Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 07 July 2015, 16:57:41
The web site is a go! Time to order your Brand New Model F Keyboard! $160,000+ in orders so far!
Please head to http://www.ModelFkeyboards.com to place your order! In general, keyboards ship out by the timestamp of your order - first in, first out!
This thread is for discussion of ongoing development of the Brand New Model F Keyboards project, including the ultra compact cases and split right shift (HHKB style) options. Please head to the group buy for discussion on project updates and ordering options. https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79141.0
F62/F77 Prototype testing, brief teardown, and sound comparisons with original IBM keyboards
F62 / F77 features:
Only new parts will be used - not New Old Stock or used part pulls from other keyboards (you can use your original IBM/Lexmark/Unicomp caps - they will be compatible)
Metal top and metal bottom case, like the original
Metal top and metal bottom inner "sandwich" plates with interlocking tabs, like the original
Model F barrels and full-size capacitive flippers, all injection molded for accuracy/durability (not 3D printed)
2 mm foam like in my original F77
Ships fully assembled at no extra charge - no further soldering will be required. You will put on the feet though!
Cork-rubber feet, plus a small selection of rubber feet (cork-rubber feet like the PC XT Model F keyboard)
Top and bottom case powdercoated in a color similar to the original "off white/beige" color, black, or similar to industrial gray (or you can pick your own color and pay extra for tooling)
New buckling springs made to original Model F spring tolerances (ideally)
Keys to be sourced from Unicomp (or you can provide your own keys). To use brand new one-piece dye sub keys instead, someone else would need to take on production of the keys.
Layouts can be adjusted at the factory, or you can adjust them later for international versions
Metal tabs attached to the top inner assembly for the Model M style spacebar stabilizer wire - no plastic pieces like in the original
Packed like a new keyboard: in two custom white EPS foam shells and in a close-fitting brown double-walled cardboard box
Fully assembled in China
10 foot monoprice USB cable with ferrite core
Extra barrels (AT-style) and capacitive flippers will be produced and made available for purchase separately (for other projects and for replacement parts)
Any other suggestions?
After everyone interested has placed their order and sent payment, please be aware that it will be several months before your order arrives.
Working Prototype photos:
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Mod Edit: removed "orders now open!" from the subject.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 07 July 2015, 16:57:49
The expansion header will be present so it should be possible to add your own solenoid, buzzer, or LED lights.
The case will be die cast like the original if the tooling is not out of reach, or maybe CNC milled. I am considering standard powder coated zinc like the original or maybe anodized aluminum.
Regarding a prototype, yes I will be getting a prototype to make sure the parts fit. Not to worry, they will adjust the tooling if something does not fit. I have incorporated standard manufacturing tolerances into my designs and have done a preliminary CAD assembly. But for some parts there cannot be a prototype made without tooling done, like for anything injection molded. I may order prototypes for just the main parts like top and bottom cover and top and bottom inner assembly and then test it with some of my existing F77 parts like barrels and flippers.
Here are the parts planned:
Top metal cover - likely aluminum or zinc
Bottom metal cover - likely aluminum or zinc
Top inner assembly - cold rolled steel
Bottom inner assembly - cold rolled steel
Inside foam - 2 mm open cell, not sure of the type of foam yet.
Clear mylar sheet (below the PCB)
Barrels
Flippers
Outside EPS foam top shell
Outside EPS foam bottom shell
Cardboard box
Post by: Karura on Tue, 07 July 2015, 19:03:44
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 07 July 2015, 19:23:45
Not a reasonable price at all.
For the amount of work needed, parts needed, this price I am guessing is fairly low. If I have the money, I would get one of each.
Post by: Air tree on Tue, 07 July 2015, 19:27:27
Not a reasonable price at all.Some people spend $500+ on Korean customs, I don't think $350 for a board that is so rare and so sought after is a bad price...
F**k me, I spent $260 in total on my HHKB, I'd happily pay $350 for a brand new kish...
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 07 July 2015, 19:37:34
That I think might get some support as well.
Post by: Karura on Tue, 07 July 2015, 19:43:38
That said, they aren't available anymore (and I haven't seen them sold for a while), so for a brand new keyboard, a recreation of the Kishsaver with nice new parts, I can get behind it.
It's a moot point to mention that they were available for a lot cheaper in the recent past! (My apologies)
Also to be more on topic, whether the board is worth $350 would also depend on the quality of the manufacturing done.
Do you have any plans or strategy to ensure the quality control is up to par?
The reason I would like to mention this is because I have friends that have outsourced the manufacturing of audiophile (headphone) amplifier aluminum enclosures to China, and the moment you least expect it, they will try to substitute materials for cheaper alternatives and it is a serious concern, if we want to have an amazing end product.
Sometimes it will require you to personally visit the factory and keep an eye on things, or atleast have someone in China to oversee the production.
You have my support for this project, frankly it is very interesting and I hope it will be a big success. Looking forward to the updates!
Post by: CPTBadAss on Tue, 07 July 2015, 20:06:08
Does powercoating have to be in RAL? Or do some shops want Pantone? A shop I've worked with in the past wanted Pantone instead.
Post by: Data on Tue, 07 July 2015, 20:13:52
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 07 July 2015, 21:28:17
I'm guessing MX compatible key caps are completely out of the question for something like this.
See Matt3o's BS to MX adapter stems.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 07 July 2015, 22:28:14
I do own some 4704s including a used F77 and brand new F77 (photos in an old thread) and have specified the components to be identical to the original where possible.
The price tinnie decided on in late 2013 does not reflect how much F62s or F77s cost to make new or what people are willing to pay for it now. Tooling is extremely expensive for just a few units, so the more people buy, the better per unit price you can get. The last kishsaver that sold on eBay was bought by a DT member for over $500.
The price will likely be lower than $350 if there is enough interest - of course a lower price would attract more interest. I posted this a week ago over on DT and there are already 100 posts and about 50 keyboards requested on the interest list.
The feasibility of this project is solely based on manufacturing costs. The quotes are still coming in. I am looking to redesign the case as that is currently the most expensive part of the keyboard. Zinc or zinc alloy is just too expensive to cast from molds for a short run. I will probably need to go with anodized aluminum instead to get the price down to $350.
It might be cool to have the case made of a single CNC milled piece of aluminum if that can be done cost effectively.
Regarding quality: I have done some manufacturing in China before - two PCB runs for xwhatsit's Model F and beamspring controllers but admittedly nothing else. I will only agree to quotes from places that agree to re-make any parts not up to standard - the same agreement for the aforementioned PCB runs. I am open to working with someone who can recommend any places that do CNC milling/lasering/etc.
Karura - regarding your note to me on key legends, Unicomp is able to make the front printed keys like those on the original F77/F62. I hope to arrange a group buy to get a lower cost for the keys if there is enough interest. They charge around $30 for a full key set I believe. You can also pull keys to use from your existing Model F/M keyboards and save a little on cost. Though you'd have to give up one keyboard for parts if you ever decide to pass on the new F77/F62. Regarding tolerances, the old IBM keyboards were made with good tolerances for 1980s manufacturing, which are certainly much easier to meet today and are not as difficult to achieve. I have also built in these same tolerances into my CAD renderings. For example the case has 1 - 2 mm of wiggle room even on the finished F77 to allow for a generous variation in part size relative to what can be demanded today. I will be inspecting each part and comparing it with my original example to help ensure all is well or to tell them to remake a part. And yes I hope to offer extra parts like cases and barrels/flippers as spares - the more parts offered, the lower the unit cost can be. It seems like you are experienced with manufacturing in China - please share your experiences with me or what you've heard either here or through PM - I would appreciate it! Regarding your example with material substitution for aluminum enclosures, how did your friend catch it and did the factory fix the bad units?
Melvang - the issue would be with tooling. There would have to be enough interest for metal conversion of the PC AT / XT / F122 keyboard case for a run of them. And then someone has to design them.
Air tree - I found a good example I think of what you're talking about here: http://www.gonskeyboardworks.com/custom-kbds-w-assembly/77-gon-ns-nerd-108-w-tuningassembly.html (I'm not affiliated with the seller). I see many of those "flat layer" aluminum type enclosures and will try to put a CAD model together for something similar for this F77/F62 if the original case can't be made cost effectively enough. A quote that came in recently would require around 150 preorders of either the F77 or F62 design individually for the original F77/F62 style die cast mold to be cost effective for this project.
Post by: heedpantsnow on Tue, 07 July 2015, 22:57:27
Post by: intelli78 on Tue, 07 July 2015, 23:00:07
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 08 July 2015, 01:38:39
Would love to be a part of this Group Buy but afraid I may be tossed aside because of being a CherryMX fiend. Love to try another type of keyboard that is built solidly and become a showpiece for everyone wanting to use a BS keyboard.
If the GB organizer can fill me in here with the vital info concerning this build and whether or not it's for complete newbs (myself) or for extremely technical people, to be involved with this.
Post by: Air tree on Wed, 08 July 2015, 02:13:36
Post by: byker on Wed, 08 July 2015, 02:29:20
Post by: joey on Wed, 08 July 2015, 03:16:23
Post by: azhdar on Wed, 08 July 2015, 04:23:59
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 08 July 2015, 08:54:48
My dumb question is: I'm 100% behind bringing the exquisite Model F into the future. But why not bring the layout to the future too? I'd actually much rather have a full TKL Model F with the function key row than a new F77 replica. And I bet a lot of people would really like a 75% model F.
All that said, I am potentially in for an F77 if you really want to stick with the "classic" form factor.
Post by: intelli78 on Wed, 08 July 2015, 12:49:33
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 08 July 2015, 12:58:46
It seems like there would be broader interest in a modern layout as well, and you'd potentially attract all of the buyers who already own one or both of the classic boards you're planning to replicate.
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 08 July 2015, 13:59:12
I was actually thinking about the case cost as well. If a "modern" TKL/75%/60% model F keyboard were designed based on the construction of the F-122, it would have a simple flat steel bottom and a plastic top, which should help quite a bit in reducing overall costs. Just look at aluminum cases for modern Cherry TKL boards. They can easily cost more than the entire keyboard they are enclosing. Granted it's partly an economy of scale too in that case.
It seems like there would be broader interest in a modern layout as well, and you'd potentially attract all of the buyers who already own one or both of the classic boards you're planning to replicate.
The thing with the economics of scale comparing these cast cases with custom cases that are killed is they are totally different manufacturing processes. With the cast version, a large chunk of the cost is just in making molds, and if you want to tweak anything, that means new molds, or machine out the change. Depending on the change either one or only o e will work for different reasons.
With the milled cases, the largest portion of the cost is in the material, and time/labor. These costs don't scale nearly as well as the cast versions.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 08 July 2015, 16:55:48
Melvang - yes the tooling and CNC setup are the most expensive parts. Making any die cast mold is expensive, even for relatively simple parts.
Elrick - this project is not just for the technical minded. The xwhatsit Model F controller configuration software is a GUI and I can even distribute layout files that you can customize later on. The keyboard will likely come unassembled from China but I may assemble some units myself to do some testing and for those who do not want to put it together themselves. I'll probably post an assembly video. It shouldn't take more than an hour or so to assemble.
Post by: intelli78 on Wed, 08 July 2015, 20:58:13
Another suggestion - have you considered chatting with somebody at Unicomp? As the premier authority on buckling spring keyboards, you never know what kind of helpful info/advice they might be able to provide.
Will be watching with interest!
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 08 July 2015, 21:09:20
Also wcass pointed me in the right direction on which silver 4704-style labels to buy, so I will be able to add serial numbers and dates to each F62/F77 with a label like the original but with no logo.
Did you know that the flippers/pivot plates actually use glass filled plastic for strength - that's why if you take out an original flipper and try to bend it, it's not easy to do even though the flipper is so thin. Not sure if this is necessary or whether it just extends the pivot plate life from 50 million to 100 million keystrokes or something...
Post by: RoastPotatoes on Wed, 08 July 2015, 22:54:37
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 08 July 2015, 23:00:07
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 08 July 2015, 23:40:00
Hi intelli and Techno Trousers - yes the intent of the project is to get as close to the original F77 and F62 as possible. You can adjust the layouts to any layout that a Model M would support, like ISO enter, split backspace, split left shift, etc.
Sure, I get it, and like I said, I'll be putting myself down as interested in an F77 repro.
For what it's worth, here are the unavoidable drawbacks I've found in the current "easily obtained" Fs, and why for me a modern TKL F would be far superior to any.
XT: awful layout, won't work without a controller mod, possibly tolerable with a lot of expense and work using Xtant. I'll probably never attempt this one.
AT: no top function keys, esc, or printscr. Big-J enter unless time consuming and exacting ANSI mod is done, no ctrl+alt on each side of space bar without difficult plate modification. Awful space bar feel without modification. No win key mod possible.
F-122: Bonkers massive, needs controller conversion, tough layout unless ANSI-modified, no esc or print screen possible in standard locations, arrow cluster 1 row too high, no spot on PCB for a Win key or equivalent.
Now, even with all of these drawbacks I've worked my way up to a usable collection of these Model Fs an they are my daily drivers because the typing feel is just unbeatable in my experience. But the labor I've put into these is worth way more than $350 apiece, and they're all still compromised in some unavoidable ways.
Capacitive buckling spring keyboards in modern layouts would be so incredible. I'm convinced that a company could carve a nice niche business out of selling them if they could get enough exposure. Just imagine the sales pitches:
Gamer? Forget N-key rollover, try INFINITE key rollover!
Vintage keyboard enthusiast? Try a buckling spring keyboard with Windows keys, top notch build quality, and a much better typing feel than the venerated Model M.
Prefer to buy quality goods? How about keys that could last for two hundred million keystrokes?
I've long wished that Unicomp would consider doing this, but I think now they are mostly just interested in scraping by.
So I'll hold out hope that if this initial run goes well, you'll decide to continue on with some experiments into modern layouts! You'd definitely keep getting my business. I'll bet you'd even be able to convince Fohat.Digs to buy a modern 104/108 key layout Model F. He really loves that ten keypad for some reason.
Post by: Data on Thu, 09 July 2015, 11:53:52
Post by: admiralvorian on Thu, 09 July 2015, 14:12:01
Hi intelli and Techno Trousers - yes the intent of the project is to get as close to the original F77 and F62 as possible. You can adjust the layouts to any layout that a Model M would support, like ISO enter, split backspace, split left shift, etc.
Sure, I get it, and like I said, I'll be putting myself down as interested in an F77 repro.
For what it's worth, here are the unavoidable drawbacks I've found in the current "easily obtained" Fs, and why for me a modern TKL F would be far superior to any.
XT: awful layout, won't work without a controller mod, possibly tolerable with a lot of expense and work using Xtant. I'll probably never attempt this one.
AT: no top function keys, esc, or printscr. Big-J enter unless time consuming and exacting ANSI mod is done, no ctrl+alt on each side of space bar without difficult plate modification. Awful space bar feel without modification. No win key mod possible.
F-122: Bonkers massive, needs controller conversion, tough layout unless ANSI-modified, no esc or print screen possible in standard locations, arrow cluster 1 row too high, no spot on PCB for a Win key or equivalent.
Now, even with all of these drawbacks I've worked my way up to a usable collection of these Model Fs an they are my daily drivers because the typing feel is just unbeatable in my experience. But the labor I've put into these is worth way more than $350 apiece, and they're all still compromised in some unavoidable ways.
Capacitive buckling spring keyboards in modern layouts would be so incredible. I'm convinced that a company could carve a nice niche business out of selling them if they could get enough exposure. Just imagine the sales pitches:
Gamer? Forget N-key rollover, try INFINITE key rollover!
Vintage keyboard enthusiast? Try a buckling spring keyboard with Windows keys, top notch build quality, and a much better typing feel than the venerated Model M.
Prefer to buy quality goods? How about keys that could last for two hundred million keystrokes?
I've long wished that Unicomp would consider doing this, but I think now they are mostly just interested in scraping by.
So I'll hold out hope that if this initial run goes well, you'll decide to continue on with some experiments into modern layouts! You'd definitely keep getting my business. I'll bet you'd even be able to convince Fohat.Digs to buy a modern 104/108 key layout Model F. He really loves that ten keypad for some reason.
I am supporting this build in the simple hope that one day I may be able to get a "modern" SSK
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 09 July 2015, 22:54:11
The last picture is a side profile wireframe view. You can see that the main metal parts all have 1 mm or more of "give" or space and do not have to fit perfectly together or require high tolerances. So even if the bend radius of the plates are slightly off in some examples, they would still fit the case.
Also notice the expensive folding design of the original 4704 bottom inner assembly has been altered to an XT or AT style bend of the plate, and the interior case features have been corrected to fit the design.
Do people prefer 1" cork feet like the original XT or rubber adhesive feet? I am open to recommendations from McMaster-Carr (they have lots of cork and adhesive pads to choose from) and other places. I can probably offer both cork and some kind of rubber.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Thu, 09 July 2015, 22:58:24
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 09 July 2015, 23:07:27
Post by: Vizir on Fri, 10 July 2015, 00:43:06
Post by: livingspeedbump on Fri, 10 July 2015, 17:44:58
Post by: FrostyToast on Sun, 12 July 2015, 11:20:07
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 12 July 2015, 11:38:35
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 12 July 2015, 12:40:27
Frosty - I have just about everything in place now except for the case and foam. I am trying to find out the particular type of 2 mm thick Ensolite foam used - I have been told a lot of Ensolite foam has the "skin" as shown in the attached photos of my original F77's foam. With die casting I would need about 200 preorders of each type F62 and F77 to get it down to $350 total. I am looking into CNC milled aluminum, either anodized or powder coated (or maybe even a choice for both if it's not too expensive and there is enough interest in both finishes).
Another finish you could look into would be Cerokote. It is extremely durable. It was designed for gun parts for multiple reasons, one being abrasion and scratch resistance.
I believe that stuff can be applied thin enough to show a brushed finish.
Post by: 0100010 on Sun, 12 July 2015, 22:01:52
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 13 July 2015, 06:44:51
Post by: 0100010 on Mon, 13 July 2015, 09:51:36
Post by: FrostyToast on Mon, 13 July 2015, 09:55:43
Have you thought about starting a group buy for just one of the options first to reach your goal?
Post by: Air tree on Mon, 13 July 2015, 10:36:31
Post by: poxeclipse on Mon, 13 July 2015, 11:37:11
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 13 July 2015, 11:52:06
I am confident that CNC milling will bring the costs down to reach $350, so we will not need 200 units to proceed as with a mold.
If you spend thousands on each case die, each case can be made for less than CNC milling, so I am still waiting for quotes but am leaning towards CNC given we are not making hundreds or thousands of these.
The good news is the other parts have more reasonable costs.
Anyone want to do a simpler case mockup? I am open to alternative case designs but not layered boards as people seem to strongly prefer a solid case for these. Maybe it can primarily be one solid piece of extruded aluminum?
Post by: JaccoW on Mon, 13 July 2015, 12:42:58
Post by: AKmalamute on Mon, 13 July 2015, 13:05:26
Fully programmable, like any GB keyboard that goes through here? Hardware dvorak 60% BS does sound enticing.
The layouts are finalized, then? This is going to have the same sized keys in the same places as the originals did? That part, I might question. I understand keycaps will be an issue but a few 1x blanks shouldn't be that spending to find. Although I really miss the old winkeyless layout with the solid gap between the Ctrl & Alt keys. Sort of a reverse-HHKB if you will.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 13 July 2015, 13:17:30
The Model M keys are easily found used on eBay or through Unicomp, even one unit blank keys. They work fine on Model F keyboards. You can also remove the barrel between ctrl and alt if you prefer. Each barrel of a Model F can be individually removed.
How many people would prefer to order their F62 or an extra F62 with the HHKB style fn key and shorter right shift key? This would be a permanent alteration - you can never use a standard right shift key from a model m on your F62 if it is modified for right fn.
With this layout I would need to move the barrel and create a slightly different PCB. To be fair I would have to pass along tooling costs and PCB costs for this shorter run. It would probably be $25 extra if only 5 to 10 people are interested, and less if more people want it for their F62. Please let me know if you haven't already.
Post by: Air tree on Mon, 13 July 2015, 14:50:32
Post by: Vizir on Mon, 13 July 2015, 14:57:04
Post by: Data on Mon, 13 July 2015, 15:40:48
How difficult would it be to make cherry MX compatible stems for this? I'd like a hhkb style layout with the fn key. Why not make a modern version of the classic.
Supposedly Matt3o has already made some. That was before my time here, so I don't really know much about them. I'd pretty much have to source some before I could use a board like this.
Post by: 0100010 on Mon, 13 July 2015, 23:03:24
Post by: Vizir on Mon, 13 July 2015, 23:56:27
Function can be handled by holding Spaceterrible idea. holding space should insert multiple spaces. would you like if I replaced you A so that keeping it pressed would make it function like a CTRL? no. there's a reason keys have repeat.
splitting right (opposite of HHKB though)splitting right is exactly what it should be. the right shift is big enough, as it is.
left shift (ISO)left shift doesn't need fixing.
in between Ctrl / Alt on either sidethis is a possibility, but requires another layout to learn. the right shift is HUGE. why not just make it a little smaller?
in place of Caps Lock.another possibility... but that can be handled in the firmware.
overall, i think adding another key to the right shift only adds to more possible key combinations.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Tue, 14 July 2015, 00:08:02
Post by: FrostyToast on Tue, 14 July 2015, 09:16:37
I thought we just established that these were going to be recreations? I vote for keeping the original plate and PCB layouts for the initial run, at least.
While that is true you can easily have an option for both to my knowledge. A left stemmed 1.75u key (aka caps lock) and a 1u key would still be able to fit on the same barrels that the right shift would occupy. All that needs changing is an extra spot on the PCB for another switch.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 14 July 2015, 10:48:45
Is it OK to use a stepped caps lock style key and a 1U function key in place of the right shift key? There will be an extra pad on my PCB so you can split the right shift key.
Post by: Vizir on Tue, 14 July 2015, 12:40:44
Post by: AKmalamute on Tue, 14 July 2015, 13:54:25
In other words, let's say I buy about 100 barrels -- only. The remaining parts to make a working keyboard would be (I'm a bit unfamiliar with BS innards so help me if I'm missing something):
- plate(s) in SS. Could be laser cut by local shop. Y'know, after the .dxf is made.
- PCB, redesigned to accept BS flippers as the connector. Any PCB fab, or are they "weird" ?
- a uController. (Like, any controller? or will I have to buy into that long dead GB for capacitive controllers?)
If I could make my own keyboard that way, I'd like to buy so BS parts. Does that include the spring, or does that normally come with the keycap? I don't see a picture of a spring in this IC but I assume the barrel has three parts : flipper, outer barrel, and inner spring.
Clue me in if I'm way off base here.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 14 July 2015, 14:40:49
Vizir -1.75u keys only come in stepped, with a few rare exceptions like a Japanese layout Model M. Unicomp only sells the nonstepped 1.75u key as part of the full Japanese key set from what I was told.
AK - loose barrels and flippers/springs may be available 6 months or so from now. They should be around $1 per flipper/spring/barrel combination in bulk. Anyone interested in doing another project down the line should PM me - if there are a number of projects I may not have enough barrels left for more than a few keyboards and then you would be out of luck if you need them (unless you ripped up an old model F 122 or AT).
You need the top/bottom inner assembly, xwhatsit controller, capacitive PCB, mylar sheet, and case.
Post by: AKmalamute on Tue, 14 July 2015, 15:52:24
AK - loose barrels and flippers/springs may be available 6 months or so from now. They should be around $1 per flipper/spring/barrel combination in bulk. Anyone interested in doing another project down the line should PM me - if there are a number of projects I may not have enough barrels left for more than a few keyboards and then you would be out of luck if you need them
What I was really asking, was if you would consider adjusting the order form. Rather than buying leftovers, I want in on the GB. I could buy the barrels now, which won't help spread your cost for the plates / cases down any but you wouldn't have to spend too much ordering extras that never get used. I could do that, instead. :))
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 14 July 2015, 16:24:49
Post by: Techno Trousers on Tue, 14 July 2015, 16:43:17
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 14 July 2015, 16:52:30
EDIT : Like this -
(http://s28.postimg.org/t099gjkxp/options.gif)
Post by: Techno Trousers on Tue, 14 July 2015, 17:09:09
Post by: Vizir on Tue, 14 July 2015, 20:21:01
also, Ellipse, I was one of the people who bought one of the xwhatsit's model f controllers group buys which you did (http://deskthority.net/f-o-r-s-a-l-e-f58/around-50-xwhatsit-model-f-usb-controllers-30-each-shipping-t9093.html). would that controller work? is the new controller any different? i still have mine saved up for the ever elusive kishsaver, perhaps I can use it on this.
Post by: Air tree on Tue, 14 July 2015, 20:25:15
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 14 July 2015, 20:43:18
Air tree - hopefully these will ship around the end of August - that could be too ambitious though.
0100010 - there is a debate going on over on DT and GH over 1.75 + 1u vs. 1.5 + 1.25u - I'll need some more feedback from those who want to buy the HHKB variation which one they prefer. Right now the preference is 1.75 stepped +1u
Good idea Techno - extra parts of varying quantity will likely be available.
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 14 July 2015, 20:54:41
Because some may not know, F space bars are different and not compatible with M space bars. They will actuate the flipper the same, but they are totally different stabilizers. With F being between the plates, and M being above the plate. Plus, some also may not know, Unicomp does NOT make F style space bars. To my knowledge nobody does.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 14 July 2015, 21:03:54
There is another Model F spacebar that is similar to a Model M spacebar but it has a thinner stabilizer wire.
This project will work with Model M spacebars with no modification required. Instead of the plastic holders for the spacebar on the F107s and such, there will be two U-shaped steel tabs epoxied to the correct place on the top inner assembly. The steel tabs have been designed to secure a Model M spacebar stabilizer wire. These should ensure a much more durable spacebar stabilizer post than the original brittle plastic.
If you want, you should be able to use a Model F spacebar and its stabilizer wire with a little plastic tube added, kind of like a reverse wcass spacebar stabilizer mod (not an XT or AT style spacebar which will not work with this project).
Post by: Karura on Tue, 14 July 2015, 21:17:19
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 14 July 2015, 21:19:26
Post by: Techno Trousers on Tue, 14 July 2015, 21:35:21
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 14 July 2015, 21:42:56
Post by: dfj on Wed, 15 July 2015, 00:14:57
I wish you lots of success with this - but I want to pass on a few risks I see, as the little bit I can do to ameliorate them.
I have a large stash of parts accumulated over the years, so I'm set, personally. For everyone else, however, I'd love to see progress against many of the challenges you are facing this summer.
The flippies, keystems and springs are some parts of the F keyboards that people have had trouble replicating.
I find Unicomp's single-piece keys do not so much replicate the feel of the original single piece IBM keys as found on the XT/AT/bigfoot/4077s, though the difference between them and the two piece model M's is not troubling to me, since I prefer one-piece. This is very irritating for me, since I would love to be able to source new keys for fun F builds.
The barrels are likely to be successful fast, as they are relatively flexible tolerance simple molds and are not picky about plastic, so long as it slides well with old PBT and whatever Unicomp is currently using. In a pinch, unicomp barrel-plates can be chopped up, but I seriously doubt this will be needed.
I'm glad you are reducing risk on the case-side with CNC - reduces options for bulk cost reduction, but makes it way more likely a nice case will be available soon within the cost window.
No-one I know has successfully replicated the flippies, whether in resin, home IM, or whatever - nevermind with conducting material to get a working one that both flips well and also scans well with minimal bounce. I don't even know if they require a minimum resistance to reduce ringing - conductive plastics can be much lower resistance now than 30-40 years ago in the F/beamspring era. Bit of fiddling with a scope testing some some fiddled keys could likely answer this part. I can't tell from your image of the flippie (IBM called them capacitive flip-plates) to what degree you have replicated IBM's work, as only the topside is shown in the rendering above.
So - I feel you need to make sure your model *flips* well, and you need to also confirm it scans and bounces nicely. A nicely behaved F switch has a single, short 1.5ms bounce at the front for the make, imo. The release is smooth and clean, generates a simple near linear signal on break.
I guess I'm trying to warn that it might take a few more tries than one might consider reasonable to get all the variables playing nicely with each other. If your time and personal energy hold out - many of the problems that surprise you can be managed without huge amounts of additional cash - but it will take time. If you stick it out, ultimately, they will ship.
Luckily some risk amelioration can be had for those who can source an old XT or 122 as a stopgap - lots of handy parts in there. The 4704 case is currently unobtanium, regardless of price - pcb is a little fiddly, but copying the original exactly is an option.
Effective springs can be had by swapping out from unicomp flippies - they aren't the same strength, but they are made to sufficiently close tolerances, so work fine. Slight feel difference, but not one I mind, personally.
I see the biggest risk - and the biggest win, with the case. The other dependencies are less risky, or less important, imo.
I'd love to see working flippies though - I see them as a bit risky, but totally hope you get them working well so that the community has an arbitrary supply going forward. : )
Bestest Lucks!
dfj
Post by: 0100010 on Wed, 15 July 2015, 07:42:36
The PCB template wcass had drawn up for the Rev3 F62 there, supported several configs for the bottom row.
Post by: Vizir on Wed, 15 July 2015, 08:31:25
Post by: Vizir on Wed, 15 July 2015, 08:32:34
Vizir - take a look at this thread : http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/ibm-model-f-62-and-f-107-mod-ideas-t9324-60.htmlVery cool. Is that PCB design being used in this project?
The PCB template wcass had drawn up for the Rev3 F62 there, supported several configs for the bottom row.
Post by: 0100010 on Wed, 15 July 2015, 08:57:03
1.5 - 1 - 1.5 - 7 - 1.5 - 1 - 1.5 (standard 103 key Model F / Unicomp layout)
1 - 1.5 - 7 - 1.5 - 1 (HHKB-ish)
1.5 - 1 - 1.5 - 2.75 - 1.5 - 2.75 - 1.5 - 1 - 1.5 (split spacebar using Code keys)
Right shift is still optional though : normal 2.75x, split 1.75x + 1x or 1.5x + 1.25x.
Added image :
(http://s12.postimg.org/4r9ghw2ml/F62.png)
Post by: Vizir on Wed, 15 July 2015, 19:40:53
The additional keys would make this an end game keyboard tho.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 16 July 2015, 20:49:03
Post by: Vizir on Thu, 16 July 2015, 21:00:34
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 16 July 2015, 21:17:44
Are the barrels going to be XT or AT style. And would it be possible to have plates cut to support both vintage and the new barrel?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 16 July 2015, 22:00:48
Has anyone tried cutting off the XT barrel posts to make them fit inside an AT/F122 or other angled barrel connector keyboard?
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Fri, 17 July 2015, 07:21:06
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 17 July 2015, 17:20:44
I also plan on making extra foam inserts so that even if the foam wears out after a decade or so of usage, you can have a pre-cut spare handy.
Post by: kirkvomit on Sun, 19 July 2015, 10:29:52
Post by: Vizir on Sun, 19 July 2015, 10:40:38
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 21 July 2015, 16:40:05
Post by: Spopepro on Tue, 21 July 2015, 17:35:55
What are the advantages of TMK over xwhatsit and vice versa?
Hasu's work (TMK) is really, really good and remarkably flexible. It's about as pleasurable as can be for working with a firmware. But xwhatit's is perfectly fine. It's not as flexible, but doesn't need to be.
But it's moot, isn't it? TMK doesn't have the capsense part to control the thresholds and the electronic stuff.
Post by: AKmalamute on Tue, 21 July 2015, 18:38:20
But it's moot, isn't it? TMK doesn't have the capsense part
It didn't have the i2c stuff that the ergodox uses either. I bet a fork could be made.
Now, if only I could code my way out of a paper bag ...
Post by: Vizir on Tue, 21 July 2015, 23:31:21
Post by: Spopepro on Tue, 21 July 2015, 23:43:13
I'm sure if someone makes a capsense module for tmk, it'll get added to the official repository. I think HaaTa's kiibohd firmware got the capsense support quite recently.
I can't find anything in the repo that indicates this. It is hard for me to imagine someone taking the time to do this since it's not just the firmware, but the calibration software and other maintenance tools specific to capacitive switches.
Post by: Vizir on Tue, 21 July 2015, 23:47:28
Post by: Spopepro on Wed, 22 July 2015, 00:04:13
Look, I really like TMK, but not enough to fork it. Xwhatsit's solution is good. Is there something in TMK that you feel like the xwhatsit firmware needs? It would probably be easier to port the feature that way, rather than the other way around.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 22 July 2015, 00:33:58
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 22 July 2015, 00:56:29
Xwhatsit controllers are well tested and solid for Model F and beamspring conversions. I don't really see any reason to reinvent the wheel on this one.
This is very true. I have used them a couple times.
Though I think an option for either mini or micro USB connector would be nice. Personally I feel that mini is a bit easier to fine cheaper in longer lengths than micro.
And I feel that Layer indicator LED should be a possible output in the expansion port. I mean how often do we use Num Lock or Scroll Lock for the indicators to be useful.
Post by: AKmalamute on Wed, 22 July 2015, 01:01:06
Xwhatsit controllers are well tested and solid for Model F and beamspring conversions. I don't really see any reason to reinvent the wheel on this one.
Possibly because you're not trying to reinvent the wheel. Remember, I'm wanting to make an ergonomic keyboard, not recreate the dinosaurs. The keyswitch was beautiful; the layout, I'm not willing to pay money for anymore.
Post by: Vizir on Wed, 22 July 2015, 13:03:24
Yes, that thread left off a year ago with "I have some arm ideas" and references a dead repo. It's not listed as an active project on kiibohd.com.I didn't ask for tmk support or anything about forking tmk. Just stated that it could be done.
Look, I really like TMK, but not enough to fork it. Xwhatsit's solution is good. Is there something in TMK that you feel like the xwhatsit firmware needs? It would probably be easier to port the feature that way, rather than the other way around.
Post by: alienman82 on Wed, 22 July 2015, 14:30:09
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 22 July 2015, 15:02:35
As an update, supplier negotiations for the full run are going well but prototyping is not as well for for a reasonable cost unit. I was quoted as high as $1,800 by one place for a prototype of just the case for one of the two designs!
Does anyone here have access to an inexpensive CNC mill for plastic and/or aluminum? At least for the prototype. Please PM me if you can help.
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 22 July 2015, 22:04:28
I personally haven't done business with them, but Mkawa talks good about their work. And they are located less than an hour from me by car.
I have spoke with them a couple times for some work and they have always been very helpful and great people to chat with about the trade.
Post by: kirkvomit on Sat, 25 July 2015, 06:47:23
Yes, that thread left off a year ago with "I have some arm ideas" and references a dead repo. It's not listed as an active project on kiibohd.com.
Look, I really like TMK, but not enough to fork it. Xwhatsit's solution is good. Is there something in TMK that you feel like the xwhatsit firmware needs? It would probably be easier to port the feature that way, rather than the other way around.
I'm not familiar with xwhatsit, does it have any website or repo? How many fn layers does it support?
TMK have some features that I really like:
for example double-tap FN key, when I double tap shift key all letters become upper case (so I don't need capslock key any more and replaced it with ctrl key)
also I'm using space FN feature - when I press and hold space it switches layer where I have F keys on the numeric row and arrow keys instead of J, I, K, L.
Is it possible to program keyboard this way with xwhatsit?
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 25 July 2015, 15:57:22
Yes, that thread left off a year ago with "I have some arm ideas" and references a dead repo. It's not listed as an active project on kiibohd.com.
Look, I really like TMK, but not enough to fork it. Xwhatsit's solution is good. Is there something in TMK that you feel like the xwhatsit firmware needs? It would probably be easier to port the feature that way, rather than the other way around.
I'm not familiar with xwhatsit, does it have any website or repo? How many fn layers does it support?
TMK have some features that I really like:
for example double-tap FN key, when I double tap shift key all letters become upper case (so I don't need capslock key any more and replaced it with ctrl key)
also I'm using space FN feature - when I press and hold space it switches layer where I have F keys on the numeric row and arrow keys instead of J, I, K, L.
Is it possible to program keyboard this way with xwhatsit?
Xwhatsit only supports 9 layers max but only 3 function keys iirc, and to my knowledge no double tap or dual role keys. Again I may be wrong here, I haven't needed that stuff with my AT so I haven't looked.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 29 July 2015, 22:43:21
Please let me know if you are interested in the HHKB style split right shift option with the caps lock style key and a regular 1u key replacing the larger right shift on the new F62 Kishsavers? So far about 5 of you have expressed interest in the Google docs form. I will be ordering all of these next week along with the PCB prototypes. All the prototypes, plus all the split right shift F62s, will have separate controllers like the xtant PCB in order to keep costs reasonable. orihalcon sells the separate controllers for about $38 or so, and I have some extras too. I will order a few extra F62 split right shift PCBs to anticipate further interest.
Some good news: with the current level of interest (about 86 keyboards reserved so far) it looks like you can order either one of these for $325 if you bring your own keycaps ($350 if you want Unicomps).
Would anyone be interested in paying $40 for an original Model M keyboard to share caps with (you would receive the Model M keyboard too!), or would you prefer bring your own caps / the $25 or $30 unicomp caps with custom printed F1, F2, etc. like on the original Kishsavers/4704s? I may be able to locate 10 or 20 Model M's at that bulk price.
Post by: Air tree on Wed, 29 July 2015, 23:00:12
If not, I'm leaning towards the classic layout.
And I'm pretty down to bring my own caps, but one question, how is the quality of Unicomps caps compared to the models M's? If Unicomps are less than nice, I'll be down for the model M option at $40...
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 29 July 2015, 23:05:03
Post by: FrostyToast on Wed, 29 July 2015, 23:09:12
Although it does also depend on the final price difference too.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 29 July 2015, 23:22:32
Not sure what Unicomp charges for the special key set.
Post by: FrostyToast on Thu, 30 July 2015, 00:25:16
Frosty - I expect to price each keyboard at $325 not counting the keys (just around my initial $350 estimate). So you can order any keys you'd like through unicomp (I will see if I can order them in bulk for a better price).
Not sure what Unicomp charges for the special key set.
My limit is at around $380 USD. Assuming that the Canadian dollar doesn't plummet again.
$325 is a great price and for that I would definitely be down. :thumb:
Post by: azhdar on Thu, 30 July 2015, 01:42:40
Post by: Vizir on Thu, 30 July 2015, 13:18:11
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 02 August 2015, 17:03:45
Everyone interested would most likely just have to split about $100 in extra tooling costs plus a little extra for the PCB. The more ways it is split, the lower the cost of the F77 HHKB style split right shift option. So far I have heard about 3 people interested (a $33 or so split each way, plus marginal PCB costs).
Post by: romevi on Sun, 02 August 2015, 18:59:36
Post by: Karura on Mon, 03 August 2015, 17:56:23
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 07 August 2015, 11:46:30
The HHKB style split right shift PCBs will all require separate controllers given their lower quantities.
Karura - one of the DT members rsbseb announced his plans for custom tooled keycaps which would go great with this project.
Post by: scubaste on Fri, 07 August 2015, 12:26:52
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 12 August 2015, 06:35:21
Post by: geniekid on Wed, 12 August 2015, 13:45:13
An update: Prototype PCBs have been ordered!
:thumb:
Post by: darkspider on Thu, 13 August 2015, 00:46:14
I hope these great boards will be shipped worldwide(I live in Japan).
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 13 August 2015, 08:25:55
Post by: darkspider on Thu, 13 August 2015, 08:35:01
So, I registered!
Post by: Dodgy on Tue, 18 August 2015, 11:50:41
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 21 August 2015, 21:13:24
As an update, prototype PCBs should arrive on Monday! And the prototype cases should arrive in 2-3 weeks.
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Fri, 21 August 2015, 22:23:09
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 22 August 2015, 11:42:12
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Sat, 22 August 2015, 16:44:37
Great iamtootallforthis. I see you are located in NY/NJ per your profile - feel free to do a local pickup in Manhattan to save $25 shipping on each keyboard.
Now it's almost a guarantee!
Post by: darkspider on Sat, 22 August 2015, 17:11:38
Thanks Dodgy - it looks like you registered the 100th keyboard!
As an update, prototype PCBs should arrive on Monday! And the prototype cases should arrive in 2-3 weeks.
wow, great! I want to know how that prototype is.
Post by: Karura on Sat, 22 August 2015, 20:47:16
What about the other components? It won't be cheap to make, but are there currently specsheets sent out and plans?
Post by: Air tree on Sat, 22 August 2015, 21:13:13
Just a thought.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 22 August 2015, 22:28:33
Air tree - maybe you can review it if you are in NYC in a month or so? I plan on a meetup where you can see and test the prototypes during the month or so that orders will be accepted. I will also post detailed typing and sound comparisons with some of my original Model F keyboards (122, 77, 107, PC AT). Bring your own keyboards to compare!
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sat, 22 August 2015, 23:10:16
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 24 August 2015, 22:37:53
Some truly nice PCB design work by one of the senior GH/DT contributors who has been very helpful throughout the PCB design process! I could not have done this nearly as well as he did!
Interestingly the standard unaltered copper color used today for the traces (as well as the PCB material) is a lot less dark than what was used in the mid to late 80s but reminds me of some of the very early beamspring PCBs, at least when back illuminated.
It is my understanding that the tradeoff to getting a darker copper color is you would need to change the solder mask from the current clear solder mask to dark brown, but then you would lose the nice transparent effect where you can see the back side column traces through the PCB (another more expensive PCB shop may be able to do custom copper and PCB colors but that is out of budget).
A note - the bottom inner assembly pictured with the new PCBs is from an original F77 - the prototypes have not yet gone into production.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: darkspider on Mon, 24 August 2015, 23:59:58
I also must appreciate the man who you says helped you to design the PCBs, thank you.
You say cases will come in just few weeks. I can't wait it and its reviews.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 25 August 2015, 20:23:07
I have ordered the CNC milled and powdercoated F77 and F62 case prototypes; they should go into production this week or next week.
Below is the EPS foam (Styrofoam) design for packing each keyboard, similar to the design of the original foam from my NIB F77 and made of the same material. The design is the same for the top and bottom piece to save on tooling costs. Extra foam and double walled custom fit boxes will be available for order if you wanted one for your original F62 Kishsaver.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: geniekid on Tue, 25 August 2015, 21:15:56
So the next step is case, then...plates? Barrels and flippers? I'm very excited.
Post by: Air tree on Tue, 25 August 2015, 21:28:23
Oddly enough, this will be my first board with BS, let alone capacitive BS. :))
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 25 August 2015, 21:46:50
The bottleneck in the prototype process will probably be the barrel and flipper tooling, which could take a few weeks or longer.
But if all goes well I could be opening up orders in a month or two. The biggest question mark at this point is the suitability of the carbon infused resin in the flippers to carry the capacitive charge reliably, but I can always change the material if the sample flippers are no good.
So far we are at 110 preorders!
Post by: Techno Trousers on Tue, 25 August 2015, 21:54:20
I'm glad to see everything is coming along so nicely!
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 25 August 2015, 22:18:37
Post by: Techno Trousers on Tue, 25 August 2015, 23:11:08
It's a little off topic for this thread, but have you considered producing similar foam and boxes for 101 Model Ms and SSKs? I'd think there should be a decent market for that among collectors.
Post by: azhdar on Wed, 26 August 2015, 01:10:53
Post by: darkspider on Wed, 26 August 2015, 03:33:44
I prefer F61 to F77 because it'll save my desk space a lot.
But considering real use, I think I should buy both.
F77's numpad and arrow keys are also attractive.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 26 August 2015, 08:45:04
The F62s have more preorders than the F77s. The F77 is less than 3 inches wider than the F62.
Post by: darkspider on Wed, 26 August 2015, 09:06:20
Anyway, thank you for the information.
Post by: KatzenKinder on Wed, 26 August 2015, 16:08:11
Post by: azhdar on Wed, 26 August 2015, 16:09:42
Wallet so painful T^T
End his misery and execute him.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 26 August 2015, 19:46:54
Wallet so painful T^TAt least you can justify this as a unique opportunity, and not yet another overpriced Korean custom! But my wallet will need recovery time too.
Post by: RoastPotatoes on Wed, 26 August 2015, 22:52:52
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 26 August 2015, 22:58:22
If people want to submit their own logo designs freely I can consider them, but I would not want to consider anything that resembles the original logo. The keyboard designs have become public domain but the logo is not!
Post by: darkspider on Thu, 27 August 2015, 00:00:56
Post by: RoastPotatoes on Thu, 27 August 2015, 05:15:08
Nope no printed design or logos will be used anywhere. Instead I upgraded the box to be sturdier double-walled cardboard.I was thinking of a fancy realforce style box design. But I think it could be much harder to get right. If there is a good design, it could be a nice part to this whole project.
If people want to submit their own logo designs freely I can consider them, but I would not want to consider anything that resembles the original logo. The keyboard designs have become public domain but the logo is not!
Post by: romevi on Thu, 27 August 2015, 08:25:17
The Realforce box is fancy?Nope no printed design or logos will be used anywhere. Instead I upgraded the box to be sturdier double-walled cardboard.I was thinking of a fancy realforce style box design. But I think it could be much harder to get right. If there is a good design, it could be a nice part to this whole project.
If people want to submit their own logo designs freely I can consider them, but I would not want to consider anything that resembles the original logo. The keyboard designs have become public domain but the logo is not!
Post by: RoastPotatoes on Thu, 27 August 2015, 09:43:02
I think it's a nice box. Maybe not fancy. The SSK had a nice box.The Realforce box is fancy?Nope no printed design or logos will be used anywhere. Instead I upgraded the box to be sturdier double-walled cardboard.I was thinking of a fancy realforce style box design. But I think it could be much harder to get right. If there is a good design, it could be a nice part to this whole project.
If people want to submit their own logo designs freely I can consider them, but I would not want to consider anything that resembles the original logo. The keyboard designs have become public domain but the logo is not!
Post by: Techno Trousers on Thu, 27 August 2015, 11:20:30
Post by: RoastPotatoes on Thu, 27 August 2015, 11:33:42
I know logos are a no-go, but what if it just said "F62/F77 revival keyboard" on all sides in a nice font (maybe red ink)? It would be good to have the boxes marked for easy ID in storage, if printing doesn't add significantly to the cost. Otherwise, I guess most of us will have to do the old sharpie scrawl on them later.I think a marked box would be cool. This project is either going to be the start of many custom buckling spring projects. Or it could be a highly prized keyboard from the limited run of new kish's.Show Image(https://s3.amazonaws.com/tapatalk-emoji/emoji12.png)
Post by: RoastPotatoes on Thu, 27 August 2015, 15:47:37
Post by: Techno Trousers on Thu, 27 August 2015, 15:57:49
Post by: RoastPotatoes on Thu, 27 August 2015, 16:20:01
They haven't gone up for order yet. Maybe 1-2 months away from order time?So there is plenty of time to get money and decide.
Post by: romevi on Thu, 27 August 2015, 16:21:11
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 27 August 2015, 17:15:37
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 27 August 2015, 20:44:01
The F77 and F62 case prototypes were ordered earlier this week.
Tomorrow I hope to pay for the barrel and flipper molds and enough samples for an entire F77 and F62. I decided against CNC milled plastic samples (way too expensive due to the intricate detail in each barrel), and I decided against 3D printing due to the tolerances not being good enough for this project.
The spring factory has a spring force testing machine and they will be testing each of the thousands of springs to make sure they are within the original 1980s spring force spec tolerance range. The spring tolerances I'm aiming for are two times tighter than the currently produced Model M springs, meaning the buckling springs will hopefully be slightly more even than from a new production Model M that you could buy today. Attached is a photo of original Model F and M springs and flippers (pivot plates) for reference, with some blue Industrial SSK keys in the background :)
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Air tree on Thu, 27 August 2015, 21:08:48
Post by: Techno Trousers on Thu, 27 August 2015, 21:19:38
Post by: joey on Fri, 28 August 2015, 05:31:05
Post by: darkspider on Fri, 28 August 2015, 06:23:48
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 28 August 2015, 06:32:35
Darkdpider-yes you can order extra springs
Post by: joey on Fri, 28 August 2015, 06:55:01
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 28 August 2015, 19:01:20
Post by: RoastPotatoes on Sat, 29 August 2015, 11:34:13
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 29 August 2015, 17:06:57
Post by: darkspider on Mon, 31 August 2015, 07:23:22
For instance, is it possible to assign arrow keys to HJKL+Fn like vim?
Post by: geniekid on Mon, 31 August 2015, 08:28:36
I'm very sorry for asking many questions, but can we know how flexibly we can custom layout?
For instance, is it possible to assign arrow keys to HJKL+Fn like vim?
Yes, xwhatsit's controller (the one that will be driving these boards) is fully programmable.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 31 August 2015, 21:53:19
Given this project is likely going to involve ~$40,000+ I am going to be very careful that this lives up to the F62 / F77 name. The flippers are the big question mark. I have discussed recommended barrel and flipper materials with one of the Unicomp old timers. One of the early decisions I had to make was whether or not to electroplate the flippers to get them to be capacitive; they confirmed that the original flippers were not electroplated.
At this point I expect to do some testing for a week or so on the prototypes when they arrive (as well as some HD video and sound recordings with some nice XLR microphones), and then open up orders for a month or so. Now we are just waiting for the prototypes I ordered to arrive in hopefully 5-6 weeks (maybe a little longer).
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 31 August 2015, 23:49:10
119 keyboards' worth of interest so far :)
Given this project is likely going to involve ~$40,000+ I am going to be very careful that this lives up to the F62 / F77 name. The flippers are the big question mark. I have discussed recommended barrel and flipper materials with one of the Unicomp old timers. One of the early decisions I had to make was whether or not to electroplate the flippers to get them to be capacitive; they confirmed that the original flippers were not electroplated.
At this point I expect to do some testing for a week or so on the prototypes when they arrive (as well as some HD video and sound recordings with some nice XLR microphones), and then open up orders for a month or so. Now we are just waiting for the prototypes I ordered to arrive in hopefully 5-6 weeks (maybe a little longer).
If anyone is truly interested in owning a GREAT Model-F like keyboard that is fully customized and manufactured this year, then this is it.
The real horror of this is when I finally receive this baby and I come to the brutal realization that Cherry, Thorpie and every other membrane based keyboard in the world, will melt away in the presence of this F77 :o .
Post by: romevi on Tue, 01 September 2015, 00:03:43
Most likely going to order one, but will wait when reviews and comparisons go up first.119 keyboards' worth of interest so far :)
Given this project is likely going to involve ~$40,000+ I am going to be very careful that this lives up to the F62 / F77 name. The flippers are the big question mark. I have discussed recommended barrel and flipper materials with one of the Unicomp old timers. One of the early decisions I had to make was whether or not to electroplate the flippers to get them to be capacitive; they confirmed that the original flippers were not electroplated.
At this point I expect to do some testing for a week or so on the prototypes when they arrive (as well as some HD video and sound recordings with some nice XLR microphones), and then open up orders for a month or so. Now we are just waiting for the prototypes I ordered to arrive in hopefully 5-6 weeks (maybe a little longer).
If anyone is truly interested in owning a GREAT Model-F like keyboard that is fully customized and manufactured this year, then this is it.
The real horror of this is when I finally receive this baby and I come to the brutal realization that Cherry, Thorpie and every other membrane based keyboard in the world, will melt away in the presence of this F77 :o .
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 01 September 2015, 01:01:49
119 keyboards' worth of interest so far :)
Given this project is likely going to involve ~$40,000+ I am going to be very careful that this lives up to the F62 / F77 name. The flippers are the big question mark. I have discussed recommended barrel and flipper materials with one of the Unicomp old timers. One of the early decisions I had to make was whether or not to electroplate the flippers to get them to be capacitive; they confirmed that the original flippers were not electroplated.
At this point I expect to do some testing for a week or so on the prototypes when they arrive (as well as some HD video and sound recordings with some nice XLR microphones), and then open up orders for a month or so. Now we are just waiting for the prototypes I ordered to arrive in hopefully 5-6 weeks (maybe a little longer).
If anyone is truly interested in owning a GREAT Model-F like keyboard that is fully customized and manufactured this year, then this is it.
The real horror of this is when I finally receive this baby and I come to the brutal realization that Cherry, Thorpie and every other membrane based keyboard in the world, will melt away in the presence of this F77 :o .
I had that experience when I got my AT swapped to an xwhatsit controller.
As much as I would love to aquire one of these, I have to pass for now.
Hopefully a future run, I can get in on it if there is one.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 08 September 2015, 18:37:14
Also I expect to mix the gray and beige paint colors locally to try to get just the right color and then mail the paint to China, as there is not a close enough RAL or Pantone color to match the originals. Shipping will be expensive but I hope to have close to accurate colors.
Some have questioned RAL 7030 for the industrial gray color, so I expect to just bring in an Industrial SSK case and painted F77 or F122 case when they are doing the color matching/paint mixing and make sure they are appropriate colors.
Who has a preference for the 4704 color vs. the F122 color, for those who have seen both in person (they are tough to photograph)? My 4704 examples have more of a greenish beige/off white color but their colors are much more variable compared to my painted F122s. My photo can't accurately capture the difference which is more noticeable in person.
Interestingly the F77 keys approximately match the tinting of the case paint while my F122 keys approximately match the tinting of my painted 6/1984 F122 case.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 11 September 2015, 16:35:32
I want to first make whatever people order in the next month or two and make sure everything is good with that batch before doing a kickstarter campaign, which would take a couple months longer (I don't want to keep everyone waiting!). I could definitely use some help from the forums to get the word out on the kickstarter campaign.
Does anyone have experience doing a kickstarter campaign or having something made in China?
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 11 September 2015, 22:31:44
Someone over on DT suggested doing a kickstarter campaign - including my reply here:
I want to first make whatever people order in the next month or two and make sure everything is good with that batch before doing a kickstarter campaign, which would take a couple months longer (I don't want to keep everyone waiting!). I could definitely use some help from the forums to get the word out on the kickstarter campaign.
As long as you keep everyone informed weekly at least, then there should be no problems there are a few other Koreans who are running Group Buys for building keyboards, yet have hardly communicated anything in weeks or even months so most are left feeling ripped off after handing over their money.
If anyone put in a half effort compared to BunnyLake (example) in answering questions and letting every one know what's happening weekly, then most Group Buys would go smoothly with out any problems.
When you keep totally quiet that cools everyone's enthusiasm and then later it can turn quite ugly for everyone concerned >:( .
Post by: darkspider on Fri, 11 September 2015, 23:03:03
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 13 September 2015, 16:39:40
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 17 September 2015, 08:19:43
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 17 September 2015, 21:58:15
The F62 and F77 top inner assembly prototypes have been made! They have not yet been powdercoated black.
(Attachment Link)
Kin25 and DrugER you aint :o .
Looks like you really did do it, usually you get some people claiming they can build a particular keyboard, yet few actually deliver anything to the public. Very interested in seeing this become a huge success and it damn well should.
Kudos for being an American and someone who stands behind his words and actions, that is why I love buying from true DECENT people :thumb: .
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 19 September 2015, 12:43:37
Here are some more prototype photos! The F62 split right shift and F77 split right shift prototype top inner assemblies have also been made.
These might even be the first metal Model F parts to come off the assembly line in 20+ years!
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Sat, 19 September 2015, 12:56:53
Thanks Elrick for the kind words.Wow these are looking great. Can't wait for the final result!
Here are some more prototype photos! The F62 split right shift and F77 split right shift prototype top inner assemblies have also been made.
These might even be the first metal Model F parts to come off the assembly line in 20+ years!
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Post by: jbondeson on Sat, 19 September 2015, 13:24:56
Now that I have my V60, I'm torn on whether I want the F77 or the F62 with split right-shift.
Decisions, decisions, decisions...
Post by: Vizir on Sat, 19 September 2015, 15:29:37
Post by: darkspider on Sat, 19 September 2015, 19:29:17
Post by: Karura on Sat, 19 September 2015, 20:04:30
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 19 September 2015, 20:11:20
The bottleneck will be the mold design for the barrels and flippers, which is still ongoing.
Post by: dustinhxc on Sat, 19 September 2015, 20:37:43
Thanks Elrick for the kind words.
Here are some more prototype photos! The F62 split right shift and F77 split right shift prototype top inner assemblies have also been made.
These might even be the first metal Model F parts to come off the assembly line in 20+ years!
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Damn, looks awesome! :thumb:
Post by: njbair on Sat, 19 September 2015, 21:09:34
Post by: jorgenslee on Sun, 20 September 2015, 00:12:42
Post by: romevi on Sun, 20 September 2015, 01:09:08
as someone who recently discovered the beauty of Buckling spring, I'm quite interested depends on if I can manage to get the funds the time the GB starts. I have a question though, does the goal price $350 is for the complete keyboard or is there something I need to source myself?
The goal price is definitely for the completed product, ready to use right out of the box.
You could also get it for $325 with no keycaps, which is what I plan on doing since I'm going to order some from Unicomp in the near future anyway.
Post by: rowdy on Sun, 20 September 2015, 05:06:31
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 20 September 2015, 06:37:21
Those look fantastic! Kinda like how I imagine a Model M or F would have looked back in the day, when the designers put the first prototype together, and management would have gotten all moist and excited about it!
In actual reality, Upper Management always have and will always get extremely "MOIST" and "EXCITED" when HUGE profits present themselves and it of course being totally TAX Free as well (icing on their cake).
Upper Management rely solely upon Accounting Figures to generate future motivations within any Corporate structure, unfortunately design, engineering and manufacture ranks fairly low on importance, as we have all witnessed over time. Only this individual has bypassed those narrow minded tossers of a corporate structure, to develop this very special keyboard suitable for today and tomorrow PC's.
It will always be the enthusiasts that claim the future for us here, something that has to be noted and praised on Geekhack Central.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 20 September 2015, 22:31:31
The molds are just for the barrels and flippers. The remaining components do not use molds but are milled for the most part and require setup costs and 50 to 100 unit minimums. I expect to make not much more than what people order during the one month window, and given the setup costs there would need to be a lot of interest in a second round before it would make sense to incur setup costs again (a second round might go up on Kickstarter, who knows).
So I recommend ordering during that month period whatever you'd like in the future, including keyboards and parts. The month should start after I have fully tested and made videos of the completed prototypes.
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 21 September 2015, 00:57:24
The month should start after I have fully tested and made videos of the completed prototypes.
Once the final keyboard is made and shown to the world, I think the ORDERS will roll in like a tsunami 8) .
Post by: U47 on Wed, 23 September 2015, 01:38:55
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 24 September 2015, 00:23:21
Here are two more prototype photos showing a nice fit of the top and bottom inner assembly, which slide together like the original.
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 24 September 2015, 07:38:25
Thanks Elrick and U47!
Here are two more prototype photos showing a nice fit of the top and bottom inner assembly, which slide together like the original.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Already have stashed away money for Kin25's TX1800 but it looks like it will never happen. Might as well put it into this Group Buy because we have a winner here a REAL, live Buckling Spring brought to life in 2015 :thumb: .
The quality alone makes your keyboard better than what IBM could ever produce or even Unicomp could ever achieve. A lone man in the wilderness has done more in his short time here than those clowns at Unicomp, it's almost shameful and embarrassing to call yourself a manufacturer yet produce nothing of worth.
Looking forward to your new keyboard, plus revitalizing the ancient BS switches is what might make Unicomp still stay in business and that will be all down to you Ellipse.
Post by: ccc24 on Fri, 25 September 2015, 13:12:51
Post by: chiefgrillz on Sat, 26 September 2015, 06:27:28
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 26 September 2015, 12:38:35
CCC - I hope to have prototypes by the end of October and take orders in November assuming the prototypes are up to my standards.
Chief- thanks for your interest. I posted some photos of the prototype parts including the inner assembly and the PCBs which look great when light shines through them. I recommend looking through the thread for the photos and renderings!
Post by: chiefgrillz on Sun, 27 September 2015, 18:53:43
Chief- thanks for your interest. I posted some photos of the prototype parts including the inner assembly and the PCBs which look great when light shines through them. I recommend looking through the thread for the photos and renderings!
it really blows me away how much time and effort you have put into re manufacturing an ancient board. seriously my hat is off to you guys!
i would like to try the the model F keys.. i like model m but my fingers get fatigued after using them for extended periods, so from what i've read the slightly lighter keys on this board might be preferable(?). i think your price is very reasonable considering it's a small custom manufacturing job.. but i'll have to think carefully if the layout would work for me. it would be a lovely collection piece but i need to try to just get things i'll use a lot :)
Post by: dohbot on Mon, 28 September 2015, 21:05:26
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 28 September 2015, 21:54:31
Post by: dohbot on Mon, 28 September 2015, 21:55:14
doh it is an interest check at this point. No invoicing until I fully test the prototypes. You can change your mind since nothing is being ordered just yet.
Cool, I'll put myself in!
Post by: ryahirv on Thu, 01 October 2015, 15:01:13
Thank you for all the effort of trying to make this happen!
Post by: ryahirv on Thu, 01 October 2015, 15:03:39
I think it looks amazing! :-)
(http://i.imgur.com/7X64HIn.jpg)
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 01 October 2015, 16:20:57
Post by: ryahirv on Thu, 01 October 2015, 16:22:03
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 01 October 2015, 16:38:36
Post by: ryahirv on Thu, 01 October 2015, 16:42:23
I hope to deliver in December.
Wow - I must say sir - Thank you in advance - This is literally the most exciting computing thing (to me anyways) in a LONG LONG LONG........LONG time :-)
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Thu, 01 October 2015, 17:37:59
Post by: Eugene45 on Fri, 02 October 2015, 00:24:36
By any chance an ISO version possible ?
Would this be the only one production run ?
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 02 October 2015, 01:02:16
I'm going to make mine mostly ANSI, but use an ISO short left shift. The extra key left of Z will be my easy-to-reach function key to activate an arrow and modifier layer for the keys under my right hand.
Post by: Eugene45 on Fri, 02 October 2015, 03:11:23
Dont want to have to mod it and loose one key because of it.
Post by: darkspider on Fri, 02 October 2015, 04:04:55
I saw a picture in kishy.ca, and confirm that the board in the picture has ANSI-like layout with extra keys next to short LShift and short Enter.
I guess, it is the original, isn't it?
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 02 October 2015, 08:47:15
Post by: njbair on Fri, 02 October 2015, 08:49:01
Yep they can be ordered with any layout that the barrels support. I will move the flippers and springs around. I will leave a notes section in the order form to request specific differences from a standard 1391401 layout, such as split right shift, 1u left shift, 1u backspace, num pad keys or ins/del/etc. and cursor keys for the extra keys on an F77, etc.
I love that split right shift is an option. I get the ISO split shift thing, but if you're going to split one shift and not the other, why not the longer one?
Post by: djkib on Fri, 02 October 2015, 10:17:33
I think I would be shot and thrown to the wolves here in PA/USA if I even thought about this (my financial advisor thinks I have too many keyboards already)...
But I have to say... amazing.
Any thought to using a non-metal case? How would that affect the price?
Thanks!
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 02 October 2015, 10:29:34
Well, first off, I'm used to using arrow keys with my right hand, so I'd want to activate a function layer with my left hand, not right. Second, I've done some experimentation with my natural keyboarding reach. When I'm at full speed, my left pinky already hits the far left edge of both ANSI shift keys. So I can safely shorten the left shift without having to make any typing adjustments. The third, admittedly minor, point is that this particular mod is possible without deviating from IBM's original design. So I can have the same layout on my original F62 and my F122s. Not that the F122 needs that extra function key, of course, but I may do it for consistency.Yep they can be ordered with any layout that the barrels support. I will move the flippers and springs around. I will leave a notes section in the order form to request specific differences from a standard 1391401 layout, such as split right shift, 1u left shift, 1u backspace, num pad keys or ins/del/etc. and cursor keys for the extra keys on an F77, etc.
I love that split right shift is an option. I get the ISO split shift thing, but if you're going to split one shift and not the other, why not the longer one?
Of course this is only my own preference. The great thing about these keyboards is that they can be reconfigured fairly easily.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 02 October 2015, 11:26:01
Post by: ryahirv on Fri, 02 October 2015, 11:31:00
I'm not lazy but I'm a little concerned about my competence :-)
Post by: romevi on Fri, 02 October 2015, 11:36:38
Are we going to have to put these together ourselves?
I'm not lazy but I'm a little concerned about my competence :-)
No. You have the option to order parts, but this is for a complete board.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 02 October 2015, 12:06:13
Post by: ryahirv on Fri, 02 October 2015, 12:07:23
Yep they come fully assembled, no extra cost!
Best news all day! 😀
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 02 October 2015, 19:17:01
Yep they come fully assembled, no extra cost!
Best news all day! 😀
EXACTLY, this is what every Geekhacker wants, a complete keyboard ready for connection into your PC.
Just like waiting for a 2015 BMW M6 G-Power Hurricane CS Ultimate, to be delivered to your front door 8) .
Something so rare and unique that it burns a hole in your eye-sockets the very minute they come into contact with it.....
Post by: rowdy on Fri, 02 October 2015, 22:56:28
Yep they come fully assembled, no extra cost!
Best news all day! 😀
EXACTLY, this is what every Geekhacker wants, a complete keyboard ready for connection into your PC.
Just like waiting for a 2015 BMW M6 G-Power Hurricane CS Ultimate, to be delivered to your front door 8) .
Something so rare and unique that it burns a hole in your eye-sockets the very minute they come into contact with it.....
That would make reading the forum a little challenging ...
Post by: ManicMatt1125 on Sat, 03 October 2015, 14:37:42
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 04 October 2015, 18:24:29
Assuming a layout similar to a 1391401, It looks like each keyboard will require $34 in Unicomp key parts - 4 stabilizer inserts ($1.50 each), a spacebar ($3), and a key set ($25 printed key set or $20 unprinted key set). If there is a less expensive option please let me know - I asked if there was a bulk discount but they did not offer one.
Post by: ryahirv on Sun, 04 October 2015, 18:30:14
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 04 October 2015, 19:46:56
I also plan on doing a bulk Unicomp order for new key sets, so I suggest ordering keys for your F77/F62 through me so that I can install them on your ordered keyboard and test the keys - otherwise I will need to install and then remove caps to test each keyboard.
Assuming a layout similar to a 1391401, It looks like each keyboard will require $34 in Unicomp key parts - 4 stabilizer inserts ($1.50 each), a spacebar ($3), and a key set ($25 printed key set or $20 unprinted key set). If there is a less expensive option please let me know - I asked if there was a bulk discount but they did not offer one.
Anything you require, just ask because what ever makes it easier for you to put these babies together and have them working 100% to your own specs we shall agree to without question.
Putting together this style of keyboard is more complex than simply soldering Cherry switches onto a pcb, that is why I am glad you offered your service here BUT realize what you shall be giving up here, your own personal life, free time and above all, any known sense of sanity. Building keyboards for strangers is a very time consuming and perilous journey that can sometimes collapse into absurdity.
Make sure that you can withstand the hunger and anticipation of Geekhackers wanting your product above everything else and trying to please everyone here, which could ultimately lead to your eventual downfall. Just make sure you are prepared for this monumental task once it starts.
A lot of people have started Group Buys for the construction of keyboards and have failed, leaving many out of pocket hence we need to know that once you start this there is no turning back.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 04 October 2015, 21:00:31
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 04 October 2015, 21:16:44
Thanks Elrick - I expect to have these mostly assembled in China. It may be a good idea for me to also send the keys to China to be assembled. I will do the final testing though.
The MOST important thing to remember here is to ALWAYS keep in contact here on Geekhack and/or DT because nothing is worse than not hearing anything for months about this Group Buy, then all hell breaks loose and the lynching party starts to form easily.
You have to at least post once a week in this forum on the progression of this venture because it gives no one any haste about spending their money and being in this Group Buy. BunnyLake is the current KING of Group Buys because he goes way overboard in assuring everyone that everything is in hand and running as expected. Even if difficulties spring up (because they always do) talking about it here on this forum is far better than keeping it all to yourself.
You will be surprised the good will you shall receive if you are honest and forthcoming about this whole Group Buy because people in turn will trust you fully without question. Just consider yourself a Captain of this Group Buy which is like a huge ship heading to a destination. If you are calm and collected the trip will be enjoyable and you shall have everyone running up to you asking 1000 questions, yet you answer them all with dignity and respect no matter what they ask.
Remember you set the tone for this whole venture and being a leader isn't easy, so ask yourself if you are up to the task before starting this because it will not be easy at all once it commences.
Post by: darkspider on Sun, 04 October 2015, 21:29:40
Post by: njbair on Mon, 05 October 2015, 08:41:42
I think Elrick is understandably cautious, having been burnt in the past. But he speaks for many community members for sure.Thanks Elrick - I expect to have these mostly assembled in China. It may be a good idea for me to also send the keys to China to be assembled. I will do the final testing though.
The MOST important thing to remember here is to ALWAYS keep in contact here on Geekhack and/or DT because nothing is worse than not hearing anything for months about this Group Buy, then all hell breaks loose and the lynching party starts to form easily.
You have to at least post once a week in this forum on the progression of this venture because it gives no one any haste about spending their money and being in this Group Buy. BunnyLake is the current KING of Group Buys because he goes way overboard in assuring everyone that everything is in hand and running as expected. Even if difficulties spring up (because they always do) talking about it here on this forum is far better than keeping it all to yourself.
You will be surprised the good will you shall receive if you are honest and forthcoming about this whole Group Buy because people in turn will trust you fully without question. Just consider yourself a Captain of this Group Buy which is like a huge ship heading to a destination. If you are calm and collected the trip will be enjoyable and you shall have everyone running up to you asking 1000 questions, yet you answer them all with dignity and respect no matter what they ask.
Remember you set the tone for this whole venture and being a leader isn't easy, so ask yourself if you are up to the task before starting this because it will not be easy at all once it commences.
He's right on, though, that communication is key. Whatever setbacks and obstacles you may face, silence is not the answer because people's imaginations are always 100x worse than reality, especially once that mob mentality sets in.
These people aren't dumb, so if you arm your buyers with information so that they know what's happening, and keep them in the loop, you will have a happy group. Also, always remember that it's better to under-promise and over-deliver.
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 05 October 2015, 17:18:13
I also plan on doing a bulk Unicomp order for new key sets, so I suggest ordering keys for your F77/F62 through me so that I can install them on your ordered keyboard and test the keys - otherwise I will need to install and then remove caps to test each keyboard.
Assuming a layout similar to a 1391401, It looks like each keyboard will require $34 in Unicomp key parts - 4 stabilizer inserts ($1.50 each), a spacebar ($3), and a key set ($25 printed key set or $20 unprinted key set). If there is a less expensive option please let me know - I asked if there was a bulk discount but they did not offer one.
Fair warning, Unicomp is out of right shift in black blank. And they do not plan on getting more in stock ever.
Post by: rowdy on Mon, 05 October 2015, 22:22:28
I also plan on doing a bulk Unicomp order for new key sets, so I suggest ordering keys for your F77/F62 through me so that I can install them on your ordered keyboard and test the keys - otherwise I will need to install and then remove caps to test each keyboard.
Assuming a layout similar to a 1391401, It looks like each keyboard will require $34 in Unicomp key parts - 4 stabilizer inserts ($1.50 each), a spacebar ($3), and a key set ($25 printed key set or $20 unprinted key set). If there is a less expensive option please let me know - I asked if there was a bulk discount but they did not offer one.
Fair warning, Unicomp is out of right shift in black blank. And they do not plan on getting more in stock ever.
:eek:
:(
Post by: atlas3686 on Tue, 06 October 2015, 05:57:31
I also plan on doing a bulk Unicomp order for new key sets, so I suggest ordering keys for your F77/F62 through me so that I can install them on your ordered keyboard and test the keys - otherwise I will need to install and then remove caps to test each keyboard.
Assuming a layout similar to a 1391401, It looks like each keyboard will require $34 in Unicomp key parts - 4 stabilizer inserts ($1.50 each), a spacebar ($3), and a key set ($25 printed key set or $20 unprinted key set). If there is a less expensive option please let me know - I asked if there was a bulk discount but they did not offer one.
Fair warning, Unicomp is out of right shift in black blank. And they do not plan on getting more in stock ever.
Almost had a heart attack fortunately for the HHKB style right shift we won't need a standard right shift but it sucks for everyone else :(
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 06 October 2015, 08:42:05
I also plan on doing a bulk Unicomp order for new key sets, so I suggest ordering keys for your F77/F62 through me so that I can install them on your ordered keyboard and test the keys - otherwise I will need to install and then remove caps to test each keyboard.
Assuming a layout similar to a 1391401, It looks like each keyboard will require $34 in Unicomp key parts - 4 stabilizer inserts ($1.50 each), a spacebar ($3), and a key set ($25 printed key set or $20 unprinted key set). If there is a less expensive option please let me know - I asked if there was a bulk discount but they did not offer one.
Fair warning, Unicomp is out of right shift in black blank. And they do not plan on getting more in stock ever.
Almost had a heart attack fortunately for the HHKB style right shift we won't need a standard right shift but it sucks for everyone else :(
Yup sorry about that. Should have mentioned ANSI right shift. And brilliant white is not available in their large size.
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Tue, 06 October 2015, 09:04:27
Next option might be a classic blank set or APL.
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 06 October 2015, 09:20:44
Ideally I would be interested in a black blank set, but have heard that they no longer make them. :(
Next option might be a classic blank set or APL.
They still have stock, just no ANSI right shift.
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Tue, 06 October 2015, 15:08:48
I must have missed it then. I could've swore it wasn't listed anymore. Too bad on the shift though.Ideally I would be interested in a black blank set, but have heard that they no longer make them. :(
Next option might be a classic blank set or APL.
They still have stock, just no ANSI right shift.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 08 October 2015, 21:43:29
Well anyways, who would have imagined we are up to 146 preorders after about three months?
Here is another photo showing the 6-32 thread hole on the bottom inner assembly. A 6-32 screw will be used to ground the PCB against the bottom inner assembly.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 08 October 2015, 22:00:35
I must have missed it then. I could've swore it wasn't listed anymore. Too bad on the shift though.Ideally I would be interested in a black blank set, but have heard that they no longer make them. :(
Next option might be a classic blank set or APL.
They still have stock, just no ANSI right shift.
This was as of a couple weeks ago when the Xtant plates shipped out.
Is there a downside to dyeing a regular color right shift key black to complete the set? Why can these blank right shift keys not be produced any longer in black?
Well anyways, who would have imagined we are up to 146 preorders after about three months?
Here is another photo showing the 6-32 thread hole on the bottom inner assembly. A 6-32 screw will be used to ground the PCB against the bottom inner assembly.
(Attachment Link)
Color matching with dye process can be problematic at best. Best bet would be to buy a full set in one color, or a color scheme you want regarding light and dark keys, and dye the full set.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 10 October 2015, 20:30:00
They said they do still offer the Industrial SSK blue keys (though in a slightly different shade of blue) and the SSK style number printing on the letter keys for the embedded num pad.
Post by: njbair on Sat, 10 October 2015, 21:23:20
I think Unicomp still offers the APL set but a support rep said they no longer offer their limited edition F1 etc. front printing on the number row keys, as of my support ticket from two months ago (they also said they don't offer black key sets so I'm not sure if it is correct).I recently ordered a replica SSK keycap through the Unicomp website. The caps look fine apart from a little bit of flashing along the bottom edges which they didn't bother to remove, but which is pretty much only visible from directly above. Also, the F3 was cracked so they had to send me a new one. The replacement was free, but the dyesub legend looks slightly different from the others in the set when closely examined.
They said they do still offer the Industrial SSK blue keys (though in a slightly different shade of blue) and the SSK style number printing on the letter keys for the embedded num pad.
Post by: djkib on Tue, 13 October 2015, 08:27:04
I have never been a fan of the smaller F77 of F62 layout, as I have always been a model M person, but I think I could grow to like it. I find I use the number pad less and less as time goes on...
Keep up the great work. I look forward to taking delivery when they are available...
Any way I can help?
Thanks for all you do!
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 13 October 2015, 17:56:31
An update - I was just able to order 5 used 1391401s for those who prefer to order original used IBM keycaps over Unicomp caps. The cost will likely be about the same as the Unicomp caps. Please let me know if you are interested in ordering original used caps with your F77/F62.
Post by: mobbo on Tue, 13 October 2015, 17:59:16
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 13 October 2015, 19:12:51
I'm interested in the original caps.
Same here....... :thumb:
Post by: SixtyLife on Tue, 13 October 2015, 19:25:35
anyways, just want to say thank you Ellipse for organizing this. Looking forward to this more than any other GBs right now!
Post by: darkspider on Tue, 13 October 2015, 20:08:39
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 13 October 2015, 20:27:50
Anyone can also ship their cleaned keys to me so the F77/F62s arrive to you fully assembled.
Here is a re-post of the design rendering:
[attachimg=1]
Post by: SixtyLife on Tue, 13 October 2015, 20:44:10
codingCPA - my custom styrofoam packaging is designed so that the springs will not be crushed and the keys will not be pressed in transit. The boxes will also be double walled, thick cardboard.looks like you've taken everything into consideration. really excited to see the final product. thanks again.
Anyone can also ship their cleaned keys to me so the F77/F62s arrive to you fully assembled.
Here is a re-post of the design rendering:
(Attachment Link)
Post by: Vizir on Tue, 13 October 2015, 21:46:45
Edit: can you post your shipping address, I have some spares I think would work, but I will not have time before the weekend to check if there's enough for 1 keyboard. Also, I have a spare f controller still sitting around and I doubt I'll have use for it after this. If you have better use for it, it's yours. Or maybe it can be used in this GB. I won't ask any price for it.
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 13 October 2015, 22:17:28
codingCPA - my custom styrofoam packaging is designed so that the springs will not be crushed and the keys will not be pressed in transit. The boxes will also be double walled, thick cardboard.
Anyone can also ship their cleaned keys to me so the F77/F62s arrive to you fully assembled.
Here is a re-post of the design rendering:
(Attachment Link)
Unbelievable, getting a fully fitted customized package for the MOST significant keyboard built in our times.
This is slowly becoming one of the BEST things to occur here on Geekhack 8) .
Post by: romevi on Tue, 13 October 2015, 22:48:20
This may be the best product reproduction by a single person, or at least small party. Forget crowd-funding; Ellipse is going to make this whether you order one or not.
Post by: Dodgy on Wed, 14 October 2015, 22:06:20
Post by: romevi on Wed, 14 October 2015, 22:18:15
Did invoices already go out? I'm worried I may have missed that in my email- want to make sure I definitely don't miss out on this one!!! :thumb:
Yeah, dude. People are already starting to get theirs.
Nah, just kidding. The final product hasn't even been shown. Invoices probably won't start going out until next month. :thumb:
Post by: Dodgy on Wed, 14 October 2015, 23:14:05
Post by: ryahirv on Thu, 15 October 2015, 01:35:35
Thanks djkib - if you are out of the US it would save some funds if you could do some proxying in your region/country.
An update - I was just able to order 5 used 1391401s for those who prefer to order original used IBM keycaps over Unicomp caps. The cost will likely be about the same as the Unicomp caps. Please let me know if you are interested in ordering original used caps with your F77/F62.
Ok. I changed my tune.
I too prefer original caps
Post by: potatowire on Thu, 15 October 2015, 20:28:03
I'm interested in the original caps.
Same here....... :thumb:
Me too...
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 16 October 2015, 19:08:59
[attachimg=1]
Also I received the 5 1391401 Model M keyboards today to be used for keys for those who prefer original keycaps on their F62/F77.
Anyone who wants one to five Model M 1391401 keyboards without keys/stabilizers/the cable can have them for $30 each plus shipping, or $35 with the SDL to PS/2 cable. The recycler tested them but I am selling them as uncleaned/untested.
First come, first served with these keyboards.
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 16 October 2015, 19:12:47
Post by: SixtyLife on Fri, 16 October 2015, 19:37:19
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 16 October 2015, 19:57:31
Post by: darkspider on Fri, 16 October 2015, 20:55:14
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 16 October 2015, 21:40:09
Nope no testing yet. I expect to receive the fully assembled prototypes in a few weeks, then I will fully test them.
Can't wait to finally see it assembled and working.
Making a Model-F from scratch is extremely time consuming because there is much more to creating a functional copy of the old IBMs other than the standard soldering of CherryMX switches.
Just let us all know when you finally have it working, plus when you post all the pics, I suspect every Geekhacker will be throwing money at you for these babies 8) .
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 16 October 2015, 21:45:15
Post by: U47 on Fri, 16 October 2015, 23:11:32
Also I received the 5 1391401 Model M keyboards today to be used for keys for those who prefer original keycaps on their F62/F77.
Anyone who wants one to five Model M 1391401 keyboards without keys/stabilizers/the cable can have them for $30 each plus shipping, or $35 with the SDL to PS/2 cable. The recycler tested them but I am selling them as uncleaned/untested.
First come, first served with these keyboards.
Can I dibs one of the Model Ms? Actually, is it possible to dibs it along with the keys (to go on an F62) or are the keys all spoken for?
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sat, 17 October 2015, 08:23:39
Is there any chance I can buy some barrels and flippers on their own?He's said yes to this before. I think we'll be able to buy extras of any parts being created for this project, including the custom fit boxes!
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 17 October 2015, 08:53:47
Post by: Air tree on Sun, 18 October 2015, 13:18:44
Post by: livingspeedbump on Sun, 18 October 2015, 13:52:48
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 20 October 2015, 15:30:55
The xwhatsit Model F USB controller is included/installed. Solenoids require the xwhatsit solenoid driver, currently available from DT member orihalcon. With this driver, the controller will support a solenoid to my knowledge.
And as long as it is a matter of moving springs and caps any layout should be configurable at the factory. Please let me know the requested layout specifics when ordering.
Post by: darkspider on Tue, 20 October 2015, 17:00:22
The xwhatsit Model F USB controller is included/installed. Solenoids require the xwhatsit solenoid driver, currently available from DT member orihalcon. With this driver, the controller will support a solenoid to my knowledge.Ordering solenoid driver is in option? Or should we contact him directly if we want?
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 20 October 2015, 17:20:15
The xwhatsit Model F USB controller is included/installed. Solenoids require the xwhatsit solenoid driver, currently available from DT member orihalcon. With this driver, the controller will support a solenoid to my knowledge.Ordering solenoid driver is in option? Or should we contact him directly if we want?
Solenoid driver is only required for using a solenoid. The solenoid is optional. It adds more click, and haptic feedback. The driver board is required to step the 5vdc from USB to 9vdc for a moment to actually cycle the solenoid. The xwhatsit firmware fully supports it in the GUI.
Post by: Vizir on Tue, 20 October 2015, 17:29:14
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 20 October 2015, 17:34:48
Post by: darkspider on Tue, 20 October 2015, 17:46:42
So you will we be able to order the solenoid driver from you? And where can we source a solenoid?In my knowledge, almost all of keyboards from IBM DisplayWriter and DisplayTerminal have working solenoid.
Ellipse-Thank you for the information. I'll contact him.
Post by: Vizir on Tue, 20 October 2015, 18:15:33
is this the correct solenoid? http://www.typewriters.com/1393901.html
or perhaps this? https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11015
Post by: darkspider on Tue, 20 October 2015, 19:10:27
hmm, now to source a solenoid...I once heard that xwhatsit saying sparkfun's is not good for the solenoid driver supplying 9vdc because its resistance is not enough to run it safely. And he also said its throw of 4mm is too much to run it without delay.
is this the correct solenoid? http://www.typewriters.com/1393901.html
or perhaps this? https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11015
Post by: Vizir on Tue, 20 October 2015, 19:12:33
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 21 October 2015, 18:33:24
[attachimg=1]
Post by: alienman82 on Wed, 21 October 2015, 21:20:43
Here's another photo just of the first production Model F barrels from the new mold (see my earlier post for the flippers).
(Attachment Link)
Awesome breh!
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Thu, 22 October 2015, 03:04:24
Here's another photo just of the first production Model F barrels from the new mold (see my earlier post for the flippers).
(Attachment Link)
It's a good thing this is gonna take some time, gives my wallet to charge up for this big boy :D
You're a swell guy for undertaking this great mission Ellipse! :thumb:
Post by: Air tree on Thu, 22 October 2015, 03:18:38
I thought at the beginning this was just some keyboard nerds pipe dream. :p
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 22 October 2015, 04:36:48
I can't wait to hear some thoughts on the board once it's all put together in it's full glory.
I thought at the beginning this was just some keyboard nerds pipe dream. :p
For some time wasters it will always be a pipe dream but not in Ellipse's World.
He hasn't got time to waste hence better create something REAL rather than being another lying scumbag, out to rip everyone off with some grand illusion (quite a few have already done that).
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 22 October 2015, 16:52:19
At this point we can bring further economies of scale and potentially lower pricing only if there are 400+ orders. We are at just over 150 preorders right now. We would have to get to 400+ for further economies of scale to allow for additional price reductions (making the cases with die cast molds instead of CNC machining them one by one as is currently planned).
With the current total preorders, pricing will definitely stay at $325 (bring your own keys) with the option to order brand new Unicomp or used IBM keys (I will try to get a group discount).
Techno Trousers over on DT made this excellent point and I hope we can have a few volunteers to help: "Has anyone approached any of the Korean enthusiast boards with this? Those guys seen to always have a lot of disposable income, and I'd think a lot of them would want to get in on something truly unique like this. Shame I don't speak the language." So far just Firebolt on DT has volunteered.
Post by: azhdar on Thu, 22 October 2015, 16:56:16
Will it be possible to get full touch short shift for this? I haven't read the thread entirely sorry.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 22 October 2015, 18:12:53
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 22 October 2015, 21:19:48
Thanks all for the kind words!
At this point we can bring further economies of scale and potentially lower pricing only if there are 400+ orders. We are at just over 150 preorders right now. We would have to get to 400+ for further economies of scale to allow for additional price reductions (making the cases with die cast molds instead of CNC machining them one by one as is currently planned).
With the current total preorders, pricing will definitely stay at $325 (bring your own keys) with the option to order brand new Unicomp or used IBM keys (I will try to get a group discount).
Techno Trousers over on DT made this excellent point and I hope we can have a few volunteers to help: "Has anyone approached any of the Korean enthusiast boards with this? Those guys seen to always have a lot of disposable income, and I'd think a lot of them would want to get in on something truly unique like this. Shame I don't speak the language." So far just Firebolt on DT has volunteered.
Have you considered the possibility of making batches of these for distribution to various keyboard vendors to sell?
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 23 October 2015, 20:45:23
I would definitely be open to anyone who wants to buy a number of these, wait a year or more, and then distribute them at cost or at a higher cost for a profit later (their choice). I'm sure as people start getting their F62s and F77s and posting photos after the order period closes there will be a lot more interest.
I was disappointed to have missed the original great find of the Kishsavers back in 2013/2014 and suggest anyone who's interested in trying one out buy one while they are still available. Given relatively few of these will be made compared to MX and other mechanical keyboards, I think they should at least hold their value or appreciate well into the future.
However I am interested in your suggestion to get some distributors involved, though they would need to sell these at a higher price to make a small profit I'm sure. Economies of scale from those extra units may push prices down if they order 250-300+ units.
Who are the main mechanical keyboard distributors? Does anyone have any contacts there?
Post by: pchatterjee on Fri, 23 October 2015, 21:03:36
Any possibility of a more modernized keyboard enclosure in aluminum or some other metal at a surcharge?
Post by: aznairjordan on Fri, 23 October 2015, 21:10:34
Rowdy my intention is for these F77/F62 keyboards to be a "one time only" deal. Everyone will have a month to order them (after prototypes are fully tested and photographed) and then the window will close. It has been a ton of work this year for me and for the engineers, professionals, and GH/DT forum members that have helped along the way. This was certainly not a "one man" project.
I would definitely be open to anyone who wants to buy a number of these, wait a year or more, and then distribute them at cost or at a higher cost for a profit later (their choice). I'm sure as people start getting their F62s and F77s and posting photos after the order period closes there will be a lot more interest.
I was disappointed to have missed the original great find of the Kishsavers back in 2013/2014 and suggest anyone who's interested in trying one out buy one while they are still available. Given relatively few of these will be made compared to MX and other mechanical keyboards, I think they should at least hold their value or appreciate well into the future.
However I am interested in your suggestion to get some distributors involved, though they would need to sell these at a higher price to make a small profit I'm sure. Economies of scale from those extra units may push prices down if they order 250-300+ units.
Who are the main mechanical keyboard distributors? Does anyone have any contacts there?
I definitely do not have any contacts but in the US, mechanicalkeyboards.com and elitekeyboards come to mind.
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 23 October 2015, 22:20:08
my intention is for these F77/F62 keyboards to be a "one time only" deal.
I hope you plan on keeping all the associated files etc. just in case you one day decide to do another run.
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 23 October 2015, 23:29:21
I definitely do not have any contacts but in the US, mechanicalkeyboards.com and elitekeyboards come to mind.
Stay away from Brian at Elitekeyboards that scumbag would sink your F62/F77 design because it will interfere with his own sales of junk keyboards.
Best go with Mechanical Keyboards because they are really decent compared to that douchebag at EK. If you want to deal with good, honest people best go with Mechanical Keyboards :thumb: .
Plus they frequently provide all sorts of keyboards to true enthusiasts worldwide with NO problems whatsoever, as you can tell I buy exclusively from them.
Post by: darkspider on Fri, 23 October 2015, 23:58:51
Unfortunately I've never have any contact with the owner and don't know whether he accepts individual offer. And because the seller is very small, he won't order very much though. But if you want, I can inform him about this project and products via e-mail on the site.
Post by: rowdy on Sat, 24 October 2015, 05:12:59
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sat, 24 October 2015, 08:58:56
Post by: dante on Sat, 24 October 2015, 09:23:46
I'd stay away from MassDrop for the following reason(s):
1. Their fullfilment center sucks. They make Amazon's look fantastic.
2. Multiple stories/rumors of them ripping off keycap designs with no credit/$$$ given to the creator.
3. Refusing to acknowledge defects in products prior to putting their order in (Varmilo 108's with the wrong side legends immediately comes to mind.)
In general, MD will throw a bone once in a blue moon for products that are rare and wouldn't be possible without them [Tao Hao Alps Doubleshots] - but in general they've turned into a dumping site for sub-par Chinese boards.
Post by: Zaskar on Sat, 24 October 2015, 13:45:38
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 24 October 2015, 15:25:32
Post by: darkspider on Sat, 24 October 2015, 19:01:30
Post by: rowdy on Sat, 24 October 2015, 19:37:10
Massdrop.com might be a possibility too? They seem like a great fit for a one-time-only production run, though I don't know anything about how they are to deal with from the vendor perspective.
Massdrop could be a possibility, especially to get the keyboards out to a wider audience.
However if their shipping is anything to go by, you'd better make a few extras to replace any that get damaged in transit.
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 24 October 2015, 19:39:05
They will likely be aluminum with colors close to the original off white or Industrial powdercoated paint, black, or another color (special order). I can also try to special order anodized/clear coat/non-powdercoated ones if you PM me ahead of time. They may cost a little more.
DEFINITELY, want to order an anodized casing just provide the colour chips, samples and whatnot, for our selection and it should be done. Had experienced with powder coating in the past very uneven and the coating is sometimes quite thin depending upon the person spraying it in a booth. Also powder coating can chip or wear away from constant use and it can also deteriorate in the sunshine due to the UV.
Don't care if you only offer one or two choices in colour, as long as it's fully anodized :thumb: .
Post by: dante on Sun, 25 October 2015, 09:19:24
Unless you enjoy the idea of your blood, sweat, and tears being banged up in transit due to insufficient/careless packing.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 25 October 2015, 09:35:31
Post by: njbair on Sun, 25 October 2015, 12:26:38
Ellipse if you decide that MassDrop is the best choice for this - please somehow work out a way to avoid their fullfilment center.There is precedent for this. The recent Planck buy is being fulfilled directly by Ortholinear keyboards. Jack has been in constant communication with the buyers every step of the way, and I have more confidence in the outcome than I've ever had from a Massdrop buy.
Unless you enjoy the idea of your blood, sweat, and tears being banged up in transit due to insufficient/careless packing.
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 25 October 2015, 18:48:55
dante - I will be personally testing and mailing each one ordered directly through my order form. They are also shipping in custom made styrofoam and a double-walled cardboard box.
BRILLIANT. please post it here when you'll start accepting full payments up front for your F77 keyboards :thumb: .
Love that you have full fitting packaging to go with your item because it's needed, especially when it starts traveling to distant convict settlements.
Post by: Kola93 on Mon, 26 October 2015, 03:17:06
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 26 October 2015, 03:57:54
What do you plan to use for the exterior coating or anodizing? Very ambitious project but very exciting at the same time. ^-^
For me it's always ANODIZED but I'm willing to change my mind, if he shows us some other coatings able to last the entire lifetime of your average geekhacker.
Post by: Cods on Mon, 26 October 2015, 04:12:41
Sigh.
Nevertheless, as a lover of the Model M buckling springs in both industrial and in SSK form, given the rare opportunity I see no choice but to sample the delights of Model F flippity flappity beamsprings in smaller than battleship formats.
Ellipse, I've signed up on your form for one of each, tell me where to entrust my money and will appreciate the packaging as these eventually wend their way to the Antipodes.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 26 October 2015, 21:36:13
The factory is doing some pre-assembly testing of the prototype parts to make sure they fit together - the top/bottom inner assembly, barrels/flippers, and mylar sheet placement (the clear mylar sheet prevents the PCB from touching the steel bottom inner assembly, which could cause a capacitance issue). The foam and the case are not yet ready.
The prototype cases should be completed in 1-2 weeks hopefully and I expect to receive the prototype within 3-4 weeks from now. If a bunch of you hurry with sending payment in the first week after prototypes are fully tested, I may do them in two batches: all orders placed in the first week or two, and then all orders in the remaining two weeks. So the first batch may arrive by Christmas if we do that. Though this would not happen if there is not a big enough order batch to place after the first two weeks. I know there is a lot of hope to get these by Christmas :)
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: ryahirv on Mon, 26 October 2015, 22:07:16
Probably a dumb question, but are the layouts and keycaps essentially identical to the originals?
Or is there a rendering of precisely what the 2 new models will look like?
Thanks!
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Mon, 26 October 2015, 22:11:08
Kola the exterior will be powdercoated with paint in something close to the original "off white" or Industrial Gray options. Anodizing may not happen or it may be a more costly option if you want it. I don't know the anodizing options - if anyone ordering an F62 or F77 is thinking of the anodizing option and has any preferences please let me know.
The factory is doing some pre-assembly testing of the prototype parts to make sure they fit together - the top/bottom inner assembly, barrels/flippers, and mylar sheet placement (the clear mylar sheet prevents the PCB from touching the steel bottom inner assembly, which could cause a capacitance issue). The foam and the case are not yet ready.
The prototype cases should be completed in 1-2 weeks hopefully and I expect to receive the prototype within 3-4 weeks from now. If a bunch of you hurry with sending payment in the first week after prototypes are fully tested, I may do them in two batches: all orders placed in the first week or two, and then all orders in the remaining two weeks. So the first batch may arrive by Christmas if we do that. Though this would not happen if there is not a big enough order batch to place after the first two weeks. I know there is a lot of hope to get these by Christmas :)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
These are looking great! Really looking forward to getting my hands on one!
Post by: SixtyLife on Mon, 26 October 2015, 22:34:09
Kola the exterior will be powdercoated with paint in something close to the original "off white" or Industrial Gray options. Anodizing may not happen or it may be a more costly option if you want it. I don't know the anodizing options - if anyone ordering an F62 or F77 is thinking of the anodizing option and has any preferences please let me know.oh ****... so psyched for this!!!
The factory is doing some pre-assembly testing of the prototype parts to make sure they fit together - the top/bottom inner assembly, barrels/flippers, and mylar sheet placement (the clear mylar sheet prevents the PCB from touching the steel bottom inner assembly, which could cause a capacitance issue). The foam and the case are not yet ready.
The prototype cases should be completed in 1-2 weeks hopefully and I expect to receive the prototype within 3-4 weeks from now. If a bunch of you hurry with sending payment in the first week after prototypes are fully tested, I may do them in two batches: all orders placed in the first week or two, and then all orders in the remaining two weeks. So the first batch may arrive by Christmas if we do that. Though this would not happen if there is not a big enough order batch to place after the first two weeks. I know there is a lot of hope to get these by Christmas :)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 26 October 2015, 22:36:09
This means you could also use regular extra wide Enter, backspace, and shift keys or a vertical ISO style Enter key - these are all supported in an original Kishsaver/F77 and in these units.
Post by: darkspider on Tue, 27 October 2015, 05:22:16
They will likely be aluminum with colors close to the original off white or Industrial powdercoated paint, black, or another color (special order). I can also try to special order anodized/clear coat/non-powdercoated ones if you PM me ahead of time. They may cost a little more.When you think is/will be the deadline to PM you for the special coloring order?
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 27 October 2015, 06:56:12
The prototype cases should be completed in 1-2 weeks hopefully and I expect to receive the prototype within 3-4 weeks from now. If a bunch of you hurry with sending payment in the first week after prototypes are fully tested, I may do them in two batches: all orders placed in the first week or two, and then all orders in the remaining two weeks. So the first batch may arrive by Christmas if we do that. Though this would not happen if there is not a big enough order batch to place after the first two weeks. I know there is a lot of hope to get these by Christmas :)
If you are worried that the order numbers won't be there due to individual tastes being so varied have no fear, I will buy anything you produce off the assembly line regardless of which colour is applied to the first batch of F77s.
This is the absolute FIRST production run and we here in Geekhack land know how valuable they will be as time moves on. Just like the first rare editions of Korean Keyboards that are now unavailable to get, unless you're happy to hand over $1300USD as a minimum.
Your keyboards will eventually fetch that range of price quite easily due their rugged construction and being the first NEW Model F Capacitives produced in a very long time. This keyboard shall out live me, so my kids and grand kids will appreciate what was done here in 2015 to resurrect a classic IBM keyboard, something that will be truly cherished.
Post by: wyatt8740 on Tue, 27 October 2015, 12:37:31
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 27 October 2015, 12:43:48
(wasn't sure if there might be a layered control scheme for that like HHKB or something?)
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Tue, 27 October 2015, 12:47:30
Probably a dumb question, but there won't be a way to have any arrow keys on the smaller model I'm assuming?
(wasn't sure if there might be a layered control scheme for that like HHKB or something?)
The xwhatsits controller allows for multiple layers, so you will be able to set it up in a fn layer if you want to.
Post by: romevi on Tue, 27 October 2015, 12:48:18
Probably a dumb question, but there won't be a way to have any arrow keys on the smaller model I'm assuming?
(wasn't sure if there might be a layered control scheme for that like HHKB or something?)
The xwhatsits controller allows for multiple layers, so you will be able to set it up in a fn layer if you want to.
Wow. I honestly did not know that. I may consider the 62 instead of the 77 now.
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Tue, 27 October 2015, 12:49:28
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58138.0
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 27 October 2015, 13:15:57
Probably a dumb question, but there won't be a way to have any arrow keys on the smaller model I'm assuming?
(wasn't sure if there might be a layered control scheme for that like HHKB or something?)
The xwhatsits controller allows for multiple layers, so you will be able to set it up in a fn layer if you want to.
Sensational news… Thank you!
Wow. I honestly did not know that. I may consider the 62 instead of the 77 now.
Yep - Me too - Although I think I will buy one of each so I can decide in person ultimately (and I want to support this SUPERB project - SO SO excited about this!)
Post by: theginginator on Tue, 27 October 2015, 14:00:19
Post by: E TwentyNine on Tue, 27 October 2015, 14:14:58
The layout options are the same as the original, or you can choose an option for a split right shift, which means one or two barrels just for that option are in a slightly different place. This requires a separate top inner assembly. You can also buy both top inner assembly pieces if you would like the option to someday switch between regular right shift and split right shift.
I'm not understanding why this would need two separate top plates. Aren't the barrel locations the same just which ones are populated differ?
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 27 October 2015, 14:24:45
The layout options are the same as the original, or you can choose an option for a split right shift, which means one or two barrels just for that option are in a slightly different place. This requires a separate top inner assembly. You can also buy both top inner assembly pieces if you would like the option to someday switch between regular right shift and split right shift.
I'm not understanding why this would need two separate top plates. Aren't the barrel locations the same just which ones are populated differ?
It has to do with the offset of where the barrels are. With the usual split the one unit and the other would be backwards.
Post by: E TwentyNine on Tue, 27 October 2015, 14:39:40
The layout options are the same as the original, or you can choose an option for a split right shift, which means one or two barrels just for that option are in a slightly different place. This requires a separate top inner assembly. You can also buy both top inner assembly pieces if you would like the option to someday switch between regular right shift and split right shift.
I'm not understanding why this would need two separate top plates. Aren't the barrel locations the same just which ones are populated differ?
It has to do with the offset of where the barrels are. With the usual split the one unit and the other would be backwards.
Got a pointer to a diagram/picture of the difference?
Post by: Zaskar on Tue, 27 October 2015, 20:36:20
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 27 October 2015, 20:49:44
Post by: Zaskar on Tue, 27 October 2015, 21:02:28
Unfortunately no group buy on the HHKB key, but you can buy a 3D printed one from Shapeways. Not sure if anyone has tested one: http://www.shapeways.com/product/YMFXWFRAK/ibm-model-m-keycap-1-75-non-stepped-v2
Oh thats cool!
Do you know if Unicomp still sells Japanese keycap sets in unprinted (or printed)? Didn't see it on their site but that might just be because its an english site.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 28 October 2015, 06:24:23
Post by: darkspider on Wed, 28 October 2015, 08:58:12
Any chance I could buy just a model F sized spring? I have a bad one on my current Model F and don't really like the kishaver form, but do need a new spring.Yes, you can. He said we can order any kinda extra parts that used in the boards' assembly.
Post by: Vizir on Wed, 28 October 2015, 12:23:27
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 28 October 2015, 16:59:13
Post by: fanpeople on Wed, 28 October 2015, 18:44:26
Vizir I do not believe so - can anyone confirm if they have been able to add a solenoid to their original Kishsaver F62?
I can't confirm but I can provide some photos with measurements of the solenoid and driver if that helps
More
[attach=1]
More
[attach=2]
More
[attach=3]
Post by: Vizir on Thu, 29 October 2015, 03:43:53
Vizir I do not believe so - can anyone confirm if they have been able to add a solenoid to their original Kishsaver F62?It had completely skipped my mind, and when your question didn't get a proper reply on DT, I thought I'd ask here.
Oh well.
Post by: wyatt8740 on Thu, 29 October 2015, 18:27:33
Yes, you can. He said we can order any kinda extra parts that used in the boards' assembly.So what do I have to do to get one of these? I've never done a group buy or anything like that before.
On another note, why new kishavers? why not new SSK's with the Model F assembly? The bezel just about makes a kishaver the size of a Model M SSK, anyway.
Post by: SixtyLife on Thu, 29 October 2015, 18:36:44
a lot of people (including myself) love the 60% format and kishsaver is the only model f that has this. the F77 which is also part of this gb is pretty similar to the ssk anyways (only lacks the F row) so you could go for one of those.Yes, you can. He said we can order any kinda extra parts that used in the boards' assembly.So what do I have to do to get one of these? I've never done a group buy or anything like that before.
On another note, why new kishavers? why not new SSK's with the Model F assembly? The bezel just about makes a kishaver the size of a Model M SSK, anyway.
Post by: darkspider on Thu, 29 October 2015, 18:57:38
This gb hasn't started yet. Ask ellipse if you are worried about the way to buy.Yes, you can. He said we can order any kinda extra parts that used in the boards' assembly.So what do I have to do to get one of these? I've never done a group buy or anything like that before.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 29 October 2015, 19:52:39
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 31 October 2015, 16:08:59
Post by: atlas3686 on Sat, 31 October 2015, 18:45:55
Regarding black keys from Unicomp, a note from 0100010 over on DT: Unicomp still has blank black sets, just missing Right Shift. Though with the HHKB-ish layout with this F62, custom order a set with an additional black caps lock key [and a 1u black key] and you'd be set.
That's great news, so to confirm we should order this separately ourselves?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 31 October 2015, 19:04:21
I intend to order the key sets directly from Unicomp and have them factory installed on the keyboards in China for those who want me to, no extra charge for installation, but the black sets may no longer be in stock in a month.
For those who want key sets, would you prefer to order the extra keys for a complete 101 key set or would you just prefer the ~62 or ~77 keys only? Maybe the set with fewer keys would be less expensive. Unicomp currently charges $25 for the keys not including the space bar, $3 for the space bar, and $1.50 for each of the 4 required stabilizer inserts for the 2 shift, Enter, and backspace keys.
If anyone knows someone at Unicomp and can negotiate a lower bulk price with them please let me know. I asked support and they seemed not to be willing to do so.
Post by: aznairjordan on Sat, 31 October 2015, 19:41:13
Post by: darkspider on Sat, 31 October 2015, 19:43:41
You mean, if we want to order black blanks, we should order them from Unicomp personally and send them to you, right?
Post by: Melvang on Sat, 31 October 2015, 20:23:52
I want to order a black blank keyset for F62 with 2 capslocks then.
You mean, if we want to order black blanks, we should order them from Unicomp personally and send them to you, right?
Unicomp does not have right shift in black blank.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 31 October 2015, 20:31:34
Post by: darkspider on Sat, 31 October 2015, 20:47:31
A guy on DT said Unicomp has some stock of black blank capslock. So we can use them instead of genuine right shift if we prefer HHKBish right shift.
--Ellipse
I'm happy if group order possible, because personally it'll costs much to ship them for me. Moreover, they seem not to have an option to order individual black blank capslock.
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 01 November 2015, 10:48:26
--Melvang
A guy on DT said Unicomp has some stock of black blank capslock. So we can use them instead of genuine right shift if we prefer HHKBish right shift.
Fair warning, Unicomp also has a $.50 premium on all blank black keys over 1u as well.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 02 November 2015, 16:41:42
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 03 November 2015, 19:06:11
Also I finally found a good strain relief P clip to use for the USB cable - it will be metal like the original.
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 03 November 2015, 19:47:31
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 04 November 2015, 16:39:35
Instead of the plastic spacebar tabs of the Model F keyboards, I am using custom-made steel tabs that will be attached to the top inner assembly. The tabs can be bought separately if you want to repair your old Model F keyboard space bar (not for XT's or AT's).
They are also sized to accommodate a Model M spacebar.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: ctm on Wed, 04 November 2015, 20:56:11
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 04 November 2015, 22:48:47
In a month or so I do suggest buying one F62 or F77 if you want one because these are going out of production after the order period of about a month, and the price will be inevitably inflated after that - you will only be able to find one of these, if at all, from people buying extras to keep NIB and maybe sell years later (which I encourage as every order helps ensure the price stays at $325 as it is now!). We are already at 170+ preorders.
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 05 November 2015, 04:09:07
Yep ctm this project is on the higher end of custom keyboards because it is lots of metal and I had to pay for all the tooling, CNC milling and molds. Another forum member pointed out that the Cherry MX and other custom keyboard projects have lower production costs as the individual key mechanisms are pre-made, unlike the Model F components.
In a month or so I do suggest buying one F62 or F77 if you want one because these are going out of production after the order period of about a month, and the price will be inevitably inflated after that - you will only be able to find one of these, if at all, from people buying extras to keep NIB and maybe sell years later (which I encourage as every order helps ensure the price stays at $325 as it is now!). We are already at 170+ preorders.
Exactly, this requires a lot of effort to happen and you've went beyond what Unicomp would ever do.
I for one will be buying the F77 at the lowest price when it's finally released by you Ellipse, so you can count on that order for sure on being paid for up front. Knew this would be a ONE time only production of perhaps the rarest keyboard that will ever be made, for us keyboard addicts.
ALWAYS keep us informed of when you'll need the final money for these keyboards 8) .
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 05 November 2015, 16:50:29
Post by: livingspeedbump on Thu, 05 November 2015, 16:53:19
Yep ctm this project is on the higher end of custom keyboards because it is lots of metal and I had to pay for all the tooling, CNC milling and molds. Another forum member pointed out that the Cherry MX and other custom keyboard projects have lower production costs as the individual key mechanisms are pre-made, unlike the Model F components.
In a month or so I do suggest buying one F62 or F77 if you want one because these are going out of production after the order period of about a month, and the price will be inevitably inflated after that - you will only be able to find one of these, if at all, from people buying extras to keep NIB and maybe sell years later (which I encourage as every order helps ensure the price stays at $325 as it is now!). We are already at 170+ preorders.
Exactly, this requires a lot of effort to happen and you've went beyond what Unicomp would ever do.
I for one will be buying the F77 at the lowest price when it's finally released by you Ellipse, so you can count on that order for sure on being paid for up front. Knew this would be a ONE time only production of perhaps the rarest keyboard that will ever be made, for us keyboard addicts.
ALWAYS keep us informed of when you'll need the final money for these keyboards 8) .
I will definitely jump in on this as well.
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 05 November 2015, 17:59:58
ok Elrick - the order form should be opened by next Friday at the earliest, after I receive and test the prototypes.
Oh DAMN, you've moistened my nether region with this sexy talk of "ORDER FORM".
How appropriate it shall be, making an Order on Friday the 13th next week ;) .
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 05 November 2015, 20:56:43
Soon after the prototypes arrive and have been photographed/tested, the greatest help that can be offered is in getting the word out on these keyboards and maybe getting distributors and the press/bloggers interested in these keyboards. This is probably the most important part to the success of this project. If anyone has expertise or can offer their help in any of those fields please do chat with me over PM.
Post by: ryahirv on Thu, 05 November 2015, 21:32:18
There was a question over on DT regarding birthdate labels. I will include labels with birthdates and serial numbers. They will be similar to the original silver-colored 4704 labels but with no logo.
Soon after the prototypes arrive and have been photographed/tested, the greatest help that can be offered is in getting the word out on these keyboards and maybe getting distributors and the press/bloggers interested in these keyboards. This is probably the most important part to the success of this project. If anyone has expertise or can offer their help in any of those fields please do chat with me over PM.
Can we get our orders in before the press spreads the word like wildfire? :-)
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 05 November 2015, 22:42:00
Soon after the prototypes arrive and have been photographed/tested, the greatest help that can be offered is in getting the word out on these keyboards and maybe getting distributors and the press/bloggers interested in these keyboards. This is probably the most important part to the success of this project.
Once you post completed keyboard pictures ready for shipment, you shall see an avalanche of orders my friend. Simply because these keyboards are unique in this world with no other input device giving that exact same feel and operation as a F62/F77 keyboard.
Also you will build these keyboards to last for someone's actual life meaning that if an 18 year old youngster buys it now, 80 years into the future the Ellipse keyboard will still keep on typing perfectly. I shall never be giving up on keyboards no matter what other fancy tech develops into the future.
A Model-F is something you hold onto for life and treasure it immensely, especially if it's an Ellipse :thumb: .
Post by: livingspeedbump on Thu, 05 November 2015, 22:50:23
Soon after the prototypes arrive and have been photographed/tested, the greatest help that can be offered is in getting the word out on these keyboards and maybe getting distributors and the press/bloggers interested in these keyboards. This is probably the most important part to the success of this project.
Once you post completed keyboard pictures ready for shipment, you shall see an avalanche of orders my friend. Simply because these keyboards are unique in this world with no other input device giving that exact same feel and operation as a F62/F77 keyboard.
Also you will build these keyboards to last for someone's actual life meaning that if an 18 year old youngster buys it now, 80 years into the future the Ellipse keyboard will still keep on typing perfectly. I shall never be giving up on keyboards no matter what other fancy tech develops into the future.
A Model-F is something you hold onto for life and treasure it immensely, especially if it's an Ellipse :thumb: .
I do think there will be a heap of orders as long as its in the ballpark price range as estimated.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 05 November 2015, 23:02:03
ryahirv I will post a link on the forums right after the order forms open up, so those on the forums will be first to know about it. I expect to assign serial numbers just about in the sequence of receiving the orders.
And yes livingspeedbump the $325 price has been finalized for the "bring your own keys" crowd. The cost of keys will be passed along from whatever Unicomp charges, which is about $25 and up depending on what options you would like (split shift, black blank keys, APL keys, RGB modifiers, F1 etc. front printing on the numbered caps, etc.). I will do a group buy to ship and install all the keys for those interested (factory installation in China will be no extra charge). I also have 5 sets of original used Model M keys available and I hope to get more if there is demand for it.
Post by: livingspeedbump on Thu, 05 November 2015, 23:25:49
And yes livingspeedbump the $325 price has been finalized for the "bring your own keys" crowd. The cost of keys will be passed along from whatever Unicomp charges, which is about $25 and up depending on what options you would like (split shift, black blank keys, APL keys, RGB modifiers, F1 etc. front printing on the numbered caps, etc.). I will do a group buy to ship and install all the keys for those interested (factory installation in China will be no extra charge). I also have 5 sets of original used Model M keys available and I hope to get more if there is demand for it.
Very good news!! Count me as a definite :thumb:
Post by: Bevo on Thu, 05 November 2015, 23:56:27
And yes livingspeedbump the $325 price has been finalized for the "bring your own keys" crowd. The cost of keys will be passed along from whatever Unicomp charges, which is about $25 and up depending on what options you would like (split shift, black blank keys, APL keys, RGB modifiers, F1 etc. front printing on the numbered caps, etc.). I will do a group buy to ship and install all the keys for those interested (factory installation in China will be no extra charge). I also have 5 sets of original used Model M keys available and I hope to get more if there is demand for it.
Very good news!! Count me as a definite :thumb:
I'm 89.6% in
Post by: darkspider on Fri, 06 November 2015, 00:21:45
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 06 November 2015, 00:35:45
And yes livingspeedbump the $325 price has been finalized for the "bring your own keys" crowd. The cost of keys will be passed along from whatever Unicomp charges, which is about $25 and up depending on what options you would like (split shift, black blank keys, APL keys, RGB modifiers, F1 etc. front printing on the numbered caps, etc.). I will do a group buy to ship and install all the keys for those interested (factory installation in China will be no extra charge). I also have 5 sets of original used Model M keys available and I hope to get more if there is demand for it.
Still a very tasty price tag compared to past Kmac orders and whatnot.
Very reasonable BUT I would like a COMPLETE price tag with shipping because this baby has to be made by you with all the keys attached and the keyboard would be 100% functioning, ready to be shipped out as soon as possible.
Costing for an F77 to be shipped to Australia would be extremely nice :thumb: .
Post by: atlas3686 on Fri, 06 November 2015, 00:45:29
Thanks for the kind words Elrick! I do hope that these keyboards survive the test of time. So many products people buy today develop issues in a few months' or years' time and are meant to be disposed of; it is great to be able to buy something made today that you can use every day and it will be there for you to use 10, 20, 30 years from now. I hope this F77/F62 project will be like that. I do not want to compromise a project like this by lowering standards and cutting corners to make it inferior to an original because it is something I want to be able to use and something that is on par with my original Model F keyboards that I use daily - that is why I will end up spending $50,000 or more on this project for materials and production processes that meet or exceed original standards and tolerances, including lots of metal!
ryahirv I will post a link on the forums right after the order forms open up, so those on the forums will be first to know about it. I expect to assign serial numbers just about in the sequence of receiving the orders.
And yes livingspeedbump the $325 price has been finalized for the "bring your own keys" crowd. The cost of keys will be passed along from whatever Unicomp charges, which is about $25 and up depending on what options you would like (split shift, black blank keys, APL keys, RGB modifiers, F1 etc. front printing on the numbered caps, etc.). I will do a group buy to ship and install all the keys for those interested (factory installation in China will be no extra charge). I also have 5 sets of original used Model M keys available and I hope to get more if there is demand for it.
So you saying if we want single digit serial numbers we need to get in really early with a paid order :) Gonna have to watch the threads carefully from next Friday onwards!
Post by: ryahirv on Fri, 06 November 2015, 06:42:10
ryahirv I will post a link on the forums right after the order forms open up, so those on the forums will be first to know about it. I expect to assign serial numbers just about in the sequence of receiving the orders.
Superb! I'm ready! :-)
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 06 November 2015, 19:28:59
Elrick I expect to pass along exact shipping charges according to USPS.com. You can approximate the cost on that web site in the future, but not just yet because we do not yet know the final weight of the package. The costs will be a lot less if I ship a few orders to each country (outside the US) and then have someone volunteer to mail them locally (that is if you trust them!). And yes everything will be essentially plug and play, though you may need to do some tinkering with the keyboard such as re-seating springs moved around in shipping, adjusting the default configuration in the GUI, etc. I expect to program the layouts into each keyboard so you do not have to.
Yes atlas the earlier ones will get the lower serial numbers. The single digits will probably be reserved for high level product supporters who volunteer to help contribute extra towards the tooling costs. If there is a bad production batch we could run into extra costs and delays - there is always a risk of that, especially with literally so many moving pieces.
And some more updates and notes copied from my DT post:
the split right shift keyboards. They require separate PCB and top inner assembly designs, which have all been completed. A very generous forum member volunteered his time to design the PCBs and spent extra time making an adjusted design for the split shift F77 and F62 crowd.
Someone has offered a 3D printed non-stepped short caps lock key, which is probably the best we can do if you don't want a stepped caps lock style key for the short right shift - I am not sure if this will work but each key is about $6. http://www.shapeways.com/product/YMFXWFRAK/ibm-model-m-keycap-1-75-non-stepped-v2?li=shop-results&optionId=40367439
Muirium I expect to take photos of the different suggested layouts once the prototypes arrive.
romevi you'd need to pick split right shift as an option, as it is a different PCB and top inner assembly. To switch back to the non-split shift in the future you'd need to at least buy the "regular" PCB and top inner assembly pieces, or preferably another F77/F62 keyboard :)
wcass is correct that the factory can configure flipper/spring placements for ISO/ANSI enter keys, short left/right shifts, and short/long backspace keys. You can even special request other vertical keys for the extra 15 key area of the F77s, such as a + or Enter key if you so choose, as the barrels support such a configuration.
I expect to make a detailed PayPal order form allowing multiple choice selections for these options, plus a section for inputting notes.
Any advice for the best free website designer? Some of the marketing advice I received mentioned I should make a web site.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 06 November 2015, 19:31:36
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=1]
Post by: njbair on Fri, 06 November 2015, 20:02:08
Post by: heedpantsnow on Fri, 06 November 2015, 21:18:56
Someone let CPT know we've got "machining porn" in here!
Oh man it's my favorite kind
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 07 November 2015, 03:16:29
Someone let CPT know we've got "machining porn" in here!
Oh man it's my favorite kind
Time to break out a new KY Bottle ;D .
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 08 November 2015, 09:32:21
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 09 November 2015, 18:14:42
No updates yet from the factory. Hopefully everything ships out this week or early next week.
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Mon, 09 November 2015, 23:50:37
What exactly is a Kishsaver? And why is it so rare?
When I first stumbled upon this post I assumed you were actually making SSK's at first haha and then I realized everyone was talking about something much different. I began googling, but all I kept getting were vague restoration threads on DT and GH and none of them provided a clear answer as to what they were. Eventually I found Kishy's site and learned a bit about these types of Model F's, but the one question I didn't get answered was why they're rare?
HHKB layout and Unicomp caps
Saw a little gif trying to explain the difference in layout, but still couldn't get an idea of it. You mentioned you'd show the different layouts on the prototypes, but could anyone else elaborate on this? Also due to these different layout a smaller caps key and a 1u key are needed for the right side, but something about Unicomp not having black blanks makes 3D printing the option. Does Unicomp also sell beige/white and could I just get those colors? Also could anyone give a good approximation of how their caps feel?
Re-runs
You mentioned before that you might look into kickstarter as a possible way to re-run this, but then in later posts you iterate how this was a long process and this would be a one and done kinda deal. Would the kickstarter be a thing or is this officially a one and done?
Payment
I'm assuming orders will become open around this Friday if everything goes according to plan and I know you're gonna go through PayPal, so I wanted to know, will I be able to use PayPal credit to pay for these boards? Honestly After reading through this whole post I'm pretty hyped about these boards, and the rarity of them, knowing it's possibly my only chance, makes me literally want to sell every single item in my possession just to own these two babies haha :p
Solenoid and Box Art
It was really brief, but there was mention of something called a "solenoid". What is it and how does it affect the board? You responded with "haptic feedback", so does that mean it rumbles the board at each key press? Were these common is original F62/F77's? Also if you're still interested in doing something for that box art I found this little image:
[attachimg=1]
Sorry if this is a long post! Just wanted to get some things clarified :D I'm really excited to see these prototypes when they come in! Once again thank you for undertaking this task to bring an old board back to life!
Edit: Forgot to mention the ellipse box art picture is because your name is Ellipse :p and someone mentioned red would be a cool color. I could only find pink though :(
Post by: romevi on Tue, 10 November 2015, 00:01:03
Post by: Techno Trousers on Tue, 10 November 2015, 00:09:53
Post by: darkspider on Tue, 10 November 2015, 00:53:06
What is it and how does it affect the board?As you say, a solenoid is activeted each key press and gives us clicky feedback. To run them in boards Ellipse try to manufacture, you need solenoid driver, which is available from orihalcon a member of both GH and DT. In my knowledge solenoids are not originated in original F62/77 and 107, but in more old style of keyboards like beamsprings. And they have buzzer instead.
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 10 November 2015, 00:57:26
The short answer on the rarity of the IBM 4704 Model F keyboards is they were made for banking. Due to the nature of banking equipment, it is almost always destroyed when taken out of service. I believe there are fewer than 200 of the 62 key "kishsaver" keyboards remaining, and possibly even fewer of the 77 and 88(?) key models. A lot of keyboard enthusiasts prefer 60% keyboards, hence all the hype for Kishsavers, which are the only Model F keyboards in that form factor.
There are only two known specimens of the 77 key in the keyboard community.
Post by: tribade on Tue, 10 November 2015, 02:39:13
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 10 November 2015, 06:45:54
For the HHKB style layout please look up a photo of a HHKB. The biggest change is to imagine the right shift key replaced with a caps lock key and a regular key the size of a letter - some prefer this layout but it requires a separate production as the barrels need to be moved a little in the right shift area.
Unicomp has black blanks but does not have right shift black blank keys. 3d printing is only required if you want your HHKB style keyboard to have a non-stepped shift key (one that does not look like a caps lock key).
I have not decided on kickstarter yet. I prefer direct orders. I may do kickstarter for this run as an optional choice just to get more interest before the orders close. Yes you can pay by credit card. You do not need to create a PayPal acct.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 10 November 2015, 16:55:52
As one option I will offer some McMaster Carr cork feet.
Would people want screwed on bumper bottoms like these: http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-rubber-bumpers/=zr655b These would probably only work for the upper 2 due to the length of the threads. Would people want all 4 drilled or just 2?
Post by: cjhard on Tue, 10 November 2015, 17:34:20
I think the McMaster Carr links just dump you at the Standard Rubber Bumpers page
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 10 November 2015, 19:08:18
Let's discuss keyboard feet: what do people want to order? Please list product links like those from McMaster-Carr or the like.
As one option I will offer some McMaster Carr cork feet.
Would people want screwed on bumper bottoms like these: http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-rubber-bumpers/=zr655b (http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-rubber-bumpers/=zr655b) These would probably only work for the upper 2 due to the length of the threads. Would people want all 4 drilled or just 2?
I would prefer just normal all Silicone adhesive feet because they last longer than any Cork material due to high temperatures and low humidity (my environment).
Cork tends to break and splinter into bits over time so it eventually will fall apart when you move the keyboard off it's smooth surface.
Post by: Ir0n on Wed, 11 November 2015, 00:16:35
Also why do some of these have like a super tiny enter key? Lol will this have normal sizes?
Post by: darkspider on Wed, 11 November 2015, 02:16:58
And this product will support any style of layout which is supported in original F62/77 according to Ellipse.
Post by: Ir0n on Wed, 11 November 2015, 02:26:36
Xwhatsit makes it possible to assign any function to any physical key.
And this product will support any style of layout which is supported in original F62/77 according to Ellipse.
Thanks friend!
Post by: romevi on Wed, 11 November 2015, 07:38:25
Post by: raymogi on Wed, 11 November 2015, 07:40:38
Post by: aznairjordan on Wed, 11 November 2015, 09:02:20
Post by: romevi on Wed, 11 November 2015, 09:17:10
After reading the interview on reddit.. I think I may end up getting both the kishsaver and f77 :)
Man, it's getting harder and harder for me to order just one. I'd love to own both, but I've got so many GBs going on right now that I have to choose one.
Post by: heedpantsnow on Wed, 11 November 2015, 09:55:47
After reading the interview on reddit.. I think I may end up getting both the kishsaver and f77 :)
Is this the one?:
http://roastpotatoes.github.io/news/2015/11/11/the-kishsaver-f62-and-f77-revival-project/
Post by: ryahirv on Wed, 11 November 2015, 11:18:22
After reading the interview on reddit.. I think I may end up getting both the kishsaver and f77 :)
Is this the one?:
http://roastpotatoes.github.io/news/2015/11/11/the-kishsaver-f62-and-f77-revival-project/
Awesome link!
I too think I have to buy one of each - I sure hope the prototypes are up to spec! :-)
Post by: aznairjordan on Wed, 11 November 2015, 18:20:04
After reading the interview on reddit.. I think I may end up getting both the kishsaver and f77 :)
Is this the one?:
http://roastpotatoes.github.io/news/2015/11/11/the-kishsaver-f62-and-f77-revival-project/
yes sir! It put the rarity of the type of board into my mind and I don't know if I could pass an opportunity like this up. I don't have any bs boards at the moment and I hope these will show me the light :)
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 11 November 2015, 18:46:29
Any other recommendations besides these?
Cork+rubber low profile bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#8771k43/=zrq7q3
Round screw-on bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#9540k781/=zrqima
Conical screw-on bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#9540k39/=zrqkdy
Dome adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k73/=zrqlnr
Square low profile adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k15/=zrqmeb
Round low profile adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k22/=zrqnia
The factory also set the springs into production and confirmed that they can make the springs to the original IBM tolerance specifications which are about 3x as tight as current Unicomp specifications according to someone I spoke with. This means that the springs will have a slightly more even feel to them like the originals.
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 11 November 2015, 23:19:31
ok I will look into having two holes where you can add a screwed-on bumper - I agree there is not enough room for it towards the "near side bottom" of the keyboard. So you will be able to add that kind or adhesive bumpers to the bottom.
Any other recommendations besides these?
Cork+rubber low profile bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#8771k43/=zrq7q3
Round screw-on bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#9540k781/=zrqima
Conical screw-on bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#9540k39/=zrqkdy
Dome adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k73/=zrqlnr
Square low profile adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k15/=zrqmeb
Round low profile adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k22/=zrqnia
The factory also set the springs into production and confirmed that they can make the springs to the original IBM tolerance specifications which are about 3x as tight as current Unicomp specifications according to someone I spoke with. This means that the springs will have a slightly more even feel to them like the originals.
Any idea on price for springs?
I would be willing to take a test batch to test in my AT. Would be willing to pay for them of course.
Post by: Vizir on Thu, 12 November 2015, 02:33:36
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 12 November 2015, 02:57:46
ok I will look into having two holes where you can add a screwed-on bumper - I agree there is not enough room for it towards the "near side bottom" of the keyboard. So you will be able to add that kind or adhesive bumpers to the bottom.
Dome adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k73/=zrqlnr (http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k73/=zrqlnr)
Round low profile adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k22/=zrqnia (http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k22/=zrqnia)
These are the TWO types of adhesive bumpers I shall be requiring for my F77 Keyboard. Both are Polyurethane based and I would like both of them to be in the Colour of "White" :thumb: .
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 12 November 2015, 08:04:38
Yes you can order extra springs when the time comes - pricing is not yet finalized for the accessories but the keyboards' pricing is finalized at $325.
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Thu, 12 November 2015, 08:19:34
More
The short answer on the rarity of the IBM 4704 Model F keyboards is they were made for banking. Due to the nature of banking equipment, it is almost always destroyed when taken out of service. I believe there are fewer than 200 of the 62 key "kishsaver" keyboards remaining, and possibly even fewer of the 77 and 88(?) key models. A lot of keyboard enthusiasts prefer 60% keyboards, hence all the hype for Kishsavers, which are the only Model F keyboards in that form factor.
Damn, I don't understand why people believe in throwing out their electronics :/ or in case of larger companies, destroying them (recycling is cool in my book); you can always sell or re-purpose them! But dang I can understand now why they'd be so rare haha.
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Thanks muffinbottoms for the interest.
For the HHKB style layout please look up a photo of a HHKB. The biggest change is to imagine the right shift key replaced with a caps lock key and a regular key the size of a letter - some prefer this layout but it requires a separate production as the barrels need to be moved a little in the right shift area.
Unicomp has black blanks but does not have right shift black blank keys. 3d printing is only required if you want your HHKB style keyboard to have a non-stepped shift key (one that does not look like a caps lock key).
I have not decided on kickstarter yet. I prefer direct orders. I may do kickstarter for this run as an optional choice just to get more interest before the orders close. Yes you can pay by credit card. You do not need to create a PayPal acct.
Ohhhh, okay I see what the split shift and 1u Fn key thing means now haha. That's actually a pretty nice layout and brings it more in line with the keys it corresponds with as well (as opposed to the Pok3r which makes it difficult to use the arrow keys with one hand). I think I'd rather stick with the regular layout just for originals sake c:
Fasho sounds good! Now time to find out how to sell my kidney....
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ok I will look into having two holes where you can add a screwed-on bumper - I agree there is not enough room for it towards the "near side bottom" of the keyboard. So you will be able to add that kind or adhesive bumpers to the bottom.
Any other recommendations besides these?
Cork+rubber low profile bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#8771k43/=zrq7q3
Round screw-on bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#9540k781/=zrqima
Conical screw-on bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#9540k39/=zrqkdy
Dome adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k73/=zrqlnr
Square low profile adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k15/=zrqmeb
Round low profile adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k22/=zrqnia
The factory also set the springs into production and confirmed that they can make the springs to the original IBM tolerance specifications which are about 3x as tight as current Unicomp specifications according to someone I spoke with. This means that the springs will have a slightly more even feel to them like the originals.
The round, conical, dome, square, and round low-profile all seem like good bumpers, my favorite being the squares (because squares are cool). I agree with Elrick that we should avoid cork because it will eventually degrade over time, kinda like the XT models (if I'm remembering the models correctly).
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What is it and how does it affect the board?As you say, a solenoid is activeted each key press and gives us clicky feedback. To run them in boards Ellipse try to manufacture, you need solenoid driver, which is available from orihalcon a member of both GH and DT. In my knowledge solenoids are not originated in original F62/77 and 107, but in more old style of keyboards like beamsprings. And they have buzzer instead.
Ohhh, interesting, I've never heard or seen these in a board before :o, time to look it up! If it wasn't in the original board than I wouldn't think a recreation would need one as well.
More
The short answer on the rarity of the IBM 4704 Model F keyboards is they were made for banking. Due to the nature of banking equipment, it is almost always destroyed when taken out of service. I believe there are fewer than 200 of the 62 key "kishsaver" keyboards remaining, and possibly even fewer of the 77 and 88(?) key models. A lot of keyboard enthusiasts prefer 60% keyboards, hence all the hype for Kishsavers, which are the only Model F keyboards in that form factor.
There are only two known specimens of the 77 key in the keyboard community.
Really? O_o I thought that a user named Tinnie found a whole bunch of them and sold them to a lot of GH/DT users?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 12 November 2015, 18:09:19
All - unfortunately anodizing, brushed aluminum, and clear coating case options can not be offered. The CNC milling process does leave some surface discolorations, all of which do not show up after the part is powdercoated.
If the cases were completely redesigned and simplified to be extrudable out of a block of aluminum, or if we paid for die cast molds for the case, then brushed aluminum, anodizing and clear coating would likely be possible.
For those who want to pay extra for a custom powdercoated color (i.e. any color besides "off white", black, and gray) please coordinate with others who want just about the same color to minimize additional costs. I recommend posting what color you'd like and then seeing what other interest there is. For example, if you wanted a blue color, you would need to coordinate which specific Pantone color you'd like (you can go to a hardware store and ask to see their Pantone color swatches). I estimate each extra color will involve splitting $50 to $100 in additional costs among everyone who wants that color.
Some custom colors requested so far (remember to specify a specific Pantone color when making your request - they can't work with RAL colors): Purple, Porcelain white, white, white ivory, semi-gloss black, silver, Hellgrau, pink, gunmetal gray, Hunter green, red, blue, mat dark gray
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 12 November 2015, 18:14:53
Some custom colors requested so far (remember to specify a specific Pantone color when making your request - they can't work with RAL colors): Purple, Porcelain white, white, white ivory, semi-gloss black, silver, Hellgrau, pink, gunmetal gray, Hunter green, red, blue, mat dark gray
Very NICE but I just want to get my F77 as soon as possible. Maybe after I've received mine I may buy another in RED colour because there are no all red casings of the F77 anywhere ;D .
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 12 November 2015, 18:15:20
The final major piece of the project is currently in production. The factory sent me some photos of the aluminum case prototypes in the CNC milling machine. In the first photo you can sort of recognize the keyboard's distinctive "pencil holder" bar. CNC milled prototypes are very expensive - they essentially take a block of solid aluminum and go inch by inch with drills and other tools to remove a bit of aluminum at a time.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Did it just get hot in here or is it just me? Thatshot.jpg.
Post by: romevi on Thu, 12 November 2015, 18:44:20
Can't decide between stock industrial gray or a custom color.
Guys, help me choose!
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Thu, 12 November 2015, 18:54:21
Muffin - Tinnie did not find any F77s, just some F62s and F50s to my knowledge. Parak and I are the only known DT/GH members who have an original F77.
You're right, I just looked back at that thread and saw only F77's and F50's.
Post by: atlas3686 on Fri, 13 November 2015, 01:32:38
For those who want to pay extra for a custom powdercoated color (i.e. any color besides "off white", black, and gray) please coordinate with others who want just about the same color to minimize additional costs. I recommend posting what color you'd like and then seeing what other interest there is. For example, if you wanted a blue color, you would need to coordinate which specific Pantone color you'd like (you can go to a hardware store and ask to see their Pantone color swatches). I estimate each extra color will involve splitting $50 to $100 in additional costs among everyone who wants that color.
Some custom colors requested so far (remember to specify a specific Pantone color when making your request - they can't work with RAL colors): Purple, Porcelain white, white, white ivory, semi-gloss black, silver, Hellgrau, pink, gunmetal gray, Hunter green, red, blue, mat dark gray
Hey Ellipse, could we see the pantone colours for all the std. colours listed ("off white", black, and gray)? If you have any patones for the custom colours that have been requested so far, would be great to see those as well. Thanks :)
Post by: Spopepro on Fri, 13 November 2015, 01:44:33
Is raw still an option? I know it will have imperfections, and I'm ok with that.
I... um... kind of have ideas to bring mine to an airbrush artist. It will probably be the opposite of classy.
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 13 November 2015, 05:56:51
I... um... kind of have ideas to bring mine to an airbrush artist. It will probably be the opposite of classy.
Cool, a different thinker here must be a young one ;) .
Hope it all goes as you want it too because after all, this will be your own keyboard to customize to your own heart's desire.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 13 November 2015, 06:32:08
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 13 November 2015, 06:36:18
Yep raw can be an option - pls note it on the order form. Not sure how quickly untreated aluminum rusts though.
Don't worry it will take some time for untreated Aluminum to start rusting (depends on location and the amount of humidity) and when it does it will look like white powder.
Maybe he might want the casing to look like a "Rat Rod", something evil and obscene 8) .
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 13 November 2015, 07:20:51
Yep raw can be an option - pls note it on the order form. Not sure how quickly untreated aluminum rusts though.
Don't worry it will take some time for untreated Aluminum to start rusting (depends on location and the amount of humidity) and when it does it will look like white powder.
Maybe he might want the casing to look like a "Rat Rod", something evil and obscene 8) .
In a standard home environment, corrosion should be a non issue.
Post by: Spopepro on Fri, 13 November 2015, 09:52:29
Yep raw can be an option - pls note it on the order form. Not sure how quickly untreated aluminum rusts though.
Aluminum oxidizes very, very quickly. Almost instantly. Fortunately, this thin layer of aluminum oxide is mostly unnoticeable, harder, and very thin. It only really matters if you wanted something like polished aluminum, which will "fog" and won't keep its shine.
Now aluminum can absolutely destructively corrode, but usually requires some other interaction, like a different material and salt (galvanic corrosion). I do not believe there would be any issues arising in this case.
Cool, a different thinker here must be a young one ;) .
Hope it all goes as you want it too because after all, this will be your own keyboard to customize to your own heart's desire.
Heh. I'm old enough to appreciate the rare instances I get called young.
It's fun to have this opportunity to go a little crazy and do something that would be completely inapropriate on a classic. If I didn't have an F107, I'd probably go for a true replica. But I'm going to have some fun with this one*.
*assuming I can actually decide which one to get and not end up ordering both versions.
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Fri, 13 November 2015, 19:01:03
*assuming I can actually decide which one to get and not end up ordering both versions.
Order both. Feel it in your heart, you do.
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 13 November 2015, 19:28:35
Yep raw can be an option - pls note it on the order form. Not sure how quickly untreated aluminum rusts though.
Aluminum oxidizes very, very quickly. Almost instantly. Fortunately, this thin layer of aluminum oxide is mostly unnoticeable, harder, and very thin. It only really matters if you wanted something like polished aluminum, which will "fog" and won't keep its shine.
Now aluminum can absolutely destructively corrode, but usually requires some other interaction, like a different material and salt (galvanic corrosion). I do not believe there would be any issues arising in this case.
I concur with this. The only way this *might* come into effect with anyone here is if it ends up being a keyboard on a sea going vessel.
Post by: njbair on Fri, 13 November 2015, 21:18:26
You may be aware that some smartphone screens are now being made from sapphire, for its strength and clarity. But did you know that a very similar aluminum-based material exists and is being used in security applications as a lightweight transparent armor? That material is aluminum oxynitride, but you may know it as transparent aluminum.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/13/d47e1a3c1ec80ba7b14e3304d66a57cd.jpg)
Post by: cjhard on Fri, 13 November 2015, 21:30:35
... but you may know it as transparent aluminum.Show Image(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/13/d47e1a3c1ec80ba7b14e3304d66a57cd.jpg)
How much would it cost to get a 60% plate made out of it?
Post by: ccc24 on Fri, 13 November 2015, 22:46:15
It could be another week or two until I receive the prototypes - still waiting on some more things for the factory to do (powdercoating, inner foam, outside foam, spring attachment to the flippers, assembly/test fittings).
Yes you can order extra springs when the time comes - pricing is not yet finalized for the accessories but the keyboards' pricing is finalized at $325.
Does that price include unicomp keycaps?
Post by: Vizir on Sat, 14 November 2015, 02:33:09
No, $325 for the keyboard without keycaps. Additional $25 approx for the keycaps from unicomp.It could be another week or two until I receive the prototypes - still waiting on some more things for the factory to do (powdercoating, inner foam, outside foam, spring attachment to the flippers, assembly/test fittings).
Yes you can order extra springs when the time comes - pricing is not yet finalized for the accessories but the keyboards' pricing is finalized at $325.
Does that price include unicomp keycaps?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 14 November 2015, 14:40:45
I have 3 spare F77 regular and F62 regular layout PCBs which are extras from my very first prototype PCB run - if anyone has their own spare xwhatsit controller and wants to do their own soldering your keyboard can include one of these PCBs.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 15 November 2015, 14:04:54
Post by: heedpantsnow on Sun, 15 November 2015, 14:09:24
What USB cable lengths are preferred for those who signed the interest form? I was thinking 10 feet, which is really 9 feet as part of the cable is routed inside the F77/F62 keyboard. People can use their own cable but it doesn't cost much to have the preferred cable already configured.
Is the cable removable?
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 15 November 2015, 14:16:00
Post by: heedpantsnow on Sun, 15 November 2015, 14:18:36
Yep you can remove the micro USB cable. The keyboard opens with a regular phillips head screwdriver.
Ah ok. I would think the 3 meter cable you mentioned is fine. That seems to be a standard length I've seen included in the past. Or 2m/6ft.
Post by: atlas3686 on Sun, 15 November 2015, 16:06:23
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 15 November 2015, 17:05:39
What USB cable lengths are preferred for those who signed the interest form? I was thinking 10 feet, which is really 9 feet as part of the cable is routed inside the F77/F62 keyboard. People can use their own cable but it doesn't cost much to have the preferred cable already configured.
10 feet sounds good, as long as the cable looks like the original one used all those years ago then it'll look superb.
Don't mind having a fixed cable here since you'll always be connected instead of running around looking for a spare cable in the future.
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Sun, 15 November 2015, 17:41:10
Post by: darkspider on Sun, 15 November 2015, 21:31:27
Damn... I want this so bad... tell me where to throw my money!!!Invoice hasn't started yet.
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 16 November 2015, 02:17:13
Damn... I want this so bad... tell me where to throw my money!!!Invoice hasn't started yet.
Don't worry, it will soon be sent out 8) .
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Mon, 16 November 2015, 14:41:27
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 17 November 2015, 10:08:46
Post by: Ir0n on Tue, 17 November 2015, 11:07:38
Just back from out of town - I didn't miss the invoice did I?
Nope
On a side note this little project should be started again https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2irf7l/working_on_buckling_spring_to_cherry_mx_stem/
Would be nice with this build :p
Post by: ccc24 on Tue, 17 November 2015, 12:00:15
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 17 November 2015, 21:09:58
Post by: romevi on Tue, 17 November 2015, 21:15:36
We are still waiting on the powdercoating of the cases, the inner foam, outside foam/box, and flipper/spring assembly. I am now hoping for prototype delivery by the end of the month (a bit delayed unfortunately). I have arranged for a few sample barrels/flippers to be mailed in advance of the prototypes; they should arrive in a week or so. Then I can post some higher resolution photos.
Hey, more time for me to save (and spend on other things)!
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Tue, 17 November 2015, 21:34:03
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 17 November 2015, 23:24:31
We are still waiting on the powdercoating of the cases, the inner foam, outside foam/box, and flipper/spring assembly. I am now hoping for prototype delivery by the end of the month (a bit delayed unfortunately). I have arranged for a few sample barrels/flippers to be mailed in advance of the prototypes; they should arrive in a week or so. Then I can post some higher resolution photos.
Hey, more time for me to save (and spend on other things)!
That's the Geekhack spirit, every extra moment helps to fully charge our wallets so when this GB finally drops everyone shall jump on some keyboards without haste 8) .
No one can afford to miss out on owning this wonder because anyone can own a Kmac model but an Ellipse Keyboard, now that shall go down in history as the rarest of them all.
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 18 November 2015, 10:09:40
No one can afford to miss out on owning this wonder because anyone can own a Kmac model but an Ellipse Keyboard, now that shall go down in history as the rarest of them all.
Damn Elrick, did you buy shares in this GB or something ;) Seriously though I cannot wait!
Post by: Vizir on Wed, 18 November 2015, 10:18:03
I think you meant the opposite of "without haste".We are still waiting on the powdercoating of the cases, the inner foam, outside foam/box, and flipper/spring assembly. I am now hoping for prototype delivery by the end of the month (a bit delayed unfortunately). I have arranged for a few sample barrels/flippers to be mailed in advance of the prototypes; they should arrive in a week or so. Then I can post some higher resolution photos.
Hey, more time for me to save (and spend on other things)!
That's the Geekhack spirit, every extra moment helps to fully charge our wallets so when this GB finally drops everyone shall jump on some keyboards without haste 8) .
No one can afford to miss out on owning this wonder because anyone can own a Kmac model but an Ellipse Keyboard, now that shall go down in history as the rarest of them all.
Post by: mobbo on Wed, 18 November 2015, 10:21:44
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 18 November 2015, 17:24:42
I think you meant the opposite of "without haste".
Definitely, us Rock Apes do not tend to check grammar to clearly, especially when it's around 3.40AM 8) .
Thanks for pointing that out here.
Post by: Ir0n on Wed, 18 November 2015, 22:54:03
Never tried capacitive buckling spring....can anyone give me some info on how they feel? Are they both tactile and clicky?
They are loud as hell and do have a sort of bump to them from what I remember lol I haven't touched one in a looooong time
I haven't used many MX switches but I'd say it's closest to either blue or greens :s
Post by: Techno Trousers on Thu, 19 November 2015, 08:28:51
Never tried capacitive buckling spring....can anyone give me some info on how they feel? Are they both tactile and clicky?It's right about 65 grams in weight, with a big tactile bump. To me the closest equivalent would be 65 gram ergo Clears. But as said above, it makes a huge amount of clatter when you're going full speed, which I love too.
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 19 November 2015, 08:48:41
Never tried capacitive buckling spring....can anyone give me some info on how they feel? Are they both tactile and clicky?It's right about 65 grams in weight, with a big tactile bump. To me the closest equivalent would be 65 gram ergo Clears. But as said above, it makes a huge amount of clatter when you're going full speed, which I love too.
Exactly, it always sounds like you really hard at work when typing on BS. I can easily hear my GF typing furiously from the other room :))
Post by: ryahirv on Thu, 19 November 2015, 13:08:46
The project is incredible and so so cool, but unfortunately the noise is a factor for me and my situation.
Excited to keep following along, but sadly won't be buying, just so it's known for capacity/demand planning.
Cheers all
Post by: ctm on Thu, 19 November 2015, 15:59:27
I have a MX blue board and a MX green on switch tester. I also tried Unicomp Model M of a friend's. Though they are all clicky switches, they are very different. I haven't tried Model F capacitive spring but I don't think they will be similar to Cherry clicky.Never tried capacitive buckling spring....can anyone give me some info on how they feel? Are they both tactile and clicky?
They are loud as hell and do have a sort of bump to them from what I remember lol I haven't touched one in a looooong time
I haven't used many MX switches but I'd say it's closest to either blue or greens :s
Post by: FrostyToast on Thu, 19 November 2015, 16:07:24
I have a MX blue board and a MX green on switch tester. I also tried Unicomp Model M of a friend's. Though they are all clicky switches, they are very different. I haven't tried Model F capacitive spring but I don't think they will be similar to Cherry clicky.Never tried capacitive buckling spring....can anyone give me some info on how they feel? Are they both tactile and clicky?
They are loud as hell and do have a sort of bump to them from what I remember lol I haven't touched one in a looooong time
I haven't used many MX switches but I'd say it's closest to either blue or greens :s
Model F is like Model M but noticeably more crisp and a little higher in pitch.
Cherry MX switches don't compare at all to buckling springs; I don't understand why people try to compare the two.
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 19 November 2015, 16:53:01
Model F is like Model M but noticeably more crisp and a little higher in pitch.
Cherry MX switches don't compare at all to buckling springs; I don't understand why people try to compare the two.
It's the youngsters here who only know about MX switches and nothing else. You can't blame them in making comparisons with that famous German designed switch because that's all they know, I suspect as they all grow old they will encounter other switches that will elevate their opinions somewhat.
When they purchase an Ellipse keyboard then all bets are off, they will become firm Model-F addicts after experiencing this keyboard 8) .
Post by: Ir0n on Thu, 19 November 2015, 17:49:07
Model F is like Model M but noticeably more crisp and a little higher in pitch.
Cherry MX switches don't compare at all to buckling springs; I don't understand why people try to compare the two.
It's the youngsters here who only know about MX switches and nothing else. You can't blame them in making comparisons with that famous German designed switch because that's all they know, I suspect as they all grow old they will encounter other switches that will elevate their opinions somewhat.
When they purchase an Ellipse keyboard then all bets are off, they will become firm Model-F addicts after experiencing this keyboard 8) .
I mean I've used both
the sound is just a lot louder and it's like...tingy I never said identical though but it's the closest MX switches I've used
Just helps with getting an idea that's all just trying to help :o
and I don't know about becoming an addict but it will be fun typing on one when I'm not playing games :3
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 19 November 2015, 18:05:46
Model F is like Model M but noticeably more crisp and a little higher in pitch.
Cherry MX switches don't compare at all to buckling springs; I don't understand why people try to compare the two.
It's the youngsters here who only know about MX switches and nothing else. You can't blame them in making comparisons with that famous German designed switch because that's all they know, I suspect as they all grow old they will encounter other switches that will elevate their opinions somewhat.
When they purchase an Ellipse keyboard then all bets are off, they will become firm Model-F addicts after experiencing this keyboard 8) .
I mean I've used both
the sound is just a lot louder and it's like...tingy I never said identical though but it's the closest MX switches I've used
Just helps with getting an idea that's all just trying to help :o
and I don't know about becoming an addict but it will be fun typing on one when I'm not playing games :3
The ping and ting comes from the springs vibrating a bit on each keypress. This can be all but killed with a floss mod. My AT resides in my keyboard tray with no case and there is zero noticeably ping. Outside of this I feel that BS isn't all that much louder than MX blues, but is a lower tone and seems to carry farther.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 19 November 2015, 18:28:05
Post by: Ir0n on Thu, 19 November 2015, 19:26:26
last game I played with one was Oregon trail lmao i'm not that old (26) but we had a XT in my class room in 2nd grade
everyone wanted to use the old XT because it had Oregon trail and not like Mathblaster or what ever the hell it was on the newer one Lol
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 19 November 2015, 19:45:34
Backing off the feel a bit I'd be more interested in knowing if anyone does actually play games like WoW or CS:GO with model Fs and Ms and if they like it
last game I played with one was Oregon trail lmao i'm not that old (26) but we had a XT in my class room in 2nd grade
everyone wanted to use the old XT because it had Oregon trail and not like Mathblaster or what ever the hell it was on the newer one Lol
While I use an orbweaver for gaming, that choice is for the matrix like layout with a decent thumb stick. If I could find that layout of keys in F internals, I would game on it in a heartbeat. But not M internals. My nature of the membrane vs capacitive pcb, F essentially has natural NKRO, and chances are we will never see an M with more than 2kro outside a converter with a queue system.
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Thu, 19 November 2015, 20:53:08
No one can afford to miss out on owning this wonder because anyone can own a Kmac model but an Ellipse Keyboard, now that shall go down in history as the rarest of them all.
Damn Elrick, did you buy shares in this GB or something ;) Seriously though I cannot wait!
Nah dude, the explanation is right under his name "hype master" haha. He is the master of hyping things
Post by: njbair on Thu, 19 November 2015, 21:40:25
Elrick has a way with words that inspires the masses. Maybe it's because I picture him sounding just like the great Paul Hogan, or maybe it's his sheer eloquence and obvious passion for quality keyboards and keycaps, but when Elrick posts, I shed a tear.No one can afford to miss out on owning this wonder because anyone can own a Kmac model but an Ellipse Keyboard, now that shall go down in history as the rarest of them all.
Damn Elrick, did you buy shares in this GB or something ;) Seriously though I cannot wait!
Nah dude, the explanation is right under his name "hype master" haha. He is the master of hyping things
GB leaders all around the globe fall to their knees and pray nightly that Elrick will take a liking to their projects, because once Elrick gets involved it's an express train right to MOQ town, baby!
See what I did there? I just hyped Elrick.
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Thu, 19 November 2015, 22:35:18
MoreNo one can afford to miss out on owning this wonder because anyone can own a Kmac model but an Ellipse Keyboard, now that shall go down in history as the rarest of them all.
Damn Elrick, did you buy shares in this GB or something ;) Seriously though I cannot wait!
Nah dude, the explanation is right under his name "hype master" haha. He is the master of hyping things
Elrick has a way with words that inspires the masses. Maybe it's because I picture him sounding just like the great Paul Hogan, or maybe it's his sheer eloquence and obvious passion for quality keyboards and keycaps, but when Elrick posts, I shed a tear.
GB leaders all around the globe fall to their knees and pray nightly that Elrick will take a liking to their projects, because once Elrick gets involved it's an express train right to MOQ town, baby!
See what I did there? I just hyped Elrick.
The circle is now complete. When you left him, you were but the learner, now you are the master.
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 19 November 2015, 22:45:28
Nah dude, the explanation is right under his name "hype master" haha. He is the master of hyping things
SSSShhheeet sunshine, I'm into one F77 but the longer this goes on I shall get another one as back up for the future when the ankle biters decide to ruin one, which shall be the last thing they will ever do.
Never trust any youngster around any worth while keyboard......
Post by: atlas3686 on Fri, 20 November 2015, 00:23:14
Backing off the feel a bit I'd be more interested in knowing if anyone does actually play games like WoW or CS:GO with model Fs and Ms and if they like it
last game I played with one was Oregon trail lmao i'm not that old (26) but we had a XT in my class room in 2nd grade
everyone wanted to use the old XT because it had Oregon trail and not like Mathblaster or what ever the hell it was on the newer one Lol
I was using my SSK as my daily at home for ages which meant all my gaming was done on it. Played quite a bit of TF2 and Starcraft and a couple other games. It was a little weird at first, especially TF2 but once I got used to it I quite enjoyed it. In fact this board is gonna be my home daily so it's gonna be used for a lot of gaming. I think as long as you not playing professionally it's perfectly good.
Post by: user 18 on Fri, 20 November 2015, 00:36:26
In fact, reading this thread reminded me that I need to give my M some more love. Will be watching for the buy to start, I'm very interested in these boards and all the impressive design work that went into them. Don't know if I can scrape together the cash, but either way this is a great step for the community. Kudos Ellipse for all the hard work you've put into this!
Post by: geniekid on Fri, 20 November 2015, 08:10:57
Backing off the feel a bit I'd be more interested in knowing if anyone does actually play games like WoW or CS:GO with model Fs and Ms and if they like it
[...]
I've played a good number of my games without problem on my SSK (DOTA2, HotS, D3, SC2, TF2, Chip's Challenge). Even though Model Ms are 2KRO the 2 is lower bound and most 3-4 key combinations will register fine. Model Fs suffer from layout issues but these can be resolved if they are programmable.
There are a couple of reasons why I wouldn't make a buckling spring my primary gaming keyboard. The first is that Ms are loud and Fs are louder. They can easily be heard through two sets of *normal* household doors. The second is that I prefer linear switches for games. Audio/tactile feedback from the switch isn't necessary and the cost of that feedback is hysteresis (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Hysteresis). It's more of an annoyance than an actual disadvantage for me but for a more competitive player it might make a real difference.
Post by: diqkiq on Fri, 20 November 2015, 22:06:55
Backing off the feel a bit I'd be more interested in knowing if anyone does actually play games like WoW or CS:GO with model Fs and Ms and if they like it
last game I played with one was Oregon trail lmao i'm not that old (26) but we had a XT in my class room in 2nd grade
everyone wanted to use the old XT because it had Oregon trail and not like Mathblaster or what ever the hell it was on the newer one Lol
I used my model m for a bout a year playing wow. That was until my my wife had enough of the clickity clack till early morning. I changed to mx blacks. I didn't think about how much noise I was making.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 22 November 2015, 19:30:09
Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise? Any particular examples/successes you can share?
Post by: Snowdog993 on Sun, 22 November 2015, 19:37:04
What are the best methods for reducing the noise in the Model F's, for those who prefer a quieter keyboard? I know there is a dental floss mod but are there any other working options?
Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise? Any particular examples/successes you can share?
A new barrel design perhaps? Something different? Some other material? I don't know.
Post by: njbair on Sun, 22 November 2015, 20:25:48
What are the best methods for reducing the noise in the Model F's, for those who prefer a quieter keyboard? I know there is a dental floss mod but are there any other working options?Check my signature for a link to my SSK rubber band mod. I've got some high quality audio samples in that post so you can hear the result.
Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise? Any particular examples/successes you can share?
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 22 November 2015, 20:46:03
What are the best methods for reducing the noise in the Model F's, for those who prefer a quieter keyboard? I know there is a dental floss mod but are there any other working options?
Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise? Any particular examples/successes you can share?
Please don't try to do this because someone will always want a SUPER quiet keyboard and any attempts by you to provide it, won't please anyone at all.
The ones who are 'sqweamish' about loud keyboards (wusses) need to apply their own methods on their keyboards because the rest of us 'normals' will always love the full breadth sound, of this American Kick-Arse Switch 8) .
When I get these keyboards I want my next door neighbour to hear about it, especially around 2 or 3 in the morning :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: .
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 22 November 2015, 20:56:06
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 22 November 2015, 21:40:29
What are the best methods for reducing the noise in the Model F's, for those who prefer a quieter keyboard? I know there is a dental floss mod but are there any other working options?
Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise? Any particular examples/successes you can share?
I don't feel that they material for the mat makes any noticeable difference in the noise of the mighty F. However, if one were to fill the cavities with a bit of sound deadening material similar to what is found in large sub enclosures, that might help a little. Though, I think the majority comes form doing a floss mod. If you do this, don't spend the money on dental floss. Just get some paracord, and use the interior core strands. Works just as good, and you get much more material for the dollar. Keep in mind that paracord 550 has 7 core strands. So, if you pick up 100 yards of paracord, you get 700 yards of core strands for doing floss mods. I find that this material doesn't affect the feel hardly at all. And all it does to the sound is take out the high frequency rings and pings from the springs vibrating.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 22 November 2015, 22:28:31
I have found that no two Model F keyboards of mine sound or feel the same (I have several dozen F's and M's in my collection). The different foam (and its state of degradation) and spring materials/tensions and slight variations in inner assembly "sandwich" compression between units probably contribute to these differences. Some are quieter/mushier while others are crisp and/or reverberant.
this has been my experience as well. All my F122's from the oldest known, to a NIB one, to the most recent known, they are all subtly different. This is of course especially true across the different model F variants. I have 8 or 10 different ones I think and they are unique.
What are the best methods for reducing the noise in the Model F's, for those who prefer a quieter keyboard? I know there is a dental floss mod but are there any other working options?fundamentally you need to reduce the intensity of vibrations by reducing the power directly (typing slower), spreading out the energy across more time (lower power) or by spreading out the same power across a larger frequency band to make it "seem" quieter.
Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise? Any particular examples/successes you can share?
Firstly to reduce "ping" and keep the spring from adding to the noise, a damping material like the floss mod will work. After that, decoupling the vibrating mechanism from a resonating cavity is a good option to look at. You can "isolate" the barrel assembly form the plate with an o-ring or different types of foam. If you consider the (now obsolete) "model F bolt mod" you can account for very different types of material this way at the expense of added complexity and potential reliability concerns. That said, it would allow you to test many different materials and methods before settling one one.
I think the biggest thing you can do to improve on the F design is to improve how the plates are connected. The way the F was designed, it would still work (consistently) across wide manufacturing tolerances of the time. Since we have MUCH better manufacturing today we can eliminate these decisions to deliver a more consistent experience. The way the plates are connected is an example of this.
Post by: Vizir on Mon, 23 November 2015, 09:39:39
What are the best methods for reducing the noise in the Model F's, for those who prefer a quieter keyboard? I know there is a dental floss mod but are there any other working options?
Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise? Any particular examples/successes you can share?
I wonder if a very thin layer of rubber paint on the inside of the barrels might reduce the noise made by the spring smacking against the barrels.
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 23 November 2015, 17:05:52
I wonder if a very thin layer of rubber paint on the inside of the barrels might reduce the noise made by the spring smacking against the barrels.
The GLORY of the Buckling Spring is it's SOUND when used, why try to muffle it and make it sound like another boring Cherry Switch Keyboard?
Christ sake, we now have a whole generation wanting to make every keyboard sound like either a limp Thorpie or a weak Cherry, what's wrong with you lot......... >:D
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 23 November 2015, 17:50:52
I wonder if a very thin layer of rubber paint on the inside of the barrels might reduce the noise made by the spring smacking against the barrels.
The GLORY of the Buckling Spring is it's SOUND when used, why try to muffle it and make it sound like another boring Cherry Switch Keyboard?
Christ sake, we now have a whole generation wanting to make every keyboard sound like either a limp Thorpie or a weak Cherry, what's wrong with you lot......... >:D
For the record, even with zero ring or ping, these boards sound nothing like Topper, cherry, or even M buckling springs. My AT has a floss mod, and rattle can plasti dip on both sides of both plates. It doesn't ring at all, but still has all the wonderful buckling spring thock. However, mine does not sit in any case. Just the plates in my desk.
Post by: rowdy on Mon, 23 November 2015, 18:44:32
I wonder if a very thin layer of rubber paint on the inside of the barrels might reduce the noise made by the spring smacking against the barrels.
The GLORY of the Buckling Spring is it's SOUND when used, why try to muffle it and make it sound like another boring Cherry Switch Keyboard?
Christ sake, we now have a whole generation wanting to make every keyboard sound like either a limp Thorpie or a weak Cherry, what's wrong with you lot......... >:D
+1
The noise is part of the reason why we want these keyboards, right?
Post by: romevi on Mon, 23 November 2015, 18:51:48
I wonder if a very thin layer of rubber paint on the inside of the barrels might reduce the noise made by the spring smacking against the barrels.
The GLORY of the Buckling Spring is it's SOUND when used, why try to muffle it and make it sound like another boring Cherry Switch Keyboard?
Christ sake, we now have a whole generation wanting to make every keyboard sound like either a limp Thorpie or a weak Cherry, what's wrong with you lot......... >:D
+1
The noise is part of the reason why we want these keyboards, right?
I can understand silencing a Topre since they're tactile and already quieter than clicky boards, but silencing an IBM board? I never thought anyone would want to silence one!
Post by: atlas3686 on Tue, 24 November 2015, 00:36:57
I wonder if a very thin layer of rubber paint on the inside of the barrels might reduce the noise made by the spring smacking against the barrels.
The GLORY of the Buckling Spring is it's SOUND when used, why try to muffle it and make it sound like another boring Cherry Switch Keyboard?
Christ sake, we now have a whole generation wanting to make every keyboard sound like either a limp Thorpie or a weak Cherry, what's wrong with you lot......... >:D
+1
The noise is part of the reason why we want these keyboards, right?
It is for me!
Post by: jonathanyu on Tue, 24 November 2015, 00:38:21
What are the best methods for reducing the noise in the Model F's, for those who prefer a quieter keyboard? I know there is a dental floss mod but are there any other working options?
Do different types or thicknesses of inner foam make a difference in the noise? Any particular examples/successes you can share?
I wonder if a very thin layer of rubber paint on the inside of the barrels might reduce the noise made by the spring smacking against the barrels.
This sounds like the best way to ruin a bs board
Post by: Vizir on Tue, 24 November 2015, 00:49:13
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 24 November 2015, 02:37:50
I was just offering a suggestion for ellipse's question. I love my clickys.
Damn straight boy, you want BS then you have to love the Click, nothing else compares or is even within the same hemisphere of this unique switch.
PLUS this shall be the ONLY manufactured example giving us addicts the REAL experience of this fantastic keyboard, so don't ever slip into the pathetic darkness of being another 'quiet person'. Live LARGE and don't give a sh1t about anyone else in this world.
This keyboard is for those that appreciate that TRUE mechanical keyboard without equal and EVERYONE shall hear this perfection, when it's plugged into your PC 8) .
Post by: Bevo on Tue, 24 November 2015, 06:40:17
I was just offering a suggestion for ellipse's question. I love my clickys.
Damn straight boy, you want BS then you have to love the Click, nothing else compares or is even within the same hemisphere of this unique switch.
PLUS this shall be the ONLY manufactured example giving us addicts the REAL experience of this fantastic keyboard, so don't ever slip into the pathetic darkness of being another 'quiet person'. Live LARGE and don't give a sh1t about anyone else in this world.
This keyboard is for those that appreciate that TRUE mechanical keyboard without equal and EVERYONE shall hear this perfection, when it's plugged into your PC 8) .
I see why you call yourself the hype master...
Post by: Ir0n on Tue, 24 November 2015, 07:56:27
I was just offering a suggestion for ellipse's question. I love my clickys.
Damn straight boy, you want BS then you have to love the Click, nothing else compares or is even within the same hemisphere of this unique switch.
PLUS this shall be the ONLY manufactured example giving us addicts the REAL experience of this fantastic keyboard, so don't ever slip into the pathetic darkness of being another 'quiet person'. Live LARGE and don't give a sh1t about anyone else in this world.
This keyboard is for those that appreciate that TRUE mechanical keyboard without equal and EVERYONE shall hear this perfection, when it's plugged into your PC 8) .
I see why you call yourself the hype master...
If he keeps it up my adblock might start mistaking his post for ads.. Lol
It's nice to hear people game with these and Model Ms
I think I might just get a old model M Or F to game with and give it a shot! Then I can just use the keycaps or ..most of them anyways in the case of F (F also needs some work to make work on modern PCs) ;o
If anyone is interested in trying a BS board out before diving into this buy ander posted a great deal on model Ms https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=77273.0
then like I said you can just use those keycaps then you'll have model M and a kishsaver ooooo I think the caps on unicomp are 10 bucks cheaper but this way you get a whole keyboard lol you just gotta swap ;x
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 25 November 2015, 19:27:11
Post by: romevi on Wed, 25 November 2015, 19:30:59
Some more sad news for us collectors - one of my recycler contacts seems to have had a whole lot of original 4704 equipment in one of their warehouses and discarded everything - amazingly this was just a couple months after I offered to buy it all from them.
I wish I didn't read that. Now I'm going to have nightmares.
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 26 November 2015, 00:08:06
Some more sad news for us collectors - one of my recycler contacts seems to have had a whole lot of original 4704 equipment in one of their warehouses and discarded everything - amazingly this was just a couple months after I offered to buy it all from them.
How does this happen, are they not interested in making money! :(
Post by: romevi on Thu, 26 November 2015, 00:15:14
Some more sad news for us collectors - one of my recycler contacts seems to have had a whole lot of original 4704 equipment in one of their warehouses and discarded everything - amazingly this was just a couple months after I offered to buy it all from them.
How does this happen, are they not interested in making money! :(
They may have been told by higher-ups to destroy them.
I remember once I worked at a place that always destroyed out-of-season stock. When I asked if I could have something that was being tossed out, the manager said no and that I could get in trouble if I take it.
It's a waste, I know, but it's still company property even to the trash can.
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 26 November 2015, 00:25:34
Some more sad news for us collectors - one of my recycler contacts seems to have had a whole lot of original 4704 equipment in one of their warehouses and discarded everything - amazingly this was just a couple months after I offered to buy it all from them.
How does this happen, are they not interested in making money! :(
They may have been told by higher-ups to destroy them.
I remember once I worked at a place that always destroyed out-of-season stock. When I asked if I could have something that was being tossed out, the manager said no and that I could get in trouble if I take it.
It's a waste, I know, but it's still company property even to the trash can.
Oh for sure but this is a recycler! Surely they would be keen to sell stuff but I guess not.
Post by: Snowdog993 on Thu, 26 November 2015, 00:26:08
No worries Elrick these F62/F77 keyboards will not be modified.
That is good to hear!
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 27 November 2015, 05:23:05
I see why you call yourself the hype master...
You know what's really hilarious, I can't label myself as anything here on GH - it's the ones running this show that handed me this label >:D .
Prefer to be another faceless keyboard collector and nothing else........
Post by: rowdy on Sat, 28 November 2015, 21:15:41
I see why you call yourself the hype master...
You know what's really hilarious, I can't label myself as anything here on GH - it's the ones running this show that handed me this label >:D .
Prefer to be another faceless keyboard collector and nothing else........
I think you've gone a little but beyond that ...
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 29 November 2015, 12:56:07
Post by: tofgerl on Sun, 29 November 2015, 13:31:38
Post by: iss on Sun, 29 November 2015, 16:32:34
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 29 November 2015, 16:33:25
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 29 November 2015, 16:39:31
Still no new updates - the factory is taking longer than expected to wrap up the prototypes: final case powdercoating, inner foam, outer foam, box, and assembly are still on their to do list.
That's always to be expected because it looks like this whole keyboard is 100% hand made by individuals, would like to see their final work but I'm confident that they will do a good job.
You've got some real talented Chinese artisans out there so not everyone is working to make cheap quality garbage for a couple dollars a day. We get inundated with mostly cheap crap here in the west, so we haven't yet experienced true quality workmanship from them yet. Hoping this venture will change that here especially getting an old American keyboard design in front of us for daily usage :thumb: .
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 30 November 2015, 18:38:30
Does anyone know the best way to create very easy to use online shopping carts? I prefer something like the Lenovo or Dell notebook configuration page where you can pick either a wizard or a list and then see photos and make selections of what you want, as opposed to looking around a site and clicking "add to cart" for various pieces. I may just use PayPal's option but I need to look more into this.
Post by: Ir0n on Tue, 01 December 2015, 04:37:01
Ellipse- are you still planning to offer in-person testing of the prototypes in NYC?
Oo if anyone does this they should make a video and post it
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 01 December 2015, 16:15:20
I prefer something like the Lenovo or Dell notebook configuration page where you can pick either a wizard or a list and then see photos and make selections of what you want, as opposed to looking around a site and clicking "add to cart" for various pieces. I may just use PayPal's option but I need to look more into this.
Just get something up that won't make any mistakes when it comes to the final transaction. Don't spend any extra money on this as this maybe a one time only sale of these keyboards and you'll be free again to do what ever next keyboard design, takes your fancy.
When the keyboards arrive to you, just post the pics and you'll get everyone wanting them no matter what :thumb: .
Post by: Vizir on Tue, 01 December 2015, 19:07:35
And just posting the pics won't get the orders and invoices done. He has to get some sort of shopping cart... The photographs won't handle this.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 01 December 2015, 19:34:35
After some brief testing the flippers work! This is a major relief that the plastic might not prove correct. The new flippers convey key presses firmly and accurately as well as the originals, from my initial testing (of course extensive testing will be done after the full prototypes arrive). The new springs are also excellent and require the same amount of force to buckle as original Model F springs. They fit on the flippers well.
Unfortunately the barrels will need a few 0.1 mm adjustments in the molds before they are excellent (the insides of the new barrels require a little more room to match the originals). I filed down one sample barrel 0.1 mm in the needed areas to correct this issue and the new barrel is just as smooth in operation as the originals. This will likely cause a delay in the project unfortunately.
To show how similar my units are to the originals, in the photos I have included a mix of original barrels/flippers/springs as well as the reproductions that arrived today.
Can you tell which ones in the photos are originals and which ones are the new ones?
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7]
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 01 December 2015, 19:54:54
Major update: The sample barrels, springs and flippers have arrived! They all appear to be very good quality and the correct materials for this project.
After some brief testing the flippers work! This is a major relief that the plastic might not prove correct. The new flippers convey key presses firmly and accurately as well as the originals, from my initial testing (of course extensive testing will be done after the full prototypes arrive). The new springs are also excellent and require the same amount of force to buckle as original Model F springs. They fit on the flippers well.
Unfortunately the barrels will need a few 0.1 mm adjustments in the molds before they are excellent (the insides of the new barrels require a little more room to match the originals). I filed down one sample barrel 0.1 mm in the needed areas to correct this issue and the new barrel is just as smooth in operation as the originals. This will likely cause a delay in the project unfortunately.
To show how similar my units are to the originals, in the photos I have included a mix of original barrels/flippers/springs as well as the reproductions that arrived today.
Can you tell which ones in the photos are originals and which ones are the new ones?
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Bottom pic, the two right barrels are original. They still have numbers in the top.
Post by: ctm on Tue, 01 December 2015, 19:57:41
p.s. I guess the two on left are new ones because there is no dust at all on them.
Post by: cjhard on Tue, 01 December 2015, 21:36:11
How badly would you figure the springs could rust if left to the elements? I happen to know too well how nasty a Model M spring'll rust
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 01 December 2015, 21:54:26
How badly would you figure the springs could rust if left to the elements? I happen to know too well how nasty a Model M spring'll rust
Good question, what material are the springs, carbon steel, or stainless?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 01 December 2015, 22:52:20
However they will be fully tested in the prototypes before I confirm those materials for the production run, just like all the other materials and specs.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 02 December 2015, 22:04:06
There are always small inaccuracies when doing plastic injection molding but this factory was so good that many of the measurements were accurate to a few 100ths of a mm compared to my original CAD files, which is amazing work. Much more accurate than even the original barrels' sample variations!
The factory is continuing to do the testing and they have been very kind to document their progress with many of the photos I've been posting. In this recent photo they are checking the fit of top inner assembly with the barrels. They confirmed that it is a good tight fit, even with foam and the space needed for the capacitive PCB. Too tight a fit and it could scratch the barrels or powdercoated paint, while too loose a fit and there may be more barrel movement than the movement allowed by the original standards.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: ryahirv on Wed, 02 December 2015, 22:14:41
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Thu, 03 December 2015, 00:03:41
Post by: romevi on Thu, 03 December 2015, 00:19:26
(And some time for fattening the wallet.)
Post by: livingspeedbump on Thu, 03 December 2015, 01:05:38
I'm always good on delays if it means the board will be perfect.
(And some time for fattening the wallet.)
Couldnt agree more! No reason to pay as much attention to detail as you have and let some silly little thing mess it up.
Post by: darkspider on Thu, 03 December 2015, 03:50:15
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 03 December 2015, 04:23:15
I'm always good on delays if it means the board will be perfect.
(And some time for fattening the wallet.)
Couldnt agree more! No reason to pay as much attention to detail as you have and let some silly little thing mess it up.
Exactly my feelings.
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Thu, 03 December 2015, 18:45:36
I'm always good on delays if it means the board will be perfect.
(And some time for fattening the wallet.)
"A delayed keyboard is eventually good, a rushed keyboard is forever bad" - Shigeru Miyamoto
Post by: romevi on Thu, 03 December 2015, 18:46:53
I'm always good on delays if it means the board will be perfect.
(And some time for fattening the wallet.)
"A delayed keyboard is eventually good, a rushed keyboard is forever bad" - Shigeru Miyamoto
Shigs said that?
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Thu, 03 December 2015, 18:54:14
I'm always good on delays if it means the board will be perfect.
(And some time for fattening the wallet.)
"A delayed keyboard is eventually good, a rushed keyboard is forever bad" - Shigeru Miyamoto
Shigs said that?
More or less ;P
Post by: Bevo on Fri, 04 December 2015, 00:35:48
Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 04 December 2015, 16:43:45
Pretty sure either was Gandhi
No; Ghandi said "I will some day be misquoted on the Internet."
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 05 December 2015, 18:41:33
Are there one or more writers out there who can volunteer some of their time to help the project?
One of the final steps will be to help write a brief instruction manual, FAQs, something for the web site to introduce/summarize the project for those who may not be as familiar with the project, and anything else you think would be worthwhile (maybe a brief overview of buckling spring keyboards). xwhatsit's Model F USB manual is probably recommended reading too. I don't want to take anything already written though unless the author agrees to it.
Post by: user 18 on Sat, 05 December 2015, 19:02:19
Post by: romevi on Sat, 05 December 2015, 21:01:45
Post by: raymogi on Sat, 05 December 2015, 21:06:04
Post by: harlw on Sat, 05 December 2015, 21:52:51
Given the factory delays and the need to make adjustments to the injection molds for the barrels, we are probably about 2-4 weeks away from the completed prototypes and the opening of orders. There is a lot more interest than I had expected - we recently made it to 200+ preorders! I was hoping for an earlier date to open the order form if there were no issues but I want to make sure that even the prototypes are great before accepting orders.
Are there one or more writers out there who can volunteer some of their time to help the project?
One of the final steps will be to help write a brief instruction manual, FAQs, something for the web site to introduce/summarize the project for those who may not be as familiar with the project, and anything else you think would be worthwhile (maybe a brief overview of buckling spring keyboards). xwhatsit's Model F USB manual is probably recommended reading too. I don't want to take anything already written though unless the author agrees to it.
Great idea! Let me know if you need help with illustrations, writing, graphics etc.
I know there were some proposals for box art but let me know if you would like some help on that - I've done packaging graphics many times and I can make sure the graphics are top-notch for print.
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Sat, 05 December 2015, 22:06:24
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 06 December 2015, 01:14:12
Given the factory delays and the need to make adjustments to the injection molds for the barrels, we are probably about 2-4 weeks away from the completed prototypes and the opening of orders. There is a lot more interest than I had expected - we recently made it to 200+ preorders! I was hoping for an earlier date to open the order form if there were no issues but I want to make sure that even the prototypes are great before accepting orders.
Knew this would go BALLISTIC because it's the current MOST unique keyboard currently available around the globe. Plus using a familiar key-switch that has long been abandoned by all manufacturers for the cheapest one, being the "Cherry". The people are sick of the current situation.
They all want the BEST switch possible and you made that happen hence the interest here, I think 2016 is going to be a stellar year for this to happen :thumb: .
Post by: Bevo on Sun, 06 December 2015, 03:12:21
Given the factory delays and the need to make adjustments to the injection molds for the barrels, we are probably about 2-4 weeks away from the completed prototypes and the opening of orders. There is a lot more interest than I had expected - we recently made it to 200+ preorders! I was hoping for an earlier date to open the order form if there were no issues but I want to make sure that even the prototypes are great before accepting orders.
Knew this would go BALLISTIC because it's the current MOST unique keyboard currently available around the globe. Plus using a familiar key-switch that has long been abandoned by all manufacturers for the cheapest one, being the "Cherry". The people are sick of the current situation.
They all want the BEST switch possible and you made that happen hence the interest here, I think 2016 is going to be a stellar year for this to happen :thumb: .
I for one wouldn't want everyone in my office typing on model F's.
Post by: rowdy on Sun, 06 December 2015, 04:08:11
Given the factory delays and the need to make adjustments to the injection molds for the barrels, we are probably about 2-4 weeks away from the completed prototypes and the opening of orders. There is a lot more interest than I had expected - we recently made it to 200+ preorders! I was hoping for an earlier date to open the order form if there were no issues but I want to make sure that even the prototypes are great before accepting orders.
Knew this would go BALLISTIC because it's the current MOST unique keyboard currently available around the globe. Plus using a familiar key-switch that has long been abandoned by all manufacturers for the cheapest one, being the "Cherry". The people are sick of the current situation.
They all want the BEST switch possible and you made that happen hence the interest here, I think 2016 is going to be a stellar year for this to happen :thumb: .
I for one wouldn't want everyone in my office typing on model F's.
I think that would be hilarious :))
But someone complained about my solitary SSK at work, so now I use clears.
Post by: Bevo on Sun, 06 December 2015, 05:21:21
Given the factory delays and the need to make adjustments to the injection molds for the barrels, we are probably about 2-4 weeks away from the completed prototypes and the opening of orders. There is a lot more interest than I had expected - we recently made it to 200+ preorders! I was hoping for an earlier date to open the order form if there were no issues but I want to make sure that even the prototypes are great before accepting orders.
Knew this would go BALLISTIC because it's the current MOST unique keyboard currently available around the globe. Plus using a familiar key-switch that has long been abandoned by all manufacturers for the cheapest one, being the "Cherry". The people are sick of the current situation.
They all want the BEST switch possible and you made that happen hence the interest here, I think 2016 is going to be a stellar year for this to happen :thumb: .
I for one wouldn't want everyone in my office typing on model F's.
I think that would be hilarious :))
But someone complained about my solitary SSK at work, so now I use clears.
Bunch of haters!
I was using blues at work until someone complained so i bought a novatouch specifically for work. Well that was my excuse for the purchase anyways :P
Post by: zombimuncha on Sun, 06 December 2015, 06:46:55
Given the factory delays and the need to make adjustments to the injection molds for the barrels, we are probably about 2-4 weeks away from the completed prototypes and the opening of orders. There is a lot more interest than I had expected - we recently made it to 200+ preorders! I was hoping for an earlier date to open the order form if there were no issues but I want to make sure that even the prototypes are great before accepting orders.
Knew this would go BALLISTIC because it's the current MOST unique keyboard currently available around the globe. Plus using a familiar key-switch that has long been abandoned by all manufacturers for the cheapest one, being the "Cherry". The people are sick of the current situation.
They all want the BEST switch possible and you made that happen hence the interest here, I think 2016 is going to be a stellar year for this to happen :thumb: .
I for one wouldn't want everyone in my office typing on model F's.
I think that would be hilarious :))
But someone complained about my solitary SSK at work, so now I use clears.
Bunch of haters!
I was using blues at work until someone complained so i bought a novatouch specifically for work. Well that was my excuse for the purchase anyways :P
Hahaha. I started with Matias QuietClicks, nobody complained so I tried MX Clears, still nobody complained so now I'm on Matias Clicks. I suspect a Model F might be too noisy even for my very tolerant co-workers tho.
Post by: bocahgundul on Sun, 06 December 2015, 06:53:55
Post by: stoic-lemon on Sun, 06 December 2015, 11:07:17
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 06 December 2015, 16:49:51
Bunch of haters!
I was using blues at work until someone complained so i bought a novatouch specifically for work. Well that was my excuse for the purchase anyways :p
Damn, anyone complains about my typing in my office gets to do clean up duty around the oil refuse area, outside the workshop.
Very peaceful here because I make it happen each and everyday :thumb: .
Post by: stoic-lemon on Mon, 07 December 2015, 05:53:18
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 08 December 2015, 19:52:08
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 10 December 2015, 22:09:24
Post by: romevi on Fri, 11 December 2015, 00:10:06
As an update, the powdercoating on the case should be finished within a day or so, and then we will just need to wait for the outside foam and box to be made and for the springs to be attached to the flippers - it is possible the prototypes could be here in about two weeks!
Why are you so amazing, Ellipse?
Post by: aznairjordan on Sat, 12 December 2015, 08:09:11
Post by: Ir0n on Sat, 12 December 2015, 09:04:06
Someone convince me to get both boards.. Do I need two?? Great job on this ellipse! Can't wait to see the final product
I can only get one myself, but i'm still unsure which one i want...I don't know if I can use a 60% keyboard.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 12 December 2015, 12:08:21
We reached 210 keyboards today! Interestingly the preference is towards the F62s (personally I prefer the F77 for the separate num pad and cursor keys). The current breakdown is 85 F77s and 125 F62s.
Post by: user 18 on Sat, 12 December 2015, 12:12:56
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sat, 12 December 2015, 12:37:23
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 12 December 2015, 12:58:16
If you can't decide between F62 and F77 just yet, you can order both (!) or you can put 0.5 for each one like the other undecided forum members are putting, so that the total count is correct.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 12 December 2015, 13:14:34
Since quite a few people asked me about a smaller/redesigned F77 and F62 case in recent months, I am working on an additional case option, in addition to the current cases which will still definitely be the main offering: an alternative case that does not take up as much extra space.
Don't worry the original designs will not change at all - they are the main option! Just about everyone will still be ordering the original-style cases I'd imagine.
The proposed redesigned case will be 1 inch less wide and 0.7 in less the other way (about 15.5 in x 6.3 in for the F77 and 14 in x 6.3 in for the F62). Not much savings. The cost for both case options will be the same, or if there's enough interest you may be able to save a small amount like $15 or so on your order.
The other case would also be made out of metal.
Post by: Vizir on Sat, 12 December 2015, 13:23:23
Post by: ctm on Sat, 12 December 2015, 13:24:27
The F77 is about 16.5 x 7 inches and the F62 is about 2.5 inches less wide (~ 14 x 7 in.). For further space savings in the 7" dimension, I would need a volunteer PCB designer to redesign the xwhatsit controller to take up less space. Currently it just sticks out of the capacitive PCB like on an original XT keyboard. Any volunteers?I am interested in the smaller case!
Since quite a few people asked me about a smaller/redesigned F77 and F62 case in recent months, I am working on an additional case option, in addition to the current cases which will still definitely be the main offering: an alternative case that does not take up as much extra space.
Don't worry the original designs will not change at all - they are the main option! Just about everyone will still be ordering the original-style cases I'd imagine.
The proposed redesigned case will be 1 inch less wide and 0.7 in less the other way (about 15.5 in x 6.3 in for the F77 and 14 in x 6.3 in for the F62). Not much savings. The cost for both case options will be the same, or if there's enough interest you may be able to save a small amount like $15 or so on your order.
The other case would also be made out of metal.
Post by: ctm on Sat, 12 December 2015, 13:32:19
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Sat, 12 December 2015, 14:01:38
Any planned date for when there will be open testing of the prototype?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 12 December 2015, 14:42:49
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Sat, 12 December 2015, 14:44:32
As soon as I get the keyboards and test them, I will offer them for a meet up. Every Model F of mine sounds slightly but noticeably different, so they definitely won't sound exactly like anyone's own Model F. Also the prototypes have had hand-drilled or otherwise hand-adjusted alterations made to them, so they will not be 100% like the final production pieces which will all be machine-made to the finalized specifications.
I understand there will be differences but I just want to be able to see the board construction and test them out first hand.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 12 December 2015, 14:52:00
The factory has done great work so far. The prototype parts I've received are well built.
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Sat, 12 December 2015, 14:54:13
ok great. I think you will like them. Do you (or anyone else in the NYC area) have an original Kishsaver or Model F you'd like to compare? Maybe you'd like to bring it along. It's always interesting to hear in person how different Model F keyboards sound.
The factory has done great work so far. The prototype parts I've received are well built.
I don't have any IBM boards and I have never gotten to try a Model M or F, hence my anticipation for these boards.
Post by: ctm on Mon, 14 December 2015, 10:27:58
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 15 December 2015, 11:09:02
Smaller case sounds very very attractive!
Post by: riotonthebay on Wed, 16 December 2015, 09:39:53
ok great. I think you will like them. Do you (or anyone else in the NYC area) have an original Kishsaver or Model F you'd like to compare? Maybe you'd like to bring it along. It's always interesting to hear in person how different Model F keyboards sound.
The factory has done great work so far. The prototype parts I've received are well built.
I'm in NYC and have a Kishsaver I'd be happy to bring to a meetup. Need to fix a few keys first but it's otherwise in near perfect condition, using xwhatsits controller.
I've not been actively following this thread, so someone feel free to PM me when the meetup date is set ;)
Post by: keshley on Thu, 17 December 2015, 06:50:54
I'm not surprised we're seeing more interest in the F62, its a fantastic board, and not gargantuan like most of the other models.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 18 December 2015, 16:08:43
Post by: romevi on Fri, 18 December 2015, 16:32:28
As an update, the factory was delayed again, and prototypes are now likely to arrive the week after Christmas now.
More time to keep saving and spending on other things! :p
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 19 December 2015, 18:25:11
As an update, the factory was delayed again, and prototypes are now likely to arrive the week after Christmas now.
More time to keep saving and spending on other things! :p
Love this guy, always an eternal optimist :thumb: .
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 21 December 2015, 11:30:42
The good news is that they seem to have gotten the "extra bumpy" powdercoating texture close to the originals - especially if you look at the first photo below:
**Please disregard the colors in the photos; they are not at all what you will get.
The colors and white balance are way off in these photos, so please take the photos with a grain of salt. The prototypes should get here in the next week or two and I will take many photos too and hopefully open up orders then :)
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7]
Post by: RoastPotatoes on Mon, 21 December 2015, 11:33:03
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Mon, 21 December 2015, 11:34:51
The case prototypes have finally been completed!It's looks amazing. Such a great piece of work, and I can't wait to see the final results. I can only imagine how much of a relief it is for you to finally see results of your hard work.
They sent over very low quality photos that were improperly compressed most likely - I have asked them to send the original JPGs from their DSLR, but the prototypes should get here in the next week or two and I will take many photos too and hopefully open up orders then :)
The colors and white balance are way off in these photos, so please take the photos with a grain of salt.
The good news is that they seem to have gotten the "extra bumpy" powdercoating texture close to the originals - especially if you look at the first photo below:
F77 prototype case photos will hopefully be forthcoming.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Post by: scubaste on Mon, 21 December 2015, 11:39:10
The case prototypes have finally been completed!
They sent over very low quality photos that were improperly compressed most likely - I have asked them to send the original JPGs from their DSLR, but the prototypes should get here in the next week or two and I will take many photos too and hopefully open up orders then :)
The colors and white balance are way off in these photos, so please take the photos with a grain of salt.
The good news is that they seem to have gotten the "extra bumpy" powdercoating texture close to the originals - especially if you look at the first photo below:
F77 prototype case photos will hopefully be forthcoming.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Looking fantastic Ellipse. Congrats!
(http://i.imgur.com/c5KYdMS.gif)
Post by: harlw on Mon, 21 December 2015, 13:21:26
Post by: naasfu on Mon, 21 December 2015, 14:28:06
i'm really looking forward to this. still debating on what color to choose.
Post by: tribade on Mon, 21 December 2015, 14:30:03
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 21 December 2015, 16:13:49
F77 prototype case photos will hopefully be forthcoming.
This is definitely worth waiting for, when you finally post pics of the F77's I'll be buying one straight away without haste :thumb: .
Post by: stoic-lemon on Mon, 21 December 2015, 16:53:31
So at regular speed then. :)F77 prototype case photos will hopefully be forthcoming.
straight away without haste :thumb: .
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 21 December 2015, 17:54:55
So at regular speed then. :)F77 prototype case photos will hopefully be forthcoming.
straight away without haste :thumb: .
As fast as Paypal can deposit the sums 8) .
Post by: rowdy on Mon, 21 December 2015, 18:41:34
Not just NIB, but really new, only just manufactured!
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 21 December 2015, 19:04:24
I posted earlier about a small demand for a smaller style case that is less wide - an additional alternative case design. There is a lot of empty space in the original cases.
Here is a rough prototype of the alternative case. No one will get this case unless they request it!
Please note that this alternative case will not be the one offered primarily for this project, but just a low volume alternative version for those who want a smaller form factor case. It will be powdercoated off-white or gray like the originals, or any other Pantone color you specify and if you pay for tooling (could be $100 or so, not sure yet).
The bottom case is reminiscent of the stamped metal bottom case of the F122, while the top case is a curved design like that of the top of a Model M case. The bottom case includes the left and right side "walls" while the top case includes the top and bottom walls. The cases will be attached with four removable screws, like the original.
Personally I prefer the CNC milled original style case as they are bigger, heavier, and more classic looking.
Due to the lower quantities expected for the smaller case, I do not have the minimum quantities to make them with CNC milling, so unfortunately the case had to be redesigned from scratch and simplified.
No need to say you will stay with the original case - I will assume everyone wants the original unless they specify otherwise in the order form. I do welcome feedback though on this design - if you can volunteer another design that does not need to be CNC milled please do post it.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: naasfu on Mon, 21 December 2015, 19:40:51
So at regular speed then. :)F77 prototype case photos will hopefully be forthcoming.
straight away without haste :thumb: .
hahaha. :)
what color case is everyone getting?
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 21 December 2015, 21:08:54
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 21 December 2015, 21:43:25
Post by: livingspeedbump on Mon, 21 December 2015, 22:32:19
The case prototypes have finally been completed!
The good news is that they seem to have gotten the "extra bumpy" powdercoating texture close to the originals - especially if you look at the first photo below:
**Please disregard the colors in the photos; they are not at all what you will get.
The colors and white balance are way off in these photos, so please take the photos with a grain of salt. The prototypes should get here in the next week or two and I will take many photos too and hopefully open up orders then :)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Wow. :thumb:
Post by: user 18 on Mon, 21 December 2015, 22:33:11
Post by: livingspeedbump on Mon, 21 December 2015, 22:33:12
So at regular speed then. :)F77 prototype case photos will hopefully be forthcoming.
straight away without haste :thumb: .
hahaha. :)
what color case is everyone getting?
Definitely industrial grey.
Post by: Bevo on Mon, 21 December 2015, 23:58:55
So at regular speed then. :)F77 prototype case photos will hopefully be forthcoming.
straight away without haste :thumb: .
Haha i was going to say the same thing. I think i may purchase mine at regular speed as well.. Or maybe a little bit faster than regular speed
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 22 December 2015, 05:23:46
Definitely industrial grey.
You lot are too picky, since my eyeballs are already sun drenched after years being in the outback, any colour would suit me.
Just as long the whole keyboard is adjusted for perfection Ellipse shall get my money no matter what. He looks to be a realistic individual with no illusions of grandeur and looks to deliver on his promise of making and shipping Model-F keyboards for anyone that wants one.
Certainly thus far, he is head and shoulders above any Korean Fantasist Dealer 8) .
Post by: romevi on Tue, 22 December 2015, 08:25:08
yes rowdy it will truly be a special day when these arrive in the mail!
I posted earlier about a small demand for a smaller style case that is less wide - an additional alternative case design. There is a lot of empty space in the original cases.
Here is a rough prototype of the alternative case. No one will get this case unless they request it!
Please note that this alternative case will not be the one offered primarily for this project, but just a low volume alternative version for those who want a smaller form factor case. It will be powdercoated off-white or gray like the originals, or any other Pantone color you specify and if you pay for tooling (could be $100 or so, not sure yet).
The bottom case is reminiscent of the stamped metal bottom case of the F122, while the top case is a curved design like that of the top of a Model M case. The bottom case includes the left and right side "walls" while the top case includes the top and bottom walls. The cases will be attached with four removable screws, like the original.
Personally I prefer the CNC milled original style case as they are bigger, heavier, and more classic looking.
Due to the lower quantities expected for the smaller case, I do not have the minimum quantities to make them with CNC milling, so unfortunately the case had to be redesigned from scratch and simplified.
No need to say you will stay with the original case - I will assume everyone wants the original unless they specify otherwise in the order form. I do welcome feedback though on this design - if you can volunteer another design that does not need to be CNC milled please do post it.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Is it possible to order the regular F77 and get the smaller form case as well?
Post by: ctm on Tue, 22 December 2015, 09:07:53
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 22 December 2015, 09:46:14
Post by: Ir0n on Tue, 22 December 2015, 10:38:35
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 22 December 2015, 10:47:46
Post by: romevi on Tue, 22 December 2015, 11:22:31
Yes romevi you can order both. you'd need to buy a new bottom inner assembly plate. Everything else would be interchangeable.
Sweet! Should we PM you to add one or will you offer them separately?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 22 December 2015, 11:46:42
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 23 December 2015, 14:37:42
All of their bumpers feel very well-made and should be great for this project. I personally prefer the cork-rubber bumpers reminiscent of the original XT keyboard.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: EppyKay on Wed, 23 December 2015, 14:46:38
Are you still planning on having a meetup to show off the prototypes? I'm also in NYC and would love to see the proto in person. I could bring an F-122 and XT for comparison if needed.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 23 December 2015, 15:08:52
I would recommend ordering and trying out both if you can - you can always sell one after they go out of production. I am confident these will at least hold their value in the coming years!
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 23 December 2015, 16:33:01
The little parts from McMaster-Carr have arrived! A sampling of screws, foam, bumpers, nuts, washers, etc. More will be ordered based on what's required and what people indicate in their order forms.
All of their bumpers feel very well-made and should be great for this project. I personally prefer the cork-rubber bumpers reminiscent of the original XT keyboard.
(Attachment Link)
Talk about keeping it authentic 8) .
YES, the Corkie's look great, might have to buy some for my F77.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 24 December 2015, 16:59:59
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 24 December 2015, 17:03:07
The silver-colored labels have arrived and they look great! Here is the first draft of the label design:
(Attachment Link)
This is what makes this keyboard, 100% authentic. Can't wait to see an F77 all finished and ready to be sold on your future website :thumb: .
Post by: cooldiscretion on Thu, 24 December 2015, 18:18:57
The silver-colored labels have arrived and they look great! Here is the first draft of the label design:
(Attachment Link)
I assume ID NO will increment with each keyboard or is that for revisions of the design?
I like the zero based indexing here. hehe
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 24 December 2015, 18:40:45
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Thu, 24 December 2015, 18:46:01
Post by: ctm on Thu, 24 December 2015, 21:39:32
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 25 December 2015, 23:06:24
If not can we get country of origin on the rest of the parts?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 26 December 2015, 18:54:56
Hopefully the prototypes ship early next week!
The backend for the store is up and running with products and possible variations. Of course ordering is disabled until everything is ready. A community member is working on the design for the web site, and a few DT/GH members are working on content.
Post by: pchatterjee on Mon, 28 December 2015, 00:56:58
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 28 December 2015, 06:31:06
Ellipse -- for those of us who have signed onto your form are we ordering through the website as well?
Eager to know as well because when you finally launch this website, will it be everyone for themselves barging into your website to grab their keyboard as soon as possible or will those who have already filled out your form get preference?
Please let us know, I hate to miss out due to sleeping in between my shifts :'( .
Post by: cjhard on Mon, 28 December 2015, 12:03:29
Post by: Techno Trousers on Mon, 28 December 2015, 12:55:15
Post by: cjhard on Mon, 28 December 2015, 12:58:25
Post by: ryahirv on Mon, 28 December 2015, 13:57:42
Is that just the 62 key or is there a smaller case for the larger model too?
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 28 December 2015, 15:18:15
And yes Elrick I will ship them in the sequence that the orders come in on the web site. If anyone is international and wants a lower serial number please let me know and I will try to set a unit aside (due to the time zone differences).
cjhard there is no maximum quantity. You can order one now and order another one a month later. To help defray tooling costs I am offering the earliest serial numbers (including single significant digit serials) at higher cost. Other than that it is first come first served. I will not be prioritizing serials based on when you signed the interest form.
Yes Techno that is my expectation. I'm not sure how Clack sales run? I may do two runs, one for early birds and one main run so that people don't have to wait two months if they get their order in during the first few weeks. But I'm leaning towards one run, meaning the keyboards would likely ship in March if all goes well. Does anyone have any recommendations in this process?
ryahirv there will be a smaller case for the F77 model too. I have been talking with the DT folks about the design of the smaller case. A number of them seem to prefer an extruded aluminum type case which is significantly more expensive than my alternative case design posted earlier in this thread.
Here are the "second alternative" extruded aluminum case rough draft designs (one with perpendicular edges and one with rounded) - please let me know your feedback.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 28 December 2015, 15:19:26
Unfortunately they need to take the rest of this week to finish up loose ends (styrofoam packing/the box) and make some notes for production and assembly while they still have the prototype units, before they mail them. This means we are delayed until late next week most likely :(
One more reminder that the case paint colors are not accurate in the photos below. Also the foam used in the photo for testing is not the foam being used for the production units.
Also in the photos you can see the inside of the top cover and its strain relief post. The P clips arrived today and they worked well with the USB cable in my testing.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Mon, 28 December 2015, 15:23:03
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 28 December 2015, 16:19:48
And yes Elrick I will ship them in the sequence that the orders come in on the web site. If anyone is international and wants a lower serial number please let me know and I will try to set a unit aside (due to the time zone differences).
ryahirv there will be a smaller case for the F77 model too. I have been talking with the DT folks about the design of the smaller case. A number of them seem to prefer an extruded aluminum type case which is significantly more expensive than my alternative case design posted earlier in this thread.
Here are the "second alternative" extruded aluminum case rough draft designs (one with perpendicular edges and one with rounded) - please let me know your feedback.
FANTASTIC, so this will be a good ole fashioned website buy in "NO PRISONERS TAKEN", type of purchasing 8) . Shall enjoy it immensely but are you still going to change the final F77 casing for this keyboard?
If that's to occur then what happens now, do we the F77 fanatics, wait for this new design or what?
Post by: cjhard on Mon, 28 December 2015, 16:31:20
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 28 December 2015, 17:29:20
cjhard is right that I am also working on some alternative designs for those who want a keyboard with a smaller footprint. __red__ from DT has generously volunteered to redesign the xwhatsit PCB layout so that these smaller cases will be feasible.
Post by: ryahirv on Mon, 28 December 2015, 18:21:36
Post by: ctm on Mon, 28 December 2015, 18:39:39
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 28 December 2015, 18:45:42
Technically the backend of the site is up (just the items and customization options) but ordering is disabled.
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 28 December 2015, 19:26:19
correct ctm - you can't order anything just yet.
Technically the backend of the site is up (just the items and customization options) but ordering is disabled.
Can't wait for the link to be posted here, extremely RABID for this keyboard :o .
Looks like my F77 is going to happen and when it's finally available for purchase, the American Dream shall be used right here in Convict Town :thumb: .
Post by: Vizir on Tue, 29 December 2015, 06:00:42
Will you be making a complete working prototype with the new designs?
Post by: romevi on Tue, 29 December 2015, 09:08:09
I prefer the rounded edges, by a hair.
Will you be making a complete working prototype with the new designs?
I prefer the hairy edges. Buy a round.
Post by: Ir0n on Tue, 29 December 2015, 10:49:35
Post by: Vizir on Tue, 29 December 2015, 11:51:10
I prefer the rounded edges, by a hair.
Will you be making a complete working prototype with the new designs?
I prefer the hairy edges. Buy a round.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 29 December 2015, 17:04:33
Wrapping up final things:
Europe F77/F62 shipping proxies - any volunteers?
You would be receiving a number of keyboards and shipping them out across Europe, for those who want to save on shipping costs. For example, the post office charges about $51 for a 7 pound package but $91 for a 28 pound package (I don't know the final weight of the keyboards just yet). Then those in Europe would pay you directly for the charges to ship within Europe.
Custom Colors - on the interest form some of you said you'd like a custom color. I will try to get black, but are there any other colors you really want, even if tooling costs were $20 to $100 extra? Please let me know by replying here or over PM. The more people interested in your suggested color, the lower the tooling costs to change colors.
Keyboard options -
The case color options will be for Off-White/Beige, Gray, and a custom color if you discuss with me beforehand.
The layout options for the springs will be ANSI, ISO, and HHKB (split right shift only and both split shift and split backspace).
The key options will be bring your own set (if you mail it to me I can have the factory install it, no extra charge), ANSI, black blank, regular blank, and your own language (ISO) as long as Unicomp makes it. I will also try to get APL and front printed keys but those will both cost more. The costs will be passed along: whatever Unicomp charges on their web site. I will also try to get some used Model M ANSI key sets.
Post by: ImAWildDeer on Tue, 29 December 2015, 19:13:43
Do you have any renders of what the F62 with HHKB layout would look like?
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 29 December 2015, 21:42:36
The case color options will be for Off-White/Beige, Gray, and a custom color if you discuss with me beforehand.
Gray would be my fave colour picked on my first F77 keyboard :thumb: .
The layout options for the springs will be ANSI, ISO, and HHKB (split right shift only and both split shift and split backspace).
Layout option has to be only ANSI (my heart sank when I saw those four disgusting letters "HHKB", how could you defame the famous Model-F with that ugly keyboard manufacturer).
Post by: pchatterjee on Tue, 29 December 2015, 22:17:36
Ir0n the lower serial number options will be available on the web site for a slightly higher charge if you want to be a higher-level project supporter :). Besides that, they will ship and you will get a serial number in order of when your order comes in.
Wrapping up final things:
Europe F77/F62 shipping proxies - any volunteers?
You would be receiving a number of keyboards and shipping them out across Europe, for those who want to save on shipping costs. For example, the post office charges about $51 for a 7 pound package but $91 for a 28 pound package (I don't know the final weight of the keyboards just yet). Then those in Europe would pay you directly for the charges to ship within Europe.
Custom Colors - on the interest form some of you said you'd like a custom color. I will try to get black, but are there any other colors you really want, even if tooling costs were $20 to $100 extra? Please let me know by replying here or over PM. The more people interested in your suggested color, the lower the tooling costs to change colors.
Keyboard options -
The case color options will be for Off-White/Beige, Gray, and a custom color if you discuss with me beforehand.
The layout options for the springs will be ANSI, ISO, and HHKB (split right shift only and both split shift and split backspace).
The key options will be bring your own set (if you mail it to me I can have the factory install it, no extra charge), ANSI, black blank, regular blank, and your own language (ISO) as long as Unicomp makes it. I will also try to get APL and front printed keys but those will both cost more. The costs will be passed along: whatever Unicomp charges on their web site. I will also try to get some used Model M ANSI key sets.
I personally would like the option of titanium / silver kind of look or pewter color.
Now we need to convince you to do a M0113 remake.
Post by: alienman82 on Tue, 29 December 2015, 22:19:45
Ir0n the lower serial number options will be available on the web site for a slightly higher charge if you want to be a higher-level project supporter :). Besides that, they will ship and you will get a serial number in order of when your order comes in.
Wrapping up final things:
Europe F77/F62 shipping proxies - any volunteers?
You would be receiving a number of keyboards and shipping them out across Europe, for those who want to save on shipping costs. For example, the post office charges about $51 for a 7 pound package but $91 for a 28 pound package (I don't know the final weight of the keyboards just yet). Then those in Europe would pay you directly for the charges to ship within Europe.
Custom Colors - on the interest form some of you said you'd like a custom color. I will try to get black, but are there any other colors you really want, even if tooling costs were $20 to $100 extra? Please let me know by replying here or over PM. The more people interested in your suggested color, the lower the tooling costs to change colors.
Keyboard options -
The case color options will be for Off-White/Beige, Gray, and a custom color if you discuss with me beforehand.
The layout options for the springs will be ANSI, ISO, and HHKB (split right shift only and both split shift and split backspace).
The key options will be bring your own set (if you mail it to me I can have the factory install it, no extra charge), ANSI, black blank, regular blank, and your own language (ISO) as long as Unicomp makes it. I will also try to get APL and front printed keys but those will both cost more. The costs will be passed along: whatever Unicomp charges on their web site. I will also try to get some used Model M ANSI key sets.
dat industrial grey? That'd be the ****
Post by: Dodgy on Wed, 30 December 2015, 18:04:14
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 30 December 2015, 20:00:01
[attachimg=1]
The order form will be opened after I approve of the prototypes. The prototypes should arrive by the end of next week hopefully.
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Wed, 30 December 2015, 20:02:21
Yes here is a post from DT showing a HHKB option:
(Attachment Link)
The order form will be opened after I approve of the prototypes. The prototypes should arrive by the end of next week hopefully.
Could we get a count down as to when the orders open?
Also for the low numbers what is the extra fee. I'd like #4 but you said that people who donate more have access to those numbers.
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 30 December 2015, 21:09:41
The order form will be opened after I approve of the prototypes. The prototypes should arrive by the end of next week hopefully.
Thank you for letting us know :thumb: .
Very excited about this, am ready to pounce on my first Model-F Keyboard like a rabid mutt.
Post by: bocahgundul on Wed, 30 December 2015, 21:42:27
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 30 December 2015, 22:49:59
I'm not late to the party right? Hope this GB a success so that we can make a FSSK, btw I don't know what to choose f62 or f77 :(
Don't worry, you've got 7 days to make your mind up.
After he posts the link that will be it, no more Model-F's ever to built in anyone's lifetime 8) .
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 30 December 2015, 22:55:46
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 30 December 2015, 23:21:12
Techno you might be interested in portions of my DT post (recopied below) regarding my thoughts on the feasibility of continuous larger-scale Model F production, the two-month order window, and an explanation of tooling. This is why I suggest to get in on this project and submit the Google Docs interest form if you'd like to own one or more brand new Model F reproductions.
Despite this being a $70,000+ project judging by current interest (220+ preorders), this is considered a really small project for factories and everything needs to be ordered in one or two batches to get the price down to $325 per keyboard. Tooling involves the effort to set up the factory's machines to make a particular project - once my few hundred units are done, they reconfigure the machines for something else.
In contrast, the F77 and F62 prototypes arriving next week cost thousands of $$$ each to make as there were no economies of scale.
For production to be "continuous" and for parts and keyboards to be available year-round you'd need to pre-pay for and hold tens of thousands of dollars of inventory. Someone would need to spend about $35,000 to hold just 100 extra keyboards' worth of inventory.
This is the reason for the one or two month window - too short a window and people miss out, but too long a window and people are waiting too long for their order to arrive. I would like to ship these as soon as possible. The project was announced in June so everyone will have had 6 months to come across it and ~two months to place their order.
I am willing to work with anyone or any company that wants to order X number of units and sell them, including Amazon, Massdrop, etc. If anyone can help in this regard (marketing) and/or has industry contacts, please do let me know over PM.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 01 January 2016, 17:03:21
These delays are frustrating but the factory has been very patient and otherwise attentive to such a small project and I am glad they are working with me.
Post by: tribade on Fri, 01 January 2016, 19:25:31
The factory used the wrong type of packing foam for the prototype units, instead of the styrofoam material I specified. As I want the prototypes to be perfect, even the styrofoam packing, I am waiting until they re-make the styrofoam packaging early next week. This will probably push the date the prototypes arrive to the week of Jan. 11th.
These delays are frustrating but the factory has been very patient and otherwise attentive to such a small project and I am glad they are working with me.
No worries! I'd rather have a perfect product that takes a little longer to get made!
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 01 January 2016, 19:58:22
I know that some of you prefer to pay for and receive the full keyset and I'd like that to stay an option too, but if we can save ~1/3 of the cost of each keyset for most buyers, that could mean a savings of ~$1000 assuming 120 keyset orders that would be passed back to everyone. Some of you may want a future option to change your layout and you'd like the extra new keys, which is also why I'd like to keep that full set as an option.
Here are my proposed product notes for the web site - please let me know if I should change anything before it goes live:
For those ordering keys for their F77, by default the 15 keys on the right side are populated like an SSK: the PrintScreen/Scroll Lock/Pause/Ins/Del/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn keys, some blank keys, and the 4 cursor/arrow keys. If you’d prefer the PC AT-style layout with number keys in that place plus some cursor keys, please let me know. You’ll need to order an extra 1U wide zero key. You can also have a variation with the original big zero key if you buy a horizontal stabilizer insert – just let me know by filling out the note field in the final step of checkout.
To keep things vintage, the packing slip will likely be printed using a dot matrix printer on new old stock dot matrix printer paper :) [note-I bought a used dot matrix printer and some new old stock continuous form green bar paper for this project]
ISO enter key will be included for ISO blank key set.
For HHKB/split right shift and split backspace printed layouts, custom printed keys will be included (if available from Unicomp): Delete key the size of | \, 1U size | \, stepped Ctrl/Ctrl-style Caps Lock, Caps-Lock style Shift, and 1U Fn. For the HHKB set with the non-split backspace, you will not receive the 1U | \ key and the | \-sized backspace key.
HHKB style keysets with blank keys will include the extra caps lock and 1U style keys.
Black blank key sets do not include regular right shift per Unicomp - instead the Caps Lock style key and an extra 1U key will be included.
I am ordering the keys from Unicomp - if their pricing or availability changes I will get in touch with you with options.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 01 January 2016, 20:54:00
I still have the 5 1391401 keyboards without keys/inserts and will have these 7 M122 keyboards without keys/stabilizer inserts available. The price is dropping from $20 to $15 per incomplete 1391401 and feel free to negotiate a price for the M122s.
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 01 January 2016, 22:35:13
I am ordering the keys from Unicomp - if their pricing or availability changes I will get in touch with you with options.
Also let us know, if you shall be supplying coloured text/numbers on the keys like what Unicomp offers such as Green, Blue and my favorite Red.
Getting prices for that would be good plus we can mix and match casings with the coloured keys, for that extra customization 8) .
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 01 January 2016, 23:04:11
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 02 January 2016, 01:11:21
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 02 January 2016, 05:12:39
Oh yeah 1 more question does this have the click solenoid like one of the original? :p
Aren't the Model-F keys loud enough when used, some were complaining about that earlier on?
The "Click Solenoid" will make the keys even louder which might be good for your neighbours down the block, that would love hearing your typing around midnight :thumb: .
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 02 January 2016, 05:19:10
Yep I really want to get the neighrbours real mad. click solenoid is cool tho too bad its not available with this GBOh yeah 1 more question does this have the click solenoid like one of the original? :p
Aren't the Model-F keys loud enough when used, some were complaining about that earlier on?
The "Click Solenoid" will make the keys even louder which might be good for your neighbours down the block, that would love hearing your typing around midnight :thumb: .
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 02 January 2016, 13:21:08
So the cost would be $325 keyboard + 4 stabilizer inserts totaling $6 + $3 spacebar + $40 R, G, or B key set = $374. All those prices besides the keyboard itself are Unicomp's currently listed prices.
bocah there is no solenoid or buzzer with this project. GH user orihalcon may have an extra 4704 buzzer which should work with this project.
Post by: ctm on Sat, 02 January 2016, 18:45:28
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 02 January 2016, 19:32:56
Elrick yes you can buy Red, Green, or Blue keys. Those keys are $15 more than the regular printed set, according to Unicomp's web site.
So the cost would be $325 keyboard + 4 stabilizer inserts totaling $6 + $3 spacebar + $40 R, G, or B key set = $374. All those prices besides the keyboard itself are Unicomp's currently listed prices.
HOT DAMN :o .
Now I want this EVEN MORE .......... Please make sure I get some of that BLUE coloured goodness for my F77 keyboard. If they can't supply all the Blue keys I would be willing to accept the plain Black coloured legends, but that's if the F77 can't take all the BLUE coloured keys.
I am so excited by this, my first Model-F keyboard in an all metal casing built to out live me, what more could you want?
Post by: Snowdog993 on Sat, 02 January 2016, 19:41:50
Elrick yes you can buy Red, Green, or Blue keys. Those keys are $15 more than the regular printed set, according to Unicomp's web site.
So the cost would be $325 keyboard + 4 stabilizer inserts totaling $6 + $3 spacebar + $40 R, G, or B key set = $374. All those prices besides the keyboard itself are Unicomp's currently listed prices.
HOT DAMN :o .
Now I want this EVEN MORE .......... Please make sure I get some of that BLUE coloured goodness for my F77 keyboard. If they can't supply all the Blue keys I would be willing to accept the plain Black coloured legends, but that's if the F77 can't take all the BLUE coloured keys.
I am so excited by this, my first Model-F keyboard in an all metal casing built to out live me, what more could you want?
No, I don't think you understand. The keys will still be the standard Pearl/Pebble, but the legends can be red, green, or blue. Take a look, I believe this is what Ellipse was going on about.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/FullRGBKeys
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 02 January 2016, 20:50:49
No, I don't think you understand. The keys will still be the standard Pearl/Pebble, but the legends can be red, green, or blue. Take a look, I believe this is what Ellipse was going on about.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/FullRGBKeys (http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/FullRGBKeys)
Dear Snowdog993,
I know Unicomp shall supply only COLOURED Legends onto the standard Pearl/Pebble series of caps. Have known that for years but you can request specific coloured keys from them if you're willing to pay for it.
Content with just having all Blue Legends for mine, which will go brilliantly with an all Gray Keyboard Casing :thumb: .
Post by: Snowdog993 on Sat, 02 January 2016, 20:53:07
No, I don't think you understand. The keys will still be the standard Pearl/Pebble, but the legends can be red, green, or blue. Take a look, I believe this is what Ellipse was going on about.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/FullRGBKeys (http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/FullRGBKeys)
Dear Snowdog993,
I know Unicomp shall supply only COLOURED Legends onto the standard Pearl/Pebble series of caps. Have known that for years but you can request specific coloured keys from them if you're willing to pay for it.
Content with just having all Blue Legends for mine, which will go brilliantly with an all Gray Keyboard Casing :thumb: .
Yes, definitely. I thought you were saying blue keycaps with black legends. Never mind me. I just misunderstood what you said.
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 03 January 2016, 04:44:19
Yes, definitely. I thought you were saying blue keycaps with black legends. Never mind me. I just misunderstood what you said.
The F77 has a different layout to most standard keyboards that is why I mentioned mixing plain old Black legended (if it means anything) keys, to fill up any spare space on the keyboard.
Don't forget that each buyer can choose any number of layouts with this keyboard so it can be both exciting and also excruciatingly miserable, in filling your whole keyboard up with the appropriate keys.
Post by: user 18 on Sun, 03 January 2016, 16:14:16
A noob question, why are there 4 barrels on left of spacebar barrel? In all the kishsaver photos I see, there are only 3 keys on left of spacebar.
The innermost barrel there is for stabilization of the spacebar, I believe.
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 03 January 2016, 16:42:29
A noob question, why are there 4 barrels on left of spacebar barrel? In all the kishsaver photos I see, there are only 3 keys on left of spacebar.
The innermost barrel there is for stabilization of the spacebar, I believe.
I concur, the F Unsaver and F122 use the same setup with the externally wire stabilized space bar. By external, I mean the wire is above the plate.
Post by: KetchyKech on Mon, 04 January 2016, 14:09:59
(noobie here)
I just stumbled across this when I read about it on keychatter....needless to say my next 2-3hours were wasted trying to educate myself on buckling spring and why they are so desired. For weeks I've been ready to throw all my money at a Korean custom, be it winkeyless.kr or the eternal wait for a custom GON (and surely I will eventually)....but I'm not sure I can let this slip by!!
sorry if it's been asked but do you offer full assembly? If so, what would the additional cost be? Thank you!!
(edit: nvm! looks like its a piece of cake to put together -- hopefully it is ;)
P.S. - Any plans on giving this a proper name!? (if it doesnt have one by now...)
edit: +1 for a detachable USB!!! <--- icing on the cake
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 04 January 2016, 20:12:47
Yes this is the only mechanical keyboard project where you can buy a brand new mechanical keyboard with an alternative to an MX-type switch, and it will only be open for a two-month window before production ends again). Model F's were the gold standard mechanical keyboard back in the 1980s. A 122-key Model F cost $295 when it was introduced in 1984, or over $670 adjusted for inflation. With this project you can buy a brand new Model F for about the same price it sold for in 1984 dollars!
They come fully made and assembled in China, even with any custom layout you choose, as long as the original barrels support it.
Regarding the keyboard names, while the brand new Model F keyboards from this project can support any number of keys, I chose model names that reflect their original key counts; hence they were named F62 and F77.
Post by: KetchyKech on Mon, 04 January 2016, 20:26:33
Thanks KetchyKech - yep if you're interested please complete the Google Docs interest form in the first tab and I will email you a link when the orders open, hopefully next week.
Yes this is the only mechanical keyboard project where you can buy a brand new mechanical keyboard with an alternative to an MX-type switch, and it will only be open for a two-month window before production ends again). Model F's were the gold standard mechanical keyboard back in the 1980s. A 122-key Model F cost $295 when it was introduced in 1984, or over $670 adjusted for inflation. With this project you can buy a brand new Model F for about the same price it sold for in 1984 dollars!
They come fully made and assembled in China, even with any custom layout you choose, as long as the original barrels support it.
Regarding the keyboard names, while the brand new Model F keyboards from this project can support any number of keys, I chose model names that reflect their original key counts; hence they were named F62 and F77.
Why thank you sir! I certainly will be submitting a form. I realized the staggering oppourtunity that this groupbuy represented earlier today, haha! Thanks for taking the time to educate me, i'll be keeping in touch regarding some custom colors options:]~
Post by: fanpeople on Mon, 04 January 2016, 20:29:30
Yes this is the only mechanical keyboard project where you can buy a brand new mechanical keyboard with an alternative to an MX-type switch, and it will only be open for a two-month window before production ends again)
Sorry if this question seems thick but does that mean we will have 2 months to place an order and pay once the ordering medium opens?
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 04 January 2016, 22:00:33
Post by: livingspeedbump on Mon, 04 January 2016, 22:04:25
fanpeople - you can place an order in the two month order window - you are charged when you place the order. Then in late March/early April I will close the order form and place the order. Production should take 1-2 months. The orders ship in order of received payment - hopefully starting in May.
you're making me so excited right now...
Post by: fanpeople on Mon, 04 January 2016, 22:15:58
fanpeople - you can place an order in the two month order window - you are charged when you place the order. Then in late March/early April I will close the order form and place the order. Production should take 1-2 months. The orders ship in order of received payment - hopefully starting in May.
Ah sweet thanks for the answer, hopefully give me a chance to raise funds for one of each.
Post by: livingspeedbump on Mon, 04 January 2016, 22:19:27
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 04 January 2016, 22:59:09
fanpeople - you can place an order in the two month order window - you are charged when you place the order. Then in late March/early April I will close the order form and place the order. Production should take 1-2 months. The orders ship in order of received payment - hopefully starting in May.
you're making me so excited right now...
Too fvcking Right ;D .
This is the Group Buy to be in right now. A real mechanical keyboard done right in 2016, something that is extremely rare and never to be repeated again any time soon.
For all the newbs here, if you miss this one then don't ever call yourself a "Mechanical Keyboard Fanatic" because you have shown your true ignorance in front of every other keyboard fanboy on this forum site. Proof of your keyboard addiction is in getting a couple of these babies and using them everyday till the day you die.
Time to front up and show your commitment in ownership of some really fine "Keyboard Excellence".
Post by: livingspeedbump on Mon, 04 January 2016, 23:03:12
fanpeople - you can place an order in the two month order window - you are charged when you place the order. Then in late March/early April I will close the order form and place the order. Production should take 1-2 months. The orders ship in order of received payment - hopefully starting in May.
you're making me so excited right now...
Too fvcking Right ;D .
This is the Group Buy to be in right now. A real mechanical keyboard done right in 2016, something that is extremely rare and never to be repeated again any time soon.
For all the newbs here, if you miss this one then don't ever call yourself a "Mechanical Keyboard Fanatic" because you have shown your true ignorance in front of every other keyboard fanboy on this forum site. Proof of your keyboard addiction is in getting a couple of these babies and using them everyday till the day you die.
Time to front up and show your commitment to Keyboard Excellence.
Honestly though, most of the newcomers will miss out on this i feel like, sadly. Most have never used a Model F to know how it feels superior over even the Model M's, much less the clicky options that are popular now. Plus it isn't flashy, and will probably just leave them confused. The newcomers are like brand new kids that turn 21, and the Razers are the Coors Light. Nothing wrong with that, everyone goes through that stage. But, this is like a beer for the proper adults. :thumb:
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 04 January 2016, 23:50:10
This would mean that we could start production after the order form has been open for 2-3 weeks if we wanted to, for the early birds, and then the second and final order group for everyone else at the end of the two month window, instead of one big run starting in a little over two months from now.
I won't be asking every potential early bird to pay a little extra. Instead I was thinking if 15 people were willing to donate $100 towards the extra early production run, or any combination of "early bird premiums" to get to $1,500, then this would be feasible. I will leave this option up to the DT and GH community ordering these to decide.
Would 15 people gladly pay $100 to have everyone ordering early be able to get their keyboard 4-5 weeks earlier? Feel free to PM me or post if you are interested. Maybe we could arrange some special bonus for these early bird donors, like their user name on the quality control sticker inside the Model F or something like that.
Post by: livingspeedbump on Tue, 05 January 2016, 00:33:56
Here's an interesting option for those who want to want to get their keyboard a month or so earlier, as early as the end of March/early April instead of May/June: My understanding is that the factory is willing to break the order into two production runs for a tooling/setup fee of $1,500. Meaning they will set up their tooling for this product, make it, then re-set up the tooling for the second and final group for $1,500 extra.
This would mean that we could start production after the order form has been open for 2-3 weeks if we wanted to, for the early birds, and then the second and final order group for everyone else at the end of the two month window, instead of one big run starting in a little over two months from now.
I won't be asking every potential early bird to pay a little extra. Instead I was thinking if 15 people were willing to donate $100 towards the extra early production run, or any combination of "early bird premiums" to get to $1,500, then this would be feasible. I will leave this option up to the DT and GH community ordering these to decide.
Would 15 people gladly pay $100 to have everyone ordering early be able to get their keyboard 4-5 weeks earlier? Feel free to PM me or post if you are interested. Maybe we could arrange some special bonus for these early bird donors, like their user name on the quality control sticker inside the Model F or something like that.
I'd totally be into this.
Post by: raymogi on Tue, 05 January 2016, 00:35:03
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 05 January 2016, 01:47:58
Would 15 people gladly pay $100 to have everyone ordering early be able to get their keyboard 4-5 weeks earlier? Feel free to PM me or post if you are interested. Maybe we could arrange some special bonus for these early bird donors, like their user name on the quality control sticker inside the Model F or something like that.
Sign me up for an Early Bird Edition 8) .
An extra $100 is nothing when it comes to getting exclusivity before anyone else and besides too desperate to keep on waiting for this keyboard.
Post by: Cods on Tue, 05 January 2016, 04:08:45
Post by: joey on Tue, 05 January 2016, 10:40:30
Any idea on shipping to the UK?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 05 January 2016, 17:26:04
Not sure on shipping charges as I do not know the weight of the product. You can use the USPS shipping calculator and make some assumptions - the keyboards could be 6 to 8 pounds with packaging?
OK so it looks like we have 4 earlybird tooling volunteers on GH and 2 from DT so far out of the 15 needed. There is no rush as we can open up ordering even though we don't know whether the keyboards will ship extra early or not just yet.
Another bonus of being a tooling volunteer is you'll be one of the first to ship out as I'll be giving preference to you. I am hand inspecting every keyboard before it ships so it could take weeks to do that before everything is mailed.
Post by: KetchyKech on Tue, 05 January 2016, 17:42:48
the more people want the white case, the lower the extra tooling cost goes down for that custom color.
soo post up if you want a ghost white case :cool:
Post by: Lurch on Tue, 05 January 2016, 17:47:10
Post by: Pemdas on Tue, 05 January 2016, 17:51:47
Post by: joey on Tue, 05 January 2016, 17:53:48
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 05 January 2016, 18:00:37
I just want to make sure that I am asking for some early birds to help cover $100 each for the earlier round. You can also just pay the original amount earlier as well and still be an early bird.
Cods, Lurch, and Pemdas are you volunteering to cover the extra $100 towards the $1500 in tooling for an early bird round? Or just paying in the first few weeks to get in early? It's not clear.
Post by: Cods on Tue, 05 January 2016, 18:17:17
I'll actually be looking to buy the following:
Earlybird Round
- 1x F62
- Industrial Grey case
- Full, complete keyset, preferably with blue legends
- Apple keyset addition, with blue legends, if that's something that can be arranged
Final Round
- 1x F77
- Industrial Grey case
- Full, complete keyset, preferably with red legends
- Apple keyset addition, with red legends, if that's something that can be arranged
I'm also interested in the alternative cases, additional barrels/parts/layout elements/etc, but am still thinking about those.
[Edited for clarity]
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 05 January 2016, 18:34:40
Shipping them separately might be a lot more costly if you are shipping outside the US. You may want to order them all at once.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Tue, 05 January 2016, 23:17:16
Would Unicomp be willing to sell custom sets for this project, with gray mods and brilliant white alphas? I really like this combo. If so, can they offer the top row with front printed function keys in brilliant white?
You can see the gray/brilliant white combo on the Unicomp Ultra Classic buy at Massdrop. I think this would look outstanding on my industrial gray F77!
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/unicomp-ultra-classic?mode=guest_open (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/unicomp-ultra-classic?mode=guest_open)
Post by: Lurch on Wed, 06 January 2016, 04:23:12
Cods, Lurch, and Pemdas are you volunteering to cover the extra $100 towards the $1500 in tooling for an early bird round? Or just paying in the first few weeks to get in early? It's not clear.
I'm willing to chip in $100 towards the tooling for an early bird round.
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 06 January 2016, 04:36:29
Would Unicomp be willing to sell custom sets for this project, with gray mods and brilliant white alphas? I really like this combo. If so, can they offer the top row with front printed function keys in brilliant white?
You can see the gray/brilliant white combo on the Unicomp Ultra Classic buy at Massdrop. I think this would look outstanding on my industrial gray F77!
This would be superb, having this colour-way applied for our future F77's. If this happens then I want to buy this set as soon as possible :thumb: .
Post by: Pemdas on Wed, 06 January 2016, 15:01:25
Yes there will be spare parts ordered.
I just want to make sure that I am asking for some early birds to help cover $100 each for the earlier round. You can also just pay the original amount earlier as well and still be an early bird.
Cods, Lurch, and Pemdas are you volunteering to cover the extra $100 towards the $1500 in tooling for an early bird round? Or just paying in the first few weeks to get in early? It's not clear.
Sorry I wasn't clearer but I would be willing to put in the extra $100 for the tooling costs :thumb:
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 06 January 2016, 17:36:39
Post by: Ir0n on Wed, 06 January 2016, 22:14:28
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 06 January 2016, 22:17:36
Once we get 5 more $100 early bird tooling contributors, then it will be possible to get the first few weeks' worth of orders in early - just the 15 early bird tooling supporters are volunteering to pay extra for the early run but everyone can benefit from it without extra charge :)
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 07 January 2016, 19:15:10
Or will we need to pm you direct for prices?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 07 January 2016, 19:47:24
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 07 January 2016, 21:24:56
There will be a web site where you can add parts to your shopping cart.
I want that website address soon Ellipse, the waiting is killing me >:( .
Post by: Techno Trousers on Thu, 07 January 2016, 21:34:25
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 07 January 2016, 21:49:55
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 08 January 2016, 00:20:52
I could definitely see this being an attractive story to the big tech sites and their readers, if it's presented in the right way. Certainly it's much more compelling to me than the Qwerkywriter keyboard, and that has received a LOT of coverage and Kickstarter support.
Post by: joey on Fri, 08 January 2016, 04:49:34
Post by: againer on Fri, 08 January 2016, 15:38:06
If I could write better in english I could try to help you with texting. But with my skills that would be pointless.
To generate a Hype around the Project it could help if the first batch of keyboards arrives some time before the ordering window for the second batch is closed. So ppl can spread reviews on all kind of social platforms. But I think that does not really match with your plans.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 08 January 2016, 16:02:36
I also don't want them to rush production or tooling setup because it could jeopardize the quality of the goods.
joey that's fine - everyone will get the early bird at no extra charge thanks to the 15 early tooling volunteers (assuming we get 5 more!).
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 08 January 2016, 19:25:51
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 08 January 2016, 19:30:30
Post by: romevi on Fri, 08 January 2016, 19:33:15
Look what arrived today :) The dot matrix printer for the packing slip included with each F62/F77-containing order! It works well, and it will work with the tractor pull green bar paper from earlier (I bought a few hundred sheets).
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
No f'n way.
Post by: raymogi on Fri, 08 January 2016, 19:34:50
Look what arrived today :) The dot matrix printer for the packing slip included with each F62/F77-containing order! It works well, and it will work with the tractor pull green bar paper from earlier (I bought a few hundred sheets).
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Oh wow that's just the icing on the cake right there.
Post by: rowdy on Fri, 08 January 2016, 20:22:36
Look what arrived today :) The dot matrix printer for the packing slip included with each F62/F77-containing order! It works well, and it will work with the tractor pull green bar paper from earlier (I bought a few hundred sheets).
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
This kind of attention to detail is what contributes to this being absolutely awesome! :D
Post by: Pemdas on Fri, 08 January 2016, 23:51:04
Look what arrived today :) The dot matrix printer for the packing slip included with each F62/F77-containing order! It works well, and it will work with the tractor pull green bar paper from earlier (I bought a few hundred sheets).
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Wow that's awesome! I haven't seen that kind of paper since I was in like middle school haha
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Fri, 08 January 2016, 23:51:47
I gotta say Ellipse, you're definitely the man, man. :thumb:
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 08 January 2016, 23:59:18
Post by: atlas3686 on Sat, 09 January 2016, 03:41:40
Look what arrived today :) The dot matrix printer for the packing slip included with each F62/F77-containing order! It works well, and it will work with the tractor pull green bar paper from earlier (I bought a few hundred sheets).
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Awesome! :thumb: :thumb:
Post by: scumyc on Sun, 10 January 2016, 11:20:54
I have been looking into the possibility of getting my favorite 60% layout for the 62-key and I just thought I would post it to see if anyone else was interested and wanted to help out with the up-front tooling costs (after which, boards will cost the same as any other 62-key). Total cost is still TBD, this is just a preliminary inquiry.
Here it is:
[attach=1]
To my knowledge, no one else likes this layout, but I figured it couldn't hurt to check. One thing worth noting is that all these keys come in a standard winkey set (6.25 space, 1.25 mods). However, I am not the biggest fan of the stepped 1.75.
This may also apply to anyone who is a fan of split right shift layouts, but I have ordered a 3D printed non-stepped 1.75 unit key to try out because I do not like stepped caps lock. It won't ship until the 18th, but I hope to post a brief review when it arrives.
http://www.shapeways.com/product/YMFXWFRAK/ibm-model-m-keycap-1-75-non-stepped-v2?li=shop-results&optionId=40367442 (http://www.shapeways.com/product/YMFXWFRAK/ibm-model-m-keycap-1-75-non-stepped-v2?li=shop-results&optionId=40367442)
Edit: it turns out unicomp does not do a 6.25 unit space bar. I updated the layout for the 5.75 "small" spacebar
Post by: ctm on Sun, 10 January 2016, 11:27:15
First off, this project looks awesome! Great work so far!Does F62 supports four keys on right of spacebar? I only see three barrels there.
I have been looking into the possibility of getting my favorite 60% layout for the 62-key and I just thought I would post it to see if anyone else was interested and wanted to help out with the up-front tooling costs (after which, boards will cost the same as any other 62-key). Total cost is still TBD, this is just a preliminary inquiry.
Here it is:
(Attachment Link)
To my knowledge, no one else likes this layout, but I figured it couldn't hurt to check. One thing worth noting is that all these keys come in a standard winkey set (6.25 space, 1.25 mods). However, I am not the biggest fan of the stepped 1.75.
This may also apply to anyone who is a fan of split right shift layouts, but I have ordered a 3D printed non-stepped 1.75 unit key to try out because I do not like stepped caps lock. It won't ship until the 18th, but I hope to post a brief review when it arrives.
http://www.shapeways.com/product/YMFXWFRAK/ibm-model-m-keycap-1-75-non-stepped-v2?li=shop-results&optionId=40367442 (http://www.shapeways.com/product/YMFXWFRAK/ibm-model-m-keycap-1-75-non-stepped-v2?li=shop-results&optionId=40367442)
Post by: scumyc on Sun, 10 January 2016, 11:34:54
Quote
Does F62 supports four keys on right of spacebar? I only see three barrels there.
It does not, that is why there would be up-front tooling costs before the boards were available at the normal price.
Post by: BaconEggandCheeseBagel on Sun, 10 January 2016, 12:42:40
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 10 January 2016, 13:02:57
Can anyone volunteer a venue for hosting the IBM keyboard meetup in Manhattan this month? Even getting permission to use an office conference/meeting room would probably be fine.
And I can confirm what scumyc is proposing. It will require extra tooling for PCB, inner foam, and top inner assembly. It would be great if you could help scumyc with the tooling if you like his proposed layout for your F62. This is optional - you can order his layout for no added cost once tooling has been paid for.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 11 January 2016, 20:38:08
Also the boxes in the photos are the correct double walled specification but will be opening from the side with the production boxes instead of on top like in the prototype boxes shown in the photos.
Also a reminder that the powdercoated case colors are prototype colors and may not be the final colors.
I wonder if I am overprotecting these keyboards - all this extra packaging is going to run up a hefty shipping bill from China.
Once production finishes (production takes 1-2 months), then it will take a few weeks for sea mail from China. I was thinking of offering the option to pay for DHL or other expedited shipping options where it goes DHL Express, etc. to me and then I test it and send it out expedited shipping. This might enable you to get the keyboard a few weeks faster than expected.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: SixtyLife on Mon, 11 January 2016, 20:42:46
The prototypes and foam have been completed! They will be on their way to me this week via expedited shipping! Please note that the foam prototypes in the photos were adjusted/made with hand tools so they still have some rough areas and markings, but these will not be on the production styrofoam pieces.
Also the boxes in the photos are the correct double walled specification but will be opening from the side with the production boxes instead of on top like in the prototype boxes shown in the photos.
Also a reminder that the powdercoated case colors are prototype colors and may not be the final colors.
I wonder if I am overprotecting these keyboards - all this extra packaging is going to run up a hefty shipping bill from China.
Once production finishes (production takes 1-2 months), then it will take a few weeks for sea mail from China. I was thinking of offering the option to pay for DHL or other expedited shipping options where it goes DHL Express, etc. to me and then I test it and send it out expedited shipping. This might enable you to get the keyboard a few weeks faster than expected.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
nice!!!! can't wait to see these with some caps on. congrats and looking forward to the reviews Ellipse!
Post by: fanpeople on Mon, 11 January 2016, 20:56:53
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Mon, 11 January 2016, 20:59:23
The prototypes and foam have been completed! They will be on their way to me this week via expedited shipping! Please note that the foam prototypes in the photos were adjusted/made with hand tools so they still have some rough areas and markings, but these will not be on the production styrofoam pieces.
Also the boxes in the photos are the correct double walled specification but will be opening from the side with the production boxes instead of on top like in the prototype boxes shown in the photos.
Also a reminder that the powdercoated case colors are prototype colors and may not be the final colors.
I wonder if I am overprotecting these keyboards - all this extra packaging is going to run up a hefty shipping bill from China.
Once production finishes (production takes 1-2 months), then it will take a few weeks for sea mail from China. I was thinking of offering the option to pay for DHL or other expedited shipping options where it goes DHL Express, etc. to me and then I test it and send it out expedited shipping. This might enable you to get the keyboard a few weeks faster than expected.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Oh man! Love em and now I want to try one.
Post by: atlas3686 on Tue, 12 January 2016, 00:49:22
The prototypes and foam have been completed! They will be on their way to me this week via expedited shipping! Please note that the foam prototypes in the photos were adjusted/made with hand tools so they still have some rough areas and markings, but these will not be on the production styrofoam pieces.
Also the boxes in the photos are the correct double walled specification but will be opening from the side with the production boxes instead of on top like in the prototype boxes shown in the photos.
Also a reminder that the powdercoated case colors are prototype colors and may not be the final colors.
I wonder if I am overprotecting these keyboards - all this extra packaging is going to run up a hefty shipping bill from China.
Once production finishes (production takes 1-2 months), then it will take a few weeks for sea mail from China. I was thinking of offering the option to pay for DHL or other expedited shipping options where it goes DHL Express, etc. to me and then I test it and send it out expedited shipping. This might enable you to get the keyboard a few weeks faster than expected.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Oh that is super awesome, looking really good!
Post by: raymogi on Tue, 12 January 2016, 00:57:15
Post by: fanpeople on Tue, 12 January 2016, 00:58:04
Post by: naasfu on Tue, 12 January 2016, 01:02:41
i'm still agonizing over which color to get. grey, beige, black, grey, beige, black, grey...
Post by: raymogi on Tue, 12 January 2016, 01:04:38
oh wow. these look so good. and that styrofoam looks so fresh and crispy!
i'm still agonizing over which color to get. grey, beige, black, grey, beige, black, grey...
Black.
Post by: naasfu on Tue, 12 January 2016, 01:22:54
oh wow. these look so good. and that styrofoam looks so fresh and crispy!
i'm still agonizing over which color to get. grey, beige, black, grey, beige, black, grey...
Black.
hmm, i love black, but i already have two other black boards.
i am leaning towards grey right now. industrial grey always looked good in the photos i've seen. is it a true grey, or is it kind of greenish?
edit: one site describes the grey as a "military olive drab".
Post by: appleonama on Tue, 12 January 2016, 01:28:55
The prototypes and foam have been completed! They will be on their way to me this week via expedited shipping! Please note that the foam prototypes in the photos were adjusted/made with hand tools so they still have some rough areas and markings, but these will not be on the production styrofoam pieces.
Also the boxes in the photos are the correct double walled specification but will be opening from the side with the production boxes instead of on top like in the prototype boxes shown in the photos.
Also a reminder that the powdercoated case colors are prototype colors and may not be the final colors.
I wonder if I am overprotecting these keyboards - all this extra packaging is going to run up a hefty shipping bill from China.
Once production finishes (production takes 1-2 months), then it will take a few weeks for sea mail from China. I was thinking of offering the option to pay for DHL or other expedited shipping options where it goes DHL Express, etc. to me and then I test it and send it out expedited shipping. This might enable you to get the keyboard a few weeks faster than expected.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
This is awesome I will definitely buy one.
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 12 January 2016, 02:24:30
(Attachment Link)
BEAUTIFUL, this is the F77 I want so desperately :o .
Can't believe this is finally happening, a real Model-F built in 2016, you've done good Ellipse..........
Post by: fanpeople on Tue, 12 January 2016, 02:26:51
(Attachment Link)
BEAUTIFUL, this is the F77 I want so desperately :o .
Can't believe this is finally happening, a real Model-F built in 2016, you've done ****ing amazing magic Ellipse..........
FTFY
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 12 January 2016, 02:31:10
Best Keyboard protection anyone could of released as of yet, even registered corporations would not provide this level of security for any of their keyboard products.
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Tue, 12 January 2016, 02:33:25
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 12 January 2016, 02:46:54
God damn....I could make love to these boards all night. And I really appreciate the attention to packaging detail you're making because sometimes I get stuck with a guy/girl who really just doesn't care about my package and I end up with a nice gaping hole or crunch in the box haha. Haven't had anything broken yet :p .
Haha, know what you mean, even at my age seeing something so beautiful and fresh being sheaved in all heavy-duty foam, gets me all hard without any reservations - Ellipse has delivered on this venture ;) .
Post by: againer on Tue, 12 January 2016, 09:49:04
Post by: harlw on Tue, 12 January 2016, 09:55:15
Post by: KetchyKech on Tue, 12 January 2016, 10:25:57
I'm still in for a custom color (to be determined) whether or not people join in to lower the tooling cost! :p
can't wait :D
Post by: livingspeedbump on Tue, 12 January 2016, 12:07:15
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 12 January 2016, 22:38:01
Yes industrial grey will definitely be an option - the second picture is the prototype industrial gray color. Once I see it in person I may change the exact type of grey a little.
Some project draft graphics will be posted soon for your feedback! For the project web site logo I expect to use a buckling spring animation similar to ones found online, plus a still version. The logo will also have a description of the keyboard in the same dot matrix font that will be used on the birthday labels - something like "F62 Model F Keyboard."
Post by: livingspeedbump on Tue, 12 January 2016, 22:39:44
Today I ordered a sampling of Unicomp key sets for testing, in anticipation of the prototypes arriving hopefully next week!
Yes industrial grey will definitely be an option - the second picture is the prototype industrial gray color. Once I see it in person I may change the exact type of grey a little.
Some project draft graphics will be posted soon for your feedback! For the project web site logo I expect to use a buckling spring animation similar to ones found online, plus a still version. The logo will also have a description of the keyboard in the same dot matrix font that will be used on the birthday labels - something like "F62 Model F Keyboard."
Ive had really good luck with unicomp keys thus far. They feel fine and match vintage colors perfectly.
For those interested in getting caps from them, if you are in the US they are quite quick to ship, and shipping is often only 6 bucks for 2 day shipping which is great :thumb: Never had any issues ordering from them, and I usually have 1-2 orders a month from them.
Post by: Air tree on Tue, 12 January 2016, 22:49:04
To be honest, this will be my first Buckling spring board, capacitive or membrane. What should I expect? I've only used topre a lot, really.
Post by: livingspeedbump on Tue, 12 January 2016, 22:55:31
I have some money stashed away for this baby. I can't wait to be initiated in the bs cult of love.
To be honest, this will be my first Buckling spring board, capacitive or membrane. What should I expect? I've only used topre a lot, really.
Expect for BS over Membrane to never feel "great" after using one of these suckers. You'll sadly never be wowed by an SSK or Model M.
Post by: Snowdog993 on Tue, 12 January 2016, 23:00:25
The logo will also have a description of the keyboard in the same dot matrix font that will be used on the birthday labels - something like "F62 Model F Keyboard."
Font like E29 has in his Avatar... "F62" Just a simple logo. "F77" *On the Bezel*
That's all you really need.
The back label can be the descriptive part.
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 12 January 2016, 23:01:57
I have some money stashed away for this baby. I can't wait to be initiated in the bs cult of love.
To be honest, this will be my first Buckling spring board, capacitive or membrane. What should I expect? I've only used topre a lot, really.
Expect for BS over Membrane to never feel "great" after using one of these suckers. You'll sadly never be wowed by an SSK or Model M.
Words of greater truth have never been spoken.
Post by: Snowdog993 on Tue, 12 January 2016, 23:03:15
I have some money stashed away for this baby. I can't wait to be initiated in the bs cult of love.
To be honest, this will be my first Buckling spring board, capacitive or membrane. What should I expect? I've only used topre a lot, really.
Expect for BS over Membrane to never feel "great" after using one of these suckers. You'll sadly never be wowed by an SSK or Model M.
Words of greater truth have never been spoken.
"click".
Post by: livingspeedbump on Tue, 12 January 2016, 23:04:15
I have some money stashed away for this baby. I can't wait to be initiated in the bs cult of love.
To be honest, this will be my first Buckling spring board, capacitive or membrane. What should I expect? I've only used topre a lot, really.
Expect for BS over Membrane to never feel "great" after using one of these suckers. You'll sadly never be wowed by an SSK or Model M.
Words of greater truth have never been spoken.
"click".
I will actually probably be selling an SSK to fund part of this. Obviously, now nobody in this thread will want it haha
Post by: Snowdog993 on Tue, 12 January 2016, 23:11:01
I have some money stashed away for this baby. I can't wait to be initiated in the bs cult of love.
To be honest, this will be my first Buckling spring board, capacitive or membrane. What should I expect? I've only used topre a lot, really.
Expect for BS over Membrane to never feel "great" after using one of these suckers. You'll sadly never be wowed by an SSK or Model M.
Words of greater truth have never been spoken.
"click".
I will actually probably be selling an SSK to fund part of this. Obviously, now nobody in this thread will want it haha
I'm sure there is quite the demand for an SSK. I don't think you have to worry one bit.
Post by: Air tree on Tue, 12 January 2016, 23:21:59
I can't imagine anything better than a kishsaver, what bs board could top it?! I can think of none.I have some money stashed away for this baby. I can't wait to be initiated in the bs cult of love.
To be honest, this will be my first Buckling spring board, capacitive or membrane. What should I expect? I've only used topre a lot, really.
Expect for BS over Membrane to never feel "great" after using one of these suckers. You'll sadly never be wowed by an SSK or Model M.
Words of greater truth have never been spoken.
"click".
I will actually probably be selling an SSK to fund part of this. Obviously, now nobody in this thread will want it haha
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 12 January 2016, 23:26:26
[attachimg=1]
There will also be an internal sticker on the bottom inner assembly (at least for the early bird version, maybe for the other versions too) that will thank all those who helped the project and donated towards the early bird tooling run.
Post by: Snowdog993 on Tue, 12 January 2016, 23:36:05
Snowdog sorry for the confusion - there will be no visible logo on the keyboard itself, besides what's on the bottom label. On the birthday label there will be the buckling spring graphic. The label will say F77 or F62 on it. Attached is a sample logo without the graphic.
(Attachment Link)
There will also be an internal sticker on the bottom inner assembly (at least for the early bird version, maybe for the other versions too) that will thank all those who helped the project and donated towards the early bird tooling run.
Okay that makes sense.
Post by: livingspeedbump on Wed, 13 January 2016, 00:49:31
I feel like quite a few newcomers may miss out on this sale and opt to get in on flashier customs or keyboards while this is happening. I'm surely not blaming them, "old" keyboards aren't the most enticing in appearance (at first), and shelling out $325 for this when you can get a flashy GoN with nutty lighting and acrylic casing for the same ballpark price may lead many asking "why is this so special?" Model F's arent all that common, and many simply don't understand the magic they posses. Even Model M users that have never used an F don't know what they are missing, the F wins out over the M's any day of the week. Trust me, if you are reading this and considering another buy, put that on hold and get on this. There is always a fantastic looking full aluminum custom buy right around the corner ;)
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 13 January 2016, 05:06:34
I feel like quite a few newcomers may miss out on this sale and opt to get in on flashier customs or keyboards while this is happening. I'm surely not blaming them, "old" keyboards aren't the most enticing in appearance (at first), and shelling out $325 for this when you can get a flashy GoN with nutty lighting and acrylic casing for the same ballpark price may lead many asking "why is this so special?"
This area isn't for the newbs because they are more attracted to lights like ignorant moths ;D .
Can't change that because all youngsters care about today is that their keyboards all look like their iPhones with stupid colours and graphics. When they get older you'll see the look of failure upon their faces when asked what they did when this Model-F was released all those years ago. Whilst some of us shall be rejoicing on our purchases you'll have the losers lamenting their choice of keyboard, decomposing on their desks.
Some people have to learn the hard way in life, miss out on the important purchases that really matter..........
Post by: 3K on Wed, 13 January 2016, 10:01:32
Post by: ryahirv on Wed, 13 January 2016, 12:09:31
Post by: Air tree on Wed, 13 January 2016, 13:37:53
When you try stash away money for this buy, but there are artisan sales everywhere... :(Life has become a lot simpler now that I have lost interest in the artisan scene. Much less stressful. ^-^
Post by: livingspeedbump on Wed, 13 January 2016, 13:39:13
When you try stash away money for this buy, but there are artisan sales everywhere... :(Life has become a lot simpler now that I have lost interest in the artisan scene. Much less stressful. ^-^
right? I like keeping caps friends give me, but that is about it. I'm in this hobby for the keyboards anyways. The day I don't buy an epic keyboard because I bought too many keycaps is the day I bow out of this hobby all together.
Post by: dustinhxc on Wed, 13 January 2016, 13:46:40
The prototypes and foam have been completed! They will be on their way to me this week via expedited shipping! Please note that the foam prototypes in the photos were adjusted/made with hand tools so they still have some rough areas and markings, but these will not be on the production styrofoam pieces.
Also the boxes in the photos are the correct double walled specification but will be opening from the side with the production boxes instead of on top like in the prototype boxes shown in the photos.
Also a reminder that the powdercoated case colors are prototype colors and may not be the final colors.
I wonder if I am overprotecting these keyboards - all this extra packaging is going to run up a hefty shipping bill from China.
Once production finishes (production takes 1-2 months), then it will take a few weeks for sea mail from China. I was thinking of offering the option to pay for DHL or other expedited shipping options where it goes DHL Express, etc. to me and then I test it and send it out expedited shipping. This might enable you to get the keyboard a few weeks faster than expected.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Holy ****.... That kish... So sexy man! :eek:
Post by: againer on Wed, 13 January 2016, 14:40:56
So I dont have that problem.
But anyway this project is probably you only chance to type on a brand new f62 ever so dont miss it.
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 13 January 2016, 19:46:23
When you try stash away money for this buy, but there are artisan sales everywhere... :(Life has become a lot simpler now that I have lost interest in the artisan scene. Much less stressful. ^-^
Yep it's true once the insidious "Artisan" disease leaves you, everything is much clearer and calm.
Key-caps are no longer my reason to empty my bank accounts anymore, as it is to own a piece of historical significance such as an F77 Ellipse Keyboard. I only have eyes for this keyboard now everything else is now fading in the rear view mirror because I'm heading towards Model-F town where perfection resides.
Already made room on my desk for this wondrous keyboard now have to wait like everyone else for their availability :-\ .
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 13 January 2016, 19:47:42
These renderings show the graphics as they would appear on a box. I'm not sure where they will end up: on the box, the web site, the manual, etc. I'm going to look into adding one of these graphics to the boxes.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7]
[attachimg=8]
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 13 January 2016, 19:55:42
Post by: romevi on Wed, 13 January 2016, 20:02:09
That said, I really like the design of the second/third/fourth set.
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 13 January 2016, 21:23:39
One of the forum members generously helped design some really nice logos and a buckling spring animation for the project. They are similar to some of the buckling spring animations floating around different web sites.
These renderings show the graphics as they would appear on a box. I'm not sure where they will end up: on the box, the web site, the manual, etc. I'm going to look into adding one of these graphics to the boxes.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
What the HELL, where's the Model F77 >:( ?
Graphics is all good BUT the most important part in all this is the actual KEYBOARDS, all I want to know is when are they available to purchase?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 13 January 2016, 21:30:14
Post by: bocahgundul on Wed, 13 January 2016, 22:10:14
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 13 January 2016, 22:42:38
Post by: raymogi on Wed, 13 January 2016, 23:18:35
Post by: Jedi on Wed, 13 January 2016, 23:36:00
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Thu, 14 January 2016, 02:37:23
MoreI feel like quite a few newcomers may miss out on this sale and opt to get in on flashier customs or keyboards while this is happening. I'm surely not blaming them, "old" keyboards aren't the most enticing in appearance (at first), and shelling out $325 for this when you can get a flashy GoN with nutty lighting and acrylic casing for the same ballpark price may lead many asking "why is this so special?"
This area isn't for the newbs because they are more attracted to lights like ignorant moths ;D .
Can't change that because all youngsters care about today is that their keyboards all look like their iPhones with stupid colours and graphics. When they get older you'll see the look of failure upon their faces when asked what they did when this Model-F was released all those years ago. Whilst some of us shall be rejoicing on our purchases you'll have the losers lamenting their choice of keyboard, decomposing on their desks.
Some people have to learn the hard way in life, miss out on the important purchases that really matter..........
You know Elrick, I thought I'd get used to your enthusiastic way of speaking, but sometimes it comes off as really grating haha, especially this comment on young keyboarders. Rather than harsh on their mellow why not just inform them and show them why these keyboards so special to everyone here?
Post by: fanpeople on Thu, 14 January 2016, 02:41:43
MoreI feel like quite a few newcomers may miss out on this sale and opt to get in on flashier customs or keyboards while this is happening. I'm surely not blaming them, "old" keyboards aren't the most enticing in appearance (at first), and shelling out $325 for this when you can get a flashy GoN with nutty lighting and acrylic casing for the same ballpark price may lead many asking "why is this so special?"
This area isn't for the newbs because they are more attracted to lights like ignorant moths ;D .
Can't change that because all youngsters care about today is that their keyboards all look like their iPhones with stupid colours and graphics. When they get older you'll see the look of failure upon their faces when asked what they did when this Model-F was released all those years ago. Whilst some of us shall be rejoicing on our purchases you'll have the losers lamenting their choice of keyboard, decomposing on their desks.
Some people have to learn the hard way in life, miss out on the important purchases that really matter..........
You know Elrick, I thought I'd get used to your enthusiastic way of speaking, but sometimes it comes off as really grating haha, especially this comment on young keyboarders. Rather than harsh on their mellow why not just inform them and show them why these keyboards so special to everyone here?
You know how at school there are the younger teachers that seem to adapt to the modern way of doing things, but then there is always the old grumpy one which yearns to just rip off their belt and give you a flogging. No matter what the principle does, their ways cannot be adapted so they just sit and patiently wait for them to retire so that chapter in the education system can be closed......
well I think Elrick is the slap happy teacher.
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 14 January 2016, 02:49:51
well I think Elrick is the slap happy teacher.
I like this youngster, he has ............potential 8) .
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Thu, 14 January 2016, 03:22:16
MoreMoreI feel like quite a few newcomers may miss out on this sale and opt to get in on flashier customs or keyboards while this is happening. I'm surely not blaming them, "old" keyboards aren't the most enticing in appearance (at first), and shelling out $325 for this when you can get a flashy GoN with nutty lighting and acrylic casing for the same ballpark price may lead many asking "why is this so special?"
This area isn't for the newbs because they are more attracted to lights like ignorant moths ;D .
Can't change that because all youngsters care about today is that their keyboards all look like their iPhones with stupid colours and graphics. When they get older you'll see the look of failure upon their faces when asked what they did when this Model-F was released all those years ago. Whilst some of us shall be rejoicing on our purchases you'll have the losers lamenting their choice of keyboard, decomposing on their desks.
Some people have to learn the hard way in life, miss out on the important purchases that really matter..........
You know Elrick, I thought I'd get used to your enthusiastic way of speaking, but sometimes it comes off as really grating haha, especially this comment on young keyboarders. Rather than harsh on their mellow why not just inform them and show them why these keyboards so special to everyone here?
You know how at school there are the younger teachers that seem to adapt to the modern way of doing things, but then there is always the old grumpy one which yearns to just rip off their belt and give you a flogging. No matter what the principle does, their ways cannot be adapted so they just sit and patiently wait for them to retire so that chapter in the education system can be closed......
well I think Elrick is the slap happy teacher.
Tenure is a blessing and a curse :p
Post by: Air tree on Thu, 14 January 2016, 03:31:03
I've beaten you're theory elrick, I guess I'm an outlier. Or maybe your theory is more anecdotal, I'd imagine most young people on this forum have very different opinions on this matter than some random youth on the street. :-*
Post by: bocahgundul on Thu, 14 January 2016, 06:30:41
I'm probably among the youngest on the forum and I favour a F62 rather than a GON or some other such board.I'm the youngest here and I like the f better than those ****ty christmas tree keyboard :mad:
I've beaten you're theory elrick, I guess I'm an outlier. Or maybe your theory is more anecdotal, I'd imagine most young people on this forum have very different opinions on this matter than some random youth on the street. :-*
Post by: fanpeople on Thu, 14 January 2016, 06:37:54
What about the d :pI'm probably among the youngest on the forum and I favour a F62 rather than a GON or some other such board.I'm the youngest here and I like the f better than those ****ty christmas tree keyboard :mad:
I've beaten you're theory elrick, I guess I'm an outlier. Or maybe your theory is more anecdotal, I'd imagine most young people on this forum have very different opinions on this matter than some random youth on the street. :-*
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 14 January 2016, 06:41:23
I'm probably among the youngest on the forum and I favour a F62 rather than a GON or some other such board.
You're the exception here compared to most who are mesmerized when certain coloured leds are flashed before their eyes in quick succession.
They become hypnotized by that experience and will forever more keep buying Vegas-styled keyboards throughout their sad little lives ;D .
The Model-F has none of that stupid visual effects because it delivers on that unique finger to key usage, which only the yanks had achieved.
Post by: Bevo on Thu, 14 January 2016, 07:01:04
Post by: bocahgundul on Thu, 14 January 2016, 07:30:55
The d? lets forget about talking about D here :pWhat about the d :pI'm probably among the youngest on the forum and I favour a F62 rather than a GON or some other such board.I'm the youngest here and I like the f better than those ****ty christmas tree keyboard :mad:
I've beaten you're theory elrick, I guess I'm an outlier. Or maybe your theory is more anecdotal, I'd imagine most young people on this forum have very different opinions on this matter than some random youth on the street. :-*
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Thu, 14 January 2016, 09:14:52
Post by: livingspeedbump on Thu, 14 January 2016, 09:19:23
I'm probably among the youngest on the forum and I favour a F62 rather than a GON or some other such board.
You're the exception here compared to most who are mesmerized when certain coloured leds are flashed before their eyes in quick succession.
They become hypnotized by that experience and will forever more keep buying Vegas-styled keyboards throughout their sad little lives ;D .
The Model-F has none of that stupid visual effects because it delivers on that unique finger to key usage, which only the yanks had achieved.
I think for many that actually find that keyboards are a hobby for them, and not just a passing phase, they naturally grow out of it as they continue to search for new and interesting boards. If you were just a gamer I wouldn't expect you to know the significance or have the desire for a Model F. These are like a fine scotch, but you have to know what ****ty scotch tastes like to appreciate the good stuff.
On topic, everything with the packaging and protos looked amazing! I think the dot matrix printer is going to be quite a nice touch to this whole deal.
Post by: trustinkiss on Thu, 14 January 2016, 09:47:28
I personally can't wait to get ahold of one of these myself. It's been amazing to see how far along this project has actually gotten, and so quickly too. Ellipse is really on his sht getting these out for everybody else and trying to give people an authentic experience when they receive their keyboard, so thank you!
Post by: mashby on Thu, 14 January 2016, 10:03:03
Post by: 3K on Thu, 14 January 2016, 12:01:15
It's kind of sad how people actually think liking keyboards that are dolled up with lighting and effects are actually less of a human being. It's just a different aesthetic. There's no reason to trash on others for liking what they like. Having a fancy RGB keyboard could be the pinnacle of keyboard collecting for some people. It wouldn't be any less ****ty than other people's endgame like this board would be, or a fancy Korean aluminum one. Some people might even like lighting and still appreciate the aesthetic of traditional boards like these. This is a keyboard enthusiast forum, not the model f members only forum.
I personally can't wait to get ahold of one of these myself. It's been amazing to see how far along this project has actually gotten, and so quickly too. Ellipse is really on his sht getting these out for everybody else and trying to give people an authentic experience when they receive their keyboard, so thank you!
Yea, I completely agree on this. One shouldn't criticise others taste. Personally I even started liking rubberdomes (standard at work place) - I like them the same way I like 40 year old godzilla movies. That trashy feel that makes you value your better options (mechs) even more.
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 14 January 2016, 12:06:46
It's kind of sad how people actually think liking keyboards that are dolled up with lighting and effects are actually less of a human being. It's just a different aesthetic. There's no reason to trash on others for liking what they like. Having a fancy RGB keyboard could be the pinnacle of keyboard collecting for some people. It wouldn't be any less ****ty than other people's endgame like this board would be, or a fancy Korean aluminum one. Some people might even like lighting and still appreciate the aesthetic of traditional boards like these. This is a keyboard enthusiast forum, not the model f members only forum.
I personally can't wait to get ahold of one of these myself. It's been amazing to see how far along this project has actually gotten, and so quickly too. Ellipse is really on his sht getting these out for everybody else and trying to give people an authentic experience when they receive their keyboard, so thank you!
Thank you.
I'm probably among the youngest on the forum and I favour a F62 rather than a GON or some other such board.
You're the exception here compared to most who are mesmerized when certain coloured leds are flashed before their eyes in quick succession.
They become hypnotized by that experience and will forever more keep buying Vegas-styled keyboards throughout their sad little lives ;D .
The Model-F has none of that stupid visual effects because it delivers on that unique finger to key usage, which only the yanks had achieved.
I think for many that actually find that keyboards are a hobby for them, and not just a passing phase, they naturally grow out of it as they continue to search for new and interesting boards. If you were just a gamer I wouldn't expect you to know the significance or have the desire for a Model F. These are like a fine scotch, but you have to know what ****ty scotch tastes like to appreciate the good stuff.
I very much disagree with this. I personally am *just a gamer*, as I don't use a keyboard for any sort of income. There are aspects to respect from many sides of this hobby. The RGB individual controllable backlit keyboards is a feat of engineering both at the PCB level and the firmware level that I have much respect for. On the flip side, there is something to say about the build quality of the F standing the test of time.
For my daily driver board, I use an IBM F AT hacked up, modded with remote mounted controller, and set into my keyboard tray, not one wire for my F is visible from sitting position at my desk, on each side sits a Razer product. On the left I have an Orbweaver, modded to reds on WASD and clears everywhere else with blue LEDs swapped out from the green ones from the factory, on the right I have a Naga Epic with the RGB lighting, set to blue to match my Orbweaver. I am also in the process of attempting to install 12 volt CCFL lighting (blue again) under the desk above the tray and be controlled directly from the keyboard using the 6 pin output connector and have it function in place of the clicker, with some additional options.
So where does that put me in your beliefs?
Can we please stop with the profiling of "gamer"? Leave that for the marketing department.
I love this project, and will be buying spare parts for my F resto services, but sadly I won't be partaking in a full keyboard due to saving funding for my mill purchase. If this makes it to a round 2, I will def spring for a 62 key version, the 77 key is to close to the AT for me to justify that side. Nothing against it, just my personal flavor preference.
Again, huge props for making this happen Ellipse.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 14 January 2016, 17:00:44
Are there any more early bird tooling volunteers? I think we are at 10 and need to get to 15. By being an early bird tooling volunteer you not only allow the community to get their keyboards a couple months earlier, but you also allow for a first batch of keyboards to circulate among the community and maybe among reviewers and tech bloggers, which can drum up further interest in these F62/F77 keyboards as well as future Model F projects.
It looks like the early consensus across the forums is for the straight text in the logo - any other thoughts?
Everyone who wants one, please do sign the interest form if you haven't already, even if just so I can let you know when orders open (hopefully next week). Orders ship (generally, with some exceptions) in sequence of the timestamp of when the order is received. I am inspecting the units one by one so it will definitely take some time between when I receive the units and when the last order received ships out.
Melvang-pricing was settled at 50 cents per barrel and 50 cents per flipper+spring in bulk. You can only buy them during the F62/F77 group buy window starting (hopefully) next week.
raymogi I will PM all the early bird tooling donors when the time comes. I am putting together the "quality control" style label inside the keyboard and expect to put all the tooling donor user names there.
Thanks livingspeedbump. The good news is that the dot matrix printer still works after all these years. The green bar paper invoices with each order should definitely add some more vintage feel.
mashby they will be sold on my web site, which will launch when the products open (I have done extensive store testing and paypal integration testing to minimize the chance of bugs).
There will be an early bird round thanks to the tooling volunteers. For the regular round, you will have a few months to place an order, but after the deadline they will likely no longer be sold, assuming no distributors pick up the product and order some inventory. Holding inventory is very risky because even to hold 100 extra units would cost over $35,000. There is a small number of people buying a few extras because it is very likely they won't be able to find NIB units anywhere else in a few years.
Post by: Ir0n on Thu, 14 January 2016, 17:33:50
Post by: livingspeedbump on Thu, 14 January 2016, 17:41:14
Post by: raymogi on Thu, 14 January 2016, 17:56:40
Post by: fanpeople on Thu, 14 January 2016, 18:25:06
It's a shame because this is the single most awesome thing which deserves a sustained shop front to spew BS goodness all onver the world.
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Thu, 14 January 2016, 19:54:30
If I wasn't in Australia I would consider buying up some stock for re-sale but I just can't see much interest for these domestically and to re-ship these things to the US would probably kill much of the interest.
It's a shame because this is the single most awesome thing which deserves a sustained shop front to spew BS goodness all onver the world.
normally true, but this is a very special keyboard that people can't just wait for the next GB on. good chance that people who care enough to buy this keyboard once they find out about it, can also handle the shipping costs.
*also, to save on shipping, only stock the f62's.
Post by: Bevo on Thu, 14 January 2016, 19:59:29
Post by: fanpeople on Thu, 14 January 2016, 20:04:23
If I wasn't in Australia I would consider buying up some stock for re-sale but I just can't see much interest for these domestically and to re-ship these things to the US would probably kill much of the interest.
It's a shame because this is the single most awesome thing which deserves a sustained shop front to spew BS goodness all onver the world.
normally true, but this is a very special keyboard that people can't just wait for the next GB on. good chance that people who care enough to buy this keyboard once they find out about it, can also handle the shipping costs.
*also, to save on shipping, only stock the f62's.
I just did some calculations about 120 AUD with tracking and insurance. Would this be reasonable? But I would also have to tack on cost to cover the initial postage to me and paypal fees. As a guess I would be looking at almost 500 USD per board shipped, just doesn't seem reasonable to me and out of the majority of peoples price range even if they really want it. On the bright side, would benefit any potential Australian's with good postage deal.
You know what I am going to do some research and see if it would be worth it to pick up say 10-20 boards for resale, might be able to get those initial postage costs down.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 14 January 2016, 20:15:19
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 14 January 2016, 20:46:44
fanpeople I am not sure about your calculations, they may be too high. To ship 2 keyboards to Australia in one box, assuming 16 pounds, would cost $100 total with USPS shipping, or about $50 each. So your cost would be $325 for the keyboard plus $50 shipping in that case.
Seems right considering these keyboards are HEAVY compared to most others sold everywhere, including Kmacs.
The size of the box plus weight puts it at the lower end pricetag of $50.00USD (east-coast) because I'm situated on the other side of this Convict Settlement, means having my wallet raped even more when the time comes. 8) .
Post by: pr0ximity on Thu, 14 January 2016, 20:59:25
fanpeople I am not sure about your calculations, they may be too high. To ship 2 keyboards to Australia in one box, assuming 16 pounds, would cost $100 total with USPS shipping, or about $50 each. So your cost would be $325 for the keyboard plus $50 shipping in that case.
Seems right considering these keyboards are HEAVY compared to most others sold everywhere, including Kmacs.
The size of the box plus weight puts it at the lower end pricetag of $50.00USD (east-coast) because I'm situated on the other side of this Convict Settlement, means having my wallet raped even more when the time comes. 8) .
Just be glad Ellipse isn't making 107-key models :P
Post by: fanpeople on Thu, 14 January 2016, 21:23:42
fanpeople I am not sure about your calculations, they may be too high. To ship 2 keyboards to Australia in one box, assuming 16 pounds, would cost $100 total with USPS shipping, or about $50 each. So your cost would be $325 for the keyboard plus $50 shipping in that case.
Yep that was my calculation 325 plus 50 to get it here initially that gives you 375. Then say someone buys it in the US, Shipping from Australia back would be approximately 100 USD give or take depending on how **** the Australian dollar is doing so $475 plus paypal fees almost 15 so $490. That is not even factoring in compo for going to the effort of ordering 20, storing them and then taking the time to post out to individuals. I can understand why you wouldn't want to stock up and sell these from a shop front, it is a lot of money for a specialised market.
In the end I am just so thankful that you are going to these lengths for this, it is truly amazing product.
Well i'm in so maybe if us Aussies band together, we can save on the shipping costs? I know theres quite a few
Hey bevo with regards to this, I would be happy to act as a proxy in Australia for these if Ellipse and a few people buying these were happy with this. I would need to know the dimensions of the packaging and weight to calculate domestic but I did a quick one with the following (from cairns to sydney).
Your Item
Size: 40 x 30 x 20cm
Weight: 5kg
Clear
total price $32.35
From looking at the USPS site, it might not even save money though with the initial postage.
But the idea is there, if there is interest and it can be worked to be cheaper I am happy to do this.
Post by: Den441 on Fri, 15 January 2016, 02:17:27
Post by: JaccoW on Fri, 15 January 2016, 04:55:29
All this talk of the "tricked out" LED GON style VS the NO LED "traditional" style has got me thinking. Once I get my F62, I think I'm also going to get a thin, flat piece of frosted acrylic and set the F62 on top of that. Then I will put an RGB LED strip under the acrylic. Who says you can't have it both ways?! I like to have my cake and eat it too! FUWAHAHAHAJust wait until the first Phospor Glow (http://phosphorglow.net/tag/ssk/) F62 or F77 shows up. :cool:
Wasn't there someone who made a backlit Model M?
Post by: meow a cat on Fri, 15 January 2016, 05:57:13
All this talk of the "tricked out" LED GON style VS the NO LED "traditional" style has got me thinking. Once I get my F62, I think I'm also going to get a thin, flat piece of frosted acrylic and set the F62 on top of that. Then I will put an RGB LED strip under the acrylic. Who says you can't have it both ways?! I like to have my cake and eat it too! FUWAHAHAHAJust wait until the first Phospor Glow (http://phosphorglow.net/tag/ssk/) F62 or F77 shows up. :cool:
Wasn't there someone who made a backlit Model M?
Oh hey, my SSK. :eek:
I did ask Phosphorglow about doing a little work on a Model F, but he said he doesn't work on them. You could always try though, I'd love to see his work on one of these F62s or F77s!
Post by: harlw on Fri, 15 January 2016, 09:30:56
All this talk of the "tricked out" LED GON style VS the NO LED "traditional" style has got me thinking. Once I get my F62, I think I'm also going to get a thin, flat piece of frosted acrylic and set the F62 on top of that. Then I will put an RGB LED strip under the acrylic. Who says you can't have it both ways?! I like to have my cake and eat it too! FUWAHAHAHA
I've got a very large bottle of glitter here waiting for mine to arrive...I've also been saving a pink can of plastidip for a special project and I think this may just be the one.
Post by: Air tree on Fri, 15 January 2016, 14:29:32
CPTBadAss has the most fabulous f62. :))All this talk of the "tricked out" LED GON style VS the NO LED "traditional" style has got me thinking. Once I get my F62, I think I'm also going to get a thin, flat piece of frosted acrylic and set the F62 on top of that. Then I will put an RGB LED strip under the acrylic. Who says you can't have it both ways?! I like to have my cake and eat it too! FUWAHAHAHA
I've got a very large bottle of glitter here waiting for mine to arrive...I've also been saving a pink can of plastidip for a special project and I think this may just be the one.
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2944/15159170237_777a977b40.jpg)
Post by: romevi on Fri, 15 January 2016, 15:45:12
CPTBadAss has the most fabulous f62. :))All this talk of the "tricked out" LED GON style VS the NO LED "traditional" style has got me thinking. Once I get my F62, I think I'm also going to get a thin, flat piece of frosted acrylic and set the F62 on top of that. Then I will put an RGB LED strip under the acrylic. Who says you can't have it both ways?! I like to have my cake and eat it too! FUWAHAHAHA
I've got a very large bottle of glitter here waiting for mine to arrive...I've also been saving a pink can of plastidip for a special project and I think this may just be the one.Show Image(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2944/15159170237_777a977b40.jpg)
Fabulous indeed.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: tribade on Fri, 15 January 2016, 16:04:29
CPTBadAss has the most fabulous f62. :))All this talk of the "tricked out" LED GON style VS the NO LED "traditional" style has got me thinking. Once I get my F62, I think I'm also going to get a thin, flat piece of frosted acrylic and set the F62 on top of that. Then I will put an RGB LED strip under the acrylic. Who says you can't have it both ways?! I like to have my cake and eat it too! FUWAHAHAHA
I've got a very large bottle of glitter here waiting for mine to arrive...I've also been saving a pink can of plastidip for a special project and I think this may just be the one.Show Image(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2944/15159170237_777a977b40.jpg)
Fabulous indeed.
(Attachment Link)
Best and most relevant gif I've seen on this forum. And yes that includes all the Taylor Swift gifs
Post by: harlw on Fri, 15 January 2016, 17:31:00
LolCPTBadAss has the most fabulous f62. :))All this talk of the "tricked out" LED GON style VS the NO LED "traditional" style has got me thinking. Once I get my F62, I think I'm also going to get a thin, flat piece of frosted acrylic and set the F62 on top of that. Then I will put an RGB LED strip under the acrylic. Who says you can't have it both ways?! I like to have my cake and eat it too! FUWAHAHAHA
I've got a very large bottle of glitter here waiting for mine to arrive...I've also been saving a pink can of plastidip for a special project and I think this may just be the one.Show Image(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2944/15159170237_777a977b40.jpg)
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 15 January 2016, 19:57:16
CPTBadAss has the most fabulous f62. :))Show Image(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2944/15159170237_777a977b40.jpg)
Not bad Purple casing but combining baby blue keys isn't nice (personal opinion here).
Far better to get all the white keys and apply some dye to achieve a purple shade. You just need an all purple model here to bring out it's perfection.
Post by: livingspeedbump on Fri, 15 January 2016, 19:58:42
CPTBadAss has the most fabulous f62. :))All this talk of the "tricked out" LED GON style VS the NO LED "traditional" style has got me thinking. Once I get my F62, I think I'm also going to get a thin, flat piece of frosted acrylic and set the F62 on top of that. Then I will put an RGB LED strip under the acrylic. Who says you can't have it both ways?! I like to have my cake and eat it too! FUWAHAHAHA
I've got a very large bottle of glitter here waiting for mine to arrive...I've also been saving a pink can of plastidip for a special project and I think this may just be the one.Show Image(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2944/15159170237_777a977b40.jpg)
I do love that keyboard so, so much
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 16 January 2016, 15:11:53
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Sat, 16 January 2016, 15:27:03
Thanks all for the logo feedback. It looks like the preference is for the blue version of the non-angled text logo, with "ultimate" removed from the subheading. I hope to add this logo to the boxes but it may be too costly. If anyone prefers no logo on the box I may be able to arrange that as well.
(Attachment Link)
I'm diggin it! If it does end up costing too much, I don't mind if all it said was just the model number if that lessens the cost by a lot. Maybe you could even throw your name in smaller text above it to differentiate it from other possible iterations (if someone does end up manufacturing more).
Sweet job on all this! :D
Post by: pr0ximity on Sat, 16 January 2016, 16:23:22
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 16 January 2016, 16:43:09
Thanks all for the logo feedback. It looks like the preference is for the blue version of the non-angled text logo, with "ultimate" removed from the subheading. I hope to add this logo to the boxes but it may be too costly. If anyone prefers no logo on the box I may be able to arrange that as well.
Couldn't care less about the shipping boxes because they shall not be seen once the keyboards are taken out of them.
Don't know why everyone here is gettiing a hard-on for the shipping boxes, best keep your loins moistened for the inevitable Model-F keyboard it self ;) .
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Sat, 16 January 2016, 16:43:21
Is http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/ your website Ellipse?
That super sleuth action right there
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sat, 16 January 2016, 16:43:42
Post by: KetchyKech on Sat, 16 January 2016, 16:45:01
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 16 January 2016, 16:52:22
The site is not finished and ordering is disabled for now - please don't try to order something as I won't be getting the funds you send! The keyboard prototypes are expected to arrive on Monday when I hope to do my inspection, testing, and videos. Product photos will be re-taken at some point for a more professional look.
If anyone wants to look through the site and test for typos/bugs that would be appreciated. Especially with product pricing.
Expedited shipping question: Sea mail/container shipping from China is very slow and takes 2-4 weeks. Would anyone be interested in expedited shipping? It would then take one week for the keyboard to arrive to me. So in this case you would pay for DHL Express shipping to me, then I would do my QC and testing and then ship it to you by USPS Priority Mail. This should add about $50 to $75 in extra shipping costs depending on interest. You would only need to decide and let me know a week or two before everything ships around late March.
Post by: ctm on Sat, 16 January 2016, 22:25:15
Thanks all for the logo feedback. It looks like the preference is for the blue version of the non-angled text logo, with "ultimate" removed from the subheading. I hope to add this logo to the boxes but it may be too costly. If anyone prefers no logo on the box I may be able to arrange that as well.I absolutely love this graphics! Putting "ultimate" on the box is somewhat redundant because it's obviously the ultimate :cool:
(Attachment Link)
Post by: Pemdas on Sat, 16 January 2016, 22:53:44
The keyboard prototypes are expected to arrive on Monday when I hope to do my inspection, testing, and videos.
This is so close to happening! Can't wait to feel the typing experience on these babies :thumb:
Btw I skimmed the thread and didn't find an answer but did we end up with enough volunteers for the early bird wave?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 16 January 2016, 23:26:54
Pemdas I'm confident we will find the 15 early bird tooling volunteers. I think we're at 9 or 10 now.
Can anyone else volunteer for $100 towards the early bird tooling?
In exchange for allowing everyone to receive their keyboards months earlier, you will be given a lower serial number, brought towards the front of the line in terms of testing and shipping your keyboard, and your user name will be added to the inside label as an early bird tooling volunteer. The only other way to be pushed to the front is to pay extra for a lower serial number only (not on the label).
It will also help popularize the Model F keyboard among more people, as I hope to facilitate getting different reviewers to borrow some early bird keyboards and test/review them while the final half of the group buy is still open. If anyone has any tips or inside connections at different tech media outlets/web sites/tech bloggers please let me know. I know that some people are fine waiting 7-8 months from now for the final group buy units to ship, if they can see what people are saying about them.
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 17 January 2016, 00:13:56
Post by: aznairjordan on Sun, 17 January 2016, 01:11:03
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 17 January 2016, 01:17:26
Can anyone else volunteer for $100 towards the early bird tooling?
In exchange for allowing everyone to receive their keyboards months earlier, you will be given a lower serial number, brought towards the front of the line in terms of testing and shipping your keyboard, and your user name will be added to the inside label as an early bird tooling volunteer. The only other way to be pushed to the front is to pay extra for a lower serial number only (not on the label).
Couldn't care less about the early numbering scheme because I'm no hardcore Model-F collector here, all I want is a PERFECTLY made keyboard made by hands and fully tuned to my specifications.
For me handing over an extra $100USD ($145.78AUD) is worth it, since this new keyboard shall be residing as my personal Number One Keyboard under my roof :thumb: .
Post by: Ir0n on Sun, 17 January 2016, 09:39:41
I was thinking this red
(http://i.imgur.com/NTMIyNz.png)
Or maybe some other shade of red?
I know most of you are most likely going original colors or black but I'm just checking
I like me some red lol
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 17 January 2016, 10:03:48
The controllers will be on a separate small PCB attached to the main PCB by ribbon cable, like the original Kishsavers and other 4704s. This is an update to my original idea to have everything on one PCB.
Post by: KetchyKech on Sun, 17 January 2016, 11:23:16
Anyone else interested in getting few done in red with me?
I was thinking this redShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/NTMIyNz.png)
Or maybe some other shade of red?
I know most of you are most likely going original colors or black but I'm just checking
I like me some red lol
I'd be willing to join you in that if no one is doing a stark white. I hope we get a list of colors people have proposed so we can choose among that list and lower costs accordingly
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 17 January 2016, 12:36:31
Please note that all of these colors require custom tooling and everyone wanting the color must help pay for the tooling. This is different from the custom layout where anyone can get the layout once at least one person pays for the tooling.
Everyone interested in each type of color needs to agree on a specific Pantone number. The Pantone color on the screen does not match the actual paint color - to see something close to the actual color you'd need to go to a hardware store and look at their pantone book. Also the factory will not guarantee a match with the Pantone color you choose, just a very close approximation of the color, so you'd need to accept that going into the process. Also the factory doesn't guarantee an exact match with my Industrial Grey or off-white original Model F colors, so you'll need to know that there are no guarantees about the accuracy of any of the regular colors. RAL 7030 is not being used.
Very few people want a custom color right now - maybe 10-20 or so for all requests, out of the 249 pre-orders so far.
Red
Silver
Blue
Purple
Dark Grey
White
Pink
Green
A note that unpainted/clear coat/anodized/brushed/electrophoresis coating/sandblasting will not be offered.
Post by: romevi on Sun, 17 January 2016, 12:56:28
OK here are the requested custom colors - please add to the list if I forgot any.I may be interested in dark gray depending on what the final shade is.
Please note that all of these colors require custom tooling and everyone wanting the color must help pay for the tooling. This is different from the custom layout where anyone can get the layout once at least one person pays for the tooling.
Everyone interested in each type of color needs to agree on a specific Pantone number. The Pantone color on the screen does not match the actual paint color - to see something close to the actual color you'd need to go to a hardware store and look at their pantone book. Also the factory will not guarantee a match with the Pantone color you choose, just a very close approximation of the color, so you'd need to accept that going into the process. Also the factory doesn't guarantee an exact match with my Industrial Grey or off-white original Model F colors, so you'll need to know that there are no guarantees about the accuracy of any of the regular colors. RAL 7030 is not being used.
Very few people want a custom color right now - maybe 10-20 or so for all requests, out of the 249 pre-orders so far.
Red
Silver
Blue
Purple
Dark Grey
White
Pink
Green
A note that unpainted/clear coat/anodized/brushed/electrophoresis coating/sandblasting will not be offered.
Post by: KetchyKech on Sun, 17 January 2016, 13:24:29
OK here are the requested custom colors - please add to the list if I forgot any.Thanks Ellipse, if those colors are the leaders in the custom selections that people have shown interest in, then I'd be down for a white or red (maybe even blue). Perhaps when the time comes we can get a list that specifies which are the most popular selections and how much each color would cost accordingly. From there-- those interested can make an informed decision when choosing which they wanna go with.
Please note that all of these colors require custom tooling and everyone wanting the color must help pay for the tooling. This is different from the custom layout where anyone can get the layout once at least one person pays for the tooling.
Everyone interested in each type of color needs to agree on a specific Pantone number. The Pantone color on the screen does not match the actual paint color - to see something close to the actual color you'd need to go to a hardware store and look at their pantone book. Also the factory will not guarantee a match with the Pantone color you choose, just a very close approximation of the color, so you'd need to accept that going into the process. Also the factory doesn't guarantee an exact match with my Industrial Grey or off-white original Model F colors, so you'll need to know that there are no guarantees about the accuracy of any of the regular colors. RAL 7030 is not being used.
Very few people want a custom color right now - maybe 10-20 or so for all requests, out of the 249 pre-orders so far.
Red
Silver
Blue
Purple
Dark Grey
White
Pink
Green
A note that unpainted/clear coat/anodized/brushed/electrophoresis coating/sandblasting will not be offered.
Post by: Ir0n on Sun, 17 January 2016, 16:48:18
Post by: joc on Sun, 17 January 2016, 16:59:55
(http://i.imgur.com/SWt1PY7.jpg)
Source: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62471.msg1721540#msg1721540
Backspace, Enter, and Right Shift: 2u (all optionally splittable)
Bottom row: 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 2u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1u, 1u, 1u
Is anyone else interested in this 60% layout?
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 17 January 2016, 17:10:20
Ellipse: If you're still considering alternative layouts, I'm interested in an ortholinear layout like this:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/SWt1PY7.jpg)
Source: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62471.msg1721540#msg1721540
Backspace, Enter, and Right Shift: 2u (all optionally splittable)
Bottom row: 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 2u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1u, 1u, 1u
Is anyone else interested in this 60% layout?
Not enough to pay for the extra tooling, pcb design, and other costs. Plus Unicomp (only place that makes caps fr BS) has **** customer support for custom stuff like this.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 17 January 2016, 18:42:55
[attachimg=1]
Post by: user 18 on Sun, 17 January 2016, 19:10:30
Is this the default layout (non-HHKB version) you think most people would like for their F62/F77? Of course it would all be regular keys, not the pictured keys and stepped Alt keys. Would most Kishsaver users not getting HHKB split right shift prefer the split backspace with a 1U backspace and a 1U "~ `" key? Should the upper left key be ~` or Esc as the default? Of course you can switch it to other layouts if you want once you have it.
(Attachment Link)
I vote for `~ as the default, but fully expect to be outvoted. I also would not set up the right side cluster anywhere near like that, but I don't have an issue with any defaults so long as I can fully configure mine.
Post by: ccc24 on Sun, 17 January 2016, 19:22:43
Yes here is a post from DT showing a HHKB option:
(Attachment Link)
The order form will be opened after I approve of the prototypes. The prototypes should arrive by the end of next week hopefully.
Will this be the default layout for the HHKB with split right shift and split backspace?
Post by: ctm on Sun, 17 January 2016, 19:35:37
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 17 January 2016, 19:42:55
Is this the default layout (non-HHKB version) you think most people would like for their F62/F77? Of course it would all be regular keys, not the pictured keys and stepped Alt keys. Would most Kishsaver users not getting HHKB split right shift prefer the split backspace with a 1U backspace and a 1U "~ `" key? Should the upper left key be ~` or Esc as the default? Of course you can switch it to other layouts if you want once you have it.
(Attachment Link)
I vote for `~ as the default, but fully expect to be outvoted. I also would not set up the right side cluster anywhere near like that, but I don't have an issue with any defaults so long as I can fully configure mine.
For the F77 that should be the DEFAULT, anyone wanting something else can organize it for themselves.
Remember that when you start offering 1000's of layouts do expect an abysmally high failure rate and your future customers complaining how it didn't work for them. If you stick to one or two layouts for the F77, then things are simple and you could send out all the keyboards within a decent time frame. It's up to the end user to configure their own layouts by themselves with the help of GH community. After all this is why this place is known as Keyboard Central :thumb: .
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:01:46
Post by: Ir0n on Sun, 17 January 2016, 21:12:32
Post by: livingspeedbump on Mon, 18 January 2016, 14:31:03
Is this the default layout (non-HHKB version) you think most people would like for their F62/F77? Of course it would all be regular keys, not the pictured keys and stepped Alt keys. Would most Kishsaver users not getting HHKB split right shift prefer the split backspace with a 1U backspace and a 1U "~ `" key? Should the upper left key be ~` or Esc as the default? Of course you can switch it to other layouts if you want once you have it.
(Attachment Link)
I vote for `~ as the default, but fully expect to be outvoted. I also would not set up the right side cluster anywhere near like that, but I don't have an issue with any defaults so long as I can fully configure mine.
For the F77 that should be the DEFAULT, anyone wanting something else can organize it for themselves.
Remember that when you start offering 1000's of layouts do expect an abysmally high failure rate and your future customers complaining how it didn't work for them. If you stick to one or two layouts for the F77, then things are simple and you could send out all the keyboards within a decent time frame. It's up to the end user to configure their own layouts by themselves with the help of GH community. After all this is why this place is known as Keyboard Central :thumb: .
Yeah i tend to mostly agree with this approach. Offering too many options, with any buy or IC is generally a bad idea. You can't make everyone happy
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 18 January 2016, 19:33:14
Post by: ryahirv on Mon, 18 January 2016, 19:38:39
Post by: Pemdas on Mon, 18 January 2016, 20:26:34
The prototypes arrived! Today I have been doing some thorough testing. So far they are in good shape for opening up the group buy soon!
This is great news! So exciting :p
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Mon, 18 January 2016, 21:24:12
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Mon, 18 January 2016, 21:37:17
It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything? Tempting. I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help? Are you just reserving a serial number?
I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? :cool: )? I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.
Post by: Snowdog993 on Mon, 18 January 2016, 21:39:34
I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.
It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything? Tempting. I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help? Are you just reserving a serial number?
I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? :cool: )? I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.
I thought that was the XTAnt project? Didn't they already make boards for that?
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Mon, 18 January 2016, 21:40:17
I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.
It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything? Tempting. I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help? Are you just reserving a serial number?
I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? :cool: )? I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.
I thought that was the XTAnt project? Didn't they already make boards for that?
AFAIK, that was simply to "un-butcher" the XT. :)) But maybe I missed something!
Post by: Snowdog993 on Mon, 18 January 2016, 21:54:23
I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.
It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything? Tempting. I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help? Are you just reserving a serial number?
I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? :cool: )? I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.
I thought that was the XTAnt project? Didn't they already make boards for that?
AFAIK, that was simply to "un-butcher" the XT. :)) But maybe I missed something!
Maybe I did too.
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/bringing-the-ibm-pc-xt-into-the-21st-century-t3047-210.html
Edit: Corrected author.
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 18 January 2016, 22:00:59
I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.
It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything? Tempting. I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help? Are you just reserving a serial number?
I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? :cool: )? I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.
I thought that was the XTAnt project? Didn't they already make boards for that?
AFAIK, that was simply to "un-butcher" the XT. :)) But maybe I missed something!
Maybe I did too.
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/bringing-the-ibm-pc-xt-into-the-21st-century-t3047-210.html
The xtant was just a pcb and barrel plate that recycled the rest of the XT plus needing one extra barrel. After that an xwhatsit controller was needed. The odd part was all the arrow and 6key nav cluster keys are 1.25 unit keys.
Post by: Snowdog993 on Mon, 18 January 2016, 22:04:34
I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.
It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything? Tempting. I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help? Are you just reserving a serial number?
I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? :cool: )? I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.
I thought that was the XTAnt project? Didn't they already make boards for that?
AFAIK, that was simply to "un-butcher" the XT. :)) But maybe I missed something!
Maybe I did too.
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/bringing-the-ibm-pc-xt-into-the-21st-century-t3047-210.html
The xtant was just a pcb and barrel plate that recycled the rest of the XT plus needing one extra barrel. After that an xwhatsit controller was needed. The odd part was all the arrow and 6key nav cluster keys are 1.25 unit keys.
Yes, but you have to admit, it's a lot better than the original layout.
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 18 January 2016, 22:06:58
I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.
It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything? Tempting. I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help? Are you just reserving a serial number?
I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? :cool: )? I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.
I thought that was the XTAnt project? Didn't they already make boards for that?
AFAIK, that was simply to "un-butcher" the XT. :)) But maybe I missed something!
Maybe I did too.
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/bringing-the-ibm-pc-xt-into-the-21st-century-t3047-210.html
The xtant was just a pcb and barrel plate that recycled the rest of the XT plus needing one extra barrel. After that an xwhatsit controller was needed. The odd part was all the arrow and 6key nav cluster keys are 1.25 unit keys.
Yes, but you have to admit, it's a lot better than the original layout.
It is on paper, I haven't gotten mine built yet. But the XT wasn't that hard to get used to. The hardest part for me was the lack of homing on F and J.
Post by: atlas3686 on Tue, 19 January 2016, 00:53:55
I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.
It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything? Tempting. I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help? Are you just reserving a serial number?
I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? :cool: )? I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.
Hey Hoff, I believe it's $325 excl. shipping and keys (so your choice of keys will add a little or you can use your own).
Post by: romevi on Tue, 19 January 2016, 11:35:40
I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.
It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything? Tempting. I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help? Are you just reserving a serial number?
I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? :cool: )? I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.
Hey Hoff, I believe it's $325 excl. shipping and keys (so your choice of keys will add a little or you can use your own).
Yes, $325 sans caps, $350 with Unicomp caps.
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 19 January 2016, 17:04:00
Yes, $325 sans caps, $350 with Unicomp caps.
Still cheaper than a scratch built Kmac ;) .
Post by: againer on Tue, 19 January 2016, 18:08:54
Post by: digi on Tue, 19 January 2016, 18:15:26
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 19 January 2016, 18:16:55
As an update I am taking this week to fully evaluate the prototype parts that arrived yesterday. I expect to open up orders once I'm finished and have taken a video and more professional photos.
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 19 January 2016, 18:19:48
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 19 January 2016, 18:44:42
On other sites they mentioned some things about the other end of the spring (the end touching the flipper) needing to be in a certain place, but I have found that to be less a priority than the side touching the key stem. Usually this did not make a difference as IBM was very good to make both of most of their spring ends terminate at exactly the same position on opposite sides. Looking at some XT flippers with their springs, I can't even see one error on IBM's part.
Melvang - yes you can have an HHKB-type layout with the standard layout if you are willing to have the 1U key to the left of the caps lock style key in the right shift area. The split right shift board alters both right shift barrel positions to allow the caps lock key to the left and the 1U Function key to the right in the right shift area.
Post by: fanpeople on Tue, 19 January 2016, 18:45:36
Cost would be the same for the smaller case, if there's enough interest. With 10-20 keyboards' worth of interest in the smaller case right now, it doesn't look promising. The parts will be interchangeable if you wanted to convert yours to a smaller case down the line. You would only need to buy a different bottom inner assembly (plus the case itself).
As an update I am taking this week to fully evaluate the prototype parts that arrived yesterday. I expect to open up orders once I'm finished and have taken a video and more professional photos.
are there any mockups of the smaller case? I think I am going with the f77 but I would be interested in a f62 with a smaller case.
How much interest would you need roughly for it to be worth it?
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 19 January 2016, 19:34:03
On other sites they mentioned some things about the other end of the spring (the end touching the flipper) needing to be in a certain place, but I have found that to be less a priority than the side touching the key stem. Usually this did not make a difference as IBM was very good to make both of most of their spring ends terminate at exactly the same position on opposite sides. Looking at some XT flippers with their springs, I can't even see one error on IBM's part.
So if your design has matched the IBM standard then this should be successful?
Very interested in knowing if this resurrection of the Model-F is a triumph or another failure because trying to emulate their early designs isn't easy, maybe that is why all manufacturers didn't even try to build these switches once IBM dropped them, it's just way too complicated.
After all we're all interested in buying some Model-F keyboards that feel and sound like an authentic model made all those years ago.
Post by: Bevo on Tue, 19 January 2016, 20:22:38
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 19 January 2016, 20:25:45
I'd also be one of the one interested in the more traditional TKL layout.
The 77 is the closest you will get to a traditional TKL layout aside from the Xtant.
Post by: ccc24 on Tue, 19 January 2016, 20:49:33
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Tue, 19 January 2016, 20:51:24
Can we get a carbon fiber infused case with little pink pony's hopping around with clacks as legs?
I was with you until you said "clacks as legs". I'm 80% down to put ponies on my f62 if I could get it done Lisa Frank status.
[attach=1]
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 19 January 2016, 21:11:48
fanpeople if you want a keyboard delivered in April/May I suggest going with the regular design. The other design is not likely to go into production soon.
Bevo, as I mentioned earlier I decided for the F62/F77 reproduction designs as the IBM SSK is readily available on eBay and often sells for well less than the production cost of a new run. The F62/F77 are far less available - no 60% Model M or Model F is readily available anywhere. Also the F77 layout is very close to an SSK layout, just without separate function keys (the function keys are built into the top row of keys on an F77).
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: Techno Trousers on Tue, 19 January 2016, 21:25:49
Very interested in knowing if this resurrection of the Model-F is a triumph or another failure because trying to emulate their early designs isn't easy, maybe that is why all manufacturers didn't even try to build these switches once IBM dropped them, it's just way too complicated.
I think it's actually a combination of multiple factors: it's very expensive to build such durable keyboards (even IBM sought to cut costs with the Model M after just a few years); 95% of computer users are fine with crappy $10 keyboards they replace in two years; and manufacturers in our modern disposable age just don't want to sell something that will last for generations, taking away their own customer demand.
As an analogy, I recently bought a Gillette safety razor manufactured in the 1960s. It cost me about $50, and now for around $5-10 a year for replacement double sided blades, I'll continue getting the smoothest shaves of my life, indefinitely. The Model F is the Gillette Fat Boy of keyboards. It just takes a very discerning consumer to appreciate it.
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 19 January 2016, 21:44:37
The Model F is the Gillette Fat Boy of keyboards. It just takes a very discerning consumer to appreciate it.
Too right Techno, makes me want to take a ride on my Harley every time someone mentions "FAT BOY" ;D .
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 19 January 2016, 21:51:38
I'd also be one of the one interested in the more traditional TKL layout.
The 77 is the closest you will get to a traditional TKL layout aside from the Xtant.
Yeah, the current design proposal is almost exactly a TKL and it's still usable compared to a "yuck" HHKB layout.
Remember that Ellipse is trying to revive the original look of the Model-F and at that time there was NO Tenkeyless layouts available anywhere, it was just too early for that layout to appear just yet.
Happy he has tried to keep the original look of this type of keyboard rather than going out to make it look like another Kmac or Korean designed keyboard. It has to look like an early AMERICAN designed keyboard to help remember that these guys had done a good thing when it came to making a brilliant quality input device, for the humble PC.
Post by: Latin00032 on Tue, 19 January 2016, 22:35:12
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Tue, 19 January 2016, 22:56:16
Melvang - yes you can have an HHKB-type layout with the standard layout if you are willing to have the 1U key to the left of the caps lock style key in the right shift area. The split right shift board alters both right shift barrel positions to allow the caps lock key to the left and the 1U Function key to the right in the right shift area.
I didn't realize there would be alternate layout options available. Will the HHKB-type layout be available on the 77-key, or just the 62-key?
Post by: Olumin on Tue, 19 January 2016, 23:08:31
What will the function-layer look like? Will there be custom keycaps available with the function-layer printed on them.
All this is quite in-transparent, please help me out.
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 19 January 2016, 23:11:30
Melvang - yes you can have an HHKB-type layout with the standard layout if you are willing to have the 1U key to the left of the caps lock style key in the right shift area. The split right shift board alters both right shift barrel positions to allow the caps lock key to the left and the 1U Function key to the right in the right shift area.
I didn't realize there would be alternate layout options available. Will the HHKB-type layout be available on the 77-key, or just the 62-key?
Both as far as I know. The only difference between the HHKB and normal is the placement of the barrels on the left shift. With normal, you can use the HHKB style split left shift but the keys will be swapped, HHKB fixes that, and the split backspace, but thats a 2 unit, so that is the same for both HHKB and normal. The only difference there is in the caps which can be swapped on a whim provided you can swap the barrel stabilizer insert.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 19 January 2016, 23:19:31
I just assembled the F62 prototype complete inner assembly and can confirm that this Model F redesign project is a success! It truly deserves the Model F moniker. We will be going forward with the group buy before month end. I will definitely continue testing and making the final pre-production adjustments as the prototypes are not 100% (nor were they expected to be perfect!). I have made and will keep making design adjustments even as small as 0.1 mm to make them good.
Keys buckle correctly and are recognized on the computer - the new capacitive flippers do their job just as well as the originals so far. There are no ghost signals as of yet. The keyboard sounds eerily similar to my little used, original refurbished 77 key 4704 with Ensolite foam (the project uses Neoprene/EDPM type foam from McMaster-Carr) - you can tell the difference between the two but it was a lot closer than expected. Of course it does sound different from my worn out F's with degraded foam (the F77 original, and just about each Model F in my collection, sounds different from just about every other Model F!). The keys are crisp and have a solid amount of musicality to them like the original 77 key 4704 - far from the point where it would annoy most people in my view (some F's have more musicality, some have less).
One interesting note is that the improved manufacturing processes and tolerances have allowed for a more consistent sound to each key - granted the keys do sound different from each other and still have a mildly musical quality to them, though they are less random in their sound. These better tolerances also make for more consistent barrels. In test measurements I have noticed very low sample to sample variation.
Also the final barrel molds were completed - these samples will be with the final barrel design. Each barrel will have a number on its underside since I ordered a multi-cavity mold. IBM gave a code to each barrel so they could know when a mold cavity needed to be adjusted if it was producing out-of-spec injection-molded parts.
I will continue making the hand adjustments to the prototypes and making those adjustments in the CAD files. Before opening orders I want the prototypes to be as close to the final production units as possible and I want to take photos and make a video beforehand.
Olumin - the final version will look like the originals but is not 100% the same on the inside - for example a new USB controller instead of IBM's terminal controller. $325 is the price for the keyboard. I will also do a group buy for brand new Unicomp keys (check their web site for pricing and options available). Yes caps can be swapped with Model M or Model F caps, or Unicomp caps. Yes you have to pay taxes, fees, shipping if applicable to your country (these ship from New York). You can adjust the layout afterwards but it will be a regular Model M style layout in a 60% form factor as the default. The keyboard works once you plug in the USB cable, or you can configure it. You can set any function layer you want (any suggestions on default function layers to include with the F62/F77?). Yes you can order F1, F2 etc. front printed keycaps as long as Unicomp does not run out of stock.
Post by: ccc24 on Tue, 19 January 2016, 23:32:59
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 19 January 2016, 23:40:07
Thanks for all your hard work and dedication to make this a reality. How easy is it to program the layout? Never used xwhatsit's controller before.
My wife could use xwhatsit's software. It has a very nice GUI.
Ellipse, what did you end up using for the voltage threshold if you don't mind me asking?
Post by: ccc24 on Tue, 19 January 2016, 23:48:08
Thanks for all your hard work and dedication to make this a reality. How easy is it to program the layout? Never used xwhatsit's controller before.
My wife could use xwhatsit's software. It has a very nice GUI.
Ellipse, what did you end up using for the voltage threshold if you don't mind me asking?
lol is there any need to flash any files or anything? Or do you just plug it in and let the GUI handle everything?
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 19 January 2016, 23:50:11
Thanks for all your hard work and dedication to make this a reality. How easy is it to program the layout? Never used xwhatsit's controller before.
My wife could use xwhatsit's software. It has a very nice GUI.
Ellipse, what did you end up using for the voltage threshold if you don't mind me asking?
lol is there any need to flash any files or anything? Or do you just plug it in and let the GUI handle everything?
Just download the software, it autodetects the keyboad, change what you need to, hit the save button. done.
Post by: ccc24 on Tue, 19 January 2016, 23:52:15
Thanks for all your hard work and dedication to make this a reality. How easy is it to program the layout? Never used xwhatsit's controller before.
My wife could use xwhatsit's software. It has a very nice GUI.
Ellipse, what did you end up using for the voltage threshold if you don't mind me asking?
lol is there any need to flash any files or anything? Or do you just plug it in and let the GUI handle everything?
Just download the software, it autodetects the keyboad, change what you need to, hit the save button. done.
sounds good thanks. Do you have a link where I can download it?
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 19 January 2016, 23:57:09
I was right, http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb/0.9.0/Thanks for all your hard work and dedication to make this a reality. How easy is it to program the layout? Never used xwhatsit's controller before.
My wife could use xwhatsit's software. It has a very nice GUI.
Ellipse, what did you end up using for the voltage threshold if you don't mind me asking?
lol is there any need to flash any files or anything? Or do you just plug it in and let the GUI handle everything?
Just download the software, it autodetects the keyboad, change what you need to, hit the save button. done.
sounds good thanks. Do you have a link where I can download it?
You will want the .zip.
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 20 January 2016, 01:58:27
Success! Success! Success!
I just assembled the F62 prototype complete inner assembly and can confirm that this Model F redesign project is a success! It truly deserves the Model F moniker. We will be going forward with the group buy before month end. I will definitely continue testing and making the final pre-production adjustments as the prototypes are not 100% (nor were they expected to be perfect!). I have made and will keep making design adjustments even as small as 0.1 mm to make them good.
Keys buckle correctly and are recognized on the computer - the new capacitive flippers do their job just as well as the originals so far. There are no ghost signals as of yet. The keyboard sounds eerily similar to my little used, original refurbished 77 key 4704 with Ensolite foam (the project uses Neoprene/EDPM type foam from McMaster-Carr) - you can tell the difference between the two but it was a lot closer than expected. Of course it does sound different from my worn out F's with degraded foam (the F77 original, and just about each Model F in my collection, sounds different from just about every other Model F!). The keys are crisp and have a solid amount of musicality to them like the original 77 key 4704 - far from the point where it would annoy most people in my view (some F's have more musicality, some have less).
One interesting note is that the improved manufacturing processes and tolerances have allowed for a more consistent sound to each key - granted the keys do sound different from each other and still have a mildly musical quality to them, though they are less random in their sound. These better tolerances also make for more consistent barrels. In test measurements I have noticed very low sample to sample variation.
Also the final barrel molds were completed - these samples will be with the final barrel design. Each barrel will have a number on its underside since I ordered a multi-cavity mold. IBM gave a code to each barrel so they could know when a mold cavity needed to be adjusted if it was producing out-of-spec injection-molded parts.
I will continue making the hand adjustments to the prototypes and making those adjustments in the CAD files. Before opening orders I want the prototypes to be as close to the final production units as possible and I want to take photos and make a video beforehand.
Olumin - the final version will look like the originals but is not 100% the same on the inside - for example a new USB controller instead of IBM's terminal controller. $325 is the price for the keyboard. I will also do a group buy for brand new Unicomp keys (check their web site for pricing and options available). Yes caps can be swapped with Model M or Model F caps, or Unicomp caps. Yes you have to pay taxes, fees, shipping if applicable to your country (these ship from New York). You can adjust the layout afterwards but it will be a regular Model M style layout in a 60% form factor as the default. The keyboard works once you plug in the USB cable, or you can configure it. You can set any function layer you want (any suggestions on default function layers to include with the F62/F77?). Yes you can order F1, F2 etc. front printed keycaps as long as Unicomp does not run out of stock.
This is amazing news, I was almost certain there would be some more delays while things got sorted out so this is really a surprise. Cannot wait to see some photos!
Post by: ctm on Wed, 20 January 2016, 08:00:37
Post by: meow a cat on Wed, 20 January 2016, 08:13:38
Maybe it's time to liquidate my extra boards for a Kish...
Post by: Jedi on Wed, 20 January 2016, 09:25:05
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 20 January 2016, 10:47:51
I may have to try to raise some funds for this.. the Canadian dollar hurts really bad right now though.:'( That graph tells the whole story
(https://i.imgur.com/9HAo2GZ.png)
Post by: Ludovician on Wed, 20 January 2016, 11:46:39
I may have to try to raise some funds for this.. the Canadian dollar hurts really bad right now though.
Maybe it's time to liquidate my extra boards for a Kish...
Australian here, same issue. I sold my HHKB Type-S for this. No regrets. Of course that only covers about half the cost...
Post by: heedpantsnow on Wed, 20 January 2016, 12:00:30
Can we get a carbon fiber infused case with little pink pony's hopping around with clacks as legs?
This is entirely possible.
Post by: livingspeedbump on Wed, 20 January 2016, 13:43:01
Post by: absyrd on Wed, 20 January 2016, 13:45:21
PLEASE, kb gods, make this GB easy and smooth for the sake of GH.
Post by: romevi on Wed, 20 January 2016, 13:46:31
SUCCESS! now the wallet hurt begins :confused:
Right? I was going to try and pay the Duck Octagon v2 next month, but the wallet permits only one. Sorry, Duck; I've dreamed of owning one of your boards for years, but a new Model F is a chance of a lifetime. :-\
Post by: geniekid on Wed, 20 January 2016, 15:00:10
Success! Success! Success!
[SNIP]
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Air tree on Wed, 20 January 2016, 16:24:14
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 20 January 2016, 18:26:41
SUCCESS! now the wallet hurt begins ???
Right? I was going to try and pay the Duck Octagon v2 next month, but the wallet permits only one. Sorry, Duck; I've dreamed of owning one of your boards for years, but a new Model F is a chance of a lifetime. :-\
Live a little, get BOTH 8) .
Time to fill your world with some decent keyboards and never stop at getting just one.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 20 January 2016, 18:30:18
Post by: Jedi on Wed, 20 January 2016, 19:35:51
Post by: ctm on Wed, 20 January 2016, 21:37:07
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 20 January 2016, 21:39:14
In the buckling spring graphics, the wall of the keycap seems a little curved. It looks more like a SA profile cap, but most if not all model F do not use SA caps. The walls of model F caps are flat.
All F and M caps are the same profile.
Post by: Ir0n on Wed, 20 January 2016, 22:10:00
looks like you can are but I wanna make sure because I might just get a new one for it
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 20 January 2016, 22:36:50
Some DT and GH users like Hypersphere are planning to mod their F62 with a USB extension cable so you can detach the USB cable without opening up the keyboard. There's plenty of room inside to fit an extension cable. You may need to file down the hole to make it slightly larger.
Post by: livingspeedbump on Wed, 20 January 2016, 22:48:32
Nope ir0n. It's very easy to open up though - just 4 regular screws to get inside though, plus another screw for the metal strain relief. You can probably use that cable and route it from the inside.
Some DT and GH users like Hypersphere are planning to mod their F62 with a USB extension cable so you can detach the USB cable without opening up the keyboard. There's plenty of room inside to fit an extension cable. You may need to file down the hole to make it slightly larger.
Yeah, this is what I did to my last Model F. Helps you have the option to keep it stock as well, and is super easy to do.
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 20 January 2016, 23:17:55
Nope ir0n. It's very easy to open up though - just 4 regular screws to get inside though, plus another screw for the metal strain relief. You can probably use that cable and route it from the inside.
Some DT and GH users like Hypersphere are planning to mod their F62 with a USB extension cable so you can detach the USB cable without opening up the keyboard. There's plenty of room inside to fit an extension cable. You may need to file down the hole to make it slightly larger.
Yeah, this is what I did to my last Model F. Helps you have the option to keep it stock as well, and is super easy to do.
If you want to live the dream - keep the original cable as is. Remember that WE are in this GB because it's a Model-F creation hence you don't defame or remove any original appointments delivered in this package.
It would be sacrilege to mix Smirnoff with Pickle Juice, so why would you disembowel a perfect Model-F to run a removable usb cable? You'll be cutting off it's 'originality' just so you could be with the "hip crowd" here on GH Central, damn them all to hell, leave this keyboard as is >:( .
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 20 January 2016, 23:26:33
Nope ir0n. It's very easy to open up though - just 4 regular screws to get inside though, plus another screw for the metal strain relief. You can probably use that cable and route it from the inside.
Some DT and GH users like Hypersphere are planning to mod their F62 with a USB extension cable so you can detach the USB cable without opening up the keyboard. There's plenty of room inside to fit an extension cable. You may need to file down the hole to make it slightly larger.
Yeah, this is what I did to my last Model F. Helps you have the option to keep it stock as well, and is super easy to do.
If you want to live the dream - keep the original cable as is. Remember that WE are in this GB because it's a Model-F creation hence you don't defame or remove any original appointments delivered in this package.
It would be sacrilege to mix Smirnoff with Pickle Juice, so why would you disembowel a perfect Model-F to run a removable usb cable? You'll be cutting off it's 'originality' just so you could be with the "hip crowd" here on GH Central, damn them all to hell, leave this keyboard as is >:( .
So where does this put me?
[attach=1]
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 20 January 2016, 23:27:23
Post by: Ir0n on Wed, 20 January 2016, 23:29:12
Nope ir0n. It's very easy to open up though - just 4 regular screws to get inside though, plus another screw for the metal strain relief. You can probably use that cable and route it from the inside.
Some DT and GH users like Hypersphere are planning to mod their F62 with a USB extension cable so you can detach the USB cable without opening up the keyboard. There's plenty of room inside to fit an extension cable. You may need to file down the hole to make it slightly larger.
Yeah, this is what I did to my last Model F. Helps you have the option to keep it stock as well, and is super easy to do.
If you want to live the dream - keep the original cable as is. Remember that WE are in this GB because it's a Model-F creation hence you don't defame or remove any original appointments delivered in this package.
It would be sacrilege to mix Smirnoff with Pickle Juice, so why would you disembowel a perfect Model-F to run a removable usb cable? You'll be cutting off it's 'originality' just so you could be with the "hip crowd" here on GH Central, damn them all to hell, leave this keyboard as is >:( .
So where does this put me?
(Attachment Link)
A guy with a snazzy tiny at-at that likes putting stickers on stuff
Post by: Melvang on Wed, 20 January 2016, 23:30:25
Nope ir0n. It's very easy to open up though - just 4 regular screws to get inside though, plus another screw for the metal strain relief. You can probably use that cable and route it from the inside.
Some DT and GH users like Hypersphere are planning to mod their F62 with a USB extension cable so you can detach the USB cable without opening up the keyboard. There's plenty of room inside to fit an extension cable. You may need to file down the hole to make it slightly larger.
Yeah, this is what I did to my last Model F. Helps you have the option to keep it stock as well, and is super easy to do.
If you want to live the dream - keep the original cable as is. Remember that WE are in this GB because it's a Model-F creation hence you don't defame or remove any original appointments delivered in this package.
It would be sacrilege to mix Smirnoff with Pickle Juice, so why would you disembowel a perfect Model-F to run a removable usb cable? You'll be cutting off it's 'originality' just so you could be with the "hip crowd" here on GH Central, damn them all to hell, leave this keyboard as is >:( .
So where does this put me?
(Attachment Link)
A guy with a snazzy tiny at-at that likes putting stickers on stuff
Thats my AT-AT posing with my AT.
Post by: Ir0n on Wed, 20 January 2016, 23:31:50
Nope ir0n. It's very easy to open up though - just 4 regular screws to get inside though, plus another screw for the metal strain relief. You can probably use that cable and route it from the inside.
Some DT and GH users like Hypersphere are planning to mod their F62 with a USB extension cable so you can detach the USB cable without opening up the keyboard. There's plenty of room inside to fit an extension cable. You may need to file down the hole to make it slightly larger.
Yeah, this is what I did to my last Model F. Helps you have the option to keep it stock as well, and is super easy to do.
If you want to live the dream - keep the original cable as is. Remember that WE are in this GB because it's a Model-F creation hence you don't defame or remove any original appointments delivered in this package.
It would be sacrilege to mix Smirnoff with Pickle Juice, so why would you disembowel a perfect Model-F to run a removable usb cable? You'll be cutting off it's 'originality' just so you could be with the "hip crowd" here on GH Central, damn them all to hell, leave this keyboard as is >:( .
So where does this put me?
(Attachment Link)
A guy with a snazzy tiny at-at that likes putting stickers on stuff
Thats my AT-AT posing with my AT.
(http://i.imgur.com/NwKXNav.gif)
Post by: livingspeedbump on Wed, 20 January 2016, 23:37:01
Nope ir0n. It's very easy to open up though - just 4 regular screws to get inside though, plus another screw for the metal strain relief. You can probably use that cable and route it from the inside.
Some DT and GH users like Hypersphere are planning to mod their F62 with a USB extension cable so you can detach the USB cable without opening up the keyboard. There's plenty of room inside to fit an extension cable. You may need to file down the hole to make it slightly larger.
Yeah, this is what I did to my last Model F. Helps you have the option to keep it stock as well, and is super easy to do.
If you want to live the dream - keep the original cable as is. Remember that WE are in this GB because it's a Model-F creation hence you don't defame or remove any original appointments delivered in this package.
It would be sacrilege to mix Smirnoff with Pickle Juice, so why would you disembowel a perfect Model-F to run a removable usb cable? You'll be cutting off it's 'originality' just so you could be with the "hip crowd" here on GH Central, damn them all to hell, leave this keyboard as is >:( .
Yeah agreed. The total replication of this is what makes it very special. On the other hand if you are going to tote this around (maybe you want a workout?) having a removable cable is always good, and using an extension usb is definitely the way to go.
Post by: romevi on Wed, 20 January 2016, 23:42:56
Nope ir0n. It's very easy to open up though - just 4 regular screws to get inside though, plus another screw for the metal strain relief. You can probably use that cable and route it from the inside.
Some DT and GH users like Hypersphere are planning to mod their F62 with a USB extension cable so you can detach the USB cable without opening up the keyboard. There's plenty of room inside to fit an extension cable. You may need to file down the hole to make it slightly larger.
Yeah, this is what I did to my last Model F. Helps you have the option to keep it stock as well, and is super easy to do.
If you want to live the dream - keep the original cable as is. Remember that WE are in this GB because it's a Model-F creation hence you don't defame or remove any original appointments delivered in this package.
It would be sacrilege to mix Smirnoff with Pickle Juice, so why would you disembowel a perfect Model-F to run a removable usb cable? You'll be cutting off it's 'originality' just so you could be with the "hip crowd" here on GH Central, damn them all to hell, leave this keyboard as is >:( .
So where does this put me?
(Attachment Link)
A guy with a snazzy tiny at-at that likes putting stickers on stuff
Thats my AT-AT posing with my AT.
Your All Terrain Armored Transport with your Advanced Technology keyboard?
(Please let me be right. I did all that un-abbreviating straight from memory.)
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 21 January 2016, 00:24:58
Yeah agreed. The total replication of this is what makes it very special. On the other hand if you are going to tote this around (maybe you want a workout?) having a removable cable is always good, and using an extension usb is definitely the way to go.
Geez Louise, this is me and you should know what I'm like by now ;) .
You can customize your own F62/F77 any way you like, bugger what anyone else thinks here on GH, especially that old Geezer ............. what's his name ........ ?
Post by: MOZ on Thu, 21 January 2016, 01:34:11
I may have to try to raise some funds for this.. the Canadian dollar hurts really bad right now though.:'( That graph tells the whole storyShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/9HAo2GZ.png)
#ZumaMustFall. That ass has made being a keyboard and PC enthusiast a curse.
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 21 January 2016, 01:40:00
I may have to try to raise some funds for this.. the Canadian dollar hurts really bad right now though.:'( That graph tells the whole storyShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/9HAo2GZ.png)
#ZumaMustFall. That ass has made being a keyboard and PC enthusiast a curse.
That is where our Dollar is going, hence why the fuss?
We have a so-called advanced democratic system (Australia) and both 2 party system, guarantees a lower dollar to boost our 3rd world industries of Agriculture and Mining. Wait on, this is nothing to be proud of here at all but the media keeps telling us this everyday, on how lucky we are......... :'(
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 21 January 2016, 02:01:52
I may have to try to raise some funds for this.. the Canadian dollar hurts really bad right now though.:'( That graph tells the whole storyShow Image(https://i.imgur.com/9HAo2GZ.png)
#ZumaMustFall. That ass has made being a keyboard and PC enthusiast a curse.
That is where our Dollar is going, hence why the fuss?
We have a so-called advanced democratic system (Australia) and both 2 party system, guarantees a lower dollar to boost our 3rd world industries of Agriculture and Mining. Wait on, this is nothing to be proud of here at all but the media keeps telling us this everyday, on how lucky we are......... :'(
Don't complain too loudly, I would give a pinky for our currency to be back at the level the aus dollar is now to the US dollar :) Although I was surprised to see how much it has lost over the last couple years. Still pretty lucky though as far as I know your income levels/quality of life are some of the best in the world ;)
But this is a depressing topic, let's get back to the amazing Model Fs that are incoming!
Just a quick poll: What colours / layouts / Model are you guys going for?
I'm going F62 black with blank black keys (HHKB style - I know sorry Elrick I just love that fn key, I probably would have gone standard layout and just had a 1u shift on the right but blank black key limitations have forced me this way - Unicomp not making std right shifts and also not making unstepped capslock keys)
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 21 January 2016, 03:02:50
Just a quick poll: What colours / layouts / Model are you guys going for?
I'm going F62 black with blank black keys (HHKB style - I know sorry Elrick I just love that fn key, I probably would have gone standard layout and just had a 1u shift on the right but blank black key limitations have forced me this way - Unicomp not making std right shifts and also not making unstepped capslock keys)
Going for an F77 done in standard Industrial Gray with Dark Blue Legends on Pebble and Cream keys via Unicomp.
Nothing too customized plus it should be delivered easily, it's the weirdos here on GH that would order something off world and demand lots of extras on their Model-Fs that will have them waiting for some time.
Post by: fanpeople on Thu, 21 January 2016, 03:06:02
Post by: Ir0n on Thu, 21 January 2016, 04:38:28
Quote
I'm going F62 black with blank black keys (HHKB style - I know sorry Elrick I just love that fn key, I probably would have gone standard layout and just had a 1u shift on the right but blank black key limitations have forced me this way - Unicomp not making std right shifts and also not making unstepped capslock keys)
I think I'm going F62 as well..I already have a Model F AT and its pretty similar but i don't know.. opinions ? :p
hoping I can get it painted red lol
I might mod it and put a USB plug on the back of it using a small panel usb mount and cut out a plate for it
just makes moving it around more easy in my opinion
Post by: henz on Thu, 21 January 2016, 04:41:43
Post by: Karura on Thu, 21 January 2016, 04:53:38
How did you get the Chinese factory/company to agree to make the moulds and stuff for you, if it's for such a limited run? I envision that you might want to re-run these a few more times to get the most out of the moulds, would that be correct?
Post by: pr0ximity on Thu, 21 January 2016, 05:21:38
Post by: romevi on Thu, 21 January 2016, 08:18:59
THE TIME HAS COME!
AND SO HAVE I.
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 21 January 2016, 08:30:36
Can't recall, did these end up being cast or milled aluminum?
Ellipse said something recently about them possibly being cast like the originals but I think he said the prototypes are milled.
Post by: cjhard on Thu, 21 January 2016, 13:34:23
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 21 January 2016, 16:55:16
Correct I have not decided on CNC vs. mold for the case just yet. I hope to do a mold for metal cases as an upgrade from CNC milled aluminum.
Karura the key is to use photos extensively - I send photos with the specifications of what I am looking for, and they send photos of what they make before they send it to me. They didn't agree to make the molds, I paid for the molds ;). The problem is the high MOQ and tooling costs associated with each run. Also not everything is made with a mold - setting up the machines to make all the different parts in a Model F costs a bundle. The MOQ for the barrels and flippers, for example, is tens of thousands of each of them. Therefore I am doing the early bird run and the regular run in a big batch.
ccc24 the keyboard will arrive to you pre-programmed for the layout you choose. Of course you'll want to configure the layers and such (I will put in a default function layer for everyone).
Who has suggestions for the Kishsaver function/2nd layer?
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Thu, 21 January 2016, 17:01:36
I vote for HHKB style fn layer. It's what I'm most used to though, so I am partial to it.
Post by: fanpeople on Thu, 21 January 2016, 17:13:47
But srs deadline?
Post by: Ludovician on Thu, 21 January 2016, 17:30:29
What would the deadline be for early bird? Are birds involved?
But srs deadline?
I believe it's 22/2.
Post by: fanpeople on Thu, 21 January 2016, 17:36:11
What would the deadline be for early bird? Are birds involved?
But srs deadline?
I believe it's 22/2.
Sweet cheers
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 21 January 2016, 20:15:45
Any more early bird tooling volunteers? So far 9 of you have volunteered to kick in $100 for the early bird tooling costs out of the 15 needed. It helps everyone get their keyboards in April/May instead of August/September, and you get moved towards the front of the line and get your keyboard tested and mailed earlier.
All I would like to know is when can we purchase our keyboards from your website?
That is indeed the ONLY thing I want to know about this online Model-F purchase.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 21 January 2016, 21:01:14
Elrick I will let you know! It should be by the end of the month, maybe as soon as this weekend! The prototype is tested and working 100% but I want to get the professional-looking photographs and video up on the site beforehand.
Post by: Melvang on Thu, 21 January 2016, 21:21:54
I'm typing on the brand new Model F62 keyboard! I just did a typing test and the keys/my typing were 100% accurate and I was able to type even faster than on my original Model F! The F62 has been completely assembled. I still have to assemble and test the F77 and continue my testing.
Elrick I will let you know! It should be by the end of the month, maybe as soon as this weekend! The prototype is tested and working 100% but I want to get the professional-looking photographs and video up on the site beforehand.
What did you end up using as a voltage threshold if you don't mind me asking?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 21 January 2016, 21:32:41
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 21 January 2016, 21:46:28
Elrick I will let you know! It should be by the end of the month, maybe as soon as this weekend! The prototype is tested and working 100% but I want to get the professional-looking photographs and video up on the site beforehand.
I'll be hanging onto my current work laptop for instant payment when you make this finally happen 8) .
Sorry in putting the pressure upon you but I've been waiting for this Keyboard for such a long time and don't want to miss out when you post that all important link. When you get old you don't want anymore nasty surprises to be sprung here especially when it comes to owning this keyboard.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 21 January 2016, 22:09:51
Everyone feel free to check out the site and point out errors. I haven't finalized shipping costs yet as I have not weighed the final keyboards with packaging. The other pricing should be accurate unless Unicomp changed their pricing recently.
The photos are stand-in photos and will be replaced with new photos before ordering opens. The YouTube video on the home page doesn't exist yet so it's just a placeholder box there.
Post by: romevi on Thu, 21 January 2016, 22:41:17
Well Elrick the link is already out there - modelfkeyboards.com - it's just that ordering is disabled :)
Everyone feel free to check out the site and point out errors. I haven't finalized shipping costs yet as I have not weighed the final keyboards with packaging. The other pricing should be accurate unless Unicomp changed their pricing recently.
The photos are stand-in photos and will be replaced with new photos before ordering opens. The YouTube video on the home page doesn't exist yet so it's just a placeholder box there.
Ooh; bookmarking so I can read everything on there!
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 21 January 2016, 22:50:52
Can anyone volunteer a Manhattan venue to host the keyboard meetup? Maybe someone in the tech industry with permission to use a conference room for the meetup?
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Fri, 22 January 2016, 03:02:00
It would be sacrilege to mix Smirnoff with Pickle Juice
You know...I may actually try that haha :p
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 22 January 2016, 04:41:25
Post by: 3K on Fri, 22 January 2016, 07:57:39
Well Elrick the link is already out there - modelfkeyboards.com - it's just that ordering is disabled :)
Everyone feel free to check out the site and point out errors. I haven't finalized shipping costs yet as I have not weighed the final keyboards with packaging. The other pricing should be accurate unless Unicomp changed their pricing recently.
The photos are stand-in photos and will be replaced with new photos before ordering opens. The YouTube video on the home page doesn't exist yet so it's just a placeholder box there.
I do not like how much this website will consume my money...
Are the extra parts only available with purchasing a whole board? Or could I order like a single spring assembly?
Also are the 'Unprinted 1U key' units single parts or top and bottom part? Would love to go full blank on the BS boards I already own.
Talking about older boards... is there a way to offer SDL cables too? Or general replacement controllers / adapters for Ms?
(these questions kind of imply that you offer more reasonable shipping fees than existing sources, like the unicomp website)
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Fri, 22 January 2016, 09:16:57
How's next week for a Manhattan keyboard meetup to see the new F62/F77s and any other keyboards people want to bring (hoping for some original Model F's, M's, beamsprings, etc.)?
Can anyone volunteer a Manhattan venue to host the keyboard meetup? Maybe someone in the tech industry with permission to use a conference room for the meetup?
Forget about Manhattan, do the meetup in Chicago. :cool:
Post by: romevi on Fri, 22 January 2016, 09:24:54
How's next week for a Manhattan keyboard meetup to see the new F62/F77s and any other keyboards people want to bring (hoping for some original Model F's, M's, beamsprings, etc.)?
Can anyone volunteer a Manhattan venue to host the keyboard meetup? Maybe someone in the tech industry with permission to use a conference room for the meetup?
Forget about Manhattan, do the meetup in Chicago. :cool:
Aww, yis...
Post by: ctm on Fri, 22 January 2016, 10:48:54
Post by: ryahirv on Fri, 22 January 2016, 10:59:31
If you still an Early Bird, I'm willing - Just let me know.
Cheers
Post by: againer on Fri, 22 January 2016, 17:15:12
Nope ir0n. It's very easy to open up though - just 4 regular screws to get inside though, plus another screw for the metal strain relief. You can probably use that cable and route it from the inside.
Some DT and GH users like Hypersphere are planning to mod their F62 with a USB extension cable so you can detach the USB cable without opening up the keyboard. There's plenty of room inside to fit an extension cable. You may need to file down the hole to make it slightly larger.
Yeah, this is what I did to my last Model F. Helps you have the option to keep it stock as well, and is super easy to do.
If you want to live the dream - keep the original cable as is. Remember that WE are in this GB because it's a Model-F creation hence you don't defame or remove any original appointments delivered in this package.
It would be sacrilege to mix Smirnoff with Pickle Juice, so why would you disembowel a perfect Model-F to run a removable usb cable? You'll be cutting off it's 'originality' just so you could be with the "hip crowd" here on GH Central, damn them all to hell, leave this keyboard as is >:( .
If I wanted an original model F only a real original would satisfy me and I had to buy an expensive vintage model F.
Personally I am here for a superior switch in a portable form factor. So the 60% Model F with the hopefully coming smaller case will be my thing. And a detachable USB cable makes it easier to put in a bag too.
You can even send me to Hell if you let me use the F62 on the journey. :D
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 January 2016, 18:12:31
I added an option for a Model M cable as I have a few extras.
Thanks ryahirv I appreciate it!
A note for all the early bird tooling volunteers - to make it easy I just added a cart item called "Early Bird Tooling Volunteer" - please add that to your cart when placing your order. Your order will get moved towards the head of the line in terms of when I test and ship your keyboard, as well as getting an earlier serial number and your user name will be included on the label inside the keyboard.
This puts us at 12 early bird volunteers out of the 15 needed (assuming no one changes their mind)!
And againer the smaller case would be a lot easier to travel with than the original case. The F62/F77 keyboards will be heavy!
I would like to help make this smaller case for the same price as the larger case since some of you really want the smaller case - please everyone let me know if you're interested in the smaller case!
ctm I expect to include the keys that Unicomp sends me when you order a particular set. I will talk with Unicomp to try to get a bulk discount, and possibly an additional discount if they provide fewer keys for the F62 set, for example the Insert/Delete/etc. keys and the whole num pad area is could be skipped and possibly save everyone $5. If you want a full set included with your F62 that can be done too.
The boxes are so sturdy - the F62 box weighs one pound!
Post by: ryahirv on Fri, 22 January 2016, 18:23:11
Thanks ryahirv I appreciate it!
A note for all the early bird tooling volunteers - to make it easy I just added a cart item called "Early Bird Tooling Volunteer" - please add that to your cart when placing your order. Your order will get moved towards the head of the line in terms of when I test and ship your keyboard, as well as getting an earlier serial number and your user name will be included on the label inside the keyboard.
Sorry - Confused.
Should we be doing this now?
Where/How?
Thanks!
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 22 January 2016, 18:33:21
This puts us at 12 early bird volunteers out of the 15 needed (assuming no one changes their mind)!
Yeah, where's the rest of you lot? Talk about claiming to be Model-F fanatics and I can't believe that there are only 12 of them on this planet.
Ellipse isn't a Korean Rip-Off merchant, wanting something for nothing but if there's not enough volunteers then this keyboard will take months before anyone gets anything, it's your choice people.
Besides where's the hardcore addicts, wanting a low numbered Model-F keyboard which so much of you aren't afraid of handing over $600USD+ for a single USED SSK?
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 January 2016, 18:35:48
Elrick we are very close to 15 so I'm sure 3 more people will really want it early and will want to help everyone!
Per my web site, the regular round will run a few more months, meaning the regular round keyboards won't arrive until August/September. The early bird ones should arrive in April/May.
Post by: ccc24 on Fri, 22 January 2016, 19:00:46
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 January 2016, 19:03:01
Post by: ccc24 on Fri, 22 January 2016, 19:14:42
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 January 2016, 19:24:54
If you want to switch ctrl and caps lock you will need to either get blank caps or pay $4 for the Unicomp caps with switched legends.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 22 January 2016, 19:38:04
ANSI backspace or split into two keys?
ANSI enter and \| keys, or ISO Enter key?
ANSI left shift, or ISO short left shift + extra key?
[F77] two individual keys, or numpad-style double size vertical + key?
[F77] two individual keys, or numpad--style double size vertical Enter key?
These are choices that will be easier to have done by the factory during assembly. I know it's not super difficult to dismantle and reconfigure (I've ANSI-fied F122s), but for the price it would be nice not to have to do that, and just customize the key caps themselves.
Also, please remember to list separately orderable products for:
Extra F62 packaging (gotta give my original Kish a nice storage home)
Extra F62 foam mats
Maybe F77 versions of the above, though I know there are only a couple of those known to exist.
Extra painted F62 cases, for those who want them.
Post by: ccc24 on Fri, 22 January 2016, 19:39:52
Yes please use the notes section for requests and I will try.
If you want to switch ctrl and caps lock you will need to either get blank caps or pay $4 for the Unicomp caps with switched legends.
I'll probably get the APL keycaps but I don't mind if it doesn't actually have control printed instead of Caps Lock, I just want the key mapped to Control
Post by: ctm on Fri, 22 January 2016, 19:42:10
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 22 January 2016, 19:44:56
I think the order form should have drop downs to allow customizing some of the flipper/stabilizer choices (with images or illustrations highlighting the difference each choice makes). I think the default drop down choice should be the first listed for each of these:
ANSI backspace or split into two keys?
ANSI enter and \| keys, or ISO Enter key?
ANSI left shift, or ISO short left shift + extra key?
[F77] two individual keys, or numpad-style double size vertical + key?
[F77] two individual keys, or numpad--style double size vertical Enter key?
These are choices that will be easier to have done by the factory during assembly. I know it's not super difficult to dismantle and reconfigure (I've ANSI-fied F122s), but for the price it would be nice not to have to do that, and just customize the key caps themselves.
Also, please remember to list separately orderable products for:
Extra F62 packaging (gotta give my original Kish a nice storage home)
Extra F62 foam mats
Maybe F77 versions of the above, though I know there are only a couple of those known to exist.
Extra painted F62 cases, for those who want them.
Or just have all the barrels empty, and ship the stabilizer inserts in a bag, and let the user put them in. White inserts are for horizontal keys such as ANSI Enter, backspace, and shift. Black inserts are for vertical keys such as ISO enter, Numpad Enter and numpad +. They just push in with no disassembly required. Taking the plates apart is really only required if you want to move inserts around without risking scratching them.
On the current webside, F62 with ANSI keys is listed at $359 and F62 without keys is $325. This seems more expensive than standard Unicomp set. Am I missing something?
Shipping keys from unicomp with standard Unicomp shipping.
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Fri, 22 January 2016, 19:46:41
Any more early bird tooling volunteers? So far 9 of you have volunteered to kick in $100 for the early bird tooling costs out of the 15 needed. It helps everyone get their keyboards in April/May instead of August/September, and you get moved towards the front of the line and get your keyboard tested and mailed earlier.Sign me up!!! Just drop me a pm where to send money :p
Correct I have not decided on CNC vs. mold for the case just yet. I hope to do a mold for metal cases as an upgrade from CNC milled aluminum.
Karura the key is to use photos extensively - I send photos with the specifications of what I am looking for, and they send photos of what they make before they send it to me. They didn't agree to make the molds, I paid for the molds ;). The problem is the high MOQ and tooling costs associated with each run. Also not everything is made with a mold - setting up the machines to make all the different parts in a Model F costs a bundle. The MOQ for the barrels and flippers, for example, is tens of thousands of each of them. Therefore I am doing the early bird run and the regular run in a big batch.
ccc24 the keyboard will arrive to you pre-programmed for the layout you choose. Of course you'll want to configure the layers and such (I will put in a default function layer for everyone).
Who has suggestions for the Kishsaver function/2nd layer?
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 22 January 2016, 19:46:44
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 22 January 2016, 19:49:39
You need to take the plates apart to move flippers.
This may be true, bit would add TONS of time shipping inserts from Unicomp to China for the factory to do it.
Is thwre a Kit option which would be build yourself to sace a few dollars?
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 22 January 2016, 19:53:50
You need to take the plates apart to move flippers.
This may be true, bit would add TONS of time shipping inserts from Unicomp to China for the factory to do it.
I don't mind if the stabilizers are left out by the factory, but some barrels will need to either have a flipper in it, or be left empty by them, depending on the choice made.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 January 2016, 20:18:42
Key costs are passed on from Unicomp and include the key set, spacebar (separate cost on Unicomp's side), 3-4 stabilizer inserts, and any other custom keys needed for the key set.
There is no kit option. They need to be assembled and tested. I will be testing each one for quality control. One bad spring could cause the key not to buckle.
Techno please take a look at my web site for the drop downs I put in for now. Split backspace with regular layout, vertical 2U enter/plus keys, etc. can be requested by entering a note in before clicking add to cart. The most common layout options will have a dropdown. The rest will be "by request/note only."
A number of GHers suggested to keep the options limited and let those who want to move their caps around, move their own caps around, but just offer the different flipper/spring arrangements to minimize someone having to open up their keyboard.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Fri, 22 January 2016, 20:59:05
Will we be able to add extra packaging and mats to the cart? Also, I asked this a while back but it probably got lost in the shuffle. Would Unicomp be able to provide key sets made up of their gray modifiers and brilliant white alphas?
Post by: cjhard on Fri, 22 January 2016, 21:00:37
Keys: [existing options]
Color: [existing options]
Enter Cluster: ISO, ANSI, 3-key / Split
Left Shift: ISO Split, ANSI
Right Shift: HHKB Fn-Split, ANSI, OG Split
Backspace: Split, 2u-wide
And simple pictographs depicting the location and meaning of each option.
I wish Unicomp still made the blue modifiers from the UK Wildcats board. That would be so ace to have Electric Bluegaloo together with Blue Legend Alphas
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 January 2016, 21:31:49
It looks like Unicomp offers gray or white but to get both you'd need to pay extra for the modifier keys. Before paying I recommend emailing Unicomp to see if your combo is possible as an option without extra cost. So that you know what the total will be before placing the order.
As an alternate option cjhard, Unicomp still offers blue, red, or green keys at extra cost. http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons
Post by: cjhard on Fri, 22 January 2016, 21:44:05
Maybe I'll wait around the Electronic Bay sometime after this buy :)
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 January 2016, 22:59:00
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Post by: SixtyLife on Fri, 22 January 2016, 23:05:40
Feast your eyes on some of my very first F62/F77 photos and a quick photo during the assembly process :)DAMN. Congrats on your beautiful babies Ellipse!
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Post by: cjhard on Fri, 22 January 2016, 23:12:04
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 22 January 2016, 23:16:54
Post by: ccc24 on Fri, 22 January 2016, 23:27:52
Post by: KetchyKech on Fri, 22 January 2016, 23:28:44
*excitement* ;D
edit: now im debating going f62 ....omg i was so dead set on f77.... :eek: AH!!!
edit2: Oh ellipse, I see there is an option on the website for custom colors that requires that we message you- - should we do so now before orders open>?
edit#3!!: any news on obtaining front printed keycaps from unicomp? (at least for F keys) i recall that being mentioned :x
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 22 January 2016, 23:36:25
Post by: calvinhousecat on Fri, 22 January 2016, 23:43:00
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 22 January 2016, 23:43:23
Could we have a type test video Ellipse :D
Dude come on, i am out of seamen.
Post by: calvinhousecat on Fri, 22 January 2016, 23:44:16
Could we have a type test video Ellipse :D
Dude come on, i am out of seamen.
I just noticed your avatar
whats on your hhkb... thats not what I think it is right? :eek:
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 22 January 2016, 23:46:54
Could we have a type test video Ellipse :D
Dude come on, i am out of seamen.
I just noticed your avatar
whats on your hhkb... thats not what I think it is right? :eek:
:blank: as I said, out of seamen.
Post by: calvinhousecat on Fri, 22 January 2016, 23:49:33
Could we have a type test video Ellipse :D
Dude come on, i am out of seamen.
I just noticed your avatar
whats on your hhkb... thats not what I think it is right? :eek:
:blank: as I said, out of seamen.
(http://i.imgur.com/GQb2dQs.gif)
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 23 January 2016, 00:44:10
U WOT M8?Could we have a type test video Ellipse :D
Dude come on, i am out of seamen.
I just noticed your avatar
whats on your hhkb... thats not what I think it is right? :eek:
:blank: as I said, out of seamen.
Post by: Karura on Sat, 23 January 2016, 01:47:05
Any updates on the colour options?
Also, any updates on the HHKB layout? Are we going to be using a "capslock" and a 1u, or something different?
Post by: fanpeople on Sat, 23 January 2016, 02:42:09
U WOT M8?
It has been long enough, I am no longer out
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Sat, 23 January 2016, 02:49:36
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 23 January 2016, 03:10:22
Feast your eyes on some of my very first F62/F77 photos and a quick photo during the assembly process :)
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Oh SCHWEET GEEZUS, can't believe how beautiful the F77 is sitting inside it's protection packaging. It's like an innocent princess, sleeping in her bed waiting for me to wake her from her slumber ;D .
You've got me salivating for this keyboard more and more each day, I don't think I can last much longer.
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 23 January 2016, 03:12:22
You still have enough seamen for the GB? cause mine just emptied from all this photoFeast your eyes on some of my very first F62/F77 photos and a quick photo during the assembly process :)
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Oh SCHWEET GEEZUS, can't believe how beautiful the F77 is sitting inside it's protection packaging. It's like an innocent princess, sleeping in her bed waiting for me to wake her from her slumber ;D .
You've got me salivating for this keyboard more and more each day, I don't think I can last much longer.
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 23 January 2016, 03:17:08
You still have enough seamen for the GB? cause mine just emptied from all this photo
Always, just they're getting bigger and bigger each day and soon I'll have to release the pressure.
Women are born lucky but us lot here, suffer from our messed up plumbing and storage sacks ;) .
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 23 January 2016, 03:40:43
Heheheheh you really can hold the seamen from escaping eh good self control!You still have enough seamen for the GB? cause mine just emptied from all this photo
Always, just they're getting bigger and bigger each day and soon I'll have to release the pressure.
Women are born lucky but us lot here, suffer from our messed up plumbing and storage sacks ;) .
Post by: atlas3686 on Sat, 23 January 2016, 05:41:06
Feast your eyes on some of my very first F62/F77 photos and a quick photo during the assembly process :)(https://i.imgur.com/zAucx3J.gif)
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Post by: cjhard on Sat, 23 January 2016, 10:08:39
I just spilt seamen on my keyboard.
Dude come on, i am out of seamen.
:blank: as I said, out of seamen.
Heheheheh you really can hold the seamen from escaping eh good self control!
Always, just they're getting bigger and bigger each day and soon I'll have to release the pressure.
Women are born lucky but us lot here, suffer from our messed up plumbing and storage sacks ;) .
You still have enough seamen for the GB? cause mine just emptied from all this photo
Y'all mother****ers are gross.
Post by: megahertzcoil on Sat, 23 January 2016, 10:10:58
Feast your eyes on some of my very first F62/F77 photos and a quick photo during the assembly process :)
Ellipse, truly incredible work! It's amazing to see this all come together. I can only image how excited you were to finally assemble the prototypes!
Post by: geniekid on Sat, 23 January 2016, 11:12:08
Post by: Jedi on Sat, 23 January 2016, 11:17:28
This is looking pretty good. :thumb:
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 23 January 2016, 14:36:07
Only one or two people suggested a specific Pantone color (which is needed to get a custom color). One suggested Pantone true red 19-1664.
Post by: CPTBadAss on Sat, 23 January 2016, 14:37:26
Feast your eyes on some of my very first F62/F77 photos and a quick photo during the assembly process :)
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This post made me feel some type of way. Very sexy. Now if only we could get pics of the factory making all this!
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 23 January 2016, 14:50:50
Post by: CPTBadAss on Sat, 23 January 2016, 14:52:01
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 23 January 2016, 16:52:50
Man, post those pics again, this really looks like we building a tank. I'd love to chose a custom color but gawd dayum that f77 base color is kicking just the way it is. Really, this is like one of the rare ICs that goes all the way to proof of concept shown BEFORE the GB is even in effect.
This is looking pretty good. :thumb:
Ellipse is only making the original Model-F keyboard but with updated internals for us to use on any PC. He's the one that has maintained the true concept of what a Model-F should be and he did it on his own with his own money.
Name me here on Geekhack, anyone who has gone on his own to develop a brand new Model-F with no Group Buy funding whatsoever?
A lot of people talk about it, a lot fantasize about it but this guy delivered it by himself, kudos to the one and only Ellipse :thumb: .
Post by: xondat on Sat, 23 January 2016, 17:13:41
Feast your eyes on some of my very first F62/F77 photos and a quick photo during the assembly process :)
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First few look like renders, that's amazing.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 23 January 2016, 17:26:43
I also tested the split right shift prototype and everything buckles well (though I am unable to test for the software of those two keys since I did not order prototype split right shift PCBs for either the F77 or F62).
The key will be my instructions to the factory regarding the quality control. I will ask them to test each key and make a video showing which keys sound good and which ones should have their springs replaced. For whatever reason about 10 of the springs (they sent me extra springs fortunately) did not pass my quality control. Maybe they were half a mm too tall (or stretched out a little).
A video will be forthcoming...
Thanks xondat. Those F62 photos were taken in my new light tent setup with softbox lighting.
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 23 January 2016, 17:37:09
its not gross if its for keyboard ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)I just spilt seamen on my keyboard.Dude come on, i am out of seamen.:blank: as I said, out of seamen.Heheheheh you really can hold the seamen from escaping eh good self control!Always, just they're getting bigger and bigger each day and soon I'll have to release the pressure.
Women are born lucky but us lot here, suffer from our messed up plumbing and storage sacks ;) .You still have enough seamen for the GB? cause mine just emptied from all this photo
Y'all mother****ers are gross.
Post by: Pemdas on Sat, 23 January 2016, 18:07:46
I'm typing on the brand new F77! It is a great keyboard. Like I said with my F62 evaluation, these keyboards truly deserve the Model F moniker. The keypresses are very sharp and precise, as I'd imagine like a brand new original Model F would sound fresh out of the factory door in 1984, and maybe even a little better due to improvements in manufacturing and tolerances over the past few decades since the Model F's were introduced. There is noticeably less ringing/reverberation on these new prototypes compared to many of my original Model F keyboards, though there is still some musicality and different sounds with each key (though like I mentioned with my F62 evaluation, the keys are more consistent with each other in terms of their sound). I believe part of the reason for less ringing is the improved overall quality of the components which are able to take advantage of improvements in manufacturing accuracy, as well as the use of what I believe is a more dense, stable type of foam (the McMaster-Carr Neoprene/EDPM blend) as opposed to the less dense, disintegrating originals. Also I believe that a lot of the ringing is influenced by the condition of the foam and its relation to the top inner assembly (how tight/even the top inner assembly fits with the bottom inner assembly): the more disintegrated the foam, often the more ringing in general is what I've noticed.
I also tested the split right shift prototype and everything buckles well (though I am unable to test for the software of those two keys since I did not order prototype split right shift PCBs for either the F77 or F62).
The key will be my instructions to the factory regarding the quality control. I will ask them to test each key and make a video showing which keys sound good and which ones should have their springs replaced. For whatever reason about 10 of the springs (they sent me extra springs fortunately) did not pass my quality control. Maybe they were half a mm too tall (or stretched out a little).
A video will be forthcoming...
Thanks xondat. Those F62 photos were taken in my new light tent setup with softbox lighting.
Shaping up to be one amazing group buy! Can't wait to place my order :thumb:
Post by: stoic-lemon on Sat, 23 January 2016, 20:44:11
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 24 January 2016, 12:18:20
Post by: ctm on Sun, 24 January 2016, 15:05:34
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 24 January 2016, 16:01:18
Also the xwhatsit controller is not 100% likely. There are some DT users working on replacing xwhatsit's controller with a ~$10 pre-built dev board with capacitive sensing capabilities (it came to market recently), so the F77/F62 keyboards may go with that instead of the xwhatsit controller.
Post by: ctm on Sun, 24 January 2016, 16:05:10
Not sure ctm. If it's not part of xwhatsit's controller software, you could also try this dual role autohotkey script (I have not tried it): https://github.com/lydell/dualWhat firmware does that board use?
Also the xwhatsit controller is not 100% likely. There are some DT users working on replacing xwhatsit's controller with a ~$10 pre-built dev board with capacitive sensing capabilities (it came to market recently), so the F77/F62 keyboards may go with that instead of the xwhatsit controller.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 24 January 2016, 16:14:00
Post by: ctm on Sun, 24 January 2016, 16:21:34
The firmware and GUI are still in development. Here's the thread if you're interested or have more questions for the developer: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/alternate-ways-of-sensing-teh-fs-t12533.htmlThank you! I will check that out. Not a big deal if it does not support dual role at the end. I probably will need the USB to USB converter in future for some board that are not programmable.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 24 January 2016, 17:45:57
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Post by: fanpeople on Sun, 24 January 2016, 17:49:04
Post by: Ludovician on Sun, 24 January 2016, 17:58:05
Post by: fanpeople on Sun, 24 January 2016, 18:00:47
The standard layout supports it with the other way around, but one of the options has altered barrel placement to support it this way, although you can't use a standard right shift if you do that.
Ah so not a reversible option then.
Post by: SixtyLife on Sun, 24 January 2016, 18:18:35
Some more prototype photos here! I forgot to order a second caps lock key in the unprinted version so you are seeing one printed key on the F77 unprinted version of the photos in this group:looking good Ellipse. what are the two holes on the bottom of the case in the back? behind the cork feet?
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Post by: pr0ximity on Sun, 24 January 2016, 18:20:55
I really shouldn't get one, but you're making things very difficult for me :P
Post by: fanpeople on Sun, 24 January 2016, 18:28:31
looking good Ellipse. what are the two holes on the bottom of the case in the back? behind the cork feet?
Those are speed holes for when you use this thing to down an intruder that has broken into your house
Edit: srs question ellipse, can you give us the dimensions of those screws? I will most likely want to change them in the future.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 24 January 2016, 19:08:05
Here are the 6-32 screws I am planning on using: 4 of http://www.mcmaster.com/#91735a148/=xpocbd and 1 of http://www.mcmaster.com/#91735a144/=y3xunh
For the taller bumpers I will be including slightly longer screws than the above ones.
Post by: ctm on Sun, 24 January 2016, 19:24:53
Also, I see three kinds of spacebars (large, small pre 7/2013, small post 7/2013) listed on Unicomp website. If the spacebar is from Unicomp, which one is it?
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 24 January 2016, 19:46:10
Some more prototype photos here! I forgot to order a second caps lock key in the unprinted version so you are seeing one printed key on the F77 unprinted version of the photos in this group:
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AAAAhhhhhhhhhh, this place has just relieved me off a whole lot of moolah.
Suddenly Brazzers, NaughtyAmerica and DigitalPlayground are boring compared to this top Keyboard Pron site known as - Geekhack ;D .
Please give us more Ellipse, we want much more pics that includes lots of rear end shots here buddy, especially how the BIG Black Cord plants itself into the innocent Beige-like Casing :thumb: .
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 24 January 2016, 19:52:07
Your older Model M buckling spring space bars will also fit these keyboards. Model F space bars will not fit as the wire stabilizer does not extend as far.
Post by: bocahgundul on Sun, 24 January 2016, 20:05:20
Looking good ellipse
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Sun, 24 January 2016, 20:22:02
MoreSome more prototype photos here! I forgot to order a second caps lock key in the unprinted version so you are seeing one printed key on the F77 unprinted version of the photos in this group:
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AAAAhhhhhhhhhh, this place has just relieved me off a whole lot of moolah.
Suddenly Brazzers, NaughtyAmerica and DigitalPlayground are boring compared to this top Keyboard Pron site known as - Geekhack ;D .
Please give us more Ellipse, we want much more pics that includes lots of rear end shots here buddy, especially how the BIG Black Cord plants itself into the innocent Beige-like Casing :thumb: .
Welp, I now know Elrick likes interracial porn haha :p
Post by: ctm on Sun, 24 January 2016, 20:45:13
ctm the spacebars are the large spacebars from Unicomp. Those are the only Unicomp ones that fit these keyboards.Thank you!
Your older Model M buckling spring space bars will also fit these keyboards. Model F space bars will not fit as the wire stabilizer does not extend as far.
Post by: Porsche on Sun, 24 January 2016, 21:02:05
Do you have any confirmed date of production? I really want to see them in my hand :p
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 24 January 2016, 21:03:47
Post by: Porsche on Sun, 24 January 2016, 21:09:04
Post by: RyanArr on Mon, 25 January 2016, 12:29:52
Post by: FrostyToast on Mon, 25 January 2016, 12:33:41
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 25 January 2016, 12:54:45
Which options require different hardware (plate, foam, etc)? Just the split right shift? What about the ISO left shift, ISO return, and split backspace? Can all these changes be made by simply moving around springs + buying extra keys?
Correct, split right shift for true HHKB needs the different plate. You can still use a split right shift with the standard plate, but the cap locations will be swapped.
Post by: hashbaz on Mon, 25 January 2016, 13:47:21
Post by: Lurch on Mon, 25 January 2016, 13:52:23
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 25 January 2016, 15:14:46
Yes you only need different hardware for split right shift of the F77/F62. The other variations can all be done with the same hardware (as you mentioned, just with opening it up and moving around flippers and springs).
FrostyToast the early bird round keyboards will ship in April/May, and the regular round goes until the end of July, so yes if you want to wait until August/September to get your keyboard you can wait for reviews to come out in May and place an order in the regular round. There will be that two month period after the early bird keyboards ship that you can still order a keyboard.
What would you be looking for in a review? Do you have any questions or want me to do anything specific to test the prototypes further than what I will show you in my forthcoming test video? If you like Model M and Model F keyboards you will like these. You can see the keyboards in operation in my forthcoming test video. The prototypes have been fully assembled and I will be uploading a video soon testing them out, doing a quick teardown, and testing some other fully restored Model F and Model M keyboards from my collection. Every keyboard sounds different! I was able to type with close to 100% accuracy at around ~100 WPM with the new keyboards, and I have been using them throughout each day over the past few days (including as I make these posts!). There have been no ghost keys or any other random problems with the prototype units - these prototypes could definitely be used as your main keyboards.
Post by: Limewirelord on Mon, 25 January 2016, 15:43:38
Post by: mashby on Mon, 25 January 2016, 15:57:00
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 25 January 2016, 16:08:06
mashby I was looking for 15 to be able to do the early bird round. One unfortunately dropped out so we are at 11 $100 early bird tooling volunteers now. If anyone else is willing to be a volunteer please let me know. Not only do you help out the project and enable people to get their keyboards in April/May instead of August/September, but you also get prioritized in the order that I ship out the keyboards, you get a lower serial number, and you also get your user name on the label inside the keyboard along with all the other major project supporters.
Post by: hashbaz on Mon, 25 January 2016, 16:53:13
hashbaz orders are not yet open - I will let everyone know once they open - it should be very soon!
Whoops, misread the OP. :)
If anyone else is willing to be a volunteer please let me know. Not only do you help out the project and enable people to get their keyboards in April/May instead of August/September, but you also get prioritized in the order that I ship out the keyboards, you get a lower serial number, and you also get your user name on the label inside the keyboard along with all the other major project supporters.
PM'd
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 25 January 2016, 19:05:02
Update on the small case: I posted this reply to one of the questions someone posted on modelfkeyboards.com's Q&A page.
The small case is happening, but not for about a month at least. I have not yet started the prototyping process or determined whether there is enough interest to keep the pricing the same for the smaller case. I will let everyone know on pricing in a few weeks once I get a quote from the factory. The dimensions would be about 12.5 inches wide by 6-7 inches by about an inch tall. These are very approximate estimates. You'd be saving about 1.5 to 2 inches in width and about 1 inch in length. The height would be about the same.
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Mon, 25 January 2016, 20:02:39
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 25 January 2016, 20:19:45
Thanks hashbaz!
Update on the small case: I posted this reply to one of the questions someone posted on modelfkeyboards.com's Q&A page.
You'd be saving about 1.5 to 2 inches in width and about 1 inch in length. The height would be about the same.
Geez, so why bother?
Can't believe a couple of inches extra would hurt these darlings when using this Model-F keyboard, unbelievable :)) .
Stick with the original sizing, it's all GOOD.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Mon, 25 January 2016, 20:58:20
So Ellipse, speaking for myself, one reason to wait on reviews from early birds is to find out about the quality of the fab's work when making multiple units, and another is to have more time to save up for these things.I really like the 2-stage ordering process here. A quick first round for those who are early adopters and willing to tolerate some risk, and a second round to pick up the more cautious of us, as well as those who need to save up. Plus that will allow word-of-mouth to drive up demand after the early bird round, among those who haven't even heard about it yet. I think I'm most interested to see if there might even be a third round. It seems like there is a ton of interest already.
Post by: pchatterjee on Mon, 25 January 2016, 21:01:31
Could you make a board with this type of Model F layout at some point?
http://imgur.com/a/L2FR7
I love the mega large layout.
Post by: fanpeople on Mon, 25 January 2016, 22:00:35
Ellipse:
Could you make a board with this type of Model F layout at some point?
http://imgur.com/a/L2FR7
I love the mega large layout.
Are you in the market for one of those?
Post by: Ir0n on Mon, 25 January 2016, 22:10:51
Ellipse:
Could you make a board with this type of Model F layout at some point?
http://imgur.com/a/L2FR7
I love the mega large layout.
These aren't that hard to find o.o no need to make a new one
Post by: FrostyToast on Mon, 25 January 2016, 22:13:35
Comparison in sound tests with both audio and visualized sound graphs.
A force chart would also be helpful if that is possible to make.
Another additional thing that should be compared would be the miscellaneous physical properties like case construction and innards.
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 25 January 2016, 22:14:37
Post by: fanpeople on Mon, 25 January 2016, 22:18:44
Well obviously we need to compare the original and remake of the model f keyboards directly.
Comparison in sound tests with both audio and visualized sound graphs.
A force chart would also be helpful if that is possible to make.
Another additional thing that should be compared would be the miscellaneous physical properties like case construction and innards.
I can tell you that the F107 that I stripped of paint had burrs and I guess you could call them lacerations under the original paint. The metal also appeared to not be consistent. I think fohat had the painting shop inform him that these were made of a scrap blend of aluminium. So from that perspective Ellipses version should be considered to be of a higher case quality than the originals as I am assuming his version will be using a decent standard of metal.
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 25 January 2016, 22:32:18
Well obviously we need to compare the original and remake of the model f keyboards directly.
Comparison in sound tests with both audio and visualized sound graphs.
A force chart would also be helpful if that is possible to make.
Another additional thing that should be compared would be the miscellaneous physical properties like case construction and innards.
I can tell you that the F107 that I stripped of paint had burrs and I guess you could call them lacerations under the original paint. The metal also appeared to not be consistent. I think fohat had the painting shop inform him that these were made of a scrap blend of aluminium. So from that perspective Ellipses version should be considered to be of a higher case quality than the originals as I am assuming his version will be using a decent standard of metal.
Its not that it is a scrap blend, but the fact that it is cast, and there has been some speculation that it was aluminum or zinc the last I had heard. Cast either of those, can have very inconsistent surface finish in a raw surface.
Post by: Steveenn on Mon, 25 January 2016, 22:41:35
Post by: fanpeople on Mon, 25 January 2016, 22:46:58
Well obviously we need to compare the original and remake of the model f keyboards directly.
Comparison in sound tests with both audio and visualized sound graphs.
A force chart would also be helpful if that is possible to make.
Another additional thing that should be compared would be the miscellaneous physical properties like case construction and innards.
I can tell you that the F107 that I stripped of paint had burrs and I guess you could call them lacerations under the original paint. The metal also appeared to not be consistent. I think fohat had the painting shop inform him that these were made of a scrap blend of aluminium. So from that perspective Ellipses version should be considered to be of a higher case quality than the originals as I am assuming his version will be using a decent standard of metal.
Its not that it is a scrap blend, but the fact that it is cast, and there has been some speculation that it was aluminum or zinc the last I had heard. Cast either of those, can have very inconsistent surface finish in a raw surface.
That would be the reason then because it was not pretty under the paint that is for sure. The gouges and jaggard bits of metal were quite large
Post by: Melvang on Mon, 25 January 2016, 22:53:41
Well obviously we need to compare the original and remake of the model f keyboards directly.
Comparison in sound tests with both audio and visualized sound graphs.
A force chart would also be helpful if that is possible to make.
Another additional thing that should be compared would be the miscellaneous physical properties like case construction and innards.
I can tell you that the F107 that I stripped of paint had burrs and I guess you could call them lacerations under the original paint. The metal also appeared to not be consistent. I think fohat had the painting shop inform him that these were made of a scrap blend of aluminium. So from that perspective Ellipses version should be considered to be of a higher case quality than the originals as I am assuming his version will be using a decent standard of metal.
Its not that it is a scrap blend, but the fact that it is cast, and there has been some speculation that it was aluminum or zinc the last I had heard. Cast either of those, can have very inconsistent surface finish in a raw surface.
That would be the reason then because it was not pretty under the paint that is for sure. The gouges and jaggard bits of metal were quite large
Could have been a cold pour as well, and then paint to cover the imperfections.
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Mon, 25 January 2016, 22:57:47
How long until opting in for providing funds for the early bird tooling ends? My next paycheck isn't until the 3rd of February, but I think that'll be too late.
Post by: fanpeople on Mon, 25 January 2016, 22:59:42
Well obviously we need to compare the original and remake of the model f keyboards directly.
Comparison in sound tests with both audio and visualized sound graphs.
A force chart would also be helpful if that is possible to make.
Another additional thing that should be compared would be the miscellaneous physical properties like case construction and innards.
I can tell you that the F107 that I stripped of paint had burrs and I guess you could call them lacerations under the original paint. The metal also appeared to not be consistent. I think fohat had the painting shop inform him that these were made of a scrap blend of aluminium. So from that perspective Ellipses version should be considered to be of a higher case quality than the originals as I am assuming his version will be using a decent standard of metal.
Its not that it is a scrap blend, but the fact that it is cast, and there has been some speculation that it was aluminum or zinc the last I had heard. Cast either of those, can have very inconsistent surface finish in a raw surface.
That would be the reason then because it was not pretty under the paint that is for sure. The gouges and jaggard bits of metal were quite large
Could have been a cold pour as well, and then paint to cover the imperfections.
I think they probebly just pumped them out knowing that the paint would cover those bits i mean it was quite good with the paint eventhough the coat was worn.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 25 January 2016, 23:40:12
Every Model F keyboard and Model M keyboard in my collection sounds noticeably different - the goal of this project was not to exactly reproduce the sound of any one Model F keyboard, but I feel that these new Model F keyboards are truly in line with and deserve the moniker of a Model F keyboard as I posted earlier.
Muffinbottoms that is fine with me - you have until the end of February to place an early bird order. For being an early bird tooling volunteer, please let me know as soon as possible but that's fine if you want to wait until early February to place your order.
Steveen my video compares the sound of an F107 example to the new production units. It's really something to have a completely new Model F keyboard that will serve you well for many years and decades to come (hopefully). The older units' springs and other parts may start to corrode or lose their springiness in the decades to come. Many of them have developed a more "muffled" sound over the decades for some reason.
This is an early preview of the video - orders are still not yet open but will be very soon!
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 26 January 2016, 00:03:36
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 26 January 2016, 00:13:53
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 26 January 2016, 00:18:57
The new F62/F77 springs will have the same actuation force as the originals. The factory has a spring testing machine and has agreed to keep all springs within IBM's original tolerances, which are about three times narrower than with today's Model M's. They tested various original Model F springs to help determine the correct starting point. Of course brand new springs are slightly stiffer, even on originals, and take a little time to loosen up.
Sounds good. With my F restoration services thread, I am planning on ordering a good sized sum of spring/hammer assemblies and some barrels for modifications and possible broken barrels, and was worried that there would be a noticeable feel difference for replacing a couple rusted original springs.
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Tue, 26 January 2016, 00:30:17
Muffinbottoms that is fine with me - you have until the end of February to place an early bird order. For being an early bird tooling volunteer, please let me know as soon as possible but that's fine if you want to wait until early February to place your order.
Yeah haha I wanted to try and help out with the early tooling. Alrighty! Lemme crunch some numbers and see if I can't chip in, although I think we would still be short two people right :c?
Post by: Techno Trousers on Tue, 26 January 2016, 00:57:26
Post by: Air tree on Tue, 26 January 2016, 01:07:21
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/PRK
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 26 January 2016, 07:20:48
Post by: ImAWildDeer on Tue, 26 January 2016, 10:52:04
I picked their dark blue color. You can see their Industrial SSK caps installed on the F77 on modelfkeyboards.com
Ellipse, does this mean orders are open on that site?
Post by: pchatterjee on Tue, 26 January 2016, 14:30:33
Ellipse:
Could you make a board with this type of Model F layout at some point?
http://imgur.com/a/L2FR7
I love the mega large layout.
Are you in the market for one of those?
I would be in the market for one of those but I would want it NIB (I would be shocked if that were possible) or something thats fully restored.
I would really like a modernized version for the F107 like ellipse is doing for the F77. I personally really like full sized keyboards far more than other types -- hence I will get the F77 instead of the F62. A properly restored or modernized F107 would be great.
Post by: againer on Tue, 26 January 2016, 15:36:15
Thanks hashbaz!
Update on the small case: I posted this reply to one of the questions someone posted on modelfkeyboards.com's Q&A page.
The small case is happening, but not for about a month at least. I have not yet started the prototyping process or determined whether there is enough interest to keep the pricing the same for the smaller case. I will let everyone know on pricing in a few weeks once I get a quote from the factory. The dimensions would be about 12.5 inches wide by 6-7 inches by about an inch tall. These are very approximate estimates. You'd be saving about 1.5 to 2 inches in width and about 1 inch in length. The height would be about the same.
Will it be possible to just change the case if you buy the original case, and in the second run just the small case, or are some changes made to the other parts too?
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Tue, 26 January 2016, 15:45:34
Of course there is the aspect of simply wanting to support the community's efforts, and I would never try to undermine this or question that notion. I'm not intending to make everything about money and stir up anything there, I'm just genuinely curious about this, as it's a big struggle for me. I want to support the project, but I'd like to know more. And to be entirely honest, the events that unfolded after discovering the F77 don't instill the highest degree of confidence regarding this subject.
I hope I'm not stepping on any toes or going out of line here, I am truly and genuinely interested in this project succeeding. :thumb:
Post by: Limewirelord on Tue, 26 January 2016, 16:18:15
Limewirelord yes there will be an early bird round with orders accepted in February, and then a regular round from March through the end of July. The question is can you really wait until August/September to get your made-to-order keyboard :)Sounds like a better timeline for most group buys if that's a 2 month turnaround time form July to September ;D I can wait if I have to especially if that means there's a possibility for a smaller case :p
mashby I was looking for 15 to be able to do the early bird round. One unfortunately dropped out so we are at 11 $100 early bird tooling volunteers now. If anyone else is willing to be a volunteer please let me know. Not only do you help out the project and enable people to get their keyboards in April/May instead of August/September, but you also get prioritized in the order that I ship out the keyboards, you get a lower serial number, and you also get your user name on the label inside the keyboard along with all the other major project supporters.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 26 January 2016, 17:39:11
againer yes it will be possible to change the case if you want to downsize for the second round. Just the case and the bottom inner assembly (a $20 part) would be needed - the rest of the parts will be identical most likely.
Hoffman - The early bird tooling volunteers are helping pay the project's tooling costs for an additional, earlier round to get their keyboards in April/May instead of August September. Their payment also benefits them in other ways, including getting their keyboard tested and shipped out to them earlier than everyone else in the round - this could mean up to maybe a month earlier as I am testing every unit one by one before it goes out and that could take a long time. Tooling involves the cost in labor to set up everything needed for production and of setting up the machines that make a product. Once my run is done, they will re-tool the machine to make something else. You may be thinking of molds specifically, which can be used at a later point in time - not the reason for the tooling volunteers.
Limewirelord-yes production is expected to take about a month, as the factory needs to do their tooling (adjusting the machines and their configuration to be set up to make these parts) and then do the production run and product assembly. Then sea mail shipping will take 2-4 weeks from China to me. The early bird round will also take about a month for production and 2-4 weeks for shipping to me.
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Tue, 26 January 2016, 17:53:50
Hoffman - The early bird tooling volunteers are helping pay the project's tooling costs for an additional, earlier round to get their keyboards in April/May instead of August September. Their payment also benefits them in other ways, including getting their keyboard tested and shipped out to them earlier than everyone else in the round - this could mean up to maybe a month earlier as I am testing every unit one by one before it goes out and that could take a long time. Tooling involves the cost in labor to set up everything needed for production and of setting up the machines that make a product.
Thank you for the response, that explains things really well. And the below is the key factor that I was missing - makes perfect sense, thanks again for clarifying. :thumb:
Once my run is done, they will re-tool the machine to make something else. You may be thinking of molds specifically, which can be used at a later point in time - not the reason for the tooling volunteers.
I am currently on the fence about early birding - have you mentioned a time frame that we would need to decide by? Sorry if I missed it somewhere.
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Tue, 26 January 2016, 18:01:32
Once my run is done, they will re-tool the machine to make something else. You may be thinking of molds specifically, which can be used at a later point in time - not the reason for the tooling volunteers.
I am currently on the fence about early birding - have you mentioned a time frame that we would need to decide by? Sorry if I missed it somewhere.
Muffinbottoms that is fine with me - you have until the end of February to place an early bird order. For being an early bird tooling volunteer, please let me know as soon as possible but that's fine if you want to wait until early February to place your order.
not a concrete answer, but the most relevant one I found.
Post by: hashbaz on Tue, 26 January 2016, 19:16:41
Hoffman - The early bird tooling volunteers are helping pay the project's tooling costs for an additional, earlier round
Why is there a separate early round at all? Will adjustments be made to the main round based on the early round?
Post by: FrostyToast on Tue, 26 January 2016, 19:20:41
Hoffman - The early bird tooling volunteers are helping pay the project's tooling costs for an additional, earlier round
Why is there a separate early round at all? Will adjustments be made to the main round based on the early round?
One major benefit is that we can get in a lot of reviews from community members before the main run.
This means that anyone unsure of this project can wait until some reviews come out to see if the board is worth it's salt.
If there are any manufacturing flaws or defects that haven't been caught those can also be resolved.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 26 January 2016, 21:00:11
hashbaz, Frosty is right with some of the benefits of the early round. The early rounders will not be guinea pigs but will be receiving individually tested products based off the design of the working prototype I am typing on now :). There will likely not be adjustments made after the early round - I spent close to five figures making prototypes and recently uploaded a video of them working 100%. I'll be making small adjustments based on these prototypes (including the one I'm using now - the F77 is my personal preference) and those adjustments will be reflected in the early bird round.
The reason for an early bird round costing extra is that there is a tooling charge each time you place an order for parts. It is a charge for setting up their production lines/machines. To get the price down to $325 I was going to pay for one production run. The tooling charge is for each part so it does add up.
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Tue, 26 January 2016, 21:11:35
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 26 January 2016, 21:14:41
Please head to www.ModelFkeyboards.com (http://www.ModelFkeyboards.com) to place your order!
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 26 January 2016, 21:37:31
If you want to go split right shift, you'd need a split right shift top inner assembly, split right shift PCB, split right shift inside foam, and a few extra keys: Backspace (| \ sized key), caps lock style Shift Key, 1U key with "Fn" legend for the function key, ctrl/caps lock switched legend keys, a 1U | \ key, and maybe another one I forgot about?
If you don't want to have to reassemble each keyboard every time you switch layouts, you can also order just an extra fully assembled inner assembly.
Post by: Karura on Tue, 26 January 2016, 21:42:13
All this money and time poured into the project, but an imperfect solution for the HHKB style shift + fn. :(
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 26 January 2016, 21:52:31
Is it not possible to have a proper short right shift made that is not stepped like the capslock?
All this money and time poured into the project, but an imperfect solution for the HHKB style shift + fn. :(
No, Unicomp does not make a full touch 1.75 unit key.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Tue, 26 January 2016, 21:53:34
Is it not possible to have a proper short right shift made that is not stepped like the capslock?I don't consider that a limitation of the project. The issue is Unicomp, and the fact that they have a de facto monopoly on BS key sets in the world. Because there is no competition, we have no leverage to get them to create a non-stepped key in that size, or produce more of the right full size shift in blank black, or a host of other things that would be nice.
All this money and time poured into the project, but an imperfect solution for the HHKB style shift + fn. :(
I was just talking with my friend at lunch. If I had a big nest egg of money what I would want to do is buy the equipment and learn how to make great BS caps and sell them at a decent price, at MOST what the custom Cherry sets sell for. Dyesub PBT, double shot ABS. Heck, maybe even double shot PBT! Capacitive buckling spring is the best switch ever, but the keycap options are frankly quite sad.
Post by: Karura on Tue, 26 January 2016, 21:55:47
I take that it would cost too much to request them to create new tooling for the proper full-touch short right shift. Did we try to communicate with Unicomp and see what they have to say?
Another question, I see that the Fn 1u key for the HHKB layout is white, will it be the same colour as the modifiers in the final run to match it?
Post by: Jedi on Tue, 26 January 2016, 21:56:04
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 26 January 2016, 22:01:33
I understand the project is great, I am too strictly talking about Unicomp.
I take that it would cost too much to request them to create new tooling for the proper full-touch short right shift. Did we try to communicate with Unicomp and see what they have to say?
Another question, I see that the Fn 1u key for the HHKB layout is white, will it be the same colour as the modifiers in the final run to match it?
Molds for this would likely be in the realm of $10,000. With the complexity of the cavity, tolerances required for both the cap dimensions, and injection molds in general. This is to be on top of the time investment for someone to draw up the CAD files. Remember, Unicomp has not done any CAD for caps. They simply bought the tooling and are riding on those. Chances are they got CAD files for molds so as to be able to buy replacements, but creating new files is an entirely new aspect. Yes they have done cad work for new cases after purchasing from Lexmark/IBM, but cases are relatively simple with very little in the need for tolerances compared to the tolerances needed for BS caps.
Post by: Ir0n on Tue, 26 January 2016, 22:11:03
Post by: potatowire on Tue, 26 January 2016, 22:14:40
Post by: Jedi on Tue, 26 January 2016, 22:15:58
Post by: Ir0n on Tue, 26 January 2016, 22:28:32
Post by: potatowire on Tue, 26 January 2016, 22:43:59
Post by: dohbot on Tue, 26 January 2016, 22:45:31
Post by: Techno Trousers on Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:43:53
But then the sound it makes when it types is so good! Oh my goodness. :O
Forget the sound, it's the sensory experience through your fingertips that's the true luxury. I've tried all the mechanical switches, and nothing beats capacitive buckling spring for pure typing feel.
Post by: aznairjordan on Tue, 26 January 2016, 23:53:17
Post by: KetchyKech on Wed, 27 January 2016, 00:06:03
As for keys, I'm not too certain I want to stay with "regular color blank keys (no lettering/legends).
are the brilliant white / blue legend keys printed keys from unicomp's site an option?
Thanks man! :p
i am excite.
Post by: ccc24 on Wed, 27 January 2016, 00:23:23
Post by: Vizir on Wed, 27 January 2016, 00:27:53
Post by: FrostyToast on Wed, 27 January 2016, 00:29:17
I hope you get some sort of kickback from this group buy. :thumb:
Post by: Ludovician on Wed, 27 January 2016, 00:42:05
Ellipse, why does one of the item description say that the hhkb layout for f77 will require some modification to xwhatsits controller? Have you got a photo or image of what the hhkb with split backpace looks like?
By HHKB-style, it means split shift, like the F77 here:
http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/F62-F77-1024x457.jpg
Split backspace has two 1u keys instead of the 2u backspace.
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 27 January 2016, 00:54:12
Post by: Air tree on Wed, 27 January 2016, 01:04:03
:(
Post by: Vizir on Wed, 27 January 2016, 01:09:13
I know what hhkb style is. There is another option with hhkb style split shift and split backpace...Ellipse, why does one of the item description say that the hhkb layout for f77 will require some modification to xwhatsits controller? Have you got a photo or image of what the hhkb with split backpace looks like?
By HHKB-style, it means split shift, like the F77 here:
http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/F62-F77-1024x457.jpg
Split backspace has two 1u keys instead of the 2u backspace.
Post by: naasfu on Wed, 27 January 2016, 01:14:44
I'm sad about keycaps so I'm just going to get a regular traditional f62 layout.
I went with the traditional layout as well. Having a stepped right shift would drive me nuts.
Try out SpaceFN as an alternative. It works pretty well. :)
ps. i ordered an f62 in industrial grey + trad layout, plus some extra keys.
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Wed, 27 January 2016, 01:25:03
I think that's what I'm gonna do, but now I have to message ellipse to change my order xD
I need that merdered out setup!!!
Post by: Bevo on Wed, 27 January 2016, 01:26:30
$89 shipping to Australia really kills it
Post by: Ludovician on Wed, 27 January 2016, 01:30:26
I know what hhkb style is. There is another option with hhkb style split shift and split backpace...Ellipse, why does one of the item description say that the hhkb layout for f77 will require some modification to xwhatsits controller? Have you got a photo or image of what the hhkb with split backpace looks like?
By HHKB-style, it means split shift, like the F77 here:
http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/F62-F77-1024x457.jpg
Split backspace has two 1u keys instead of the 2u backspace.
Right, so one of the options has the split shift but normal backspace and the other has the split shift with split backspace.
Post by: Karura on Wed, 27 January 2016, 01:30:33
Post by: fanpeople on Wed, 27 January 2016, 01:31:05
I really wanted this board but came to realise that 658AUD is just too much for me.
$89 shipping to Australia really kills it
We could vombine shipping for two or more boards and bring it down
Post by: Bevo on Wed, 27 January 2016, 01:40:40
I really wanted this board but came to realise that 658AUD is just too much for me.
$89 shipping to Australia really kills it
We could vombine shipping for two or more boards and bring it down
I'd be up for that. Depends how much we save though and we need to find out how much domestic shipping will cost as well
Post by: fanpeople on Wed, 27 January 2016, 01:42:27
the more australians and if ellipse is ok with it the cheaper it should be. As i am happy to do the division and resent whilst still paying an equal amount. I will do a little research tonight.I really wanted this board but came to realise that 658AUD is just too much for me.
$89 shipping to Australia really kills it
We could vombine shipping for two or more boards and bring it down
I'd be up for that. Depends how much we save though and we need to find out how much domestic shipping will cost as well
Post by: Bevo on Wed, 27 January 2016, 01:44:20
Fantastic. Let me know mate!the more australians and if ellipse is ok with it the cheaper it should be. As i am happy to do the division and resent whilst still paying an equal amount. I will do a little research tonight.I really wanted this board but came to realise that 658AUD is just too much for me.
$89 shipping to Australia really kills it
We could vombine shipping for two or more boards and bring it down
I'd be up for that. Depends how much we save though and we need to find out how much domestic shipping will cost as well
Post by: Ludovician on Wed, 27 January 2016, 02:15:14
Post by: bocahgundul on Wed, 27 January 2016, 02:28:14
So we can't get tax for it
Edit: Grammar nazi
Post by: Ludovician on Wed, 27 January 2016, 02:32:14
Post by: simingma on Wed, 27 January 2016, 02:34:28
FrostyToast I have put together a video with a typing test and a comparison of different Model F and M keyboards. Please keep in mind that these are prototypes adjusted with hand tools because some measurements were off - they will not sound like the finalized production units.
Every Model F keyboard and Model M keyboard in my collection sounds noticeably different - the goal of this project was not to exactly reproduce the sound of any one Model F keyboard, but I feel that these new Model F keyboards are truly in line with and deserve the moniker of a Model F keyboard as I posted earlier.
Muffinbottoms that is fine with me - you have until the end of February to place an early bird order. For being an early bird tooling volunteer, please let me know as soon as possible but that's fine if you want to wait until early February to place your order.
Steveen my video compares the sound of an F107 example to the new production units. It's really something to have a completely new Model F keyboard that will serve you well for many years and decades to come (hopefully). The older units' springs and other parts may start to corrode or lose their springiness in the decades to come. Many of them have developed a more "muffled" sound over the decades for some reason.
This is an early preview of the video - orders are still not yet open but will be very soon!
Beautifully engineered! Congrats!! Cannot wait to place my order!!!
Can really tell the differences comparing with your 107 keys towards the end of the recording, where those pingings were so profound. The prototypes sounded so much more in control and precise.
I do find my particular 107 has a somewhat "lighter" feel in comparison with my other ATs and 122s. But knowing that my findings were only attributed to my unique collection, where would you rate the prototype's stiffness/lightness against your other Fs? During this still early unbroken-in period?
Many thanks!!!
Post by: fanpeople on Wed, 27 January 2016, 03:01:48
Ellipse would you be able to provide these details. Also are you just using the usps calculator?
It would be approximately 35 AUD give or take for domestic so long as no one lives somewhere stupidly remote like Pilbara. This is working off 40 x 30 x 20 at 5kgs
From what I have looked at so far I think we might just be ****ed with regard to postage.
I am happy proxy to everyone in Australia if it would make it cheaper but I think that any slapped on import fees would eat up the savings at such a small qty.
Post by: Ludovician on Wed, 27 January 2016, 03:43:11
Box Dimensions (approx.): 50 x 30 x 8 cm (F77), 45 x 30 x 8 cm (F62)
I ended up deciding not to do it because I'm not sure we'd even save any money.
Let's say the keyboard is $350 USD, and roughly convert that to 500 AUD.
Edit: Just remembered they're $325, but I'll leave it as it to account for extras people are buying.
$50 tax
$17-$35 domestic shipping
A share of the cost to get the bulk parcel to Australia
A share of the import fee (almost negligible)
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 27 January 2016, 07:09:51
Can you ship the board as a 50$ value?
So we can't get tax for it
Edit: Grammar nazi
Was also wondering about this, tax is gonna be epic.
Post by: stoic-lemon on Wed, 27 January 2016, 07:53:09
Post by: ctm on Wed, 27 January 2016, 07:56:06
Post by: mobbo on Wed, 27 January 2016, 08:03:38
Post by: keshley on Wed, 27 January 2016, 08:08:21
Post by: againer on Wed, 27 January 2016, 08:20:05
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/CTCL
Post by: user 18 on Wed, 27 January 2016, 08:38:39
wouldnt this caps lock key match the hhkb layout or is it in a difrent size?
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/CTCL
That is a 1.75u ctrl key (stepped) and a 1.5u caps lock (non-stepped). The caps lock would be smaller than the space.
What shipping option do we pick for shipping to Canada? I only see options for US, Europe/Asia, and Aus.
Post by: cjhard on Wed, 27 January 2016, 09:25:22
Gib me a few days to pay rent, but I'm totes going poor for the black F62 w/ regular color blanks mostly to keep the springs in place on shipment, ISO enter because I like my backslash accessible, and bolt-on rubber bumpers.
Post by: pchatterjee on Wed, 27 January 2016, 10:16:04
Ellipse -- I wanted to white keys with blue modifiers like on some of your SSKs on your website if possible.
Sent you a note if you can do you a titanium grey/silver type paint.
Post by: ImAWildDeer on Wed, 27 January 2016, 10:35:37
Post by: jevvix on Wed, 27 January 2016, 10:38:54
Post by: R4WBIT on Wed, 27 January 2016, 13:29:36
Post by: ctm on Wed, 27 January 2016, 14:18:07
wouldnt this caps lock key match the hhkb layout or is it in a difrent size?In fact Unicomp does have 1.75 unit non-stepped shift key. You can see that in Unicomp's 106 key Japanese layout, but Unicomp only sells it with the entire set, not as an individual cap.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/CTCL
Post by: romevi on Wed, 27 January 2016, 14:25:35
wouldnt this caps lock key match the hhkb layout or is it in a difrent size?In fact Unicomp does have 1.75 unit non-stepped shift key. You can see that in Unicomp's 106 key Japanese layout, but Unicomp only sells it with the entire set, not as an individual cap.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/CTCL
And I'm assuming that's only in beige?
Post by: ctm on Wed, 27 January 2016, 16:19:39
It's more of a grey color. Unicomp calls it "pebble". Same color as regular modifiers.wouldnt this caps lock key match the hhkb layout or is it in a difrent size?In fact Unicomp does have 1.75 unit non-stepped shift key. You can see that in Unicomp's 106 key Japanese layout, but Unicomp only sells it with the entire set, not as an individual cap.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/CTCL
And I'm assuming that's only in beige?
(Image from Unicomp)
Post by: romevi on Wed, 27 January 2016, 16:28:43
It's more of a grey color. Unicomp calls it "pebble". Same color as regular modifiers.wouldnt this caps lock key match the hhkb layout or is it in a difrent size?In fact Unicomp does have 1.75 unit non-stepped shift key. You can see that in Unicomp's 106 key Japanese layout, but Unicomp only sells it with the entire set, not as an individual cap.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/CTCL
And I'm assuming that's only in beige?
(Image from Unicomp)
Ah, yes. But that's more beige than normal gray, as they also have a gray that they use for the standard caps on the black-cased boards. Would like a gray one as I plan on using a black case with white alphas and gray modifiers. :cool:
Post by: Pemdas on Wed, 27 January 2016, 18:43:45
Oh and sent you a PM with a couple questions about the ordering process Ellipse :thumb:
*Edit: Order placed! F62 with split shift and split backspace in beige! Thanks again Ellipse!
Post by: Limewirelord on Wed, 27 January 2016, 19:02:04
Post by: U47 on Wed, 27 January 2016, 21:09:53
Are there going to be any custom keycap colors with dyesubs? I know there are some custom keycap colors for buckling springs lying around on the internet somewhere but I'm not sure how feasible this will be. Getting some repros of those sweet bright blue caps from the SSKs would be a cool thing to see.
I'm curious about this exact thing. A couple of those bright blue keycaps would be just perfect for a faux Industrial SSK. For the HHKB layout, maybe in the 2, 3, and Fn spots?
Edit: http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/industrial-ssk-blue-keys/
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 27 January 2016, 21:21:03
Post by: romevi on Wed, 27 January 2016, 21:32:37
Are there going to be any custom keycap colors with dyesubs? I know there are some custom keycap colors for buckling springs lying around on the internet somewhere but I'm not sure how feasible this will be. Getting some repros of those sweet bright blue caps from the SSKs would be a cool thing to see.
It's all up to the Unicomp. Ellipse is sourcing the caps from Unicomp, nothing more, nothing less. If we can get Unicomp to make custom caps, then someone better get on that!
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Wed, 27 January 2016, 21:42:13
Gah I'm paralyzed by choices haha. Color choice, keycap choice, size choice, layout choice....Nice!!! I went with all black and split backspace key... I'm gonna make my right ctrl the fn key... should work out pretty good!!!
Oh and sent you a PM with a couple questions about the ordering process Ellipse :thumb:
*Edit: Order placed! F62 with split shift and split backspace in beige! Thanks again Ellipse!
Post by: scumyc on Wed, 27 January 2016, 21:45:33
Here are some cell phone pics of it next to a unicomp 1u:
[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]
Unfortunately, the cap wiggles a bit when it is on the stem. You can see the stem doesn't quite sit the whole way down. It is not enough that I think the cap would come off if you mashed the key, but it is a tad annoying. Overall I think I would probably use a stepped 1.75 over this, which is too bad :(.
Post by: ccc24 on Wed, 27 January 2016, 22:48:30
Oh man oh man oh man it's live!
Gib me a few days to pay rent, but I'm totes going poor for the black F62 w/ regular color blanks mostly to keep the springs in place on shipment, ISO enter because I like my backslash accessible, and bolt-on rubber bumpers.
just curious, but why would blanks hold the springs in place better than say the printed ones?
Post by: Ludovician on Wed, 27 January 2016, 22:52:06
Post by: Pemdas on Wed, 27 January 2016, 22:53:28
Nice!!! I went with all black and split backspace key... I'm gonna make my right ctrl the fn key... should work out pretty good!!!
I was really tempted to go with all black... now I'm second guessing my choice :p
Did you get the case in black too?
Post by: raymogi on Wed, 27 January 2016, 23:36:50
Post by: Ludovician on Wed, 27 January 2016, 23:50:23
Also got a pebble/pearl set to go on it, which should look pretty good with a black case as well.
Post by: romevi on Thu, 28 January 2016, 00:02:45
This next month is a tight month so I'm trying to prioritize things.
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Thu, 28 January 2016, 00:02:55
oh yeah and I'm gonna go with the blank RGB mods from unicomp!!!Nice!!! I went with all black and split backspace key... I'm gonna make my right ctrl the fn key... should work out pretty good!!!
I was really tempted to go with all black... now I'm second guessing my choice :p
Did you get the case in black too?
I think that will look solid and hopefully someday uni will get black blanks back in stock... :-\
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 28 January 2016, 00:12:56
This next month is a tight month so I'm trying to prioritize things.
Just loosen every aperture for some severe servicing sunshine, because you have to work hard for this keyboard and appreciate all the sacrifice that goes into owning one of them ;D .
Post by: Jedi on Thu, 28 January 2016, 00:24:12
Just loosen every aperture for some severe servicing sunshine, because you have to work hard for this keyboard and appreciate all the sacrifice that goes into owning one of them ;D .
There is too much goodness here and what with all the stuff coming out by both keycap designers and board makers, I've pretty much given up on any hope for Sir Wallet. RIP little buddy. :p
Post by: ImAWildDeer on Thu, 28 January 2016, 00:26:48
Post by: fanpeople on Thu, 28 January 2016, 00:36:22
Oh man oh man oh man it's live!
Gib me a few days to pay rent, but I'm totes going poor for the black F62 w/ regular color blanks mostly to keep the springs in place on shipment, ISO enter because I like my backslash accessible, and bolt-on rubber bumpers.
just curious, but why would blanks hold the springs in place better than say the printed ones?
I think he means as opposed to having the board shipped without any caps at all
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 28 January 2016, 00:57:12
Industrial gray, black, and beige are the main offerings for both the F77 and F62. No extra charge for any of those three powdercoated case colors.
Karura a forum member has created a 3D printed non-stepped short shift key and sells it on Shapeways.
scumnc just posted his findings earlier in this thread.
http://www.shapeways.com/product/YMFXWFRAK/ibm-model-m-keycap-1-75-non-stepped-v2?optionId=40367439
Yes Karura I asked Unicomp about that key and they only sell it with the full JIS key cap set. I'd imagine they are using old stock and no longer have molds for that key size; otherwise they could set up the old mold, no?
Karura the cases will be made of zinc or aluminum (most likely zinc). They will likely be cast from molds as opposed to the CNC milled aluminum prototype cases.
potatowire local pickup would be in Manhattan. The tooling volunteers pay for everyone's ability to get in on the early bird round without paying anything above the regular prices for everything.
An announcement that thanks to one extra generous tooling volunteer, we have the needed funds to go ahead with the early bird round (assuming no one drops out of volunteering).
dohbot, it may be possible to add RGB lighting to your F77 and F62 if interested. I know that PhosphorGlow was able to successfully add lighting to Model M keyboards, which means it should be possible for this keyboard. The case has plenty of room if you needed to add some kind of lighting controller.
KetchyKech yes you can order brilliant white keys instead - please PM me if you'd like to do that and I will update your order.
Sorry vizir that info was out of date and I have fixed it on the "Extra PCB" product page (did you see it anywhere else?). All PCBs and keyboards include the controller. The controller is likely going to be factory soldered onto the main capacitive PCB by a ribbon cable. At one point I was thinking of soldering just the F77 and having a controller on the same PCB for all the others, but I have since moved to put all the controllers on a separate board to allow for future, more compact case designs for the F62 and F77 that a number of people asked me about. Sorry no photo with the split backspace. Check out an unmodified PC AT keyboard for approximately how it would look.
simingma the F77/F62's are on par with my other little-used Model F keyboards. The factory tested an average of a wide variety of sample Model F springs I had around and determined the average force, which they have successfully created springs within a narrow tolerance range of that force, so that the new Model F keyboards will require the same force as the originals. Now if you had a really worn out Model F in comparison these would be a little stiffer as all springs loosen up as they are used.
ImAWildDeer you can use a black caps lock and 1U key in place of the right shift (these are included if you order a black set). Also Unicomp usually includes a right shift key that's not black if you order the black set. Alternatively you can take their right shift key and dye it black - not sure it would be a perfect match with their black though.
jevvix yes you can contact me to talk about springs. This is not confirmed but I hope to include a number of extra springs at no extra charge with everyone's order. I expect to continue using high quality Japanese steel springs (like the prototypes) of a steel that is also used to make piano wire. But since this is a brand new project and the springs are not time-tested, I don't know how long they will last under usage.
R4WBIT they ship from NY.
U47 and Limewirelord I offer Industrial SSK custom dyesub keys because Unicomp still makes them and they will do a run of as little as one set for someone. They are darker in keycap color which makes the legends slightly less easy to read. Here's what they look like on a keyboard: http://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/industrial-ssk-blue-keys/
romevi yes there will be the early group (all orders up to the end of February get into the early group) and the regular group buy runs from March through the end of July.
ccc24/cjhard/fanpeople you are right that you will likely need to re-seat some keycaps and/or springs when your brand new Model F arrives. All that rough handling during shipping necessitates this in my experience.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Vizir on Thu, 28 January 2016, 01:31:31
Post by: Pemdas on Thu, 28 January 2016, 01:39:07
I was gonna go all black too but I'm thinking of what to do with the right shift. And yeah I went with split backspace as well.
(http://i.imgur.com/SnRrsgp.jpg)
My SSK has known the pain of the missing black blank right shift for a while now :C
I've heard some people had good results with dying them though
oh yeah and I'm gonna go with the blank RGB mods from unicomp!!!
I think that will look solid and hopefully someday uni will get black blanks back in stock... :-\
That's a good plan, will probably look really nice :thumb:
I'm kinda contemplating ordering another case in black so I can have both....
Another quick question, can you have a split backspace with full right shift layout?
Post by: Zapheo on Thu, 28 January 2016, 01:56:47
Post by: joneslee85 on Thu, 28 January 2016, 02:07:40
I plan to buy 2 keyboards, 1 for me and 1 for a friend and it does _save up_ shipping fee. So if you are interested in getting one, we could combine to save more. I could place the order on your behalf and the keyboard then will be picked up by you in Melbourne CBD area.
PM me
Post by: ika on Thu, 28 January 2016, 02:09:57
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 28 January 2016, 06:49:39
Post by: romevi on Thu, 28 January 2016, 07:48:03
Post by: ctm on Thu, 28 January 2016, 08:11:35
Karura the cases will be made of zinc or aluminum (most likely zinc). They will likely be cast from molds as opposed to the CNC milled aluminum prototype cases.What's the difference between cast zinc and CNC aluminum?
Post by: bocahgundul on Thu, 28 January 2016, 09:06:30
I think the cast one is better? but I don't know just my assumption :pKarura the cases will be made of zinc or aluminum (most likely zinc). They will likely be cast from molds as opposed to the CNC milled aluminum prototype cases.What's the difference between cast zinc and CNC aluminum?
Post by: ImAWildDeer on Thu, 28 January 2016, 10:38:47
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Thu, 28 January 2016, 11:15:21
Does anyone have any pictures of what the split backspace and right shift would look like on a kish? I went full ANSI, but now I'm second guessing myself.This is mine. I have a normal shift though.
(http://i.imgur.com/LypgKhf.jpg)
Post by: againer on Thu, 28 January 2016, 17:53:54
Since there is not so much demand for a smaller f62 case. Will they be CNC aluminium? Zinc will be heavier. And so less atractive to carry around.
Can you tell something about the weight the keyboard has in its current configuration?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 28 January 2016, 18:01:12
Zapheo you have plenty of time to decide :) The order window doesn't close until 2/29.
ika please PM me to change your order, once you have finalized your decision on the change!
romevi the difference in the runs will be when your keyboard arrives - April/May (early bird) or August/September (expected - regular round). Pricing is not any higher for the early bird round so I don't think it's a good idea to have to wait more than half a year from now for your keyboard :)
ctm zinc and aluminum are just different types of metal. zinc is a lot denser/heavier, about twice as heavy as aluminum. The early original 4704s were likely zinc or some other dense metal, and the later models with refurbed cases were likely aluminum. Otherwise there's not much difference.
againer the intention is for the smaller case option to cost the same amount as the keyboards with the regular case, assuming there's enough interest. All you'd need to buy extra is the smaller bottom inner assembly and the new case - all the other parts would be compatible.
Yes the smaller cases would likely be aluminum so that they are better for travel. F62 keyboards would probably be 3-5 pounds with the smaller aluminum case.
I have no final stats on the weight but based on my supplier estimations, the total shipping weight would be 10-11 pounds for the F62 and F77 zinc case keyboards (of course the F62 would weigh a little less).
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 29 January 2016, 16:31:21
Would people prefer anodized or powdercoated for the smaller aluminum cases? Is everyone fine with the smaller extruded metal design posted earlier (and re-posted below)? You would be saving about 1 to 2 inches off the sides and about one inch in the controller area.
I also expect to make a removable USB cable option for the extruded aluminum case, either through a cable or through allowing access to the USB connector on the PCB (the former seems like the preferable solution I think?).
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Jedi on Fri, 29 January 2016, 17:49:07
I get that powder coat is traditional, however the anodized is clean and perfect. Definitely +1 for anodized if I had any say to it. Especially on aluminum.
Edit: Never try typing from a smartphone, that looked terrible sorry guys
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 29 January 2016, 17:55:27
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Fri, 29 January 2016, 18:12:45
couldn't you just do hhkb without the split shift and make 1.5 right ctrl your fn key...
I think that's what I'm gonna do, but now I have to message ellipse to change my order xD
I need that merdered out setup!!!
That's how I have mine set up right now and it works really well. :thumb:
Post by: ghostjuggernaut on Fri, 29 January 2016, 18:46:17
Same here. It takes a few mess ups when I switch from my HHKB, but its just as easy.couldn't you just do hhkb without the split shift and make 1.5 right ctrl your fn key...
I think that's what I'm gonna do, but now I have to message ellipse to change my order xD
I need that merdered out setup!!!
That's how I have mine set up right now and it works really well. :thumb:
Post by: Ludovician on Sat, 30 January 2016, 01:17:26
Post by: Ir0n on Sat, 30 January 2016, 13:08:28
Would we be able to switch over to that one once it's done, or would the normal ones already be getting made?
just wondering
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 30 January 2016, 13:28:12
All parts are interchangeable with the regular case and new small case, except for the bottom inner assembly plate ($20) because it needs to be made smaller to fit inside the new smaller case.
Post by: againer on Sat, 30 January 2016, 15:19:11
I would like a black case if that is possible. A detatchable USB cable and I get a modern 60% Buckling Spring Keyboard with some nice switches :)
Does 3-4 Weeks until we can order the little case implies that it could be ready for the first round?
When it comes to the default layou, I would suggest you do think about some kind of Space FN layout. But since I gonna do some individual layout configuration this is not important for myself.
Post by: henz on Sat, 30 January 2016, 15:20:39
Post by: Ludovician on Sat, 30 January 2016, 15:25:08
so i think i want a kish with split right shift, when i select black keys, it says its missing the right shift, does this apply even if i select split right shift layout?
No, you'll get a second capslock key instead, which is used for the rshift in the split layout. What they're missing is the fullsize right shift.
Post by: ika on Sat, 30 January 2016, 16:17:43
Post by: Ludovician on Sat, 30 January 2016, 19:39:47
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 30 January 2016, 21:12:40
Unfortunately PayPal has locked my funds as a security precaution (?) given the $30,000+ that came in from the first few days of accepting orders.
Orders are still being accepted through PayPal without issue, so please do get in your order if you haven't already!
I am going to speak with them ASAP and try to resolve it but this could cause a hassle. I have already fully disclosed to them the product web site, nature of the project, and the increased expected business levels.
It seems like they often release funds only after they are exposed publicly about the specific case and someone has made a noise about the issue by posting about it on a blog.
If anyone has any experience or advice dealing with PayPal or any contacts there, or can offer specific help in another way please let me know.
I don't expect this to put us off schedule though, because at the very worst if it comes down to it, I may need to cancel the PayPal funds and accept payments over credit card or check (your order is not being canceled! This is just the worst-case scenario). It will be inconvenient for everyone unfortunately if this turns out to be the case but we don't have to use PayPal to accept payment online. I'll keep everyone posted though.
So far about 25% of the interest form has paid and many have ordered more keyboards than what they put down in the form - a good thing! The web site has slowed down from the increased traffic but it is still holding up well.
Yep henz Ludovician is right.
againer I can't say for sure that the small case will be ready for the first round. Chinese New Year is a big holiday where the factory will take about 2 weeks off starting around 2/4. I hope to talk to them this week before then but I'm not sure how far I will get. I submitted the small case CAD draft files a couple weeks ago but they have not gotten their engineers to look at it closely just yet to my knowledge.
Post by: riotonthebay on Sat, 30 January 2016, 21:22:42
I hope it gets resolved soon and reasonably painlessly.
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 30 January 2016, 22:35:27
PayPal is a truly horrible platform for group buys for this very reason, unfortunately. :/
I hope it gets resolved soon and reasonably painlessly.
Or he could run this Keyboard Group Buy through MassDrop :p .
Of course it's too late now but it could of saved him all the problems when dealing directly with paypal. Far better to let MD deal with them personally because they can become difficult due to all the latest government requirements that was set up to prevent funding of extremists overseas.
Nice times to be living in which we the PUBLIC, get shafted by our own governments due to their own inadequacies and dubious foreign policies.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 30 January 2016, 23:45:57
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Sun, 31 January 2016, 04:32:36
also is there anyway to get a raw extra case... i've been thinking of getting one hydrocoated...
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 31 January 2016, 06:18:52
No worries Elrick the group buy is ongoing through the project web site and PayPal has not restricted accepting payments. I am hoping to clear up the matter as soon as possible.
BRILLIANT, what ever you do don't do a "Kin25" here on Geekhack.
We love you for what you've done thus far and always keep us in the loop but don't ever do a "Drop-bear" on us and change into someone hideous and mistrustful. Too much of that going around here lately on GH Central.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 31 January 2016, 12:09:05
ok Elrick!
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Sun, 31 January 2016, 12:18:55
ApocalypseMaow yes you can get the alternate layout with buying the other type of top inner assembly, PCB, and inner foam. You do not need extra parts of you split your backspace, Enter key, or left shift-those can all be done with your existing parts.nice!!! I'll prolly go ahead and throw that on my order too...
ok Elrick!
what about that unpainted case :p
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 31 January 2016, 12:29:54
An unpainted metal case traveling a few weeks on a cargo ship would probably rust.
Post by: henz on Sun, 31 January 2016, 14:11:10
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 31 January 2016, 14:58:10
Post by: cjhard on Sun, 31 January 2016, 21:19:53
I recommend ordering an extra case and having it powdercoated one of the standard colors, and then you can remove the powdercoating (there are some threads on Deskthority about people removing their Kishsaver/4704 keyboard's powdercoating).
An unpainted metal case traveling a few weeks on a cargo ship would probably rust.
Must be a pretty impressive boat to transmute zinc or aluminum into iron oxide :p
Zinc is often used as a coating to steel. It's oxidiation process, like aluminum, protects the metals from further corrosion. Zinc will actually oxidize, then react with CO2 to form zinc carbonate.
It should me noted that zinc is a ductile metal, instead of crumbling from an impact or fall, it will break or shatter.
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Sun, 31 January 2016, 21:42:54
I recommend ordering an extra case and having it powdercoated one of the standard colors, and then you can remove the powdercoating (there are some threads on Deskthority about people removing their Kishsaver/4704 keyboard's powdercoating).
An unpainted metal case traveling a few weeks on a cargo ship would probably rust.
Must be a pretty impressive boat to transmute zinc or aluminum into iron oxide :p
Zinc is often used as a coating to steel. It's oxidiation process, like aluminum, protects the metals from further corrosion. Zinc will actually oxidize, then react with CO2 to form zinc carbonate.
It should me noted that zinc is a ductile metal, instead of crumbling from an impact or fall, it will break or shatter.
Alchemy my friend does some strange things
Post by: againer on Mon, 01 February 2016, 14:22:01
And be a good fit for this Laptop
(http://g01.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1VageJVXXXXaHXpXXq6xXFXXXR/KH-Laptop-Rust-font-b-Skin-b-font-Cover-For-DELL-Alienware-font-b-M17x-b.jpg)
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 01 February 2016, 19:15:01
Has anyone encountered any problems or errors on the project web site? Does anyone need to pay with a credit card or check and prefers not to go through PayPal.com's guest checkout (no registration required)? Please let me know and I will look into other options.
As an update I contacted two GH members that ika recommended I contact regarding advice for PayPal and I have contacted a manager at PayPal whom some online project managers said helped them with their own frozen PayPal assets.
ApocalypseMaow - it seems like an unpainted case may not rust if made out of zinc instead of aluminum (I haven't decided on the final case material yet but I hope for zinc!). So feel free to specify uncoated/unpainted if you decide to order another case. I can always discuss options with you like cancelling the extra unpainted case or changing it to powdercoated if the factory recommends against it.
I have noticed a lot of people ordering extra F77 and F62 cases. I guess people want to be able to have both cases before these go out of production. After that you would need to buy a whole keyboard in another case color to get the alternate color.
Also the black case / black keys is a popular option. I continue to type on the brand new Industrial F77 prototype and over the past week the springs have loosened up to make them even more more closely comparable with an original Model F.
Post by: aznairjordan on Mon, 01 February 2016, 19:18:09
wow - after not even the first week of ordering, almost one-third of those who filled out the interest form have already placed their orders on ModelFkeyboards.com! We still have the rest of this month to take care of everyone else.
Has anyone encountered any problems or errors on the project web site? Does anyone need to pay with a credit card or check and prefers not to go through PayPal.com's guest checkout (no registration required)? Please let me know and I will look into other options.
As an update I contacted two GH members that ika recommended I contact regarding advice for PayPal and I have contacted a manager at PayPal whom some online project managers said helped them with their own frozen PayPal assets.
ApocalypseMaow - it seems like an unpainted case may not rust if made out of zinc instead of aluminum (I haven't decided on the final case material yet but I hope for zinc!). So feel free to specify uncoated/unpainted if you decide to order another case. I can always discuss options with you like cancelling the extra unpainted case or changing it to powdercoated if the factory recommends against it.
I have noticed a lot of people ordering extra F77 and F62 cases. I guess people want to be able to have both cases before these go out of production. After that you would need to buy a whole keyboard in another case color to get the alternate color.
Also the black case / black keys is a popular option.
Hey ellipse. I'm thinking of adding a black case to my order. How would I go about that? Do I just need to pm you?
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Mon, 01 February 2016, 19:26:01
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 02 February 2016, 09:12:36
I'd be in for a small case, anodised would be nice, and I like the sound of removable USB.
Me too. Agree on all this
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 02 February 2016, 09:33:29
The only think I really used on my RealForce from the right is the arrow keys, and not really that heavily, so I'm thinking of going with the F62 in HHKB layout so I can have arrow key use when needed through Fn key....
..But the split backspace I'm not sure what I would want of why..
Thanks!
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 02 February 2016, 09:37:44
Quick separate questions:
1. Will these boards be recognized by the BIOS to deal with stuff in there?
2. On the blue Industrial keys - Does Unicomp offer the option to get the top row keys in blue? (all the numbers) On an F62/63 HHKB board, it'd be pretty cool to have the top row be blue for differentiation.
3. How wide are the metal case sections to the immediate left & right of the keys? I'm trying to get a sense of the spacing on my desk and my mouse area, etc
4. Sort of related to #3: Will there be a narrower version of the F77? I really think I might want arrow keys w/o macros/fn key, but the width of keyboards has become a huge issue for me with my mouse use. I just can't go wider than TKL's without my elbow hurting from weird angles to reach over to the mouse "way over there"
Post by: riotonthebay on Tue, 02 February 2016, 09:37:50
Can someone familiar with the HHKB explain why I might want the Split Backspace in addition to the Split Shift (which is obviously to accommodate the Fn key that's heavily used).
The only think I really used on my RealForce from the right is the arrow keys, and not really that heavily, so I'm thinking of going with the F62 in HHKB layout so I can have arrow key use when needed through Fn key....
..But the split backspace I'm not sure what I would want of why..
Thanks!
Splitting the backspace gives you room for one extra key, making it an F63 instead of F62. This means you can have the full normal 62 keys plus Esc. With only 62 keys, you'd normally have to put `~ on the Fn layer. With a split backspace, \| and `~ go where the backspace would be, and backspace lives where \| would be.
There's also the added benefit of having backspace in a slightly more convenient location, given that it's used dramatically more than \|.
And finally, there's a nice aesthetic to the symmetry of the split backspace layout.
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 02 February 2016, 09:47:00
Can someone familiar with the HHKB explain why I might want the Split Backspace in addition to the Split Shift (which is obviously to accommodate the Fn key that's heavily used).
The only think I really used on my RealForce from the right is the arrow keys, and not really that heavily, so I'm thinking of going with the F62 in HHKB layout so I can have arrow key use when needed through Fn key....
..But the split backspace I'm not sure what I would want of why..
Thanks!
Splitting the backspace gives you room for one extra key, making it an F63 instead of F62. This means you can have the full normal 62 keys plus Esc. With only 62 keys, you'd normally have to put `~ on the Fn layer. With a split backspace, \| and `~ go where the backspace would be, and backspace lives where \| would be.
There's also the added benefit of having backspace in a slightly more convenient location, given that it's used dramatically more than \|.
And finally, there's a nice aesthetic to the symmetry of the split backspace layout.
Thank you!
Is there a photo of the HHKB layout with both of the split options installed?
Looking and not finding it....
Post by: riotonthebay on Tue, 02 February 2016, 09:59:40
Can someone familiar with the HHKB explain why I might want the Split Backspace in addition to the Split Shift (which is obviously to accommodate the Fn key that's heavily used).
The only think I really used on my RealForce from the right is the arrow keys, and not really that heavily, so I'm thinking of going with the F62 in HHKB layout so I can have arrow key use when needed through Fn key....
..But the split backspace I'm not sure what I would want of why..
Thanks!
Splitting the backspace gives you room for one extra key, making it an F63 instead of F62. This means you can have the full normal 62 keys plus Esc. With only 62 keys, you'd normally have to put `~ on the Fn layer. With a split backspace, \| and `~ go where the backspace would be, and backspace lives where \| would be.
There's also the added benefit of having backspace in a slightly more convenient location, given that it's used dramatically more than \|.
And finally, there's a nice aesthetic to the symmetry of the split backspace layout.
Thank you!
Is there a photo of the HHKB layout with both of the split options installed?
Looking and not finding it....
There isn't one – there was only one F62 prototype made, and it didn't have a split backspace. You can however just look at a HHKB and imagine that it's a big buckling spring keyboard made of metal ;) (with some extra keys at the bottom)
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 02 February 2016, 10:08:48
Can someone familiar with the HHKB explain why I might want the Split Backspace in addition to the Split Shift (which is obviously to accommodate the Fn key that's heavily used).
The only think I really used on my RealForce from the right is the arrow keys, and not really that heavily, so I'm thinking of going with the F62 in HHKB layout so I can have arrow key use when needed through Fn key....
..But the split backspace I'm not sure what I would want of why..
Thanks!
Splitting the backspace gives you room for one extra key, making it an F63 instead of F62. This means you can have the full normal 62 keys plus Esc. With only 62 keys, you'd normally have to put `~ on the Fn layer. With a split backspace, \| and `~ go where the backspace would be, and backspace lives where \| would be.
There's also the added benefit of having backspace in a slightly more convenient location, given that it's used dramatically more than \|.
And finally, there's a nice aesthetic to the symmetry of the split backspace layout.
Thank you!
Is there a photo of the HHKB layout with both of the split options installed?
Looking and not finding it....
There isn't one – there was only one F62 prototype made, and it didn't have a split backspace. You can however just look at a HHKB and imagine that it's a big buckling spring keyboard made of metal ;) (with some extra keys at the bottom)
So if looking at the HHKB layout pictures, I would imagine a small backspace key in the top right then?
Post by: 0100010 on Tue, 02 February 2016, 10:20:29
So if looking at the HHKB layout pictures, I would imagine a small backspace key in the top right then?
Think something like this :
http://tinyurl.com/zsexcrz (http://tinyurl.com/zsexcrz)
(http://s18.postimg.org/hk7d30rsp/F62.png)
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 02 February 2016, 16:58:43
ryahirv - yes these boards are regular USB HID communication and are recognized in my UEFI/bios at least.
Yes you can get custom color 1U printed keys at $1.50 each from Unicomp. To order on the web site just add 23 units of "other customizations (in $1 increments)" and make a note of what you are looking for (front row of keys in XYZ color with front printing of F1, etc., for example).
The F77 is a little over 16" wide with about 1.25" of case edge on the left and right. The smaller F77 case would save about 1.5-2 inches in my estimate as some edge is still required for the capacitive PCB traces running on the sides. I am hoping for a narrower F77 aluminum extruded case.
Hoffman I'd like to keep this thread going for ongoing discussion of Model F keyboard development, including my plans for a smaller aluminum case and other small modifications to the F62/F77 before they ship like colors, bumpers, etc.
For the Group Buy topic I would like that to focus on issues specific to the group buy - for example helping people coordinate proxy shipping and discussing issues related to placing an order and updating their order, and soon checking on their order status.
A lot of people are following the topic in both places, but primarily in this IC thread to continue different topics of discussion. I will try to keep duplicate posts to a minimum.
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 02 February 2016, 17:47:55
aznairjordan feel free to just place another order on ModelFkeyboards.com for the case and choose "local pickup" for shipping so you are not charged twice.
ryahirv - yes these boards are regular USB HID communication and are recognized in my UEFI/bios at least.
Yes you can get custom color 1U printed keys at $1.50 each from Unicomp. To order on the web site just add 23 units of "other customizations (in $1 increments)" and make a note of what you are looking for (front row of keys in XYZ color with front printing of F1, etc., for example).
The F77 is a little over 16" wide with about 1.25" of case edge on the left and right. The smaller F77 case would save about 1.5-2 inches in my estimate as some edge is still required for the capacitive PCB traces running on the sides. I am hoping for a narrower F77 aluminum extruded case.
Hoffman I'd like to keep this thread going for ongoing discussion of Model F keyboard development, including my plans for a smaller aluminum case and other small modifications to the F62/F77 before they ship like colors, bumpers, etc.
For the Group Buy topic I would like that to focus on issues specific to the group buy - for example helping people coordinate proxy shipping and discussing issues related to placing an order and updating their order, and soon checking on their order status.
A lot of people are following the topic in both places, but primarily in this IC thread to continue different topics of discussion. I will try to keep duplicate posts to a minimum.
@Ellipse:
Do you think the smaller f62 & f77 are both happening?
I'd honestly be happy to still do my early bird $100 to help out and wait for the smaller case version options if they are for sure happening.
For me the elbow/mouse/ergonomic thing is totally real and narrower "bezels" around my keyboards (and thus not as wide overall) are absolutely awesome & a real consideration for me at this point in life.
I don't really want to go f62 w/ macro/function key stuff as I don't know if I'd like it for sure. Maybe it'd be awesome...I just don't know as I've never tried it (with an HHKB or anything)
The narrowest possible f77 certainly sounds right up my alley (again...if it's happening at some point)
Right now I use a RealForce 87U and I just can't imagine going back to anything any wider, so if a narrower f77 isn't happening, I guess the f62 (normal or narrow) would be my only options.
Post by: romevi on Tue, 02 February 2016, 18:07:27
aznairjordan feel free to just place another order on ModelFkeyboards.com for the case and choose "local pickup" for shipping so you are not charged twice.
ryahirv - yes these boards are regular USB HID communication and are recognized in my UEFI/bios at least.
Yes you can get custom color 1U printed keys at $1.50 each from Unicomp. To order on the web site just add 23 units of "other customizations (in $1 increments)" and make a note of what you are looking for (front row of keys in XYZ color with front printing of F1, etc., for example).
The F77 is a little over 16" wide with about 1.25" of case edge on the left and right. The smaller F77 case would save about 1.5-2 inches in my estimate as some edge is still required for the capacitive PCB traces running on the sides. I am hoping for a narrower F77 aluminum extruded case.
Hoffman I'd like to keep this thread going for ongoing discussion of Model F keyboard development, including my plans for a smaller aluminum case and other small modifications to the F62/F77 before they ship like colors, bumpers, etc.
For the Group Buy topic I would like that to focus on issues specific to the group buy - for example helping people coordinate proxy shipping and discussing issues related to placing an order and updating their order, and soon checking on their order status.
A lot of people are following the topic in both places, but primarily in this IC thread to continue different topics of discussion. I will try to keep duplicate posts to a minimum.
@Ellipse:
Do you think the smaller f62 & f77 are both happening?
I'd honestly be happy to still do my early bird $100 to help out and wait for the smaller case version options if they are for sure happening.
For me the elbow/mouse/ergonomic thing is totally real and narrower "bezels" around my keyboards (and thus not as wide overall) are absolutely awesome & a real consideration for me at this point in life.
I don't really want to go f62 w/ macro/function key stuff as I don't know if I'd like it for sure. Maybe it'd be awesome...I just don't know as I've never tried it (with an HHKB or anything)
The narrowest possible f77 certainly sounds right up my alley (again...if it's happening at some point)
Right now I use a RealForce 87U and I just can't imagine going back to anything any wider, so if a narrower f77 isn't happening, I guess the f62 (normal or narrow) would be my only options.
I'd expect to see custom cases for this once these are delivered.
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 02 February 2016, 18:09:08
aznairjordan feel free to just place another order on ModelFkeyboards.com for the case and choose "local pickup" for shipping so you are not charged twice.
ryahirv - yes these boards are regular USB HID communication and are recognized in my UEFI/bios at least.
Yes you can get custom color 1U printed keys at $1.50 each from Unicomp. To order on the web site just add 23 units of "other customizations (in $1 increments)" and make a note of what you are looking for (front row of keys in XYZ color with front printing of F1, etc., for example).
The F77 is a little over 16" wide with about 1.25" of case edge on the left and right. The smaller F77 case would save about 1.5-2 inches in my estimate as some edge is still required for the capacitive PCB traces running on the sides. I am hoping for a narrower F77 aluminum extruded case.
Hoffman I'd like to keep this thread going for ongoing discussion of Model F keyboard development, including my plans for a smaller aluminum case and other small modifications to the F62/F77 before they ship like colors, bumpers, etc.
For the Group Buy topic I would like that to focus on issues specific to the group buy - for example helping people coordinate proxy shipping and discussing issues related to placing an order and updating their order, and soon checking on their order status.
A lot of people are following the topic in both places, but primarily in this IC thread to continue different topics of discussion. I will try to keep duplicate posts to a minimum.
@Ellipse:
Do you think the smaller f62 & f77 are both happening?
I'd honestly be happy to still do my early bird $100 to help out and wait for the smaller case version options if they are for sure happening.
For me the elbow/mouse/ergonomic thing is totally real and narrower "bezels" around my keyboards (and thus not as wide overall) are absolutely awesome & a real consideration for me at this point in life.
I don't really want to go f62 w/ macro/function key stuff as I don't know if I'd like it for sure. Maybe it'd be awesome...I just don't know as I've never tried it (with an HHKB or anything)
The narrowest possible f77 certainly sounds right up my alley (again...if it's happening at some point)
Right now I use a RealForce 87U and I just can't imagine going back to anything any wider, so if a narrower f77 isn't happening, I guess the f62 (normal or narrow) would be my only options.
I'd expect to see custom cases for this once these are delivered.
But don't they require a slightly different internal something also?
I feel like I read that at some point..
i.e. We wouldn't be able to take one of these original F62/F77 model and just case swap to the smaller bezel options - I think we'd have to order them that way from the get go, no?
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Tue, 02 February 2016, 18:11:37
Hoffman I'd like to keep this thread going for ongoing discussion of Model F keyboard development, including my plans for a smaller aluminum case and other small modifications to the F62/F77 before they ship like colors, bumpers, etc.
Roger that. :thumb: Carry on!
Post by: romevi on Tue, 02 February 2016, 18:13:10
aznairjordan feel free to just place another order on ModelFkeyboards.com for the case and choose "local pickup" for shipping so you are not charged twice.
ryahirv - yes these boards are regular USB HID communication and are recognized in my UEFI/bios at least.
Yes you can get custom color 1U printed keys at $1.50 each from Unicomp. To order on the web site just add 23 units of "other customizations (in $1 increments)" and make a note of what you are looking for (front row of keys in XYZ color with front printing of F1, etc., for example).
The F77 is a little over 16" wide with about 1.25" of case edge on the left and right. The smaller F77 case would save about 1.5-2 inches in my estimate as some edge is still required for the capacitive PCB traces running on the sides. I am hoping for a narrower F77 aluminum extruded case.
Hoffman I'd like to keep this thread going for ongoing discussion of Model F keyboard development, including my plans for a smaller aluminum case and other small modifications to the F62/F77 before they ship like colors, bumpers, etc.
For the Group Buy topic I would like that to focus on issues specific to the group buy - for example helping people coordinate proxy shipping and discussing issues related to placing an order and updating their order, and soon checking on their order status.
A lot of people are following the topic in both places, but primarily in this IC thread to continue different topics of discussion. I will try to keep duplicate posts to a minimum.
@Ellipse:
Do you think the smaller f62 & f77 are both happening?
I'd honestly be happy to still do my early bird $100 to help out and wait for the smaller case version options if they are for sure happening.
For me the elbow/mouse/ergonomic thing is totally real and narrower "bezels" around my keyboards (and thus not as wide overall) are absolutely awesome & a real consideration for me at this point in life.
I don't really want to go f62 w/ macro/function key stuff as I don't know if I'd like it for sure. Maybe it'd be awesome...I just don't know as I've never tried it (with an HHKB or anything)
The narrowest possible f77 certainly sounds right up my alley (again...if it's happening at some point)
Right now I use a RealForce 87U and I just can't imagine going back to anything any wider, so if a narrower f77 isn't happening, I guess the f62 (normal or narrow) would be my only options.
I'd expect to see custom cases for this once these are delivered.
But don't they require a slightly different internal something also?
I feel like I read that at some point..
i.e. We wouldn't be able to take one of these original F62/F77 model and just case swap to the smaller bezel options - I think we'd have to order them that way from the get go, no?
Hmm... I'm not at all certain. It's hard to keep up with this IC, the GB thread, and the thread at deskthority.
However, I'd be interested in the smaller case and all that it entails as well, as I've become accustomed to smaller form factors lately.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 02 February 2016, 21:49:11
I expect the smaller cases to be made of three aluminum pieces: a top bezel, middle piece, and a flat plate to cover the bottom. I'd imagine they would be attached with screws - does anyone have any suggestions in this area?
romevi what do you mean? I'm sure the factory can make the smaller cases during March and at the very worst they can air ship them to me. Seems like we have 20 people interested so far.
ryahirv you only need a different bottom inner assembly, a $20 part. Everything else can be used for either case. The original bottom inner assembly is too wide to fit the smaller cases.
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 02 February 2016, 21:55:31
ryahirv you only need a different bottom inner assembly, a $20 part. Everything else can be used for either case. The original bottom inner assembly is too wide to fit the smaller cases.
So that's great news!
That sounds like "order the F77 now and get a smaller case and different $20 inner assembly when available", yeah?
May I ask what the projected final width of both the smaller case f77 & f62 would be?
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 02 February 2016, 22:10:59
Yep you can order the main product now and then order a smaller case and bottom inner assembly when available. There would be some work involved in switching cases - I hope to make some instructional videos on F77/F62 disassembly/repair in March/April.
Post by: romevi on Tue, 02 February 2016, 22:39:02
ryahirv you only need a different bottom inner assembly, a $20 part. Everything else can be used for either case. The original bottom inner assembly is too wide to fit the smaller cases.
Ah, that's great! I wasn't sure and it's getting kind of hard to follow all these threads, but that's fantastic and will definitely order a small case with the main board as well! :thumb:
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 02 February 2016, 22:41:08
ryahirv you only need a different bottom inner assembly, a $20 part. Everything else can be used for either case. The original bottom inner assembly is too wide to fit the smaller cases.
Ah, that's great! I wasn't sure and it's getting kind of hard to follow all these threads, but that's fantastic and will definitely order a small case with the main board as well! :thumb:
Which you getting? 62 or 77?
Post by: romevi on Tue, 02 February 2016, 22:50:57
ryahirv you only need a different bottom inner assembly, a $20 part. Everything else can be used for either case. The original bottom inner assembly is too wide to fit the smaller cases.
Ah, that's great! I wasn't sure and it's getting kind of hard to follow all these threads, but that's fantastic and will definitely order a small case with the main board as well! :thumb:
Which you getting? 62 or 77?
F77. I feel like the 62 is too close to 60% boards, whereas the F77 is so unique that it's unlike any other board. :)
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 02 February 2016, 23:16:53
On the f62/63 HHKB layout with both split keys, are you able to confirm what others have said about how that would look?
Trying to get a sense on that one.
I just can't go any wider than my 87u I've decided tonight and so I'm thinking of doing a f62/63 HHKB layout for now and buying an f77 also, once the smaller case is available for that.
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 03 February 2016, 00:47:27
@Ellipse
On the f62/63 HHKB layout with both split keys, are you able to confirm what others have said about how that would look?
It would look like this, except with the right shift split as in 0100010's pic, stepped "caps lock" style key and 1U key.
(https://i.imgur.com/o852pMMl.jpg)
Think something like this :Show Image(http://s18.postimg.org/hk7d30rsp/F62.png)
Post by: riotonthebay on Wed, 03 February 2016, 09:46:45
Post by: ryahirv on Wed, 03 February 2016, 13:32:28
Seems like the HHKB keys are very compactly placed together and thus makes the consistent use of the Fn layer keys less stressful/tedious perhaps?
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 03 February 2016, 18:11:22
Seems like the HHKB keys are very compactly placed together and thus makes the consistent use of the Fn layer keys less stressful/tedious perhaps?
It's only stressful/tedious if you have small, girl-like hands but this keyboard isn't for them, it's for MEN.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 03 February 2016, 20:11:31
Post by: Ludovician on Thu, 04 February 2016, 04:22:19
@Ellipse
On the f62/63 HHKB layout with both split keys, are you able to confirm what others have said about how that would look?
Trying to get a sense on that one.
I just can't go any wider than my 87u I've decided tonight and so I'm thinking of doing a f62/63 HHKB layout for now and buying an f77 also, once the smaller case is available for that.
The F62 is approximately the same width as the Realforce 87U.
Post by: ryahirv on Thu, 04 February 2016, 12:51:22
@Ellipse
On the f62/63 HHKB layout with both split keys, are you able to confirm what others have said about how that would look?
Trying to get a sense on that one.
I just can't go any wider than my 87u I've decided tonight and so I'm thinking of doing a f62/63 HHKB layout for now and buying an f77 also, once the smaller case is available for that.
The F62 is approximately the same width as the Realforce 87U.
Right...but without arrow keys (and the other keys above) that I could get on the f77 which is *much* wider than the RealForce until the smaller f77 case comes along
Post by: ctm on Thu, 04 February 2016, 20:52:09
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 05 February 2016, 01:56:57
Right...but without arrow keys (and the other keys above) that I could get on the f77 which is *much* wider than the RealForce until the smaller f77 case comes along
NOOOOOO, don't mince up the F77 keyboard, it's perfect as is. What the hell is wrong with you, wanting to cut and trim a CLASSIC design down to another plain keyboard :o .
The current shape is an authentic Model-F keyboard that is perfect as is, it's like trying to cut down a Shelby Cobra to look like a Mini, absolute travesty on every scale of human understanding >:( .
Leave it well enough alone because you youngster's will kill yourself when you get older and realize what you have done to something that is sacred and worshiped around the globe as is. Don't mess with perfection otherwise you shall curse the day you even tried to disfigure such a great piece of DESIGN.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 05 February 2016, 06:52:35
Post by: ryahirv on Fri, 05 February 2016, 07:17:16
Right...but without arrow keys (and the other keys above) that I could get on the f77 which is *much* wider than the RealForce until the smaller f77 case comes along
NOOOOOO, don't mince up the F77 keyboard, it's perfect as is. What the hell is wrong with you, wanting to cut and trim a CLASSIC design down to another plain keyboard :o .
The current shape is an authentic Model-F keyboard that is perfect as is, it's like trying to cut down a Shelby Cobra to look like a Mini, absolute travesty on every scale of human understanding >:( .
Leave it well enough alone because you youngster's will kill yourself when you get older and realize what you have done to something that is sacred and worshiped around the globe as is. Don't mess with perfection otherwise you shall curse the day you even tried to disfigure such a great piece of DESIGN.
Easy tiger!
I assume you're being at least a touch sarcastic? (I hope)
There's nothing "wrong" with me and the sides of the case have no bearing on how wonderful the keys are to use.
There's definitely market space for both. Lots of people in here have inquired about smaller case options.
Post by: cjhard on Fri, 05 February 2016, 08:48:35
Easy tiger!
I assume you're being at least a touch sarcastic? (I hope)
There's nothing "wrong" with me and the sides of the case have no bearing on how wonderful the keys are to use.
There's definitely market space for both. Lots of people in here have inquired about smaller case options.
That's just Elrick, he gets himself all hyped up and gets all jazzed about his toys. I just roll my eyes and keep scrolling.
Post by: againer on Fri, 05 February 2016, 13:02:21
It would accompany the f62 really nice. I did think about a setup like an organ with two levels of keyboards. :eek:
Or does anybody know where I could find a f50?
I am afraid, that the Pay Pal affair could end up bad. And the ppl who pay will have to wait ages for their money to get returned by paypal.
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 05 February 2016, 17:01:28
I just roll my eyes and keep scrolling.
The Joy of Geekhack 8) .
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 05 February 2016, 17:14:07
Are there any plans to reviwe the f50 in a later run?
It would accompany the f62 really nice. I did think about a setup like an organ with two levels of keyboards. :eek:
Or does anybody know where I could find a f50?
I am afraid, that the Pay Pal affair could end up bad. And the ppl who pay will have to wait ages for their money to get returned by paypal.
I don't think there would be enough interest for an F50, ellipse actually found a bunch and sold them off a while ago. I have the M version and I used to use it with my SSK. It is a pretty handy set up.
I think the paypal thing is just a verification issue and once they realise it will be all good as ellipse is not doing anything wrong (as far as we know) so it is just their anti-money laundering obligations being fulfilled.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 05 February 2016, 20:06:39
In the mean time I am still receiving orders - recently we passed the $40,000 mark with orders! Who could have expected it would reach that much after the first week or so ?!?!
I recommend asking GH user orihalcon as he may have some M49/M50 units. Some of them have partial Model F internals as they are F/M hybrids (they have barrels and the steel inside plate but use a membrane, or something like that).
And yes I had access to about 10 or 20 F50s that I could have bought - I offered them for as little as $100 but only a few people bought them. I ended up passing on the rest of the available units and they ended up selling them back to China or Japan, probably to be melted for scrap metal :(
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 05 February 2016, 20:20:17
I think the paypal thing is just a verification issue and once they realise it will be all good as ellipse is not doing anything wrong (as far as we know) so it is just their anti-money laundering obligations being fulfilled.
Yep, don't forget in the beginning BunnyLake got side stepped with Paypal but it took a long time to get everything sorted and his original Group Buy continued unmolested.
All Paypal is doing is their standard reference checking via addresses/identities which every first timer goes through when running a large Group Buy through them. Figured the morons would have sorted the procedures out by now to reduce waiting times but it looks like nothing has changed with them.
So this group Buy can still continue because they (Paypal) still deem this to be legitimate with no worries.
Post by: romevi on Fri, 05 February 2016, 20:26:47
Post by: Ir0n on Sat, 06 February 2016, 03:11:29
Are there any plans to reviwe the f50 in a later run?
It would accompany the f62 really nice. I did think about a setup like an organ with two levels of keyboards. :eek:
Or does anybody know where I could find a f50?
I am afraid, that the Pay Pal affair could end up bad. And the ppl who pay will have to wait ages for their money to get returned by paypal.
I don't think there would be enough interest for an F50, ellipse actually found a bunch and sold them off a while ago. I have the M version and I used to use it with my SSK. It is a pretty handy set up.
I think the paypal thing is just a verification issue and once they realise it will be all good as ellipse is not doing anything wrong (as far as we know) so it is just their anti-money laundering obligations being fulfilled.
You know..I was gaming on my AT tonight and I only have the middle part of the keyboard actually programmed to sorta emulate a f62 to see if I can work with it and the game wanted me to use page up and down and junk to spin a block around..
and I thought about those funky f50 keyboards.. I bet that **** would be handy lol and the amount of macros you could setup on that thing ..I want one now rofl how much are those?
Then I could have it on my left side and not need to move my hand off my mouse..That would be an amazing set up for me
And on the subject of gaming I know it isn't meant for it but I'm having no issues what so ever in games like league and Tomb raider etc
I'm pretty hyped for this keyboard lol thanks for the chance to own one Ellipse
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 February 2016, 18:54:06
Quite a few people are placing their order to get their early spot in line but are then changing their mind on the specific customizations they would like to have, which is perfectly fine! Just PM me if you have any changes to your order that you'd like to make.
Post by: intelli78 on Tue, 09 February 2016, 16:18:09
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 09 February 2016, 16:55:42
Any recommendations on what to say when submitting a story? I have not done this before and don't know what's the best way to go about it.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Tue, 09 February 2016, 17:07:14
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 09 February 2016, 19:15:27
Good news - I just called PayPal again today and they said they approved my case and will release the funds shortly.
So it is looking like the PayPal issue has been resolved and will not pose any potential problems for this project going forward!
thanks Techno
Here's the current approximate order breakdown:
64 United States
7 United Kingdom
6 Australia
3 Japan
3 Sweden
2 Canada
2 Netherlands
2 Korea, Republic of
1 Poland
1 Spain
1 Germany
1 New Zealand
1 Viet Nam
1 France
1 Austria
1 Hong Kong
1 South Africa
1 Indonesia
1 Ireland
Post by: hashbaz on Tue, 09 February 2016, 19:16:31
Post by: lootbag on Tue, 09 February 2016, 19:51:35
PayPal approves my case!
This is good to hear, will submit an order soon!
Post by: Atredl on Wed, 10 February 2016, 13:10:13
Post by: hoggy on Wed, 10 February 2016, 14:35:07
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 10 February 2016, 17:00:51
Here's the current approximate order breakdown:
64 United States
7 United Kingdom
6 Australia
3 Japan
3 Sweden
2 Canada
2 Netherlands
2 Korea, Republic of
1 Poland
1 Spain
1 Germany
1 New Zealand
1 Viet Nam
1 France
1 Austria
1 Hong Kong
1 South Africa
1 Indonesia
1 Ireland
Why aren't there any more "Strayans" ordering these babies?
We have to beat the bloody POMS no matter what, you can't let them show us up here in front of the WORLD >:D !
Post by: fanpeople on Wed, 10 February 2016, 21:28:43
Post by: joneslee85 on Wed, 10 February 2016, 23:33:32
Post by: hoggy on Thu, 11 February 2016, 00:33:12
PayPal approves my case!
Good news - I just called PayPal again today and they said they approved my case and will release the funds shortly.
So it is looking like the PayPal issue has been resolved and will not pose any potential problems for this project going forward!
thanks Techno
Here's the current approximate order breakdown:
64 United States
7 United Kingdom
6 Australia
3 Japan
3 Sweden
2 Canada
2 Netherlands
2 Korea, Republic of
1 Poland
1 Spain
1 Germany
1 New Zealand
1 Viet Nam
1 France
1 Austria
1 Hong Kong
1 South Africa
1 Indonesia
1 Ireland
I'm really hoping my order is one of the 7 from the United Kingdom.
...
1 Isle of Man
Hey, I'm only messing - it's good to see so many orders already. :)
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 11 February 2016, 05:39:11
@Elrik the exchange rate is horrendous. It's nearly double-priced
Yes, it's positively disgusting how our currency has taken a sewer dive just so we can sell our third world agricultural products around the globe. Hence we the 'normal' people have to pay more for ALL our manufactured goods.
Just hate the thought of letting those uppity poms show us off as decrepit losers, especially now :'( .
Post by: raymogi on Thu, 11 February 2016, 05:42:38
Post by: bocahgundul on Thu, 11 February 2016, 05:53:22
There's gonna be only one of these in my country :DNah not until second round! Haha. I've bought so much other board and I forgot about this one and ellipse save the day on the second round decision!
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 11 February 2016, 06:04:38
There's gonna be only one of these in my country :D
Haha me too :) I am representing South Africa.
Post by: raymogi on Thu, 11 February 2016, 06:19:40
There's gonna be only one of these in my country :D
Haha me too :) I am representing South Africa.
Style buddies *fistbump*
Post by: atlas3686 on Thu, 11 February 2016, 06:45:21
There's gonna be only one of these in my country :D
Haha me too :) I am representing South Africa.
Style buddies *fistbump*
(https://media.giphy.com/media/c5PHIq9sXsV6o/giphy.gif)
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 11 February 2016, 18:46:52
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 12 February 2016, 22:35:44
So I am curious - who is waiting until the final round to place an order? I'll make a note of it so I won't send you a reminder email the last week of the early bird round.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sat, 13 February 2016, 00:00:07
Post by: ryahirv on Sat, 13 February 2016, 22:08:17
I'm wondering which way I'll be leaning after the honeymoon period wears off with the new F77!
Post by: bocahgundul on Sun, 14 February 2016, 05:25:40
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 14 February 2016, 05:40:27
Who else has a Realforce 87u in here?
I'm wondering which way I'll be leaning after the honeymoon period wears off with the new F77!
If you're serious about getting an RF, go for the 55g model because only real enthusiasts go for that model rather than any other. Always go for the MAX in g's when it comes to typing bliss :thumb: .
Post by: Ludovician on Sun, 14 February 2016, 06:32:08
Post by: ryahirv on Sun, 14 February 2016, 11:13:51
Who else has a Realforce 87u in here?
I'm wondering which way I'll be leaning after the honeymoon period wears off with the new F77!
If you're serious about getting an RF, go for the 55g model because only real enthusiasts go for that model rather than any other. Always go for the MAX in g's when it comes to typing bliss :thumb: .
Sorry guys - I should have been much more clear.
I actually am typing this right now on a Realforce 87U all 55g and LOVE this board. I'm mainly curious which I'll love more after the F77 shows up! :-)
I had a really nice Model M SSK and they were sort of neck and neck...with nods each way in certain areas. I continue to be worried about the overall width, so I'll definitely be one of those jumping on the slightly smaller case option for the F77 when available.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sun, 14 February 2016, 16:19:24
I had a really nice Model M SSK and they were sort of neck and neck...with nods each way in certain areas. I continue to be worried about the overall width, so I'll definitely be one of those jumping on the slightly smaller case option for the F77 when available.
IMO, Model F capacitive buckling spring is a much nicer typing feel than Model M membrane bs. So if Topre and Model M are neck in neck for you, I predict you'll end up liking this one the best.
I haven't measured, but isn't the standard case F77 pretty close to the SSK in overall width?
Post by: ryahirv on Sun, 14 February 2016, 16:29:55
Post by: ryahirv on Sun, 14 February 2016, 16:31:07
Post by: ryahirv on Sun, 14 February 2016, 16:31:45
I haven't measured, but isn't the standard case F77 pretty close to the SSK in overall width?
I think it's close, but the problem is that I'm used to the Realforce which is around 1.5" narrower than the SSK, so I'll be looking to shave anything off I can.
(I know..some are bent on the "original look" of the Model F - I could care less about that, as usability on my desk and the key action is my main focus - In fact, I sort of wish there were a version of this project that was taking the original key action and trying to do a modern approach & case/design to everything else about it - The "Best of both worlds" approach.)
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 14 February 2016, 16:43:07
Please do let me know of any "simple design" keyboards you'd recommend me look at while doing the designs.
Post by: ryahirv on Sun, 14 February 2016, 16:48:52
ryahirv - I am working on a modern case design for the F62/F77 that will look like some of the other high end custom keyboard projects.
Will our existing F77's be able to work in the "modern case"?
Is this the same thing you meant when talking about the "narrower case options" coming down the line and that we could convert our existing F77's to with a little effort?
In terms of look. I personally like the look of the Code keyboard (no backlighting obviously). I love the KB's that have black cases (especially if it's a cool matte or interesting finish of some kind) with white keys. Love to see some of the ones you've been considering for inspiration!
To me, getting the edges/frame/bezel to the minimums is my main thing. I actually think the Industrial Gray with the smallest possible edges would be plenty cool, especially if as matte as possible (shiny= no thanks...for me anyways).
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 14 February 2016, 16:58:03
Yes this is the same as the narrower case options that will soon be available and can be converted with some effort.
I will make the case as small as possible while still allowing for screws to secure the different pieces of the case together (or are there other recommended ways to assemble the case?).
If anyone can point me to detailed photos of disassembled higher-end custom keyboards that they like, I'd appreciate it.
Post by: ryahirv on Sun, 14 February 2016, 17:07:45
Yes this is the same as the narrower case options that will soon be available and can be converted with some effort.
I will make the case as small as possible while still allowing for screws to secure the different pieces of the case together
Sweet!
I will be onboard Day 1 on this option..
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 14 February 2016, 17:14:53
I am thinking of a very simple ultra-compact rectangular-type case with a bezel, middle section, and bottom metal plate, assembled together by screws that are only visible from the underside of the keyboard. It will probably be made of anodized/brushed aluminum or aluminum with a covering done by electrophoresis, and hopefully with a number of color options including black, silver, and gray. If anyone has specific finishing recommendations for the aluminum case please let me know.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 14 February 2016, 17:16:00
As I mentioned before, I'd like to set up a public meeting for anyone who wants to try out the Brand New Kishsaver F62/Industrial F77 keyboards in person in Manhattan. I also invited two professional tech news writers to stop by and maybe even do a quick first look review (they are interviewing me on the subject of this project).
Who would like to attend? Which days and times would accommodate most people do you think?
I was thinking Thursdays in the early evening, so how about Thursday 2/25 at 7 PM? I think Mondays, Fridays, and weekends are too busy for most people.
Can anyone volunteer a venue to host the meetup? Otherwise we can just meet in one of those indoor Privately Owned Public Spaces in the city.
I'd also invite attendees to bring their own keyboards for comparison if interested.
Post by: Vittra on Sun, 14 February 2016, 18:21:17
Great ryahirv. While I usually want to make prototypes for everything before offering it I am thinking that may not be possible to get it in time by the end of February for the early round. Therefore I may open up orderings based on a rendering of the proposed design after I confirm the design and costs with the factory's engineers. I will keep everyone posted.
I am thinking of a very simple ultra-compact rectangular-type case with a bezel, middle section, and bottom metal plate, assembled together by screws that are only visible from the underside of the keyboard. It will probably be made of anodized/brushed aluminum or aluminum with a covering done by electrophoresis, and hopefully with a number of color options including black, silver, and gray. If anyone has specific finishing recommendations for the aluminum case please let me know.
Going to wait for some finalization on this before ordering my F77, glad I caught it.
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 14 February 2016, 18:47:33
Who would like to attend? Which days and times would accommodate most people do you think?
Would love to be there in NYC but I'm stuck out here in the Desert surrounded with stinky, sweaty men all day and night. For once would like to get the stench out of my nostrils from where I work and breathe in some fresh City Air.
When the original F77 gets sent out to me here, shall place an order for a future F77 with a smaller casing design, once it eventuates :thumb: .
Post by: Ludovician on Mon, 15 February 2016, 00:53:40
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Mon, 15 February 2016, 11:53:42
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 15 February 2016, 13:06:57
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 16 February 2016, 19:23:50
If anyone else is holding out for the ultra-compact case and you haven't told me already, please let me know or post here!
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 16 February 2016, 19:38:30
The factory staff is getting back from Chinese New Year this week - I hope to have an update on the ultra-small cases soon. They are definitely happening, it's a matter of when.
If anyone else is holding out for the ultra-compact case and you haven't told me already, please let me know or post here!
Is there any possibility that would happen for the early-bird tooling people?
(I totally understand if not)
If there is a chance though...I'd prefer to go directly into a smaller case F77 from the get go
Post by: romevi on Tue, 16 February 2016, 19:48:08
The factory staff is getting back from Chinese New Year this week - I hope to have an update on the ultra-small cases soon. They are definitely happening, it's a matter of when.
If anyone else is holding out for the ultra-compact case and you haven't told me already, please let me know or post here!
Waiting to place my order until after the early bird round, and then when the small case is ready.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 16 February 2016, 22:08:34
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 16 February 2016, 22:11:04
ryahirv I will try but then it may require me to extend the deadline a few weeks for the early birds - not sure I want to do that. I don't think the factory can turn it around and deliver prototypes to me so quickly.
Don't hold everyone up for me but thank you for thinking about it
Post by: Ludovician on Wed, 17 February 2016, 01:26:37
Post by: fanpeople on Wed, 17 February 2016, 01:34:39
I can't remember if I already told you, so I will say it here: I want a small case.
Dis is good, more small case wanters :thumb:
Post by: Ludovician on Wed, 17 February 2016, 01:45:45
What do you say, when we get these keyboards, all of us aussies who bought them will need to have a battle royale. Last person alive gets to keep them all.
I mean, I don't like my chances of coming out on top but it's a glorious enough way to go.
Post by: fanpeople on Wed, 17 February 2016, 01:48:50
fanpeople.
What do you say, when we get these keyboards, all of us aussies who bought them will need to have a battle royale. Last person alive gets to keep them all.
I mean, I don't like my chances of coming out on top but it's a glorious enough way to go.
This is a good idea, for better effects we will all travel from our various locations and meet at the centre of Australia. It shall also begin Hunger Games style. :thumb:
At least our deaths will be swift
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Wed, 17 February 2016, 11:46:08
fanpeople.
What do you say, when we get these keyboards, all of us aussies who bought them will need to have a battle royale. Last person alive gets to keep them all.
I mean, I don't like my chances of coming out on top but it's a glorious enough way to go.
This is a good idea, for better effects we will all travel from our various locations and meet at the centre of Australia. It shall also begin Hunger Games style. :thumb:
At least our deaths will be swift
only if your opponent wields a full f77. someone with a compact f62 will need a few swings.
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 17 February 2016, 17:09:31
fanpeople.
What do you say, when we get these keyboards, all of us aussies who bought them will need to have a battle royale. Last person alive gets to keep them all.
I mean, I don't like my chances of coming out on top but it's a glorious enough way to go.
This is a good idea, for better effects we will all travel from our various locations and meet at the centre of Australia. It shall also begin Hunger Games style. :thumb:
At least our deaths will be swift
only if your opponent wields a full f77. someone with a compact f62 will need a few swings.
Poor children, ........the ONLY real way to WIN is to sharpen a flat blade screwdriver and insert it into the chest cavity and/or base of skull, on your victim(s) 8) .
It's quiet and they won't even feel it, that's how you dispatch any possible opponent when it comes to grabbing this prize.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 17 February 2016, 21:23:29
118 keyboards: 57 F62 and 61 F77 orders (interestingly the F77s are now in the lead!)
577 extra assembled flippers+springs
370 extra barrels
20 sets of Industrial SSK blue key sets (12 keys per set)
16 sets of front-printed F1, etc. keys
14 pairs of extra steel spacebar tabs
11 extra F62/F77 cases
7 of 13 early bird tooling volunteers have paid so far (one paid more than their $100 share so we did not need anyone else!)
5 extra PCBs
4 Apple/Mac Command/Option keys
2 keyboards upgraded to DHL Express shipping from sea mail
Post by: ryahirv on Wed, 17 February 2016, 21:45:50
Here's the order breakdown so far for those interested (just the main accessory items' orders listed):
118 keyboards: 57 F62 and 61 F77 orders (interestingly the F77s are now in the lead!)
577 extra assembled flippers+springs
370 extra barrels
20 sets of Industrial SSK blue key sets (12 keys per set)
16 sets of front-printed F1, etc. keys
14 pairs of extra steel spacebar tabs
11 extra F62/F77 cases
7 of 13 early bird tooling volunteers have paid so far (one paid more than their $100 share so we did not need anyone else!)
5 extra PCBs
4 Apple/Mac Command/Option keys
2 keyboards upgraded to DHL Express shipping from sea mail
Crap. I just realized I'd like an Apple set of keys for my F77 - how do I tack that on/pay for it?
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 17 February 2016, 21:51:19
Post by: ryahirv on Thu, 18 February 2016, 10:00:53
If anyone wants to add accessories/extra keys to their order free to place another order and just choose free local pickup so you don't have to pay shipping twice. Please do include your user name in the notes section.
Thank you - Just did an "extras order" for front print F keys & Apple Keys & no shipping w/ my username on there.
Cheers!
Post by: Vizir on Thu, 18 February 2016, 17:19:10
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 18 February 2016, 19:15:29
For brilliant white you can order the ANSI layout and then make a note for brilliant white keys before adding that keyboard to the cart. They are the same cost. The front printed keys are also available in Brilliant White - same procedure for making a note of the brilliant white color and then adding it to your cart.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 18 February 2016, 19:16:35
Who would like to attend? Which days and times would accommodate most people do you think?
I was thinking Thursdays in the early evening, so how about Thursday 2/25 at 7 PM? I think Mondays, Fridays, and weekends are too busy for most people.
I'd also invite attendees to bring their own keyboards for comparison if interested.
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Thu, 18 February 2016, 20:13:45
As I mentioned before (in the off topic thread), I'd like to set up a public meeting for anyone who wants to try out the Brand New Kishsaver F62/Industrial F77 keyboards in person in Manhattan. I also invited two professional tech news writers to stop by and maybe even do a quick first look review (they are interviewing me on the subject of this project).
Who would like to attend? Which days and times would accommodate most people do you think?
I was thinking Thursdays in the early evening, so how about Thursday 2/25 at 7 PM? I think Mondays, Fridays, and weekends are too busy for most people.
I'd also invite attendees to bring their own keyboards for comparison if interested.
I couldn't do that sadly. It's a 2 hour drive from school and 1:30 from home and Thursday nights are not ideal for me. I could do Wednesday later in the day or even Tuesday.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 18 February 2016, 20:19:50
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Thu, 18 February 2016, 20:30:37
Wednesdays would be fine with me too - how about Wednesday 2/24 for those interested?
Good with me.
Post by: riotonthebay on Thu, 18 February 2016, 21:24:01
Post by: scott_squires on Fri, 19 February 2016, 13:44:36
Post by: Ludovician on Fri, 19 February 2016, 15:42:24
There is a render of the case somewhere on this thread, I believe.
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Sun, 21 February 2016, 01:44:10
Morefanpeople.
What do you say, when we get these keyboards, all of us aussies who bought them will need to have a battle royale. Last person alive gets to keep them all.
I mean, I don't like my chances of coming out on top but it's a glorious enough way to go.
This is a good idea, for better effects we will all travel from our various locations and meet at the centre of Australia. It shall also begin Hunger Games style. :thumb:
At least our deaths will be swift
only if your opponent wields a full f77. someone with a compact f62 will need a few swings.
Poor children, ........the ONLY real way to WIN is to sharpen a flat blade screwdriver and insert it into the chest cavity and/or base of skull, on your victim(s) 8) .
It's quiet and they won't even feel it, that's how you dispatch any possible opponent when it comes to grabbing this prize.
HAHA I love how Elrick just took this battle to the next level :)) :))
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 21 February 2016, 17:20:10
Here are some more renderings of the Ultra Compact F62 case. The case is designed to be as small as possible, given the requirements of the Model F inner assembly design.
Current Ultra Compact F62 case dimensions are 316 x 149 x 23.2 mm (12.4 x 5.9 x 0.9 in). The original F62 case is 357mm x 178mm x 29mm so you are saving about 1.5 inches in the width, an inch less in the controller area on top, and a quarter inch in height.
Please let me know your feedback - we still have time to change the case design.
My goal is a simple aluminum extruded case made of three pieces - the bezel, middle part, and bottom piece. The renderings do not show the separated pieces but instead show them as one piece for now. For cost reasons we unfortunately cannot "shrink" the design of the original cases and all their features.
Colors are not accurate - I haven't discussed color options for the small case with the factory but I assume they will be anodized, or done with electrophoresis. I do not expect the small cases to be powdercoated.
You also have the option to get both original and ultra compact cases - all components are interchangeable, save the bottom inner assembly plate.
[attachimg=1]
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[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
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Post by: ryahirv on Sun, 21 February 2016, 17:59:26
Any shots of F77 smaller case?
Post by: romevi on Sun, 21 February 2016, 18:05:51
Looking great!
Any shots of F77 smaller case?
This. There will be one for the F77, right?
Also, no angle?
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 21 February 2016, 19:52:33
romevi the angle will be available through different sized bumpers. The case will initially sit flat like the original F62 and F77.
Post by: ryahirv on Sun, 21 February 2016, 20:20:14
ryahirv - not just yet - it should be the same design though, but with the bezel in between the "main section" and the 15 keys on the right.
romevi the angle will be available through different sized bumpers. The case will initially sit flat like the original F62 and F77.
Cool - thx
Post by: romevi on Sun, 21 February 2016, 20:49:46
ryahirv - not just yet - it should be the same design though, but with the bezel in between the "main section" and the 15 keys on the right.
romevi the angle will be available through different sized bumpers. The case will initially sit flat like the original F62 and F77.
Oh, yeah. I do recall you saying that. Thanks!
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sun, 21 February 2016, 22:07:34
Also is the barrel plate going to be sitting at the same angle as in the original case (assuming no back risers are used in each)?
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 21 February 2016, 23:42:02
ryahirv - not just yet - it should be the same design though, but with the bezel in between the "main section" and the 15 keys on the right.
romevi the angle will be available through different sized bumpers. The case will initially sit flat like the original F62 and F77.
We need to actually see the final "SLIM" casing for the F77 before anyone can gauge any real interest in it.
Alas I still love the ORIGINAL design due to it's true authenticity, which can never be ignored. Still want my original F77 order despite what is released in the future.
Post by: raymogi on Sun, 21 February 2016, 23:44:28
So do we have options on which case to choose? Or will the ultra compact one be the final design?
Post by: riotonthebay on Sun, 21 February 2016, 23:45:42
I actually kinda like the look of the original case. It looks different.
So do we have options on which case to choose? Or will the ultra compact one be the final design?
The original is what everyone will get. The slim case is an alt add-on.
Post by: raymogi on Sun, 21 February 2016, 23:46:39
I actually kinda like the look of the original case. It looks different.
So do we have options on which case to choose? Or will the ultra compact one be the final design?
The original is what everyone will get. The slim case is an alt add-on.
Glad to hear that :)
Oh so we can add that to our order? I might be interested in that.
Post by: KetchyKech on Sun, 21 February 2016, 23:58:01
Post by: Photoelectric on Mon, 22 February 2016, 00:02:57
How will the typing angle be varied with this case? With rubber stick-on feet of different sizes or in some other way (like two metal feet on the back)?
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 22 February 2016, 20:01:55
Yes you can vary the angle with stick on feet in different sizes and probably screw-on bumpers as well (not sure yet).
Techno it is an optical illusion - the case is rectangular and not sloped. And yes it should be the same plate positioning so the keys are at the same angle without having to raise or lower the keyboard.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Mon, 22 February 2016, 21:23:28
Post by: Ludovician on Tue, 23 February 2016, 01:25:16
Would it be possible to get a render of the board with the small case, laying flat, with keys on it? I'm wondering what kind of angle it will be at with the curved backplate and the uniform caps, to determine whether I will need to get feet.
Post by: CoolGrayAJ on Tue, 23 February 2016, 15:11:21
Post by: Ludovician on Tue, 23 February 2016, 15:40:16
Yes you can get a custom color for about $100 extra for tooling. Just specify the Pantone color.
Post by: CoolGrayAJ on Tue, 23 February 2016, 15:41:32
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 23 February 2016, 19:37:28
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 24 February 2016, 02:57:34
(Attachment Link)
Every time you post that pic I get a warm feeling down there, in fact only the Mrs can relieve the pressure and I always look forward to that with such glee ;D .
You Sir have done a vital Group Buy here and am counting down the days until I finally get my HOT F77 in my ape-like hands, this is the GB of the year here and nothing has come close to this awe-inspiring interpretation.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 24 February 2016, 17:47:54
I received a message from the mods today and need to remind everyone to minimize cross-posting on the GB and IC threads, though I know I am cross-posting on both threads for this update ;)
I am keeping the IC thread open for ongoing discussion of Model F production, including the small case designs and renderings.
Please put all other questions related to the group buy in the GB thread, including discussion about order options, colors, bumpers, shipping, etc.
Post by: romevi on Wed, 24 February 2016, 19:53:31
Just a thought.
Post by: ika on Wed, 24 February 2016, 19:56:16
Post by: hashbaz on Wed, 24 February 2016, 20:57:07
I think it'd be easier to have the IC closed and everything discussed in the GB. Maybe even open a new thread to discuss the small case design?
Just a thought.
Strongly agree. Having two threads is confusing and pointless.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Wed, 24 February 2016, 23:24:55
Those who want a raised back can always prop it up somehow, but if that angle's baked in, like some of those extreme Korean customs I've seen, then those who want a flat typing angle are out of luck.
If you're worried about extra noise, maybe you could make two risers that are like long triangles pointing towards the front? How about a matching pair of rubber doorstops? Or some kind of rubber shims?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 25 February 2016, 19:29:23
Post by: Cods on Fri, 26 February 2016, 15:46:26
Post by: Muramasa on Fri, 26 February 2016, 17:10:20
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 27 February 2016, 13:45:40
A discussion also started over on DT regarding my original project goal to produce high quality, XT style, one piece keycaps for this project. The project has definitely exceeded expectations with over $65,000 in orders in the first month, so I will look more into making my own one-piece keys of the highest quality for this project. It is making less and less sense to put $10,000 towards Unicomp caps when those funds could go towards the one-piece XT quality production. The factory has dye-sub capabilities and equipment and is willing to take on keycap production. I would probably have to make all the molds because of the slight color difference in Unicomp/IBM Model M caps vs. XT caps. Nothing is finalized just yet!
Post by: ryahirv on Sat, 27 February 2016, 13:55:44
As an update, the factory is still looking over my draft designs for the small case.
A discussion also started over on DT regarding my original project goal to produce high quality, XT style, one piece keycaps for this project. The project has definitely exceeded expectations with over $65,000 in orders in the first month, so I will look more into making my own one-piece keys of the highest quality for this project. It is making less and less sense to put $10,000 towards Unicomp caps when those funds could go towards the one-piece XT quality production. The factory has dye-sub capabilities and equipment and is willing to take on keycap production. I would probably have to make all the molds because of the slight color difference in Unicomp/IBM Model M caps vs. XT caps. Nothing is finalized just yet!
Yes, yes, YES on keycaps!!
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 27 February 2016, 23:02:05
A discussion also started over on DT regarding my original project goal to produce high quality, XT style, one piece keycaps for this project. The project has definitely exceeded expectations with over $65,000 in orders in the first month, so I will look more into making my own one-piece keys of the highest quality for this project. It is making less and less sense to put $10,000 towards Unicomp caps when those funds could go towards the one-piece XT quality production. The factory has dye-sub capabilities and equipment and is willing to take on keycap production. I would probably have to make all the molds because of the slight color difference in Unicomp/IBM Model M caps vs. XT caps. Nothing is finalized just yet!
Agree with you 100% because why throw away valuable funds to a Company that literally doesn't care about what they are producing, anymore.
Far better to give it to someone that is willing to produce QUALITY key-caps, instead of begging Unicomp to pull their lazy thumbs out of their own Arse-holes. Please see that these one piece wonders get made elsewhere instead of crawling to Unicomp to have them done. Never reward laziness with hard earned cash because it furthers their incapacity to do anything valuable, for the Buckling Spring legend.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sat, 27 February 2016, 23:20:12
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 28 February 2016, 11:33:05
Post by: joey on Sun, 28 February 2016, 11:43:39
They would be made by the factory and I would be ordering the buckling spring molds, same as with the other molds for this project.Would that be part of this GB still?
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 28 February 2016, 12:20:49
It's also possible to get black unprinted one piece keys with no shine since I'm ordering the molds anyways.
Those with custom orders outside of the regular pearl/pebble/black would probably still need to be sourced from Unicomp.
Post by: joey on Sun, 28 February 2016, 17:30:22
Post by: ctm on Sun, 28 February 2016, 19:30:30
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 28 February 2016, 19:34:11
Also I am looking into having a non-stepped caps lock and non-stepped split right shift key for this project, as part of the one-piece keys being made from scratch in China. Of course extras could be ordered - extra key sets and non-stepped 1.75U keys.
Post by: Belfong on Sun, 28 February 2016, 21:06:08
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 28 February 2016, 21:21:17
You can also combine shipping with other people ordering from your country, or maybe from nearby Australia? I know someone was trying to arrange a group buy to Australia:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79147.msg2029834#msg2029834
one keyboard to Malaysia is $85 and two would be $127 total according to the USPS.com web site
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 29 February 2016, 04:38:46
I was seriously considering a F77 until I see the shipping cost! Ouch! I think I should just backed out now. What a bummer!
Don't worry, you just showed everyone here you weren't serious about this keyboard to begin with sunshine ;) .
Post by: ctm on Mon, 29 February 2016, 07:56:25
ctm the new caps will be pearl/pebble. If you are picky like me yes the shades of the colors can be told apart when both keys are next to each other. But the factory should have the capability to make switched legends on the ctrl and caps lock keys, as well as printing Fn for the function key.Will 1.75U ctrl and 1.5u Fn be on the plan? Also will this set ship with early bird Model F's in April/May?
Also I am looking into having a non-stepped caps lock and non-stepped split right shift key for this project, as part of the one-piece keys being made from scratch in China. Of course extras could be ordered - extra key sets and non-stepped 1.75U keys.
Post by: laden3 on Mon, 29 February 2016, 07:57:52
Post by: againer on Mon, 29 February 2016, 17:07:14
Post by: atectatifern on Mon, 29 February 2016, 17:32:13
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 29 February 2016, 22:11:36
ctm yes 1.5U keys and 1.75U keys will be available. The early consensus is for non-stepped caps lock and non-stepped short right shift key (both of which have long been out of production). If most people prefer non-stepped keys I will order the mold to be non-stepped (I can't order both molds for cost reasons).
Post by: laden3 on Mon, 29 February 2016, 23:53:22
For those who participated in the early bird round, are we getting unicomp keycaps or are you going to make them?
About the unicomp keycaps, are there non-stepped caps lock?
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 01 March 2016, 17:41:44
Post by: romevi on Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:17:31
Non stepped is my pref for sure
I vomit in your general direction.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:30:15
Unicomp has non-stepped caps lock so you'd always be able to buy a key from them for $2 if you prefer the caps lock to be stepped but want the XT quality one piece keys.
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:33:26
Non stepped is my pref for sure
I vomit in your general direction.
I deflect it back in your direction... ;-)
Post by: Steezus on Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:35:37
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:35:59
Non stepped is my pref for sure
I vomit in your general direction.
Add mine to yours please. We shall cover him, in our response to his ignorant preference ;D .
Why is there an IC and GB thread currently active? Why not just lock down this thread and continue the conversation on the GB thread since it's no longer in interest check stage. Two threads is pointless.
Why? Having two threads is like having a stereophonic diary of this monumental Group Buy here.
We need this and am glad Ellipse is making it happen each and every day, if you can't stand it, then step away from GH and join the mainstream idiots situated elsewhere on the web.
Post by: cjhard on Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:56:32
Will they be dyesub like the originals? Same font and style? Will you be hosting periodic BS Keycap GB's with fun colors and fonts?
Post by: ctm on Tue, 01 March 2016, 20:12:15
laden3 everyone would be getting the higher quality one-piece keys that I expect to make, including the early birds.Do you mean new XT quality cap production will be finished in about one month? I have never seen such fast keycap production :eek: (have been waiting for Matias PBT caps for a year and still waiting...)
Unicomp has non-stepped caps lock so you'd always be able to buy a key from them for $2 if you prefer the caps lock to be stepped but want the XT quality one piece keys.
Post by: laden3 on Wed, 02 March 2016, 08:11:06
laden3 everyone would be getting the higher quality one-piece keys that I expect to make, including the early birds.Do you mean new XT quality cap production will be finished in about one month? I have never seen such fast keycap production :eek: (have been waiting for Matias PBT caps for a year and still waiting...)
Unicomp has non-stepped caps lock so you'd always be able to buy a key from them for $2 if you prefer the caps lock to be stepped but want the XT quality one piece keys.
Actually I am wondering about the same thing.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 02 March 2016, 16:54:50
With delays on the factory side in getting back to me and getting everything ready for production, we are looking towards the latter end of that April/May timeframe in my updated estimate.
I want to get every detail right for this project even if it causes a delay. The factory has been very patient with me so far :)
Post by: ctm on Wed, 02 March 2016, 20:28:32
ctm - I specified a shipping timeframe of April/May, meaning production will definitely take more than one month.That's still a very tight time frame. Tooling prototyping etc... Very impressive :thumb:
With delays on the factory side in getting back to me and getting everything ready for production, we are looking towards the latter end of that April/May timeframe in my updated estimate.
I want to get every detail right for this project even if it causes a delay. The factory has been very patient with me so far :)
btw, how different does XT caps feel compared to Unicomp? I have only tried Unicomp caps and find them to be very nice.
Post by: Ludovician on Wed, 02 March 2016, 22:26:11
Post by: hashbaz on Thu, 03 March 2016, 14:03:51
ctm - I specified a shipping timeframe of April/May, meaning production will definitely take more than one month.That's still a very tight time frame. Tooling prototyping etc... Very impressive :thumb:
With delays on the factory side in getting back to me and getting everything ready for production, we are looking towards the latter end of that April/May timeframe in my updated estimate.
I want to get every detail right for this project even if it causes a delay. The factory has been very patient with me so far :)
Yeah I agree. Three months production time is basically instant gratification on this forum. :))
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 03 March 2016, 17:09:32
Yeah I agree. Three months production time is basically instant gratification on this forum. :))
As long as it doesn't turn into a Kin25 type of Group Buy here, then this will be superb without question :thumb: .
Post by: hashbaz on Thu, 03 March 2016, 17:40:06
Post by: Techno Trousers on Thu, 03 March 2016, 17:53:10
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 03 March 2016, 18:30:24
The XT caps are one-piece, deep black legends, with a more textured key surface.
I wouldn't say all XT caps are better than AT - it depends on the date of manufacture of your keyboard and the amount of wear on the keys. 1984 and earlier tend to have the best quality in my experience.
Here are photos of the one piece keys on my NIB F77 (original), NIB PC AT, and little-used F122 (photos in that respective order):
For the F122 photo I have placed two Model M key caps (the "O" and "K" keys) on top of the original Model F keys for comparison.
The shininess is not actually in person but just due to the camera flash. It is difficult to photograph the keys 100% accurately.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: ctm on Thu, 03 March 2016, 22:21:47
ctm - two-piece Unicomp caps in my opinion are comparable to some later production, original run Model M caps - the legends are less thick/bold and the top of the key caps are more shiny/slippery. They are still great to use.Wow they look great! Have you decided what non-standard legends will be included in the set? I vote for 1.75u Ctrl, 1.5u Fn and 1u Alt (I want to make right part of bottom row Fn-Alt-Ctrl and would like to replace caps lock with Ctrl).
The XT caps are one-piece, deep black legends, with a more textured key surface.
I wouldn't say all XT caps are better than AT - it depends on the date of manufacture of your keyboard and the amount of wear on the keys. 1984 and earlier tend to have the best quality in my experience.
Here are photos of the one piece keys on my NIB F77 (original), NIB PC AT, and little-used F122 (photos in that respective order):
For the F122 photo I have placed two Model M key caps (the "O" and "K" keys) on top of the original Model F keys for comparison.
The shininess is not actually in person but just due to the camera flash. It is difficult to photograph the keys 100% accurately.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 04 March 2016, 18:05:41
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 05 March 2016, 04:12:31
ctm I don't believe the factory is limited to printing certain legends only on certain key caps - I will look more into this in the coming weeks.
How embarrassing for Unicomp, a new Chinese Company doing better things with dye-sub PBTs, than they could ever achieve. Goes to show when it comes to producing the absolute BEST buckling Spring keyboards with keycaps, it's all coming out of Asia.
Pleasantly surprised and looking forward to their range of caps :thumb: .
Post by: Bevo on Sat, 05 March 2016, 06:46:24
Post by: ctm on Sat, 05 March 2016, 09:23:42
ctm I don't believe the factory is limited to printing certain legends only on certain key caps - I will look more into this in the coming weeks.I was more concerned about whether there will be enough interest to produce those caps, especially 1u Alt.
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 06 March 2016, 11:41:26
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 08 March 2016, 16:35:41
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 09 March 2016, 20:43:46
Post by: phoenix_fire512 on Thu, 10 March 2016, 18:13:28
P.S. I've wanted a more compact BS keyboard for awhile... I had a bit of hope in the Unicomp SSK-like 83 key model that may never actually come into existence... found out about the Model M SSK, but was disappointed at the prices they go for... but then I found this! I can get a brand new compact BS keyboard that uses the better Model F design along with improved hardware, all for a better price too. :thumb:
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 12 March 2016, 01:35:00
If there's enough interest on a split spacebar can we make it happen on the regular round ellipse?
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 12 March 2016, 03:45:09
I can get a brand new compact BS keyboard that uses the better Model F design along with improved hardware, all for a better price too. :thumb:
Too right, I wouldn't touch an SSK anymore when Ellipse presented his design. In fact he righteously saved hundreds of people from tossing their money away on old, defective hardware for a brand new Model-F switched keyboard, which is far superior to all the SSKs that were previously sold on Ebay.
Time to get smart and join the Geekhack train to a new destination known as Capacity City, home town of the Greatest Keyboard Switch that was ever made 8) .
Post by: bocahgundul on Sat, 12 March 2016, 03:58:37
Ugh I want to join this GB but there is no option for split spacebar :'(I can get a brand new compact BS keyboard that uses the better Model F design along with improved hardware, all for a better price too. :thumb:
Too right, I wouldn't touch an SSK anymore when Ellipse presented his design. In fact he righteously saved hundreds of people from tossing their money away on old, defective hardware for a brand new Model-F switched keyboard, which is far superior to all the SSKs that were previously sold on Ebay.
Time to get smart and join the Geekhack train to a new destination known as Capacity City, home town of the Greatest Keyboard Switch that was ever made 8) .
ellipse if there is enough interest can you pls make a split spacebard
Post by: Jedi on Sat, 12 March 2016, 09:21:01
Time to get smart and join the Geekhack train to a new destination known as Capacity City, home town of the Greatest Keyboard Switch that was ever made 8) .
The end of my cherry blue misery as we know it. Shut up and take our money!
Post by: Ir0n on Sat, 12 March 2016, 19:15:13
Ugh I want to join this GB but there is no option for split spacebar :'(I can get a brand new compact BS keyboard that uses the better Model F design along with improved hardware, all for a better price too. :thumb:
Too right, I wouldn't touch an SSK anymore when Ellipse presented his design. In fact he righteously saved hundreds of people from tossing their money away on old, defective hardware for a brand new Model-F switched keyboard, which is far superior to all the SSKs that were previously sold on Ebay.
Time to get smart and join the Geekhack train to a new destination known as Capacity City, home town of the Greatest Keyboard Switch that was ever made 8) .
ellipse if there is enough interest can you pls make a split spacebard
I don't think this is doable without making a different PCB and plate o.o
and I think that would cost a lot more than it would be worth doing
Post by: Melvang on Sun, 13 March 2016, 16:33:58
Ugh I want to join this GB but there is no option for split spacebar :'(I can get a brand new compact BS keyboard that uses the better Model F design along with improved hardware, all for a better price too. :thumb:
Too right, I wouldn't touch an SSK anymore when Ellipse presented his design. In fact he righteously saved hundreds of people from tossing their money away on old, defective hardware for a brand new Model-F switched keyboard, which is far superior to all the SSKs that were previously sold on Ebay.
Time to get smart and join the Geekhack train to a new destination known as Capacity City, home town of the Greatest Keyboard Switch that was ever made 8) .
ellipse if there is enough interest can you pls make a split spacebard
I don't think this is doable without making a different PCB and plate o.o
and I think that would cost a lot more than it would be worth doing
Besides, no caps in that size are being made. It would require a new PCB, top plate, and caps that aren't being made, along with the eternal debate on what to use for a bottom row layout. All of which would get expensive very quickly. Even if there could be a collaboration on bottom row layout, the only size that Unicomp makes keys for with he convex surface instead of concave, are the two size space bars they already make.
With this, I very much doubt that Unicomp would make molds for these sizes of caps. Now it wouldn't be difficult to find a plastic injection molding company to do this, but molds would likely cost multiple thousand dollars, just to get the molds made, let alone make caps with them.
Post by: bocahgundul on Sun, 13 March 2016, 18:01:56
Post by: romevi on Sun, 13 March 2016, 23:03:16
Ugh I'm sad that I need to pass this GB
Why? It's not ending until the end of June!
Post by: bocahgundul on Sun, 13 March 2016, 23:40:04
I'm done with standard layout yoUgh I'm sad that I need to pass this GB
Why? It's not ending until the end of June!
Post by: hashbaz on Tue, 15 March 2016, 10:11:26
Post by: romevi on Tue, 15 March 2016, 10:14:16
To each their own, for sure, but I really really don't understand passing up this historic GB over a spacebar.
Same. I mean, you can always get another non-standard keyboard.
This keyboard is one of the most iconic. :-\
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 15 March 2016, 19:18:52
You can also buy a fully assembled keyboard with just the small case for the same price, but I recommend getting the original style case as well.
Post by: AKmalamute on Tue, 15 March 2016, 19:28:45
Ugh I'm sad that I need to pass this GB
You could do what I'm doing, and buy just the keyswitch parts ... if you're not looking for a split-keyboard thing you won't have to worry about efficiently passing keystrokes across a variable gap, so you can just buy a XwhatsiT controller and make sure you can fit your layout will fit in that row/column limitation and do the mental math for configuring.
PCBs for these things don't have any vias or solder holes, so that should be moderately inexpensive for just one as such things go. Big Blue Saw for the plates and then all that's left is the 3-d printing for the weird size/shape of your split spacebar.
Doable, in other words. Not a bad summer project actually.
Post by: Bevo on Sun, 20 March 2016, 05:57:35
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 21 March 2016, 20:29:48
I was hoping to start testing and shipping them out individually in May as well, but that is now looking to be late May or June.
Post by: Bevo on Mon, 21 March 2016, 23:59:12
I expect them to ship from the factory towards the end of the April/May timeframe, but things are going slower than expected doing the final pre-production discussions with the factory.
I was hoping to start testing and shipping them out individually in May as well, but that is now looking to be late May or June.
I guess it'll be a birthday present to myself then :)
Post by: atlas3686 on Tue, 22 March 2016, 03:53:07
I expect them to ship from the factory towards the end of the April/May timeframe, but things are going slower than expected doing the final pre-production discussions with the factory.
I was hoping to start testing and shipping them out individually in May as well, but that is now looking to be late May or June.
I guess it'll be a birthday present to myself then :)
Haha me too :)
Post by: Bevo on Tue, 22 March 2016, 03:55:10
Haha hi5! Sure beats socks and tiesI expect them to ship from the factory towards the end of the April/May timeframe, but things are going slower than expected doing the final pre-production discussions with the factory.
I was hoping to start testing and shipping them out individually in May as well, but that is now looking to be late May or June.
I guess it'll be a birthday present to myself then :)
Haha me too :)
Post by: alienman82 on Tue, 22 March 2016, 19:44:40
Post by: atlas3686 on Wed, 23 March 2016, 03:45:36
Haha hi5! Sure beats socks and tiesI expect them to ship from the factory towards the end of the April/May timeframe, but things are going slower than expected doing the final pre-production discussions with the factory.
I was hoping to start testing and shipping them out individually in May as well, but that is now looking to be late May or June.
I guess it'll be a birthday present to myself then :)
Haha me too :)
It definitely does, gonna be one of the better presents to myself :)
Post by: Limewirelord on Wed, 23 March 2016, 13:10:21
Post by: RyanArr on Wed, 23 March 2016, 23:17:42
Are there someone that wants a split spacebar option on the kishsaver? cause I really want a split spacebar :thumb:
If there's enough interest on a split spacebar can we make it happen on the regular round ellipse?
Could probably hack something up by putting a pair of cherry switches in the spacebar area. I thought about this a bit because I want a split kishsaver. I decided that getting the parts and trying to make two cut it half keyboards was too much trouble. Just the split is a comparatively modest modification.
Post by: Jedi on Thu, 24 March 2016, 00:09:25
Post by: Ludovician on Thu, 24 March 2016, 00:29:17
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 25 March 2016, 13:40:41
Post by: joey on Fri, 25 March 2016, 13:45:46
Post by: 3K on Fri, 25 March 2016, 14:19:08
For those interested in the Ultra compact F62/F77 cases, what kind of case colors should be offered? I expect them to be anodized or done with another process, but not powdercoated/painted like the original style cases.
What is the difference between the usual and compact case? Could you post a picture or comparison? Not that I'm too lazy to search, I'm just too stupid too find... :-X
Post by: againer on Fri, 25 March 2016, 16:45:20
Post by: fanpeople on Fri, 25 March 2016, 16:50:04
For those interested in the Ultra compact F62/F77 cases, what kind of case colors should be offered? I expect them to be anodized or done with another process, but not powdercoated/painted like the original style cases.
Purple would be sweet
Post by: Ir0n on Sat, 26 March 2016, 13:37:02
For those interested in the Ultra compact F62/F77 cases, what kind of case colors should be offered? I expect them to be anodized or done with another process, but not powdercoated/painted like the original style cases.
Red of course :p
Post by: Atredl on Sat, 26 March 2016, 18:51:27
For those interested in the Ultra compact F62/F77 cases, what kind of case colors should be offered? I expect them to be anodized or done with another process, but not powdercoated/painted like the original style cases.
Black is a must. I'm getting Industrial Grey for my regular case but I'm also planning on getting a black ultra-compact case for a modern looking buckling spring board.
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 26 March 2016, 23:24:58
For those interested in the Ultra compact F62/F77 cases, what kind of case colors should be offered? I expect them to be anodized or done with another process, but not powdercoated/painted like the original style cases.
If it's anodized then RED, PURPLE and GREEN in that order :thumb: .
Post by: ryahirv on Sun, 27 March 2016, 12:57:13
Post by: ctm on Thu, 31 March 2016, 08:11:14
Post by: ryahirv on Mon, 04 April 2016, 12:26:06
Been quiet in here!
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 04 April 2016, 22:36:46
Regarding the prototyping of the smaller xwhatsit controller being used for this project, the main designer of this updated controller would like some help. Please PM me or post here if you can help with soldering SMT components for a prototype controller that he designed.
This controller is expected to be an open source, more compact version of the xwhatsit Model F controller that is half the width and uses more standard 0.1" pitch ribbon cable.
Post by: lootbag on Tue, 05 April 2016, 00:45:11
If I have never used capacitative buckling springs before, would the IBM Model F AT be a good choice to get a feel for the switch?
I've only had the pleasure of owning a single Model M in my life.
Post by: Techno Trousers on Tue, 05 April 2016, 08:28:25
The best way I can describe the Model F compared to the Model M is that the F is lighter and crisper than the M. To me it has the perfect amount of resistance, tactile bump, auditory feedback, and key travel.
Post by: Ir0n on Tue, 05 April 2016, 16:05:33
Quick question.
If I have never used capacitative buckling springs before, would the IBM Model F AT be a good choice to get a feel for the switch?
I've only had the pleasure of owning a single Model M in my life.
I'd get a AT regardless! it's a great keyboard :] it's my daily driver at the moment
I also got it just for reminding myself what the springs felt like before I ordered a kish
now I'm just glad I have one it was a nice upgrade from my blackwidow lol
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 05 April 2016, 18:30:14
Sorry no photos yet of the keys. Things are going slower than expected but I am still aiming for the end of May for the keyboards to ship from China.
Regarding the prototyping of the smaller xwhatsit controller being used for this project, the main designer of this updated controller would like some help. Please PM me or post here if you can help with soldering SMT components for a prototype controller that he designed.
This controller is expected to be an open source, more compact version of the xwhatsit Model F controller that is half the width and uses more standard 0.1" pitch ribbon cable.
Just messaged you Ellipse - Wanted to make sure you got it as the site didn't seem to give me much reassurance that my "message was sent"..
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 05 April 2016, 21:06:04
Post by: ryahirv on Wed, 06 April 2016, 12:46:05
Yep your message went through.thx - just responded again
Post by: ryahirv on Thu, 14 April 2016, 11:07:30
You still around?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 14 April 2016, 23:09:05
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 15 April 2016, 05:44:55
Yep - sorry for the delay - I'm still not yet ready to take orders for the ultra compact cases - I am hoping to by month end.
Most important part, is to get out all the EARLY original orders that were fully paid up.
Don't fall into the trap of providing EVERYONE with keyboards because it's ONLY the ones that have fully paid up for their original F77s and F62s get theirs first, then worry about those wanting 'special' compact keyboards.
Post by: ryahirv on Fri, 15 April 2016, 10:36:40
Yep - sorry for the delay - I'm still not yet ready to take orders for the ultra compact cases - I am hoping to by month end.
Most important part, is to get out all the EARLY original orders that were fully paid up.
Don't fall into the trap of providing EVERYONE with keyboards because it's ONLY the ones that have fully paid up for their original F77s and F62s get theirs first, then worry about those wanting 'special' compact keyboards.
I think he was responding that way because I ended up backing out of my original F77 early order (but NOT my $100 to help out with tooling, please note) and am now waiting to go directly to a smaller case from the get go.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 15 April 2016, 16:00:09
Right now the priority is to ask for anyone willing to help wcass on DT with the open source redesign of xwhatsit's controller to make it more compact and move the USB port to the top edge of the PCB. This offers two benefits - first it allows me to use standard 0.1" pitch ribbon cable between the capacitive PCB and xwhatsit controller (the original used non-standard 3.96 mm pitch), and second is it allows all components to be fully interchangeable between the original and ultra-compact cases (except for the bottom inner assembly piece) (the USB cable is removable from the outside with the ultra compact case).
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 19 April 2016, 21:28:20
https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/a-smaller-xwhatsit-t13479.html
This is a redesign of xwhatsit's open source controller to make it more compact and move the USB port to the top edge of the PCB. This offers two benefits - first it allows me to use standard 0.1" pitch ribbon cable between the capacitive PCB and xwhatsit controller (the original used non-standard 3.96 mm pitch), and second is it allows all components to be fully interchangeable between the original and ultra-compact cases (except for the bottom inner assembly piece) (the USB cable is removable from the outside with the ultra compact case).
I also posted a group buy update in the GB thread for this project (in summary I am expecting some delays in the project timeline).
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 25 April 2016, 22:59:27
Post by: alienman82 on Mon, 25 April 2016, 23:02:49
Post by: Atredl on Tue, 26 April 2016, 03:58:40
My idea was to get this in black to create an all black trio (F62, HHKB, NerD 60). If it's in the realm of possibility then I would love you forever.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 26 April 2016, 06:51:58
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/mechanical-keyboards-esports-logitech-steelseries
Black keys on black PBT? Who else would like that?
Post by: joey on Tue, 26 April 2016, 06:54:29
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 28 April 2016, 15:34:10
Post by: ryahirv on Thu, 28 April 2016, 15:35:21
Good news - thanks to phosphorglow and wcass the compact xwhatsit controllers are working now! Of course I will do further testing beforehand but it looks like this will not be holding up the project.
SUPERB!!! :D
Thank you to you both!
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 28 April 2016, 15:49:03
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 01 May 2016, 19:32:34
I am looking to order these parts this week (just about all the parts related to the inner assembly).
Sorry I still haven't had a chance to work on the scumnc customized layout - I'm thinking that will be for the second round.
Post by: Ir0n on Tue, 03 May 2016, 05:02:40
I still need to order caps and other things for mine
Post by: ApocalypseMaow on Tue, 03 May 2016, 06:31:35
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 03 May 2016, 16:38:52
Post by: Bevo on Tue, 03 May 2016, 21:31:47
Ir0n I noted in recent weeks that we're looking for everything to ship hopefully by the end of June/July at this point, which is delayed from my original overly-optimistic estimates. The good news is that I was able to upgrade everyone to die cast zinc cases from CNC milled aluminum cases. The ultra compact cases will still be aluminum.
What are the benefits of die cast zinc compared to CNC milled Alu? I would have thought milled alu was an upgrade to casting.
Post by: ika on Tue, 03 May 2016, 21:54:06
Post by: Jedi on Tue, 03 May 2016, 21:55:50
What are the benefits of die cast zinc compared to CNC milled Alu? I would have thought milled alu was an upgrade to casting.
http://www.brillcast.com/aluminum-die-casting.html
TLDR
Advantages of Zinc over Aluminum Die Casting
Weight is a property of zinc that can’t be ignored. It’s roughly 2 ½ times heavier than aluminum
Less machining required for tight tolerances
Superior for decorative finishing
Tough durability
Post by: SixtyLife on Tue, 03 May 2016, 22:35:23
bevo was asking about zinc die cast vs cnc'd aluminum, not vs alu die cast.What are the benefits of die cast zinc compared to CNC milled Alu? I would have thought milled alu was an upgrade to casting.
http://www.brillcast.com/aluminum-die-casting.html
TLDR
Advantages of Zinc over Aluminum Die Casting
Weight is a property of zinc that can’t be ignored. It’s roughly 2 ½ times heavier than aluminum
Less machining required for tight tolerances
Superior for decorative finishing
Tough durability
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 03 May 2016, 22:51:39
SixtyLife the advantage is that the cases will be closer to the originals. The aim of the project is to reproduce the original Model F metal case as closely as possible - the original 4704 cases were die cast zinc or a mix of heavier metals including zinc, to my knowledge.
ika there are no photos of the ultra compact cases at this point. I posted some draft renderings of the F62 version on reddit though.
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 04 May 2016, 21:30:47
SixtyLife the advantage is that the cases will be closer to the originals. The aim of the project is to reproduce the original Model F metal case as closely as possible - the original 4704 cases were die cast zinc or a mix of heavier metals including zinc, to my knowledge.
That is why I am in this Group Buy BECAUSE it's to reproduce the exact same casing of the ORIGINAL 4704. If you did this in Aluminum then I would of bought another Kmac or LZ keyboard instead.
Keep to your original design proposal since that is what caught my interest in the first place :thumb: .
Post by: ryahirv on Wed, 04 May 2016, 21:37:13
SixtyLife the advantage is that the cases will be closer to the originals. The aim of the project is to reproduce the original Model F metal case as closely as possible - the original 4704 cases were die cast zinc or a mix of heavier metals including zinc, to my knowledge.
That is why I am in this Group Buy BECAUSE it's to reproduce the exact same casing of the ORIGINAL 4704. If you did this in Aluminum then I would of bought another Kmac or LZ keyboard instead.
Keep to your original design proposal since that is what caught my interest in the first place :thumb: .
But please don't also forget that many are only interested in the smaller case at some point too!
I'm here for the switches and key feel, not the physical size of the case, which is a huge ergonomic issue for me.
Thank you!!
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 04 May 2016, 22:46:54
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/46y12u/buying_ultra_compact_f62_f77_model_f_cases_draft/?
My current ultra compact case draft is essentially unchanged, save for the sides being a few mm smaller. I went down to a width of the side edges of the case being 2 mm since the feedback was mostly "make the keyboard as compact as possible" - any further and it would affect the strength of the case in my view.
I'd be interested in popular alternative ultra compact case options too if anyone wanted to share. I think aluminum is the best way to go for those cases as opposed to plastic or some combination of the two.
Post by: 3K on Thu, 05 May 2016, 05:50:13
For those who want the ultra compact case option, is the three-piece aluminum case from my reddit post what people are generally looking for?
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/46y12u/buying_ultra_compact_f62_f77_model_f_cases_draft/?
My current ultra compact case draft is essentially unchanged, save for the sides being a few mm smaller. I went down to a width of the side edges of the case being 2 mm since the feedback was mostly "make the keyboard as compact as possible" - any further and it would affect the strength of the case in my view.
I'd be interested in popular alternative ultra compact case options too if anyone wanted to share. I think aluminum is the best way to go for those cases as opposed to plastic or some combination of the two.
Looks pretty damn good.
Post by: RyanArr on Thu, 05 May 2016, 08:30:02
Post by: ryahirv on Thu, 05 May 2016, 10:05:16
Agree with RyanArr - Perhaps a comparison shot to assist the excitement of the size?
Post by: cjhard on Thu, 05 May 2016, 11:28:03
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 07 May 2016, 09:36:38
Here's a size comparison of the ultra compact and original cases:
[attachimg=1]
Post by: ryahirv on Sat, 07 May 2016, 10:48:20
cjhard please see the renderings a few posts above for how the case is expected to look
Here's a size comparison of the ultra compact and original cases:
(Attachment Link)
Seems good to me!
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Sat, 07 May 2016, 18:55:03
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 07 May 2016, 21:01:29
Here's a size comparison of the ultra compact and original cases:
(Attachment Link)
The ORIGINAL still moistens my loins without hesitation 8) .
There's something about a solid large keyboard to use that adds that special level of confidence compared to all the dainty, girl-like stuff being released constantly.
Post by: ryahirv on Sat, 07 May 2016, 23:43:40
Here's a size comparison of the ultra compact and original cases:
(Attachment Link)
The ORIGINAL still moistens my loins without hesitation 8) .
There's something about a solid large keyboard to use that adds that special level of confidence compared to all the dainty, girl-like stuff being released constantly.
lmao - Well, while you "moisten your loins", I'll be excited about the narrower width for my mouse to be closer to center.
:)
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 11 May 2016, 18:22:05
Any product marketing experts? Please PM me if you can send some advice my way! That's the one area I still need a lot of help on. My goal is to get as many of these Brand New Model F keyboards out there as possible before final round production ends.
Post by: dante on Wed, 11 May 2016, 19:29:36
My goal is to get as many of these Brand New Model F keyboards out there as possible before final round production ends.
I suspect there are a silent majority who are waiting for feedback from those who receive round 1. Over the last year quite a few people have gotten burned in group buys so folks are a bit more hesitant now.
If you could get a prototype in the hands of someone like fohat.digs I'm sure that would go pretty far with a lot of folks.
Post by: romevi on Wed, 11 May 2016, 23:05:52
My goal is to get as many of these Brand New Model F keyboards out there as possible before final round production ends.
I suspect there are a silent majority who are waiting for feedback from those who receive round 1. Over the last year quite a few people have gotten burned in group buys so folks are a bit more hesitant now.
If you could get a prototype in the hands of someone like fohat.digs I'm sure that would go pretty far with a lot of folks.
Truthfully, I'm waiting 'til I see some reviews/thoughts from people and also for the ultra slim case. :thumb:
Post by: Atredl on Thu, 12 May 2016, 00:54:38
Post by: phoenix_fire512 on Thu, 12 May 2016, 10:33:49
I suspect there are a silent majority who are waiting for feedback from those who receive round 1. Over the last year quite a few people have gotten burned in group buys so folks are a bit more hesitant now.
If you could get a prototype in the hands of someone like fohat.digs I'm sure that would go pretty far with a lot of folks.
Yes, I basically fall into this category... Although I think this project looks awesome and will most likely live up to the expected quality, it would be nice to see some feedback from others before comitting to an order, considering the price.
I had another question... I'm one of the people that wants to order just the ultra compact version (not as a separate case later, but as the case it comes with). So far I've been waiting for that option to be available on the site before placing an order, but do you recommend I keep waiting for the option to appear on the site or would it be better to place an order without that case and make a note?
Post by: ander on Fri, 13 May 2016, 03:21:56
Post by: supamesican on Fri, 13 May 2016, 08:37:38
before final round production ends.Just found out about this today, when will the final round end? I probably wont have the money for one of these until dec - roughly this time next year(yay moving out of parents...) but man that f77 is one of the most beautiful boards I've ever seen and a new NKRO buckling spring/mode lF board has been my dream board for several years now.
Post by: jjnist on Sat, 14 May 2016, 02:29:16
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 15 May 2016, 11:13:26
I have tested two of the prototypes on 3 different computers (2 desktops and 1 notebook) running Win 7 (one) and Win 10 (two PC's) as well as two different 10 foot USB micro cables and there is an issue: the keyboard stops working after a few minutes and it requires disconnecting and reconnecting the USB cable for it to resume working. Sometimes the threshold in xwhatsit's GUI also resets to a random number, even though I have clicked the store override in EEPROM button and closed and re-opened the utility. I have set column skips where appropriate and that helps make the crashing every few minutes instead of every minute or so.
Also the pad for the "1 !" key shows up as pressed unless the threshold is set to 192 (too high a threshold for any other key to be recognized). Switching the jumper wire for rows 7 and 8 move the affected pad's position on the matrix in xwhatsit's software but it's always the same pad.
Also I saw when testing the columns for strobing that the voltage levels were about 1.7v instead of the 0.7v of the originals and the strobing time was about twice as long (the size of the "rectangles" actually changed depending on which two columns were being tested - possibly due to smaller or more variable trace lengths? This could be due to the smaller board size and total length of the traces and may or may not be an issue affecting operation.
Any extra help is appreciated!
Test with original xwhatsit (1st screenshot) and small xwhatsit (2nd screenshot):
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: joey on Sun, 15 May 2016, 11:34:16
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 15 May 2016, 13:17:40
However I request that you please do not change cases as I have already paid for your case and powdercoating the case for everyone who placed an order (if you feel strongly you want to switch your order to the "small case" camp please PM me). And you'd probably have a delay of a few months in receiving your F62/F77 if you make the switch since the compact cases are likely not part of the early round.
You can also order a spare ultra compact case (just pick the case in the dropdown menu of the F77/F62 case store item) and it will include the bottom inner assembly part.
Full disclosure, there are only renderings at this point of the case design and the design and colors are subject to change, but the innards will be exactly the same as the original cases, except the bottom inner assembly will be less wide to fit inside the smaller case. The inner assembly will not be red as pictured in the renderings; it will be black. The colors and finish shown in the rendering are not accurate. The design is expected to look like a standard high-end custom keyboard project case.
F62 compact case expected dimensions: 31 x 14.5 x 2.5 cm (12.2 x 5.7 x 0.8 in.)
F62 original case approximate dimensions: 36 x 18 x 3 cm (14.2 x 7.1 x 1.2 in.)
The ultra compact case version of the F62 Kishsaver and F77 will have an aluminum case (likely anodized or bead-blasted or the like, not powdercoated) and the USB cable will be removable from the back without requiring you to open up the case.
However please note that this version of the case is secondary priority for me compared to getting out the original style case keyboards to everyone who ordered one. So please expect to get yours with the final round orders, but possibly with the early round orders. Lead time is at least several months.
It is OK if you’d prefer to see the prototype of the case before ordering but I am being asked all the time to get the ultra compact case versions available for order :)
Colors are also not finalized but I expect to have a standard gray (not industrial gray) and black, and possibly other colors like red or blue if anyone’s interested (not confirmed yet). Any suggestions or requests, please let me know.
Also a note that you do not receive the original-style styrofoam packaging with any compact keyboard – the keyboards will be securely packed another way TBD.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
[attachimg=7]
[attachimg=8]
[attachimg=9]
Post by: TieuNgu on Sun, 15 May 2016, 23:03:05
As an update I have been testing the smaller xwhatsit controllers re-designed and assembled by red/wcass/phosphorglow and there are some issues with the prototypes.
I have tested two of the prototypes on 3 different computers (2 desktops and 1 notebook) running Win 7 (one) and Win 10 (two PC's) as well as two different 10 foot USB micro cables and there is an issue: the keyboard stops working after a few minutes and it requires disconnecting and reconnecting the USB cable for it to resume working. Sometimes the threshold in xwhatsit's GUI also resets to a random number, even though I have clicked the store override in EEPROM button and closed and re-opened the utility. I have set column skips where appropriate and that helps make the crashing every few minutes instead of every minute or so.
Also the pad for the "1 !" key shows up as pressed unless the threshold is set to 192 (too high a threshold for any other key to be recognized). Switching the jumper wire for rows 7 and 8 move the affected pad's position on the matrix in xwhatsit's software but it's always the same pad.
Also I saw when testing the columns for strobing that the voltage levels were about 1.7v instead of the 0.7v of the originals and the strobing time was about twice as long (the size of the "rectangles" actually changed depending on which two columns were being tested - possibly due to smaller or more variable trace lengths? This could be due to the smaller board size and total length of the traces and may or may not be an issue affecting operation.
Any extra help is appreciated!
Test with original xwhatsit (1st screenshot) and small xwhatsit (2nd screenshot):
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
Awesome job Ellipse!!!
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 16 May 2016, 21:23:56
Post by: joinhandmade on Tue, 17 May 2016, 11:19:31
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 18 May 2016, 18:04:55
Post by: Melvang on Tue, 24 May 2016, 14:38:13
Post by: romevi on Tue, 24 May 2016, 15:01:00
With the production delays and tweaks, has the ordering deadline for the primary round been pushed back or is it still the end of June?
I hope it's been pushed, especially considering we probably won't see final boards in people's hands by the end of next month. I, and many others, was hoping to see some first-hand impressions before ordering.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 24 May 2016, 17:43:51
Post by: dante on Tue, 24 May 2016, 20:02:48
His opinion carries weight.
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 25 May 2016, 00:27:55
I don't know if fohat.digs ordered in the first batch but if he did it would be wise to get him to write a review.
His opinion carries weight.
Have to agree, Fohat has 100% trust here on this forum so his viewpoint will be the last and only one that matters.
Be sure, Ellipse that you send out the very best made F77 or F62 keyboard because it shall be the one that signals the whole world to jump on in and BUY 8) .
Make it so........
Post by: hashbaz on Wed, 25 May 2016, 12:25:23
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 25 May 2016, 17:18:46
As of yet he is not in the early bird group buy - if anyone is willing to loan their keyboard out to fohat I'd appreciate it!
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 29 May 2016, 13:38:06
Post by: romevi on Sun, 29 May 2016, 13:56:58
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 29 May 2016, 14:49:46
Post by: Techno Trousers on Sun, 29 May 2016, 15:20:19
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 31 May 2016, 22:53:01
And in case anyone's interested I posted part of my Vice-Motherboard interview on the GB thread (please keep discussion over there to minimize duplication).
Here's the link to the article: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/mechanical-keyboards-esports-logitech-steelseries
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 01 June 2016, 19:15:04
I'm still coordinating with the factory on the small cases. Ultra compact case keyboard prototypes will not be made and tested for at least a month.
Post by: ryahirv on Sun, 05 June 2016, 22:58:30
Is it posted anywhere the dimensions of the case in the area between the front and the space bar?
I'd be really keen to know, on both case designs, the width of the "bezel/case" in the front from edge to the start of the keys if you'd be so kind.
I'm using a Contour RollerMouse Red now and that distance is sort of critical (the keys as close to the Roller mouse as possible).
Does that make sense?
Many thanks if you're able to share those numbers...
Cheers!
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 05 June 2016, 23:15:41
Post by: ryahirv on Sun, 05 June 2016, 23:17:45
It's 3/4" on the original style cases and about 2/3" on the ultra compact cases
Thank you!
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 07 June 2016, 19:22:53
I'm going to take better photos of the layouts and their descriptions once the early bird keyboards come in.
The difference is in a few keys which are different.
This photo best explains a good approximation of the HHKB style layout.
Besides some cosmetic changes in the labeling of the keys, the HHKB shifts the 2 barrels in the right shift area a few mm from their normal positions to allow for a short right shift (the caps lock key in the split right shift area of the photo you linked to) as well as a 1U key to the right of that key.
If I go through with my own keys, there will not be any stepped keys except ISO enter for the international layout folks.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 08 June 2016, 01:43:45
This photo best explains a good approximation of the HHKB style layout.
Besides some cosmetic changes in the labeling of the keys, the HHKB shifts the 2 barrels in the right shift area a few mm from their normal positions to allow for a short right shift (the caps lock key in the split right shift area of the photo you linked to) as well as a 1U key to the right of that key.
If I go through with my own keys, there will not be any stepped keys except ISO enter for the international layout folks.
(Attachment Link)
For pity sake Ellipse, why are you even contemplating wasting time for these pathetic HHKB users?
Honestly for christ sake, if they LOVE their HHKBs then why are they here? They all say how perfect their HHKB keyboards are already so what gives?
Please explain why these cretins wanting you to make for them a Model-F keyboard in the horrid HHKB layout because it doesn't make sense and it keeps the rest of us from receiving OUR original designs, which we have already paid for. Never prostate yourself to any cretinous HHKB user because frankly they can go elsewhere or they can go rub their HHKB where the sun don't shine (preferably).
Sick and tired or decent people trying to placate these morons wanting a HHKB layout and I can't keep quiet anymore, this has to be said.
Post by: Muffinbottoms on Wed, 08 June 2016, 02:03:26
MoreThis photo best explains a good approximation of the HHKB style layout.
Besides some cosmetic changes in the labeling of the keys, the HHKB shifts the 2 barrels in the right shift area a few mm from their normal positions to allow for a short right shift (the caps lock key in the split right shift area of the photo you linked to) as well as a 1U key to the right of that key.
If I go through with my own keys, there will not be any stepped keys except ISO enter for the international layout folks.
(Attachment Link)
For pity sake Ellipse, why are you even contemplating wasting time for these pathetic HHKB users?
Honestly for christ sake, if they LOVE their HHKBs then why are they here? They all say how perfect their HHKB keyboards are already so what gives?
Please explain why these cretins wanting you to make for them a Model-F keyboard in the horrid HHKB layout because it doesn't make sense and it keeps the rest of us from receiving OUR original designs, which we have already paid for. Never prostate yourself to any cretinous HHKB user because frankly they can go elsewhere or they can go rub their HHKB where the sun don't shine (preferably).
Sick and tired or decent people trying to placate these morons wanting a HHKB layout and I can't keep quiet anymore, this has to be said.
You do know the HHKB layout has been mentioned and planned for since the first page of this project haha?
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 08 June 2016, 03:25:15
You do know the HHKB layout has been mentioned and planned for since the first page of this project haha?
Why should it, since every tosser who owns a HHKB keeps lauding over all of us, how superior their keyboard is hence why push someone to make them a Model-F version, what's the purpose since the 45g Topre is already so superior (according to those freaks) 8) .
All it's doing is torturing Ellipse into wasting his valuable time searching for those stupid keys ONLY an idiot HHKB user would need.
Time for Ellipse to cut the rope and let the HHKB users sink into the dark cold sea by themselves. Time to ONLY concentrate upon those who love the original layout of this keyboard so go with the flow and support those that want a REAL Model-F and not some pathetic copy of a HHKB, it's bad enough for having HHKBs around in the first place but wasting time making another one for those ingrates, its just not worth it in any way, shape or form.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 08 June 2016, 06:13:06
For those who have not been following, we lost a month due to factory delays with the case molds so the project is behind its original schedule. I am hoping for it to ship from China in late July/August.
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 08 June 2016, 20:02:59
Hi Elrick, HHKB is not delaying the project as it was offered from the start of orders in late January.
I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.
With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.
HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice >:D . There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me 8) .
Post by: ryahirv on Wed, 08 June 2016, 21:30:02
Hi Elrick, HHKB is not delaying the project as it was offered from the start of orders in late January.
I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.
With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.
HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice >:D . There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me 8) .
Is there no way for you to be a bit more polite and less aggressive in your posts?
This level of negativity, towards anyone else here, simply isn't warranted.
Post by: muon on Wed, 08 June 2016, 22:55:04
I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.
With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.
HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice >:D . There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me 8) .
careful, you might cut yourself on all that edginess
Post by: Bevo on Wed, 08 June 2016, 23:26:49
Hi Elrick, HHKB is not delaying the project as it was offered from the start of orders in late January.
I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.
With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.
HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice >:D . There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me 8) .
Is there no way for you to be a bit more polite and less aggressive in your posts?
This level of negativity, towards anyone else here, simply isn't warranted.
I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.
With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.
HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice >:D . There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me 8) .
careful, you might cut yourself on all that edginess
You guys must be new here. Meet Elrick ;)
Post by: romevi on Thu, 09 June 2016, 00:27:47
Hi Elrick, HHKB is not delaying the project as it was offered from the start of orders in late January.
I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.
With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.
HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice >:D . There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me 8) .
Is there no way for you to be a bit more polite and less aggressive in your posts?
This level of negativity, towards anyone else here, simply isn't warranted.
I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.
With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.
HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice >:D . There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me 8) .
careful, you might cut yourself on all that edginess
You guys must be new here. Meet Elrick ;)
F'real.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 11 June 2016, 16:25:30
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 14 June 2016, 20:17:55
The early bird deadline passed but I decided to make some extra units for the early bird round and keep accepting orders until stock runs out, then orders will be fulfilled in the final round after supply runs out (I'll put up a note on the web site when that happens). But I would recommend ordering soon just so you don't have to wait an extra few months when I gather the final round orders.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 20 June 2016, 19:37:25
Post by: againer on Sat, 25 June 2016, 07:33:57
Is there any chance that you will print a siwss iso layout?
Or is it possible to print only one layer on the keycaps so that ppl with less used layouts can place them correct, without the second and third layer not matching?
Per example only print the numbers without the !+"... addtition so that they match any layout.
If you gonna print your own keycaps will you print noveltys?
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 25 June 2016, 11:11:47
Yes I have some Swiss ISO layout orders. I will either order those sets from unicomp or hopefully order them with the new keys.
I don't expect to print custom keycaps - if there's a special original IBM key cap you want please let me know and I'll check out the cost in a few weeks from now once the legends are to be dye sublimated onto the keys.
Post by: Cods on Sun, 26 June 2016, 02:40:33
Hi Elrick, HHKB is not delaying the project as it was offered from the start of orders in late January.
I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.
With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.
HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice >:D . There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me 8) .
Steady on, mate. I know you've been here a million years and have seen heaps of GBs come and go (and fail, delay because of dithering, take too long because of pandering to edge cases, etc), but the layout was offered from the start, and Ellipse has said it's not holding anything up, so it's kinda hard to understand your drama with it all. On top of that, Ellipse seems to be pretty solidly pro with managing a complex project, so unless this is the best run and largest keyboard scam of all time (possible, but I'm calling it as unlikely based on current performance) then I reckon it's not that big a deal. YMMV.
I own no HHKBs, have relegated my one Topre FC660C to the family computer (not much of a fan of the switch), coughed up for helping out with the earlybird tooling*, and ordered both an F62 and an F77 on the earlybird order.
And yet... I went with the HHKB layout on one of them, and classic layout on the other. Because I felt like it, and figured another key might come in handy.
Or are you just a bit grumpy because it's a tad cold in NSW? ;)
Cheers, Cods.
[edit: words missing from end of first para, after the... ellipses. OK, brackets. Oh, I crack myself up. Added "... then I reckon it's not that big a deal. YMMV."]
* 'tooling' tee tee hee
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 26 June 2016, 21:04:58
The one "stuck" 1 ! key was likely user error (my error) as I connected the controller to the capacitive PCB for testing by jumper wires which I now know are probably too long for reliable operation. phosphorglow connected my F77 PCB to the compact xwhatsit controller with shorter wire and the stuck key was resolved.
Thanks again to all the hard work of red, wcass, phosphorglow, and joc for making the compact xwhatsit controller a reality!
Post by: atlas3686 on Mon, 27 June 2016, 07:05:16
Good news - the compact xwhatsit controllers are now problem free! joc just sent me his latest firmware with alternative debounce filter which has 100% fixed all issues. wcass and phosphorglow's work on the updated prototype controller fixed the other issues with voltages.
The one "stuck" 1 ! key was likely user error (my error) as I connected the controller to the capacitive PCB for testing by jumper wires which I now know are probably too long for reliable operation. phosphorglow connected my F77 PCB to the compact xwhatsit controller with shorter wire and the stuck key was resolved.
Thanks again to all the hard work of red, wcass, phosphorglow, and joc for making the compact xwhatsit controller a reality!
Thanks so much for the hard work guys, very much appreciated.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 01 July 2016, 17:33:09
Here is a link showing different finishing options: http://blog.jdslabs.com/?p=580
And are are some photos that the author has generously allowed me to re-post on his bead blast + bright dip finish for his custom audio console box - it turned out very well in my opinion:
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
Post by: dante on Fri, 01 July 2016, 17:49:36
Post by: tassadarforaiur on Fri, 01 July 2016, 17:54:52
Post by: Xovaan on Sat, 02 July 2016, 23:55:15
Hey guys!
A few clarifications on finish as well that I forgot to mention to Ellipse:
Durability is first and foremost a byproduct of how long the aluminum stays in the anodize tank. Second to this is minimizing angles on the piece, as the anodize is thinner around edges. Third is the material itself. You can make really tough Type II coatings, but I agree that Type III has the best abrasion/scratch resistance.
(http://i.imgur.com/KyTSL0g.jpg)
Cases like those seen from Tex or P0k3r are a simple Type II anodize, similar to the one seen on my amplifier above, usually with a pretreatment to bring back luster lost from the bead blast. Macbooks and iPhones also use a Type II in this fashion. Granted, I'm not discounting Type III, just making note that we use Type II anodize in our products daily with no ill effects. It's also important to note that a bead blast anodize without a bright dip pretreatment will give the keyboard chassis an AR lower receiver-style look, meaning more of a frosty gray than a true sheen, and will also show fingerprints more than other finishes. Bright dip pre-treatment brings back this luster. Think spray painting your car flat black (gray, dusty/frosty) versus a vinyl wrap or true semigloss satin.
I should also add that "clear" Type III hardcoat anodize will color the metal depending on the type of metal used. Source: http://www.midstal.com/sft334/aluminum_reference_guide.pdf
(http://i.imgur.com/tmgvhUm.jpg)
Tank time also affects the coloration, as seen below:
(http://i.imgur.com/Tg32gj8.png)
These are all "clear" Type III hardcoat anodize with increasing coat thicknesses, from left to right. Source (http://www.omwcorp.com/understandingano/anoindex.html)
Update: You can indeed pretreat with phosphoric acid / bright dip / chemical polish prior to a Type III hard coat! I'd imagine it to be the be-all-end-all to durability without a sacrifice to aesthetics.
This said, I believe what we're looking for is something along these lines:
1. A case with no 90* angles (see first picture-- 0.015 radius ensures full coverage) around potential wear and abuse points to prevent chipping of the finish
2. An aluminum that satisfies those looking for a "clear" anodize, based on that table above
3. Glass bead blast medium, starting with a low psi and working upward until all surface abnormalities and marks are removed.
4. "Bright dip" phosphoric / chemical polish / pre-treatment of the aluminum to bring luster to the anodize
5. Type III hardcoat: clear (natural), black, gray, etc.
Metal finishing is extremely tribal knowledge; unfortunately I don't have any pictures of these possible finishes offhand outside of my amplifier posted above. Everything I've learned has been through rigorous research in my own DIY projects and visiting several metal finishing shops in my area. It would definitely be beneficial to get in contact with a shop that has samples of each of these styles to see what works best for everyone!
Post by: Bevo on Sun, 03 July 2016, 09:15:59
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 03 July 2016, 09:41:22
Bevo they are expected to ship from China in August, and will probably start shipping out individually in September (sea mail shipping will take a month from China).
Post by: kawasaki161 on Sun, 03 July 2016, 11:13:14
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 03 July 2016, 11:39:23
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 07 July 2016, 21:32:20
Will we be able to see pictures of an ultra compact prototype before the final round deadline? I just feel that it would be a lot of money to drop on something of which I don't even know how it compares to the original.
If you are a TRUE Believer, then you don't need proof, you just NEED to BELIEVE - that this is the ONE and ONLY Keyboard to ever own in your Life 8) .
Post by: kawasaki161 on Thu, 07 July 2016, 21:43:52
this is the ONE and ONLY Keyboard to ever own in your Life 8) .
That made me chuckle, you don't even believe that yourself, do you?
Either way, I know that the OG-style cases will be too big for my purposes, I just like comparisons that's all :)
Post by: stoic-lemon on Fri, 08 July 2016, 02:54:12
this is the ONE and ONLY Keyboard to ever own in your Life 8) .
That made me chuckle, you don't even believe that yourself, do you?
Either way, I know that the OG-style cases will be too big for my purposes, I just like comparisons that's all :)
It's sounds silly, but that is kind of where I am at the minute. I know I want the smaller case F77, and the only thing that will really turn me off to it would be if it ends up looking like some of those spiky led filled gaming keyboards you find on Taobao. I know this is not going to happen, so it is essentially irrelevant waiting until I see the final board.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 08 July 2016, 21:26:31
Post by: stoic-lemon on Sat, 09 July 2016, 01:43:24
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 09 July 2016, 22:24:56
stoic the intention is to make the ultra compact case keyboards hard anodized for ultimate durability - a non-glossy finish to the aluminum.
Damn you Ellipse for offering this.
Now I want a compact case for my F77 as well. Hard anodized is superb, far better than spray painted finishes plus would last for ever.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 12 July 2016, 18:14:51
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 13 July 2016, 22:18:41
And Elrick, the compact cases are now available to order separately if you'd prefer to switch between the two. They include the bottom inner assembly which is the only different part (the other parts are all interchangeable).
Lets not get too excited by the so-called slimmer casings here.
Still want the whole Zinc case simply because I've always wanted one for years and now is the perfect time to attain one to work with any latest OS and PC.
Once I receive my Heavenly F77 (original design) then I might fork out extra money for a slimmer cased F77 layout. Just want to receive my first order then decide to buy another with the Slim Case Design.
Genuinely want at least two versions of your F77, completed with all the keys installed ready to be connected up to two PC setups.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 13 July 2016, 23:02:38
Post by: ThoughtArtist on Thu, 14 July 2016, 00:54:39
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 14 July 2016, 06:34:47
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 16 July 2016, 16:15:39
Post by: kawasaki161 on Sat, 16 July 2016, 16:33:02
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 16 July 2016, 16:50:42
Post by: Elrick on Sat, 16 July 2016, 19:56:42
Zinc is about 2.6 times as heavy as aluminum.
You would have to add extra mass like a large Brass Plate, to even out the weight with our Zinc Cases ;D .
It would have to end up looking like an LZ Designed Keyboard in the end.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 30 July 2016, 17:47:11
Post by: HighPlainsDrafter on Mon, 01 August 2016, 04:17:46
Post by: phoenix_fire512 on Tue, 02 August 2016, 12:14:15
Would any of the ultra-compact case fans be interested in ordering a heavier zinc ultra-compact case of the same dimensions and design?
I am also interested in the zinc case. Would there be any cost difference? Would it really be that much more durable than the hard anodized aluminum? Are there any other practical differences between the two?
The extra weight of zinc sounds nice but durability is the factor I really value, so if there is much of a cost difference I am fine sticking with the standard case (which seems it should be quite durable already).
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 04 August 2016, 19:55:47
phoenix_fire I don't think there will be a significant cost difference - I need to confirm with the factory. I don't know what the zinc finish will be but I expect it to be durable as well (not sure which would be more durable just yet). The main difference is in the weight. The F62 and F77 keyboards I've been using since January as my daily drivers are solid feeling even though the prototype cases were made of aluminum instead of zinc, so either option will be very solid!
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 06 August 2016, 21:06:43
Post by: MaNiFeX on Tue, 09 August 2016, 13:23:00
Yes romevi. I am hoping to extend the deadline to allow the early bird keyboards to arrive from China, be fully tested on my side, ship out to everyone for testing/usage for at least a month or two but am wondering how much time everyone thinks should be allowed. Too little time and people miss out of the final round, but too much time and those people end up waiting a while to get their order.
I'm running into this issue with my current group buy. I'd say 2-4 weeks of buy period is optimal. Long enough for people not to miss (and spans a couple pay periods), but short enough for people not to forget!
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 10 August 2016, 20:18:54
Post by: ctm on Sun, 14 August 2016, 16:25:44
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 14 August 2016, 16:35:43
The barrels and flippers finished production a couple months ago.
The case molds finished production last month and I will be getting sample cases early this week for approval to start production.
The PCBs and ribbon cables are in production currently.
The rest of the parts (including keys) are expected to start production later this month.
The 1.75U unstepped key mold is being produced and you will be able to order this key separately later on. To cover the extra mold costs though, this key will not be cheap.
Everyone gets a full set if they order a set of keys, not just the ones that fit on the keyboard. So if you order an Industrial SSK 12 key set along with a full key set, the Industrial SSK keys will be installed on the keyboard but you also get the original color and legend keys as part of the set that everyone else is getting - they will be included in a plastic bag in the box.
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 17 August 2016, 17:40:03
Post by: HighPlainsDrafter on Sun, 21 August 2016, 02:44:08
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 27 August 2016, 20:01:09
Post by: phoenix_fire512 on Wed, 31 August 2016, 08:25:12
phoenix_fire I don't think there will be a significant cost difference - I need to confirm with the factory. I don't know what the zinc finish will be but I expect it to be durable as well (not sure which would be more durable just yet). The main difference is in the weight. The F62 and F77 keyboards I've been using since January as my daily drivers are solid feeling even though the prototype cases were made of aluminum instead of zinc, so either option will be very solid!
Ok, so put me down as interested but waiting to hear back on the price.
Also, if any manufacturing difficulties or extra costs on your end come up in trying to get the zinc ultra-compact case, don't feel obligated... I'd rather save you those troubles as I think it's clear now that the anodized aluminum case would still be plenty durable for my standards (and presumably for others too).
Excited to see the progress on this project!
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 31 August 2016, 20:51:03
Yes the zinc option is low priority at this point. I am focusing on getting the factory to finalize everything and get the remaining parts in production.
Post by: Elrick on Thu, 01 September 2016, 03:41:35
I will not ship out anything that is below my standards for this project.
Ellipse, this is the PRC for christ sake so please don't go thinking it will be made to some perfect specifications, like it would be done in Germany or Switzerland.
You will have to make allowances otherwise this project of yours will be one huge Mill-stone around your neck, completely paralyzing you from doing anything else.
Even Unicomp won't go overboard in making their keyboards, it's just enough so it works and nothing more.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 05 September 2016, 19:40:41
Elrick the factory does very good work to my exact specifications with tolerances of about 0.2 mm or better - even high end manufactured goods are often made in China in recent years. They did not do a good job matching the colors and powdercoating texture and are taking longer than expected, that's the down side.
Post by: Jedi on Mon, 05 September 2016, 20:32:48
Anyone interested in pad printed black Model M / Model F keys from the new molds? I am looking into pad printing some of the new black one-piece keys - if you're interested please post here or PM me. It will be an added cost, probably $20 or more in my estimate, but the only other way to get printed black Model M /Model F keys is by buying an entire black rare Model M keyboard. The default option is black unprinted so no one's order is being changed unless they want it changed.
YGPM. I think black keys on Pantone Red will go very well together.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 15 September 2016, 16:36:22
Post by: Jedi on Fri, 16 September 2016, 04:44:57
Only a few people are interested in the pad printed legends so far. I don't think there's enough interest for a production run of them.
Sounds good, probably better too that we ditch the effort given pad printing.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 19 September 2016, 21:36:17
Post by: iamtootallforthis on Mon, 19 September 2016, 22:42:26
ok, what about laser etched keys? Anyone interested in those?
Once I can get the capital I would really prefer dyesub.
Post by: Elrick on Tue, 20 September 2016, 19:24:54
ok, what about laser etched keys? Anyone interested in those?
For a brief second I thought you were kidding here, right :o ?
Anyone selling Laser Etched Keys needs to be buried up to his neck in sand near any coastal beach. Of course waiting for the incoming tide to wash away this foolishness and leaving them there to feed all the crabs and sea gulls, will help to fix their ignorance once and for all.
NO usage or selling of any Laser Etched Keys are allowed for ANY Model-F Keyboard. It's like selling a Ferrari and putting two inch wide cheap rubber wheels on all corners of that beautiful car, don't commit a travesty such as that Ellipse.
Post by: Bevo on Wed, 21 September 2016, 01:53:36
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 23 September 2016, 15:34:25
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 23 September 2016, 16:19:03
Similar to this: http://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=117&cp_id=11703&cs_id=1170305&p_id=10621&seq=1&format=2
I can offer them for $58.39 if there are 50 or more orders.
Post by: cjhard on Fri, 23 September 2016, 20:35:41
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 24 September 2016, 11:39:14
The lightweight cases would run $38 including custom cut foam in QTY 50 or more. The other cases themselves weigh about 10 pounds I think. These cases probably weigh a few pounds at most.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: cjhard on Sat, 24 September 2016, 11:49:30
Would the IP67 certified boxes theoretically protect my F62 in the event of (tap wood it never happens) car wreck? That's kinda my biggest fear carrying my boards around with me, is losing them in that way.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 24 September 2016, 12:23:31
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 25 September 2016, 04:17:41
IP67 protects against dust or immersion; I don't know about crush or impact resistance of the case or foam.
If you're going for the heavy black case then it should survive the pass over a simple pedestrian vehicle.
BUT of course a 45 Tonne Caterpillar, there will be no survivors once it passes over your case that has your darling Model-F still inside. Would be very sad seeing the owner cry after that disaster or even witness what a Model-F would look like after being abused in that way.
Post by: Bevo on Sun, 25 September 2016, 08:20:21
IP67 protects against dust or immersion; I don't know about crush or impact resistance of the case or foam.
If you're going for the heavy black case then it should survive the pass over a simple pedestrian vehicle.
BUT of course a 45 Tonne Caterpillar, there will be no survivors once it passes over your case that has your darling Model-F still inside. Would be very sad seeing the owner cry after that disaster or even witness what a Model-F would look like after being abused in that way.
Why would you have your model F on the road so that a caterpillar is able to drive over it?
Post by: Elrick on Sun, 25 September 2016, 22:34:27
Why would you have your model F on the road so that a caterpillar is able to drive over it?
Car accident sunshine. You're stuck inside the wreckage but you see your loved Model-F case flung out onto the road, then a Caterpillar will appear to totally crush your world and I know when I witness something as horrific as that, I wouldn't want to live anymore.
The Mrs would be happy to inherit everything, so I suppose it's all good for someone in the end 8) .
Post by: Ir0n on Mon, 26 September 2016, 01:51:19
Why would you have your model F on the road so that a caterpillar is able to drive over it?
Car accident sunshine. You're stuck inside the wreckage but you see your loved Model-F case flung out onto the road, then a Caterpillar will appear to totally crush your world and I know when I witness something as horrific as that, I wouldn't want to live anymore.
The Mrs would be happy to inherit everything, so I suppose it's all good for someone in the end 8) .
Lmao oh my..What a series of unfortunate events.
Post by: Elrick on Mon, 26 September 2016, 02:03:46
Lmao oh my..What a series of unfortunate events.
The Sad Life of an Old Geekhacker will always end in tears and misfortune 8) .
A word to the young here, the more you love keyboards the more it shall kick you in the teeth and leave you toothless in the end.
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 26 September 2016, 21:54:38
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 29 September 2016, 22:59:11
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 30 September 2016, 15:41:47
My unprinted black keys will be PBT so they will not have those issues. I also looked into pad printing black ABS keys from my molds but there was no interest so I am not going forward with that.
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 30 September 2016, 19:21:56
My unprinted black keys will be PBT so they will not have those issues. I also looked into pad printing black ABS keys from my molds but there was no interest so I am not going forward with that.
Too right here, no one wants anymore ABS keys in any format.
WE ALL WANT PBT or NOTHING at ALL 8) .
Model-F and ABS - does not compute in any language whatsoever. Leave all ABS to the poor Cherry-felchers, it's all they can afford besides owning an already substandard type of keyboard.
Post by: WNovizar on Fri, 30 September 2016, 20:08:12
I also found out a likely explanation for the shininess of Unicomp's black keys. They may have been made not with PBT plastic but with ABS, which tends to shine after a while, or another type of resin. PBT plastic is not a good match for pad printing according to some pad printers I've spoken with.
My unprinted black keys will be PBT so they will not have those issues. I also looked into pad printing black ABS keys from my molds but there was no interest so I am not going forward with that.
Hello ellipse. I pmd you yesterday so please answer it asap
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 02 October 2016, 19:03:05
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 05 October 2016, 22:59:32
I am also planning a limited edition "full Industrial SSK blue" PBT key set if anyone's interested - please let me know your interest. Printed and unprinted sets will be available. The factory is matching the blue color from keys I mailed them from my original Industrial SSK. I don't expect to do any other colors given the MOQs for the different plastic colors.
Post by: Jedi on Thu, 06 October 2016, 14:09:27
ok there will be no ABS keys - they are going to be PBT. I am also planning a limited edition "full Industrial SSK blue" PBT key set
I am interested in blue keys but does that mean there would be no beige keys for sale?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 06 October 2016, 16:22:45
Post by: Atredl on Thu, 06 October 2016, 17:23:56
ok there will be no ABS keys - they are going to be PBT.
I am also planning a limited edition "full Industrial SSK blue" PBT key set if anyone's interested - please let me know your interest. Printed and unprinted sets will be available. The factory is matching the blue color from keys I mailed them from my original Industrial SSK. I don't expect to do any other colors given the MOQs for the different plastic colors.
Will this just include the blue keys that originally came on the industrial SSK?
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 06 October 2016, 17:27:29
I am also planning on offering the full 104 key set with all keys in Industrial SSK blue. The legends will likely be the standard legends for all the keys (or maybe standard legends and the 12 Industrial SSK keys being their custom legends on the Industrial SSK).
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 07 October 2016, 19:54:12
I am also planning on offering the full 104 key set with all keys in Industrial SSK blue. The legends will likely be the standard legends for all the keys (or maybe standard legends and the 12 Industrial SSK keys being their custom legends on the Industrial SSK).
Very Interesting, looking for some full on 104 key action in SSK Blue 8) :thumb: .
Please also offer it as the old standard 101 keys, for all the older keyboards wanting an upgrade.
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 08 October 2016, 21:49:52
Post by: Cods on Sat, 08 October 2016, 23:18:40
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 08 October 2016, 23:36:10
For now I'm going to offer it at the same price as a regular set.
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 14 October 2016, 22:22:24
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 17 October 2016, 17:00:20
Post by: shrubkeys on Fri, 28 October 2016, 22:42:31
Post by: richvs on Tue, 01 November 2016, 17:59:47
Wow. Congratulations on an excellent project; I've signed up here just for this.
I'm interested in your front printed Fn keys in a UK format. I've sent an email (actually a few :D).
I'm also keen on a front-print of Esc on the upper-left key and an Fn key in the front-print colour (for the split right shift position).
Is it possible to print the top numerals/symbols as black dyesub and only use the green colour for the front-print?
This would make the keyboard more intuitive if someone else wanted to use it (if I were to let them!).
Cheers!
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 05 November 2016, 11:11:06
Post by: Ellipse on Sun, 06 November 2016, 15:27:52
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 15 November 2016, 22:57:20
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 21 November 2016, 20:34:21
Post by: stoic-lemon on Mon, 21 November 2016, 23:12:04
Post by: kawasaki161 on Tue, 22 November 2016, 02:26:50
Post by: Cods on Tue, 22 November 2016, 14:38:42
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 22 November 2016, 16:50:17
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 22 November 2016, 17:29:06
Yes it's programmable with a GUI and the software and firmware are open source.
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 22 November 2016, 18:42:21
Post by: Ellipse on Sat, 26 November 2016, 14:17:27
Pages 6 through 14 are most relevant.
If you are interested in the xwhatsit project development history and technical underpinnings of the xwhatsit keyboard controller used in this project, please take a look at this article: http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb-web/ibm-capsense-usb.html
Post by: pixelpusher on Tue, 29 November 2016, 23:07:17
Post by: Elrick on Wed, 30 November 2016, 01:39:56
boom. ordered. I'm now poor.
No you're not, you are now part of something far greater 8) .
Post by: supamesican on Wed, 30 November 2016, 17:42:45
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 30 November 2016, 17:55:44
Post by: supamesican on Wed, 30 November 2016, 19:56:27
Can't wait to type on that 77, I have a few classic model fs, but man a new one fresh out of the box thats nice and programmable is going to be so awesome! I think I may be at end game now unless I can find a cheap f 122 key to just sit on the shelf in my china cabinet.
Post by: supamesican on Thu, 01 December 2016, 08:56:25
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 01 December 2016, 10:49:26
Post by: supamesican on Thu, 01 December 2016, 11:49:41
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 01 December 2016, 14:13:33
Oh thats easy, ugh the hype is building quickly.
I'll wait and see if I have issues before I would call it "easy", but yes, in theory it should be easy. The only thing that is worrisome to me is the lengthy section in the instructions on dialing in the voltage calibration. Maybe it won't be as daunting as it seems upon first read. I'm willing to tough it out for such an beautifully designed piece of hardware.
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 01 December 2016, 16:03:45
Post by: pixelpusher on Thu, 01 December 2016, 16:22:42
They will come preprogrammed and tested with voltage settings, though you will need to customize the layout with the GUI if you want something slightly different than what it comes with.
Well that makes me feel a lot more confident. I can certainly map keys. Glad to hear it!
Post by: supamesican on Fri, 02 December 2016, 07:59:42
They will come preprogrammed and tested with voltage settings, though you will need to customize the layout with the GUI if you want something slightly different than what it comes with.
Thats what I was expecting, that should be easy enough. If I can code a gui I should be able to use one.
Post by: supamesican on Thu, 08 December 2016, 10:38:21
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 09 December 2016, 16:49:15
Post by: supamesican on Fri, 09 December 2016, 18:27:58
EDIT: aaaaaaaaand done! = D
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 12 December 2016, 16:49:06
Post by: Atredl on Mon, 12 December 2016, 17:45:02
Great! The HHKB layout with split right shift is a popular layout choice - I did not know so many people preferred it over the ANSI layout.
I can't speak for everyone but for me it really brings the 60% layout alive. Without it I'm left stretching my pinky in an uncomfortable way to reach the bottom row when using the function layer. With that more easily accessible fn key, using the function layer becomes much easier while still being able to have Ctrl in the Caps lock location. Now everything is comfortably accessible from the home row.
In my humble opinion, the split right shift with a proper Ctrl location should really be part of the standard 60% layout. I'd also prefer hhkb style backspace location but that's more personal preference.
Post by: supamesican on Mon, 12 December 2016, 17:46:58
Post by: Ellipse on Mon, 12 December 2016, 22:20:54
Post by: evoman on Tue, 13 December 2016, 07:55:26
I have keycaps on other boards, but would prefer to not dismantle any of the ones I have on hand
Post by: ipreferpie on Tue, 13 December 2016, 09:43:38
Post by: supamesican on Tue, 13 December 2016, 18:24:19
How difficult would it be to make cherry MX compatible stems for this? I'd like a hhkb style layout with the fn key. Why not make a modern version of the classic.not sure if srs or troll
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 14 December 2016, 19:04:18
ipreferpie (replied over email)
Vizir I now offer a modern version of this keyboard in the form of the ultra compact case F62 and F77 (we recently reached our 50th compact case keyboard order!). It was designed to match the high end modern Cherry MX custom keyboard offerings out there. I also offer these modern keyboards with HHKB style layout with Fn key. This keyboard is using solid one-piece PBT keys made with brand new molds. I'd imagine any plastic Cherry MX to buckling spring adapter piece would make the keys wobbly and flimsy to type on, whether or not it is possible to do. Also the keyboard would look odd with the MX keys sitting much higher up with the barrels exposed more, given the characteristics of the MX key compared to the buckling spring key.
Post by: Ellipse on Tue, 20 December 2016, 14:20:18
Who wants to see a video of the keyboard in action?
Post by: ryahirv on Tue, 20 December 2016, 14:21:27
An update - I am expecting the completed ultra compact case prototype by year end.
Who wants to see a video of the keyboard in action?
Or course! Please make a video for sure!
Post by: hoggy on Tue, 20 December 2016, 16:19:41
Post by: kawasaki161 on Tue, 20 December 2016, 16:33:32
Who wants to see a video of the keyboard in action?
Why is that even a question? EVERYONE :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Post by: evoman on Fri, 23 December 2016, 07:39:02
evoman - yes you can order ISO with UK keycaps - please pick ISO and then make a note that you want UK keycaps. Yes they are all printed.
ipreferpie (replied over email)
Vizir I now offer a modern version of this keyboard in the form of the ultra compact case F62 and F77 (we recently reached our 50th compact case keyboard order!). It was designed to match the high end modern Cherry MX custom keyboard offerings out there. I also offer these modern keyboards with HHKB style layout with Fn key. This keyboard is using solid one-piece PBT keys made with brand new molds. I'd imagine any plastic Cherry MX to buckling spring adapter piece would make the keys wobbly and flimsy to type on, whether or not it is possible to do. Also the keyboard would look odd with the MX keys sitting much higher up with the barrels exposed more, given the characteristics of the MX key compared to the buckling spring key.
Great - order has been submitted - I am using myself as a proxy (meaning delivering to my address in the USA, despite being in the UK). Is there a relatively firm shipping schedule? I might need to update that address if the shipment goes when no one will be there to receive!
Post by: Ellipse on Fri, 23 December 2016, 12:39:32
Post by: Ellipse on Wed, 28 December 2016, 13:44:14
Post by: Ellipse on Thu, 29 December 2016, 21:49:56
Post by: Elrick on Fri, 30 December 2016, 01:31:47
The Compact Case F62 and F77 prototypes arrived and pass inspection!
Have to let you know Ellipse your Original designs are still Far Superior in every way.