Author Topic: ISO layout supporters: Defend it. (Read 14878 times)

dante · « **on:** Sat, 02 March 2013, 18:30:59 »

I'm interested in those who are staunch supporters of the ISO layout: Why are you holding out from switching to another?

nullstring · « **Reply #1 on:** Sat, 02 March 2013, 18:34:14 »

Errrr... I'm guessing it's just whatever you're used to.
Why are some ANSI supports unwilling to use any ISO boards? (such as myself)
For me, I can't see any usefulness of the vertical enter key.. but I've never really tried to see any either.

So, before you ask others to depend ISO. Why don't you defend ANSI?

dante · « **Reply #2 on:** Sat, 02 March 2013, 18:35:51 »

I guess it comes down to - if ISO has any advantages that other layouts don't.

swagpiratex · « **Reply #3 on:** Sat, 02 March 2013, 18:40:24 »

I still like ISO, because of the huge enter key. It was what my keyboards had when I was a kid growing up (born 1988)

davkol · « **Reply #4 on:** Sat, 02 March 2013, 18:48:29 »

ISO layout has an extra key because of national alphabet extensions (AFAIK e.g. Nordic layouts depend on it a lot).

For me, vertical Enter is more comfortable when doing stuff in TeX, due to the backslash key on home row (it should be noted that I use US Colemak). Obviously, I prefer ANSI for other purposes, though.

Physical ISO layout makes it easier to use some wide layout mod (e.g. DreymaR's wide Colemak mod). I'd definitely switch to something like that because it feels much more comfortable than just ordinary staggered QWERTY... if I weren't about to completely convert to matrix keyboards.

Lighthouse1 · « **Reply #5 on:** Sat, 02 March 2013, 18:51:29 »

I use both as happened to have one of each. I like the layout of the ISO more, I think it comes down to what you have used all the time. Plus ANSI doesn't have an easy to access \ key when you use it with a UK layout.

I don't see what the fuss is about really. It's a shame you can't always get the nicest keys for ISO but the recent group buys have catered for that so now my home board will look good as well as be good to type on.

Findecanor · « **Reply #6 on:** Sat, 02 March 2013, 19:30:58 »

I am not using English-ISO, I am using Swedish layout, which just happens to be an ISO layout.

As a Swede and as a programmer by profession, I need easy access to all letters in the Swedish alphabet (three more than in English) and to all symbols and dead-keys that are available in the Swedish layout under Windows . I am used to this layout and I know all symbols on Shift and Alt Gr without looking.
That is what is important with the layout, not the shape of the Return key. I am pretty sure that I could adapt to use a horizontal Return.

Soarer · « **Reply #7 on:** Sat, 02 March 2013, 19:52:28 »

I dunno... why should we defend ISO?!

ANSI proponents always say ISO left Shift is too far away, even though it's only as far as right Shift is.

Yet they also say Enter is within easy pinky reach, even though it's further than any Shift.

ISO is easy to defend for a programmer - two more symbols within reach of the home keys. 'Nuff said.

Piro · « **Reply #8 on:** Thu, 07 March 2013, 08:26:56 »

My keyboard layout is designed around it, shifting my right hand over one place. So, basically I gain another key, and a more useful layout around the right hand.

hargon · « **Reply #9 on:** Mon, 18 March 2013, 10:50:46 »

I only "support" ISO, because the EU-ISO keyboards have one additional key - and i need that key. If there were a 105 key ANSI layout i would have no problem switching between the layouts. Maybe this isn't just me but many (non-english) european customers.

phetto · « **Reply #10 on:** Mon, 18 March 2013, 10:55:46 »

Quote from: Findecanor on Sat, 02 March 2013, 19:30:58

I am not using English-ISO, I am using Swedish layout, which just happens to be an ISO layout.

^ this, since we have 3 more letters.

ksm123 · « **Reply #11 on:** Mon, 18 March 2013, 13:49:52 »

For me it is pretty simple, I grew up with ANSI layout.

If I learned to type (not basic letter block, but all symbols programmer need) on ISO keyboard I would use ISO layout, but I learned on ANSI.
For me preferred keyboard layout is like religion, at first it is a matter of where you were born, and after that most of users do not care to accustom themselves with new one.

Tym · « **Reply #12 on:** Mon, 18 March 2013, 13:54:15 »

Grew up with the big F*ck off enter key and i love it

Always miss the smaller one D;

davkol · « **Reply #13 on:** Mon, 18 March 2013, 14:23:34 »

Quote from: ksm123 on Mon, 18 March 2013, 13:49:52

For me it is pretty simple, I grew up with ANSI layout.

If I learned to type (not basic letter block, but all symbols programmer need) on ISO keyboard I would use ISO layout, but I learned on ANSI.
For me preferred keyboard layout is like religion, at first it is a matter of where you were born, and after that most of users do not care to accustom themselves with new one.

Nevertheless, some people convert to a different religion or yet better become atheists. I guess it would be more suitable to compare ANSI/ISO to left-/right-hand traffic.

jdcarpe · « **Reply #14 on:** Mon, 18 March 2013, 14:38:40 »

Except that it is sort of difficult to drive on the left side of the road, with a car that has the steering wheel on the left side. The whole traffic system is set up against you. However, if you want to change from an ISO keyboard to ANSI, you just plug it in and start banging away. In those rare occasions you need to type a special character that is not mapped to a key, you just have to press a combination of keys to produce that character.

ksm123 · « **Reply #15 on:** Mon, 18 March 2013, 14:58:05 »

@davkol:
Some of us convert to vintage keyboards (most Buckling Spring 122 key keyboards are ISO).
Some of us choose ANSI HHKB despite being raised in ISO region.

And even some of us leave IOS/ANSI discussion and take ergonomic way (ErgoDox anyone)?

davkol · « **Reply #16 on:** Mon, 18 March 2013, 15:34:11 »

Funny you mention it. My secondary keyboard is TypeMatrix.

william · « **Reply #17 on:** Mon, 25 March 2013, 11:58:57 »

i find it baffling that people who are so enthusiastic and knowledgable about keyboards still use staggered layouts at all.

bazemk1979 · « **Reply #18 on:** Mon, 25 March 2013, 21:45:23 »

Defend that Enter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! just don't chew on it, size might be hazardous

keymaster · « **Reply #19 on:** Mon, 25 March 2013, 21:51:41 »

ANSI vs ISO reminds me of cut vs uncut

)

bazemk1979 · « **Reply #20 on:** Mon, 25 March 2013, 21:53:15 »

Quote from: keymaster on Mon, 25 March 2013, 21:51:41

ANSI vs ISO reminds me of cut vs uncut )

Circumcised? $:-\$

Findecanor · « **Reply #21 on:** Tue, 26 March 2013, 14:38:53 »

Quote from: keymaster on Mon, 25 March 2013, 21:51:41

ANSI vs ISO reminds me of cut vs uncut )

Not a valid comparison. None of ISO or ANSI is better than the other, while uncut is clearly superior to cut.

mbc · « **Reply #22 on:** Tue, 26 March 2013, 14:41:55 »

Quote from: Findecanor on Tue, 26 March 2013, 14:38:53

Quote from: keymaster on Mon, 25 March 2013, 21:51:41
ANSI vs ISO reminds me of cut vs uncut )
Not a valid comparison. None of ISO or ANSI is better than the other, while uncut is clearly superior to cut.

Not a valid statement. With most films even the trailer isn't cut enough

ksm123 · « **Reply #23 on:** Thu, 28 March 2013, 12:58:08 »

Quote from: william on Mon, 25 March 2013, 11:58:57

i find it baffling that people who are so enthusiastic and knowledgable about keyboards still use staggered layouts at all.

I would call it a matter of availability.
Mechanical non staggered keyboards are hard to get Europe. The only two I can name from top of my head are Kinesis Advantage and Maltron, their prices are outrageous.
We will have to wait until someone in China streamline ErgoDox for mass manufacture.

davkol · « **Reply #24 on:** Thu, 28 March 2013, 14:48:28 »

Nah, just look at all those POS terminals.

bazemk1979 · « **Reply #25 on:** Fri, 29 March 2013, 17:53:57 »

Quote from: davkol on Thu, 28 March 2013, 14:48:28

Nah, just look at all those POS terminals.

its called vintage, nothing wrong with it, and you never need new keycaps with quality as IBM/Lexmark/Unicomp....

davkol · « **Reply #26 on:** Mon, 01 April 2013, 13:42:02 »

I wouldn't call a brand new 112key elcom I bought last summer vintage, but nevermind...

tipo33 · « **Reply #27 on:** Sun, 21 April 2013, 12:11:16 »

I prefer ISO because it is easier to type in cyrillic. Not a problem for most people, but it is the only reason I will defend ISO as much as I do.

SP534 · « **Reply #28 on:** Sun, 21 April 2013, 12:45:20 »

Basically it's what I've been working on all my life, and I've grown to love it. Where's the advantage to me of losing a key, and losing that beautiful return key?
I mean, if there was advantages it would be something I could consider sure, but it's like a downgrade to go from ISO to ANSI.

gtarget · « **Reply #29 on:** Thu, 25 April 2013, 15:34:51 »

I like it for the extra key, and I plan to use that with the GH60 to have an ISO HHKB without having a small backspace. I'm going to move the `~ key to the right of the left shift.

And I spent some time in Europe working on software - had to get used to the ISO layout (I still sometimes accidentally hit the long enter key).

Findecanor · « **Reply #30 on:** Thu, 25 April 2013, 16:25:55 »

Quote from: gtarget on Thu, 25 April 2013, 15:34:51

I like it for the extra key, and I plan to use that with the GH60 to have an ISO HHKB without having a small backspace.

Someone said "ISO HHKB"?

I am building this keyboard, having taken the opposite choices of yours (if I understand correctly).
The layout is Swedish with a short left Shift key and another symbol key next to it, but the Return key is horizontal, Backspace is over Return and Delete is over Backspace like on the HHKB. The legends are not very visible in this picture because they are engraved and strong sunlight is hitting them from the wrong angle...

The plate is a modified Phantom (PHWIN) plate, keycaps from WASD Keyboards. The build is on hold for now, will prioritize my Phantom which is still not done.

BTW, if you use a Phantom plate without a PCB, then you must glue horizontal stops around some switches to keep them from moving sideways. The Caps Lock key and the Space Bar need this mod, and my modified plate needed it in a few more...

GeorgeStorm · « **Reply #31 on:** Thu, 25 April 2013, 16:37:50 »

I switched to ANSI when I started getting interested in keyboards, but the main reason for doing so was because there are fewer ISO keyboards, and especially fewer ISO custom keycaps (although that seems to be changing)
If I could switch my current keyboards for ISO versions without any other loss etc then I'd be happy to

BimboBB · « **Reply #32 on:** Fri, 26 April 2013, 03:08:55 »

its always cool to have as much variety as possible. monoculture is boring as hell....mkäy.

davkol · « **Reply #33 on:** Fri, 26 April 2013, 04:02:44 »

Quote from: BimboBB on Fri, 26 April 2013, 03:08:55

its always cool to have as much variety as possible. monoculture is boring as hell....mkäy.

Oh wait, those are standards. It's better to have less of them, even though it doesn't work like that in the end.

Barbastruzzolo · « **Reply #34 on:** Sun, 28 April 2013, 05:31:46 »

With big buttons comes great power.
I love smashing my ISO enter key and make it resound all over the place.
It's like taming a wild beast!

Ok, I'm gone too far

)

Mandolin · « **Reply #35 on:** Mon, 29 April 2013, 05:14:56 »

I was born with spanish iso, I even have something along what I think as a signature...
I can't get used to ansi, the enter key is for sissy fingers. I like my enter big and where I cannot loose it from sight.

stingrae · « **Reply #36 on:** Thu, 02 May 2013, 03:40:56 »

Can we not hate both but prefer ansi because the " position actually makes sense and it's harder to accidently hit backspace (atleast for my mother lol).

Why hate both? Lack of useful symbol placement (surely degree is more important than(`), lack of thumb usage and poor backspace placement...

Grim Fandango · « **Reply #37 on:** Thu, 02 May 2013, 04:33:39 »

I live in Holland. Over here we have the pleasure of having different common keyboard layout , differing from ANSI to ISO and strange hybrids. The most common ones are the Dutch layout and something they call US international, which is the same most of the time, but sometimes suddenly ISO, and changes only some of the symbols around. Pointless imo.

Personally I avoid ISO like the plague.

teroteki · « **Reply #38 on:** Wed, 22 May 2013, 21:11:28 »

I'd love to try out more keyboards so I may be forced to switch from ISO to ANSI...

Having that extra key right next to the modifiers is an absolute godsend for custom hotkeys! Not sure how I'd cope without it.

Masterchief79 · « **Reply #39 on:** Thu, 23 May 2013, 19:58:11 »

Personally (as a German) I couldn't live without a 2-row Enter and a big backspace. I tried a keyboard once which had a small backspace and a big fat enter - so horrible xD
Also, I have taught myself 10-finger-writing on this layout, and it was hard enough to do so and cost about 3 years - there's just no point to switch to another one.

mauri · « **Reply #40 on:** Fri, 24 May 2013, 04:49:06 »

Quote from: Masterchief79 on Thu, 23 May 2013, 19:58:11

Personally (as a German) I couldn't live without a 2-row Enter and a big backspace. I tried a keyboard once which had a small backspace and a big fat enter - so horrible xD
Also, I have taught myself 10-finger-writing on this layout, and it was hard enough to do so and cost about 3 years - there's just no point to switch to another one.

Thank god for the gh60, I'm not sure if there even are 60% boards with iso layout. Of course I'd give my left nut for iso hhkb but for now cherry has to cut it ^^

naokira · « **Reply #41 on:** Fri, 24 May 2013, 05:08:45 »

I didn't have the chance to use an ISO layout but I really do like dat enter key (grew up with big enters), but i can't live with a shorter left shift

BimboBB · « **Reply #42 on:** Fri, 24 May 2013, 05:45:04 »

its just the habit.

ergonomic wise.....small left shift is on the same position as right shift. So people telling they cant reach the small left shift, should have the same problem with right shift. That isnt the case....so either its just bollocks or they have different sized pinky fingers.

mauri · « **Reply #43 on:** Fri, 24 May 2013, 06:17:24 »

Quote from: BimboBB on Fri, 24 May 2013, 05:45:04

its just the habit.

ergonomic wise.....small left shift is on the same position as right shift. So people telling they cant reach the small left shift, should have the same problem with right shift. That isnt the case....so either its just bollocks or they have different sized pinky fingers.

There are 2 controls yet I rarely use the right side ctrl

Only time I'll use the right shift is when my left hand is occupied

Halvar · « **Reply #44 on:** Fri, 24 May 2013, 07:57:25 »

For Europeans like me who use national layouts, there is no discussion about this. The national layouts are ISO-only, and for typing texts it doesn't make any sense for us to use an American layout that doesn't have some of the characters that we need.

From my perspective, there are good reasons, too, why the national layouts were based on ISO instead of ANSI in the first place. For languages with more characters, the additional key makes sense, but even more the clear concept of the AltGr key that has no other function than to open a new layer of characters. And these characters are printed on the lower right part of the key legend.

The German layout could be better of course, and as a programmer I have to use AltGr far too much, but that's another story ...

Johan · « **Reply #45 on:** Fri, 24 May 2013, 08:42:43 »

I grew up with an Ansi keyboard, but then my family moved back to sweden so I got used to the ISO layout. I'm not to bother to order an ansi board even if i might type slightly faster/more properly on one because shipping is an ass, and the enter keys are pretty sweet, I think I would actually enjoy a terminal keyboard as the enter key looks so satisfying. The small shift key is kinda handy for starcraft as I can bind the < key to patrol.

pasph · « **Reply #46 on:** Fri, 24 May 2013, 09:59:35 »

Simply with my national layout i feel at home, MY home

IvanIvanovich · « **Reply #47 on:** Fri, 24 May 2013, 10:13:44 »

JIS layout is much smarter than ISO, where they place the extra key as subtract from the much larger right shift, and also since that extra character is a punctuation on most layouts, it makes sense if it was where the rest of the punctuation is grouped on the right side. I move that all ISO keyboards should be replaced with JIS for a better tomorrow.

Findecanor · « **Reply #48 on:** Fri, 24 May 2013, 16:18:03 »

JIS also has a small Backspace and various additional keys on the bottom row for Japanese. These keyboards often have small Space bars in the exact centre of the bottom row. Personally, I hit the Space Bar right below 'N' and 'M' where on a JIS keyboard there would be a Kana key.

mauri · « **Reply #49 on:** Sat, 25 May 2013, 07:46:32 »

Quote from: IvanIvanovich on Fri, 24 May 2013, 10:13:44

JIS layout is much smarter than ISO, where they place the extra key as subtract from the much larger right shift, and also since that extra character is a punctuation on most layouts, it makes sense if it was where the rest of the punctuation is grouped on the right side. I move that all ISO keyboards should be replaced with JIS for a better tomorrow.

Burn the false prophet

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Author Topic: ISO layout supporters: Defend it. (Read 14878 times)