Author Topic: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions  (Read 1249077 times)

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Offline Nai_Calus

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #450 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 01:48:48 »
For me personally, caps lock has zero uses. I literally never use it.

Neither keyboard I'm currently using even has capslock configured on it at the moment. My Code and my F both have capslock set as a second LCtrl. More necessary on the F since that doesn't have a shiny light to tell me the annoying thing is on. :P

I wouldn't mind seeing it replacing the Pause/Break button as I haven't used that once in my 22 years of computing. Frees up the prime real estate of the current CapsLock while leaving it as an option for those who use it.

Could make an interesting poll to see who uses it these days.

Does that key even do anything in Windows? Like, I literally have no idea what it's supposed to do. I have never used it for anything ever.

Same for Insert. OK yes it does something and I know what it does, but I've never found its behavior really useful. Remembering it and remembering to turn it back off and correcting for word length differences is more annoying than just shift+arrowing to select text and hitting backspace or delete. >_>;

Also the menu key is useless and should be replaced with something actually worthwhile like FN or just not there at all. Same with Menu as with Capslock, on the Code it's FN for the LEDs, on the F it's FN for accessing the F keys.
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Offline Altis

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #451 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 02:09:44 »
Does that key even do anything in Windows? Like, I literally have no idea what it's supposed to do. I have never used it for anything ever.

Same for Insert. OK yes it does something and I know what it does, but I've never found its behavior really useful. Remembering it and remembering to turn it back off and correcting for word length differences is more annoying than just shift+arrowing to select text and hitting backspace or delete. >_>;

Also the menu key is useless and should be replaced with something actually worthwhile like FN or just not there at all. Same with Menu as with Capslock, on the Code it's FN for the LEDs, on the F it's FN for accessing the F keys.

I don't think Pause/Break has done anything in decades. Scroll lock doesn't seem to, either.

Insert was used mostly for the old DOS-like software where values had to be in certain positions. You could rewrite over a bunch of values, but you would have to delete them one by one. Systems like this are still used in inventory, ordering, car rentals, airport bookings, etc. I don't think many people use it in the desktop environment at all, though.

I've never bothered with the Menu key but recently I've learned from people that it can be useful for shortcuts provided you actually learn how to use it. For example, Menu>W>F to make a new folder in Windows. I think it's for those who like to fly around with the keyboard and avoid mouse interaction. I don't suspect more than a handful of people use it at all, but I figure those who do would swear by it.
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Offline Nai_Calus

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #452 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 02:19:01 »
Alt will already let you do that. Alt, f, w, f will create a new folder in Explorer. XD Maybe it cuts a key off that I guess? Dunno.
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Offline heedpantsnow

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #453 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 02:22:20 »
Ctrl+Break stops the execution of a command line program. If you use CLI, it's indispensable. If not, you prob have no use for it at all.
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Offline sypl

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #454 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 03:45:29 »
Ctrl+Break stops the execution of a command line program. If you use CLI, it's indispensable. If not, you prob have no use for it at all.

Is there any program you can't do that with ctrl+x, ctrl+c nowadays?

Offline sypl

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #455 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 03:55:38 »
There are many other advantages of caps lock versus using shift. For example, I work in commercial building operation. When naming points and doing graphics, we often use all-caps. The letters are mixed with numbers though, making holding shift a lot more work than it's worth. With hundreds of names like "C04AHU16-P6STS", caps lock makes it a breeze. Using caps-lock makes the keyboard act exactly the same as without, just the letters are capitalized, leaving the numbers and symbols all the same so you can just type everything normally without thinking about it.

This.

If you’re manually typing hundreds of names like C04AHU16-P6STS into a freeform text field, then IMO there’s probably something horribly wrong with the overall process that goes way beyond caps lock.

Yeah, because you're always in control of what you need to enter.

And yes, this is something I have implemented. I have a systemwide shortcut which marks the current insertion point, selects the current word, invokes a 'capitalize' command, and then restores the insertion point, and another shortcut which capitalizes the current selection. (In a more capable text editor, those two can be combined.)

If you have powerful text selection commands (for selecting in various directions by subwords/words/lines/sentences/paragraphs/screens, then it becomes a snap to quickly select specific chunks of text and invoke commands on the selection. This is more general and more powerful than just having a 'caps lock' key, because there are many things besides just capitalizing that I might want to do with some chunk of text.

Which you're doing at a software level. You want your keyboard controller to do that? Just how would I tell a keyboard to select a sentence in order to capitalize it? And in what world would you, knowing that you need that sentence capitalized, write it first and then capitalize?

Everyone has macros, dude. Don't get macros and keyboards confused.

Offline davkol

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #456 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 04:12:29 »
Most of these keys made sense back in the day of IBM CUA. For example, [C|S]-Insert was used for copypasta (and X.Org have adopted it).

Offline Hiroyuki

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #457 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 08:44:29 »
1. (ANSI layout) Esc should be above tab, next to the 1-key, |\ and ~` should be where backspace is on standard keyboards, backspace should be where |\ normally is. LCtrl and CapsLock should be swapped.
2. I can't stand the <> being left of z on ISO keyboards, even worse, I really really dislike the huge enter key on ISO keyboards...
3. What's with the idiotic decision of placing {[]} on the third layer, having to use AltGraph to type them in Nordic layouts?
4. Instead of trying to get rid of capslock-mode, why don't we just teach everybody vim, then we would have full fledged modes to work with  :p

Offline katushkin

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #458 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 09:34:28 »
1. (ANSI layout) Esc should be above tab, next to the 1-key, |\ and ~` should be where backspace is on standard keyboards, backspace should be where |\ normally is. LCtrl and CapsLock should be swapped.
2. I can't stand the <> being left of z on ISO keyboards, even worse, I really really dislike the huge enter key on ISO keyboards...
3. What's with the idiotic decision of placing {[]} on the third layer, having to use AltGraph to type them in Nordic layouts?
4. Instead of trying to get rid of capslock-mode, why don't we just teach everybody vim, then we would have full fledged modes to work with  :p

The <> keys aren't to the left of the Z on ISO boards, the |\ key is...
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Offline davkol

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #459 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 09:48:38 »
The <> keys aren't to the left of the Z on ISO boards, the |\ key is...
They are, depending on particular national layout. The key itself returns an unique keycode though. I remap it to diacritic marks (as dead keys). Some people shift the ZXCVB cluster one key to the left, because this "angle mod" is more ergonomic than stock staggered QWERTY. Others use it as a layer toggle (see the Neo layout, for example).

Offline katushkin

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #460 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 09:50:12 »
The <> keys aren't to the left of the Z on ISO boards, the |\ key is...
They are, depending on particular national layout. The key itself returns an unique keycode though. I remap it to diacritic marks (as dead keys). Some people shift the ZXCVB cluster one key to the left, because this "angle mod" is more ergonomic than stock staggered QWERTY. Others use it as a layer toggle (see the Neo layout, for example).

Oh yeah, it is on Nordic ISO. That's weird...
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Offline Altis

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #461 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 10:46:10 »
I have an unpopular keyboard opinion:

The 2012 Razer Blackwidow Ultimate with Cherry MX Blue switches is actually a very well built keyboard, with the exception of the keycaps (which are quite dismal).
Of all my keyboards, the case is the most sturdy and thoroughly put together.
WhiteFox (Gateron Brown) -- Realforce 87U 45g -- Realforce 104UG (Hi Pro 45g) -- Realforce 108US 30g JIS -- HHKB Pro 2 -- IBM Model M ('90) -- IBM Model M SSK ('87) -- NMB RT-101 & RT-8255C+ (Hi-Tek Space Invaders) -- Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blue Alps) -- KPT-102 (KPT Alps) -- KUL ES-87 (62/65g Purple Zealios) -- CM QFR (MX Red) -- Apple Aluminum BT -- Realforce 23u Numpad -- Logitech K740 -- QSENN DT-35 -- Zenith Z-150 (Green Alps)

Offline Dihedral

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #462 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 11:10:09 »
I have an unpopular keyboard opinion:

The 2012 Razer Blackwidow Ultimate with Cherry MX Blue switches is actually a very well built keyboard, with the exception of the keycaps (which are quite dismal).
Of all my keyboards, the case is the most sturdy and thoroughly put together.

You have several Model Ms...

Offline Altis

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #463 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 11:27:42 »
I have an unpopular keyboard opinion:

The 2012 Razer Blackwidow Ultimate with Cherry MX Blue switches is actually a very well built keyboard, with the exception of the keycaps (which are quite dismal).
Of all my keyboards, the case is the most sturdy and thoroughly put together.

You have several Model Ms...

I am aware of that. They aren't as rigid or solid as my 2012 BW. One of the Ms is even bolt-modded.
WhiteFox (Gateron Brown) -- Realforce 87U 45g -- Realforce 104UG (Hi Pro 45g) -- Realforce 108US 30g JIS -- HHKB Pro 2 -- IBM Model M ('90) -- IBM Model M SSK ('87) -- NMB RT-101 & RT-8255C+ (Hi-Tek Space Invaders) -- Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blue Alps) -- KPT-102 (KPT Alps) -- KUL ES-87 (62/65g Purple Zealios) -- CM QFR (MX Red) -- Apple Aluminum BT -- Realforce 23u Numpad -- Logitech K740 -- QSENN DT-35 -- Zenith Z-150 (Green Alps)

Offline Dihedral

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #464 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 11:30:41 »
I have an unpopular keyboard opinion:

The 2012 Razer Blackwidow Ultimate with Cherry MX Blue switches is actually a very well built keyboard, with the exception of the keycaps (which are quite dismal).
Of all my keyboards, the case is the most sturdy and thoroughly put together.

You have several Model Ms...

I am aware of that. They aren't as rigid or solid as my 2012 BW. One of the Ms is even bolt-modded.

That is surprising. I would have expected both the Model Ms and the Realforce to be way out of the BWs league.

Offline katushkin

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #465 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 11:33:10 »
I have an unpopular keyboard opinion:

The 2012 Razer Blackwidow Ultimate with Cherry MX Blue switches is actually a very well built keyboard, with the exception of the keycaps (which are quite dismal).
Of all my keyboards, the case is the most sturdy and thoroughly put together.

I think it's well built as well. I have one that's still going as well. But I definitely disagree with it vs a Model M.
Can we get them to build the Alps ten feet higher and get Cherry to pay for it?
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Offline davkol

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #466 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 11:37:47 »
I have absolutely zero doubt that many gaming keyboards feel tighter and sturdier than most high-quality equipment, which usually happens to feel hollow. However, it's reliability that matters in the long run.

Offline hwood34

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #467 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 11:38:30 »
I have an unpopular keyboard opinion:

The 2012 Razer Blackwidow Ultimate with Cherry MX Blue switches is actually a very well built keyboard, with the exception of the keycaps (which are quite dismal).
Of all my keyboards, the case is the most sturdy and thoroughly put together.

You have several Model Ms...

I am aware of that. They aren't as rigid or solid as my 2012 BW. One of the Ms is even bolt-modded.

weeeeeeeeelllllllll about that....
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Offline Altis

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #468 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 11:53:13 »
I have an unpopular keyboard opinion:

The 2012 Razer Blackwidow Ultimate with Cherry MX Blue switches is actually a very well built keyboard, with the exception of the keycaps (which are quite dismal).
Of all my keyboards, the case is the most sturdy and thoroughly put together.

You have several Model Ms...

I am aware of that. They aren't as rigid or solid as my 2012 BW. One of the Ms is even bolt-modded.

weeeeeeeeelllllllll about that....

It's just the truth. Both my Model M cases, and really all the cases I have, make all kinds of noises when you apply any kind of flex to them.

The BW (keep in mind it's not the same as the newer ones) is tight as a drum. Not a peep under flex/torsion. I took it apart once and it's held together by a ton of screws. The inside of the case is also quite well done... nice PCB (nearly black), lots of supports, and a nice plate. It weighs about the same as the Model M full size.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Ms, and I use them a lot more. That doesn't mean that everything about them is better, though.

If you want to talk about tinny/cheap cases though, the Chicony feels like it's made from a Kinder Surprise...
WhiteFox (Gateron Brown) -- Realforce 87U 45g -- Realforce 104UG (Hi Pro 45g) -- Realforce 108US 30g JIS -- HHKB Pro 2 -- IBM Model M ('90) -- IBM Model M SSK ('87) -- NMB RT-101 & RT-8255C+ (Hi-Tek Space Invaders) -- Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blue Alps) -- KPT-102 (KPT Alps) -- KUL ES-87 (62/65g Purple Zealios) -- CM QFR (MX Red) -- Apple Aluminum BT -- Realforce 23u Numpad -- Logitech K740 -- QSENN DT-35 -- Zenith Z-150 (Green Alps)

Offline katushkin

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #469 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 11:57:20 »
Bear in mind the Model Ms are probably 20 years older than the BW... The Model M has a massive metal plate inside it.

In a fight, the Model M would destroy a BW.
Can we get them to build the Alps ten feet higher and get Cherry to pay for it?
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Offline Dihedral

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #470 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 11:58:20 »
I have an unpopular keyboard opinion:

The 2012 Razer Blackwidow Ultimate with Cherry MX Blue switches is actually a very well built keyboard, with the exception of the keycaps (which are quite dismal).
Of all my keyboards, the case is the most sturdy and thoroughly put together.

You have several Model Ms...

I am aware of that. They aren't as rigid or solid as my 2012 BW. One of the Ms is even bolt-modded.

weeeeeeeeelllllllll about that....

It's just the truth. Both my Model M cases, and really all the cases I have, make all kinds of noises when you apply any kind of flex to them.

The BW (keep in mind it's not the same as the newer ones) is tight as a drum. Not a peep under flex/torsion. I took it apart once and it's held together by a ton of screws. The inside of the case is also quite well done... nice PCB (nearly black), lots of supports, and a nice plate. It weighs about the same as the Model M full size.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Ms, and I use them a lot more. That doesn't mean that everything about them is better, though.

If you want to talk about tinny/cheap cases though, the Chicony feels like it's made from a Kinder Surprise...

The BlackWidow Ultimate weighs around 1500g. The Model M weighs 2000g - 2500g

Offline nubbinator

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #471 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:00:46 »
Why are we arguing which would win?  Both Model Ms and the Black Widow suck.

Offline Dihedral

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #472 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:04:23 »
Why are we arguing which would win?  Both Model Ms and the Black Widow suck.


Offline jacobolus

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #473 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:06:50 »
Yeah, because you're always in control of what you need to enter.
As a programmer, pretty much. If I’m manually typing too much boilerplate or bull****, then I’m doing something wrong, and something needs a better abstraction or needs to be automated.

Quote from: jacobolus
I have a systemwide shortcut which marks the current insertion point, selects the current word, invokes a 'capitalize' command, and then restores the insertion point, and another shortcut which capitalizes the current selection. (In a more capable text editor, those two can be combined.)

If you have powerful text selection commands (for selecting in various directions by subwords/words/lines/sentences/paragraphs/screens, then it becomes a snap to quickly select specific chunks of text and invoke commands on the selection. This is more general and more powerful than just having a 'caps lock' key, because there are many things besides just capitalizing that I might want to do with some chunk of text.

Quote from: sypl
Which you're doing at a software level. You want your keyboard controller to do that? Just how would I tell a keyboard to select a sentence in order to capitalize it? And in what world would you, knowing that you need that sentence capitalized, write it first and then capitalize?
The best level to handle these things depends on the text editor, operating system, and keyboard firmware in use. Unfortunately, because these things have evolved in a messy historical process, there are like 6–10 distinct layers of interpretation between physically pressing a key and access to the event by GUI software, especially e.g. on web pages. Those layers interact in complex and often stupid ways, because the people who built them solved particular needs instead of making properly general abstract models, and it’s somewhere between pathologically difficult and impossible to change several of them, depending on the operating system. This makes it basically impossible to have full control as a user over the way a keyboard interacts with a GUI. The best we can do is patch a few things here and a few things there. Having full control over the keyboard firmware makes many things much easier though.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:08:43 by jacobolus »

Offline Altis

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #474 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:11:46 »
It's just the truth. Both my Model M cases, and really all the cases I have, make all kinds of noises when you apply any kind of flex to them.

The BW (keep in mind it's not the same as the newer ones) is tight as a drum. Not a peep under flex/torsion. I took it apart once and it's held together by a ton of screws. The inside of the case is also quite well done... nice PCB (nearly black), lots of supports, and a nice plate. It weighs about the same as the Model M full size.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Ms, and I use them a lot more. That doesn't mean that everything about them is better, though.

If you want to talk about tinny/cheap cases though, the Chicony feels like it's made from a Kinder Surprise...

The BlackWidow Ultimate weighs around 1500g. The Model M weighs 2000g - 2500g

I just weighed them both and the BW is about 4/5 the weight of the M. Not that far off and still both quite heavy.

Having a heavy plate isn't enough to make it better put together, though, which is my point. There is no play, flex, squeaks, or anything that I can observe when applying force to the BW case.
It's drum-tight, uses a bunch more screws and reinforcement inside.

My Model Ms, despite one being bolt-modded, still makes a bunch of case noise and there is some play. I can just pick either one up by the sides and squeeze lightly and it makes the typical plasticky noises. There just isn't the reinforcement there. There's also no attention to detail inside the keyboard, and the plastic rivets were never going to make for a solid case.

Why are we arguing which would win?  Both Model Ms and the Black Widow suck.

There is no "win"... Just that the older BW has a more solid case with more attention to detail than any other board I have.

My 87U top case shifts 1mm left/right, even.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:14:01 by Altis »
WhiteFox (Gateron Brown) -- Realforce 87U 45g -- Realforce 104UG (Hi Pro 45g) -- Realforce 108US 30g JIS -- HHKB Pro 2 -- IBM Model M ('90) -- IBM Model M SSK ('87) -- NMB RT-101 & RT-8255C+ (Hi-Tek Space Invaders) -- Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blue Alps) -- KPT-102 (KPT Alps) -- KUL ES-87 (62/65g Purple Zealios) -- CM QFR (MX Red) -- Apple Aluminum BT -- Realforce 23u Numpad -- Logitech K740 -- QSENN DT-35 -- Zenith Z-150 (Green Alps)

Offline nubbinator

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #475 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:12:19 »
Why are we arguing which would win?  Both Model Ms and the Black Widow suck.

Show Image






> Posts unpopular opinion in unpopular opinion thread, gets accused of starting flame war


« Last Edit: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:13:55 by nubbinator »

Offline Dihedral

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #476 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:13:38 »
Why are we arguing which would win?  Both Model Ms and the Black Widow suck.

Show Image


Show Image




> Posts unpopular opinion in unpopular opinion thread, gets accused of starting flame war


Show Image


Yeah, fair enough. I was just joking around. Still though, I'd like to hear your reasons for not liking Model Ms considering they are so widely loved.

EDIT: Nice gif edit :D
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:15:17 by Dihedral »

Offline nubbinator

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #477 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:17:02 »
They feel cheap.  They have too much torsional flex. They are wildly inconsistent between boards and sometimes even across the same board even when bolt modded or with all solid rivets. They have an annoying sharp ping (unlike the more pleasing click on a Model F). They have too much key wobble.  They don't age well, at least IMO.  Most require modding and a bit of work to feel decent.  I could go on, but don't feel like it.  I thought they were okay when I first tried one, then I tried a Model F AT and every flaw of the Model M was highlighted.
« Last Edit: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:18:53 by nubbinator »

Offline davkol

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #478 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:18:40 »
It's just the truth. Both my Model M cases, and really all the cases I have, make all kinds of noises when you apply any kind of flex to them.

The BW (keep in mind it's not the same as the newer ones) is tight as a drum. Not a peep under flex/torsion. I took it apart once and it's held together by a ton of screws. The inside of the case is also quite well done... nice PCB (nearly black), lots of supports, and a nice plate. It weighs about the same as the Model M full size.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Ms, and I use them a lot more. That doesn't mean that everything about them is better, though.

If you want to talk about tinny/cheap cases though, the Chicony feels like it's made from a Kinder Surprise...

The BlackWidow Ultimate weighs around 1500g. The Model M weighs 2000g - 2500g

I just weighed them both and the BW is about 4/5 the weight of the M. Not that far off and still both quite heavy.

Having a heavy plate isn't enough to make it better put together, though, which is my point. There is no play, flex, squeaks, or anything that I can observe when applying force to the BW case.
It's drum-tight, uses a bunch more screws and reinforcement inside.

My Model Ms, despite one being bolt-modded, still makes a bunch of case noise and there is some play. I can just pick either one up by the sides and squeeze lightly and it makes the typical plasticky noises. There just isn't the reinforcement there. There's also no attention to detail inside the keyboard, and the plastic rivets were never going to make for a solid case.

Why are we arguing which would win?  Both Model Ms and the Black Widow suck.

There is no "win"... Just that the older BW has a more solid case with more attention to detail than any other board I have.

My 87U top case shifts 1mm left/right, even.

The real question is: does it matter?

Offline Dihedral

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #479 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:22:06 »
It's just the truth. Both my Model M cases, and really all the cases I have, make all kinds of noises when you apply any kind of flex to them.

The BW (keep in mind it's not the same as the newer ones) is tight as a drum. Not a peep under flex/torsion. I took it apart once and it's held together by a ton of screws. The inside of the case is also quite well done... nice PCB (nearly black), lots of supports, and a nice plate. It weighs about the same as the Model M full size.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Ms, and I use them a lot more. That doesn't mean that everything about them is better, though.

If you want to talk about tinny/cheap cases though, the Chicony feels like it's made from a Kinder Surprise...

The BlackWidow Ultimate weighs around 1500g. The Model M weighs 2000g - 2500g

I just weighed them both and the BW is about 4/5 the weight of the M. Not that far off and still both quite heavy.

Having a heavy plate isn't enough to make it better put together, though, which is my point. There is no play, flex, squeaks, or anything that I can observe when applying force to the BW case.
It's drum-tight, uses a bunch more screws and reinforcement inside.

My Model Ms, despite one being bolt-modded, still makes a bunch of case noise and there is some play. I can just pick either one up by the sides and squeeze lightly and it makes the typical plasticky noises. There just isn't the reinforcement there. There's also no attention to detail inside the keyboard, and the plastic rivets were never going to make for a solid case.

Why are we arguing which would win?  Both Model Ms and the Black Widow suck.

There is no "win"... Just that the older BW has a more solid case with more attention to detail than any other board I have.

My 87U top case shifts 1mm left/right, even.

A friend has a 2012 (or 13) BW and really likes it. I suspect that as they moved to cheaper switches they also moved to cheaper cases though.

Offline Altis

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #480 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:36:10 »
A friend has a 2012 (or 13) BW and really likes it. I suspect that as they moved to cheaper switches they also moved to cheaper cases though.

I know for a fact both are true. I've witnessed the decline as the local stores carry display models of them around here. It's sad they've gotten quite a bit worse in all respects while maintaining the high price point.

It's also worth giving some credit to Razer for putting MX Cherry boards into the main box stores at a time nobody else really was. People could go to BestBuy/Futureshop and compare MX Brown/Blue switches and see how they feel. Bit of a gamble as the market for >$100 keyboards was quite niche and almost entirely online at that point. Could be one of the reasons so many show up here with a BW having been their first taste.

I know I'm mostly on my own with this opinion but I do stand by it.  :cool:
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Offline inanis

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #481 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:45:33 »

Same for Insert. OK yes it does something and I know what it does, but I've never found its behavior really useful. Remembering it and remembering to turn it back off and correcting for word length differences is more annoying than just shift+arrowing to select text and hitting backspace or delete. >_>;

Insert is super functional. When working in VMWare Ctrl + Alt + Insert takes the place of Ctrl + Alt + Delete. As a heavy VM user, I am using that key all the time. I bet that whoever decided the final layout for the FC660 knew that as well.
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Offline sypl

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #482 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 12:52:33 »
Yeah, because you're always in control of what you need to enter.
As a programmer, pretty much. If I’m manually typing too much boilerplate or bull****, then I’m doing something wrong, and something needs a better abstraction or needs to be automated.

Quote from: jacobolus
I have a systemwide shortcut which marks the current insertion point, selects the current word, invokes a 'capitalize' command, and then restores the insertion point, and another shortcut which capitalizes the current selection. (In a more capable text editor, those two can be combined.)

If you have powerful text selection commands (for selecting in various directions by subwords/words/lines/sentences/paragraphs/screens, then it becomes a snap to quickly select specific chunks of text and invoke commands on the selection. This is more general and more powerful than just having a 'caps lock' key, because there are many things besides just capitalizing that I might want to do with some chunk of text.

Quote from: sypl
Which you're doing at a software level. You want your keyboard controller to do that? Just how would I tell a keyboard to select a sentence in order to capitalize it? And in what world would you, knowing that you need that sentence capitalized, write it first and then capitalize?
The best level to handle these things depends on the text editor, operating system, and keyboard firmware in use. Unfortunately, because these things have evolved in a messy historical process, there are like 6–10 distinct layers of interpretation between physically pressing a key and access to the event by GUI software, especially e.g. on web pages. Those layers interact in complex and often stupid ways, because the people who built them solved particular needs instead of making properly general abstract models, and it’s somewhere between pathologically difficult and impossible to change several of them, depending on the operating system. This makes it basically impossible to have full control as a user over the way a keyboard interacts with a GUI. The best we can do is patch a few things here and a few things there. Having full control over the keyboard firmware makes many things much easier though.

Well, exactly. I know what the sequence of keys is to select a paragraph and capitalize it is in, say, sublime text, but it's completely different in vim. What you enter in to your keyboard though should have absolutely identical results, every time, irrespective or something like text editor. If you need it to work that way in a particular application, then you need some software in the middle (karabiner, autohotkey, alfred?) that interprets your shortcut to do as you wish in that program only.

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #483 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 21:48:39 »
Artisan Keycaps are disgusting, and ruin any real class a keyboard may have had before the artisan pimple arrived on its face.

HHKB aren't overrated imo, they are wonderful keyboards, but I do think they are slightly overpriced.

In terms of layout I won't make any judgements. I know from learning DVORAK and COLEMAK, getting used to the HHKB layout, and various other tweaks that a person can get used to anything. I'm always looking for ways to improve my own layout and comfort while typing.
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Offline rsadek

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #484 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 21:53:31 »
Unpopular opinion, I think, is that we don't need so many windows keys, esp in group buys. A lot of folks use Mac, Linux, Unix, etc. The hegemony of win/menu pairings is frustrating. Let's have some other keys in the mix!

(Seriously, I know the windows keys shortcuts are useful for many, but who wants the windows logo on their keyboard? Is windows so lovely? )
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Offline tbc

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #485 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 22:10:10 »
i am glad no one said g710+ was a good keyboard.

:)
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Offline chicken

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #486 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 22:50:55 »
i am glad no one said g710+ was a good keyboard.

:)
I don't get it either. It's literally a g710 with browns and ****ty o-rings

Alps are cool, but unless matias can mass produce pbt keycaps, it will stay a niche.
If Razer switched to gaterons from kailh, everyone would buy Razer
If l bought a keyboard without a arrowkeys, I would feel empty
40% is useless unless it's ergonomic (Atreus)
The HHKB is stupid, but topre itself is OK.
Your stock keycaps are usually OK
Non-sculpted keycaps are better than cherry profile





Offline jacobolus

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #487 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 23:06:54 »
Alps are cool, but unless matias can mass produce pbt keycaps, it will stay a niche. [...] Your stock keycaps are usually OK
How do you reconcile these two claims?

Quote
Non-sculpted keycaps are better than cherry profile
Can you explain why you think this?

Offline chicken

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #488 on: Sat, 28 March 2015, 23:44:39 »
Alps are cool, but unless matias can mass produce pbt keycaps, it will stay a niche. [...] Your stock keycaps are usually OK
How do you reconcile these two claims?

Quote
Non-sculpted keycaps are better than cherry profile
Can you explain why you think this?

1. A lot of people still want pbt keycaps, even though I don't think they're important. People like snipars think it's unbearable to type on abs, so alps really isn't an option


2. This doesn't really come up if the keysets are blank, but cherry profile isn't as useful to me as the ability to move around letters, if I switch my layout.

Offline sethk_

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #489 on: Sun, 29 March 2015, 08:58:58 »

Alps are cool, but unless matias can mass produce pbt keycaps, it will stay a niche. [...] Your stock keycaps are usually OK
How do you reconcile these two claims?

Quote
Non-sculpted keycaps are better than cherry profile
Can you explain why you think this?

1. A lot of people still want pbt keycaps, even though I don't think they're important. People like snipars think it's unbearable to type on abs, so alps really isn't an option


2. This doesn't really come up if the keysets are blank, but cherry profile isn't as useful to me as the ability to move around letters, if I switch my layout.
He has rethought that out, as stock abs is different than other abs, it's lower quality, and you are basing your opinion on someone else's?

Offline livingspeedbump

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #490 on: Sun, 29 March 2015, 09:12:24 »

[/quote]

1. A lot of people still want pbt keycaps, even though I don't think they're important. People like snipars think it's unbearable to type on abs, so alps really isn't an option


2. This doesn't really come up if the keysets are blank, but cherry profile isn't as useful to me as the ability to move around letters, if I switch my layout.
[/quote]

The only benefit to PBT is that it doesn't shine nearly as easily. That being said I think thickness is far more important than keycap material. Id much rather have a nice GMK ABS set than a cheap PBT set. But if thickness was exactly the same I'd go PBT every day because they don't shine.
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Offline Dihedral

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #491 on: Sun, 29 March 2015, 09:51:52 »


1. A lot of people still want pbt keycaps, even though I don't think they're important. People like snipars think it's unbearable to type on abs, so alps really isn't an option


2. This doesn't really come up if the keysets are blank, but cherry profile isn't as useful to me as the ability to move around letters, if I switch my layout.
[/quote]

The only benefit to PBT is that it doesn't shine nearly as easily. That being said I think thickness is far more important than keycap material. Id much rather have a nice GMK ABS set than a cheap PBT set. But if thickness was exactly the same I'd go PBT every day because they don't shine.
[/quote]

In my limited experience the texture of PBT is definitely superior, and the sound seems better even for comparable thickness caps. The 'thockier' the better when it comes to caps bottoming out.

Offline chicken

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #492 on: Sun, 29 March 2015, 12:15:28 »

Alps are cool, but unless matias can mass produce pbt keycaps, it will stay a niche. [...] Your stock keycaps are usually OK
How do you reconcile these two claims?

Quote
Non-sculpted keycaps are better than cherry profile
Can you explain why you think this?

1. A lot of people still want pbt keycaps, even though I don't think they're important. People like snipars think it's unbearable to type on abs, so alps really isn't an option


2. This doesn't really come up if the keysets are blank, but cherry profile isn't as useful to me as the ability to move around letters, if I switch my layout.
He has rethought that out, as stock abs is different than other abs, it's lower quality, and you are basing your opinion on someone else's?

I was just saying that a lot of people prefer pbt, not hating on him in particular

Offline Altis

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #493 on: Sun, 29 March 2015, 12:15:45 »
Unpopular opinion, I think, is that we don't need so many windows keys, esp in group buys. A lot of folks use Mac, Linux, Unix, etc. The hegemony of win/menu pairings is frustrating. Let's have some other keys in the mix!

(Seriously, I know the windows keys shortcuts are useful for many, but who wants the windows logo on their keyboard? Is windows so lovely? )

It would probably be just as well if they just made them blank. Might it be because so many boards don't support Mac properly?
WhiteFox (Gateron Brown) -- Realforce 87U 45g -- Realforce 104UG (Hi Pro 45g) -- Realforce 108US 30g JIS -- HHKB Pro 2 -- IBM Model M ('90) -- IBM Model M SSK ('87) -- NMB RT-101 & RT-8255C+ (Hi-Tek Space Invaders) -- Chicony KB-5181 (Monterey Blue Alps) -- KPT-102 (KPT Alps) -- KUL ES-87 (62/65g Purple Zealios) -- CM QFR (MX Red) -- Apple Aluminum BT -- Realforce 23u Numpad -- Logitech K740 -- QSENN DT-35 -- Zenith Z-150 (Green Alps)

Offline chicken

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #494 on: Sun, 29 March 2015, 12:22:32 »


1. A lot of people still want pbt keycaps, even though I don't think they're important. People like snipars think it's unbearable to type on abs, so alps really isn't an option


2. This doesn't really come up if the keysets are blank, but cherry profile isn't as useful to me as the ability to move around letters, if I switch my layout.

The only benefit to PBT is that it doesn't shine nearly as easily. That being said I think thickness is far more important than keycap material. Id much rather have a nice GMK ABS set than a cheap PBT set. But if thickness was exactly the same I'd go PBT every day because they don't shine.
[/quote]

In my limited experience the texture of PBT is definitely superior, and the sound seems better even for comparable thickness caps. The 'thockier' the better when it comes to caps bottoming out.
[/quote]

I really don't care too much about the look or feel of each keycap, but I see your point on sound. The type heaven sounds unbearable with stock keycaps, but sounds a lot nicer with pbt. But l still wouldn't spend money on my keycaps, unless my stock keycap legends started wearing or something.

Offline sethk_

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #495 on: Sun, 29 March 2015, 12:22:32 »
Unpopular opinion, I think, is that we don't need so many windows keys, esp in group buys. A lot of folks use Mac, Linux, Unix, etc. The hegemony of win/menu pairings is frustrating. Let's have some other keys in the mix!

(Seriously, I know the windows keys shortcuts are useful for many, but who wants the windows logo on their keyboard? Is windows so lovely? )

It would probably be just as well if they just made them blank. Might it be because so many boards don't support Mac properly?
Its mostly windows keys because that is the majority of users, blank would look weird with other legend keys around it, and also most manufactures already have the tooling for windows keys.

Offline chicken

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #496 on: Sun, 29 March 2015, 12:25:11 »
Unpopular opinion, I think, is that we don't need so many windows keys, esp in group buys. A lot of folks use Mac, Linux, Unix, etc. The hegemony of win/menu pairings is frustrating. Let's have some other keys in the mix!

(Seriously, I know the windows keys shortcuts are useful for many, but who wants the windows logo on their keyboard? Is windows so lovely? )

It would probably be just as well if they just made them blank. Might it be because so many boards don't support
  Mac properly?
Its mostly windows keys because that is the majority of users, blank would look weird with other legend keys around it, and also most manufactures already have the tooling for windows keys.

Yeah, windows is allot more common than other operating systems, so companies cater to the masses

Offline nubbinator

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #497 on: Sun, 29 March 2015, 12:49:54 »
The 456 and 356 Korean keyboards are overhyped and overpriced.  $500 on a custom keyboard is already a **** ton of money, but spending $1k+ on a keyboard is just silly, even if you are making 6 figures or more a year.

Offline hwood34

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #498 on: Sun, 29 March 2015, 13:17:48 »
The 456 and 356 Korean keyboards are overhyped and overpriced.  $500 on a custom keyboard is already a **** ton of money, but spending $1k+ on a keyboard is just silly, even if you are making 6 figures or more a year.
who's spending more that $1k on a 456? or plenty of 356 for that matter
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Offline nubbinator

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Re: Unpopular Keyboard Opinions
« Reply #499 on: Sun, 29 March 2015, 13:19:31 »
The 456 and 356 Korean keyboards are overhyped and overpriced.  $500 on a custom keyboard is already a **** ton of money, but spending $1k+ on a keyboard is just silly, even if you are making 6 figures or more a year.
who's spending more that $1k on a 456? or plenty of 356 for that matter

Someone apparently.  And I've seen people appraise some of those keyboards north of $1k in the price check thread.  It might have been due to color, but still.