[IC] F62+F77! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[bocahgundul]

Sploosh
Looking good ellipse

[Muffinbottoms]

More

Some more prototype photos here! I forgot to order a second caps lock key in the unprinted version so you are seeing one printed key on the F77 unprinted version of the photos in this group:

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AAAAhhhhhhhhhh, this place has just relieved me off a whole lot of moolah.

Suddenly Brazzers, NaughtyAmerica and DigitalPlayground are boring compared to this top Keyboard Pron site known as - Geekhack  .

Please give us more Ellipse, we want much more pics that includes lots of rear end shots here buddy, especially how the BIG Black Cord plants itself into the innocent Beige-like Casing  .

Welp, I now know Elrick likes interracial porn haha 

[ctm]

ctm the spacebars are the large spacebars from Unicomp.  Those are the only Unicomp ones that fit these keyboards. 

Your older Model M buckling spring space bars will also fit these keyboards.  Model F space bars will not fit as the wire stabilizer does not extend as far.

Thank you!

[Porsche]

I guess I am too hesitate but still want to ask a date.
Do you have any confirmed date of production? I really want to see them in my hand

[Ellipse]

They will be manufactured-to-order in March with delivery in April/May.

[Porsche]

Sounds great! I will be on your buyer list

[RyanArr]

Which options require different hardware (plate, foam, etc)? Just the split right shift? What about the ISO left shift, ISO return, and split backspace? Can all these changes be made by simply moving around springs + buying extra keys?

[FrostyToast]

Is it possible to delay or prolong the production order period so we can get some reviews and feedback from the early birds?

[Melvang]

Which options require different hardware (plate, foam, etc)? Just the split right shift? What about the ISO left shift, ISO return, and split backspace? Can all these changes be made by simply moving around springs + buying extra keys?

Correct, split right shift for true HHKB needs the different plate.  You can still use a split right shift with the standard plate, but the cap locations will be swapped.

[hashbaz]

This is indeed a glorious day. I'll be ordering early bird later tonight.

[Lurch]

[Ellipse]

hashbaz orders are not yet open - I will let everyone know once they open - it should be very soon!

Yes you only need different hardware for split right shift of the F77/F62.  The other variations can all be done with the same hardware (as you mentioned, just with opening it up and moving around flippers and springs).

FrostyToast the early bird round keyboards will ship in April/May, and the regular round goes until the end of July, so yes if you want to wait until August/September to get your keyboard you can wait for reviews to come out in May and place an order in the regular round.  There will be that two month period after the early bird keyboards ship that you can still order a keyboard.

What would you be looking for in a review?  Do you have any questions or want me to do anything specific to test the prototypes further than what I will show you in my forthcoming test video?  If you like Model M and Model F keyboards you will like these.  You can see the keyboards in operation in my forthcoming test video.  The prototypes have been fully assembled and I will be uploading a video soon testing them out, doing a quick teardown, and testing some other fully restored Model F and Model M keyboards from my collection.  Every keyboard sounds different!  I was able to type with close to 100% accuracy at around ~100 WPM with the new keyboards, and I have been using them throughout each day over the past few days (including as I make these posts!).  There have been no ghost keys or any other random problems with the prototype units - these prototypes could definitely be used as your main keyboards.

[Limewirelord]

Is there going to be another run after the early bird run?  I just made a relatively expensive life purchase and dunno if I can sink $350 for one.  Oh man it looks so worth it though 

[mashby]

If you have more than 10 early bird folks, does that drop the $100 early bird add-on?

[Ellipse]

Limewirelord yes there will be an early bird round with orders accepted in February, and then a regular round from March through the end of July.  The question is can you really wait until August/September to get your made-to-order keyboard 

mashby I was looking for 15 to be able to do the early bird round.  One unfortunately dropped out so we are at 11 $100 early bird tooling volunteers now.  If anyone else is willing to be a volunteer please let me know.  Not only do you help out the project and enable people to get their keyboards in April/May instead of August/September, but you also get prioritized in the order that I ship out the keyboards, you get a lower serial number, and you also get your user name on the label inside the keyboard along with all the other major project supporters.

[hashbaz]

hashbaz orders are not yet open - I will let everyone know once they open - it should be very soon!

Whoops, misread the OP.

If anyone else is willing to be a volunteer please let me know.  Not only do you help out the project and enable people to get their keyboards in April/May instead of August/September, but you also get prioritized in the order that I ship out the keyboards, you get a lower serial number, and you also get your user name on the label inside the keyboard along with all the other major project supporters.

PM'd

[Ellipse]

Thanks hashbaz!

Update on the small case:  I posted this reply to one of the questions someone posted on modelfkeyboards.com's Q&A page. 

The small case is happening, but not for about a month at least.  I have not yet started the prototyping process or determined whether there is enough interest to keep the pricing the same for the smaller case.  I will let everyone know on pricing in a few weeks once I get a quote from the factory.  The dimensions would be about 12.5 inches wide by 6-7 inches by about an inch tall.  These are very approximate estimates.  You'd be saving about 1.5 to 2 inches in width and about 1 inch in length.  The height would be about the same.

[tassadarforaiur]

So Ellipse, speaking for myself, one reason to wait on reviews from early birds is to find out about the quality of the fab's work when making multiple units, and another is to have more time to save up for these things.

[Elrick]

Thanks hashbaz!

Update on the small case:  I posted this reply to one of the questions someone posted on modelfkeyboards.com's Q&A page. 

You'd be saving about 1.5 to 2 inches in width and about 1 inch in length.  The height would be about the same.

Geez, so why bother?

Can't believe a couple of inches extra would hurt these darlings when using this Model-F keyboard, unbelievable  ) .

Stick with the original sizing, it's all GOOD.

[Techno Trousers]

So Ellipse, speaking for myself, one reason to wait on reviews from early birds is to find out about the quality of the fab's work when making multiple units, and another is to have more time to save up for these things.

I really like the 2-stage ordering process here. A quick first round for those who are early adopters and willing to tolerate some risk, and a second round to pick up the more cautious of us, as well as those who need to save up. Plus that will allow word-of-mouth to drive up demand after the early bird round, among those who haven't even heard about it yet. I think I'm most interested to see if there might even be a third round. It seems like there is a ton of interest already.

[pchatterjee]

Ellipse:

Could you make a board with this type of Model F layout at some point?

http://imgur.com/a/L2FR7

I love the mega large layout.

[fanpeople]

Ellipse:

Could you make a board with this type of Model F layout at some point?

http://imgur.com/a/L2FR7

I love the mega large layout.

Are you in the market for one of those?

[Ir0n]

Ellipse:

Could you make a board with this type of Model F layout at some point?

http://imgur.com/a/L2FR7

I love the mega large layout.

These aren't that hard to find o.o no need to make a new one

[FrostyToast]

Well obviously we need to compare the original and remake of the model f keyboards directly.
Comparison in sound tests with both audio and visualized sound graphs.
A force chart would also be helpful if that is possible to make.
Another additional thing that should be compared would be the miscellaneous physical properties like case construction and innards.

[Melvang]

Yeah, the F77, there are only two known specimens in the community last I knew.  The F62, a batch of ~50 was found a couple years ago, even before the xwhatsit controller was around iirc.  The F107 aren't really that tough to find though.

[fanpeople]

Well obviously we need to compare the original and remake of the model f keyboards directly.
Comparison in sound tests with both audio and visualized sound graphs.
A force chart would also be helpful if that is possible to make.
Another additional thing that should be compared would be the miscellaneous physical properties like case construction and innards.

I can tell you that the F107 that I stripped of paint had burrs and I guess you could call them lacerations under the original paint. The metal also appeared to not be consistent. I think fohat had the painting shop inform him that these were made of a scrap blend of aluminium. So from that perspective Ellipses version should be considered to be of a higher case quality than the originals as I am assuming his version will be using a decent standard of metal.

[Melvang]

Well obviously we need to compare the original and remake of the model f keyboards directly.
Comparison in sound tests with both audio and visualized sound graphs.
A force chart would also be helpful if that is possible to make.
Another additional thing that should be compared would be the miscellaneous physical properties like case construction and innards.

I can tell you that the F107 that I stripped of paint had burrs and I guess you could call them lacerations under the original paint. The metal also appeared to not be consistent. I think fohat had the painting shop inform him that these were made of a scrap blend of aluminium. So from that perspective Ellipses version should be considered to be of a higher case quality than the originals as I am assuming his version will be using a decent standard of metal.

Its not that it is a scrap blend, but the fact that it is cast, and there has been some speculation that it was aluminum or zinc the last I had heard.  Cast either of those, can have very inconsistent surface finish in a raw surface.

[Steveenn]

I would love to have one of these, but I can't convince myself to do it because I already have a Model F107...

[fanpeople]

Well obviously we need to compare the original and remake of the model f keyboards directly.
Comparison in sound tests with both audio and visualized sound graphs.
A force chart would also be helpful if that is possible to make.
Another additional thing that should be compared would be the miscellaneous physical properties like case construction and innards.

I can tell you that the F107 that I stripped of paint had burrs and I guess you could call them lacerations under the original paint. The metal also appeared to not be consistent. I think fohat had the painting shop inform him that these were made of a scrap blend of aluminium. So from that perspective Ellipses version should be considered to be of a higher case quality than the originals as I am assuming his version will be using a decent standard of metal.

Its not that it is a scrap blend, but the fact that it is cast, and there has been some speculation that it was aluminum or zinc the last I had heard.  Cast either of those, can have very inconsistent surface finish in a raw surface.

That would be the reason then because it was not pretty under the paint that is for sure. The gouges and jaggard bits of metal were quite large

[Melvang]

Well obviously we need to compare the original and remake of the model f keyboards directly.
Comparison in sound tests with both audio and visualized sound graphs.
A force chart would also be helpful if that is possible to make.
Another additional thing that should be compared would be the miscellaneous physical properties like case construction and innards.

I can tell you that the F107 that I stripped of paint had burrs and I guess you could call them lacerations under the original paint. The metal also appeared to not be consistent. I think fohat had the painting shop inform him that these were made of a scrap blend of aluminium. So from that perspective Ellipses version should be considered to be of a higher case quality than the originals as I am assuming his version will be using a decent standard of metal.

Its not that it is a scrap blend, but the fact that it is cast, and there has been some speculation that it was aluminum or zinc the last I had heard.  Cast either of those, can have very inconsistent surface finish in a raw surface.

That would be the reason then because it was not pretty under the paint that is for sure. The gouges and jaggard bits of metal were quite large

Could have been a cold pour as well, and then paint to cover the imperfections.

[Muffinbottoms]

Hey Ellipse!

How long until opting in for providing funds for the early bird tooling ends? My next paycheck isn't until the 3rd of February, but I think that'll be too late.

[fanpeople]

Well obviously we need to compare the original and remake of the model f keyboards directly.
Comparison in sound tests with both audio and visualized sound graphs.
A force chart would also be helpful if that is possible to make.
Another additional thing that should be compared would be the miscellaneous physical properties like case construction and innards.

I can tell you that the F107 that I stripped of paint had burrs and I guess you could call them lacerations under the original paint. The metal also appeared to not be consistent. I think fohat had the painting shop inform him that these were made of a scrap blend of aluminium. So from that perspective Ellipses version should be considered to be of a higher case quality than the originals as I am assuming his version will be using a decent standard of metal.

Its not that it is a scrap blend, but the fact that it is cast, and there has been some speculation that it was aluminum or zinc the last I had heard.  Cast either of those, can have very inconsistent surface finish in a raw surface.

That would be the reason then because it was not pretty under the paint that is for sure. The gouges and jaggard bits of metal were quite large

Could have been a cold pour as well, and then paint to cover the imperfections.

I think they probebly just pumped them out knowing that the paint would cover those bits i mean it was quite good with the paint eventhough the coat was worn.

[Ellipse]

FrostyToast I have put together a video with a typing test and a comparison of different Model F and M keyboards.  Please keep in mind that these are prototypes adjusted with hand tools because some measurements were off - they will not sound like the finalized production units. 

Every Model F keyboard and Model M keyboard in my collection sounds noticeably different - the goal of this project was not to exactly reproduce the sound of any one Model F keyboard, but I feel that these new Model F keyboards are truly in line with and deserve the moniker of a Model F keyboard as I posted earlier.

Muffinbottoms that is fine with me - you have until the end of February to place an early bird order.  For being an early bird tooling volunteer, please let me know as soon as possible but that's fine if you want to wait until early February to place your order.

Steveen my video compares the sound of an F107 example to the new production units.  It's really something to have a completely new Model F keyboard that will serve you well for many years and decades to come (hopefully).  The older units' springs and other parts may start to corrode or lose their springiness in the decades to come.  Many of them have developed a more "muffled" sound over the decades for some reason.

This is an early preview of the video - orders are still not yet open but will be very soon!

[Melvang]

How does the actuation force compare to the originals? 

[Ellipse]

The new F62/F77 springs will have the same actuation force as the originals.  The factory has a spring testing machine and has agreed to keep all springs within IBM's original tolerances, which are about three times narrower than with today's Model M's.  They tested various original Model F springs to help determine the correct starting point.  Of course brand new springs are slightly stiffer, even on originals, and take a little time to loosen up.

[Melvang]

The new F62/F77 springs will have the same actuation force as the originals.  The factory has a spring testing machine and has agreed to keep all springs within IBM's original tolerances, which are about three times narrower than with today's Model M's.  They tested various original Model F springs to help determine the correct starting point.  Of course brand new springs are slightly stiffer, even on originals, and take a little time to loosen up.

Sounds good.  With my F restoration services thread, I am planning on ordering a good sized sum of spring/hammer assemblies and some barrels for modifications and possible broken barrels, and was worried that there would be a noticeable feel difference for replacing a couple rusted original springs.

[Muffinbottoms]

Muffinbottoms that is fine with me - you have until the end of February to place an early bird order.  For being an early bird tooling volunteer, please let me know as soon as possible but that's fine if you want to wait until early February to place your order.

Yeah haha I wanted to try and help out with the early tooling. Alrighty! Lemme crunch some numbers and see if I can't chip in, although I think we would still be short two people right :c?

[Techno Trousers]

Great video! The new models definitely sound a lot tighter than the F-107 (and my F-122s).

[Air tree]

What shade of blue that unicomp offers is closer to the blue keycaps on the industrial boards? I'm not looking for exact colour, just the closest one.


http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/PRK

[Ellipse]

I picked their dark blue color.  You can see their Industrial SSK caps installed on the F77 on modelfkeyboards.com

[ImAWildDeer]

I picked their dark blue color.  You can see their Industrial SSK caps installed on the F77 on modelfkeyboards.com

Ellipse, does this mean orders are open on that site?

[pchatterjee]

Ellipse:

Could you make a board with this type of Model F layout at some point?

http://imgur.com/a/L2FR7

I love the mega large layout.

Are you in the market for one of those?

I would be in the market for one of those but I would want it NIB (I would be shocked if that were possible) or something thats fully restored.

I would really like a modernized version for the F107 like ellipse is doing for the F77.  I personally really like full sized keyboards far more than other types -- hence I will get the F77 instead of the F62.  A properly restored or modernized F107 would be great.

[againer]

Thanks hashbaz!

Update on the small case:  I posted this reply to one of the questions someone posted on modelfkeyboards.com's Q&A page. 

The small case is happening, but not for about a month at least.  I have not yet started the prototyping process or determined whether there is enough interest to keep the pricing the same for the smaller case.  I will let everyone know on pricing in a few weeks once I get a quote from the factory.  The dimensions would be about 12.5 inches wide by 6-7 inches by about an inch tall.  These are very approximate estimates.  You'd be saving about 1.5 to 2 inches in width and about 1 inch in length.  The height would be about the same.

Will it be possible to just change the case if you buy the original case, and in the second run just the small case, or are some changes made to the other parts too?

[HoffmanMyster]

Hey Ellipse, could you offer any more details/transparency on the early bird funding?  Usually when people fund the purchasing of tooling (which can be used again and again, well after the initial run), they see some sort of financial kickback (as it is an investment) as opposed to a slightly quicker ship date and their name on the product.  I'm curious to know where my $100 would be going if I decided to join the early bird round, and who would see this profit (if it exists - who knows, maybe everyone is just volunteering their time for this).

Of course there is the aspect of simply wanting to support the community's efforts, and I would never try to undermine this or question that notion.  I'm not intending to make everything about money and stir up anything there, I'm just genuinely curious about this, as it's a big struggle for me.  I want to support the project, but I'd like to know more.  And to be entirely honest, the events that unfolded after discovering the F77 don't instill the highest degree of confidence regarding this subject. 

I hope I'm not stepping on any toes or going out of line here, I am truly and genuinely interested in this project succeeding. 

[Limewirelord]

Limewirelord yes there will be an early bird round with orders accepted in February, and then a regular round from March through the end of July.  The question is can you really wait until August/September to get your made-to-order keyboard 

mashby I was looking for 15 to be able to do the early bird round.  One unfortunately dropped out so we are at 11 $100 early bird tooling volunteers now.  If anyone else is willing to be a volunteer please let me know.  Not only do you help out the project and enable people to get their keyboards in April/May instead of August/September, but you also get prioritized in the order that I ship out the keyboards, you get a lower serial number, and you also get your user name on the label inside the keyboard along with all the other major project supporters.

Sounds like a better timeline for most group buys if that's a 2 month turnaround time form July to September    I can wait if I have to especially if that means there's a possibility for a smaller case 

[Ellipse]

ImAWildDeer - orders are not yet open.  They should be open soon though!

againer yes it will be possible to change the case if you want to downsize for the second round.  Just the case and the bottom inner assembly (a $20 part) would be needed - the rest of the parts will be identical most likely.

Hoffman - The early bird tooling volunteers are helping pay the project's tooling costs for an additional, earlier round to get their keyboards in April/May instead of August September.  Their payment also benefits them in other ways, including getting their keyboard tested and shipped out to them earlier than everyone else in the round - this could mean up to maybe a month earlier as I am testing every unit one by one before it goes out and that could take a long time.  Tooling involves the cost in labor to set up everything needed for production and of setting up the machines that make a product.  Once my run is done, they will re-tool the machine to make something else.  You may be thinking of molds specifically, which can be used at a later point in time - not the reason for the tooling volunteers.

Limewirelord-yes production is expected to take about a month, as the factory needs to do their tooling (adjusting the machines and their configuration to be set up to make these parts) and then do the production run and product assembly.  Then sea mail shipping will take 2-4 weeks from China to me.  The early bird round will also take about a month for production and 2-4 weeks for shipping to me. 

[HoffmanMyster]

Hoffman - The early bird tooling volunteers are helping pay the project's tooling costs for an additional, earlier round to get their keyboards in April/May instead of August September.  Their payment also benefits them in other ways, including getting their keyboard tested and shipped out to them earlier than everyone else in the round - this could mean up to maybe a month earlier as I am testing every unit one by one before it goes out and that could take a long time.  Tooling involves the cost in labor to set up everything needed for production and of setting up the machines that make a product.

Thank you for the response, that explains things really well.  And the below is the key factor that I was missing - makes perfect sense, thanks again for clarifying. 

Once my run is done, they will re-tool the machine to make something else.  You may be thinking of molds specifically, which can be used at a later point in time - not the reason for the tooling volunteers.

I am currently on the fence about early birding - have you mentioned a time frame that we would need to decide by?  Sorry if I missed it somewhere.

[tassadarforaiur]

Once my run is done, they will re-tool the machine to make something else.  You may be thinking of molds specifically, which can be used at a later point in time - not the reason for the tooling volunteers.

I am currently on the fence about early birding - have you mentioned a time frame that we would need to decide by?  Sorry if I missed it somewhere.

Muffinbottoms that is fine with me - you have until the end of February to place an early bird order.  For being an early bird tooling volunteer, please let me know as soon as possible but that's fine if you want to wait until early February to place your order.

not a concrete answer, but the most relevant one I found.

[hashbaz]

Hoffman - The early bird tooling volunteers are helping pay the project's tooling costs for an additional, earlier round

Why is there a separate early round at all? Will adjustments be made to the main round based on the early round?

[FrostyToast]

Hoffman - The early bird tooling volunteers are helping pay the project's tooling costs for an additional, earlier round

Why is there a separate early round at all? Will adjustments be made to the main round based on the early round?

One major benefit is that we can get in a lot of reviews from community members before the main run.
This means that anyone unsure of this project can wait until some reviews come out to see if the board is worth it's salt.
If there are any manufacturing flaws or defects that haven't been caught those can also be resolved.