was quite shoddy, and the switch feel was all over the place.

[ThoughtArtist]

Reminder that Model M is **** to type on in modern life.

Seriously, WTF is this stiff Model M nonsense???

At least Model F makes sense. Model M is just plasticy, stiff ****.

[CaesarAZealad]

Reminder that Model M is **** to type on in modern life.

Seriously, WTF is this stiff Model M nonsense???

At least Model F makes sense. Model M is just plasticy, stiff ****.

If you think the Model M is stiff then I can't help you man

[Faceman76]

Reminder that Model M is **** to type on in modern life.

Seriously, WTF is this stiff Model M nonsense???

At least Model F makes sense. Model M is just plasticy, stiff ****.

Really? 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[HungerMechanic]

Isn't the UNICOMP version a little lighter? Maybe try that.

I've been meaning to give Matias silent tactile a serious try. I remember the loud clicky tactile being good with some tuning, but some say the silent switches are underwhelming.

Do they have the nomenclature backwards? Like the silent clicky is actually a no-click tactile, and the Matias Tactile Pro is actually a clicky?

[hvontres]

GMK/Cherry profile keycaps are the MX Brown of key profiles, not bad but not great either.

[HungerMechanic]

Yeah, but unless you have really stable switches, Cherry profile is necessary to reduce wobble, as compared with taller profiles.

So it complements Cherry switches like MX Browns and others very well [although DCS is better for this]. Cherry-profile enhances stock Cherry switches as compared with something like stock cheaply-made OEM keycaps on prebuilts.

Otherwise, I agree. And having a taller profile on sturdy switches, maybe something like MG profile, is great.

[hvontres]

Yeah, but unless you have really stable switches, Cherry profile is necessary to reduce wobble, as compared with taller profiles.

Honestly, I am loving my MT3s. And as far as wobble goes, I feel like it just helps align the keys to my fingers when I don't get them perfectly centered over the key. But then again, I think box switches are pretty good as far as guidance goes. (maybe about half, based on a real quick test with a cherry brown and a Hako True)

[HungerMechanic]

Well, MT3 is well-designed for modern MX keyboards for the most part. I find it is less forgiving of typing angle than Cherry.

[I am coming to prefer MG Profile, which seems to merge SA keycaps with MT3 dishing, with slight changes to angles].

Yes, MT3 can be good with light-tactiles. My first experience with them was at a meetup on Gateron Browns. Using them on a Filco with Ergo Clears, as well. I should probably try MT3 on my BOX Brown keyboard at some point. Those switches are good with taller keycaps. You'll probably find that MT3 does particularly well with U4T and Holy Boba, although I plan to test them with KTT Mallo at some point.

[TheWonderBubble]

I would say that's probably the most popular opinion. People seem to tend to write off clickies entirely before they've ever tried any good ones ... unfortunately. I was weird and actually liked MX blue (people make mistakes), but it isn't like much besides MX red in that family is common enough to appeal to the senseless masses anyway as an alternative. MX clear and black are too niche, MX brown is ... well ... MX brown.

The fact that I was once a mutant space alien who actually liked MX blue is probably all that allowed me an open enough mind to go down the wonderful rabbit hole of niche and/or vintage clicky mechanisms ... many of which are simply fantastic. Unequaled, in my opinion ... and I'm pretty sure that is the minority opinion in places outside of Deskthority.

MX clickies, having now had a more rounded/broader experience, are pretty objectively bad. I wouldn't put them below the worst MX tactiles ... but not far behind. If you haven't tried any good alternative mechanisms, however, you don't really have a leg to stand on in making that statement.

As a noob as well, what would you recommend for clicky switches to try out? I've played with a couple tactiles and I'm starting to get into linear, but I do want to try some clicky switches, I just don't know where to start with them.

[hvontres]

I would say that's probably the most popular opinion. People seem to tend to write off clickies entirely before they've ever tried any good ones ... unfortunately. I was weird and actually liked MX blue (people make mistakes), but it isn't like much besides MX red in that family is common enough to appeal to the senseless masses anyway as an alternative. MX clear and black are too niche, MX brown is ... well ... MX brown.

The fact that I was once a mutant space alien who actually liked MX blue is probably all that allowed me an open enough mind to go down the wonderful rabbit hole of niche and/or vintage clicky mechanisms ... many of which are simply fantastic. Unequaled, in my opinion ... and I'm pretty sure that is the minority opinion in places outside of Deskthority.

MX clickies, having now had a more rounded/broader experience, are pretty objectively bad. I wouldn't put them below the worst MX tactiles ... but not far behind. If you haven't tried any good alternative mechanisms, however, you don't really have a leg to stand on in making that statement.

As a noob as well, what would you recommend for clicky switches to try out? I've played with a couple tactiles and I'm starting to get into linear, but I do want to try some clicky switches, I just don't know where to start with them.

I think the best "clicky" type switches right now are the clickbar ones. To me the whole point of the clicky switch is NOT to make noise, but to have a sharp break near the actuation point. The main issue I have with MX-blue type click jackets is that the mechanism is mostly a noise maker added to a sharp brown and the click has very little to do with actuating the switch. On top of that, the guide surfaces on the stem, which are already pretty short are now cut in half to allow for the bottom part of the stem to detach during the click event.
With click bars, you have a small torsion spring that snaps out of the way to create the click event. This to me feels like it is more like the idea behind the original 70s and 80s buckling type mechanisms (Beam spring, Model F buckling spring, Model M buckling spring)

The main ones I am aware of are all Kalih Box type switches. In rough order of lightest to heaviest, you have Box White, Box Pink, Box Pale Blue, Box Jade and Box Navy. There is also a "Muted Box Jade", which is a box jade with some silencing added. It has an interesting feel, but I actually preferred the Pale Blues for my current board.

The other alternatives are the older Alps switches with click leaves. I have not tried one myself, but given the current prices for alps blues, they must be pretty good. Zeal is releasing a MX-Alps hybrid this month that has an Alps style click leaf in an MX compatible housing. They sure sound interesting, but at 5x the price of a pale blue, they need to be really good. (I do have some samples coming one of these days...) (Pale Blue ~$0.30/switch, zeal clickiez $1.50/switch). I also like bigger boards, so when you are fitting out a 122% board, switch cost becomes a bigger factor than when you are building a 40% or a macropad.

And if you are just getting into this, a hotswap macropad is a really good place to start. That was actually my first "custom keyboard". I built a YamPad from scratch and managed to find some some numpad kits on mechmarket ( I think I ended up with cherry and SA). That way I could test out small quantities of switches in a more real world setting than our average switch tester. And you can try out different key/keycap combos to see what you like. I found that a key tester is really good for eliminating switches you don't like (I abhor linears, but that in itself seems to be a fairly unpopular opinion) but finding decent tactile/clicky switches using only a four button tester was pretty hard. Using my numpad, I eventually manged to narrow down my tactile selection to Hako Trues. They are probably a bit on the heavy side for most people, but I have big ape hands and need something I can rest my fingers on without hitting all the keys.

Good luck in your search for the perfect clicky switch  

[TheWonderBubble]

And if you are just getting into this, a hotswap macropad is a really good place to start.

Good luck in your search for the perfect clicky switch

I just got in my two puca macropads, and had completely forgotten that they're hotswap.  ) Going to be using those as my switch testers now! I've been loving my milky top gat yellows for typing, but I do think I prefer tactiles a bit more for gaming and a few other things, so I'm curious to see how clickies are just because I've literally never used them before. I'll look at some of the box switches and see if I can't find somewhere to pick up some singles/low quantities to test weights and then justify a new board for a full set! 

[hvontres]

Kono has 10 packs of all but the pale blues. Novelkeys sells them in boxes of 36 for around 10.80

[VaporKeebs]

XDA and DSA profile are slept on and one of the best profiles.

[CaesarAZealad]

XDA and DSA profile are slept on and one of the best profiles.

Hi satan!

[ander]

- Clickies are the worst type of switch.

I would say that's probably the most popular opinion. People seem to tend to write off clickies entirely before they've ever tried any good ones...

That's because they can't appreciate the fun of typing on clickety clackety switches that make everything they type seem vivid, important, and attention-getting! Whee!

It's an emotion-based thing. There's no logical reason anyone would prefer to type on a clicky keeb. It's an animal pleasure—like walking on the beach with bare feet, or running your hand through a cold stream. Or eating Magnum Bars, which no rational person who cares about their health would have more than, say, one of a month. But does that stop the rest of us? Nooo!! Nor does it stop us from delighting in typing on clicky keyboards. It's just something you've got to do, when it's something you like that much. Clickety-click!

I suppose that's an Unpopular Keyboard Opinion, then. How unusually appropriate.

[hvontres]

- Clickies are the worst type of switch.

I would say that's probably the most popular opinion. People seem to tend to write off clickies entirely before they've ever tried any good ones...

That's because they can't appreciate the fun of typing on clickety clackety switches that make everything they type seem vivid, important, and attention-getting! Whee!

It's an emotion-based thing. There's no logical reason anyone would prefer to type on a clicky keeb. It's an animal pleasure—like walking on the beach with bare feet, or running your hand through a cold stream. Or eating Magnum Bars, which no rational person who cares about their health would have more than, say, one of a month. But does that stop the rest of us? Nooo!! Nor does it stop us from delighting in typing on clicky keyboards. It's just something you've got to do, when it's something you like that much. Clickety-click!

I suppose that's an Unpopular Keyboard Opinion, then. How unusually appropriate.

To me, clicy switches come in three distinct categories:

1) The OG clicky mechanisms from the 70s and 80s, where the click is a side product of how the switch actuates. The best know examples of this are IBMs Beamspring and buckling spring mechanisms
2) Recent innovative mechanisms, that while not relying on the click to actuate the switch, do a good job replicating the feel of a metal part suddenly buckling during actuation. Kailh's clickbar switches(white, pale blue, pink, jade and navy) are a good modern example. I would also put things like blue alps and the new zeal clickies in this category (these both use a click leaf, which is seperate from the rest of the switch)
3) The utterly abhorrent and misguided design that is the click jacket switch. These are the Mx Blue and various clones where there is a sepreate part in the mechanism that is shot ahead of the rest of the stem near the actuation point for the sole purpose of making noise. As you might tell, I am NOT a fan of this design.

To me, the first two types have a very pleasant, sharp break in the middle of the keystroke. The click jacket on the other hand feels more like you are typing on a ballpoint pen. If you want to enjoy the noise of a clicky board, at least do yourself a favor and get a decent clickbar switch. you will thank me.

[Faceman76]

I love the BOX Navy with a heavier spring.  They have the right amount of feedback for me and the heavy spring prevents me from bottoming out on every keystroke.  For me, there's nothing better...although Unicomp and old IBM switches are a close second. 

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Maledicted]

Capacitive buckling spring is pretty expensive to potentially find out you don't like them. Hopefully meetups start becoming more common again for situations like this.

I just got a cheap 2017 Unicomp Model M with MBS. I'm willing to put 50 bucks down on a Model M even if I don't like the switches

Very different animals. I was still a Cherry MX zombie when I first bought a venerable Model M. I disliked the weighting, mushy bottoming out and inconsistency of feel and sound (don't recall if that particular one needs a screw or bolt mod). It was enough to send me straight back to MX blue of all things. It was a cheap F XT that finally sent me through a time machine to the 80s for good.

Having tried way more unique mechanisms these days, I can't go back to MX blue ... but I'm still not particularly fond of membrane buckling spring either.

Well I just got it in today. The keyfeel is a bit inconsistent and I wasn't a fan of the tactility at first, but after typing a bit on it I'm very happy with my purchase! Really makes me want to try the model F when I can get the chance

So you've already gone from hating clickies to beginning down the rabbit hole of vintage clickies. It is an abyss from which you can never escape ... and you'll probably not want to anyway.

Matias Silent Tactile switches are superior to Alps SKCM.  The “bump” at the bottom helps avoid bottoming out and the rubber helps return the key so typing is easier.  I’m over clickiness.

Why is it important to not bottom out? You shouldn't have any trouble with the key returning either way. If you're hitting the dampeners ... you are bottoming out. You do know that there were dampened tactile Alps SKCM switches, right? They're typically considered to be superior to Matias switches. I would agree with that sentiment, even if Matias switches are still very nice in every category they produce. Still prefer clickies in this family of switches myself either way. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Have you tried swapping dampened sliders into the clicky variant of the switch, or the clicky leaves into the tactile switches? Those are pretty nice too.

How's the quality control for Matias boards? I ordered a Quiet Pro in 2012 and ended up returning it because the build was quite shoddy, and the switch feel was all over the place.

2012 is just about when Forward stopped making Alps clones and Matias went to Gaote (Outemu) for their switches. The one old Matias board that I know has Forward switches in it has chatter across at least half of the whole freaking board. I have had no such problem with the Gaote switches, and they seem very consistent to me. It also seems like maybe QC wasn't so great for a while in terms of soldering the legs of the switches on perfectly straight so that the contacts functioned properly 100% of the time, although I haven't had any minor chatter issues that haven't resolved themselves magically with a little breaking in. The micro USB connectors on their boards are also literally screwed to the controller now with chunky plastic straps, since those breaking off was a problem in the past as well.

Isn't the UNICOMP version a little lighter? Maybe try that.

I've been meaning to give Matias silent tactile a serious try. I remember the loud clicky tactile being good with some tuning, but some say the silent switches are underwhelming.

Do they have the nomenclature backwards? Like the silent clicky is actually a no-click tactile, and the Matias Tactile Pro is actually a clicky?

It seems to be, but any membrane buckling spring is just a little too stiff for me ... even having gotten used to things like box navies.

Matias' nomenclature is all kinds of FUBAR. Their "quiet clicks" are dampened tactiles, their "tactile" switches are undampened clickies. The "quiet linear" switches aren't even totally linear. They have a tiny/gradual tactile bump near the end of travel, far more noticeable to me than something like MX brown or direct clones. Their "linear" and tactile switches are both very smooth right out of the box and the tactiles have a nice sharp bump. I'm not sure what changes the clickies would need besides being complicated Alps instead.  I love all 3 without modification, more than anything else similarly mass market made today I have ever tried.

I would say that's probably the most popular opinion. People seem to tend to write off clickies entirely before they've ever tried any good ones ... unfortunately. I was weird and actually liked MX blue (people make mistakes), but it isn't like much besides MX red in that family is common enough to appeal to the senseless masses anyway as an alternative. MX clear and black are too niche, MX brown is ... well ... MX brown.

The fact that I was once a mutant space alien who actually liked MX blue is probably all that allowed me an open enough mind to go down the wonderful rabbit hole of niche and/or vintage clicky mechanisms ... many of which are simply fantastic. Unequaled, in my opinion ... and I'm pretty sure that is the minority opinion in places outside of Deskthority.

MX clickies, having now had a more rounded/broader experience, are pretty objectively bad. I wouldn't put them below the worst MX tactiles ... but not far behind. If you haven't tried any good alternative mechanisms, however, you don't really have a leg to stand on in making that statement.

As a noob as well, what would you recommend for clicky switches to try out? I've played with a couple tactiles and I'm starting to get into linear, but I do want to try some clicky switches, I just don't know where to start with them.

hvontres knows what he's talking about. I would just add that the click bar switches feel and sound radically different from each other based on spring weighting and click bar thickness. The pinks and jades are pretty snappy/tactile and sound pretty low pitched (lower than any other modern switches besides maybe Matias). I think how high pitched most clickies are is one of the things a lot of people are turned off by out of the gate. Increased spring weighting decreases perceived tactility, click bar thickness increases it. I love the jades the most myself, being a big fan of Alps SKCM blues. Pinks come in a close second (if you needed something less stiff). Navies are entertaining too if you don't mind their high pitch, but they're too stiff for most people.

Another thing, on the topic of modern manufacture switches, is Matias switches are dirt cheap and I like them just a bit more than even click bar switches. They're just totally incompatible with MX boards, (most) plates and caps.

Everybody has different tastes, but just about anybody that ends up liking clickies at all will probably like some flavor of buckling spring, some flavor of Alps and/or Matias and some flavor of click bar switches. If you must try MX clickies, Gaterons and Outemus are best ... and Outemu blue boards are extremely cheap and conveniently available on Amazon.

- Clickies are the worst type of switch.

I would say that's probably the most popular opinion. People seem to tend to write off clickies entirely before they've ever tried any good ones...

That's because they can't appreciate the fun of typing on clickety clackety switches that make everything they type seem vivid, important, and attention-getting! Whee!

It's an emotion-based thing. There's no logical reason anyone would prefer to type on a clicky keeb. It's an animal pleasure—like walking on the beach with bare feet, or running your hand through a cold stream. Or eating Magnum Bars, which no rational person who cares about their health would have more than, say, one of a month. But does that stop the rest of us? Nooo!! Nor does it stop us from delighting in typing on clicky keyboards. It's just something you've got to do, when it's something you like that much. Clickety-click!

I suppose that's an Unpopular Keyboard Opinion, then. How unusually appropriate.

I think that's definitely a factor. I still think most of the dislike for clickies is based on having only ever tried MX blue (or clones) though, or worse, making choices based solely on the subjective opinions of the most popular streamers of the moment.

[CaesarAZealad]

Capacitive buckling spring is pretty expensive to potentially find out you don't like them. Hopefully meetups start becoming more common again for situations like this.

I just got a cheap 2017 Unicomp Model M with MBS. I'm willing to put 50 bucks down on a Model M even if I don't like the switches

Very different animals. I was still a Cherry MX zombie when I first bought a venerable Model M. I disliked the weighting, mushy bottoming out and inconsistency of feel and sound (don't recall if that particular one needs a screw or bolt mod). It was enough to send me straight back to MX blue of all things. It was a cheap F XT that finally sent me through a time machine to the 80s for good.

Having tried way more unique mechanisms these days, I can't go back to MX blue ... but I'm still not particularly fond of membrane buckling spring either.

Well I just got it in today. The keyfeel is a bit inconsistent and I wasn't a fan of the tactility at first, but after typing a bit on it I'm very happy with my purchase! Really makes me want to try the model F when I can get the chance

So you've already gone from hating clickies to beginning down the rabbit hole of vintage clickies. It is an abyss from which you can never escape ... and you'll probably not want to anyway.

I'd still say clickies are my least favorite type of switch, but these are a nice change of pace. Just got a board with Orange ALPS (ASK) and that blew me away. Still prefer my Zealios V2s just for the pure T A C T I L I T Y but it's definitely my second favorite board post waxboil.

[Maledicted]

I'd still say clickies are my least favorite type of switch, but these are a nice change of pace. Just got a board with Orange ALPS (ASK) and that blew me away. Still prefer my Zealios V2s just for the pure T A C T I L I T Y but it's definitely my second favorite board post waxboil.

With membrane buckling spring, I say you've tried the worst of the best. We'll see what you say once you've tried SKCM clickies, Matias, capacitive buckling spring or click bar switches.

I have plenty of boards with switches that might be candidates for that whole newfangled waxboil thing. I have a SKCM blue board that feels terrible ... and an identical board that's wonderful. Would probably make for a great comparison. I would ask you how it went, but unless you had some pristine orange Alps I suppose it would be hard to say. I don't think I have even tried oranges myself.

[HungerMechanic]

You haven't tried Orange Alps?

Maybe it's time that you did so. It's like the Blue Alps of tactiles. Try a clean one at a meetup. And although some people are against it, it's fine to lube them. Orange Alps is still significantly more tactile than MX, so it's fine to mod the switch to be a little more easygoing.

[Maledicted]

You haven't tried Orange Alps?

Maybe it's time that you did so. It's like the Blue Alps of tactiles. Try a clean one at a meetup. And although some people are against it, it's fine to lube them. Orange Alps is still significantly more tactile than MX, so it's fine to mod the switch to be a little more easygoing.

I have literally never found a meetup in driving distance. Plenty of posts about starting one, but they fizzle out. I also don't look anywhere besides here though.

I have been looking at some AEKs recently, so maybe I'll end up with a board with some before too long. The question will be whether or not they even feel right.

[HungerMechanic]

Orange ALPS are heavily affected by switch condition. I've tried hand-restored Orange ALPS, lubed Orange ALPS, and Orange ALPS that were in about 65% condition. There is a distinct difference between all of them.

And you aren't getting the real experience with ~65% condition. The magic probably comes at 80% and higher.

[Maledicted]

Orange ALPS are heavily affected by switch condition. I've tried hand-restored Orange ALPS, lubed Orange ALPS, and Orange ALPS that were in about 65% condition. There is a distinct difference between all of them.

And you aren't getting the real experience with ~65% condition. The magic probably comes at 80% and higher.

What about the wax mod? I have some SKCM blues in great shape, I should try it on some that are otherwise trashed to compare. I have some loose ones just sitting in a bag.