Mini mechanical keyboard conversion/kitbash

[chimera15]

I'm currently working on trying to convert a btc-5100c membrane keyboard to white/blue alps switches.  It involves a lot of soldering.  But it's possible because it uses a circuit board for it's switches unlike most rubber dome keyboards.  It got me thinking if anyone else knows of other mini keyboards that use circuit boards that have a simple two contact system.  Either that, or a mini keyboard that might have alps switches, not necessarily white other than the siig minitouch that's easily found and under $50.

I looked at cherries and their switches use 4 contacts, so i'm not sure exactly how you would rewire them to work with alps.  There are no mini clicky blue mx or other cherry keyboards I know of.  

hhk's use a flexible film that would be very difficult.

Maybe something like the old fujitsu keyboards that worked with their early tablets? Anyone taken apart one of those?  You can usually find them for like $10 on ebay.

I'm trying to build or find a mini mechanical clicky that doesn't cost and arm and a leg.  Even $80 for a keyboard is too much imo.

[lowpoly]

Even $80 for a keyboard is too much imo.

I don't think so. Junk keyboards are cheap but this doesn't mean quality boards have to be as well.

[huha]

Good keyboards are somewhat expensive, you'll just have to cope with it.
However, I don't conider $80 to be expensive for a keyboard. I'd love to actually get a small and decent keyboard for this price; at the moment, I'm looking at several options to get a smallish keyboard with clicky switches and it doesn't look like it will cost me under $120.

Cherry switches, by the way, use just two contacts. On the PCB mountable version, there are two auxilliary contacts used for mounting, but they don't serve any purpose. You can get models with integrated LEDs which are powered by those leads. If you're taking switches from keyboards, you'll most likely get ones with a jumper wire between those contacts.

-huha

[itlnstln]

$80 is a fair price.  For me, when it starts getting over $100, it really has to start justifying its price more so than good switches.

[lowpoly]

Cherry switches, by the way, use just two contacts. On the PCB mountable version, there are two auxilliary contacts used for mounting, but they don't serve any purpose. You can get models with integrated LEDs which are powered by those leads. If you're taking switches from keyboards, you'll most likely get ones with a jumper wire between those contacts.

The pcb-mountable versions have two additional plastic pins. Those are in the middle of the bottom of the case.

If a switch has a jumper wire then the two additional contacts are the jumper wire. With a diode it should be the same, the pins of the diode. With an LED the drill pattern is different because the LED contacts are closer together.

It's in the switch .pdf:

http://www.cherry.de/deutsch/schalter_steuerungen/bilder/cherry-switch-keymodule-mx-de.pdf

^^^ That's the german .pdf, the US site is dead due to relaunch or something.

[FKSSR]

I would think that buying the switches would ring up the cost to $80 or more with the price of the membrane keyboard.  Plus there is the amount of time you'd spend working on it...and "time is money..."

[chimera15]

Good keyboards are somewhat expensive, you'll just have to cope with it.
However, I don't conider $80 to be expensive for a keyboard. I'd love to actually get a small and decent keyboard for this price; at the moment, I'm looking at several options to get a smallish keyboard with clicky switches and it doesn't look like it will cost me under $120.

Cherry switches, by the way, use just two contacts. On the PCB mountable version, there are two auxilliary contacts used for mounting, but they don't serve any purpose. You can get models with integrated LEDs which are powered by those leads. If you're taking switches from keyboards, you'll most likely get ones with a jumper wire between those contacts.

-huha

Ah that's interesting to know... I wonder how the alps would match up with a cherry from 4100...hmm I may have to open mine again and look.


$80 is a lot when you want 4 or 5 keyboards.  I use a minimum of 3 computers on a daily basis. I have siig minitouch's for all of them, but sometimes I use 2 or 3 other computers that I would like siigs for but am currently broke.

When you can get standard size alps keyboards for $10-20 if you're not picky for the brand..$80 for a mini is relatively too much if you could with a bit of time convert that standard somehow to a mini.

I can't afford to spend another $200 on keyboards..I want another 3 mini clickies for under $100, preferably under $50.  Unless I want to buy out Bob's supply, which would cost me way over $240, and likely I'd still have to put some work into the boards to make them type like I want.  Mini clickies just simply don't exist anymore for a reasonable price and I've finally given up searching for them.  I mean siig minitouches originally sold for like $40.   I'd rather figure out a way to make them myself if I need them, even if it does take me some time.

The btc conversion is going pretty well.  I finally got one row wired. phew lol.  I'll post picks if I ever get it done.  I'll also be able to control the pitch and spacing of the keys with this board which is something I always wanted to be able to do.  To customize a keyboard to my own hands

[huha]

If a switch has a jumper wire then the two additional contacts are the jumper wire. With a diode it should be the same, the pins of the diode. With an LED the drill pattern is different because the LED contacts are closer together.

Oh, I might have mixed it up. Thanks for pointing this out.

Ah that's interesting to know... I wonder how the alps would match up with a cherry from 4100...hmm I may have to open mine again and look.

If by 4100 you mean the G84-4100, these feature ML modules, which are short-travel keyswitches. They feel quite nice, but as the name implies, key travel is short.

$80 is a lot when you want 4 or 5 keyboards.  I use a minimum of 3 computers on a daily basis. I have siig minitouch's for all of them, but sometimes I use 2 or 3 other computers that I would like siigs for but am currently broke.

You don't have to buy them all at once--I'm also using several keyboards with several computers (although just three computers), but I still need some more keyboards because I don't want to constantly lug around my boards when working at university.
You won't really find inexpensive mechanical keyboards; they just cost a pretty penny to produce, which is quite likely cause for their demise. $80 is not much for a single keyboard, especially not if it's compact; I'm currently looking at my options for getting a compact clicky keyboard, and it's a major hassle to get it for an acceptable price. If all works out as planned, I'll go for a filco tenkeyless which will set me back more than $100 nonetheless, but should still be cheaper than buying a refurbished siig minitouch from the U.S.

When you can get standard size alps keyboards for $10-20 if you're not picky for the brand..$80 for a mini is relatively too much if you could with a bit of time convert that standard somehow to a mini.

I'd love to actually get any mechanical non-linear keyboard for $10-20. Ah well, Europe ...

But have you considered just sawing off everything you don't need and re-connecting the traces? The case will also have to be adjusted, but given you have plenty of time on your hands, this won't be an impossible thing to do.

-huha

[chimera15]

"If by 4100 you mean the G84-4100, these feature ML modules, which are short-travel keyswitches. They feel quite nice, but as the name implies, key travel is short."


No, I mean the physical contacts of the switches, not the function. lol I don't think the feel of them is nice at all either.  I really dislike that keyboard. To me it feels little better than a hhk lite.  My idea was to try to replace those switches directly with alps clickies, or some other clickies from a full sized keyboard you can get cheap,  instead of the non clicky cherry switches.  I suppose now that I know the other two contacts are only a function of a light or something I could do the same thing I'm doing to the btc, but would be nice to find a board that I could just desolder and solder in new clicky switches instead of having to add wire leads and come up with a structure to hold the new switches.

I've considered chopping off a keyboard, but building a case that's functional and reasonable looking is pretty difficult, and tracing the wiring is a pain as well.  Not to mention I wouldn't want to chop off the number pad.  A fully functional mini keyboard has a function key and the ability to turn keys into a keypad and arrow keys.  I need that functionality in a mini or it's no good to me.

There are a lot of alps keyboards for sale on ebay where the seller doesn't even list or know that the keyboard is a clicky or what a clicky is.  If you look for them and know what to look for they're easy to find.  I expect even in Europe.

I'm a student as well.  I simply don't have any money to be spending $80 on a keyboard anymore.  I know it's not a lot relatively in terms of mini keyboards that are currently being produced, especially with hhk pro's being $250+.  If I had any money I would, buy the siigs.  They're the best keyboard I've ever used.  I wasn't saying that relatively it's a lot to new keyboards, but for me, relatively, when you can get alps switch full size mechanical keyboards for $20 easily.  If I can make a mini somehow even if it takes me some time.  It is a ton of difference in money.  I'm not working so every penny is precious, and have a lot of spare time.

I bought 2 siigs at $80 already, and considered it a good deal.  I doubt Bob's supply will last until I have more money to spend.

[keyb_gr]

There are a lot of alps keyboards for sale on ebay where the seller doesn't even list or know that the keyboard is a clicky or what a clicky is.  If you look for them and know what to look for they're easy to find.  I expect even in Europe.

For Germany, it looks pretty much like this:
Model Ms: Not too uncommon, seemingly going for EUR 30+.
Cherrys: The most common types are indeed with linear switches, including cheap NIB samples (both 3000 and 1800 currently). Clicky G80-3000s don't appear too often, but if they do, they don't go for large sums (lately one went for less than 10 EUR). 1000 series boards appear occasionally but are usually linear types, just like the 1501.
Other clicky mechanical boards: No common types I'd be aware of. No Dell Bigfoots, for example. And looking for a diamond in the rough among literally hundreds of ill-described junkboards isn't easy.

[chimera15]

For Germany, it looks pretty much like this:
Model Ms: Not too uncommon, seemingly going for EUR 30+.
Cherrys: The most common types are indeed with linear switches, including cheap NIB samples (both 3000 and 1800 currently). Clicky G80-3000s don't appear too often, but if they do, they don't go for large sums (lately one went for less than 10 EUR). 1000 series boards appear occasionally but are usually linear types, just like the 1501.
Other clicky mechanical boards: No common types I'd be aware of. No Dell Bigfoots, for example. And looking for a diamond in the rough among literally hundreds of ill-described junkboards isn't easy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-ACER-KEYBOARD-6511-WHITE-SLIDERS_W0QQitemZ250139895563QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item250139895563&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

[chimera15]

Actually that one on second look has strange sliders.  Normally there are a lot of acers that use acer sliders which are basically alps clones, which are almost identical, basically the same function and feel, but different case to them.  I just bought this one with blacks:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=360013948503

$20 including shipping, and they would ship to europe.  Search for keyboard+slider. Or there are a lot of sites, especially Japanese that list tons of off brand keyboards that used alps sliders.

[chimera15]

Does anyone know if the original btc 5100 used alps or rubber dome? I see them on ebay every once in a while.

[chimera15]

Ah, nevermind.  THink I found it http://photo.blog.sina.com.cn/photo/3f56f1414527307c15c68#pic

[chimera15]

Here's one with black alps I think for $16.  http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-NMB-Keyboard-RT6251T-BLACK-SLIDERS_W0QQitemZ250189229383QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item250189229383&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A30

Blacks are still clicky aren't they?

I see shipping to Europe is like $50 though.

[chimera15]

I was actually looking on ebay and was finding a bunch of keyboards that no longer are useful, like apple adb keyboards with alps sliders in them going for cheap.  It would be interesting to make a mini from those..pinks and orange alps switches which are tactile but non clicky.

[lowpoly]

Actually that one on second look has strange sliders.  Normally there are a lot of acers that use acer sliders which are basically alps clones, which are almost identical, basically the same function and feel, but different case to them.  I just bought this one with blacks:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=360013948503

$20 including shipping, and they would ship to europe.  Search for keyboard+slider. Or there are a lot of sites, especially Japanese that list tons of off brand keyboards that used alps sliders.

The Acers I have look like Alps but are not. They are membrane boards with a mechanical actuator. Similar to Cherry MY but clicky.

Here's one with black alps I think for $16.  http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-NMB-Keyboard-RT6251T-BLACK-SLIDERS_W0QQitemZ250189229383QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item250189229383&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A30

Blacks are still clicky aren't they?

I see shipping to Europe is like $50 though.

That doesn't look like Alps either, at least to me. The plunger on this board is almost square.

[lowpoly]

Other clicky mechanical boards: No common types I'd be aware of. No Dell Bigfoots, for example. And looking for a diamond in the rough among literally hundreds of ill-described junkboards isn't easy.

Here's a Bigfoot (partly yellowed):

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=280339094883

[chimera15]

Yeah thanks.  I took my acer apart tonight.  Just before I read this message.  I was surprised what I found.  Interesting and works well and feels like an alps, but it mechanically pushes a membrane like a rubber dome, instead of pushing two pieces of metal together.  Hmm..I wonder now if I can use those switches to convert a hhk lite. lol

That might be an awesome solution and wouldn't involve any soldiering.

[chimera15]

Also I found the mod of the MCK-89S to pink alps keyboard, posted indirectly from the alps switch info page. Pretty awesome.

Considering doing this to one of my siigs. lol

http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/mck-89s_PII.html

[lowpoly]

You can remove the switches from the top without disassembling the 'board IIRC.

Converting a HHKB light sounds like a plan.

Are your switches consistent in how they click/feel? Mine aren't but they are old and abused.

[chimera15]

Ahahahahaahahahah!! It works! I used an acer keyswitch to acuate the membrane on a hhk lite! roflol  That's the solution I've been looking for!!! hehehehehehe

I have like 6 hhk lites and lite 2's.  This is gonna be awesome. lol

[chimera15]

You can remove the switches from the top without disassembling the 'board IIRC.

Converting a HHKB light sounds like a plan.

Are your switches consistent in how they click/feel? Mine aren't but they are old and abused.

Yeah I have an almost brand new acer keyboard with white clickies.  They're built exactly like alps switches on the inside except they push down a little white plastic piece onto the membrane.  I think if they're inconsistent you should be able to adjust the little metal leaf in the switch just like an alps fairly easily if these are the same kind of switches that you have.  I noticed that there are at least two different types of acer switches it appears from an online auction I posted earlier.. The kind I have use the same kind of alps plastic switch, but the one I saw on ebay looked more like it bloomed outward.

[lowpoly]

Looking forward to your mod.

The 6312 switch uses the Alps interface. Haven't seen the round type before. Maybe see mouseman's switch page if you can find it.

There were also Acer 'boards with real Alps switches.

[lowpoly]

If you have to make a custom plate to match the switch positions to the HHKB membrane then emachineshop might be something.

[chimera15]

I cut out a place for the switch in the hhk and fit the acer switch in and it works fantastic!! lol 59 to go. lol Gonna have a clicky hhk! The only part left is is hopefully the key caps will fit without much trouble.

[lowpoly]

Nice.

Good choice of keycaps available for the Alps interface.

[chimera15]

Got the home row done.   I decided I'll probably leave the space bar and return key standard since the only keycaps I have for them are much larger.  That emachineshop looks like a useful tool.  I might check them out for some other things if not this.
Have you used them? Are they reasonably priced?

[lowpoly]

Have you used them? Are they reasonably priced?

Didn't try them. I tried the software though for the case for my mini. It might work but would be really, really difficult. But a 2D structure with several holes, for ex., that's what it's made for. You can get an online quote as soon as you have designed your object, IIRC.

Maybe you can cut the interface from some unused Acer key and glue it with epoxy putty into the HHKB space bar.

[cchan]

Here's one with black alps I think for $16.  http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-NMB-Keyboard-RT6251T-BLACK-SLIDERS_W0QQitemZ250189229383QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item250189229383&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A30

Blacks are still clicky aren't they?

I see shipping to Europe is like $50 though.

NMB RT6xxx keyboards are a nice-feeling rubber dome. That one happens to be slider over rubber dome.

[sandy55]

Here's one with black alps I think for $16.  http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-NMB-Keyboard-RT6251T-BLACK-SLIDERS_W0QQitemZ250189229383QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item250189229383&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A30

If you prefer mechanical switches, do not bid on the board.  NMB RT6xxxx's are membrane.

Blacks are still clicky aren't they?

No, they aren't.

[lowpoly]

Hi sandy. :smile:

[sandy55]

No, they aren't.

I meant black ALPS.  Acer blacks are clicky.

I'm sorry I wrote a comment before I read 2nd page of this thread.  cchan already explained about NMB RT6xxx board there.

[chimera15]

Well..  I bought the board so I guess I'll see.  The white acers have membrane, but they're mechanically actuated.  They're not rubber dome.  There's no rubber used in the switch at all.  It's the same effectively as an electrical alps switch, the only difference is where on the switch the contact is made.  I expect the blacks to be similar.


The mod I made to the hhk uses the rubber, but only because the top piece that I cut holes in didn't bottom the switch out.  It still works well and still is clicky, but bottoms out with a rubber feel.  It's a pretty interesting sensation, better than the original rubber for sure.

[chimera15]

I also contact dsi and they said they have one smk 85 refurb left that they sold to me for $50. so yay.  That takes care of all the boards I need really.

[lowpoly]

I have two Acers, one with white and one with black plungers. Both appear to be the same.

[chimera15]

Ah cool, thanks for that info.  I'll probably use that black one that I'm getting to do a hhk lite 2.  That'll be really nice.  I'll post picks of the completed hhk later tonite probably.  It didn't take very long to finish as I was hoping.

[chimera15]

Hehe.  I think I got the last smk85 from dsi.  They said the one they're selling me was one they used for display in trade shows. lol  Awesome!!  It's the ps/2 non usb version which means it should have alps switches!! hehehehe!!!

[chimera15]

Here it is.  Working fantastic.  I still need to make sure all the keys are pressed down, probably need to use epoxy putty as I wasn't always perfectly exact in the hole size.  Also it was difficult to get the keys perfectly aligned with the next all the time, but generally I think I got them pretty tolerant.  You can't feel the misaligns when you type.  With my trackball this is going to go on my fully customized computer. lol I have a custom trackball, custom keyboard, and custom case.

It has a real interesting feel to it.  Because of the rubber membrane underneath, it's kind of a click with a sponge feeling...

 Yay

[lowpoly]

Congrats. :smile:

[chimera15]

Update on this.  I was able to get everything straight and working basically perfectly on the hhk lite1 mod, so that I didn't need the rubber  insert in there as a spacer anymore.  What I did was to cut the original holder for the switches out of the original board, and place it over the membrane.  It was a lot easier than cutting out holes out of the case. I then just cut the upper case of the hhk to allow the new acer holder, and  held it down by 3 screws so it has good solid contact with the membrane.  It now feels and works perfectly.  It's  an ultra light clicky mini.  Really nice.  

I'm going to try a similar mod with the btc board I'm soldering up using alps switches.  I'll take pictures of everything together then.  Anyway, really happy about this idea.


Really great kitbash idea I think if anyone else wants to try it and needs a clicky mini.

[chimera15]

Started down the road to making my btc conversion a steampunk compact.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350213690910

 I finished soldering in all the wiring, and got the metal alps frame from the other board over all the wiring now.  Now I just have to wire up all the switches and build a case.

Not sure how to mount these to the alps switches though...  I guess if I build a case that's high enough you won't be able to see the white underneath... hmmm...