Tactile Green Alps?

[nubbinator]

I just got a Xerox Docutech 135 keyboard that I won off eBay (I'll get the exact keyboard model number later).  Auction pic of the keyboard:



When I popped a cap, I saw Green sliders.  At first I was disappointed, then I noticed something odd.  The green of the sliders is an almost neon green and the housing doesn't have an LED cutout like the SKCL Green Alps do.  While pressing it, it didn't feel linear like the Greens I've used do either.  It felt a little tactile, but not extremely noticeably so.  Wondering what I got, I popped the switch open, and spotted that the switches were mounted upside down and that there was a tactile leaf in it similar to Orange Alps and Salmon Alps.  The caps is a Yellow Alps and the top are those funky green half sized Alps.

I'll get pictures up later, but has anyone seen these before or had any experience with them?  The housing is an Alps housing with Alps on it, so I know that they're not clones.

[nubbinator]

I don't have a proper lightbox and I'm too lazy to shoot with a tripod, so you'll have to pardon the pic quality.

[jacobolus]

Very interesting. These switches don’t have the little slits, so they’re what Daniel Beardsmore calls “bamboo” (i.e. not as good as “pine” which has the slits) SKCM switches. Along the lines of later white or black Alps switches.

What kind of switchplate do they have? I assume the complicated short white kind?

What do these switches feel like? How do you find they compare to salmon or black Alps switches?

Looks like the green compact ones at the top are the standard SKCL green color. I assume they have a tall gray switchplate inside?

I think the Xerox keyboard here is from the mid-1990s sometime, right?

[exitfire401]

I don't have a proper lightbox and I'm too lazy to shoot with a tripod, so you'll have to pardon the pic quality.

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

Show Image

I don't know what these are, but I want them haha.

[nubbinator]

Very interesting. These switches don’t have the little slits, so they’re what Daniel Beardsmore calls “bamboo” (i.e. not as good as “pine” which has the slits) SKCM switches. Along the lines of later white or black Alps switches.

They have little slits at the top if that's what he's referencing.  I'd need a side to side picture of "pine" vs "bamboo" to tell you.

Just looked it up again.  I'd have to take the switch apart to say.

What kind of switchplate do they have? I assume the complicated short white kind?

It appears to be the short plate.  I'd have to desolder it and get a closer look to say for certain, but it appears that there is a small gap at the bottom.

What do these switches feel like? How do you find they compare to salmon or black Alps switches?

I don't have any Salmon on me, so I can't compare, but there are way better than what I remember Blacks being like, even when cleaned and lubed.  It's a pretty strong bump right at the top, almost like a Clear bump.

Looks like the green compact ones at the top are the standard SKCL green color. I assume they have a tall gray switchplate inside?

It would appear so, but it's so crowded that I couldn't tell you without desoldering.

I think the Xerox keyboard here is from the mid-1990s sometime, right?

Based on the numbers following the manufactured line on the label, I'd assume June 1995, but it could have been as early as 1990 since the printer it was paired with came out in 1991.

[jacobolus]

Very interesting. These switches don’t have the little slits, so they’re what Daniel Beardsmore calls “bamboo” (i.e. not as good as “pine” which has the slits) SKCM switches. Along the lines of later white or black Alps switches.

They have little slits at the top if that's what he's referencing.  I'd need a side to side picture of "pine" vs "bamboo" to tell you.

Just looked it up again.  I'd have to take the switch apart to say.

No, you can see the lack of “slits” directly in your picture:


Personally I’ve never tried any “bamboo” switches, so I have no idea what the differences are with the earlier “pine” versions.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Pine/bamboo is from MouseFan:

http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/alpsk.htm

It's nothing to do with me. His suggestion appears to be that the slits form tabs that absorb the upstroke from the slider and reduce the sound.

We still need a photo of the switchplate as, per the corresponding topic at Deskthority, Alps SKCMAT has greatly reduced pretravel, so the switchplate should be a different design just as the tactile leaf is a different design.

[jacobolus]

Where is that Alps 1994 catalog? Is there a scan of the relevant page anywhere?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

There was a colour original and a PDF of it, as well as photocopies, circulating in the Japanese community. Apparently they've all disappeared, and Sandy's photocopy is all that's left. I only have the photos I posted over at DT.

[jacobolus]

Ah cool, hadn’t seen that thread. For reference:






Apparently what we’ve all been calling “cream” switches, that Alps catalog calls “ivory”.

That force curve for the green switches is pretty similar to the feel of brown Alps switches. It would be really nice to see Alps catalogs from circa 1988 and circa 1990. (Or really as many as possible.)

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Alps catalogues are like gold dust. Currently no-one is known to have an original, and only one has ever been seen.

Interesting point about brown Alps. The tactile leaf in brown Alps is a lot like the one in tactile green Alps. It makes me wonder now if Alps deliberately wanted it tio be that shape in brown Alps (to get that specific feel) or whether the change in leaf shape was done to improve the feel. Clearly someone wanted to keep the feel of brown Alps around by retaining the shape of the tactile leaf.

Ivory is a better name for the colour in question, but since everyone calls it cream, I didn't rename the cream Alps switches.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Wait, you two (nubbinator and jacobolus) are both in CA! You can actually meet up and compare the green and brown switches!

[Daniel Beardsmore]

That force curve for the green switches is pretty similar to the feel of brown Alps switches.

BTW, your brown Alps switches are the normal kind, right, with the black plastic plate that holds the tactile leaf? Not these ones with the regular tactile leaf?

http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/tipandtech/122939

[dorkvader]

Wait, you two (nubbinator and jacobolus) are both in CA! You can actually meet up and compare the green and brown switches!

CA is a big place: SF & orange county are like 700 km apart. Bit of a long way for jacobolus to bike.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Don't they have trains in California?

[jacobolus]

BTW, your brown Alps switches are the normal kind, right, with the black plastic plate that holds the tactile leaf?

That’s correct

Not these ones with the regular tactile leaf? http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/tipandtech/122939

What keyboard is that?

[jacobolus]

Don't they have trains in California?

Not really, no.

[jacobolus]

Wait, you two (nubbinator and jacobolus) are both in CA! You can actually meet up and compare the green and brown switches!

I actually ordered one of these Xerox thingies on ebay, because nubbinator's description made me curious. (Gave the seller $60 shipped, which is probably more than I should have spent for it, but whatever.) So I’ll be able to compare them directly in a few days.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Not only do I work right next to a main line railway, but it's one that still has screaming diesel locomotives in service (HST with Paxman 12VP185 diesel engines — not as good as the 12RP200L though apparently).

After battling with KBDMania's sign-up form I am now told that "\[I\] have entered an ID that cannot be used before Jul 28, 2014", so I can't even PM the guy yet to find out what keyboard is depicted. If I remember (I even had a dream about how many tabs I have open in Firefox) I will try to find out from him (or her, for all I know).

[jacobolus]

To be more precise: they do have trains in CA, but they’re expensive, slow, run infrequently, and don’t really take you where you want to go. At least in the SF bay area there’s a somewhat reasonable commuter rail/subway network, which combined with buses mostly covers everything. It’s still very slow compared to driving most of the time though.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

If it's some consolation, here's a service in the UK going horribly wrong:

[Daniel Beardsmore]

BTW, the little switches used for the function keys (for which nobody knows the part numbers) were not in the 1994 Alps catalogue. The bamboo SKCMAT switches imply 1993 or later. The label on the back suggests a production date of 1995.

It would be nice to get clearer idea of when this was made, such as the date on the controller chip.

[nubbinator]

Here's all the info from the board I can give:

- Alps brand board, PWB 820-0230 Rev. B,  TW-9894V-0, KC-15, 1795

Now for the chips.  The one I believe is the controller is a Xerox brand chip, but here's all of them and all the info on them:

- Xerox 341-0313 C B29F, P8048AH, Mask Work Protection Copyright 1977 L5130256

- AMD AM26LS31PC, 9508FER T

- Texas Instruments Philippines 518BS, SN74159N

- Motorola SN74LS03N, XAB9517

Hope something there helps with better pinpointing the date.  And the commas denote either new lines or breaks in the letters/numbers in the case of the Alps info.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

So it's looking like 1995 indeed.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

BTW, that mouse is optical:

http://www.oldmouse.com/mouse/xerox/star8010variant.shtml

Apparently it's a myth that the Xerox Star optical mouse required a pattern grid to track — it would just about work even on blue jeans.

http://www.oldmouse.com/mouse/xerox/star8010.shtml
http://www.oldmouse.com/articles/xerox/messages.shtml

[jacobolus]

Nubbinator: You didn’t mention the awesome feet on the bottom of this keyboard!

Also, I really like the Omron D2F-01-12 mouse button switches in the included optimal mouse. (I think this is among the earliest optical mice ever produced. It plugs into the back of the keyboard and then the keyboard has a channel built into the bottom to route the cable out one side or the other.)

[jacobolus]

Who bought this one?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/131257824213?orig_cvip=true

Whoever it was, let us know what you think when it arrives. :-)

[ebacho]

Are these the same board? http://www.ebay.com/itm/XEROX-6085-WORKSTATION-KEY-BOARD-BRAND-NEW-IN-ORIGINAL-PACKAGING-/301179674295?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item461fb51eb7

Seems a bit pricey but it says 2 sold already.  I'm a sucker for stuff like this, but was wondering whether the switches would be worth it or not.

[nubbinator]

Definitely not worth it at $180, IMO.  If you're more interesting in the rarity factor and care about the condition, it may be worth it.

[jacobolus]

I got another of these boards from 'elecplus', this time in much worse condition: there's a lot of grit inside all the switches and they're very scratchy, and a few missing keycaps.

But anyway, this second one is a "pine" top housing. i.e. with the little slits.

So that implies that Alps was actually making these for some amount of time, across the "slits"->"no slits" transition. [Also worth noting: the "bamboo" version is "assembled in Mexico", whereas the "pine" version is "made in USA"]

Daniel: I desoldered the first board and I'll take some pictures of the switch internals and the keyboard labels as soon as I have some time in good light (hopefully tomorrow). As soon as I’m able to get down to HaaTa’s place I’ll make some force curve measurements of these and other tactile Alps switches (ivory, brown, orange, salmon, and maybe black, so everyone can see a comparison).

One interesting note: the "SKCL compact" half-width switches at the top use a short white switchplate.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Well, slits disappeared around 1993, and SKCM Green appears in the 1994 catalogue.

It would seem that green followed on from brown. We know that the tactile companion to blue was cream (from a photo of part of a catalogue) but we don't have much in the way of years on that. Someone was arguing that orange, salmon and black followed each other, and that the overlap was due to stock levels, but MouseFan's switch table completely contradicts this:

http://www7.ocn.ne.jp/~hisao/alpsk.htm

Unfortunately we don't have a listing of all the keyboards whose dates provide the evidence for that table, and he has made one major correction to it already.

From his table, you would think that orange followed on from brown ("tea"), but my suspicion is that green followed on from brown, and that orange followed tactile cream, which is one of a number of switches not included in the table.

 I also e-mailed the Korean chap with the photo of the brown tactile switches with "normal" tactile leaves, to ask what keyboard is depicted, etc; no reply yet.

[jacobolus]

It would seem that green followed on from brown.

I doubt it. Brown is much much stiffer.

We know that the tactile companion to blue was cream (from a photo of part of a catalogue) but we don't have much in the way of years on that. Someone was arguing that orange, salmon and black followed each other, and that the overlap was due to stock levels, but MouseFan's switch table completely contradicts this:

I was arguing that. I’m still pretty convinced that the order for light-to-medium-weight tactile switches went ivory -> orange (gray switchplate) -> orange (tall white switchplate) -> salmon (short white switchplate) -> "pine" black -> "bamboo" black, with each progression being one of replacement rather than new product lines. I think both the brown and tactile green switches are separate (and not too closely related to each-other).

I’m skeptical about mousefan's chart. It doesn’t provide much hard evidence about a lot of the dates on it. I wonder if someone confused copyright dates on PCBs (or similar) for manufacture dates.

[Unfortunately I don’t see any explicit dates on or inside these Xerox keyboards.]

I also e-mailed the Korean chap with the photo of the brown tactile switches with "normal" tactile leaves, to ask what keyboard is depicted, etc; no reply yet.

Also does he know what those feel like?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I was surprised how stiff salmon Alps is (in an Apple M0116 that was indistinguishable from new), while everyone else compares them with MX brown. I have a white Alps keyboard—in nice condition—that's so stiff I gave up with it. Alps switches are infamous for drastic changes in feel for, often, no visible reason. The problem with all the rare colours is that there are too few examples to reach a consensus on feel. I don't think we'll get a useful description of brown switches from a Korean — it's hard enough describing them in your own language. Of course, it hangs on whether I ever get a reply at all.

There is generally an agreement that white is stiffer than blue, but they're specified identically. Even having the specification doesn't provide assurance, although whole catalogues (which I don't have for blue+ivory, just a little photo or scan or something — it's extremely hard to communicate with alps.tw solely through Google Translate) would at least give you the known switches for a year and indicate which switches were sold concurrently.

For the Xerox keyboards, as I recall, you don't even have dates on the chips, am I correct?

Sandy doesn't like me doubting MouseFan's expertise ; ) But yes, I do consider it critical that as much information be reported as possible, so that other people can verify for themselves. I don't have any access to MouseFan though — he's a shadowy and mysterious figure.

This is the only list I've started to put together with regards keyboards, and I've tried to be detailed and provide references, although even what little is there already needs a lot of work:

http://deskthority.net/wiki/Keyboards_and_switches_by_year

It's got a very, very long way to go before it's actually useful for anything, though!

[jacobolus]

I was surprised how stiff salmon Alps is (in an Apple M0116 that was indistinguishable from new), while everyone else compares them with MX brown. I have a white Alps keyboard—in nice condition—that's so stiff I gave up with it.

How “scratchy” does the salmon switch feel as you press it? If you hold your ear up does it sounds like there’s a lot of friction? I suppose it’s possible that there’s a stiffer-than-usual batch of those switches, but I personally don’t find them to be particularly stiff. (I have a replacement Apple portable keyboard that seems to be basically new, and I wouldn’t describe the switches as particularly stiff. Pretty similar to orange Alps, I’d say.

There is generally an agreement that white is stiffer than blue,

The white switches definitely have a stiffer spring, and also have a stiffer click leaf.

As soon as I can get some force curves measured (I’ll try to measure the best-condition switch of each type I can find), the way the switches all feel should be a bit easier to describe.

For the Xerox keyboards, as I recall, you don't even have dates on the chips, am I correct?

Which chips are you interested in? I don’t think there are any especially useful dates on them, but maybe you could figure something out based on the part numbers?

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I sold off the M0116 to someone at Deskthority, which is a pity as I wasn't done with it (I thought I was, but I wasn't).

I was disappointed with how stiff the switches were, but as I didn't have an iMate, I was unable to connect it up and use it for real. They weren't scratchy or prone to binding, just stiff.

You can see how pristine the switches were though:



I think white the dots on the plate are just paint reflections (it's textured paint), as it was completely spotless inside. The scratches on the switch shell are from me opening it up.

It's common for chips to have the week of manufacture as four digits, e.g. 8913 for 13th week in 1989. They don't all, but many do.

What would be interesting with Alps switches is to measure them with the click/tactile leaf removed, as then you can measure the spring and estimate the effect of the leaf. Blue Alps with the click leaf removed is quite soft — it's been so long since I tried it that I forget how close it comes to Cherry MX red.

[jacobolus]

What would be interesting with Alps switches is to measure them with the click/tactile leaf removed, as then you can measure the spring and estimate the effect of the leaf. Blue Alps with the click leaf removed is quite soft — it's been so long since I tried it that I forget how close it comes to Cherry MX red.

The plan is to measure them:
(1) as they arrived
(2) with click/tactile leaf removed (if applicable)
(3) with switchplate removed
(4) with both leaves removed
(5) just the bare spring outside the switch

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I take it HaaTa's machine is ready now? Last I heard, it still had a long way to go.

[jacobolus]

It’s ... sorta ready. It can’t perfectly measure the return stroke, and there’s a lot of manual work involved in measuring stuff with it. Also I still need to do a bunch of work on the software side to generate prettier force curves and statistics.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Well, don't rush it on my account. Besides, my ghost would still be interested in the results even if the only way he could respond back to you is by Ouija board.

[jacobolus]

Oh wait..

On these Xerox boards, the Made in USA one (switches with slits) has "Manufactured: 1092AL" on the back.
The Assembled in Mexico (no slits) has "Manufactured: AL. 9701"

So actually, I think that’s supposed to be August 1992 and January 1997, respectively.

Nubbinator’s picture upthread shows 695AL: June 1995.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

1997? Wow, I would be impressed if they were still being made that late on. Of course, the switches may have been old stock by then.

The trick is to compare those dates with the dates on the chips and see if you see 91xx/92xx/93xx and 96xx/97xx/98xx production dates on them.

From my ca. 1984 Neve keyboard:

[jacobolus]

Chips on the USA board have: KKJB9213, XXAB9225, 9105 U25.
On the Mexico board: KEY9602, XAA9602, 9552 U68.

Seems consistent with the dates on the back of the case. The corresponding numbers on Nubbinator’s chips are all 95xx.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Looks like the Uxx chips have a longer shelf life : )

It looks like by the 1997 one, production rates are fairly slow. The chip dates of 1996 are more consistent with the last known sightings of complicated Alps according to MouseFan (except for yellow, and we're not clear on those).

These green ones have had a long production life considering just how ridiculously rare they are.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

But anyway, this second one is a "pine" top housing. i.e. with the little slits.

Do these have the Alps logo on? And I presume they're still short white switchplate?

I first saw these switches in the Dokiu Saver, of which the last and final auction attempt was:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271518744674?orig_cvip=true

(I've archived the pictures for once they vanish off eBay.)

Those are pine and appear to have the Alps logo on them. I was uncertain whether he really had used the mystery switch, but it's now clear that he has, as the slider colour is the same.

[fohat.digs]

From my ca. 1984 Neve keyboard:

(Attachment Link)

That cable is a lovely thing, and I am generally immune to cleanliness with regard to keyboards bought used.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

The cable in the photo is all there is. I cut the rest off and binned it. It was covered in some revolting slime, like a really long rotten banana. I saved the plug, though.