Truly Ergonomic concept board vs. the new Maltron you can buy now!

[Input Nirvana]

If you think the Truly Ergonomic has the killer layout, you're in luck because Maltron already manufactures it...



http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/maltron-dual-hand-flat-2d-keyboard.html

Dunno how Truly innovative the Truly Ergonomic person is...

[cbf123]

It looks interesting, but man is it thick!  It's 2 inches high!  How can that possibly be ergonomic given that for many people the keyboard tray is already just above their thighs with a standard thickness keyboard?

Cable is also only 1.5m, or a bit under 5 feet.

And it's $480.

[hoggy]

Cherry black, unless you can talk them into making it with a different switch.

Occasionally see the 3D boards on ebay - never seen one of these on there though.

[Input Nirvana]

I believe we already have the keyboard in our midst that far exceeds the Truly Ergonomic concept keyboard at every level.

Do 2 things to the HumbleHacker:
1- Angle the keyboard at the mid-section apart (easy to do)
2- Incorporate finger length row adjustment (easy to do)


http://www.humblehacker.com/keyboard/

This keyboard can be made to order, as a kit, customizable, etc. AND one has already been made. If you email Mr. Humble, he will actually respond.

I'm sold.

[keyboardlover]

Is the Humble Hacker mechanical?

[Input Nirvana]

Oh yea.

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6292

Oops, actually, I don't think he's released the Humble Hacker to the public yet, but has completely put the project together and has been getting better prices on the hardware.

[keyboardlover]

Wow...I'm interested myself and I don't even like ALPs!

[Jim66]

Wow...I'm interested myself and I don't even like ALPs!

I love ALPs and the layout. These aren't going to be cheap though...

[Keymonger]

I believe we already have the keyboard in our midst that far exceeds the Truly Ergonomic concept keyboard at every level.

Do 2 things to the HumbleHacker:
1- Angle the keyboard at the mid-section apart (easy to do)
2- Incorporate finger length row adjustment (easy to do)


http://www.humblehacker.com/keyboard/

This keyboard can be made to order, as a kit, customizable, etc. AND one has already been made. If you email Mr. Humble, he will actually respond.

I'm sold.

lol dvorak

[Input Nirvana]

Yea, it has about 4 embedded layers, Dvorak is there, and the keys are the same so they can be switched for non-touch typists.

[noctua]

Cool, this keyboard has the wrist rest already included, similar to an notebook
but even with better mechanical keys, cherry black.. and it exists!

[Input Nirvana]

I want the Noctuaboard

[Findecanor]

I find that flat Maltron to be a bit weird because there is 1/2 key staggering in-between each finger. I find that to be a bit much.

I don't know how old that flat, Maltron layout is, but... how about the japanese M System keyboard, that you could buy in 1983?

[noctua]

Good question, what is better hmm.. no one here has such an experience :-(
The japanese one (great snap) with the smaller staggering looks more discreet,
but the middle-block looks horrible.. i think both has the same height.. Don't
forget Stephen is an niftier old stager with many ergonomic experience..

[Input Nirvana]

I find that flat Maltron to be a bit weird because there is 1/2 key staggering in-between each finger. I find that to be a bit much.

I don't know how old that flat, Maltron layout is, but... how about the japanese M System keyboard, that you could buy in 1983?

Interesting point about the degree of staggering...I'm not sure if there is a "right answer" since we are all built a little different. Laying my hands out on a standard keyboard, the 1/2 key seems right on, but obviously that's just an estimation. No doubt there should be SOME staggering...probably too little is better that too much?

I believe the Maltron 2D is a new product line for them.

[.XL]

That maltron is one of the ugliest keyboards I have ever seen. I would never waste $500 on that thing...ew.

That Humblehacker is pretty awesome, though!

[Input Nirvana]

You purchase the Maltron because you NEED to, plus I think it's paid for by insurance as a medical need. You can tell by the putty grey color. lol

You're right, that Humble Hacker is WAY awesome...

[noctua]

The issue here is to compare ergonomic concept's, not an cosmetic issue - the TE is for me
ugly too, one is black and surreal, the other is gray and may even comfortabler to type..

Comfortable - Painless - Easier.. you know..

[Input Nirvana]

N-o-c-t-u-a-b-o-a-r-d !!!!! :biggrin:

[hoggy]

I believe the Maltron 2D is a new product line for them.

I think they just changed the name of the board.  It used to be the Maltron Ergonomic Flat.  According to archive.org it was launched in 2004.

So much for TE market research....

[Forsaken]

The thickness of that maltron is ridiculous for a 2D layout haha. You could build an entire PC inside that thing!

[noctua]

Base plate + PCB + Switch + Keycap + Wrist rest = height of 2D Maltron keyboard, where is the problem?
Many typist's can type faster on an notebook like keyboard.. haha ;-)

[cbf123]

Base plate + PCB + Switch + Keycap + Wrist rest = height of 2D Maltron keyboard, where is the problem?

The problem is that for proper ergonomics for most people the keyboard should be as thin as possible.  Some people put the keyboard directly on their thighs to avoid the thickness of a keyboard tray.

The Maltron is way thicker than a Topre, for instance (55m vs 38mm).  The Leopold is 33mm, and the Kinesis Freestyle is only 30mm:

[Forsaken]

Base plate + PCB + Switch + Keycap + Wrist rest = height of 2D Maltron keyboard, where is the problem?
Many typist's can type faster on an notebook like keyboard.. haha ;-)

Last I checked, most 2D mechanical boards out there weren't even close to 2 inches thick. You don't think two inches is a bit fat? My 3D Kinesis Advantage is barely thicker than that.

*shrugs*

[hoggy]

If you're shelling out that money for a maltron, chances are you'll be looking at your entire setup (at your employers/insurers expense?) A foot rest or a even a keyboard tray might already be on the shopping list.

The height would pretty much rule out a separate wrist rest, which a lot of users will use when typing, not just for resting.  I hired a 3d maltron a while back, I remember that it encourages you to not rest your wrists when typing.

[noctua]

.. ok an thicker one, like an ergonomic mechanical laptop - but even without an builtin computer.. ;-)
currently i build my second prototype, that is based on an Maltron 3D keyboard shell,
but not the usual one..

[Proword]

I've used a Maltron 3D dual hand since 1986.  As a court reporter, I'm transcribing audio for hours at a stretch at about 150-180 wpm, and it's so easy.  

Following some discussions with a different board, I made this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYJtF1I3PRs

which shows the Maltron being used for stenotype work.

As for the cost, I bought my first Maltron in 1986, and even though I had to have it converted from Apple II to IBM clone (XT?) I'm still using it, and nothing's ever broken.  If you amortise the original cost over 25 years, I doubt whether you could even buy a keyboard for that small amount every year, and still expect it to keep working once it was out of its packing.

:happy:

Joe

[Proword]

The problem is that for proper ergonomics for most people the keyboard should be as thin as possible.  Some people put the keyboard directly on their thighs to avoid the thickness of a keyboard tray.

The Maltron is way thicker than a Topre, for instance (55m vs 38mm).  The Leopold is 33mm, and the Kinesis Freestyle is only 30mm:

Show Image

But you have to factor in that the Maltron is a 3D keyboard and that at its thinnest (at the side) it's also about 30 mm thick, and that that 3D curvature is crucial for its ergonomic profile.




Joe

[Proword]

I hired a 3d maltron a while back, I remember that it encourages you to not rest your wrists when typing.

But you'll also see that the Maltron has a designed resting platform so the user rests their wrists (or more properly base of the palms) during "thinking time".  

However, I don't necessarily subscribe to the "not resting during typing" school and have actually glued high density foam (camping mat) onto the keyboard so I rest my hands pretty much the whole time.  But I can see the value of not resting while typing when using the QWERTY layout, due to the amount of gross hand and arm movement, even using a Maltron keyboard.

These two youtube videos demonstrate the differences.

This shows the minimal hand movement using the Malt layout:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYJtF1I3PRs

while this shows the same keyboard, but using the QWERTY layout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4H931A3BDE&feature=related

Joe

[Forsaken]

I certainly wasn't saying that the 3D maltron was silly thick, I was saying that the one the OP refers to, which is a 2D maltron is silly thick. It's as thick as the 3D maltron, but isn't 3D.

[hoggy]

Proword, You've certainly got your money's worth, those thumb keys have seen some use!

I think you should treat your keyboard to a new set of keycaps.  I'm sure Maltron can help you out there.

[Findecanor]

I certainly wasn't saying that the 3D maltron was silly thick, I was saying that the one the OP refers to, which is a 2D maltron is silly thick. It's as thick as the 3D maltron, but isn't 3D.

I am guessing that the controller is under the numeric keypad in the middle, where the indicator lights also are.
Note that all keys are sunken into the frame also. It may not have to be so thick if you weren't supposed to rest your wrists on it and have them higher than the keys.
Remove at least 1/2" before comparing it to any other board with Cherry switches.

[Proword]

Proword, You've certainly got your money's worth, those thumb keys have seen some use!

I think you should treat your keyboard to a new set of keycaps.  I'm sure Maltron can help you out there.

They have indeed seen some use.:biggrin:  But I bought the keyboard second hand some years ago, and it only has the single character keycaps, even though it's got the Maltron/QWERTY switch.  (It was set up for QWERTY).  For myself I buy dual engraved keycaps.  They're a bit more expensive but they seem to last longer.  Anyway, whenever the letter wears off I just use black texta then a couple of layers of clear nail varnish.  Lasts for months.:lol:

What you CAN'T see is the wear on the case right between the space bar and the exclamation mark, which is the expansion execute key for my shorthand.  If you watch my right thumb I drag it over the curve between the two keys.  I've quite literally worn the anti-glare surface off in a small area.  

Better to wear out than rust away.:wink:

Joe

[Multiple]

Hi Proword,

What's your experience typing on black cherry switches, as used by Maltron on this keyboard?

This is something I worry about, as I find them to be rather stiff. Not sure if I could get used to it.

Also, is there any difference in texture and feel between dual engraved and standard maltron keycaps?

[Proword]

Hi Proword,

What's your experience typing on black cherry switches, as used by Maltron on this keyboard?

This is something I worry about, as I find them to be rather stiff. Not sure if I could get used to it.

Also, is there any difference in texture and feel between dual engraved and standard maltron keycaps?

I've never felt any difference in the actual switches, (I've got 4 dual hand Maltrons), it's only the layouts are different (eg tab key on the left on one keyboard, on the right on another, the Function keys on the top of the keyboard versus in the "well" - all pretty minor to me.)

As for the dual engraved keycaps, again, if I was blindfolded and had all my keyboards laid out before me, I could possibly tell one from another by touch alone, but I'd have to work at it pretty hard.  I have no difficulties swapping from one to another.

Joe

[Input Nirvana]

Proword:

Have you ever used a Kinesis Contoured? If so, how does it compare to the Maltron? That's something I would like to know.

[Proword]

Proword:

Have you ever used a Kinesis Contoured? If so, how does it compare to the Maltron? That's something I would like to know.

Sorry, can't help you on that one.  I'd had my Maltron for some years (1986) before Kinesis even came on the market, so I had no reason to consider going anywhere else.

Joe

[sordna]

Proword:

Have you ever used a Kinesis Contoured? If so, how does it compare to the Maltron? That's something I would like to know.

If it's any help, I am a Kinesis contoured user since 2004. I also tried a Maltron (their more common 3D model) for a few days. What I remember is that the Maltron has a better hand positioning for me, my hands felt more relaxed. The Maltron is more tented than the Kinesis by about 10 degrees, providing better relief from hand pronation. The Kinesis feels almost flat, which is why some people resort to this:


Apart from that, I like the Kinesis better in most respects, it is programmable and has better layout of the keys in my opinion. I hated the arrow key placement in the Maltron for example. Also the Maltron emited multiple keycodes for some keypresses so you couldn't program it even in software. The electronics behaved weird, I dug up some old email I wrote about it; if I hit shift and a number, for instance shift 5 to get the left parens (horrible layout in the first place), and I lifted the shift
before I released the number, I saw the keyboard repeating 999999999 till I hit another key. And shift 2 for the carret (yuk) produced 6 once you released the shift.

Hey Proword, do your maltrons behave in that weird way too?

I really hated this weird implementation of certain symbols, however I did like the dedicated * and _ keys that did not need shift at all, and also liked having real function keys instead of the Kinesis' rubbery ones.

I'm sure you are aware of the Maltron having linear switches (cherry MX black) instead of the Kinesis tactile browns, however Kinesis is going to produce the Advantage LF (linear feel) with cherry MX reds , so that pretty much seals it for me in favor of the Kinesis ... now if I could tent it a little more it would be perfect... maybe I'll cut up my old Contoured Classic to experiment after I receive the new Advantage LF :-)

[Proword]

for instance shift 5 to get the left parens (horrible layout in the first place), and I lifted the shift
before I released the number, I saw the keyboard repeating 999999999 till I hit another key. And shift 2 for the carret (yuk) produced 6 once you released the shift.

Hey Proword, do your maltrons behave in that weird way too?

Don't recall anything like that*.  However at least one of my keyboards sometimes sends me to the top of my current page if I type a word ending in "ife" (eg life, wife, fife etc) and I don't release the "f" before I hit the "e".  But not at all times.  I can't reproduce it on demand.

If you find the Maltron more "comfortable" but don't like the layout, have you considered approaching Maltron to do a "one off" custom for you?  Given that their keyboards are hand made, there shouldn't be any extra work involved, and on the front page of their website they say:

And don't forget... If you cannot find the exact specification of keyboard that you are looking for, we may be able to supply it as a special order. Please contact us!

http://www.maltron.com/

Joe

*I had a vaguely similar situation many years ago, but it turned out there was a rather large crumb or something stuck under one of the keys.:lol:

Joe

[sordna]

The above is the layout of the Maltron I tried... possibly they have changed it now to have the parens on 9/0 instead of 5/6. If you have a Maltron with the parens on 5/6 try hitting shift 5 then release shift while keeping 5 pressed. I bet you'll see number 9 repeated!

Seems like they have improved the layout nowadays, these dvorak ones look good, and the symbols moved to more proper places:
http://www.maltron.com/originalsite/maltron-press.html

But anyway, a custom-ordered Maltron would be nice, however even their standard issue keyboards are outrageously expensive (more than double the price of the Kinesis) plus I find the cherry black switches a bit too stiff.

[Proword]

Here are two of the four Maltrons.

This one



is my original 1986 one.

Although it's hard to see, this one has dual engraved keycaps (Maltron in Black, QWERTY in yellow.)

It was initially used on an Apple II+ so lacked the Function keys until I sent it back to the UK for conversion to IBM compatible, when they were added.

This one is the second-hand one I bought about 8/9 years ago.




Neither of them gives the error which you mention, but they are quite different to the one in your post, particularly with the distribution of keys such as the Maltron/QWERTY switch, Print screen, Scroll lock, etc, which all appear around the numeric keypad on yours.

These two are set up for Maltron operation because they have the empty space at the bottom of the "ring finger" columns.

I suppose "expensive" is a relative term.  The black one is 25 years old and still goes like it did the first day.  Never a problem.

I think when you get a "custom" Maltron, you may be able to specify which keyswitches you want used.

Joe

[appie747]

I think the Truly Ergonomic one certainly LOOKS better.

My son took one look and agreed with me. He thought the Maltron was especially fugly.

Show Image

I asked my son also (9 years old):
3. Maltron
2. Kinesis contoured
1. TE
I agree.

[noctua]

I asked my son too - he prefer my protoype that is Maltron 3D based much much more over the TE and the Kinesis one.. Gotcha!

[Input Nirvana]

I look forward to seeing and reading the specs on the Notua-board...

[Architect]

Hmm, those Maltron layouts look pretty sweet. I like the dual {} and [] under each hand (I used those a LOT as a software engineer). I've never seen one first hand, just what pics online which had all sorts of weird keys (with diagonal arrows and such) that I couldn't figure out what they were for.

I'd be tempted to buy one just to see, but the reports of weird behavior scare me as I'm struggling with that already with Kinesis. I have it on a USB hub with switch so I can flip it and reboot the keyboard every time it wakes from sleep. OS X sends a different USB wakeup from Windows and the Kinesis behaves differently (it freaks out).

A problem with these older designs is that, naturally, they don't update the chipsets.

[Proword]

Hmm, those Maltron layouts look pretty sweet. I like the dual {} and [] under each hand (I used those a LOT as a software engineer). I've never seen one first hand, just what pics online which had all sorts of weird keys (with diagonal arrows and such) that I couldn't figure out what they were for.

I'd be tempted to buy one just to see, but the reports of weird behavior scare me as I'm struggling with that already with Kinesis. I have it on a USB hub with switch so I can flip it and reboot the keyboard every time it wakes from sleep. OS X sends a different USB wakeup from Windows and the Kinesis behaves differently (it freaks out).

A problem with these older designs is that, naturally, they don't update the chipsets.

I've used four different Maltrons, on probably 10-12 different computers, without any problems.  




This keyboard (1986) was first used on an Apple II+.  I sent it back to the factory in the UK to have the internals converted to make it go with IBM compatible.  It's still going today, running in Windows 7.  Maltron are pretty happy to upgrade an old keyboard, in my experience.

Joe

[sordna]

How much does Maltron charge to work on a keyboard? Also, I wonder what the logistics are, especially for people that are not in Europe...

[Proword]

How much does Maltron charge to work on a keyboard? Also, I wonder what the logistics are, especially for people that are not in Europe...

I had the conversion done from Apple II+ to IBM in the late '80s, so I wouldn't be able to help you on costs.  

I live in Perth, Western Australia (the remotest capital city in the world) and it took me about 6-7 weeks to get two single hand keyboards from the UK, from the time I placed my order, until they arrived.  (this was pretty close to Xmas time, so transport would have been pretty well booked out.)  The cost of postage is fairly reasonable, and it probably goes by air freight.

Just to digress, I've just come across a PROGRAMMERS Maltron, something I've never heard of.  Model L89P.



Perhaps it might be worth starting a thread to see if anybody else knows anything about it.

It is, obviously, in QWERTY layout, but I think it's switchable to Malt.

This shows diagonal arrows, which I can only assume are navigation keys, perhaps to the beginning of line above, end of line etc.

The person to contact at Maltron is Martin at "Maltron Sales"


Joe

[Architect]

My situation is I do everything on a Mac - even Windows and Linux programming which are running under VMWare. OS X is the only system where I can run all major operating systems under the hood, having to manage computers for all those systems would drive me batty. The problem is that, as is often the case, what works for PC's doesn't work so well for modern Macs. As I mentioned Windows will kick the Kinesis in the butt on wake from sleep. It appears to do a full USB reset (the keyboard makes the same sound as when you plug it in.) On the Mac, no such sound, obviously a different reset sequence, and the keyboard comes up schizophrenic.

Anyhow that programmers keyboard looks intriguing, but its still geared for the PC. On the Mac I need symmetric Command, Option and Control modifier keys, no "Windows Start Menu" key, etc.

Maybe I'll kick him an email to see what they've got, but really, assuming TE comes through it should be as close to perfect as I want.

[Proword]

Maltron does boards for the Mac, so presumably you could have a Mac programmers.  Their web page

http://www.maltron.com/

says:

And don't forget... If you cannot find the exact specification of keyboard that you are looking for, we may be able to supply it as a special order. Please contact us

So that looks pretty good.

Joe

[sordna]

As I mentioned Windows will kick the Kinesis in the butt on wake from sleep. It appears to do a full USB reset (the keyboard makes the same sound as when you plug it in.) On the Mac, no such sound, obviously a different reset sequence, and the keyboard comes up schizophrenic.

Hmm, I've noticed such an issue on my USB Kinesis Advantage, it sometimes does that "click" sound even by itself (especially if I plug something else into the computer) and (rarely) freezes in which case I need to unplug it and plug it back in.
Have you contacted Kinesis about this? If so, what did they say?

[Architect]

Hmm, I've noticed such an issue on my USB Kinesis Advantage, it sometimes does that "click" sound even by itself (especially if I plug something else into the computer) and (rarely) freezes in which case I need to unplug it and plug it back in.
Have you contacted Kinesis about this? If so, what did they say?

Even though apparently they have multiple reports of said problems, they seem to blame it on Apple, say they can't reproduce and ultimately won't do anything about it. The only fix is to plug/replug the keyboard every time after waking from sleep, which happens constantly during the day. A little annoying, after 15 years I've had it with Kinesis.

Joe - that's fine thanks, but I'll wait for the TE. It's a fraction of the price and has exactly what I want. TBD.

[sordna]

Well, having my palms flat (pronation) bothers my hands, so the TE is not for me. I would certainly be interested if the TE had separated / freely moving halves, that I could place in a tented position. Thus, I'll wait for the Kinesis Advantage with the red cherries, I bet it will be available BEFORE the TE is.

[kps]

I use a Kinesis contoured on OS X and have no problems; the difference, I suspect, is that I have a KVM switch in between.

[Input Nirvana]

Even though apparently they have multiple reports of said problems, they seem to blame it on Apple, say they can't reproduce and ultimately won't do anything about it. The only fix is to plug/replug the keyboard every time after waking from sleep, which happens constantly during the day. A little annoying, after 15 years I've had it with Kinesis.

Joe - that's fine thanks, but I'll wait for the TE. It's a fraction of the price and has exactly what I want. TBD.

I plug various Kinesis Contoured boards (ps/2, USB) into several Macs (Intel chip models) with Tiger/Snow Leopard, either directly or through a USB hub, and use VMware for Windows and never have those issues. I imagine if Kinesis can't reproduce it, they can't evaluate it. It sounds like a ****ty problem that I couldn't tolerate.

One the TE, as I look at the key layout, where is a "command/windows" key? Is it in the upper row?

[Architect]

I plug various Kinesis Contoured boards (ps/2, USB) into several Macs (Intel chip models) with Tiger/Snow Leopard, either directly or through a USB hub, and use VMware for Windows and never have those issues. I imagine if Kinesis can't reproduce it, they can't evaluate it. It sounds like a ****ty problem that I couldn't tolerate.

One the TE, as I look at the key layout, where is a "command/windows" key? Is it in the upper row?

 
There are a lot of things they could do that they didn't. System logs, USB probe tool logging, bus probing, etc, never mind opening a ticket with Apple. If I was working for the company you can be sure I'd have it solved.

At any rate you can apparently map them anywhere. I posted my future mapping on one of these threads, I'm putting the Command/Option/Control on the two lower corners (Option 109 blank layout)

[Forsaken]

That programmers maltron is strange. Anyone else notice the "K42" key? What in the world?

And there are two blank keys, one on each far side.

[Proword]

"K42"?  Wasn't the answer to the question of "Life, The Universe and Everything"  in the "Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" 42?  Maybe this keyboard is "Deep Thought" in disguise.

Joe

[Proword]

Just did a Google on "K42 program".  

Came up with this.
http://www.research.ibm.com/K42/papers/open-src.pdf

An open source Linux compatible O/S kernel!!

Joe