Trade Etiquette and Responsibilities

[jcrouse]

I am interested in everyone's pinion on a situation. I am sure with all the transactions here that situations like this have happened many times before.

A trade, with items of an approximate value of $200, is agreed to by two people that are International to each other. Party A sends his item first and gets tracking and insurance. He sends the tracking number to person B and asks him to get tracking and insurance also. A few days later person B sends his package but does not get tracking or insurance. He then sends person A a PM telling him the item was shipped.

The package person A sent to person B arrives in 10 or 12 days. The package person B sent to person A doesn't arrive, or at leeast hasn't in 5 or 6 weeks. Person B also sent out packages to two other people at the same time as the package he sent to person A. One package is destined to the came country as Person A's package and the other to a different country. Neither of those packages have arrived either.

Who is obligated to what in this situation?

Thanks,
John

[alaricljs]

Everything pertaining to a trade should be agreed upon prior to the commencement of shipping.  This includes the shipping details.  If insurance/tracking was not part of the trade agreement it's not a requirement.

By contract law, both parties have fulfilled their obligations if the agreement is what it appears to be.

[Michael]

I always insist that a tracking number is provided, especially international. I think the party that failed to provide the tracking as agreed upon, is responsible.

[sth]

depends on the cost of acquiring insurance and tracking -- i know for some things it is prohibitively expensive to get those when sending out of the US compared to the cost of sending out of, say the UK.

but it sounds like something shady MIGHT be going on if 'person B' reportedly sent out 3 packages that never arrived.

[jcrouse]

but it sounds like something shady MIGHT be going on if 'person B' reportedly sent out 3 packages that never arrived.

Well, obviously I am person A here.

That said, person B will always be unnamed.

It depends on how you look at it. Three times seems impossiblee. HOWEVER, if all 3 were together and a "larger container" got misplaced, a boat sank or something on a larger scale, it makes perfect sense. Personally, I believe nothing shady is going on. Person B is a great guy and somewhat of a victim also, unfortunately, maybe three times.

John

[Michael]

but it sounds like something shady MIGHT be going on if 'person B' reportedly sent out 3 packages that never arrived.

Well, obviously I am person A here.

That said, person B will always be unnamed.

It depends on how you look at it. Three times seems impossiblee. HOWEVER, if all 3 were together and a "larger container" got misplaced, a boat sank or something on a larger scale, it makes perfect sense. Personally, I believe nothing shady is going on. Person B is a great guy and somewhat of a victim also, unfortunately, maybe three times.

John

Regardless, if they agreed to provide tracking information and then did not, how will they cover your loss if it is indeed, lost?

[fohat.digs]

Always a pain. USPS is the only realistic way to ship international, and tracking usually stops when the item hits the port (for me, in Atlanta, that is usually Miami). So it is observed trundling on its merry way for the first few days, until it sails and then goes dark to the tracking system.

Then, I hold my breath for somewhere between half a week and 2 weeks hoping that someone will email me and say "hey, thanks"

Since a good international flat rate keyboard box recently went from $58 to $78, I doubt that I will be selling much international any more.

But to the OP and his question - I think that 3 people may well have gotten screwed here.

[jcrouse]

I can only speak for myself and am making no accusations what-so-ever as to what person B will do. He has not had a chance to respond yet. However, if it were me, I would feel terrible and return the item to person A. Of course I am probably a little bias.   

John

[jcrouse]

I think that 3 people may well have gotten screwed here.

Well, that would be based solely on the actions of person B moving forward. Possibly it is just a normal risk of doing business. I could be view as being that simple.

John

[IvanIvanovich]

Registered mail always has the tracking number and insured value carried on internationally, or at least is supposed to. First class plus registered is cheaper than priority also, or at least it was before the rate change. It's the only way I will send anything of high value or extremely rare items since I can track it door to door though sometimes there is a few days delay between delivery and it being marked as such in the computer system.
6 weeks or more is not unheard of for international, especially from certain contries like Italy or Russia of example which can take months in my expierience. Sometimes things just get delayed in customs too. I had to wait 4 weeks for something to turn up from Germany just recently, while another item sent within a day or two arrived in a week, and a third I am still waiting on.

[fohat.digs]

I once sold a rare jazz LP for nearly $200 and sent it via registered mail to the Czech Republic. (at the time, Paypal was not an option, and the buyer had mailed me 10 crisp US $20 bills in an envelope!)

The registration showed it arriving in Czech customs, then nothing. The buyer was furious, and told me that he knew my address and that if he ever came to the States he would "mess me up" along with my family.

Clearly, someone in the Czech post had simply taken it, and there was no further record of it, not even enough to make the basis for a claim! This was approximately 2 months after I shipped it. There is always the chance that it had turned up much later.

I still feel bad about it, but did not refund the buyer. I had ripped a CD copy for myself, so I sent him a copy of that, but I never heard anything else.

As far as I am concerned, I had completely fulfilled my obligations.

[Soarer]

Always a pain. USPS is the only realistic way to ship international, and tracking usually stops when the item hits the port (for me, in Atlanta, that is usually Miami). So it is observed trundling on its merry way for the first few days, until it sails and then goes dark to the tracking system.

Depending on where it's going, you should usually be able to find it on the tracking system in the receiving country. For example in the UK that would be Parcelforce or Royal Mail. While the package is still in the US or above the Atlantic, it just says 'notified' on the UK site, but when it lands it gets a new tracking number and continues tracking (the original number can still be used to look it up).

[Tym]

Off topic slightly but I quite like this one, just bought an item from china, paid an extra 3$ for tracked shipping. it's marked as dispatched follow the tracking details and apparently my item is in customs in Germany....why ? I live in the UK why has some German bloke decided he wants a peak in my package?

If you pardon the pun. Also person b seems in the red if you asked for tracking.

[kmiller8]

I recently shipped something international and after two months of it not showing up, I offered to comp him for the price he paid. Even though it wasn't my fault it got stuck in the mail, I feel as if it's the shippers responsibility to ensure that whatever you ship makes it's to its destination. I think there is an argument somewhere about who's responsibility it is after an item ships, and there are good arguments on both sides, I'll maybe google around and link what I was talking about later.

Having said that, apparently this is just a trade, so I'm not sure if there would be an exact monetary value what could be assigned to the items. Also after two months (2 months 4 hours 30 minutes 29 seconds to be approximate) the package finally showed up. So personally, I'd say don't give up hope. But imo, it's the responsibility of the seller to ensure that his items reach you safely.

[metalliqaz]

I lost a set of Cherry DS  that were shipped from UK.  The seller offered to refund me but I haven't taken him up on it.  I think I will offer to split it.  After that experience I will avoid getting anything shipped airmail from overseas and at a minimum always insist on tracking.  Your situation is really tough.  If you didn't insist on tracking up front I dunno what you can do.

I will add this: my Filco controller from bpiphany took 12 weeks to get to my door.  In fact it was assumed lost and the replacement arrived long before the original. 

[esoomenona]

Something like this happened between me and nntnam. We agreed to ship with tracking, he shipped his EMS with tracking, and when I went to ship mine, it was the first time I had ever shipped internationally, so wasn't aware of what to do. I ended up shipping it first class international. He was worried because he had had things get lost sent to him like that before, so I began to be worried. If it had gotten lost in the mail, I would've felt responsible being we did have an agreement beforehand, and it was my mistake. Luckily everything made it to their intended parties.

[alaricljs]

I once had a standard letter take 4 weeks to make it from Connecticut to Florida.  Sometimes USPS is just insane.

[Turbo Slaab]

Always a pain. USPS is the only realistic way to ship international, and tracking usually stops when the item hits the port (for me, in Atlanta, that is usually Miami). So it is observed trundling on its merry way for the first few days, until it sails and then goes dark to the tracking system.

Then, I hold my breath for somewhere between half a week and 2 weeks hoping that someone will email me and say "hey, thanks"

This. I never understood what good a tracking number is sending internationally when once it hits land it disappears.....

[alaricljs]

This. I never understood what good a tracking number is sending internationally when once it hits land it disappears.....

Mind you I paid $2.84 shipping for a packet from China, got tracking the entire way and it took 7 days.

[RougeR]

id say keep waiting a bit longer perhaps

[jcrouse]

id say keep waiting a bit longer perhaps

I think you're correct. Maybe I'll give 10 or 12 weeks and see what happens.

[dorkvader]

Something similar recently happened to me in my international proxying. I shipped two items to the same country the same day. One mad it safely, the other only has tracking until it leaves the USA.

After waiting for some time, they still haven't received it. What I'm planning on doing is, after next payday, I'll see about mailing them a similar item I happen to have, or refund their fee, etc. I don't think it's my fault if something got lost (neither is it their fault for not opting for more expensive priority mail with insurance) but I do feel bad for them, so I want to do what I can to make things right, even if it means taking a loss.

Fortunately, the item in question was not that expensive. I strongly encourage anyone shipping internationally to get insurance, though it is more expensive.

Having learned from this, I always ask the person what sort of shipping method they want, and I try to tell them upfront about insurance and loss/breakage. Better to get these things sorted out ahead of time.

[IvanIvanovich]

That is true. If someone does not want to pay extra for tracking and/or insurance I won't refuse sale, but simply insist on gift payment (so it is not possible to file a dispute) and stress it is not my responsibility after I put it in the post.

[lazerpointer]

This thread is seriously concerning. There can be no such thing as a "no fault" loss scenario. I would raise HELL.

[fohat.digs]

So, I, as a US seller, am financially responsible for petty larceny within the Czech Post Office?

This is a nasty and ugly situation, but, really, who takes up the slack for other people's incompetence or dishonesty?

The buyer's jazz record (it belonged to him, after I accepted his payment and shipped it via Registered Mail) made it safely into the Czech Republic Post Office system, with clear directions as to its final destination.

How can anyone ask me to do more?

This is a very real question.

PS - after Lysol's comment - I am an ebay seller and also "someone here" it really doesn't matter, does it?


Where does "ownership" change hands?

[IvanIvanovich]

Surely it sucks when package is lost or destroyed by the post, but it is not the sender fault. I have been on both sides, and while I can be upset that I didn't get the item, if I elected not to have insurance I can hardly blame the seller unless it was due to doing something stupid like send keyboard in only a paper envelope. Yes, that scenario really happened but it was an ebay seller not someone here.

[jdcarpe]

A package I sent to a buyer in Canada got lost in the mail with a few Geekhack badges in it. They didn't cost much, so I just sent him a second package. I had sent them first class, so no tracking. Tracking and insurance would have cost more than the contents were worth. I wasn't really obligated to replace them, but I did it anyway, just so the buyer would be happy.

The buyer received the second shipment just fine. To my knowledge, the first package never showed up. Maybe they got delivered to someone else, or maybe a nice Canadian customs agent has some Geekhack badges now. Who knows?

From now on, anything I ship international will have tracking and insurance. I may not be able to track it after it leaves the US, but at least I have proof of mailing. And I could possibly file an insurance claim if the package never arrives to its destination.

This thread is seriously concerning. There can be no such thing as a "no fault" loss scenario. I would raise HELL.

What if the fault lies with the postal services? It's not the buyer's fault the package got lost. It's also not the seller's fault, if he has proof of mailing and a correct address. So with whom would you raise hell? Paypal? Not exactly fair to the seller to do a chargeback, as he no longer has the item he sold, assuming he has some kind of proof that he mailed it. It's also not fair to the buyer, who is out the money, and has nothing to show for it, also through no fault of his own. If these things aren't understood and agreed by both parties prior to the sale and shipping, who is at fault?

[fohat.digs]

To reiterate, and be absolutely clear:

Where does ownership change hands?

That is the crux of the question, as I see it.

[RougeR]

where do we stand on DOAs when item was very well packaged?
i.e the post office must have litterally thrown it against a brick wall repeatedly?

(had something happen to me when i was the seller)
also how do we know the buyer has not damaged it or shown another damaged one..very hard to tell on serials, they can be faked etc

[Krogenar]

To reiterate, and be absolutely clear:

Where does ownership change hands?

That is the crux of the question, as I see it.

In my business we use the acronym FOB (Free on Board, sometimes Freight on Board). Our estimates state 'FOB Factory' which means that at the moment we ship something, ownership passes to the person receiving the shipment. It's still our responsibility to pack it properly, use the agreed upon shipping service, provide a tracking number and add insurance (if requested) but the moment the shipping agent picks something up, our responsibility ends the customer's begins. This is a technicality, however, not something we tend to enforce. It just basically means that we cannot be responsible if the FedEx guy drop kicks your package all the way to your door.

So, responsibility passes to the shipper (or the buyer) once it is in their hands. If you really wanted to be perfectly safe in all dealings, photograph the packaging and packing of the product, email it to them. Put insurance on it. But in the case of international shipping the cost can be prohibitive, so we allow for more risk rather than insuring the package. That's between the buyer and the seller.

For more on the fascinating minutia of this shipping term, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_On_Board

Legalisms aside, it's in everyone's best interests to do whatever they can do to make the transaction a happy one. Trust is the basis of all business, because even if everyone does everything right, sometimes things still go wrong. Even if I ship something to a client and technically I am not to blame for a mishap, standing on legal niceties is not usually the right choice. It's almost always in my best interests to do whatever I can to make it right, in the long term. I will contact the shipper, make calls on their behalf, etc. and be as helpful as I can be. That's the right way to do things.

Sometimes you know you're with the right partner (personally and in business) not when things are going great, but when they're all screwed up. If it's your screwup and you fix it, they now know you can be trusted to make things right. If it's their fault, or no one's fault, and you still make it right, then you've built some trust.

[Krogenar]

Having learned from this, I always ask the person what sort of shipping method they want, and I try to tell them upfront about insurance and loss/breakage. Better to get these things sorted out ahead of time.

Also, this. 1000% Managing a customer's expectations is crucial.

[fohat.digs]

where do we stand on DOAs when item was very well packaged?
i.e the post office must have litterally thrown it against a brick wall repeatedly?

(had something happen to me when i was the seller)
also how do we know the buyer has not damaged it or shown another damaged one..very hard to tell on serials, they can be faked etc

1. If a bad item was received, then (a) it was already bad when it was shipped - seller's responsibility and fault, or (b) it became bad in transit - carrier's responsibility

2. Deception on the part of the buyer, eg faked serial numbers, are buyers responsibility and fault (take photos) - prima fascia dishonesty and are a separate issue.

I would like for this conversation to be about responsibility and not about dishonesty.

[lazerpointer]

It's the post people's responsibility to reimburse the people who payed for / used the shipping service. There HAS to be some legal action to take against this loss.... Hasn't there??

[RougeR]

you cant really, insured shipping for a heavy item overseas is well not cost effective, guy didnt pursue me on it lucklily (was a monitor...i sent to lativia..i know i know), and iuninsured only gets like 30-50gbp compensation depending on shipping type
basically my lesson that i learnt is
ship heavy **** insured and only sell heavy **** within your country...also bomb proof the package...bomb proof it again and write down serials+photograph

[fohat.digs]

Ebay is profoundly prejudiced in favor of buyers and against sellers. That is probably a big reason for its success.

I am approximately equal parts buyer and seller. It has been my experience that about 2%-5% of transactions go bad, for whatever reasons. That is the "cost of doing business" on both ends.

The item is clearly in the hands of the seller until it leaves his hands. His honorable duty is to describe the item accurately, package it securely, and ship it properly to the address supplied by the buyer.

When the item arrives in the hands of the buyer, it is his responsibility to accept it, if it was the item he ordered, described accurately and delivered properly.

There is opportunity for various kinds of dishonesty on both ends, and opportunity for all manner of mishaps during shipping.

The gray area between leaving the seller's hands and arriving in the buyer's hands cannot be placed on the seller, in my opinion. If I sell you an item, package it carefully, and post it properly to the address you provided me, I have fulfilled my obligations. If the Post Office loses it or damages it, then I, the seller, do not owe you a replacement or refund.

Personally, I have given numerous refunds and replacements, out of "the goodness of my heart", and only twice have I ever received replacements, for which I was quite grateful.

As far as I am concerned, a seller who replaces an item lost or damaged by the shipper in shipment is doing so "above and beyond the call of duty"

[RougeR]

Ebay is profoundly prejudiced in favor of buyers and against sellers. That is probably a big reason for its success.

I am approximately equal parts buyer and seller. It has been my experience that about 2%-5% of transactions go bad, for whatever reasons. That is the "cost of doing business" on both ends.

The item is clearly in the hands of the seller until it leaves his hands. His honorable duty is to describe the item accurately, package it securely, and ship it properly to the address supplied by the buyer.

When the item arrives in the hands of the buyer, it is his responsibility to accept it, if it was the item he ordered, described accurately and delivered properly.

There is opportunity for various kinds of dishonesty on both ends, and opportunity for all manner of mishaps during shipping.

The gray area between leaving the seller's hands and arriving in the buyer's hands cannot be placed on the seller, in my opinion. If I sell you an item, package it carefully, and post it properly to the address you provided me, I have fulfilled my obligations. If the Post Office loses it or damages it, then I, the seller, do not owe you a replacement or refund.

Personally, I have given numerous refunds and replacements, out of "the goodness of my heart", and only twice have I ever received replacements, for which I was quite grateful.

As far as I am concerned, a seller who replaces an item lost or damaged by the shipper in shipment is doing so "above and beyond the call of duty"

i agree with this very much so
an interesting case was that with my m15 where it was obviously **** packaging which caused damage, i did at least get a partial refund and ended up swallowing my pride and taking it.

i think as a big comercial seller when something arrives DOA then it should be your responsibility to replace it and it is good buisness practice to honour this, you should still take precautions to prevent dishonesty
private small sellers cannot often afford this and i really do think responsibility ends at shipping especially if tracked and insured or just tracked if insurance is uneconomical

[aggiejy]

From now on, anything I ship international will have tracking and insurance. I may not be able to track it after it leaves the US, but at least I have proof of mailing. And I could possibly file an insurance claim if the package never arrives to its destination.

^^^ This... I know this topic is something that worried the heck out of me in my first group buy.  I had a lot of (big) orders going to places overseas.  At the time, they were mostly priority, but even then there wasn't tracking... just a receipt I mailed it.  But what good does that do if person B claims they never got it?  It's not A or B's fault, it's the evil postman's fault. 

In short, insurance should be a requirement for anything that the parities can't agree beforehand on who will be responsible if package gets lost. 

But that said, without an agreement in place, I'd have to say that if the sender can show proof of sending, the loss goes on the receiver.  If they can't, then loss goes on the sender.  That keeps people honest from cheating anyway.  Only insurance accounts for a man-in-the-middle attack.

[AKIMbO]

To reiterate, and be absolutely clear:

Where does ownership change hands?

That is the crux of the question, as I see it.

In my business we use the acronym FOB (Free on Board, sometimes Freight on Board). Our estimates state 'FOB Factory' which means that at the moment we ship something, ownership passes to the person receiving the shipment. It's still our responsibility to pack it properly, use the agreed upon shipping service, provide a tracking number and add insurance (if requested) but the moment the shipping agent picks something up, our responsibility ends the customer's begins. This is a technicality, however, not something we tend to enforce. It just basically means that we cannot be responsible if the FedEx guy drop kicks your package all the way to your door.

So, responsibility passes to the shipper (or the buyer) once it is in their hands. If you really wanted to be perfectly safe in all dealings, photograph the packaging and packing of the product, email it to them. Put insurance on it. But in the case of international shipping the cost can be prohibitive, so we allow for more risk rather than insuring the package. That's between the buyer and the seller.

For more on the fascinating minutia of this shipping term, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_On_Board

Legalisms aside, it's in everyone's best interests to do whatever they can do to make the transaction a happy one. Trust is the basis of all business, because even if everyone does everything right, sometimes things still go wrong. Even if I ship something to a client and technically I am not to blame for a mishap, standing on legal niceties is not usually the right choice. It's almost always in my best interests to do whatever I can to make it right, in the long term. I will contact the shipper, make calls on their behalf, etc. and be as helpful as I can be. That's the right way to do things.

Sometimes you know you're with the right partner (personally and in business) not when things are going great, but when they're all screwed up. If it's your screwup and you fix it, they now know you can be trusted to make things right. If it's their fault, or no one's fault, and you still make it right, then you've built some trust.

For commercial/business purposes FOB shipping & FOB destination are agreed upon (either explicitly or through adhesion).  Plus, the use of either FOB shipping or FOB destination has inventory recognition implications for accounting purposes.  Thus, there's more than legal implications in play when deciding on the FOB designation (if choosing a FOB designation is an option in the first place).

For private party hobbyist transactions, I would argue FOB shipping should be the norm (ie. title passes from seller to buyer upon delivery of the item to the common carrier...assuming the item/parcel has been addressed correctly).  In reality, who knows....it will probably end up with a paypal dispute and we all know how paypal loves sellers.

[Bullveyr]

Dunno about the US but in Germany (and probably the whole EU) the difference between a "professional seller" and a private one is important.

Professional seller is responsible for transport, if it gets lost/damaged it's his problem.
Private seller isn't responsible for the transport (if proper packed), after he brought it to the post office it becomes the buyers problem, ofc the seller must provide the buyer the proper infos (recipe, tracking, ...) if necessary.