Author Topic: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?  (Read 9478 times)

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Offline Bucake

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #50 on: Thu, 15 October 2015, 04:18:22 »
the IBM Model F XT is my favorite board :3
in my experience, it just washes away the Model M..
the sound, the feel, and even the layout of the F XT are two times better to me.

hail capacitive buckling spring!
IBM Model F XT // Realforce 87U 55g Type-S // HHKBP2 45g Type-S // KBT Pure Pro Cherry MX Red

Offline rowdy

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #51 on: Thu, 15 October 2015, 04:40:17 »
All this lively banter kinda disproves the notion that BS keyboards are not popular :)
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #52 on: Thu, 15 October 2015, 07:22:40 »
All this lively banter kinda disproves the notion that BS keyboards are not popular :)

"Popular" is a relative concept.

With what, billions of computer users in the world, does "popular" mean that 10%, or 1%, or 0.1%, or 0.01%, or less less percent of computer users like them?

But I would say that buckling springs are popular in a limited niche market. And be particularly well-represented on a hobby forum!
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #53 on: Thu, 15 October 2015, 08:15:45 »
*sigh*
« Last Edit: Thu, 15 October 2015, 10:06:38 by Snowdog993 »

Offline eternalmetal

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #54 on: Thu, 15 October 2015, 11:38:54 »
Back when I first started to use a computer, most of the computers I used were of the BS variety.  They were noisy and had an annoying ring to them when typed on.  In my early computer and typing classes, this resulted in a low roar of obnoxious typing noises.  Eventually, I found myself to start disliking the idea of noisy keyboards, and I embraced the rubber-dome generation of quieter keyboards with less key travel.  The idea of inferior key-feel didnt even strike my mind, simply because the keyboards were becoming less obnoxious and could be used without being heard from a mile away.  I began to equate lack of keyboard noise with keyboard quality.  For this reason alone, I feel that BS keyboards fell from large scale popularity and into relative obscurity.

The reason why I became more interested in mechanical keyboards in more recent years is because the quality of the mass produced rubber dome keyboards has fallen (the mushy feels were getting to me).  I didnt even realize the depth of keyboard development, switch types, etc until fairly recent; a keyboard was just a device that needed to work.  Still, considering a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel  like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor.  Why should I opt for the obnoxious ping of a BS board when I could get something quieter/something that sounds better and also still features a good key feel?  I guess nostalgia of the old school could make me mildly interested in seeing how a model M would stack up to modern mechanicals, but im happy enough with all of the other available options at the moment to not even bother. 

Offline SamirD

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #55 on: Thu, 15 October 2015, 16:48:10 »
BS isn't about nostalgia, but about functionality.  There was a tremendous amount of research that went into the development of the BS design and the resulting keyboards.  And IBM did it well--probably too well--because the keyboards are still functional decades after the computers they were designed for have died.

Still, as times have changed, and UI is more understood now, there are more choices in terms of a 'great fit' for a particular style of typing.  But since the fundamentals of typing really haven't changed (hitting switches on a board with 'keys' on them), well-made older designs like the BS still live on, and rightfully so.

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #56 on: Thu, 15 October 2015, 17:27:50 »
a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel  like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor. 

This seems like a bizarre statement to me. A mouse ball is imprecise and hard to control, an inferior failed technology.

I am no Luddite, but there are valid reasons to select admittedly old, but tested and true, equipment over modern plastic disposables.

Personally, I find the solidity and precision of a Model F to be an order of magnitude superior to anything bought new today.

Typing on modern plastic keyboards is simply not satisfying in the way that "real" tools are, but, I agree, if I was carrying it around regularly, I would make different choices. A craftsman selects his tools carefully, buying equipment that will perform consistently and not fail unexpectedly. If the purpose of a keyboard is something to type on, then select the piece that facilitates that function best, not that which takes up the least desk space, weighs the least, or costs the least.

Additionally, aesthetically, there is an aura of "steampunk" awesomeness to ancient IBM iron that these contemporary lightweights cannot even aspire to.

Even the custom Korean jobs with aluminum plates, while impressive, are still saddled with tinkley wimpy switches and lots of plastic.
 
« Last Edit: Thu, 15 October 2015, 17:30:46 by fohat.digs »
"The Trump campaign announced in a letter that Republican candidates and committees are now expected to pay “a minimum of 5% of all fundraising solicitations to Trump National Committee JFC” for using his “name, image, and likeness in fundraising solicitations.”
“Any split that is higher than 5%,” the letter states, “will be seen favorably by the RNC and President Trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations.”"

Offline chyros

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #57 on: Thu, 15 October 2015, 17:37:43 »
a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel  like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor. 

This seems like a bizarre statement to me. A mouse ball is imprecise and hard to control.

I am no Luddite, but there are valid reasons to select admittedly old, but tested and true, equipment over modern plastic disposables.

Personally, I find the solidity and precision of a Model F to be an order of magnitude superior to anything bought new today.
I couldn't agree more. When looking at reviews of older versus newer keyboards the older ones virtually invariably come out on top. Even older versions of switches that are still being produced, like vintage Cherries, capacitive buckling springs or complicated Alps, are consistently rated to be superior to their modern versions. There is only ONE infallible trend in keyboard production, design and construction, and that is a downward one. Pretty much every single keyboard or switch manufacturer has either cut corners, bit the dust, or both.
Check my keyboard video reviews:


Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #58 on: Thu, 15 October 2015, 18:25:40 »
Back when I first started to use a computer, most of the computers I used were of the BS variety. 
... The idea of inferior key-feel didnt even strike my mind, simply because the keyboards were becoming less obnoxious and could be used without being heard from a mile away.  I began to equate lack of keyboard noise with keyboard quality.  For this reason alone, I feel that BS keyboards fell from large scale popularity and into relative obscurity.  ... Still, considering a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel  like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor.  Why should I opt for the obnoxious ping of a BS board when I could get something quieter/something that sounds better and also still features a good key feel?  I guess nostalgia of the old school could make me mildly interested in seeing how a model M would stack up to modern mechanicals, but im happy enough with all of the other available options at the moment to not even bother.

Did you even read the previous posts?  Sometimes I feel I have to repeat myself in the same thread because someone reads the first post and none of the previous replies.  Maybe that's why I posted *sigh* instead of mentioning my other hobbies instead.
I have the feeling the younger mindset is:

"If it doesn't have bling, it ain't my thing!"

Sound familiar?  I think we all realize what attracts us as consumers to products.  Marketing and advertisement campaigns always want to "one-up" their competitors with some new gizmo or feature that nobody else has.

I am not going to argue the point.  I already made mine.  I think time is the only factor that makes you realize, that maybe, just maybe those guys that use IBM keyboards have a quality product.

Of course when I am using a keyboard that is over 20 years old to compose this message; I personally would say that it might be worthwhile to maybe check it out.

Hey, everything comes back in style.  It might not be a bad idea to have one in the future.

Offline SamirD

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #59 on: Thu, 15 October 2015, 18:33:26 »
Back when I first started to use a computer, most of the computers I used were of the BS variety. 
... The idea of inferior key-feel didnt even strike my mind, simply because the keyboards were becoming less obnoxious and could be used without being heard from a mile away.  I began to equate lack of keyboard noise with keyboard quality.  For this reason alone, I feel that BS keyboards fell from large scale popularity and into relative obscurity.  ... Still, considering a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel  like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor.  Why should I opt for the obnoxious ping of a BS board when I could get something quieter/something that sounds better and also still features a good key feel?  I guess nostalgia of the old school could make me mildly interested in seeing how a model M would stack up to modern mechanicals, but im happy enough with all of the other available options at the moment to not even bother.

Did you even read the previous posts?  Sometimes I feel I have to repeat myself in the same thread because someone reads the first post and none of the previous replies.  Maybe that's why I posted *sigh* instead of mentioning my other hobbies instead.
I have the feeling the younger mindset is:

"If it doesn't have bling, it ain't my thing!"

Sound familiar?  I think we all realize what attracts us as consumers to products.  Marketing and advertisement campaigns always want to "one-up" their competitors with some new gizmo or feature that nobody else has.

I am not going to argue the point.  I already made mine.  I think time is the only factor that makes you realize, that maybe, just maybe those guys that use IBM keyboards have a quality product.

Of course when I am using a keyboard that is over 20 years old to compose this message; I personally would say that it might be worthwhile to maybe check it out.

Hey, everything comes back in style.  It might not be a bad idea to have one in the future.

There's different types of keyboard enthusiasts, and while some respect the IBM BS boards enough to at least try them, others are not interested.  And that's okay.

This is the day and age of instant gratification, form over function, keeping up with the jones' vs keeping up your pants.  It influences everything, and even the niche of 'people who love their IBM BS keyboard'.


Offline tararais

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #60 on: Thu, 15 October 2015, 20:02:31 »
Back when I first started to use a computer, most of the computers I used were of the BS variety. 
... The idea of inferior key-feel didnt even strike my mind, simply because the keyboards were becoming less obnoxious and could be used without being heard from a mile away.  I began to equate lack of keyboard noise with keyboard quality.  For this reason alone, I feel that BS keyboards fell from large scale popularity and into relative obscurity.  ... Still, considering a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel  like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor.  Why should I opt for the obnoxious ping of a BS board when I could get something quieter/something that sounds better and also still features a good key feel?  I guess nostalgia of the old school could make me mildly interested in seeing how a model M would stack up to modern mechanicals, but im happy enough with all of the other available options at the moment to not even bother.

Did you even read the previous posts?  Sometimes I feel I have to repeat myself in the same thread because someone reads the first post and none of the previous replies.  Maybe that's why I posted *sigh* instead of mentioning my other hobbies instead.
I have the feeling the younger mindset is:

"If it doesn't have bling, it ain't my thing!"

Sound familiar?  I think we all realize what attracts us as consumers to products.  Marketing and advertisement campaigns always want to "one-up" their competitors with some new gizmo or feature that nobody else has.

I am not going to argue the point.  I already made mine.  I think time is the only factor that makes you realize, that maybe, just maybe those guys that use IBM keyboards have a quality product.

Of course when I am using a keyboard that is over 20 years old to compose this message; I personally would say that it might be worthwhile to maybe check it out.

Hey, everything comes back in style.  It might not be a bad idea to have one in the future.
 
Oh boy, aggressive "keyboard" warrior..

Offline Elrick

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #61 on: Thu, 15 October 2015, 23:05:47 »
I think time is the only factor that makes you realize, that maybe, just maybe those guys that use IBM keyboards have a quality product.

Of course when I am using a keyboard that is over 20 years old to compose this message; I personally would say that it might be worthwhile to maybe check it out.

Hey, everything comes back in style.  It might not be a bad idea to have one in the future.

The IBM is one of those Classic designs plus it's switches do last a long time regardless of how many novels are written upon it  ;) .

Again own personal contact with these type of keyboards will either make you keep using them or turn you away.  The younger crowd will always go for the Vegas lights because children are always attracted to bright, sparkly things.

Us lot are more interested in reliability and simple to read legends.  Plus we have all used Model-Ms before in our earlier lives and consider them part of our ancient heritage.

Not a rabid IBM fan but appreciate a fully functioning keyboard that will last for decades when used.

Offline eternalmetal

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #62 on: Fri, 16 October 2015, 00:31:42 »
a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor. 

This seems like a bizarre statement to me. A mouse ball is imprecise and hard to control, an inferior failed technology.

Technologically comparable perhaps not, but I made a point to replace my BS board with something quieter just like I replaced my mouse with something more responsive.  Both are relics of an earlier age of PCs imo.

I am no Luddite, but there are valid reasons to select admittedly old, but tested and true, equipment over modern plastic disposables.

Personally, I find the solidity and precision of a Model F to be an order of magnitude superior to anything bought new today.

Typing on modern plastic keyboards is simply not satisfying in the way that "real" tools are, but, I agree, if I was carrying it around regularly, I would make different choices. A craftsman selects his tools carefully, buying equipment that will perform consistently and not fail unexpectedly. If the purpose of a keyboard is something to type on, then select the piece that facilitates that function best, not that which takes up the least desk space, weighs the least, or costs the least.

Im not doubtful of your reasons for wanting an older keyboard, nor was I making an objective argument against them.  Though after purchasing a TKL board, I am definitely partial to the ergonomics of placement with the mouse on my desk.  And keyboard durability has never been an issue for me, for whatever that's worth.

Back when I first started to use a computer, most of the computers I used were of the BS variety. 
... The idea of inferior key-feel didnt even strike my mind, simply because the keyboards were becoming less obnoxious and could be used without being heard from a mile away.  I began to equate lack of keyboard noise with keyboard quality.  For this reason alone, I feel that BS keyboards fell from large scale popularity and into relative obscurity.  ... Still, considering a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel  like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor.  Why should I opt for the obnoxious ping of a BS board when I could get something quieter/something that sounds better and also still features a good key feel?  I guess nostalgia of the old school could make me mildly interested in seeing how a model M would stack up to modern mechanicals, but im happy enough with all of the other available options at the moment to not even bother.

Did you even read the previous posts?  Sometimes I feel I have to repeat myself in the same thread because someone reads the first post and none of the previous replies.  Maybe that's why I posted *sigh* instead of mentioning my other hobbies instead.

I read the thread.  I was just giving my perspective towards the whole "why isnt BS more popular?" topic.  Condescend much?  :rolleyes:

I have the feeling the younger mindset is:

"If it doesn't have bling, it ain't my thing!"

Sound familiar?  I think we all realize what attracts us as consumers to products.  Marketing and advertisement campaigns always want to "one-up" their competitors with some new gizmo or feature that nobody else has.

You seem to imply that this actually applies to me just because I dont want to buy an old keyboard that I never even liked.  I have used one before.  If you actually read my reply you would know this already.  And for the record I dont own a flashy keyboard full of bling, nor do I want one.

I am not going to argue the point.  I already made mine.  I think time is the only factor that makes you realize, that maybe, just maybe those guys that use IBM keyboards have a quality product.


Of course when I am using a keyboard that is over 20 years old to compose this message; I personally would say that it might be worthwhile to maybe check it out.

If build quality and longevity was the only thing I was looking for in a keyboard, id probably already have one. 


Offline rowdy

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #63 on: Fri, 16 October 2015, 01:01:46 »
All this lively banter kinda disproves the notion that BS keyboards are not popular :)

"Popular" is a relative concept.

With what, billions of computer users in the world, does "popular" mean that 10%, or 1%, or 0.1%, or 0.01%, or less less percent of computer users like them?

But I would say that buckling springs are popular in a limited niche market. And be particularly well-represented on a hobby forum!


Indeed :)
"Because keyboards are accessories to PC makers, they focus on minimizing the manufacturing costs. But that’s incorrect. It’s in HHKB’s slogan, but when America’s cowboys were in the middle of a trip and their horse died, they would leave the horse there. But even if they were in the middle of a desert, they would take their saddle with them. The horse was a consumable good, but the saddle was an interface that their bodies had gotten used to. In the same vein, PCs are consumable goods, while keyboards are important interfaces." - Eiiti Wada

NEC APC-H4100E | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED red | Ducky DK9008 Shine MX blue LED green | Link 900243-08 | CM QFR MX black | KeyCool 87 white MX reds | HHKB 2 Pro | Model M 02-Mar-1993 | Model M 29-Nov-1995 | CM Trigger (broken) | CM QFS MX green | Ducky DK9087 Shine 3 TKL Yellow Edition MX black | Lexmark SSK 21-Apr-1994 | IBM SSK 13-Oct-1987 | CODE TKL MX clear | Model M 122 01-Jun-1988

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Offline Snowdog993

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #64 on: Fri, 16 October 2015, 10:42:32 »
Back when I first started to use a computer, most of the computers I used were of the BS variety. 
... The idea of inferior key-feel didnt even strike my mind, simply because the keyboards were becoming less obnoxious and could be used without being heard from a mile away.  I began to equate lack of keyboard noise with keyboard quality.  For this reason alone, I feel that BS keyboards fell from large scale popularity and into relative obscurity.  ... Still, considering a BS board over the newer models of mechanical switches would feel  like choosing a mouse with a ball over one with an optical sensor.  Why should I opt for the obnoxious ping of a BS board when I could get something quieter/something that sounds better and also still features a good key feel?  I guess nostalgia of the old school could make me mildly interested in seeing how a model M would stack up to modern mechanicals, but im happy enough with all of the other available options at the moment to not even bother.

Did you even read the previous posts?  Sometimes I feel I have to repeat myself in the same thread because someone reads the first post and none of the previous replies.  Maybe that's why I posted *sigh* instead of mentioning my other hobbies instead.

I read the thread.  I was just giving my perspective towards the whole "why isnt BS more popular?" topic.  Condescend much?  :rolleyes:

I have the feeling the younger mindset is:

"If it doesn't have bling, it ain't my thing!"

Sound familiar?  I think we all realize what attracts us as consumers to products.  Marketing and advertisement campaigns always want to "one-up" their competitors with some new gizmo or feature that nobody else has.

You seem to imply that this actually applies to me just because I dont want to buy an old keyboard that I never even liked.  I have used one before.  If you actually read my reply you would know this already.  And for the record I dont own a flashy keyboard full of bling, nor do I want one.

I am not going to argue the point.  I already made mine.  I think time is the only factor that makes you realize, that maybe, just maybe those guys that use IBM keyboards have a quality product.


Of course when I am using a keyboard that is over 20 years old to compose this message; I personally would say that it might be worthwhile to maybe check it out.

If build quality and longevity was the only thing I was looking for in a keyboard, id probably already have one.

I wasn't being condescending whatsoever.  I just find what you are saying to be judgmental because you don't want keyboards to make sound.  They do have those iPads and laser projection keyboards if you prefer no sound at all.  Is that what you really are inclined to use?

Offline SamirD

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #65 on: Fri, 16 October 2015, 11:48:48 »
Both are relics of an earlier age of PCs imo.
"Those that don't study history are doomed to repeat it."  Another timeless classic, lol.

You're welcome to your opinion, but it did ruffle some feathers in the IBM camp.  No harm, no foul imo.  :thumb:


Offline Nai_Calus

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #66 on: Fri, 16 October 2015, 18:16:48 »
Lack of availability and sane layouts on the ones worth using.

I mean sure you can get Happy Meal toy 2KRO Ms for cheap anywhere and you won't even have to complain about having a Windows key, but... Well it's a 2KRO board that feels and performs inferior to the Model F.

F feels amazing, sounds great, NKRO... It's also harder and more expensive to find. XTs are easiest and cheapest, but have a funky layout. AT is probably the best compromise of price and availability, but still expensive. 122s are the size of boats and not that common. 4704s have a near modern layout but have absurd bezels, weigh a ton, and even the most common, the 107, isn't cheap. The 77 key is unobtanium, the Kishsaver is rare and expensive, the 50 key is basically a demented number pad if you even find one...

Oh and all of them require at least a converter, if not a replacement controller. And while Ms have rivets Fs have foam, which can need replacing.

Ms don't meet some people's needs and while Fs do work for things like gaming, not everyone wants a goofy layout or a giant boat for a keyboard that weighs 12 pounds.

And while I love Bertha's clanging, some people don't want boats that sound like a cat in a pile of springs.
- IBM 4704 Model F 107-key "Bertha"
Other boards: Kinesis Essential, Infinity(G.Clears), Ergodox(MX Blues), Monoprice 9433

Eternally searching for Celestial Blue BS V2 and blue/purple Bros.

Offline eternalmetal

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #67 on: Fri, 16 October 2015, 18:32:09 »
I wasn't being condescending whatsoever.  I just find what you are saying to be judgmental because you don't want keyboards to make sound.  They do have those iPads and laser projection keyboards if you prefer no sound at all.  Is that what you really are inclined to use?

Ah, if not black, then white.  Im not saying that I desire a completely silent keyboard; actually I like a little bit of feedback noise when typing just so that I know that im hitting the keys.  Just like some people dont like the cheap plastic click of an mx blue, I personally have an aversion to the pingy loudness of BS boards.  It's almost like im a pariah for mentioning this, when surely the rise in popularity of rubber dome boards was because they were so much quieter.  I do remember them having a pretty nice tactile feel though.

For the record, I use a RF 87U 55g board, and while quiet, it is still not what I would consider silent.  It has a subdued, dampened noise that I personally find to be much nicer in sound than a BS board. 

Both are relics of an earlier age of PCs imo.
"Those that don't study history are doomed to repeat it."  Another timeless classic, lol.

You're welcome to your opinion, but it did ruffle some feathers in the IBM camp.  No harm, no foul imo.  :thumb:

Yea, I understand the loyalty that goes along with retro gear, especially if it can stand the test of time and still be a quality product.  I guess my life experience just makes me a bit jaded when it comes to the old IBM boards, which is why I view the shift in popularity as a natural progression, even if the change wasnt all for the good.  It's unfortunate that keyboards arent "built like they used to be", but now there is much more variety and choices than there ever was before, which imo is a good thing.

Offline SamirD

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #68 on: Fri, 16 October 2015, 18:49:58 »
It's unfortunate that keyboards arent "built like they used to be", but now there is much more variety and choices than there ever was before, which imo is a good thing.
What you posted got me thinking and I think the reason they're not built like they used to be is because there are more varieties and choices than before.  Let me explain.

With infinite choice, you can truly build a one-off.  But the problem is that one-off is only good for one sale--you.  And to make anything affordable, it has to be made in mass quantities.  So if you can't increase the sales, and you can't increase the price, the only thing left to do is decrease the manufacturing cost.  Unfortunately, this means that as we approach infinite customization, we'll approach crap quality. :(


Offline chyros

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #69 on: Fri, 16 October 2015, 19:19:22 »
It's unfortunate that keyboards arent "built like they used to be", but now there is much more variety and choices than there ever was before, which imo is a good thing.
Wait what?!

Nowadays your choices consist of a slew of Cherry boards that are either cost-cut or cost-cut clones, Topre, a cost-cut version of a cost-cut version of a buckling springs board and a clone of a clone of Alps switches. That's about it. It used to be Model Fs and Ms in all kinds of shapes and sizes, a million types of Alps switches, NMB Hi-Teks, SMKs, BTC, Fujitsu, Mitsumi, NEC, ITW, Oaks, RAFI, Honeywell, and many more, including all kinds of clones and switches and variations we haven't even found or documented yet - AND the stuff mentioned above.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #70 on: Fri, 16 October 2015, 20:33:31 »

122s are the size of boats and not that common.

4704s have a near modern layout but have absurd bezels, weigh a ton, and even the most common, the 107, isn't cheap.

Oh and all of them require at least a converter, if not a replacement controller. And while Ms have rivets Fs have foam, which can need replacing.

Ms don't meet some people's needs and while Fs do work for things like gaming, not everyone wants a goofy layout or a giant boat for a keyboard that weighs 12 pounds.


I must take issue with several comments here.

The F-122 is not all that hard to find in the low-$100 price point, but it does take some work, including a $20 Soarer's Teensy and probably cutting a new foam mat. The first time, these things are quite challenging, but then they become mundane, if still tedious. And even an F-122 weighs only 8.25 lb / 3.75 kg.

I now have an F-107 that is both smaller and lighter than an F-122 (the metal case is actually rather lightweight) although it does require an xwhatsit and lacks the upper row(s) of function keys.

If you can sort out the function keys on the left, the F-77 would be a near-ideal choice.
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Offline njbair

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #71 on: Fri, 16 October 2015, 20:53:41 »
I haven't bought an F yet because I'm never sure what I'd be getting into. I wish there was a Model F that matched the standard 104-key layout. F-122 is close, but huge and I'm not sure I could get used to its size.

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Offline eternalmetal

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #72 on: Fri, 16 October 2015, 21:09:40 »
It's unfortunate that keyboards arent "built like they used to be", but now there is much more variety and choices than there ever was before, which imo is a good thing.
Wait what?!

Nowadays your choices consist of a slew of Cherry boards that are either cost-cut or cost-cut clones, Topre, a cost-cut version of a cost-cut version of a buckling springs board and a clone of a clone of Alps switches. That's about it. It used to be Model Fs and Ms in all kinds of shapes and sizes, a million types of Alps switches, NMB Hi-Teks, SMKs, BTC, Fujitsu, Mitsumi, NEC, ITW, Oaks, RAFI, Honeywell, and many more, including all kinds of clones and switches and variations we haven't even found or documented yet - AND the stuff mentioned above.

You forgot about rubber domes :p

Though good point, with regards to switch types there is definitely a more limited selection; I was thinking more in the idea of form sizes, keycaps, and media/gaming keyboards.  Not sure how many of the older switches are better than the modern variants, but I am kind of interested in knowing how I would like some of the Alps and NMB switches.  Thanks for reminding me that I probably havent reached an end-game KB, and the one im looking for is probably in the past, lol.  I just know BS isnt it, but I guess that doesnt dismiss all of the other variants that never really came into popularity - all of which ive never tried; I never used to put much thought into them until the rubber dome options were all terrible.

Offline chyros

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #73 on: Fri, 16 October 2015, 21:24:41 »
It's unfortunate that keyboards arent "built like they used to be", but now there is much more variety and choices than there ever was before, which imo is a good thing.
Wait what?!

Nowadays your choices consist of a slew of Cherry boards that are either cost-cut or cost-cut clones, Topre, a cost-cut version of a cost-cut version of a buckling springs board and a clone of a clone of Alps switches. That's about it. It used to be Model Fs and Ms in all kinds of shapes and sizes, a million types of Alps switches, NMB Hi-Teks, SMKs, BTC, Fujitsu, Mitsumi, NEC, ITW, Oaks, RAFI, Honeywell, and many more, including all kinds of clones and switches and variations we haven't even found or documented yet - AND the stuff mentioned above.

You forgot about rubber domes :p

Though good point, with regards to switch types there is definitely a more limited selection; I was thinking more in the idea of form sizes, keycaps, and media/gaming keyboards.  Not sure how many of the older switches are better than the modern variants, but I am kind of interested in knowing how I would like some of the Alps and NMB switches.  Thanks for reminding me that I probably havent reached an end-game KB, and the one im looking for is probably in the past, lol.  I just know BS isnt it, but I guess that doesnt dismiss all of the other variants that never really came into popularity - all of which ive never tried; I never used to put much thought into them until the rubber dome options were all terrible.
Yeah, good point. Key Tronic, the king of rubber ****e, was (and possibly is?) the world's largest manufacturer of keyboards back in the day. Boy, did they do well out of their polymeric pieces of poop.

Both NMB Hi-Teks and Alps are great switches IMO, it's a massive disservice they're no longer made. They're also very different, both from eachother as well as from BS and Cherry. If you want to try these out I'd recommend a board with white Alps (probably best not to shell out for a blue Alps board unless you know you'll like them) and an NMB board with black, clicky Space Invaders (model should end in C+ or possibly CW+). My video reviews include both a black Space Invader board as well as a whole bunch of Alps boards, three of them white. Check the link in my sig if you're interested :) .
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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #74 on: Fri, 16 October 2015, 22:13:41 »

I must take issue with several comments here.

The F-122 is not all that hard to find in the low-$100 price point, but it does take some work, including a $20 Soarer's Teensy and probably cutting a new foam mat. The first time, these things are quite challenging, but then they become mundane, if still tedious. And even an F-122 weighs only 8.25 lb / 3.75 kg.

I now have an F-107 that is both smaller and lighter than an F-122 (the metal case is actually rather lightweight) although it does require an xwhatsit and lacks the upper row(s) of function keys.

If you can sort out the function keys on the left, the F-77 would be a near-ideal choice.

Sorry, it's hard to meticulously fact check everything to your standards posting from a phone. :P

Interesting on the 107 weight, I got about 10lbs weighing Bertha(which is what I was thinking of with '12lb boat', which is also meant to be somewhat hyperbole since I haven't found an exact figure for the weight anywhere online in the past), but I don't have a highly accurate scale that will go high enough or take something that size so it's admittedly a rough figure. Regardless of the exact weight, the point stands - Most people do not want giant boat keyboards that weigh a ton. Hell, if the F-107 or F-122 weighed half a pound most people wouldn't want it just on size alone. People even take exception to the size of the Kishsaver.

Or the time cost of restoring the F-122s you see crop up on ebay from time to time(Last time I went looking before today a few weeks back there weren't any; just M 122s). There's a decent one up right now along with three gross-as-hell ones, but at any given moment your choices are likely to be expensive to begin with, not in working order, and filthy beyond belief - Not a project most look forward to or necessarily have the time for. And even then given the lack of love for fullsize in the hobby people are probably still going to go for a cheap XT to noodle about with just because it's smaller.

The F-77 is a good approximation of a TKL, yes, without the function row, which can be solved by mapping a Fn layer with them. Admittedly awkward if you need dedicated Fn keys. The problem is that it's, as I noted, unobtanium. They just don't show up, which leaves the difficult-to-come-by Kishsaver and the relatively common but huge and expensive 107. (Which solves some of the FN key problems as you can slap most of them on the left hand bank of keys, but still not all of them, and most people are going to need a bigger desk to use a 107. I actually had to extend my keyboard tray to have room for Bertha and my mouse.)

The thing still remains that the entry barrier is on the higher end, be it cost, availability, or time/skill. Want one that just works? You can get a pre-converted F-107, it's what I did since I have poor coordination for working with things and little experience soldering, but it will cost you. Want a cheap one? Enjoy the funky layout of the XT and needing to clean it and get a converter. Want a full-size? Enjoy expense or tedious restoration work. Want a 60%? Enjoy waiting for one to come up and spending lots of money. Want a TKL? ...I'm sorry. XD; 

But yes, degrading foam, up to 30+ years of filth, dirty PCBs, etc. Chances are really good you can make it work eventually, but it's going to be a pain. And work does have a cost - Getting or making a convertor; or getting and soldering in an xwhatsit controller depending, if you didn't already own a soldering iron(And not everyone in the hobby does yet) getting one and learning to use it, time spent cleaning, time spent punching holes in foam, cleaning, etc. Even the time has a cost. So much easier to get an MX or Topre or Matias board that just works out of the box and doesn't have decades of grime.
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Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #75 on: Sat, 17 October 2015, 08:07:44 »
All true, which is why I have felt cheated when I have sold a couple of modernized F-122s in the $200-$300 range.

People wail like banshees over those conversions, yet will pay that price range gladly for certain new little plastic keyboards.

PS - what is a Bertha?
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Offline fanpeople

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #76 on: Sat, 17 October 2015, 08:20:17 »
All true, which is why I have felt cheated when I have sold a couple of modernized F-122s in the $200-$300 range.

People wail like banshees over those conversions, yet will pay that price range gladly for certain new little plastic keyboards.

PS - what is a Bertha?

Nai_Calus's IBM 4704 Model F 107-key "Bertha" (see sig).

Offline tararais

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #77 on: Sat, 17 October 2015, 13:04:23 »
All true, which is why I have felt cheated when I have sold a couple of modernized F-122s in the $200-$300 range.

People wail like banshees over those conversions, yet will pay that price range gladly for certain new little plastic keyboards.

PS - what is a Bertha?
 
I mean.. isn't an F-122 plastic shell with metal plate?

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #78 on: Sat, 17 October 2015, 16:19:01 »
I mean.. isn't an F-122 plastic shell with metal plate?

There is plastic in any keyboard, of course. There are 2 thick steel plates in the inner assembly of the F, plus the bottom case (I would call it the "pan") is also heavy steel (except for the AT) and the internal assembly screws down to it. The top shell of the case is plastic, of course, but is not important and I used one of my F-122s for over a year without the top shell on it at all.

Clearly, ancient IBM iron is an "acquired taste" and people either love them or hate them - nobody is indifferent to them.

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Offline tararais

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #79 on: Sat, 17 October 2015, 16:22:57 »
I mean.. isn't an F-122 plastic shell with metal plate?

There is plastic in any keyboard, of course. There are 2 thick steel plates in the inner assembly of the F, plus the bottom case (I would call it the "pan") is also heavy steel (except for the AT) and the internal assembly screws down to it. The top shell of the case is plastic, of course, but is not important and I used one of my F-122s for over a year without the top shell on it at all.

Clearly, ancient IBM iron is an "acquired taste" and people either love them or hate them - nobody is indifferent to them.
 
I simply wanted to point out that it's rather hypocritical to bash on keyboards for having plastic in them when all the BS boards have just as much. In fact, for the 'modern' price of a Model M at $450, you could easily buy an actually metal keyboard.

Offline FoxWolf1

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #80 on: Sat, 17 October 2015, 16:43:40 »
Little bit simplistic to think of things in terms of "metal vs plastic," isn't it?

Different plastics, and different versions (alloys? grades? not sure what they're called) can have very different characteristics...
« Last Edit: Sat, 17 October 2015, 16:45:27 by FoxWolf1 »
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Offline Ellipse

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #81 on: Sat, 17 October 2015, 17:38:37 »
Nai_Calus - FYI the F62 and F77 you mentioned will soon no longer be unobtanium - I don't mean to toot my own horn but I have been working with a few GH and DT members on selling brand new F62s and F77 Model F's made this year for $325 each (over in the Interest Checks subforum).  The prototypes will be finished in a few weeks and I hope to accept orders starting in mid-November.  They will be metal cases and using the same materials as the original where possible.

Offline SamirD

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Re: Why aren't buckling spring keyboards more popular?
« Reply #82 on: Mon, 19 October 2015, 21:46:27 »
Nai_Calus - FYI the F62 and F77 you mentioned will soon no longer be unobtanium - I don't mean to toot my own horn but I have been working with a few GH and DT members on selling brand new F62s and F77 Model F's made this year for $325 each (over in the Interest Checks subforum).  The prototypes will be finished in a few weeks and I hope to accept orders starting in mid-November.  They will be metal cases and using the same materials as the original where possible.
Nice.  Glad to see some new BS products.