ABS, Rebranded Filco?

[decklin]

Firstly, I don't think I have posted before, so, hello. Been lurking for a while.

I just randomly came across this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823224001

Never heard of ABS, but... check out the images. Apart from the different logo, looks exactly like a Majestouch. A review says it has black Alps switches, though, which seems strange (I thought Filco used Cherry switches?). The product website, though, seems to bear this out:

http://www.abs.com/app/Keyboard_M1_details.asp

"Mechanical Keyswitch Diagram". Sure does look like a black Alps.

Anyone tried it? At only $65 (and from Newegg who'll have it there tomorrow :-)), I'd consider buying one just on the chance that it's really as good as it sounds (I've never used black Alps switches, but they are the tactile kind if I understand correctly). I'd love to hear a report if someone does rush out and order it right now.

[iMav]

Good find!  Standard layout with black Alps switches.  
Black Alps switches are decent.  There are a couple of geekhackers here that really love them.

I'd definitely love to see someone pick one of these up and do a proper review.

[Ulysses31]

Both of these are most likely re-badged Costar OEM keyboards.
http://www.costar.com.tw/products01/info.php?p_id=45&p_sid=32

[zwmalone]

I saw this earlier today as well.  It seems to be the same thing as this, but with different switch color.  It would be nice to be able to pick it up (even if it is rebranded) without having to be shipped internationally.

[zwmalone]

Both of these are most likely re-badged Costar OEM keyboards.
http://www.costar.com.tw/products01/info.php?p_id=45&p_sid=32

If they manufacture the keyboards, why do they have the Das keyboard in their product inventory?

[Ulysses31]

They're also an ODM so it's entirely plausible that they manufacture that keyboard for DAS.

[zwmalone]

sorry to derail the thread but is this a good deal?

[wellington1869]

sorry for yet another "hows that switch again?" question, but the newegg reviews say on the one hand black alps has no click, and on the other hand that its as loud as model M. Someone to explain?
 
also, arent there both clicky and non clicky black alps? clicky like in the smk85 with black alps that xsphat reviewed in review section. But elsewhere people have described it as not having a click...
 
I thought black alps was like cherry browns without the bump?
Is resistance about as light as cherry browns?
If there is no click, is the clack just the bottoming out on the black alps?
 
[update: I gather the black alps are "like cherry browns with slightly less of a bump".  Is the spring resistance about the same? is the noise mainly from bottoming out?]

[alpslover]

also, arent there both clicky and non clicky black alps? clicky like in the smk85 with black alps that xsphat reviewed in review section. But elsewhere people have described it as not having a click...
 
I thought black alps was like cherry browns without the bump?
Is resistance about as light as cherry browns?
If there is no click, is the clack just the bottoming out on the black alps?

my own experience with genuine black alps keyswitches is exclusively with the ones used in dell at101 keyboards.  these make very little noise during the downstroke (but there is a slight tactile feel), and the springs are fairly stiff so the switches need a good amount of force to depress (if i had to guess, perhaps close to model m force levels).  pretty much all of the noise is from the keys bottoming out.

all in all, i don't like these switches.

note that the switches in this abs keyboard may not be genuine alps switches, so there's really no telling how they'll feel.

[wellington1869]

my own experience with genuine black alps keyswitches is exclusively with the ones used in dell at101 keyboards. these make very little noise during the downstroke (but there is a slight tactile feel), and the springs are fairly stiff so the switches need a good amount of force to depress (if i had to guess, perhaps close to model m force levels). pretty much all of the noise is from the keys bottoming out.
 
all in all, i don't like these switches.
 
note that the switches in this abs keyboard may not be genuine alps switches, so there's really no telling how they'll feel.

Thanks alpslover! If you've had any experience with cherry blacks, how would you compare alps blacks with them? They sound very similar.
I guess my one concern is spring tension. The black cherries eventually I found to be too stiff. The brown cherries I find to be a bit too light. Wondering if black alps will be a goldilocks-like middle ground, as far as spring tension.

[xsphat]

The black Alps are loud because the springs twang and reverberate with every keystroke and they tend to be loud when they bottom out. I had an SMK85 with brand new black genuine Alps switches.

[wellington1869]

The black Alps are loud because the springs twang and reverberate with every keystroke and they tend to be loud when they bottom out. I had an SMK85 with brand new black genuine Alps switches.

how would you rate spring tension as compared with cherry blacks and browns?

[pex]

I sent the following e-mail to ABS to try to pry more honest, accurate, and technical information from them regarding the capabilities of their M1 keyboard.  Please note that some of the claims I have made in my e-mail may only approach truth if they are not truth, mainly in an effort prod them to respond with technical information (even if only to correct my assumptions.)

RE: ABS M1 Heavy Duty Professional Gaming Mechanical Keyboard

From the overview of this keyboard you offer, I read that "M1 also supports
6-key typing capacity", later alluding to the USB connection.

I know that the nature of USB and related protocols is what limits the
recognition of simultaneous key conditions, in which case 6 statuses are at
most transmitted without the use of proprietary drivers.  What I would like
to know is if this keyboard is designed with PS/2 compatibility in mind, and
if full n-key rollover is realized using a PS/2 connection configuration.

My limited understanding in keyboard mechanics suggests the most likely
route used to achieve this solution, of a '6-key typing capacity', is a
matrix with individually dioded keys.  I make this estimation based on price
and industry manufacturing 'standards'.

Because you don't appear to make any patentable claims (the 'standard
keyboard' see a lot of rehashing rather than specific innovation, and that's
certainly fine because a lot of companies still miss the mark,) it would be
helpful for me to make a decision and suggest this keyboard to my friends if
you could elaborate on how your design has allowed you to achieve '6-key
typing capacity' for your keyboard.

N-key rollover is certainly not foreign to the market, but for whatever
reason, marketing departments do not stress this functionality or instead
use confusing and disparate terms regarding such a technology.  65 dollars
may be reasonable for a keyboard with this technology, but until
manufacturers/distributors start coming clean about what exactly the
technology is that is made available on the keyboard, it will forever be
hard to tell what is really being offered, and therefore less likely that
any specific keyboard might be chosen and purchased.

I look forward to your response to my inquiry.

[lowpoly]

If they manufacture the keyboards, why do they have the Das keyboard in their product inventory?

That's what I thought until I read that the III is made in Taiwan. So it might be made by DSI, Costar or some other Taiwanese OEM mfgr.

Exactly like I predicted!

[Chloe]

I guess my one concern is spring tension. The black cherries eventually I found to be too stiff. The brown cherries I find to be a bit too light.

Shortening the springs in the black MX might produce a tension in between the two.

[wellington1869]

Shortening the springs in the black MX might produce a tension in between the two.

does black alps have a tension between the two?

[DMuk]

I thought Alps no longer made switches.

[fkeidjn]

I thought Alps no longer made switches.

There are Alps clones, such as that Matias Tactile and StrongMan.  For some reason, the StrongMan website uses an ip address for their website?  Most likely, those Alps switches are made by StrongMan.

[lowpoly]

STRONG WANGS ENTERPRISE CO., LTD.
STRONG MAN ENTERPRISE CO., LTD.

Strong company names.

[alpslover]

The black Alps are loud because the springs twang and reverberate with every keystroke and they tend to be loud when they bottom out. I had an SMK85 with brand new black genuine Alps switches.

on the other hand, the black alps switches used on dell keyboards don't twang and reverberate.  the only noise they make during their stroke is a sliding sound.  the keys do make noise when bottoming and topping out, although even this varies from keyboard to keyboard.

[itlnstln]

STRONG WANGS ENTERPRISE CO., LTD.

Damn...  Somebody found my secret website.

[lowpoly]

on the other hand, the black alps switches used on dell keyboards don't twang and reverberate.  the only noise they make during their stroke is a sliding sound.  the keys do make noise when bottoming and topping out, although even this varies from keyboard to keyboard.

The Dell and SGI ATs have a metal backplate in addition to the pcb. Quite a sturdy construction.

[pex]

I sent the following e-mail to ABS

Here is the response I got...looks like a Tier 1 copout:

Thank you for contacting ABS.

We regret to inform you that this keyboard interface is USB but not
PS/2. You may find that it only has a USB cable with this keyboard.

Thank you for your understanding. If you have more questions or
concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us.

So I shoot back with some more technobabble that may or may not be correct:

I understand that the plug that is attached to the wire that comes from the
keyboard is a USB spec plug.  What I also generally understand is that USB
keyboards are /historically/ generally backward-compatible to PS/2
interfaces lest they have some significant features that preclude such
backward-compatibility (it is as simple as a small adapter.)  Because I
would expect the keyboard to naturally be backward compatible unless it was
specifically designed not to be, I feel all of my questions from the
original message still apply.

[lowpoly]

If the ABS is made by Costar then these guys probably have no idea. They're just a marketing company.

Maybe contact Costar directly.

[pex]

This is starting to get a bit obnoxious.

PS/2 port and USB port are definitely different. This key board only has
USB port; thus it can be connected into USB port only. This ABS MA
keyboard only has a USB connector.

 

PS/2 connector

 

 

 

 

USB connector

 

 

 

Thank you for your understanding. If you have more questions or
concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us.

This is my last response before I ask this issue to be escalated.

I understand that the M1 keyboard only has a USB connector.  That connector, however, does not prohibit the protocols the controller may use to connect with a computer.

Since we are referring to Wikipedia, you may find this section from the "USB" article telling:

Most specifically:
"Mice and keyboards are frequently fitted with USB connectors, but because most PC motherboards still retain PS/2 connectors for the keyboard and mouse as of 2007, they are often supplied with a small USB-to-PS/2 adaptor, allowing usage with either USB or PS/2 interface. There is no logic inside these adaptors: they make use of the fact that such HID (Human Interface Device) interfaces are equipped with controllers that are capable of serving both the USB and the PS/2 protocol, and automatically detect which type of port they are plugged into."

Based on my technical knowledge and the information provided on your website about the M1, I would feel it is more likely than not that, with the common and appropriate adaptor, the keyboard will be handled successfully by a computer through the PS/2 interface.  I did not design your keyboard, however, which is why I ask if this design feature took place.

Further, my only interest in PS/2 compatibility is because that is the only interface (of PS/2 and USB) where n-key rollover might be tested properly (in 'real-life-use-simulation' testing, anyway).  Because the ABS website does not use term 'n-key rollover' and instead alludes to the confusing and assuming phrase '6-key typing capacity', that leads me to believe that it may have n-key rollover capability limited by the USB interface.  (You must understand that it is normal for keyboards using the USB specification protocols to be limited to 6 keypresses at a time because of how the protocol buffers keyboard data exchanges with computers -- only with special hardware tricks or special drivers could this normally be altered.)

Therefore it is immaterial except for confirming your claims that the PS/2 interface is compatible with the M1 keyboard.  My interest is most particularly in how '6-key typing capacity' was achieved, so that I may understand if this keyboard has the n-key rollover feature, and the PS/2 interface is the best interface to realize the n-key rollover feature.  A keyboard may have n-key rollover but will not achieve that in practical use because of the protocol it uses to send information about the keyboard to the computer (the limiting protocol here is USB, as previously mentioned.)

I hope with this understanding that my questions may be more readily answered.

I also just contacted Costar asking if the CST-104 keyboard, which is the keyboard we suspect to be the OEM version of the ABS M1,  has full n-key rollover capability.

[xsphat]

I love the wikipedia links to PS/2 and USB. I'd boycott them if I were you. Hell, I'll start boycotting them right now!

[bhtooefr]

Buy one, grab a USB->PS/2 adapter, try it, if it doesn't work, send it back.

This is Geekhack, the answer is always to buy more keyboards.

[iMav]

Buy one, grab a USB->PS/2 adapter, try it, if it doesn't work, send it back.

This is Geekhack, the answer is always to buy more keyboards.

Now, this is a geekhacker that GETS IT!  

[pex]

You know, I already have 20 keyboards lying around that I haven't even identified. :/

Here is the latest lamery from ABS:

As specified in previously email; this keyboard only has USB interface.
If you want to connect it into PS/2 port of your computer, please
purchase a USB-PS/2 converter or a keyboard with PS/2 feature. For your
convenience, you may find a converter here:
http://www.chiefvalue.com/product-_-productdetails.cv_-_item--CE00033833
010060
<http://www.chiefvalue.com/product-_-productdetails.cv_-_item--CE0003383
3010060>  

 

Thank you for your understanding. If you have more questions or
concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us.

Here is my plea for escalation:

This information is really not satisfactory.  I hope it was clear to you that I know, mechanically, a keyboard with a USB connector can be attached to a USB-to-PS/2 adaptor and receive signals from a computer when plugged into a PS/2 port, regardless of whether the keyboard controller can appropriately manage the signals.

I also know that sometime first tier customer support isn't provided with the best database of answers to handle all inquiries.  I know this because I have worked multiple levels of customer service in the IT industry.  Since I feel based on our correspondece that ABS has not provided you the answers I need to have my questions resolved, I ask that you escalate my inquiry to your supervisor, technical support, the design team, or whatever department may be most appropriate.

No response from Costar yet.

[pex]

And failure.

We are sorry that this answer cannot make you satisfied. By considering
your situation, we encourage you to give us a call on our toll free
number (800) 685-3471, thus we can have our experienced technicians to
work with you personally.

 

Thank you for your understanding. If you have more questions or
concerns, please do not hesitate to contact us.

[iMav]

And failure.

Having the option of calling them direct and sorting it out over a live conversation seems like progress to me.

[kyamei]

keyboard is on sale at Newegg for $39.99 with promo code EMCBBCJDK for black friday.

Edit:  How are black ALPS anyways?  I hear mixed reviews about the Dell AT101W, but I'm not sure if that's a problem with the board or the switches.  Then again, at that price I might have to pick one of those up.

[sashomasho]

keyboard is on sale at Newegg for $39.99 with promo code EMCBBCJDK for black friday.

Is there something like benippon for USA, this keyboard looks very promising, and I would love to take one, but since I live outside USA I don't know how I can buy from newegg. It seems I can't find these keyboard anywhere else. If someone is willing to help to export one of these (everything will be paid via paypal) I'll be very thankful.

[skriefal]

It's already sold out, so you probably won't get one for the $39.99 price unless you did so earlier.

[sashomasho]

It's already sold out, so you probably won't get one for the $39.99 price unless you did so earlier.

Thanks anyway, I'll keep looking for a black ALPS quality keyboard... I hope  at least some of you guys bought it, so I can see how good this keyboard really is...

[skriefal]

Alps no longer is making switches, so I doubt that these actually have real Alps switches in them.  Perhaps an Alps clone from Strongman, although I've seen those only in the white (clicky, tactile) variety.  Or perhaps black Cherry switches?

If the M1 does in fact use linear black Alps or Alps-like switches, then it's probably not worth $39 unless it significantly exceeds the build quality of a $10 Dell AT101W.

[sashomasho]

If the M1 does in fact use linear black Alps or Alps-like switches, then it's probably not worth $39 unless it significantly exceeds the build quality of a $10 Dell AT101W.

10$ (+45 for shipping) for a used old dell with suspicious owner who loves to eat greasy donuts over his keyboard? j/k, i'm sure a good one can be bought, but they are big, from the pictures they seem at least big as my model m, which is the reason I don't use it anymore. As a matter of fact I avoid using my 104 filco (although I love the brown cherrys) and prefer typing on one from my two compact choices -  hhkb pro and macally mk96, but if I wake up with the desire to use a full size keyboard - then I haven't seen anything better than filco that can suit me better, so from my point of view this ABS is worth a shot.

[skriefal]

Yeah, the AT101Ws are a bit larger than the ABS or Filco.  Valid point.  Not enough to really matter to me, though.  If the size difference was closer to that found between an HHKB Pro and an AT101W... then I'd matter to me!

[alexlzl]

Thanks for kyamei's tip, I got this ABS keyboard for $39.99 on newegg and it arrived today. I just opened the box, the board build quality is quite good. I especially like the keycap (nice font) and cable (nylon wrapped).

It is a clicky, tactile mechanical switch keyboard and I love it. I am not very experienced with keyboards yet, but based on the diagram on the manual, it looks like a Alps. I will post some pictures a bit later.

[wellington1869]

Thanks for kyamei's tip, I got this ABS keyboard for $39.99 on newegg and it arrived today. I just opened the box, the board build quality is quite good. I especially like the keycap (nice font) and cable (nylon wrapped).

It is a clicky, tactile mechanical switch keyboard and I love it. I am not very experienced with keyboards yet, but based on the diagram on the manual, it looks like a Alps. I will post some pictures a bit later.

white alps or black alps?

[alexlzl]

First time pulled a keycap, used brutal force (my puller is on order), just for you. :-)
It is BLACK. I will post pic later tonight.

[wellington1869]

First time pulled a keycap, used brutal force (my puller is on order), just for you. :-)
It is BLACK. I will post pic later tonight.

Thanks!

[alexlzl]

The build quality is quite good, braided USB cable feels nice. The board feels solid and heavy in the hand.



Mechanical switch, I took off one keycap, it shows Alps Black switch. It is quite comfortable to type on, comparable to my other Unitek K-258 (suppose to be Alps White).

It also says on the box that the keyboard supports "simultaneous 6-key press". Link to manufacturer

[xsphat]

Nice, good score.

[itlnstln]

Remember, this is the same keyboard as the Das III (with the different switch option), so you might want to watch out for the issue with the mistyping Das III owners have been having (check out the thread for more info).

[lowpoly]

This was the same keyboard as the Filco? And it doesn't have the 12 key rollover of the Das III. Still a Costar board so it might be worth checking for the problem.

[alexlzl]

Took the board to the office today, the clicking noise is killing my colleagues. Didn't notice the "metal clashing" kind of sound at home before. Damn, may have to take it home, sad.

[itlnstln]

I have, probably, the noisiest 'board on earth (Northgate Evolution - White, Clicky Alps), and I just don't care about what my co-workers think.  Of course, with the split-ergo layout, I need it for "health reasons" (which is true, though).

[wellington1869]

Took the board to the office today, the clicking noise is killing my colleagues. Didn't notice the "metal clashing" kind of sound at home before. Damn, may have to take it home, sad.

maybe you can play a radio over it
(or, sing!)

[D-EJ915]

if it's got alps switches then it's the filco zero, maybe we should make noise at this ABS place to bring over the other ones...