[IC] F62+F77! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[KetchyKech]

lol that site has been up for some time now  )   

[Ellipse]

Yep pr0ximity - good detective skills with Google  

The site is not finished and ordering is disabled for now - please don't try to order something as I won't be getting the funds you send!  The keyboard prototypes are expected to arrive on Monday when I hope to do my inspection, testing, and videos.  Product photos will be re-taken at some point for a more professional look.

If anyone wants to look through the site and test for typos/bugs that would be appreciated.  Especially with product pricing. 

Expedited shipping question:  Sea mail/container shipping from China is very slow and takes 2-4 weeks.  Would anyone be interested in expedited shipping?  It would then take one week for the keyboard to arrive to me.  So in this case you would pay for DHL Express shipping to me, then I would do my QC and testing and then ship it to you by USPS Priority Mail.  This should add about $50 to $75 in extra shipping costs depending on interest.  You would only need to decide and let me know a week or two before everything ships around late March.

[ctm]

Thanks all for the logo feedback. It looks like the preference is for the blue version of the non-angled text logo, with "ultimate" removed from the subheading. I hope to add this logo to the boxes but it may be too costly. If anyone prefers no logo on the box I may be able to arrange that as well.

(Attachment Link)

I absolutely love this graphics! Putting "ultimate" on the box is somewhat redundant because it's obviously the ultimate 

[Pemdas]

The keyboard prototypes are expected to arrive on Monday when I hope to do my inspection, testing, and videos.

This is so close to happening! Can't wait to feel the typing experience on these babies 

Btw I skimmed the thread and didn't find an answer but did we end up with enough volunteers for the early bird wave?

[Ellipse]

Can anyone volunteer or suggest a venue in Manhattan to hold a NYC keyboard meetup this week or next week with the F77/F62s and whatever keyboards people want to bring?  Beamsprings, SSKs, XT's, AT's, F107s, original Kishsavers, etc.

Pemdas I'm confident we will find the 15 early bird tooling volunteers.  I think we're at 9 or 10 now. 

Can anyone else volunteer for $100 towards the early bird tooling? 

In exchange for allowing everyone to receive their keyboards months earlier, you will be given a lower serial number, brought towards the front of the line in terms of testing and shipping your keyboard, and your user name will be added to the inside label as an early bird tooling volunteer.  The only other way to be pushed to the front is to pay extra for a lower serial number only (not on the label).

It will also help popularize the Model F keyboard among more people, as I hope to facilitate getting different reviewers to borrow some early bird keyboards and test/review them while the final half of the group buy is still open.  If anyone has any tips or inside connections at different tech media outlets/web sites/tech bloggers please let me know.  I know that some people are fine waiting 7-8 months from now for the final group buy units to ship, if they can see what people are saying about them.

[Melvang]

Are these using the Xwhatsit controller with solenoid/buzzer support?

[aznairjordan]

so tempted to place an order already  The website looks awesome and contains some great info!

[Elrick]

Can anyone else volunteer for $100 towards the early bird tooling? 

In exchange for allowing everyone to receive their keyboards months earlier, you will be given a lower serial number, brought towards the front of the line in terms of testing and shipping your keyboard, and your user name will be added to the inside label as an early bird tooling volunteer.  The only other way to be pushed to the front is to pay extra for a lower serial number only (not on the label).

Couldn't care less about the early numbering scheme because I'm no hardcore Model-F collector here, all I want is a PERFECTLY made keyboard made by hands and fully tuned to my specifications.

For me handing over an extra $100USD ($145.78AUD) is worth it, since this new keyboard shall be residing as my personal Number One Keyboard under my roof  .

[Ir0n]

Anyone else interested in getting few done in red with me?

I was thinking this red



Or maybe some other shade of red?
I know most of you are most likely going original colors or black but I'm just checking
I like me some red lol

[Ellipse]

Yes melvang - xwhatsit controllers with buzzer/solenoid support.  They also support adding Num Lock/Caps Lock/Scroll Lock LED's on your own too I believe.

The controllers will be on a separate small PCB attached to the main PCB by ribbon cable, like the original Kishsavers and other 4704s.  This is an update to my original idea to have everything on one PCB.

[KetchyKech]

Anyone else interested in getting few done in red with me?

I was thinking this red

Show Image

Or maybe some other shade of red?
I know most of you are most likely going original colors or black but I'm just checking
I like me some red lol

I'd be willing to join you in that if no one is doing a stark white. I hope we get a list of colors people have proposed so we can choose among that list and lower costs accordingly

[Ellipse]

OK here are the requested custom colors - please add to the list if I forgot any. 

Please note that all of these colors require custom tooling and everyone wanting the color must help pay for the tooling.  This is different from the custom layout where anyone can get the layout once at least one person pays for the tooling. 

Everyone interested in each type of color needs to agree on a specific Pantone number.  The Pantone color on the screen does not match the actual paint color - to see something close to the actual color you'd need to go to a hardware store and look at their pantone book.  Also the factory will not guarantee a match with the Pantone color you choose, just a very close approximation of the color, so you'd need to accept that going into the process.  Also the factory doesn't guarantee an exact match with my Industrial Grey or off-white original Model F colors, so you'll need to know that there are no guarantees about the accuracy of any of the regular colors.  RAL 7030 is not being used.

Very few people want a custom color right now - maybe 10-20 or so for all requests, out of the 249 pre-orders so far.

Red
Silver
Blue
Purple
Dark Grey
White
Pink
Green

A note that unpainted/clear coat/anodized/brushed/electrophoresis coating/sandblasting will not be offered.

[romevi]

OK here are the requested custom colors - please add to the list if I forgot any. 

Please note that all of these colors require custom tooling and everyone wanting the color must help pay for the tooling.  This is different from the custom layout where anyone can get the layout once at least one person pays for the tooling. 

Everyone interested in each type of color needs to agree on a specific Pantone number.  The Pantone color on the screen does not match the actual paint color - to see something close to the actual color you'd need to go to a hardware store and look at their pantone book.  Also the factory will not guarantee a match with the Pantone color you choose, just a very close approximation of the color, so you'd need to accept that going into the process.  Also the factory doesn't guarantee an exact match with my Industrial Grey or off-white original Model F colors, so you'll need to know that there are no guarantees about the accuracy of any of the regular colors.  RAL 7030 is not being used.

Very few people want a custom color right now - maybe 10-20 or so for all requests, out of the 249 pre-orders so far.

Red
Silver
Blue
Purple
Dark Grey
White
Pink
Green

A note that unpainted/clear coat/anodized/brushed/electrophoresis coating/sandblasting will not be offered.

I may be interested in dark gray depending on what the final shade is.

[KetchyKech]

OK here are the requested custom colors - please add to the list if I forgot any. 

Please note that all of these colors require custom tooling and everyone wanting the color must help pay for the tooling.  This is different from the custom layout where anyone can get the layout once at least one person pays for the tooling. 

Everyone interested in each type of color needs to agree on a specific Pantone number.  The Pantone color on the screen does not match the actual paint color - to see something close to the actual color you'd need to go to a hardware store and look at their pantone book.  Also the factory will not guarantee a match with the Pantone color you choose, just a very close approximation of the color, so you'd need to accept that going into the process.  Also the factory doesn't guarantee an exact match with my Industrial Grey or off-white original Model F colors, so you'll need to know that there are no guarantees about the accuracy of any of the regular colors.  RAL 7030 is not being used.

Very few people want a custom color right now - maybe 10-20 or so for all requests, out of the 249 pre-orders so far.

Red
Silver
Blue
Purple
Dark Grey
White
Pink
Green

A note that unpainted/clear coat/anodized/brushed/electrophoresis coating/sandblasting will not be offered.

Thanks Ellipse, if those colors are the leaders in the custom selections that people have shown interest in, then I'd be down for a white or red (maybe even blue). Perhaps when the time comes we can get a list that specifies which are the most popular selections and how much each color would cost accordingly. From there-- those interested can make an informed decision when choosing which they wanna go with.

[Ir0n]

Join the red side! lol

[joc]

Ellipse: If you're still considering alternative layouts, I'm interested in an ortholinear layout like this:


Source: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62471.msg1721540#msg1721540

Backspace, Enter, and Right Shift: 2u (all optionally splittable)
Bottom row: 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 2u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1u, 1u, 1u

Is anyone else interested in this 60% layout?

[Melvang]

Ellipse: If you're still considering alternative layouts, I'm interested in an ortholinear layout like this:

Show Image

Source: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62471.msg1721540#msg1721540

Backspace, Enter, and Right Shift: 2u (all optionally splittable)
Bottom row: 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 2u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1u, 1u, 1u

Is anyone else interested in this 60% layout?

Not enough to pay for the extra tooling, pcb design, and other costs.  Plus Unicomp (only place that makes caps fr BS) has **** customer support for custom stuff like this.

[Ellipse]

Is this the default layout (non-HHKB version) you think most people would like for their F62/F77? Of course it would all be regular keys, not the pictured keys and stepped Alt keys. Would most Kishsaver users not getting HHKB split right shift prefer the split backspace with a 1U backspace and a 1U "~ `" key? Should the upper left key be ~` or Esc as the default? Of course you can switch it to other layouts if you want once you have it.

[user 18]

Is this the default layout (non-HHKB version) you think most people would like for their F62/F77? Of course it would all be regular keys, not the pictured keys and stepped Alt keys. Would most Kishsaver users not getting HHKB split right shift prefer the split backspace with a 1U backspace and a 1U "~ `" key? Should the upper left key be ~` or Esc as the default? Of course you can switch it to other layouts if you want once you have it.

(Attachment Link)

I vote for `~ as the default, but fully expect to be outvoted. I also would not set up the right side cluster anywhere near like that, but I don't have an issue with any defaults so long as I can fully configure mine.

[ccc24]

Yes here is a post from DT showing a HHKB option:

(Attachment Link)

The order form will be opened after I approve of the prototypes.  The prototypes should arrive by the end of next week hopefully.

Will this be the default layout for the HHKB with split right shift and split backspace?

[ctm]

Is the split right shift layout not compatible with standard ANSI? Is it possible to have both?

[Elrick]

Is this the default layout (non-HHKB version) you think most people would like for their F62/F77? Of course it would all be regular keys, not the pictured keys and stepped Alt keys. Would most Kishsaver users not getting HHKB split right shift prefer the split backspace with a 1U backspace and a 1U "~ `" key? Should the upper left key be ~` or Esc as the default? Of course you can switch it to other layouts if you want once you have it.

(Attachment Link)

I vote for `~ as the default, but fully expect to be outvoted. I also would not set up the right side cluster anywhere near like that, but I don't have an issue with any defaults so long as I can fully configure mine.

For the F77 that should be the DEFAULT, anyone wanting something else can organize it for themselves.

Remember that when you start offering 1000's of layouts do expect an abysmally high failure rate and your future customers complaining how it didn't work for them.  If you stick to one or two layouts for the F77, then things are simple and you could send out all the keyboards within a decent time frame.  It's up to the end user to configure their own layouts by themselves with the help of GH community.  After all this is why this place is known as Keyboard Central  .

[Techno Trousers]

I'm with Elrick. Ellipse's proposed default should suit the majority of buyers. I'd personally vote for Esc as the upper-left default, though that's easily adjustable in the xwhatsit software.

[Ir0n]

Yeah I like exactly whats in that photo lol

[livingspeedbump]

Is this the default layout (non-HHKB version) you think most people would like for their F62/F77? Of course it would all be regular keys, not the pictured keys and stepped Alt keys. Would most Kishsaver users not getting HHKB split right shift prefer the split backspace with a 1U backspace and a 1U "~ `" key? Should the upper left key be ~` or Esc as the default? Of course you can switch it to other layouts if you want once you have it.

(Attachment Link)

I vote for `~ as the default, but fully expect to be outvoted. I also would not set up the right side cluster anywhere near like that, but I don't have an issue with any defaults so long as I can fully configure mine.

For the F77 that should be the DEFAULT, anyone wanting something else can organize it for themselves.

Remember that when you start offering 1000's of layouts do expect an abysmally high failure rate and your future customers complaining how it didn't work for them.  If you stick to one or two layouts for the F77, then things are simple and you could send out all the keyboards within a decent time frame.  It's up to the end user to configure their own layouts by themselves with the help of GH community.  After all this is why this place is known as Keyboard Central  .

Yeah i tend to mostly agree with this approach. Offering too many options, with any buy or IC is generally a bad idea. You can't make everyone happy

[Ellipse]

The prototypes arrived!  Today I have been doing some thorough testing.  So far they are in good shape for opening up the group buy soon!

[ryahirv]

Can't wait for pictures!!!

[Pemdas]

The prototypes arrived!  Today I have been doing some thorough testing.  So far they are in good shape for opening up the group buy soon!

This is great news! So exciting 

[Muffinbottoms]

I swear my nipples are at diamond cutting levels in anticipation of these things 

[HoffmanMyster]

I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.

It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything?  Tempting.  I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help?  Are you just reserving a serial number?

I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? )?  I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.

[Snowdog993]

I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.

It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything?  Tempting.  I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help?  Are you just reserving a serial number?

I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? )?  I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.

I thought that was the XTAnt project?  Didn't they already make boards for that?

[HoffmanMyster]

I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.

It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything?  Tempting.  I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help?  Are you just reserving a serial number?

I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? )?  I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.

I thought that was the XTAnt project?  Didn't they already make boards for that?

AFAIK, that was simply to "un-butcher" the XT.  )  But maybe I missed something!

[Snowdog993]

I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.

It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything?  Tempting.  I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help?  Are you just reserving a serial number?

I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? )?  I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.

I thought that was the XTAnt project?  Didn't they already make boards for that?

AFAIK, that was simply to "un-butcher" the XT.  )  But maybe I missed something!

Maybe I did too.
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/bringing-the-ibm-pc-xt-into-the-21st-century-t3047-210.html

Edit: Corrected author.

[Melvang]

I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.

It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything?  Tempting.  I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help?  Are you just reserving a serial number?

I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? )?  I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.

I thought that was the XTAnt project?  Didn't they already make boards for that?

AFAIK, that was simply to "un-butcher" the XT.  )  But maybe I missed something!

Maybe I did too.
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/bringing-the-ibm-pc-xt-into-the-21st-century-t3047-210.html

The xtant was just a pcb and barrel plate that recycled the rest of the XT plus needing one extra barrel.  After that an xwhatsit controller was needed.  The odd part was all the arrow and 6key nav cluster keys are 1.25 unit keys.

[Snowdog993]

I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.

It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything?  Tempting.  I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help?  Are you just reserving a serial number?

I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? )?  I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.

I thought that was the XTAnt project?  Didn't they already make boards for that?

AFAIK, that was simply to "un-butcher" the XT.  )  But maybe I missed something!

Maybe I did too.
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/bringing-the-ibm-pc-xt-into-the-21st-century-t3047-210.html

The xtant was just a pcb and barrel plate that recycled the rest of the XT plus needing one extra barrel.  After that an xwhatsit controller was needed.  The odd part was all the arrow and 6key nav cluster keys are 1.25 unit keys.

Yes, but you have to admit, it's a lot better than the original layout.

[Melvang]

I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.

It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything?  Tempting.  I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help?  Are you just reserving a serial number?

I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? )?  I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.

I thought that was the XTAnt project?  Didn't they already make boards for that?

AFAIK, that was simply to "un-butcher" the XT.  )  But maybe I missed something!

Maybe I did too.
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/bringing-the-ibm-pc-xt-into-the-21st-century-t3047-210.html

The xtant was just a pcb and barrel plate that recycled the rest of the XT plus needing one extra barrel.  After that an xwhatsit controller was needed.  The odd part was all the arrow and 6key nav cluster keys are 1.25 unit keys.

Yes, but you have to admit, it's a lot better than the original layout.

It is on paper, I haven't gotten mine built yet.  But the XT wasn't that hard to get used to.  The hardest part for me was the lack of homing on F and J.

[atlas3686]

I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.

It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything?  Tempting.  I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help?  Are you just reserving a serial number?

I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? )?  I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.

Hey Hoff, I believe it's $325 excl. shipping and keys (so your choice of keys will add a little or you can use your own).

[romevi]

I have not followed this project at all up until this point, so please bear with me.

It looks like the confirmed final cost of the board is $325 shipped for everything?  Tempting.  I saw no mention of what pre-ordering does for you though; any help?  Are you just reserving a serial number?

I have to ask though, why not design a TKL Model F (or hopefully there is one in the works? )?  I know there are quite a few of us that would appreciate these switches in a more "traditional" layout.

Hey Hoff, I believe it's $325 excl. shipping and keys (so your choice of keys will add a little or you can use your own).

Yes, $325 sans caps, $350 with Unicomp caps.

[Elrick]

Yes, $325 sans caps, $350 with Unicomp caps.

Still cheaper than a scratch built Kmac  .

[againer]

are the smaller cases for the f62 still planed? How much would they aproximately coast?

[digi]

Can we get a carbon fiber infused case with little pink pony's hopping around with clacks as legs?

[Ellipse]

Cost would be the same for the smaller case, if there's enough interest.  With 10-20 keyboards' worth of interest in the smaller case right now, it doesn't look promising.  The parts will be interchangeable if you wanted to convert yours to a smaller case down the line.  You would only need to buy a different bottom inner assembly (plus the case itself).

As an update I am taking this week to fully evaluate the prototype parts that arrived yesterday.  I expect to open up orders once I'm finished and have taken a video and more professional photos.

[Melvang]

Will the HHKB style split right shift work with the standard layout but with reversed positions?  If so, this should allow the use of both styles, correct?  Or is the spacing between stems different?

[Ellipse]

I am validating some interesting and lesser-known Model F secrets. For example, every buckling spring's top end (touching the key) must terminate exactly at the 12 o'clock position or buckling is not as crisp.

On other sites they mentioned some things about the other end of the spring (the end touching the flipper) needing to be in a certain place, but I have found that to be less a priority than the side touching the key stem. Usually this did not make a difference as IBM was very good to make both of most of their spring ends terminate at exactly the same position on opposite sides. Looking at some XT flippers with their springs, I can't even see one error on IBM's part.

Melvang - yes you can have an HHKB-type layout with the standard layout if you are willing to have the 1U key to the left of the caps lock style key in the right shift area.  The split right shift board alters both right shift barrel positions to allow the caps lock key to the left and the 1U Function key to the right in the right shift area.

[fanpeople]

Cost would be the same for the smaller case, if there's enough interest.  With 10-20 keyboards' worth of interest in the smaller case right now, it doesn't look promising.  The parts will be interchangeable if you wanted to convert yours to a smaller case down the line.  You would only need to buy a different bottom inner assembly (plus the case itself).

As an update I am taking this week to fully evaluate the prototype parts that arrived yesterday.  I expect to open up orders once I'm finished and have taken a video and more professional photos.

are there any mockups of the smaller case? I think I am going with the f77 but I would be interested in a f62 with a smaller case.

How much interest would you need roughly for it to be worth it?

[Elrick]

On other sites they mentioned some things about the other end of the spring (the end touching the flipper) needing to be in a certain place, but I have found that to be less a priority than the side touching the key stem. Usually this did not make a difference as IBM was very good to make both of most of their spring ends terminate at exactly the same position on opposite sides. Looking at some XT flippers with their springs, I can't even see one error on IBM's part.

So if your design has matched the IBM standard then this should be successful?

Very interested in knowing if this resurrection of the Model-F is a triumph or another failure because trying to emulate their early designs isn't easy, maybe that is why all manufacturers didn't even try to build these switches once IBM dropped them, it's just way too complicated.

After all we're all interested in buying some Model-F keyboards that feel and sound like an authentic model made all those years ago.

[Bevo]

I'd also be one of the one interested in the more traditional TKL layout.

[Melvang]

I'd also be one of the one interested in the more traditional TKL layout.

The 77 is the closest you will get to a traditional TKL layout aside from the Xtant.

[ccc24]

Can't wait for this to drop..any pictures of the prototypes?

[Muffinbottoms]

Can we get a carbon fiber infused case with little pink pony's hopping around with clacks as legs?

I was with you until you said "clacks as legs". I'm 80% down to put ponies on my f62 if I could get it done Lisa Frank status.