[IC] F62+F77! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[heedpantsnow]

After reading the interview on reddit.. I think I may end up getting both the kishsaver and f77

Is this the one?:
http://roastpotatoes.github.io/news/2015/11/11/the-kishsaver-f62-and-f77-revival-project/

[ryahirv]

After reading the interview on reddit.. I think I may end up getting both the kishsaver and f77

Is this the one?:
http://roastpotatoes.github.io/news/2015/11/11/the-kishsaver-f62-and-f77-revival-project/

Awesome link!
I too think I have to buy one of each - I sure hope the prototypes are up to spec!  :-)

[aznairjordan]

After reading the interview on reddit.. I think I may end up getting both the kishsaver and f77

Is this the one?:
http://roastpotatoes.github.io/news/2015/11/11/the-kishsaver-f62-and-f77-revival-project/

yes sir! It put the rarity of the type of board into my mind and I don't know if I could pass an opportunity like this up. I don't have any bs boards at the moment and I hope these will show me the light

[Ellipse]

ok I will look into having two holes where you can add a screwed-on bumper - I agree there is not enough room for it towards the "near side bottom" of the keyboard.  So you will be able to add that kind or adhesive bumpers to the bottom.

Any other recommendations besides these?
Cork+rubber low profile bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#8771k43/=zrq7q3
Round screw-on bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#9540k781/=zrqima
Conical screw-on bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#9540k39/=zrqkdy
Dome adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k73/=zrqlnr
Square low profile adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k15/=zrqmeb
Round low profile adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k22/=zrqnia

The factory also set the springs into production and confirmed that they can make the springs to the original IBM tolerance specifications which are about 3x as tight as current Unicomp specifications according to someone I spoke with.  This means that the springs will have a slightly more even feel to them like the originals.

[Melvang]

ok I will look into having two holes where you can add a screwed-on bumper - I agree there is not enough room for it towards the "near side bottom" of the keyboard.  So you will be able to add that kind or adhesive bumpers to the bottom.

Any other recommendations besides these?
Cork+rubber low profile bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#8771k43/=zrq7q3
Round screw-on bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#9540k781/=zrqima
Conical screw-on bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#9540k39/=zrqkdy
Dome adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k73/=zrqlnr
Square low profile adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k15/=zrqmeb
Round low profile adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k22/=zrqnia

The factory also set the springs into production and confirmed that they can make the springs to the original IBM tolerance specifications which are about 3x as tight as current Unicomp specifications according to someone I spoke with.  This means that the springs will have a slightly more even feel to them like the originals.

Any idea on price for springs?

I would be willing to take a test batch to test in my AT.  Would be willing to pay for them of course.

[Vizir]

I'm also thinking of buying both and not just the f62. Also, did anyone confirm that a solenoid and driver would fit inside the f62? Or perhaps the f77?

[Elrick]

ok I will look into having two holes where you can add a screwed-on bumper - I agree there is not enough room for it towards the "near side bottom" of the keyboard.  So you will be able to add that kind or adhesive bumpers to the bottom.

Dome adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k73/=zrqlnr
Round low profile adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k22/=zrqnia

These are the TWO types of adhesive bumpers I shall be requiring for my F77 Keyboard.  Both are Polyurethane based and I would like both of them to be in the Colour of "White"  .

[Ellipse]

It could be another week or two until I receive the prototypes - still waiting on some more things for the factory to do (powdercoating, inner foam, outside foam, spring attachment to the flippers, assembly/test fittings).

Yes you can order extra springs when the time comes - pricing is not yet finalized for the accessories but the keyboards' pricing is finalized at $325.

[Muffinbottoms]

More

The short answer on the rarity of the IBM 4704 Model F keyboards is they were made for banking. Due to the nature of banking equipment, it is almost always destroyed when taken out of service. I believe there are fewer than 200 of the 62 key "kishsaver" keyboards remaining, and possibly even fewer of the 77 and 88(?) key models. A lot of keyboard enthusiasts prefer 60% keyboards, hence all the hype for Kishsavers, which are the only Model F keyboards in that form factor.

Damn, I don't understand why people believe in throwing out their electronics :/ or in case of larger companies, destroying them (recycling is cool in my book); you can always sell or re-purpose them! But dang I can understand now why they'd be so rare haha.

More

Thanks muffinbottoms for the interest. 

For the HHKB style layout please look up a photo of a HHKB.  The biggest change is to imagine the right shift key replaced with a caps lock key and a regular key the size of a letter - some prefer this layout but it requires a separate production as the barrels need to be moved a little in the right shift area.

Unicomp has black blanks but does not have right shift black blank keys.  3d printing is only required if you want your HHKB style keyboard to have a non-stepped shift key (one that does not look like a caps lock key).

I have not decided on kickstarter yet.  I prefer direct orders.  I may do kickstarter for this run as an optional choice just to get more interest before the orders close.  Yes you can pay by credit card.  You do not need to create a PayPal acct.

Ohhhh, okay I see what the split shift and 1u Fn key thing means now haha. That's actually a pretty nice layout and brings it more in line with the keys it corresponds with as well (as opposed to the Pok3r which makes it difficult to use the arrow keys with one hand). I think I'd rather stick with the regular layout just for originals sake c:

Fasho sounds good! Now time to find out how to sell my kidney....

More

ok I will look into having two holes where you can add a screwed-on bumper - I agree there is not enough room for it towards the "near side bottom" of the keyboard.  So you will be able to add that kind or adhesive bumpers to the bottom.

Any other recommendations besides these?
Cork+rubber low profile bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#8771k43/=zrq7q3
Round screw-on bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#9540k781/=zrqima
Conical screw-on bumper - http://www.mcmaster.com/#9540k39/=zrqkdy
Dome adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k73/=zrqlnr
Square low profile adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k15/=zrqmeb
Round low profile adhesive backed - http://www.mcmaster.com/#95495k22/=zrqnia

The factory also set the springs into production and confirmed that they can make the springs to the original IBM tolerance specifications which are about 3x as tight as current Unicomp specifications according to someone I spoke with.  This means that the springs will have a slightly more even feel to them like the originals.

The round, conical, dome, square, and round low-profile all seem like good bumpers, my favorite being the squares (because squares are cool). I agree with Elrick that we should avoid cork because it will eventually degrade over time, kinda like the XT models (if I'm remembering the models correctly).

More

What is it and how does it affect the board?

As you say, a solenoid is activeted each key press and gives us clicky feedback. To run them in boards Ellipse try to manufacture, you need solenoid driver, which is available from orihalcon a member of both GH and DT. In my knowledge solenoids are not originated in original F62/77 and 107, but in more old style of keyboards like beamsprings. And they have buzzer instead.

Ohhh, interesting, I've never heard or seen these in a board before , time to look it up! If it wasn't in the original board than I wouldn't think a recreation would need one as well.

More

The short answer on the rarity of the IBM 4704 Model F keyboards is they were made for banking. Due to the nature of banking equipment, it is almost always destroyed when taken out of service. I believe there are fewer than 200 of the 62 key "kishsaver" keyboards remaining, and possibly even fewer of the 77 and 88(?) key models. A lot of keyboard enthusiasts prefer 60% keyboards, hence all the hype for Kishsavers, which are the only Model F keyboards in that form factor.

There are only two known specimens of the 77 key in the keyboard community.

Really? O_o I thought that a user named Tinnie found a whole bunch of them and sold them to a lot of GH/DT users?

[Ellipse]

Muffin - Tinnie did not find any F77s, just some F62s and F50s to my knowledge.  Parak and I are the only known DT/GH members who have an original F77. 

All - unfortunately anodizing, brushed aluminum, and clear coating case options can not be offered. The CNC milling process does leave some surface discolorations, all of which do not show up after the part is powdercoated.

If the cases were completely redesigned and simplified to be extrudable out of a block of aluminum, or if we paid for die cast molds for the case, then brushed aluminum, anodizing and clear coating would likely be possible.

For those who want to pay extra for a custom powdercoated color (i.e. any color besides "off white", black, and gray) please coordinate with others who want just about the same color to minimize additional costs. I recommend posting what color you'd like and then seeing what other interest there is. For example, if you wanted a blue color, you would need to coordinate which specific Pantone color you'd like (you can go to a hardware store and ask to see their Pantone color swatches). I estimate each extra color will involve splitting $50 to $100 in additional costs among everyone who wants that color.

Some custom colors requested so far (remember to specify a specific Pantone color when making your request - they can't work with RAL colors): Purple, Porcelain white, white, white ivory, semi-gloss black, silver, Hellgrau, pink, gunmetal gray, Hunter green, red, blue, mat dark gray

[Elrick]

Some custom colors requested so far (remember to specify a specific Pantone color when making your request - they can't work with RAL colors): Purple, Porcelain white, white, white ivory, semi-gloss black, silver, Hellgrau, pink, gunmetal gray, Hunter green, red, blue, mat dark gray

Very NICE but I just want to get my F77 as soon as possible.  Maybe after I've received mine I may buy another in RED colour because there are no all red casings of the F77 anywhere  .

[CPTBadAss]

The final major piece of the project is currently in production. The factory sent me some photos of the aluminum case prototypes in the CNC milling machine. In the first photo you can sort of recognize the keyboard's distinctive "pencil holder" bar. CNC milled prototypes are very expensive - they essentially take a block of solid aluminum and go inch by inch with drills and other tools to remove a bit of aluminum at a time.

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

Did it just get hot in here or is it just me? Thatshot.jpg.

[romevi]

Matte dark gray is so sexy.
Can't decide between stock industrial gray or a custom color.

Guys, help me choose!

[Muffinbottoms]

Muffin - Tinnie did not find any F77s, just some F62s and F50s to my knowledge.  Parak and I are the only known DT/GH members who have an original F77. 

You're right, I just looked back at that thread and saw only F77's and F50's.

[atlas3686]

For those who want to pay extra for a custom powdercoated color (i.e. any color besides "off white", black, and gray) please coordinate with others who want just about the same color to minimize additional costs. I recommend posting what color you'd like and then seeing what other interest there is. For example, if you wanted a blue color, you would need to coordinate which specific Pantone color you'd like (you can go to a hardware store and ask to see their Pantone color swatches). I estimate each extra color will involve splitting $50 to $100 in additional costs among everyone who wants that color.

Some custom colors requested so far (remember to specify a specific Pantone color when making your request - they can't work with RAL colors): Purple, Porcelain white, white, white ivory, semi-gloss black, silver, Hellgrau, pink, gunmetal gray, Hunter green, red, blue, mat dark gray

Hey Ellipse, could we see the pantone colours for all the std. colours listed ("off white", black, and gray)? If you have any patones for the custom colours that have been requested so far, would be great to see those as well. Thanks

[Spopepro]

Ellipse,
Is raw still an option?  I know it will have imperfections, and I'm ok with that.

I... um... kind of have ideas to bring mine to an airbrush artist.  It will probably be the opposite of classy.

[Elrick]

I... um... kind of have ideas to bring mine to an airbrush artist.  It will probably be the opposite of classy.

Cool, a different thinker here must be a young one  .

Hope it all goes as you want it too because after all, this will be your own keyboard to customize to your own heart's desire.

[Ellipse]

Yep raw can be an option - pls note it on the order form.  Not sure how quickly untreated aluminum rusts though.

[Elrick]

Yep raw can be an option - pls note it on the order form.  Not sure how quickly untreated aluminum rusts though.

Don't worry it will take some time for untreated Aluminum to start rusting (depends on location and the amount of humidity) and when it does it will look like white powder.

Maybe he might want the casing to look like a "Rat Rod", something evil and obscene  .

[Melvang]

Yep raw can be an option - pls note it on the order form.  Not sure how quickly untreated aluminum rusts though.

Don't worry it will take some time for untreated Aluminum to start rusting (depends on location and the amount of humidity) and when it does it will look like white powder.

Maybe he might want the casing to look like a "Rat Rod", something evil and obscene  .

In a standard home environment, corrosion should be a non issue.

[Spopepro]

Yep raw can be an option - pls note it on the order form.  Not sure how quickly untreated aluminum rusts though.

Aluminum oxidizes very, very quickly. Almost instantly. Fortunately, this thin layer of aluminum oxide is mostly unnoticeable, harder, and very thin. It only really matters if you wanted something like polished aluminum, which will "fog" and won't keep its shine.

Now aluminum can absolutely destructively corrode, but usually requires some other interaction, like a different material and salt (galvanic corrosion). I do not believe there would be any issues arising in this case.

Cool, a different thinker here must be a young one  .

Hope it all goes as you want it too because after all, this will be your own keyboard to customize to your own heart's desire.

Heh. I'm old enough to appreciate the rare instances I get called young.

It's fun to have this opportunity to go a little crazy and do something that would be completely inapropriate on a classic. If I didn't have an F107, I'd probably go for a true replica. But I'm going to have some fun with this one*.




*assuming I can actually decide which one to get and not end up ordering both versions.

[Muffinbottoms]

*assuming I can actually decide which one to get and not end up ordering both versions.

Order both. Feel it in your heart, you do.

[Melvang]

Yep raw can be an option - pls note it on the order form.  Not sure how quickly untreated aluminum rusts though.

Aluminum oxidizes very, very quickly. Almost instantly. Fortunately, this thin layer of aluminum oxide is mostly unnoticeable, harder, and very thin. It only really matters if you wanted something like polished aluminum, which will "fog" and won't keep its shine.

Now aluminum can absolutely destructively corrode, but usually requires some other interaction, like a different material and salt (galvanic corrosion). I do not believe there would be any issues arising in this case.

I concur with this.  The only way this *might* come into effect with anyone here is if it ends up being a keyboard on a sea going vessel.

[njbair]

Point of interest, aluminum oxide is airtight, which means once it forms it prevents further corrosion. In fact, anodization simply thickens the naturally-occurring anodic oxide layer. Al₂O₃ is also molecularly very similar to ruby and sapphire.

You may be aware that some smartphone screens are now being made from sapphire, for its strength and clarity. But did you know that a very similar aluminum-based material exists and is being used in security applications as a lightweight transparent armor? That material is aluminum oxynitride, but you may know it as transparent aluminum.

[cjhard]

... but you may know it as transparent aluminum.

Show Image

How much would it cost to get a 60% plate made out of it?

[ccc24]

It could be another week or two until I receive the prototypes - still waiting on some more things for the factory to do (powdercoating, inner foam, outside foam, spring attachment to the flippers, assembly/test fittings).

Yes you can order extra springs when the time comes - pricing is not yet finalized for the accessories but the keyboards' pricing is finalized at $325.

Does that price include unicomp keycaps?

[Vizir]

It could be another week or two until I receive the prototypes - still waiting on some more things for the factory to do (powdercoating, inner foam, outside foam, spring attachment to the flippers, assembly/test fittings).

Yes you can order extra springs when the time comes - pricing is not yet finalized for the accessories but the keyboards' pricing is finalized at $325.

Does that price include unicomp keycaps?

No, $325 for the keyboard without keycaps. Additional $25 approx for the keycaps from unicomp.

[Ellipse]

Unicomp caps are a little over $25 because they charge separately for stabilizer inserts and the space bar.  I will try to arrange a bulk discount.  I will try to obtain some extra used Model M keycaps to keep a $25 option available for keys.  You can also borrow keys from your existing Model M, a popular option.

I have 3 spare F77 regular and F62 regular layout PCBs which are extras from my very first prototype PCB run - if anyone has their own spare xwhatsit controller and wants to do their own soldering your keyboard can include one of these PCBs. 

[Ellipse]

What USB cable lengths are preferred for those who signed the interest form?  I was thinking 10 feet, which is really 9 feet as part of the cable is routed inside the F77/F62 keyboard.  People can use their own cable but it doesn't cost much to have the preferred cable already configured.

[heedpantsnow]

What USB cable lengths are preferred for those who signed the interest form?  I was thinking 10 feet, which is really 9 feet as part of the cable is routed inside the F77/F62 keyboard.  People can use their own cable but it doesn't cost much to have the preferred cable already configured.

Is the cable removable?

[Ellipse]

Yep you can remove the micro USB cable.  The keyboard opens with a regular phillips head screwdriver.

[heedpantsnow]

Yep you can remove the micro USB cable.  The keyboard opens with a regular phillips head screwdriver.

Ah ok. I would think the 3 meter cable you mentioned is fine. That seems to be a standard length I've seen included in the past. Or 2m/6ft.

[atlas3686]

Length definitely sounds fine. Great that it's reasonably easily removed as well.

[Elrick]

What USB cable lengths are preferred for those who signed the interest form?  I was thinking 10 feet, which is really 9 feet as part of the cable is routed inside the F77/F62 keyboard.  People can use their own cable but it doesn't cost much to have the preferred cable already configured.

10 feet sounds good, as long as the cable looks like the original one used all those years ago then it'll look superb. 

Don't mind having a fixed cable here since you'll always be connected instead of running around looking for a spare cable in the future.

[ApocalypseMaow]

Damn... I want this so bad... tell me where to throw my money!!!

[darkspider]

Damn... I want this so bad... tell me where to throw my money!!!

Invoice hasn't started yet.

[Elrick]

Damn... I want this so bad... tell me where to throw my money!!!

Invoice hasn't started yet.

Don't worry, it will soon be sent out  .

[Muffinbottoms]

10 ft is a good length. I can't see myself going any farther unless I had binoculars to see my screen haha

[ryahirv]

Just back from out of town - I didn't miss the invoice did I?

[Ir0n]

Just back from out of town - I didn't miss the invoice did I?

Nope

On a side note this little project should be started again https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/2irf7l/working_on_buckling_spring_to_cherry_mx_stem/

Would be nice with this build

[ccc24]

Never tried capacitive buckling spring....can anyone give me some info on how they feel? Are they both tactile and clicky?

[Ellipse]

We are still waiting on the powdercoating of the cases, the inner foam, outside foam/box, and flipper/spring assembly. I am now hoping for prototype delivery by the end of the month (a bit delayed unfortunately). I have arranged for a few sample barrels/flippers to be mailed in advance of the prototypes; they should arrive in a week or so. Then I can post some higher resolution photos.

[romevi]

We are still waiting on the powdercoating of the cases, the inner foam, outside foam/box, and flipper/spring assembly. I am now hoping for prototype delivery by the end of the month (a bit delayed unfortunately). I have arranged for a few sample barrels/flippers to be mailed in advance of the prototypes; they should arrive in a week or so. Then I can post some higher resolution photos.

Hey, more time for me to save (and spend on other things)!

[Muffinbottoms]

I with you on that romevi! My wallet is charging up so it can do one big money poop on these boards

[Elrick]

We are still waiting on the powdercoating of the cases, the inner foam, outside foam/box, and flipper/spring assembly. I am now hoping for prototype delivery by the end of the month (a bit delayed unfortunately). I have arranged for a few sample barrels/flippers to be mailed in advance of the prototypes; they should arrive in a week or so. Then I can post some higher resolution photos.

Hey, more time for me to save (and spend on other things)!

That's the Geekhack spirit, every extra moment helps to fully charge our wallets so when this GB finally drops everyone shall jump on some keyboards without haste  .

No one can afford to miss out on owning this wonder because anyone can own a Kmac model but an Ellipse Keyboard, now that shall go down in history as the rarest of them all.

[atlas3686]

No one can afford to miss out on owning this wonder because anyone can own a Kmac model but an Ellipse Keyboard, now that shall go down in history as the rarest of them all.

Damn Elrick, did you buy shares in this GB or something Seriously though I cannot wait!

[Vizir]

We are still waiting on the powdercoating of the cases, the inner foam, outside foam/box, and flipper/spring assembly. I am now hoping for prototype delivery by the end of the month (a bit delayed unfortunately). I have arranged for a few sample barrels/flippers to be mailed in advance of the prototypes; they should arrive in a week or so. Then I can post some higher resolution photos.

Hey, more time for me to save (and spend on other things)!

That's the Geekhack spirit, every extra moment helps to fully charge our wallets so when this GB finally drops everyone shall jump on some keyboards without haste  .

No one can afford to miss out on owning this wonder because anyone can own a Kmac model but an Ellipse Keyboard, now that shall go down in history as the rarest of them all.

I think you meant the opposite of "without haste".

[mobbo]

Can't wait to see the prototypes! This is a legendary endeavour.

[Elrick]

I think you meant the opposite of "without haste".

Definitely, us Rock Apes do not tend to check grammar to clearly, especially when it's around 3.40AM  .

Thanks for pointing that out here.

[Ir0n]

Never tried capacitive buckling spring....can anyone give me some info on how they feel? Are they both tactile and clicky?

They are loud as hell and do have a sort of bump to them from what I remember lol I haven't touched one in a looooong time
I haven't used many MX switches but I'd say it's closest to either blue or greens :s