Author Topic: TrulyErgonomic vs Kinesis Advantage Pro (Read 96106 times)

Architect · « **on:** Mon, 03 January 2011, 10:42:46 »

Hi All,
Glad to meet you all, just stumbled on this site which is very exciting since I've been a computer input device freak for decades, ever since I lost the feeling in my forearms from using PDP-11's in grad school.

At any rate, this is a placeholder thread for a TrulyErgonomic versus Kinesis Advantage Pro comparison, as I've used the Kinesis for 15 years, and have ordered two TrulyErgonomics, due for delivery at the end of the month. I ordered the Blank 109 layout.

I'll update this thread with a comparative review when the TrulyErgonomic comes in, but in the meantime here is my reasoning behind this sight unseen purchase. As I said the Kinesis Advantage Pro has been my keyboard of choice for decades. It's a wonderful keyboard, that didn't take much of a learning curve to get started, but which has many advantages, particularly the use of control keys under the thumbs. However it has some deficiencies.

The function keys are weird little rubber keys that are hard to access and press. They're so cheap I never use them.
It supports only two control keys. I prefer symmetrical layouts, and on Mac OS X I require three control keys, command, option and control.
It has palm rests which are well known ergonomic problem. The tendency is for you to rest your palms on the keyboard while typing which is horrible for your hands.
Physically the keyboard is large. It's much larger than needs to be and is difficult to find adequate space on my desk. Additionally the keyboard is quite high which makes it difficult to place at the correct height.
The keyboard firmware is quite old by now. I'm having problems with it and OS X. I contacted the company but they are unwilling to work on the issue. I've never used the on keyboard macros, because it is far more powerful and convenient to use operating system macros.

In frustration I designed my own keyboard and considered either hacking it or having a manufactured, but fortunately this company came along and it for me, incorporating many of my ideas and several new innovative ones, as it so happened. Disclaimer, I have zero affiliation with the company.
Here are the advantages I see with this keyboard

It is small and relatively low to the desktop, and the palm rest is optional.
The arrow keys are brilliant innovation in my opinion, both in placement and the dual nature, one for page up page down another for line up line down
The keyboard is symmetrical and with the options I got supports three modifier keys.
It's available with blank keycaps. I never look at the keyboard, but dislike it when the key caps don't match the key functionality. Especially I dislike it when a keyboard has Windows keycaps and is being used on a Macintosh, or vice versa.
There are a number of extra keys available for other functions.
There is a row of center keys available.
The keyboard can be programmatically remapped.
The function keys are real Cherry Browns

There are my notes on the two keyboards, of course the keyboard could be terrible, I don't know until I'll get it, but I have high hopes. If it turns out as I expect I'll have two Kinesis Advantage Pro's (hardly used as I got them recently as replacements) for sale.

Stay tuned ...

Input Nirvana · « **Reply #1 on:** Mon, 03 January 2011, 11:16:23 »

I'm gonna throw out some questions and comments, I'd like your feedback

-The Truly is still months away from shipping, right? Website says March, is that still accurate? I'd like to try it.

-The Kinesis Advantage has all 3 modifiers, control, option, command.

-Function keys are odd, fortunately they are just function keys. But still odd, definitely a compromise.

-You don't rest your hands on the Kinesis. It's an option when you stop typing for a moment so you don't move your hand from the keyboard.

-The Contour is only 16" wide...that's not very big, is it? The Truly is about 13"?

-We use the Kinesis on the most recent Mac OSX, what issues are you having, maybe I can help? It is my understanding from Kinesis that they are currently in the process of new firmware. No release date though.

-Aren't OS macros always better that keyboard macros? I don't know, so I'm asking.

-The Kinesis is fully programmable/re-mapable and has a second layer.

-The arrow keys can be used for line up/down and page up/down as well.

Please take a look at my Kinesis Contour Split modification (in my sig) I would like your thoughts!!!!

Lanx · « **Reply #2 on:** Mon, 03 January 2011, 12:58:56 »

more ergo ppl is cool, check out my mod too in my sig!

Architect · « **Reply #3 on:** Mon, 03 January 2011, 13:09:07 »

Quote from: input nirvana;272354

I'm gonna throw out some questions and comments, I'd like your feedback

-The TrulyErgonomic keyboard has a release date of end of January, about four weeks, for my order. The March orders are a second batch.

-Maybe I didn't make clear that the Kinesis doesn't support symmetrical 3 key modifiers as there are only two modifiers per thumb. I prefer a symmetrical arrangement with three modifiers per side.

-Function key usage is alive and well, OS X uses them for computer control, visual studio uses F5/F6 for doing a build, etc.

-In 15 years of Kinesis usage I am still unable to keep from resting my hand on the palm rests more than I should. I used to work in the ergo dept at my company and found the same results with others.

- Don't know about the contour but the Advantage is the biggest keyboard I've used.

- The Advantage requires to be unplugged and re-plugged in after every time I sleep the computer to reset the keyboard firmware, which is to say every day, on OS X. Doesn't matter which USB port it's on, a hub, and I've tried it with two Advantage Pro's. I suspect that Windows is getting some kind of USB reset on wake from sleep (the keyboard gives a click) that OS X isn't doing, however the company is washing their hands of it, and I'm not going to keep replugging the keyboard every day so it's useless.

- I don't see why keyboard macros are better than OS, rather the reverse as it's more powerful. For example, the software I use is context sensitive, meaning the macro behaves differently based on which program is in the foreground.

- Yes the Kinesis arrow key handling was a wonderful alternative in it's day, however the TrulyErgonomic dual arrow key design is superior, I believe.

Your project is intriguing, not least of all for the intermissions. The Function key mod looks great, as for splitting the keyboard I'm not sure I would go that far, were you doing that so as to have a mouse in the center? I've accomplished that by either using the Logitech Marble Mouse, which fits perfectly. All you need is three rubber feet on the bottom. The Magic Trackpad, with rubber feet, also works fairly well. The older PC style trackpads also work too.

I only did that to save desk space though. The keyboard is spaced well enough for me, and in general I find it somewhat unergonomic to have a mouse in the keyboard center. Anyhow, your project looks great, and I considered doing something like that once to add another pair of modifier keys, but after looking at the internal design of the Kinesis decided it would be too much work.

I'm really, really hopeful that the TrulyErgonomic will be my end all/be all keyboard. We'll see.

Forsaken · « **Reply #4 on:** Mon, 03 January 2011, 18:49:34 »

I'm not sure they're even all that comparable, being very different form factors. Truly is flat, Advantage is curved, Truly keeps your hands close together, Advantage separates them, Truly may, or may not even ship, there's a lot of skepticism around here about the reality of it, Advantage has been around 15 years and proven to last over a decade in everyday use.

It's pretty bold of you to preorder TWO of a keyboard that very few, if any, have ever layed fingers on thus far! =p

Architect · « **Reply #5 on:** Mon, 03 January 2011, 19:06:56 »

As two keyboards billed as ergonomic they're comparable. On the skepticism, here and elsewhere I've seen a lot of reactions like 'bull$hit, how can they call it ergonomic when it's not even curved', and other similarly intelligent statements. Frankly I don't understand that, with the paucity of choices I would expect people be willing to give them a chance.

Otherwise I agree I'm taking a risk, but I caught them in a really good sale, and I'm unhappy with Kinesis's lack of interest in getting it to work with OS X/MacPro. Especially since I've bought over $1500 worth of gear from them over the years. Two of the Truly's costs less than one of the Advantage Pros (at the latest discount price at least)

Quote from: Forsaken;272640

I'm not sure they're even all that comparable, being very different form factors. Truly is flat, Advantage is curved, Truly keeps your hands close together, Advantage separates them, Truly may, or may not even ship, there's a lot of skepticism around here about the reality of it, Advantage has been around 15 years and proven to last over a decade in everyday use.

It's pretty bold of you to preorder TWO of a keyboard that very few, if any, have ever layed fingers on thus far! =p

Lanx · « **Reply #6 on:** Mon, 03 January 2011, 19:30:51 »

inward slopes makes a load of difference imo vs flat, imo just as good as having a split. The TE doesn't incorporate an inward slope or concave/kinesis is already much fail imo.

Keymonger · « **Reply #7 on:** Mon, 03 January 2011, 20:04:14 »

Quote from: Lanx;272651

inward slopes makes a load of difference imo vs flat, imo just as good as having a split. The TE doesn't incorporate an inward slope or concave/kinesis is already much fail imo.

Much fail? The vast majority of keyboards are flat. The TECK just adds some much needed sense to a senseless design, that doesn't make it fail. It just prevents it from being 'truly' ergonomic. But it's a huge improvement over regular keyboards, surely.

A better design would be something like two separate halves so you can angle them any way you like but also add a slope and other such things. The uTron board is like that but it costs an arm and leg I'm afraid.

msiegel · « **Reply #8 on:** Mon, 03 January 2011, 20:10:14 »

Quote from: Keymonger;272662

The uTron board is like that but it costs an arm and leg I'm afraid.

on uTron, arm and leg are independently adjustable

/obligatory, sorry HaaTa

Architect · « **Reply #9 on:** Mon, 03 January 2011, 20:44:57 »

I'm not so convinced about the importance of split keyboards, tilt etc. I'm also a pianist, and I can play for hours and my hands and arms get stronger. Use a bad mouse or keyboard for an hour and I'm toast - why? A piano keyboard is flat - perfectly flat on a high end grand piano such as mine.

I'm convinced that one important factor is that on the piano there is a much greater range of motion. Evolution obviously designed our bodies for a range of motions, not repetitive ones.

Lanx · « **Reply #10 on:** Mon, 03 January 2011, 20:57:01 »

Quote from: Keymonger;272662

Much fail? The vast majority of keyboards are flat. The TECK just adds some much needed sense to a senseless design, that doesn't make it fail. It just prevents it from being 'truly' ergonomic. But it's a huge improvement over regular keyboards, surely.

A better design would be something like two separate halves so you can angle them any way you like but also add a slope and other such things. The uTron board is like that but it costs an arm and leg I'm afraid.

The TE is much fail in that it uses a flat design, this is especially much LOL when you read the TE literature and how they overlook any aspect of inward slope or concave because they can't implement it while other proven competitors can and have (when they have rated these ergonomic elements as middle of the road and the TE is the best of the best).

Let's break it down, a TE is 2 split angled 5x4 pads with a few modifiers in between on the side and on the top. then we have the vertically different heighted keycaps as well.

I personally find the angled inward slope absolutely essential, especially if you've used something like that for a few years along with a nice negtive slope. I've never used the concaved kinesis keypad, but i've put in a slight concave with my keycap placement as well and i like actually too as well.

The TE could be better and really be called a TE if it implemented some more ergonomic elements of course it'd cost more but imo the TE is a nice "basic" ergonomic design atm.

Yes the kinesis has the freestyle that could be that way too, to have inward slopes or even doing it tie fighter style.

iMav · « **Reply #11 on:** Mon, 03 January 2011, 21:14:34 »

I have a Kinesis Advantage as well as a Truly Ergonomic (I'm skeptical as well about whether they will actually ship) on order. Assuming I receive the TE, I'll gladly share my thoughts on both keyboards as well.

Lanx · « **Reply #12 on:** Mon, 03 January 2011, 21:20:56 »

Quote from: iMav;272692

I have a Kinesis Advantage as well as a Truly Ergonomic (I'm skeptical as well about whether they will actually ship) on order. Assuming I receive the TE, I'll gladly share my thoughts on both keyboards as well.

and here i thought you were a Topre or die kind of guy!

iMav · « **Reply #13 on:** Mon, 03 January 2011, 21:29:55 »

Quote from: Lanx;272698

and here i thought you were a Topre or die kind of guy!

Nope. Cherry blues are my favorite switch. The HHKB is my favorite layout. The topre switches are adequate enough that the HHKB Pro is my favorite keyboard...but it is the layout that is the deciding factor.

However, I like to have several 'boards around...including a good sampling of what is popular with the various geekhack factions.

I recently received an I-T Touch tenkeyless, aka the Leopold, and also have a Choc mini on order. Many of them end up being sold to other GH members...but I at least have the frame of reference.

HaaTa · « **Reply #14 on:** Mon, 03 January 2011, 23:04:08 »

Quote from: msiegel;272669

on uTron, arm and leg are independently adjustable

/obligatory, sorry HaaTa

No problem, I haven't been keeping a close watch on GeekHack through the holidays.

And while the legs are adjustable, I actually prefer the uTron flat while standing. Sitting, have it tilted is nice, as it places the elbows in a more neutral position.

Anyways, once (and if) the TE keyboard ships, I'll be ordering one as well (with MX Blues, blank, and lots of keys).

sixty · « **Reply #15 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 00:02:10 »

Kinesis:

pros:
* real keyboard
cons:
* rare and expensive

TrulyErgonomic:

pros:
SEVERAL EXCELLENT REVIEWS
WONDERFUL 3D RENDER
cons:
imaginary product

Yeah, sorry ergopeople. I'm done trolling back off to the normal keyboards. :hand:

Lanx · « **Reply #16 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 00:17:32 »

Quote from: sixty;272756

Yeah, sorry ergopeople. I'm done trolling back off to the normal keyboards. :hand:

It's not really a troll post when it speaks the truth.
Imaginary glowing reviews are suspect and against FTC law. (unless those reviewers had a prototype to play with but somehow we none of them ever produced a pic)

msiegel · « **Reply #17 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 00:22:54 »

Quote from: Lanx;272762

Imaginary glowing reviews are suspect

especially when they share the same peculiar grammar, as if they were all written by one person

/conspiracy theory

Lanx · « **Reply #18 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 01:19:37 »

actually they're a canadian based company, maybe canada has very lax FTC laws on reviews that were put through a "spinner", spinners are tools that basically replace words with substitutes basically a thesaurus on steroids.

Architect · « **Reply #19 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 07:44:53 »

Wow, a lot of cynicism and suspicion here. No offense intended, but maybe you folks should try starting a company and introducing a new product yourselves before jumping to conspiracy theories? I've done so before, and have a lot of sympathy for others who attempt it.

Please let's not hijack the thread unless they don't deliver.

Best -

sixty · « **Reply #20 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 11:22:14 »

Quote from: Architect;272882

Wow, a lot of cynicism and suspicion here. No offense intended, but maybe you folks should try starting a company and introducing a new product yourselves before jumping to conspiracy theories? I've done so before, and have a lot of sympathy for others who attempt it.

Please let's not hijack the thread unless they don't deliver.

Best -

Considering they already failed to deliver once or twice(?) and keep extending "shipping dates" every three months or so, I think some people feel a bit sour about this company. Especially after people (who also planned to invest) requested pictures of a working prototype were shrugged off with a 150px picture of a quality that would even make Unicomp webdesigners blush. Personally I will not believe in this product until it is actually out.

I have no problem supporting upstarts with a new product if its done right. I would send my paycheck and my first born son to lowpoly to fund the miniguru if he asked. Same for clickclack. We have a transparent development status inview with these guys. We know when they fail, because they admit doing so. We know our money is actually going somewhere and is being worked with. Several other companies offer similar inviews. We often get to enjoy status updates with a "developer blog" or similar.

With TrulyErgonomic this is different. For all we know the keyboard could be the outcome of a 3d rendering student's last homework. What they call a "blog" is actually a static html page filled with reviews. Lets not forget all of the review on their website are fake. Even interviews on the infomercial channel are more convincing than those reviews. All pictures are fake renders. The only real picture is a picture of the switches and keycaps, that could well be from almost any other keyboard.

I could extend this further with cynic comments about the product being made in America, and end it in a great finale about the also credit based American finance world and what happened to it... but I'll just stop here.

I apologize for hijacking your thread with my negative views, but felt I should explain my previous "trolling" in detail. So there you have it.

cbf123 · « **Reply #21 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 11:52:17 »

Personally I suspect it's a tiny company on a shoestring budget without a lot of marketing expertise.

Given the current promise of shipping in late January with another round in March, if it doesn't ship by February I could see a lot of people kicking up a fuss with Visa/Mastercard. We'll know in a month or so whether it's real.

Back to the original topic--I tried out the Kinesis Advantage and as the OP mentioned the function keys suck. Also, the remapping of the keys ends up putting some keys commonly used in programming in very awkward locations--the person I was talking to said that many programmers immediately remap keys to better locations. I currently use the MS ergo boards. The chance to get something similar but tenkeyless and with mechanical switches for less than half the price of an Advantage is intriguing.

Architect · « **Reply #22 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 19:17:19 »

Fair enough sixty, thanks for the explanation. A couple of points, first I don't understand why those reviews appear fake. They are available independently at distinct web sites, a few of which I'm familiar with. Secondly there are pictures on the site which look real, probably from the proto units. This one in particular

Keyboard image

On shipment delays, they made the classic product introduction mistake of telling before having the goods. I did the same thing once, and learned that if you can at all do it, have the product completely wrapped up before intro. Sometimes you can't or don't want to do that though. In this case, it seems they were looking for early feedback (and did modify the design based on that), and two they probably needed the initial order capital. Doing a production run like this costs a load of cash. Plastic injection moulds alone can run, I don't know how much these days, but I recall numbers like $40k on up. At any rate delays in product introduction are normal. I've never seen a new product, especially from a startup, come out on time.

At any rate who knows, maybe it's a couple of scammers who took our money, but there are so few people doing ergonomic designs I'm in favor of giving them the benefit of the doubt for now.

Lanx · « **Reply #23 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 20:47:55 »

Quote from: Architect;273253

first I don't understand why those reviews appear fake. They are available independently at distinct web sites, a few of which I'm familiar with.

we're talking about these:
Looks unique, feels unique, it is unique, one of a kind; exclusively designed for comfort. - T.E.

Truly Ergonomic is one of those few Corporations who really get obsessed over perfection once they get interested in a specific subject. - Louise C.

All keys are specifically located at the most convenient positions, everything is where it is supposed to be, and becomes second nature within a few hours from hunt-and-peck people to ultra fast touch-typists. - Lilliana O.

Style and Beauty have at last come together in the practical Truly Ergonomic Keyboard, an exceptional unique device uniting engineering and art. Breathtakingly impressive, Remarkably magnificent, Out of this world. - Oscar B.

The smart looking Truly Ergonomic Keyboard is the easiest to use and best-engineered computer keyboard available. Its highly distinctive, efficient, and stylish design, even lets you regain your space with a small footprint. - Sheldon R.

Embraces attributes like friendliness, ease of use, freedom, and a built-in fun factor that's clear off the charts. It looks so simple and so obvious, the simplest is always the most efficient solution. Brace yourself for a faster superhighway at your fingertips. - Kim Y.

The Truly Ergonomic Computer Keyboard is easier on the hands compared to old-fashioned keyboards. I am amaze with the simplicity of its unique design. - Angela D.

The secret is knowing what to leave out, understanding that in the complex world of computers, less is much more. - Alex S.

Everybody is raving as time was smartly invested in the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard specific research tasks to accommodate all keys in the best possible arrangement to enhance productivity. You can easily type what you really want to type, whenever you need it; just type it. - Christine G.

Keys are full-size, nothing is squeeze, everything is perfectly positioned so there are no confusions and no mistyping. People that use it, claim that they would never return to the old keyboard, specially after experiencing the productivity and work enabling advantages of the unique Truly Ergonomic Computer Keyboard. You must hurry, the more time to make this favorable decision, the more time to start benefiting from it. - Brian L.

The Truly Ergonomic Keyboard is much more comfortable to use, and places a lot less stress on your hands and wrists while typing. The only drawback is that when you start using it you most likely dislike it until you get use to it, fortunately is only a few hours. I highly recommend it, get one now! - Sandra E.

These are the most insincere reviews on the internet, these can't be real.

Plus those those distinct websites you talk about are shill sites, employing the lowest common denominator journalists who'd take any amount of money to write an imaginary review. Read each of those reviews carefully, you probably "think" you did since you plopped down for 2 units, but if you re-read each review from gizmag/discovery or whatever... they NEVER mention ever touching the unit but rather they review the "idea" of what the TE can be. In effect they are reviewing a press release.

Many of us want the TE to be real, me included, you think i want to build a better TE keyboard? i don't honestly i'd rather pony up 200 bucks, but they are receiving far more skeptical views than their drummed up marketing.

msiegel · « **Reply #24 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 20:50:48 »

does anyone have a writing style analyzer? i could swear the same person wrote all those

edit: Lanx is right (below)

Lanx · « **Reply #25 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 20:53:48 »

Quote from: msiegel;273309

does anyone have a writing style analyzer? i could swear the same person wrote all those

someone already did that, probably in the TE thread.

Architect · « **Reply #26 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 21:20:21 »

I think this thread has derailed.

iMav · « **Reply #27 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 21:39:42 »

No need to close the thread. It has not been significantly derailed. It is valid to be skeptical of a keyboard that is, up to this point, vaporware. Several of the members here (myself included) have pre-ordered and certainly want the keyboard to be everything it is billed to be.

You, as a long-time Kinesis user should know that it is one thing to claim ergonomic bliss...it is quite another to deliver!

I think we should all, at best, be cautiously optimistic. They have obviously fabricated some PR for themselves. All start ups do it. Why would you take offense at us calling a spade a spade? As someone who has pre-ordered as well, I would think you are going into this with eyes wide open just like the rest of us.

Or do you have some additional information that we are not privy to??

(BTW, TE has received an invitation to join our vendor forums...we'll see how serious they are about customer service and open communication)

Oqsy · « **Reply #28 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 22:44:48 »

I don't speak for anyone but myself here, but I find the initial post of this thread to be just as strange and inexplicable as the reviews on the website. I have some serious reservations about the intention of the original post, and believe it's from someone trying to stir up pre-orders rather than a non-review review based on theories of what the board could be. Pre-ordered two? Why on earth would you even do that? I seriously doubt anyone here, and there are some HARDCORE typists, would pre-order two boards that might not even exist. It's even more curious to show up on a new forum to tell everyone about it, and defend over and over a company that has proven to be at least lacking in communication, if not outright misleading. msiegel put it very mildly, but I won't be quite so generous. This thread has every indication of being a spam advertisement for a non-product coming directly from someone involved in the "company" who can, offhand, speak with "expertise" about the industry, almost but never quite revealing enough to indicate their true identity.

iMav, if I'm out of line, feel free to delete this post, and I apologize to the other forum members, but I feel like someone is trying to yank a hook deep into the jaws of geekhackers, and I don't like it.

Lanx · « **Reply #29 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 22:49:31 »

Quote from: cbf123;272992

Given the current promise of shipping in late January with another round in March, if it doesn't ship by February I could see a lot of people kicking up a fuss with Visa/Mastercard.

This was already discussed previously in that they only take paypal and paypal only has a 20day window in which to dispute a claim, best to pay with credit card via paypal and not bank account.

Lanx · « **Reply #30 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 22:52:51 »

Quote from: Oqsy;273347

I don't speak for anyone but myself here, but I find the initial post of this thread to be just as strange and inexplicable as the reviews on the website. I have some serious reservations about the intention of the original post, and believe it's from someone trying to stir up pre-orders rather than a non-review review based on theories of what the board could be. Pre-ordered two? Why on earth would you even do that? I seriously doubt anyone here, and there are some HARDCORE typists, would pre-order two boards that might not even exist. It's even more curious to show up on a new forum to tell everyone about it, and defend over and over a company that has proven to be at least lacking in communication, if not outright misleading. msiegel put it very mildly, but I won't be quite so generous. This thread has every indication of being a spam advertisement for a non-product coming directly from someone involved in the "company" who can, offhand, speak with "expertise" about the industry, almost but never quite revealing enough to indicate their true identity.

iMav, if I'm out of line, feel free to delete this post, and I apologize to the other forum members, but I feel like someone is trying to yank a hook deep into the jaws of geekhackers, and I don't like it.

I think many of us were trying too gauge and weed out a rat =D

Oqsy · « **Reply #31 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 22:59:03 »

Granted, but I'd much rather, as iMav put it earlier in the thread, "call a spade a spade".

How WEIRD would it be if I showed up on a gaming forum talking about a game that was rumored for YEARS but never actually demonstrated to exist, even in development stages, and claimed to have preordered two copies, followed immediately with a list of reasons the 'new' game would be superior to Halo?

Red flags would go up, the spam votes would be off the charts, and my account would be disabled before I could even post a follow-up.

Obvious shill is obvious.

sixty · « **Reply #32 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 23:09:20 »

Quote from: Oqsy;273352

How WEIRD would it be if I showed up on a gaming forum talking about a game that was rumored for YEARS but never actually demonstrated to exist, even in development stages, and claimed to have preordered two copies, followed immediately with a list of reasons the 'new' game would be superior to Halo?

I never actually considered thinking about that conspiracy theory until you mentioned it now. I just expected the OP to be very optimistic.

I did some research and I do think you are right now. This should be the ultimate proof:

Case closed.

Oqsy · « **Reply #33 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 23:12:28 »

haha, I love science...

msiegel · « **Reply #34 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 23:20:42 »

just to even things out...

if i had designed my own keyboard, and some company came along and manufactured one almost identical:

1) impossible! no one would manufacture my crazy-a** design

2) but seriously i'd be ecstatic and probably pre-order one

EDIT: exactly, i'd like to see Architect's design too

Lanx · « **Reply #35 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 23:32:10 »

This? Msiegel?

Quote from: Architect;272348

In frustration I designed my own keyboard and considered either hacking it or having a manufactured, but fortunately this company came along and it for me, incorporating many of my ideas and several new innovative ones, as it so happened. Disclaimer, I have zero affiliation with the company.

I'd like to see this keyboard too! I've gone through the mod section extensively and seen a lot of "i have an idea, but... can't do it" (which really isn't a mod) or at least see your initial designs and what TE added that you like so much. Is it just function keys? We have a few kinesis function mods.

Oqsy · « **Reply #36 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 23:33:00 »

msiegal: you'd preorder how many? oh right, you said "one".

msiegel · « **Reply #37 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 23:39:33 »

Quote from: Oqsy;273364

msiegal: you'd preorder how many? oh right, you said "one".

yes, just one. can't be too careful these days

j_r · « **Reply #38 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 23:45:08 »

Caveat emptor. Is this not always the case? But it would be nice to see an upstart actually produce a viable mechanical keyboard that fills a specific niche. But the website definitely "feels" off - if they do have a working model, then there is no reason why they should not be on youTube, etc. Is it often that people post on this site to anonymously market a product?

msiegel · « **Reply #39 on:** Tue, 04 January 2011, 23:47:47 »

all we need is a review unit and it will virtually market *itself*

itlnstln · « **Reply #40 on:** Wed, 05 January 2011, 06:11:54 »

Quote from: Oqsy;273352

Granted, but I'd much rather, as iMav put it earlier in the thread, "call a spade a spade".

How WEIRD would it be if I showed up on a gaming forum talking about a game that was rumored for YEARS but never actually demonstrated to exist, even in development stages, and claimed to have preordered two copies, followed immediately with a list of reasons the 'new' game would be superior to Halo?

Red flags would go up, the spam votes would be off the charts, and my account would be disabled before I could even post a follow-up.

Obvious shill is obvious.

It worked for Duke Nukem Forever and Bit Boys Oy for years.

taswyn · « **Reply #41 on:** Wed, 05 January 2011, 12:23:30 »

Quote

Obvious shill is obvious.

Personally I would say "wait and see." To be fair to Architect, while I entirely cringe at the prospect of ordering two of anything that's completely unreleased with no apparent real test units in the wild (understatement), I'm also not sure that automatically makes him a shill or astroturfer. Light searching on some keyphrases doesn't kick up anything similar, and if he WERE a shill or astroturfer, it almost definitely would, even just on basic things. You're welcome to spend some more time on it if you really care. It's fair to be skeptical, and I'm not saying to blindly trust anyone for sure, but just because someone might be treated a certain way on some forums if the posted about how they made what might be a serious blunder doesn't mean you have to sink to a similar level.

Let's just say I've been involved in gray-ish work like re-purposing information, "producing" content, and SEO work before, and I'm not going to even bother dealing with Architect's particular posts one way or the other, it's more the things like the complete fail of SEO for the main site or any similar enough posts that leave me skeptical.

If he's not a shill then he's someone who spent $400 that they may never see again without a lot of credit card company mess, did you even consider that? Hopefully for him it ends up being a real product =/ I've seen plenty of people get suckered in for (far) more over worse, and show similar enthusiasm while they waited. No one ever wants to believe they've been scammed when it's not a sure thing yet. Hopefully for everyone who pre-ordered one this turns out to be a real thing.

In the meantime I would personally say don't spend any money on it. I abhor vaporware, the "reviews" are stupidly obvious to the point where it's insulting, they wasted time on a "buzz" section and haven't sent out any review units to any actual review sites, and they seem to have spent a lot of time and energy on some marketing related things like mockup pictures but there are some severe issues with the site design and promotion. It's like it tried JUST hard enough to look professional that people won't run away when looking at the site, but there are a lot of things missing that are odd for a company that's presumably going to be relying on direct sales.

Stay away until there's independent confirmation of a shipping product that you can trust, in my opinion. The red flags involved leave me too uneasy. Wait for someone here with a solid history to get their order in and review it, I think.

Lanx · « **Reply #42 on:** Wed, 05 January 2011, 12:47:01 »

Quote from: taswyn;273526

Wait for someone here with a solid history to get their order in and review it, I think.

Lol quite honestly TE could convince and debunk all the skeptics by putting up a 2min youtube vid of a working TE in action.
It doesn't even have to be high quality, just show the TE, a computer screen, some guy saying, "hi! this is the TE see me type on it" and just have the camcorder pointed at the whole scene.

Quote from: taswyn;273526

Let's just say I've been involved in gray-ish work like re-purposing information, "producing" content, and SEO work before, and I'm not going to even bother dealing with Architect's particular posts one way or the other, it's more the things like the complete fail of SEO for the main site or any similar enough posts that leave me skeptical.

I think this is where most of us have put on our "skeptical" hats on for those of us in the industry of SEO/web adverts/press releases and such, Architect's first post seems to be a third party E-lancer paid to drum up "noise". I mean an outrageous claim of buying 2 TE vaporware sight unseen is just... "wtf are you smoking". Then posting 7x a day for two days on different various threads to "legitamize" himself and not be a 1post troll is a more advanced tactic or he could really be browsing the site looking to connect, we don't know. I will say his very diligent capitalization is what leads me to believe he is more a press troll than an honest user. For those of us in this industry, Architect's immaculate capitalization is either highly suspect or just high proficiency grammer, we won't really know.

Lanx · « **Reply #43 on:** Thu, 06 January 2011, 11:58:43 »

I guess i'll make it official, after a day of not posting and trying close his own thread (a behavior of trolls, the only ppl who have closed threads on GH are butthurt or trolls) so I dub thee, Architect Sir Troll-a-lot. Thank you fellow GH'ers for your fine work.

hoggy · « **Reply #44 on:** Thu, 06 January 2011, 12:53:41 »

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that they should have carried out at least some user testing - surely they could publish the results...

Lanx · « **Reply #45 on:** Thu, 06 January 2011, 13:44:39 »

but your in second place in that poll...

would hyped up marketing troll be best? I've already already explained how I believe a 2 day 14 post guy could almost shed the troll mantra and the easiest way is to post a lot to up your postcount past 1 to legitimize yourself.

I've been pointing out marketing trolls when i see them and just recently even PM about them. Why? like any concerned GH, i want to keep GH troll free.

Architect is either the victim of too much scrutiny or using really advanced marketing troll techniques beyond being a 1 post "omg look at TE, so awesome". We won't know now will we.

I can say as a professional internet marketer if I were to drum up news about a product weeks before release, i'd find the most relevant website, with tons of inbound links and is the authority on mechanical keyboards and start off my first post with a controversial topic or, pre-review.
I'd write it in an easy to understand fashion, use lots of bullet points when possible, because ppl love it when text is broken up and remember to subtly capitalize specific keywords and use them often such as
The Truly Ergonomic Keyboard vs. The Kinesis Advantage.
This instantly brings ppl's eyes to these words and is great once google indexes it...
http://www.google.com/search?q=truly+ergonomic+vs+kinesis&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
wow first page result, that's pretty amazing, i wonder how that happened, maybe because it was created before other pages were done and maybe because GH has a PR of 4 which is pretty high in google terms (pagerank).
Then i'd have to find many other different posts and spread myself around in the different sections of the forums so i can get rid of the 1 post troll. Once ppl see that i have 8 posts, most mods would leave me alone because trolls are often lazy and don't revisit a site, unless they are trying to capitalize on an authority website.

again these are really advanced techniques or it just happened to be this way, magically.

You might not understand what i'm talking about rip, and i of course don't expect you to, unless this is your field of expertise. Just like when we're watching how it's made or we see a plant tour, my fiance will say oh that's a blah and a blah with blah and blah, cuz she buildsplants.

Lanx · « **Reply #46 on:** Thu, 06 January 2011, 14:02:04 »

you were the only one that nominated me, i think you need at least 2 nominations to be included in that poll. I mean don't feel offended, lego's i guess is your hobby i just don't think you have to express yourself or any situation thru constant lego pics whenever the situation is possible.
whats the difference between "lol i agree with ^-------"
and posting a related lego pic?

i guess bandwidth if you don't have hi speed anything. But other than that both types add nothing.

bpiphany · « **Reply #47 on:** Thu, 06 January 2011, 14:14:38 »

I like the legos... I mean, come on, original art =) That's not something I get everyday. Well, ever since I started to hang around here I guess...

itlnstln · « **Reply #48 on:** Fri, 07 January 2011, 06:37:56 »

The shift key didn't help Welly with clear writing.

(Why am I piling on Welly so much today?)

taswyn · « **Reply #49 on:** Mon, 10 January 2011, 03:34:22 »

Quote from: Lanx;274099

but your in second place in that poll...

would hyped up marketing troll be best? I've already already explained how I believe a 2 day 14 post guy could almost shed the troll mantra and the easiest way is to post a lot to up your postcount past 1 to legitimize yourself.

I've been pointing out marketing trolls when i see them and just recently even PM about them. Why? like any concerned GH, i want to keep GH troll free.

Architect is either the victim of too much scrutiny or using really advanced marketing troll techniques beyond being a 1 post "omg look at TE, so awesome". We won't know now will we.

I can say as a professional internet marketer if I were to drum up news about a product weeks before release, i'd find the most relevant website, with tons of inbound links and is the authority on mechanical keyboards and start off my first post with a controversial topic or, pre-review.
I'd write it in an easy to understand fashion, use lots of bullet points when possible, because ppl love it when text is broken up and remember to subtly capitalize specific keywords and use them often such as
The Truly Ergonomic Keyboard vs. The Kinesis Advantage.
This instantly brings ppl's eyes to these words and is great once google indexes it...
http://www.google.com/search?q=truly+ergonomic+vs+kinesis&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
wow first page result, that's pretty amazing, i wonder how that happened, maybe because it was created before other pages were done and maybe because GH has a PR of 4 which is pretty high in google terms (pagerank).
Then i'd have to find many other different posts and spread myself around in the different sections of the forums so i can get rid of the 1 post troll. Once ppl see that i have 8 posts, most mods would leave me alone because trolls are often lazy and don't revisit a site, unless they are trying to capitalize on an authority website.

again these are really advanced techniques or it just happened to be this way, magically.

You might not understand what i'm talking about rip, and i of course don't expect you to, unless this is your field of expertise. Just like when we're watching how it's made or we see a plant tour, my fiance will say oh that's a blah and a blah with blah and blah, cuz she buildsplants.

I'm writing this out in bed using my Dell tablet, so it will probably stay fairly shortish. ^.^ (has the flu

)

I'm not discounting the possibility that you are right, but there are also a number of things that are missing or very poorly executed which would expect to see from any even halfway professional astroturfing attempt. So you're left either with someone legitimately excited about a product that they've put money down on, or a complete amateur. I don't feel it's fair to resort to the jump to conclusions mat in that circumstance.

I just don't see the point in smearing anyone over it. There are some very troubling issues surrounding both the company and the product in question. I would prefer to stay focused there and warn people away from early investing at this point. It seems to me that if you have concerns you can accomplish more in this manner than worrying over the OP. Unless you think you can prove that they are an astroturfer, l don't see the thread getting deleted, so what's the point, really?

If you *really* feel strongly about the issue, there's a *lot* more you could potentially use this thread to do, given the PR. Also, that's PR on a fairly specific search. (and have you seen the rankings on just the product and company names alone? last I looked their own site didn't even make first page =X And forget anything broader like "ergonomic keyboard" etc.)

(P.S. yay handwriting recognition while holding tablet at weird angle in bed =P .... keyboard is definitely better usually, but this scores some nice convenience points)

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