Author Topic: [IC] F62+F77! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards (Read 379004 times)

hashbaz · « **Reply #1300 on:** Wed, 24 February 2016, 20:57:07 »

Quote from: romevi on Wed, 24 February 2016, 19:53:31

I think it'd be easier to have the IC closed and everything discussed in the GB. Maybe even open a new thread to discuss the small case design?

Just a thought.

Strongly agree. Having two threads is confusing and pointless.

Techno Trousers · « **Reply #1301 on:** Wed, 24 February 2016, 23:24:55 »

I think the angle of the plate when the keyboard is at its lowest position should match that of the originals. I retrained myself to always type on flat keyboards after researching RSI and seeing how bad it is to type with your wrists at a negative angle. If the case is set so the bottom of the plate and the bottom row of keys is flat, and it angles up and away like an F122, that's perfect.

Those who want a raised back can always prop it up somehow, but if that angle's baked in, like some of those extreme Korean customs I've seen, then those who want a flat typing angle are out of luck.

If you're worried about extra noise, maybe you could make two risers that are like long triangles pointing towards the front? How about a matching pair of rubber doorstops? Or some kind of rubber shims?

Ellipse · « **Reply #1302 on:** Thu, 25 February 2016, 19:29:23 »

Yep Techno my original F77 and my 122-key Model F both have approximately the same angle, which I will use for the new F77/F62s as well.

Cods · « **Reply #1303 on:** Fri, 26 February 2016, 15:46:26 »

Ordered and earlybird donation sorted.

Muramasa · « **Reply #1304 on:** Fri, 26 February 2016, 17:10:20 »

Just wanted to say that I would be interested in the ultra-small case!

Ellipse · « **Reply #1305 on:** Sat, 27 February 2016, 13:45:40 »

As an update, the factory is still looking over my draft designs for the small case.

A discussion also started over on DT regarding my original project goal to produce high quality, XT style, one piece keycaps for this project. The project has definitely exceeded expectations with over $65,000 in orders in the first month, so I will look more into making my own one-piece keys of the highest quality for this project. It is making less and less sense to put $10,000 towards Unicomp caps when those funds could go towards the one-piece XT quality production. The factory has dye-sub capabilities and equipment and is willing to take on keycap production. I would probably have to make all the molds because of the slight color difference in Unicomp/IBM Model M caps vs. XT caps. Nothing is finalized just yet!

ryahirv · « **Reply #1306 on:** Sat, 27 February 2016, 13:55:44 »

Quote from: Ellipse on Sat, 27 February 2016, 13:45:40

As an update, the factory is still looking over my draft designs for the small case.

A discussion also started over on DT regarding my original project goal to produce high quality, XT style, one piece keycaps for this project. The project has definitely exceeded expectations with over $65,000 in orders in the first month, so I will look more into making my own one-piece keys of the highest quality for this project. It is making less and less sense to put $10,000 towards Unicomp caps when those funds could go towards the one-piece XT quality production. The factory has dye-sub capabilities and equipment and is willing to take on keycap production. I would probably have to make all the molds because of the slight color difference in Unicomp/IBM Model M caps vs. XT caps. Nothing is finalized just yet!

Yes, yes, YES on keycaps!!

Elrick · « **Reply #1307 on:** Sat, 27 February 2016, 23:02:05 »

Quote from: Ellipse on Sat, 27 February 2016, 13:45:40

A discussion also started over on DT regarding my original project goal to produce high quality, XT style, one piece keycaps for this project. The project has definitely exceeded expectations with over $65,000 in orders in the first month, so I will look more into making my own one-piece keys of the highest quality for this project. It is making less and less sense to put $10,000 towards Unicomp caps when those funds could go towards the one-piece XT quality production. The factory has dye-sub capabilities and equipment and is willing to take on keycap production. I would probably have to make all the molds because of the slight color difference in Unicomp/IBM Model M caps vs. XT caps. Nothing is finalized just yet!

Agree with you 100% because why throw away valuable funds to a Company that literally doesn't care about what they are producing, anymore.

Far better to give it to someone that is willing to produce QUALITY key-caps, instead of begging Unicomp to pull their lazy thumbs out of their own Arse-holes. Please see that these one piece wonders get made elsewhere instead of crawling to Unicomp to have them done. Never reward laziness with hard earned cash because it furthers their incapacity to do anything valuable, for the Buckling Spring legend.

Techno Trousers · « **Reply #1308 on:** Sat, 27 February 2016, 23:20:12 »

So who would produce them? Vortex? If they get BS molds it will have me dreaming of double shot PBT!

Ellipse · « **Reply #1309 on:** Sun, 28 February 2016, 11:33:05 »

They would be made by the factory and I would be ordering the buckling spring molds, same as with the other molds for this project.

joey · « **Reply #1310 on:** Sun, 28 February 2016, 11:43:39 »

Quote from: Ellipse on Sun, 28 February 2016, 11:33:05

They would be made by the factory and I would be ordering the buckling spring molds, same as with the other molds for this project.

Would that be part of this GB still?

Ellipse · « **Reply #1311 on:** Sun, 28 February 2016, 12:20:49 »

Yes, I am hoping to order the keys direct from the factory I've been working with on the other molds. These would be for everyone for this project instead of the Unicomp keys. That's the only way they can be made in a cost effective way - I'd need to make a few hundred sets with the new molds if anyone is to get one piece sets. This was one of my original intentions when starting the project, if order volumes were sufficient (which at $65,000+ after one month they are!).

It's also possible to get black unprinted one piece keys with no shine since I'm ordering the molds anyways.

Those with custom orders outside of the regular pearl/pebble/black would probably still need to be sourced from Unicomp.

joey · « **Reply #1312 on:** Sun, 28 February 2016, 17:30:22 »

I'm assuming it would affect shipping times? Can you really get the moulds made and do a test run / quality check in time for shipping in April/May?

ctm · « **Reply #1313 on:** Sun, 28 February 2016, 19:30:30 »

Are the new caps going to be different color than Unicomp ones? I was thinking about putting Ctrl caps (to replace caps lock) and Fn caps from Unicomp.

Ellipse · « **Reply #1314 on:** Sun, 28 February 2016, 19:34:11 »

ctm the new caps will be pearl/pebble. If you are picky like me yes the shades of the colors can be told apart when both keys are next to each other. But the factory should have the capability to make switched legends on the ctrl and caps lock keys, as well as printing Fn for the function key.

Also I am looking into having a non-stepped caps lock and non-stepped split right shift key for this project, as part of the one-piece keys being made from scratch in China. Of course extras could be ordered - extra key sets and non-stepped 1.75U keys.

Belfong · « **Reply #1315 on:** Sun, 28 February 2016, 21:06:08 »

I was seriously considering a F77 until I see the shipping cost! Ouch! I think I should just backed out now. What a bummer!

Ellipse · « **Reply #1316 on:** Sun, 28 February 2016, 21:21:17 »

Yes Belfong unfortunately the US Postal Service significantly increased their rates last month for international shipments.

You can also combine shipping with other people ordering from your country, or maybe from nearby Australia? I know someone was trying to arrange a group buy to Australia:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79147.msg2029834#msg2029834

one keyboard to Malaysia is $85 and two would be $127 total according to the USPS.com web site

Elrick · « **Reply #1317 on:** Mon, 29 February 2016, 04:38:46 »

Quote from: Belfong on Sun, 28 February 2016, 21:06:08

I was seriously considering a F77 until I see the shipping cost! Ouch! I think I should just backed out now. What a bummer!

Don't worry, you just showed everyone here you weren't serious about this keyboard to begin with sunshine

.

ctm · « **Reply #1318 on:** Mon, 29 February 2016, 07:56:25 »

Quote from: Ellipse on Sun, 28 February 2016, 19:34:11

ctm the new caps will be pearl/pebble. If you are picky like me yes the shades of the colors can be told apart when both keys are next to each other. But the factory should have the capability to make switched legends on the ctrl and caps lock keys, as well as printing Fn for the function key.

Also I am looking into having a non-stepped caps lock and non-stepped split right shift key for this project, as part of the one-piece keys being made from scratch in China. Of course extras could be ordered - extra key sets and non-stepped 1.75U keys.

Will 1.75U ctrl and 1.5u Fn be on the plan? Also will this set ship with early bird Model F's in April/May?

laden3 · « **Reply #1319 on:** Mon, 29 February 2016, 07:57:52 »

Sold my kidney, ordered F77

againer · « **Reply #1320 on:** Mon, 29 February 2016, 17:07:14 »

Is it possible to print any layout on those one-pice keycaps or are only blanks and US-ANSI layout caps offered?

atectatifern · « **Reply #1321 on:** Mon, 29 February 2016, 17:32:13 »

Pulled trigger, just under the wire.

Ellipse · « **Reply #1322 on:** Mon, 29 February 2016, 22:11:36 »

againer I am hoping to print a limited number of additional keys with my plans to create brand new one-piece XT quality key molds - not a whole APL set or anything too intense.

ctm yes 1.5U keys and 1.75U keys will be available. The early consensus is for non-stepped caps lock and non-stepped short right shift key (both of which have long been out of production). If most people prefer non-stepped keys I will order the mold to be non-stepped (I can't order both molds for cost reasons).

laden3 · « **Reply #1323 on:** Mon, 29 February 2016, 23:53:22 »

Ellipse,

For those who participated in the early bird round, are we getting unicomp keycaps or are you going to make them?

About the unicomp keycaps, are there non-stepped caps lock?

ryahirv · « **Reply #1324 on:** Tue, 01 March 2016, 17:41:44 »

Non stepped is my pref for sure

romevi · « **Reply #1325 on:** Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:17:31 »

Quote from: ryahirv on Tue, 01 March 2016, 17:41:44

Non stepped is my pref for sure

I vomit in your general direction.

Ellipse · « **Reply #1326 on:** Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:30:15 »

laden3 everyone would be getting the higher quality one-piece keys that I expect to make, including the early birds.

Unicomp has non-stepped caps lock so you'd always be able to buy a key from them for $2 if you prefer the caps lock to be stepped but want the XT quality one piece keys.

ryahirv · « **Reply #1327 on:** Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:33:26 »

Quote from: romevi on Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:17:31

Quote from: ryahirv on Tue, 01 March 2016, 17:41:44
Non stepped is my pref for sure

I vomit in your general direction.

I deflect it back in your direction... ;-)

Steezus · « **Reply #1328 on:** Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:35:37 »

Why is there an IC and GB thread currently active? Why not just lock down this thread and continue the conversation on the GB thread since it's no longer in interest check stage. Two threads is pointless.

Elrick · « **Reply #1329 on:** Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:35:59 »

Quote from: romevi on Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:17:31

Quote from: ryahirv on Tue, 01 March 2016, 17:41:44
Non stepped is my pref for sure

I vomit in your general direction.

Add mine to yours please. We shall cover him, in our response to his ignorant preference

.

Quote from: Steezus on Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:35:37

Why is there an IC and GB thread currently active? Why not just lock down this thread and continue the conversation on the GB thread since it's no longer in interest check stage. Two threads is pointless.

Why? Having two threads is like having a stereophonic diary of this monumental Group Buy here.

We need this and am glad Ellipse is making it happen each and every day, if you can't stand it, then step away from GH and join the mainstream idiots situated elsewhere on the web.

cjhard · « **Reply #1330 on:** Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:56:32 »

Would it be possible for orders with regular blank's to upgrade to legends once the new non-unicomp caps are ready? I never look at the legends, but I quite like fonts. I only was interested in Unicomp blanks to keep springs in place, but now I have interest in a legit keyset if you are making your own

Will they be dyesub like the originals? Same font and style? Will you be hosting periodic BS Keycap GB's with fun colors and fonts?

ctm · « **Reply #1331 on:** Tue, 01 March 2016, 20:12:15 »

Quote from: Ellipse on Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:30:15

laden3 everyone would be getting the higher quality one-piece keys that I expect to make, including the early birds.

Unicomp has non-stepped caps lock so you'd always be able to buy a key from them for $2 if you prefer the caps lock to be stepped but want the XT quality one piece keys.

Do you mean new XT quality cap production will be finished in about one month? I have never seen such fast keycap production

(have been waiting for Matias PBT caps for a year and still waiting...)

laden3 · « **Reply #1332 on:** Wed, 02 March 2016, 08:11:06 »

Quote from: ctm on Tue, 01 March 2016, 20:12:15

Quote from: Ellipse on Tue, 01 March 2016, 18:30:15
laden3 everyone would be getting the higher quality one-piece keys that I expect to make, including the early birds.

Unicomp has non-stepped caps lock so you'd always be able to buy a key from them for $2 if you prefer the caps lock to be stepped but want the XT quality one piece keys.
Do you mean new XT quality cap production will be finished in about one month? I have never seen such fast keycap production (have been waiting for Matias PBT caps for a year and still waiting...)

Actually I am wondering about the same thing.

Ellipse · « **Reply #1333 on:** Wed, 02 March 2016, 16:54:50 »

ctm - I specified a shipping timeframe of April/May, meaning production will definitely take more than one month.

With delays on the factory side in getting back to me and getting everything ready for production, we are looking towards the latter end of that April/May timeframe in my updated estimate.

I want to get every detail right for this project even if it causes a delay. The factory has been very patient with me so far

ctm · « **Reply #1334 on:** Wed, 02 March 2016, 20:28:32 »

Quote from: Ellipse on Wed, 02 March 2016, 16:54:50

ctm - I specified a shipping timeframe of April/May, meaning production will definitely take more than one month.

With delays on the factory side in getting back to me and getting everything ready for production, we are looking towards the latter end of that April/May timeframe in my updated estimate.

I want to get every detail right for this project even if it causes a delay. The factory has been very patient with me so far

That's still a very tight time frame. Tooling prototyping etc... Very impressive

btw, how different does XT caps feel compared to Unicomp? I have only tried Unicomp caps and find them to be very nice.

Ludovician · « **Reply #1335 on:** Wed, 02 March 2016, 22:26:11 »

Similar question: How different are the XT-style caps to AT caps? I have a Model F AT with one-piece caps.

hashbaz · « **Reply #1336 on:** Thu, 03 March 2016, 14:03:51 »

Quote from: ctm on Wed, 02 March 2016, 20:28:32

Quote from: Ellipse on Wed, 02 March 2016, 16:54:50
ctm - I specified a shipping timeframe of April/May, meaning production will definitely take more than one month.

With delays on the factory side in getting back to me and getting everything ready for production, we are looking towards the latter end of that April/May timeframe in my updated estimate.

I want to get every detail right for this project even if it causes a delay. The factory has been very patient with me so far
That's still a very tight time frame. Tooling prototyping etc... Very impressive

Yeah I agree. Three months production time is basically instant gratification on this forum.

)

Elrick · « **Reply #1337 on:** Thu, 03 March 2016, 17:09:32 »

Quote from: hashbaz on Thu, 03 March 2016, 14:03:51

Yeah I agree. Three months production time is basically instant gratification on this forum. )

As long as it doesn't turn into a Kin25 type of Group Buy here, then this will be superb without question

.

hashbaz · « **Reply #1338 on:** Thu, 03 March 2016, 17:40:06 »

I'm unfamiliar with vintage XT keycaps vs. Unicomp's modern output. Can someone summarize?

Techno Trousers · « **Reply #1339 on:** Thu, 03 March 2016, 17:53:10 »

I'd really like to see a picture of key cap samples all lined up: F XT, F AT, old school M 2-piece, current Unicomp 2-piece. Of course add Ellipse's 1-piece caps when they are produced.

Ellipse · « **Reply #1340 on:** Thu, 03 March 2016, 18:30:24 »

ctm - two-piece Unicomp caps in my opinion are comparable to some later production, original run Model M caps - the legends are less thick/bold and the top of the key caps are more shiny/slippery. They are still great to use.

The XT caps are one-piece, deep black legends, with a more textured key surface.

I wouldn't say all XT caps are better than AT - it depends on the date of manufacture of your keyboard and the amount of wear on the keys. 1984 and earlier tend to have the best quality in my experience.

Here are photos of the one piece keys on my NIB F77 (original), NIB PC AT, and little-used F122 (photos in that respective order):

For the F122 photo I have placed two Model M key caps (the "O" and "K" keys) on top of the original Model F keys for comparison.

The shininess is not actually in person but just due to the camera flash. It is difficult to photograph the keys 100% accurately.

ctm · « **Reply #1341 on:** Thu, 03 March 2016, 22:21:47 »

Quote from: Ellipse on Thu, 03 March 2016, 18:30:24

ctm - two-piece Unicomp caps in my opinion are comparable to some later production, original run Model M caps - the legends are less thick/bold and the top of the key caps are more shiny/slippery. They are still great to use.

The XT caps are one-piece, deep black legends, with a more textured key surface.

I wouldn't say all XT caps are better than AT - it depends on the date of manufacture of your keyboard and the amount of wear on the keys. 1984 and earlier tend to have the best quality in my experience.

Here are photos of the one piece keys on my NIB F77 (original), NIB PC AT, and little-used F122 (photos in that respective order):

For the F122 photo I have placed two Model M key caps (the "O" and "K" keys) on top of the original Model F keys for comparison.

The shininess is not actually in person but just due to the camera flash. It is difficult to photograph the keys 100% accurately.
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)
(Attachment Link)

Wow they look great! Have you decided what non-standard legends will be included in the set? I vote for 1.75u Ctrl, 1.5u Fn and 1u Alt (I want to make right part of bottom row Fn-Alt-Ctrl and would like to replace caps lock with Ctrl).

Ellipse · « **Reply #1342 on:** Fri, 04 March 2016, 18:05:41 »

ctm I don't believe the factory is limited to printing certain legends only on certain key caps - I will look more into this in the coming weeks.

Elrick · « **Reply #1343 on:** Sat, 05 March 2016, 04:12:31 »

Quote from: Ellipse on Fri, 04 March 2016, 18:05:41

ctm I don't believe the factory is limited to printing certain legends only on certain key caps - I will look more into this in the coming weeks.

How embarrassing for Unicomp, a new Chinese Company doing better things with dye-sub PBTs, than they could ever achieve. Goes to show when it comes to producing the absolute BEST buckling Spring keyboards with keycaps, it's all coming out of Asia.

Pleasantly surprised and looking forward to their range of caps

.

Bevo · « **Reply #1344 on:** Sat, 05 March 2016, 06:46:24 »

How do you think these caps will compare with the original IBM caps that are coming with my board?

ctm · « **Reply #1345 on:** Sat, 05 March 2016, 09:23:42 »

Quote from: Ellipse on Fri, 04 March 2016, 18:05:41

ctm I don't believe the factory is limited to printing certain legends only on certain key caps - I will look more into this in the coming weeks.

I was more concerned about whether there will be enough interest to produce those caps, especially 1u Alt.

Ellipse · « **Reply #1346 on:** Sun, 06 March 2016, 11:41:26 »

Oh - it may be a special custom request then - not sure just yet on the pricing for those.

Ellipse · « **Reply #1347 on:** Tue, 08 March 2016, 16:35:41 »

Check out the GB thread for this project for the link to the Hackaday article regarding the group buy - please keep discussion over there for the article!

Ellipse · « **Reply #1348 on:** Wed, 09 March 2016, 20:43:46 »

Still no updates yet on the ultra compact cases. They are definitely happening but the factory is still looking into it.

phoenix_fire512 · « **Reply #1349 on:** Thu, 10 March 2016, 18:13:28 »

Hello. Just joined so I could express my interest in purchasing an "ultra-compact" F77.

P.S. I've wanted a more compact BS keyboard for awhile... I had a bit of hope in the Unicomp SSK-like 83 key model that may never actually come into existence... found out about the Model M SSK, but was disappointed at the prices they go for... but then I found this! I can get a brand new compact BS keyboard that uses the better Model F design along with improved hardware, all for a better price too.

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Author Topic: [IC] F62+F77! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards (Read 379004 times)