[IC] F62+F77! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[Ellipse]

Yes I expect these will be hand assembled in China and every unit will be given a final test by me.  The labor cost is factored into the $325 production price. 

Does anyone know the best way to create very easy to use online shopping carts?  I prefer something like the Lenovo or Dell notebook configuration page where you can pick either a wizard or a list and then see photos and make selections of what you want, as opposed to looking around a site and clicking "add to cart" for various pieces.  I may just use PayPal's option but I need to look more into this.

[Ir0n]

Ellipse- are you still planning to offer in-person testing of the prototypes in NYC?

Oo if anyone does this they should make a video and post it

[Elrick]

I prefer something like the Lenovo or Dell notebook configuration page where you can pick either a wizard or a list and then see photos and make selections of what you want, as opposed to looking around a site and clicking "add to cart" for various pieces.  I may just use PayPal's option but I need to look more into this.

Just get something up that won't make any mistakes when it comes to the final transaction.  Don't spend any extra money on this as this maybe a one time only sale of these keyboards and you'll be free again to do what ever next keyboard design, takes your fancy.

When the keyboards arrive to you, just post the pics and you'll get everyone wanting them no matter what  .

[Vizir]

Yes, Elrick, yes, I'm sure Ellipse gets it. He'll post pics when the keyboards arrive.

And just posting the pics won't get the orders and invoices done. He has to get some sort of shopping cart... The photographs won't handle this.

[Ellipse]

Major update:  The sample barrels, springs and flippers have arrived!  They all appear to be very good quality and the correct materials for this project.

After some brief testing the flippers work!  This is a major relief that the plastic might not prove correct.  The new flippers convey key presses firmly and accurately as well as the originals, from my initial testing (of course extensive testing will be done after the full prototypes arrive).  The new springs are also excellent and require the same amount of force to buckle as original Model F springs.  They fit on the flippers well.

Unfortunately the barrels will need a few 0.1 mm adjustments in the molds before they are excellent (the insides of the new barrels require a little more room to match the originals).  I filed down one sample barrel 0.1 mm in the needed areas to correct this issue and the new barrel is just as smooth in operation as the originals.  This will likely cause a delay in the project unfortunately.

To show how similar my units are to the originals, in the photos I have included a mix of original barrels/flippers/springs as well as the reproductions that arrived today. 

Can you tell which ones in the photos are originals and which ones are the new ones? 

[Melvang]

Major update:  The sample barrels, springs and flippers have arrived!  They all appear to be very good quality and the correct materials for this project.

After some brief testing the flippers work!  This is a major relief that the plastic might not prove correct.  The new flippers convey key presses firmly and accurately as well as the originals, from my initial testing (of course extensive testing will be done after the full prototypes arrive).  The new springs are also excellent and require the same amount of force to buckle as original Model F springs.  They fit on the flippers well.

Unfortunately the barrels will need a few 0.1 mm adjustments in the molds before they are excellent (the insides of the new barrels require a little more room to match the originals).  I filed down one sample barrel 0.1 mm in the needed areas to correct this issue and the new barrel is just as smooth in operation as the originals.  This will likely cause a delay in the project unfortunately.

To show how similar my units are to the originals, in the photos I have included a mix of original barrels/flippers/springs as well as the reproductions that arrived today. 

Can you tell which ones in the photos are originals and which ones are the new ones? 

(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

Bottom pic, the two right barrels are original.  They still have numbers in the top.

[ctm]

Awesome! Great to see this!

p.s. I guess the two on left are new ones because there is no dust at all on them.

[cjhard]

I have a little bit more time to save dollars? I'll reluctantly take it... I went overboard in LeandreN's buy

How badly would you figure the springs could rust if left to the elements? I happen to know too well how nasty a Model M spring'll rust

[Melvang]

How badly would you figure the springs could rust if left to the elements? I happen to know too well how nasty a Model M spring'll rust

Good question, what material are the springs, carbon steel, or stainless?

[Ellipse]

The prototype springs are steel but not stainless steel.  They are nickel coated so that they will not corrode any time soon.  If you want extra springs to keep with silica gel in a bag for the coming decades, they will be available to order.

However they will be fully tested in the prototypes before I confirm those materials for the production run, just like all the other materials and specs.

[Ellipse]

Thanks all. The factory did a really good job on their first try despite a few mistakes. It's unfortunate that the prototypes were not 100% perfect for all components and that there will be a few more weeks' delay. I don't think these will be done by Christmas at this rate

There are always small inaccuracies when doing plastic injection molding but this factory was so good that many of the measurements were accurate to a few 100ths of a mm compared to my original CAD files, which is amazing work. Much more accurate than even the original barrels' sample variations!

The factory is continuing to do the testing and they have been very kind to document their progress with many of the photos I've been posting. In this recent photo they are checking the fit of top inner assembly with the barrels. They confirmed that it is a good tight fit, even with foam and the space needed for the capacitive PCB. Too tight a fit and it could scratch the barrels or powdercoated paint, while too loose a fit and there may be more barrel movement than the movement allowed by the original standards.

[ryahirv]

Always good to take the time and get it right!

[iamtootallforthis]

I'm really looking forward to seeing a completed board! Hopefully I'm in the area when you do the testing so I can get some hands on time before making the final decision.

[romevi]

I'm always good on delays if it means the board will be perfect.

(And some time for fattening the wallet.)

[livingspeedbump]

I'm always good on delays if it means the board will be perfect.

(And some time for fattening the wallet.)

Couldnt agree more! No reason to pay as much attention to detail as you have and let some silly little thing mess it up.

[darkspider]

There is no reason to hurry to get products for me. So I'm to wait even if there is more delay unless it's infinite.

[atlas3686]

I'm always good on delays if it means the board will be perfect.

(And some time for fattening the wallet.)

Couldnt agree more! No reason to pay as much attention to detail as you have and let some silly little thing mess it up.

Exactly my feelings.

[Muffinbottoms]

I'm always good on delays if it means the board will be perfect.

(And some time for fattening the wallet.)

"A delayed keyboard is eventually good, a rushed keyboard is forever bad" - Shigeru Miyamoto

[romevi]

I'm always good on delays if it means the board will be perfect.

(And some time for fattening the wallet.)

"A delayed keyboard is eventually good, a rushed keyboard is forever bad" - Shigeru Miyamoto

Shigs said that?

[Muffinbottoms]

I'm always good on delays if it means the board will be perfect.

(And some time for fattening the wallet.)

"A delayed keyboard is eventually good, a rushed keyboard is forever bad" - Shigeru Miyamoto

Shigs said that?

More or less ;P

[Bevo]

Pretty sure either was Gandhi

[AKmalamute]

Pretty sure either was Gandhi

No; Ghandi said "I will some day be misquoted on the Internet."

[Ellipse]

Given the factory delays and the need to make adjustments to the injection molds for the barrels, we are probably about 2-4 weeks away from the completed prototypes and the opening of orders.  There is a lot more interest than I had expected - we recently made it to 200+ preorders!  I was hoping for an earlier date to open the order form if there were no issues but I want to make sure that even the prototypes are great before accepting orders.

Are there one or more writers out there who can volunteer some of their time to help the project?

One of the final steps will be to help write a brief instruction manual, FAQs, something for the web site to introduce/summarize the project for those who may not be as familiar with the project, and anything else you think would be worthwhile (maybe a brief overview of buckling spring keyboards).  xwhatsit's Model F USB manual is probably recommended reading too.  I don't want to take anything already written though unless the author agrees to it.

[user 18]

I don't mind doing a bit of writing. Would have to wait a couple of weeks though, as I'm right in the thick of things at school and work. Drop me a PM if you want to discuss.

[romevi]

I wouldn't mind helping out in regards to writing, but I don't have any first-hand experience with Model Fs. If I somehow still can be of service, PM me and I'd be more than happy to volunteer!

[raymogi]

Really can't wait for this project to come to life. Would make a great New Year's present a.k.a. excuse for the wife.

[harlw]

Given the factory delays and the need to make adjustments to the injection molds for the barrels, we are probably about 2-4 weeks away from the completed prototypes and the opening of orders.  There is a lot more interest than I had expected - we recently made it to 200+ preorders!  I was hoping for an earlier date to open the order form if there were no issues but I want to make sure that even the prototypes are great before accepting orders.

Are there one or more writers out there who can volunteer some of their time to help the project?

One of the final steps will be to help write a brief instruction manual, FAQs, something for the web site to introduce/summarize the project for those who may not be as familiar with the project, and anything else you think would be worthwhile (maybe a brief overview of buckling spring keyboards).  xwhatsit's Model F USB manual is probably recommended reading too.  I don't want to take anything already written though unless the author agrees to it.

Great idea! Let me know if you need help with illustrations, writing, graphics etc.


I know there were some proposals for box art but let me know if you would like some help on that - I've done packaging graphics many times and I can make sure the graphics are top-notch for print.

[ApocalypseMaow]

I seriously can't believe this is happening... No words can express my joy seeing this keyboard come to life!!!

[Elrick]

Given the factory delays and the need to make adjustments to the injection molds for the barrels, we are probably about 2-4 weeks away from the completed prototypes and the opening of orders.  There is a lot more interest than I had expected - we recently made it to 200+ preorders!  I was hoping for an earlier date to open the order form if there were no issues but I want to make sure that even the prototypes are great before accepting orders.

Knew this would go BALLISTIC because it's the current MOST unique keyboard currently available around the globe.  Plus using a familiar key-switch that has long been abandoned by all manufacturers for the cheapest one, being the "Cherry".  The people are sick of the current situation.

They all want the BEST switch possible and you made that happen hence the interest here, I think 2016 is going to be a stellar year for this to happen  .

[Bevo]

Given the factory delays and the need to make adjustments to the injection molds for the barrels, we are probably about 2-4 weeks away from the completed prototypes and the opening of orders.  There is a lot more interest than I had expected - we recently made it to 200+ preorders!  I was hoping for an earlier date to open the order form if there were no issues but I want to make sure that even the prototypes are great before accepting orders.

Knew this would go BALLISTIC because it's the current MOST unique keyboard currently available around the globe.  Plus using a familiar key-switch that has long been abandoned by all manufacturers for the cheapest one, being the "Cherry".  The people are sick of the current situation.

They all want the BEST switch possible and you made that happen hence the interest here, I think 2016 is going to be a stellar year for this to happen  .

I for one wouldn't want everyone in my office typing on model F's.

[rowdy]

Given the factory delays and the need to make adjustments to the injection molds for the barrels, we are probably about 2-4 weeks away from the completed prototypes and the opening of orders.  There is a lot more interest than I had expected - we recently made it to 200+ preorders!  I was hoping for an earlier date to open the order form if there were no issues but I want to make sure that even the prototypes are great before accepting orders.

Knew this would go BALLISTIC because it's the current MOST unique keyboard currently available around the globe.  Plus using a familiar key-switch that has long been abandoned by all manufacturers for the cheapest one, being the "Cherry".  The people are sick of the current situation.

They all want the BEST switch possible and you made that happen hence the interest here, I think 2016 is going to be a stellar year for this to happen  .

I for one wouldn't want everyone in my office typing on model F's.

I think that would be hilarious )

But someone complained about my solitary SSK at work, so now I use clears.

[Bevo]

Given the factory delays and the need to make adjustments to the injection molds for the barrels, we are probably about 2-4 weeks away from the completed prototypes and the opening of orders.  There is a lot more interest than I had expected - we recently made it to 200+ preorders!  I was hoping for an earlier date to open the order form if there were no issues but I want to make sure that even the prototypes are great before accepting orders.

Knew this would go BALLISTIC because it's the current MOST unique keyboard currently available around the globe.  Plus using a familiar key-switch that has long been abandoned by all manufacturers for the cheapest one, being the "Cherry".  The people are sick of the current situation.

They all want the BEST switch possible and you made that happen hence the interest here, I think 2016 is going to be a stellar year for this to happen  .

I for one wouldn't want everyone in my office typing on model F's.

I think that would be hilarious )

But someone complained about my solitary SSK at work, so now I use clears.

Bunch of haters!

I was using blues at work until someone complained so i bought a novatouch specifically for work. Well that was my excuse for the purchase anyways

[zombimuncha]

Given the factory delays and the need to make adjustments to the injection molds for the barrels, we are probably about 2-4 weeks away from the completed prototypes and the opening of orders.  There is a lot more interest than I had expected - we recently made it to 200+ preorders!  I was hoping for an earlier date to open the order form if there were no issues but I want to make sure that even the prototypes are great before accepting orders.

Knew this would go BALLISTIC because it's the current MOST unique keyboard currently available around the globe.  Plus using a familiar key-switch that has long been abandoned by all manufacturers for the cheapest one, being the "Cherry".  The people are sick of the current situation.

They all want the BEST switch possible and you made that happen hence the interest here, I think 2016 is going to be a stellar year for this to happen  .

I for one wouldn't want everyone in my office typing on model F's.

I think that would be hilarious )

But someone complained about my solitary SSK at work, so now I use clears.

Bunch of haters!

I was using blues at work until someone complained so i bought a novatouch specifically for work. Well that was my excuse for the purchase anyways

Hahaha. I started with Matias QuietClicks, nobody complained so I tried MX Clears, still nobody complained so now I'm on Matias Clicks. I suspect a Model F might be too noisy even for my very tolerant co-workers tho.

[bocahgundul]

Can't wait this project to be a GB

[stoic-lemon]

I'd be willing to help with proofreading manuals.

[Elrick]

Bunch of haters!

I was using blues at work until someone complained so i bought a novatouch specifically for work. Well that was my excuse for the purchase anyways

Damn,  anyone complains about my typing in my office gets to do clean up duty around the oil refuse area, outside the workshop.

Very peaceful here because I make it happen each and everyday  .

[stoic-lemon]

People in my office are so annoying, I am thinking of getting one of these just to get my own back.

[Ellipse]

Great I will get in touch with all the volunteer writers soon.  If anyone else wants to volunteer please let me know!

[Ellipse]

As an update, the powdercoating on the case should be finished within a day or so, and then we will just need to wait for the outside foam and box to be made and for the springs to be attached to the flippers - it is possible the prototypes could be here in about two weeks!

[romevi]

As an update, the powdercoating on the case should be finished within a day or so, and then we will just need to wait for the outside foam and box to be made and for the springs to be attached to the flippers - it is possible the prototypes could be here in about two weeks!

Why are you so amazing, Ellipse?

[aznairjordan]

Someone convince me to get both boards.. Do I need two??  Great job on this ellipse!  Can't wait to see the final product

[Ir0n]

Someone convince me to get both boards.. Do I need two??  Great job on this ellipse!  Can't wait to see the final product

I can only get one myself, but i'm still unsure which one i want...I don't know if I can use a 60% keyboard.

[Ellipse]

Yes aznairjordan I do suggest getting two and seeing which one you prefer.  You can always save one for later in case your layout preferences ever change in the future.  What you won't be able to do is buy another F77 or F62 from me in the future - you'd have to buy it at a premium from those who bought extras.  Quite a number of forum members are buying both versions.  And if you end up trying both and preferring one, you can always sell the other one down the line.  These should definitely hold their value.

We reached 210 keyboards today!  Interestingly the preference is towards the F62s (personally I prefer the F77 for the separate num pad and cursor keys).  The current breakdown is 85 F77s and 125 F62s.

[user 18]

It seems like this project is going forward regardless of whether or not there is additional interest. Is it necessary to fill out the form? I'm still deciding what I might be interested in.

[Techno Trousers]

We may be able to get to a lower price if there's enough interest. So I'd say go ahead and sign up.

[Ellipse]

Yes please sign the form if you are interested in ordering one!  We have long passed the 100 order minimum for production to be feasible.  Techno is correct that the price may be lower if there is more interest, but most likely the price will stay at $325.

If you can't decide between F62 and F77 just yet, you can order both (!) or you can put 0.5 for each one like the other undecided forum members are putting, so that the total count is correct.

[Ellipse]

The F77 is about 16.5 x 7 inches and the F62 is about 2.5 inches less wide (~ 14 x 7 in.).  For further space savings in the 7" dimension, I would need a volunteer PCB designer to redesign the xwhatsit controller to take up less space. Currently it just sticks out of the capacitive PCB like on an original XT keyboard. Any volunteers?

Since quite a few people asked me about a smaller/redesigned F77 and F62 case in recent months, I am working on an additional case option, in addition to the current cases which will still definitely be the main offering: an alternative case that does not take up as much extra space.

Don't worry the original designs will not change at all - they are the main option! Just about everyone will still be ordering the original-style cases I'd imagine.

The proposed redesigned case will be 1 inch less wide and 0.7 in less the other way (about 15.5 in x 6.3 in for the F77 and 14 in x 6.3 in for the F62). Not much savings. The cost for both case options will be the same, or if there's enough interest you may be able to save a small amount like $15 or so on your order.

The other case would also be made out of metal.

[Vizir]

I only put down 1, but am considering ordering both.

[ctm]

The F77 is about 16.5 x 7 inches and the F62 is about 2.5 inches less wide (~ 14 x 7 in.).  For further space savings in the 7" dimension, I would need a volunteer PCB designer to redesign the xwhatsit controller to take up less space. Currently it just sticks out of the capacitive PCB like on an original XT keyboard. Any volunteers?

Since quite a few people asked me about a smaller/redesigned F77 and F62 case in recent months, I am working on an additional case option, in addition to the current cases which will still definitely be the main offering: an alternative case that does not take up as much extra space.

Don't worry the original designs will not change at all - they are the main option! Just about everyone will still be ordering the original-style cases I'd imagine.

The proposed redesigned case will be 1 inch less wide and 0.7 in less the other way (about 15.5 in x 6.3 in for the F77 and 14 in x 6.3 in for the F62). Not much savings. The cost for both case options will be the same, or if there's enough interest you may be able to save a small amount like $15 or so on your order.

The other case would also be made out of metal.

I am interested in the smaller case!

[ctm]

Just asking, anyone interested in a group buy for IBM stickers for this keyboard?