Author Topic: Vintage black?  (Read 8132 times)

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Offline bocahgundul

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Vintage black?
« on: Thu, 11 February 2016, 20:39:33 »

Offline bocahgundul

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 11 February 2016, 21:00:11 »
Anyone? Been searching fo vintage black all day long

Offline Corsa1r

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 11 February 2016, 21:33:42 »
I've been looking around, too!  Not that I would buy one right now, but trying to classify what is what on ebay (since I'm a super mech-noob).  Wish I knew, too.
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Offline SpAmRaY

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 11 February 2016, 21:48:31 »
The best anyone can tell you is maybe or maybe they'll just be old mx blacks.

There have been people who bought dozens of those wyse boards to desolder and they had a mix of vintage and old switches.

Offline bocahgundul

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 11 February 2016, 22:02:18 »
The best anyone can tell you is maybe or maybe they'll just be old mx blacks.

There have been people who bought dozens of those wyse boards to desolder and they had a mix of vintage and old switches.
awww too bad I want some vintafe blacks!

Offline axtran

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 00:26:06 »
Even if it does, that's a little pricy just for a harvest board :)
MX Silent > MX Vintage Black > Everything Else

Offline nubbinator

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 00:31:37 »
Vintage Black = placebo


Just buy normal blacks, lube, and be done with it.  The vintage black premium a ton of people pay is not worth it.  A **** ton of placebo effect and confirmation bias goes on with stuff like that.

Offline ebacho

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 00:40:34 »
Vintage Black = placebo


Just buy normal blacks, lube, and be done with it.  The vintage black premium a ton of people pay is not worth it.  A **** ton of placebo effect and confirmation bias goes on with stuff like that.

This; even if there is a difference, the lube basically evens that out.  And believe me, you're gonna want to lube and clean these old switches, they feel scratchy as hell.

Offline OTD

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 01:24:09 »
Vintage Black = placebo


Just buy normal blacks, lube, and be done with it.  The vintage black premium a ton of people pay is not worth it.  A **** ton of placebo effect and confirmation bias goes on with stuff like that.

Is it the same with nixdorf?

Offline nubbinator

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 01:26:32 »
Never tried Nixdork, but I can't imagine it being that much different.  If it is, I have some snake oil to sell you.

Offline OTD

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #10 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 01:30:23 »
Never tried Nixdork, but I can't imagine it being that much different.  If it is, I have some snake oil to sell you.
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Offline azhdar

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #11 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 01:32:58 »
nowadays you got gaterons, just lubed them if you want to improve them, but that's like a 10-20% improvment in term of smoothness, I don't bother lubing them anymore.
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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #12 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 01:35:19 »
Gateron placebo.

Offline azhdar

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 01:36:14 »
gateron aren't placebo, they trully are better then modern mx blacks.
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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #14 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 01:37:13 »
Nope.  Gateron legit placebo.  Tried side by side blind, Gateron straight placebo, just lighter spring.

Offline azhdar

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #15 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 01:40:01 »
Nope.  Gateron legit placebo.  Tried side by side blind, Gateron straight placebo, just lighter spring.

lol funny you say that since spring is the thing I dislike the most in Gat.blacks, the force curve is not so nice.
seriously though you felt no difference between a 2010+ board with mx blacks and gat blacks?
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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #16 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 01:42:44 »
Tried nice lubed blacks and linear gaterons.  No difference aside from sprint weight.

Offline axtran

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #17 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 01:45:44 »
Gateron Linear completely less scratchy for me than all of my MX Black switches that aren't Vintage. Vintage isn't a placebo for me but it definitely is more work than it is worth. Gateron all the way, especially if you can get your hands on Linear Zealio switches. Just wonderful.
MX Silent > MX Vintage Black > Everything Else

Offline nubbinator

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 01:49:53 »
#placebocirclejerk

Offline OTD

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 01:50:43 »
zealios also placebo?

Offline demik

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #20 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 01:51:34 »
#placebocirclejerk

I've been saying this FOREVER.
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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 01:54:45 »
#placebocirclejerk

I've been saying this FOREVER.

As have I.  The only "vintage" **** worth a damn is "vintage" blues because they're broken in and less shrill.  That's likely due to wear and tear though.  Everything else is placebo circlejerking.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 03:37:26 »
Nubs, come up to the bay area sometime. I’m happy to demonstrate the difference with a side-by-side comparison.

It’s night-and-day obvious to everyone who pays attention to the switch feel.

But if your fingers have no nerves left, you can also just take a pair of loose switches and hold them up to your ear. Nobody who isn’t 100% deaf will fail to notice the difference, even if they aren’t listening for it. One sounds like two pieces of paper sliding against each other. The other sounds like sandpaper rubbing across a chalkboard.

If you couldn’t tell the difference, you either had something really wonky going on with the samples you were trying (e.g. the “vintage” switches were stored on a table in someone’s dusty attic for 30 years and are totally filled with grit, or the “new” switches were already carefully lubed by a geekhacker), or you have some kind of severe disability, or you are misremembering your experience.

Personally I don’t like MX black switches – I think they’re too stiff and even the “vintage” ones are not as smooth as I would like for a linear switch, and I don’t much like linear switches in general – but I just bought a nearly mint AT-layout luggable keyboard on ebay for about $15 shipped, because I couldn’t tell from the outside what the switches would be (I was hoping for Alps). This makes 2 nearly mint mid-1980s MX black boards in my closet. They have very obviously different switch feel than recent MX black boards.
« Last Edit: Fri, 12 February 2016, 04:08:59 by jacobolus »

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 03:48:54 »
Here’s about the earliest MX board anyone is likely to find:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79173.0

$36 isn’t an amazing price for just switches, and this thing might be more interesting to keep as a relic than strip for parts, but I’m not at all motivated to scour ebay for cheaper old MX keyboards.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331767923245

« Last Edit: Fri, 12 February 2016, 03:50:59 by jacobolus »

Offline munch

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 03:57:43 »
lubed up, the difference is smaller, but stock Gateron + stock MX black, difference is noticeable. I have done testing side by side with the exact same spring, back and forth a few times.
I'd say you should try to get some samples and see if you find it worth it, before committing to a buy.
I preferred the Gaterons to the Vintage blacks that I tried, and new MX black the least.

Offline bocahgundul

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 08:26:45 »
Wait what placeabo effect Really? I got an old blacks which smoother than the modern ones

Offline bocahgundul

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 08:31:29 »
Here’s about the earliest MX board anyone is likely to find:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79173.0

$36 isn’t an amazing price for just switches, and this thing might be more interesting to keep as a relic than strip for parts, but I’m not at all motivated to scour ebay for cheaper old MX keyboards.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331767923245
Show Image

Now thats a really old one! I'm gonna snatch that one

Offline Dernubenfrieken

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 08:56:53 »
Nope.  Gateron legit placebo.  Tried side by side blind, Gateron straight placebo, just lighter spring.

You ever think that you're the one experiencing the placebo, expecting them to feel the same?
    

Offline whiskytango

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #28 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 09:06:39 »
http://m.ebay.com/itm/Wyse-Terminal-ANSI-Mechanical-Keyboard-WY85-Gate-Array-840366-01-/171759048792?nav=SEARCH

Been trying to find vintage mx black does this board uses vintage black?

What spamray said, it depends. I have personally desoldered at probably about 75 WYSE boards for harvesting switches, so I have seen thousands and thousands of these things. I think it also depends on what you are calling "vintage". I believe most people consider the ones with the larger cherry logo to be "vintage". On the ones I have seen, There were always variations with the logos on the switches, even on the same board. Some had a larger cherry logo on the switch top, some had a smaller one. Some had a beveled edge on the switch top cutout, some did not.

But I will say this. I never pulled a single switch from a WYSE board that looks exactly like the black switches I found on a modern cherry board. I think pretty much any WYSE board that has MX blacks is going to be from the 90s, maybe late 80s or early 2000s. I am off the personal opinion that any of those older mx blacks are different that modern ones, regardless of the logo on the switch top. The switch top is, after all, only one piece of the switch. A large logo "vintage" switch top does not guarantee the rest of the switch is vintage. Especially when you consider that you can find different looking switches on the same board, suggesting they were produced at least somewhat contemporaneously. So if you want to call the older switches "vintage" because they have different characteristics from modern production blacks, then I think that's legit because there are physical differences, at least with appearance.

As far as whether they FEEL different, I leave that up to the user to decide. I don't even have a board with blacks right now since I am a mx blue/green/ghetto green guy. But one thing that I personally believe contributes to a different feel is the springs. I think the older springs are ever-so-slightly lighter. I have no empirical data on this, but I have used both old and new MX black springs to put into mx blues to make ghetto greens. Yesterday I was typing on a board that used the modern production springs. Right now I am typing on a board that used the older springs. In my admittedly subjective opinion, I feel a difference. YMMV

Do I think there is a difference? Yes. Do I think it is worth a large premium? No, not really. Is there at least some placebo / confirmation bias going on? Probably. Is it cool to reuse old stuff in a meaningful way? I think so.
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Offline Geroximo

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 10:12:05 »
What whiskytango said.
I'm from Germany and get my hands on many different vintage Cherry boards.
Vintage blacks are not a placebo. The springs are different in older boards. And the springs in even older boards are again different.
You can feel it. The switches are different than modern switches.

Vintage Blacks are 100% not a placebo, but they are also not as good as some people claim them to be. It's like topre ... people just love to hype stuff.

Are vintage Blacks smoother? Yes.
Is it worth the extra money? Probably not.

Offline davkol

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 10:33:33 »
Springs? Yeah, those are a bit different, but I prefer my vintage blacks with Korean springs anyway.

Offline OTD

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 10:47:44 »
You have to purchase multiple wyse boards to make sure that you can get enough vintage large logo black MX. I know a person who used a total of 10 donor boards just to get a full tkl of large logo vintages.

Offline whiskytango

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #32 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 11:24:12 »
You have to purchase multiple wyse boards to make sure that you can get enough vintage large logo black MX. I know a person who used a total of 10 donor boards just to get a full tkl of large logo vintages.

it's luck of the draw. I have seen whole boards of large logo and I have seen boards with zero large logo. And everything in between.
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Offline skcheng

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #33 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 11:28:23 »
Dolly V2 disagrees with ALL of you.   Nixdorf Switches rule!!   And just cuz they're German ...... they're obviously constructed better   :p :p

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Offline Steezus

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #34 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 11:31:59 »
Vintage Black = placebo


Just buy normal blacks, lube, and be done with it.  The vintage black premium a ton of people pay is not worth it.  A **** ton of placebo effect and confirmation bias goes on with stuff like that.

I have to disagree. I have NiB 1988 Vintage Black, Gateron Black, and new Black all to test with. There is even a significant difference in the sound of scratchiness. Obviously "vintage" is a rather vague term. The switch feel can very board to board and even on the same board it can very switch to switch depending on how much use each switch had. Luckily for me the board I got my blacks from was a NiB so they all feel the same.

With the Vintage blacks that I have then I would personally rate it by Vintage > Gateron > New. All are unlubed. I do have nixdorfs coming in the mail as well to try and see if they are any better.

Obviously the difference is not drastic, it may be minimal enough that most people would be just fine settling with new blacks but if you want to get that extra 10-15% smoothness then finding the right vintage ones are the way to go in my personal opinion.
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Offline OTD

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 11:34:21 »
Yes it is luck of the draw.

Offline nubbinator

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #36 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 13:48:07 »
I've had scratchy vintage and old Blacks, I've had smooth vintage and old Blacks.  I've also had scratchy new Blacks and smooth new Blacks.  It's not something where every old one feels better than every new one.  I've played with hundreds if not thousands of both and it's not a "night and day" difference like some people claim.  You will find good and bad from both. 

I will agree that the spring feels a little lighter on the older Blacks, but who knows if that's because the spring was lighter when it was made, a change in material, due to how the spring aged, use, or something else.  That slightly lighter spring is nicer feeling, but I still disagree that "vintage" or old switches are by and large better than modern Blacks.

In the end, just get some Krytox or molybdenum disulfide and lube the switches and be done with fretting over whether or not they're vintage and paying a vintage premium just so you have to sit and sort out the "good" and "bad" vintage switches.

Offline alienman82

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #37 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 13:53:31 »
removed.
« Last Edit: Thu, 01 March 2018, 16:12:37 by alienman82 »

Offline romevi

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #38 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 14:02:32 »
What are Nixdorfs? Rebranded Cherrys? I tried Googling some time ago but never found any concrete info.

Offline alienman82

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #39 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 14:07:06 »
removed.
« Last Edit: Thu, 01 March 2018, 16:12:35 by alienman82 »

Offline skcheng

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #40 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 14:25:30 »
I definitely prefer carefully lubed vintage MX switches.   Blue, Black, Clear etc....   If you look at them closely under a microscope you'll see some differences.   Better construction, better tolerances than the newer switches.   Is it worth the aggravation or cost??   To me it is?   It's all relative??   I mean ... is any keyboard worth a zillion dollars??   Is an OTD board THAT much better than a Filco or a Das??   Depends??   People spend their hard earned dollars and if they're happy it's worth the cost.   

That said, having the right spring weight, and clearfully lubing the switches and picking out the "less" scratchy switches is more important than simply comparing old and new.   My 2c for the 1c it's worth   ;D

Offline alienman82

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #41 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 14:43:12 »
removed.
« Last Edit: Thu, 01 March 2018, 16:12:32 by alienman82 »

Offline bocahgundul

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #42 on: Fri, 12 February 2016, 16:05:52 »
Well I snatched the really old board that jacobolous post so we'll see

Offline bocahgundul

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #43 on: Sun, 21 February 2016, 00:18:30 »
Vintage Black = placebo


Just buy normal blacks, lube, and be done with it.  The vintage black premium a ton of people pay is not worth it.  A **** ton of placebo effect and confirmation bias goes on with stuff like that.

I have to disagree. I have NiB 1988 Vintage Black, Gateron Black, and new Black all to test with. There is even a significant difference in the sound of scratchiness. Obviously "vintage" is a rather vague term. The switch feel can very board to board and even on the same board it can very switch to switch depending on how much use each switch had. Luckily for me the board I got my blacks from was a NiB so they all feel the same.

With the Vintage blacks that I have then I would personally rate it by Vintage > Gateron > New. All are unlubed. I do have nixdorfs coming in the mail as well to try and see if they are any better.

Obviously the difference is not drastic, it may be minimal enough that most people would be just fine settling with new blacks but if you want to get that extra 10-15% smoothness then finding the right vintage ones are the way to go in my personal opinion.
btw how much did you pay for your NIB vintage blacks?

Offline axtran

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Re: Vintage black?
« Reply #44 on: Sun, 21 February 2016, 01:09:39 »
I'd like a NiB donor board. All of mine have been a pain to source!
MX Silent > MX Vintage Black > Everything Else