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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: sealcouch on Mon, 12 July 2010, 01:39:58

Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: sealcouch on Mon, 12 July 2010, 01:39:58
So, I kind of accidentally purchased a Model M, 1392595. Is there some sort of simple mod I can perform to make this work on my PC? Or if not, any tips on selling it?

First post, btw. fantastic forum.
Title: just a cable-swap
Post by: dfj on Mon, 12 July 2010, 05:27:02
Quote from: sealcouch;201851
So, I kind of accidentally purchased a Model M, 1392595. Is there some sort of simple mod I can perform to make this work on my PC? Or if not, any tips on selling it?

First post, btw. fantastic forum.
 
  OK - that is a 102 key M, so in all likelyhood it supports Mode 2 just fine. Hence, all it needs is to be plugged into a computer.
  If it has that strange jack (it looks like an RJ45, but is bigger and has two clips on the sides rather than one on the  top) on the back of the keyboard, any Model M cable will suffice, but the jack is soldered to the controller so it will be a pain to swap if you don't have one.
  If the end of the connector is a normal RJ45, you can make an RJ45->PS2 cable converter assuming you can scrounge a female RJ45 port and a spare PS2 cable from some-place (e.g. old mice).

  On most IBM keyboard connectors for RJ45 the colours are, from left to right, looking at the connector with it pointing up, and the clip away from yourself:
empty
empty
black:    5V (yes 5V on black - it's not my fault)
red:       data
yellow:   clock
white:    ground
silver: (ground/shield)
empty

The colours on other PS2 cables are totally different for each one, so you will need to probe the pins and ends of the wire to figure out which goes where before wiring up the cable. Some sort of meter or even a continuity tester will suffice  for this.

fer yer edification: (from http://www.computer-engineering.org/ps2protocol/ )

Male
                      (http://www.computer-engineering.org/ps2protocol/spindin.JPG)            
          (Plug)                                                                                                                                                  

Female
                      (http://www.computer-engineering.org/ps2protocol/spindin1.JPG)            
          (Socket)

6-pin Mini-DIN (PS/2):  
          1 - Data
          2 - Not Implemented
          3 - Ground
          4 - Vcc (+5V)
           5 - Clock
          6 - Not Implemented
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: unicomp on Mon, 12 July 2010, 09:58:22
You could beat someone to death with it and then keep typing on it, just as long as your sort out the issue of typing on it in the first place. A rather inconspicuous murder weapon, as long as you don't leave any key prints on the victim.
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: dfj on Mon, 12 July 2010, 19:20:24
Ah, not to worry, I've converted a few of the terminal 122 ones with a RJ45 - they were mode 3 like yours, except running on a different cable.
 This is a 102, and while poorly documented it is clearly using the IBM serial rather than parallel protocol since it _cannot_ be using the parallel one with only 5 wires.
  The exciting question is not whether it will work electrically, it is whether it will boot to Mode 3 or to mode 2.
  If it boots to mode 3, but supports mode 2, then one should check the board for a jumper in case it can be changed at that point, else it is as much fun to support as your (Kishy's) terminal boards, i.e. the driver patch will be needed.
 
  I expect that it boots to mode 2, however, and not even a jumper change will be needed. After a cable swap it will likely just work. If not, and you (sealcouch) don' want to do the driver stunt, then please don't get rid of it! someone here will surely want it as it is less than common. :)

Yup,
dfj
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: sealcouch on Mon, 12 July 2010, 23:38:58
Wow, thanks for all of the help. I wonder why they don't just sell a converter for this kind of thing. Having little to no experience with electronics, I may just list it for sale on the site. I'd rather someone perform the mod and have an awesome working keyboard, than me screw it up completely. Also, I noticed the guy I bought it from sent it with a broken key stem on the Ctrl button, so I'm going to have to order that before I can even sell it. *sigh*
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: sealcouch on Tue, 13 July 2010, 01:30:13
I live in Kentucky, about an hour away from the Unicomp place. Haha.
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: sealcouch on Tue, 13 July 2010, 11:11:58
I would try the swap if I had an extra board lying around. I really don't have the money to spend on buying one either. I'm going to email Unicomp for the hell of it.
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: sealcouch on Tue, 13 July 2010, 11:42:11
Yeah, there are no LEDs on it. I will post a picture in a bit.
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: sealcouch on Tue, 13 July 2010, 18:12:48
(http://imgur.com/bGMx0l.jpg)
(http://imgur.com/kacUsl.jpg)
note the missing keycap. =[
(http://imgur.com/ZEBCQl.jpg)

It seems as if it would be a perfect fit for a 1391401 board.
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: sealcouch on Tue, 13 July 2010, 18:55:06
No worries though, I just ordered a replacement key cap.
Title: f8 - no worries.
Post by: dfj on Tue, 13 July 2010, 20:14:32
Quote from: kishy;202386
Bummer that you're missing F8...I have F7 and F9 as spares, but no F8.

I think I have an F8 - all that is needed now is either an old PS2-cable from somewhere, a 7/32" or 5.5 mm long, narrow socket, and a bit of luck.

Just get the thing working and the keycap is yers, I just need to figure out a way to get it under 2 cm in an envelope to save $0.50 in extra postage. :)

yup,
dfj
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: sealcouch on Tue, 13 July 2010, 22:28:33
I'm afraid it's a bit more complicated. I took the keyboard apart and the wiring is entirely different from the PS/2 or AT style keyboards. Also most schematics I've seen with the Ethernet style adapter have 6 wires on the end, this one only has 5.
 I'm really just considering swapping the boards entirely and then switching the keys.
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: dfj on Tue, 13 July 2010, 22:42:41
Yes - it has 5 - I could swear I described the signals on them above, though. -.-

the cable likely connects to a little black 6-pin thingy stuck into the side of the board - with only four wires connected. The other (fifth) is the ground and will be conected to a sturdy wire to the frame in some fashion, typically.

is this the case?
dfj
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: sealcouch on Tue, 13 July 2010, 22:56:22
Yes'sir.
Title: ok sweet:
Post by: dfj on Tue, 13 July 2010, 23:09:56
Quote from: sealcouch;202463
Yes'sir.

then yer almost done, you did the hard part which is getting the bloody thing open. :)

At this point you will want a PS2 cable from something that you will need to be willing to cut the base off of so you can connect it in place of the little black connector.

looking at the side of the board, the pins look like so:

o o o
o o o

we can number them like this:
1 2 3
4 5 6

then 1 and two are unconnected, 3 will be 5v, 4 clock, 5 ground, and 6 data.

you can look at my earlier post in this thread to see if IBM used the same colours for your RJ45 connector as mine - if so, then you can confirm what the wires do a little that way.

I have lots of scrap connectors so I don't bother cutting the ends off of the IBM cables, but quite frankly, I don' much like the RJ45 boards I have, so I would be totally willing to cut the original cable if I ran out of connectors otherwise.

once you have a PS2 cable and want to test it on a computer, things will get more fun, though.

looking forward,
dfj
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: sealcouch on Tue, 13 July 2010, 23:42:53
I'm going to give it a whirl tomorrow, but chances are it will probably end up for sale. Haha.
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: sealcouch on Wed, 14 July 2010, 21:09:57
It's for sale now. I just couldn't bring myself to do it.
http://geekhack.org/classifieds.php?do=showad&adid=484&title=ibm-model-m-terminal-1392595
Title: Terminal model
Post by: bettablue on Sun, 06 February 2011, 21:55:51
I have heard that the terminal models are not compatible for PC use, so I found this article interesting.  I got my model M by asking a lot of people at work if they had one they were willing to part with.  I was finally given a new in box model M by a co-worker, but for some reason it didn't look right.  It was manufactured in Oct of 1994, but had a bunch of extra keys.  Yep, it was a terminal model.  I ended up trading it with another co-worker the next day for another model M that was not nearly as clean and obviously had been used hard and put away wet.  But this one was what I was looking for.  After a good cleaning, it looks like new.  There are no sctratches or chips anywhere.  And, I got a better deal too...  The model M I got in exchenge was manufatured on Feb 10, 1989 and has the extra long coiled cord with a PS2 connector.  It was missing 3 of the key caps, but a quick order from clickykeyboards.com and my board is just like new.  Even the coils in the cable are still wound tight and doesn't appear to have been stretched out at all.  You may be able to find someone who wants a terminal board.  All you have to do is ask.  Like me, you just might be surprised.
Title: cruel kish
Post by: dfj on Mon, 07 February 2011, 17:24:00
Quote from: kishy;291416
The terminal Ms are AT-compatible, just a different plug and a couple software-interpretation bugs.

Otherwise known as compatible.

  So, with a cable swap it will work in your bios and likely bootloader and even DOS - on a PC.
 However, the PS/2 drivers are bugged against terminal boards in both windows (all since '95, I believe) and linux, though we've nearly managed to get a patch into the stream which will support it next linux kernel cycle.
  Driver patches are being maintained by for both linux and 'dose, at present, though not for hackintoshes. As fer BSD, no clue.
  There are also two teensy (and++) implementations, for converting directly to USB, as well as (I think) a hoary kbdbabel converter to normal PS/2.
  Both teensy implementations are not-quite released as open-source yet, but can be had from the folks on the IRC channel #geekhack if you can stand it there. :P the kbdbabel implementation (if it exists) is hampered by the current CVS security problem on SourceForge, and the fact that it would use an 8051 which is often a one-shot, burn-wise. You want to buy a few, since if you flash them wrong then they are permanently flashed wrong. They are also tiny and old, and only programmable in assembly, so you won't have use for them for other projects if you get bored of the keyboard conversion.
 
  So, compatible, sort of... different amounts of work to get going, depending on how much fun you want to have. That said, a number of us use the terminal IBM boards (F and M) as our main keyboards after the conversion - they are truly awesome, with extra special sound and feel.

  Be sure to ask us more if you decide to reacquire the beast as a conversion project. We are always delighted to help corrupt new folks.

yupyup,
dfj
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: bombcar on Wed, 09 February 2011, 08:27:29
I have that keyboard on a purple cube adapter on my Mac, and it works, but all those extra keys don't seem to do much.

I'd pay good money for a replacement controller that would unlock the power of those keys.
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: ch_123 on Wed, 09 February 2011, 11:43:53
USB adapters drop the extra scancodes.
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: JohnElliott on Fri, 11 February 2011, 14:39:34
Quote from: ch_123;292302
USB adapters drop the extra scancodes.


What's needed is a PS/2 to USB converter that lets you use a custom set of scancode mappings. I don't suppose anyone's aware of one?
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: ch_123 on Fri, 11 February 2011, 14:44:49
If you make your own PS/2 to USB adapter, you can get around that problem. Didn't someone around here make one recently?
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: theferenc on Fri, 11 February 2011, 14:45:12
Quote from: JohnElliott;293523
What's needed is a PS/2 to USB converter that lets you use a custom set of scancode mappings. I don't suppose anyone's aware of one?


Actually, I'm currently hacking hasu's teensy project to add those scan codes back in, for the keyboard in ripster's post.

So yes, we are aware of one, but it's a sort of DIY type converter. It's in the mods section, and I'll be posting back any code changes I make, so people should be able to take advantage of it, so long as they have a teensy or a teensy++.
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: dfj on Sat, 12 February 2011, 07:59:42
Quote from: theferenc;293535
Actually, I'm currently hacking hasu's teensy project to add those scan codes back in, for the keyboard in ripster's post.

So yes, we are aware of one, but it's a sort of DIY type converter. It's in the mods section, and I'll be posting back any code changes I make, so people should be able to take advantage of it, so long as they have a teensy or a teensy++.

Ah, I should take a look at hasu's mod, then. Soarer and myself have also written teensy(++) based converters (we also both supported nkro  over USB, though this  doesn't matter for an M).
  With the 122 conversion it is a little trickier for the ones like you and ripster have, as they sometimes generate a sequence of scancodes representing ctrl or shifted standard keys instead of a normal press-release.
  On the unicomp, at least, there was a jumper found that reverted the keyboard to one-key : one scancode press and release.
  I don't have that particular one that rip and yourself have, so I am not certain what is mapped to what combinations, nor what it defaults to, nor whether it switches mode.
  On the current unicomps, though, there is even an eeprom to control the layout, so replacing it with a new one is an option as well.
  But, because of these issues, and possibly extra bytes at the initialization of the keyboard, cheap mass-produced USB converters are likely to continue to struggle for a long time at supporting the older and odder AT-like hardware.

g'luck
dfj
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: ch_123 on Sat, 12 February 2011, 11:59:36
On a not entirely related note, one of the most unusual AT-style terminal keyboard screwups I've seen was when I plugged my AT Model F into my SGI Indy workstation. The Indy (and many other early PS/2 SGI boxes) used Scancode set 3 like IBM's terminal keyboards do. So, Ctrl on the AT Model F (located where Caps Lock is on a modern keyboard) became Caps Lock, and the Alt and Caps Lock buttons became Controls. I'm pretty sure the F keys didn't work - probably due to them assuming the scan codes of the special purpose keys on the IBM 104/122 key terminal boards.
Title: the extra Function keys...
Post by: bithead9 on Sat, 13 August 2011, 13:22:25
I've used that keyboard before (Model M 1397000).  IBM used them on PCs that had 3270 terminal emulation installed. Those keys could be used in ISPF when accessing mainframe applications.  As far as I know, they are useless for normal PC application software.  I am sure you could hack something to utilize them but its not standard...
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: bithead9 on Sat, 13 August 2011, 13:28:00
I just refurbed a ModelM Part# 42H1292 nice clicky keys.  Mfg. for IBM by Lexmark. 1996.  Converted it to USB with a PS/2 USB dongle.  I unsoldered the original wires and soldered on a nice long USB cable and used the original ps/2 header wire - wrapped it all in heat shrink tubing.  Works great and is recongnized even on Windows 7 now.  My next project is the Model M - 1392595 Mfg. March 1988.  Missing a couple keys caps.(SEND and RESET I think)
Title: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: hasu on Mon, 06 February 2012, 20:55:05
I got a 1392595 same as OP's. It is my first buckling spring.
I made RJ45-MiniDIN adapter as dfj described and hooked it up with Soarer's converter. As a result it works fine. Thanks, guys.

As you know this board speaks in Scan Code Set 3 not 2 so that no luck with commercial PS2-USB converter and BIOS I have.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: gnopgnip on Fri, 07 September 2012, 04:13:28
Would an rj45 to PS/2 adapter like that work for a 1395660?
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: dfj on Fri, 07 September 2012, 04:46:17
Yup, totally - a 1395660 is what I worked on originally, way back.
1395660 -> (rj45 - ps/2 cable) -> (mode 3 - usb converter (soarer's works great) ) -> computer.

g'lucks.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: gnopgnip on Fri, 07 September 2012, 07:57:01
Would it work without a usb converter just plugging into a PS/2 port?
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: dfj on Fri, 07 September 2012, 10:24:29
Not really.
On certain (but not all) old bios it used to be possible to edit text for the first little bit as long as you didn't hit any extended keys, but that era is long gone and even if your mainboard supports PS/2, it won't be happy. Regardless, it will freak out windows later on unless you hack the windows i8042 and keyboard driver.
  Dealing with the old windows code was a pita, I gave up and wrote a fresh firmware instead, the rarely seen 'dfj-verter' just for mode 3. Soarer also wrote a converter - but his was originally targeted at providing nkro for the IBM F - type XT, AT and other PS/2 keyboards that support it. Adding mode-3 support was straightforward for him (well, me also - mode 3 is much simpler than the default for PS/2 which is mode '2'.)
  Hence - replace the cable with a PS/2 cable, and hook to a soarer converter. This is the fun option. It also gets you a handy converter for other keyboards you might collect over the next bit.
  If you really don't want to do extra cabling until needed you can wire the converter straight to the pin-header inside the IBM board, and let the IBM have a USB cable instead.
  If you are fine soldering electronics, this will be very easy as the soarer converter uses a teensy 2.0. If not, order one with pins and it can be setup with jumpers and/or a solderless breadboard.

Sadly, many of the images associated with posts on this forum got trashed this spring - if you ask particular individuals in question about the images in particular important posts, they might know where they saved their backups... worth a try, at least.

more lucks ; }
dfj

Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: mich on Fri, 07 September 2012, 22:15:22
Would it work without a usb converter just plugging into a PS/2 port?
Kinda.
Linux can be patched to support it. There are patched drivers available for some versions of Windows. Neither works out of the box.
My ASUS M5A78L-M/USB3 mobo's bios works with it (but behaves as if the keyboard had the old PC AT layout), my MSI 760GM-E51 bios doesn't.

I use this keyboard on my main machine (with this ASUS mobo) running Linux and it works fine, with all 122 keys being available.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: gnopgnip on Sat, 08 September 2012, 11:08:05
With a teensy usb converter like soarer's is it possible to map the winkey to one of the other keys? Is it possible to make other macros? I heave learned a lot about how these older keyboards work reading through documentation.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: dfj on Sat, 08 September 2012, 19:53:03
Individual keys can be remapped using soarer's mod, though I'm not as clear how the macros work.
  I gave him a nudge so he can elucidate, and remind us where it is and how to use it. (we are often on irc).
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: Soarer on Sat, 08 September 2012, 20:02:03
Anything can be remapped with my converter, and you can make other macros :)

Grab the v1.0 download from the project page (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17458.0), it has fairly full documentation of the config stuff, although it could do with me adding more examples!
Title: Re: just a cable-swap
Post by: GoodAsh03 on Fri, 04 January 2013, 16:34:55
  If the end of the connector is a normal RJ45, you can make an RJ45->PS2 cable converter assuming you can scrounge a female RJ45 port and a spare PS2 cable from some-place (e.g. old mice).

  On most IBM keyboard connectors for RJ45 the colours are, from left to right, looking at the connector with it pointing up, and the clip away from yourself:
empty
empty
black:    5V (yes 5V on black - it's not my fault)
red:       data
yellow:   clock
white:    ground
silver: (ground/shield)
empty

The colours on other PS2 cables are totally different for each one, so you will need to probe the pins and ends of the wire to figure out which goes where before wiring up the cable. Some sort of meter or even a continuity tester will suffice  for this.

Male
                     
Show Image
(http://www.computer-engineering.org/ps2protocol/spindin.JPG)
             
          (Plug)                                                                                                                                                   

Hi all. Total n00b here. I came across this thread via Google. I got an old IBM model M 1395665 keyboard from work. It has an RJ45 connector as dfj described above. I put together an RJ45 > PS/2 adapter using his description. When I hooked it up it kind of worked. The J key works perfectly! But when I press other keys I get some random stuff. For example, when I press 1 I get "1234" on the screen. I can post more output if it would help.

The keyboard's connector:
(http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/62/photo20130104023335pm.jpg)
1. empty
2. empty
3. black
4. red
5. yellow
6. light grey
7. black
8. empty

My adapter:
(http://imageshack.us/scaled/medium/819/photo20130104023350pm.jpg)
I used a continuity tester to make sure I was connecting everything as dfj described it in his reply.

What do you think? Thanks a lot for any advice.

Jeremy
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: Soarer on Sat, 26 January 2013, 15:43:29
Since it's terminal keyboard you'll need to plug it into something that can understand it (scan code set 3) - like a modified linux, or my converter.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: mich on Sun, 27 January 2013, 04:59:27
Scancode set 3 keyboard interpreted as scancode set 2 behaves like the original "non-extended" AT keyboard:
- alphanumeric block works normally with few exceptions: CapsLock is left CTRL, left CTRL is left ALT and right ALT is CapsLock
- numpad works normally, but: NumLock is ESC, Enter is +, + is -, / is NumLock
- the keys on the left are F1-F10
- keys which didn't exist in AT produce garbage

Also, there is no repetition nor break codes.

IMO it shouldn't turn "1" into "1234", but maybe it's Windows going crazy :) I'd try it on Linux or Soarer's adapter.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: dfj on Wed, 30 January 2013, 13:53:38
I agree : a USB converter is likely desired, and Soarer's works very well.

Just to share some random details, however:
I'm  not certain what you mean by no repetition or break codes - but set 3 has a slightly different config setup,
http://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/ibm_1390876.html goes into some decent detail.
The default at startup is for some keys to have started in make/break - namely the metas, and for most of the rest to have started in repeat mode.
Unlike a 1390141, it doesn't let keys be in both make-break and repeat, though. The good way to handle this is by setting f8 (all keys make/break) in your adapter (e.g. Soarer's will do this for you) and then when seen as a USB keyboard, the host OS will handle the repeat for you as normal.

also don't know what's up with the 1234 - :/
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: Krogenar on Wed, 30 January 2013, 14:36:01
I'm going to give it a whirl tomorrow, but chances are it will probably end up for sale. Haha.

Once you get it working you might find it harder to part with -- just something about bringing it back to active life again that causes this!
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: x2o on Tue, 05 February 2013, 08:53:40
Going to give Soarer's converter a whirl, I just aquired a Model M 1392595 (1988 iirc) from a friend who was going to throw it away  (:eek:)

My first terminal model M, should be interesting to see if I can get it working



update: Got the teensy2.0 in and all is working well :)
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: SirReallySam on Wed, 02 October 2013, 15:14:28
Thanks for this, can see where the cables come of the RJ45 please can you help by telling me where each cable goes onto the PS/2 cable?
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: fohat.digs on Wed, 02 October 2013, 16:15:31
Thanks for this, can see where the cables come of the RJ45 please can you help by telling me where each cable goes onto the PS/2 cable?

You need to intercept the signal and run it through the converter. My post #901 in Soarer's thread shows the adapter that I made.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17458.0
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: hasu on Wed, 02 October 2013, 18:44:30
Thanks for this, can see where the cables come of the RJ45 please can you help by telling me where each cable goes onto the PS/2 cable?

Hope this helps.
(http://www.kbdbabel.org/conn/kbd_connector_ibmterm.png)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS/2_connector
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: fohat.digs on Wed, 02 October 2013, 20:32:05
Oh, that. Here they all are in one place.

Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: lkong on Sun, 19 April 2015, 21:57:20
Sorry for bumping up the old thread. Im working on exact same keyboard and encountered some problem.
I have a 1392595 and teensy running hasu's firmware. all connections are good.
But it wont register any key.

I tried to use hid_listen, the keyboard keeps outputing code "wFF" non stop.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: fohat.digs on Sun, 19 April 2015, 22:25:35
2/3 of these problems are the result of mirror-image hookups.

The diagrams show the socket pins, not the cable that you are holding in your fingers.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: Snowdog993 on Mon, 20 April 2015, 03:00:57
Try this:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61878.msg1721863#msg1721863

And yes...  you can also do it to the 1392595, etc etc.... 
Just go to my gallery of pictures in my sig to see more transformations.
(http://i.imgur.com/JpdGegy.jpg)
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: lkong on Mon, 20 April 2015, 22:26:22
Try this:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61878.msg1721863#msg1721863

And yes...  you can also do it to the 1392595, etc etc.... 
Just go to my gallery of pictures in my sig to see more transformations.
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/JpdGegy.jpg)


If i had a faulty controller I'd rather fabricate a alternative controller for that instead of trying my luck on ebay.

I'm trying figure out here is: is looping on print "wFF" in debug console a software issue or a hardware one.

Thanks for the advise
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: Snowdog993 on Mon, 20 April 2015, 22:41:58
You can order the controller from Unicomp as well.

The replacement logic assembly for 1391401 is $20. To order use the link below:
http://pckeyboard.com/page/KBDCFG/CUSTOM
Enter qty 2
In the customization box enter "logic assembly 1378170"

Edit: I had to dig through all the Unicomp service tickets to finally find it.  Same controller.  Same price too.

Oh yeah!  I nearly forgot! The 4pin 4P 4 pin Arduino jumper cable.  I bought them to make my job easier.  Worth every penny.  You can get the M/M version or F/F version and use 4-pin headers.  Your choice.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/171445075322

I believe that covers everything.  All in all it is rewarding to do this project.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: Snowdog993 on Mon, 20 April 2015, 23:41:10


If i had a faulty controller I'd rather fabricate a alternative controller for that instead of trying my luck on ebay.

I'm trying figure out here is: is looping on print "wFF" in debug console a software issue or a hardware one.

Thanks for the advise

In your particular case, you may want to get the RJ45 adapter from Orihalcon.  What this IS would be a soarer's adapter that directly plugs into the RJ-45.  You plug one end into that, and the other into the USB port.  Do all your remapping etc.  At least you would know if your terminal controller is good.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281476431381?afsrc=1&rmvSB=true

The language that controller speaks is different than a PC would understand.  I am sure your terminal controller is good.  That's not the problem.  It is the translation language of the controller to your PC.  You might as well speak "wFF" with it all day long.  Your PC does not understand terminal keyboard controllers with a simple wiring.  You have to have a translator.  (Soarer's, Teensy, Orihalcon etc.)
Note: Be sure you don't have the connections mirrored as Fohat mentioned if you have a Teensy.  It might be that you flashed the wrong firmware too.  Be that as it may you still might want to try the other way.

--- OR ---

Just get a keyboard controller that works properly to begin with.  Pull the terminal controller out, put in the 1391401 controller.  That's all I am talking about.

Now may I please stop hitting my head against the wall trying to explain this?  :cool:
I think I spent more time editing and re-editing this message till my eyes have crossed!
I hope I helped.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: dfj on Tue, 21 April 2015, 07:21:25
wFF is printed out by soarer's software, (and also by TMK, perhaps?) in a debug console.

It means the converter wrote FF to the keyboard, repeatedly, with no response.

Presumably either the wires were not hooked up correctly, (easiest error is to accidentally swap clock and data, as mentioned) - or there is some more exciting problem with the controller.
  Feel free to drop by irc some time, we can likely figure out which with a few quick tests, otherwise - the forum. :)

I should be awake in about an hour... making coffee.
 
 
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: Snowdog993 on Tue, 21 April 2015, 09:53:42
wFF is printed out by soarer's software, (and also by TMK, perhaps?) in a debug console.

It means the converter wrote FF to the keyboard, repeatedly, with no response.

Presumably either the wires were not hooked up correctly, (easiest error is to accidentally swap clock and data, as mentioned) - or there is some more exciting problem with the controller.
  Feel free to drop by irc some time, we can likely figure out which with a few quick tests, otherwise - the forum. :)

I should be awake in about an hour... making coffee.
 
 

I went to bed after that post.  Just woke up now.

I realized what you were talking about when I saw that.  Yeah you might have a problem with the firmware or the terminal controller.  I really don't know, and I am not an expert on that.  There are several that know a LOT more than I do about getting the converters to work.  Fohat or Orihalcon would be much more helpful in this respect. 

Sometimes I prefer simple than fussing around with that.  That's part of the reason why I made the post.  It is an alternative.  Plus it makes for an easy option.  (IBM pun)
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: Skechup on Tue, 21 April 2015, 13:42:19
You can also map the keys on the computer if I am correct. But I might be wrong on that one.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: lkong on Tue, 21 April 2015, 22:06:47
(http://i.imgur.com/XJhorAa.png)
Please do a sanity check on my connection before I declare death on this controller.
firmware is the latest master from hasu's github repo.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: dfj on Tue, 21 April 2015, 22:51:32
1) The solder joins at the 5 pin connector (only four of which are used) look shot. should touch those up, likely whatever bent it also broke those joins - but the traces are likely fine, so it's an easy thing to fix and rule out.
  if hasus stuff runs on d5 and d2, then you are good, there... clock is on the lower left pin, and data on the corner pin beside vcc and gnd.
gnd is in the middle between clock and data, and vcc is alone on its row... (how I remember them)

So - I'd reflow those solder joins - and don't leave a controller resting with B3 and B4 possibly touching a grounded bolt. :)

I can't see what is going on with that brown component next to the connector either - might want to double check it isn't shorting to anything, and has good joins as well.


Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: lkong on Wed, 22 April 2015, 10:04:53
1) The solder joins at the 5 pin connector (only four of which are used) look shot. should touch those up, likely whatever bent it also broke those joins - but the traces are likely fine, so it's an easy thing to fix and rule out.
  if hasus stuff runs on d5 and d2, then you are good, there... clock is on the lower left pin, and data on the corner pin beside vcc and gnd.
gnd is in the middle between clock and data, and vcc is alone on its row... (how I remember them)

So - I'd reflow those solder joins - and don't leave a controller resting with B3 and B4 possibly touching a grounded bolt. :)

I can't see what is going on with that brown component next to the connector either - might want to double check it isn't shorting to anything, and has good joins as well.

that brown component is a 1.5k resistor, which i read somewhere acts as a pull up between Vcc and Data. The board doesnt work with or without it.

I reflowed all the joints and checked traces. Same problem.

It's time to buy a new controller. thanks a lot for the help.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: hasu on Wed, 22 April 2015, 16:35:31
I better have pull up resistors on both data and clock lines, I think that short wires works without pull-ups but not sure.
The wiring looks ok to me I don't know why it doesn't work and I don't have this converter hardware to test right now.

Try connecting clock to D0 and data to D1 and build firmware after changing lines in Makefile like this.
This pin usage is compatible to Soarer's so you can use it in case :D

Code: [Select]
#
# PS/2 protocol implementations
# USART is recommended if it is available, others are for reference purpose.
# INT implementation will drop simultaneous key strokes.
#
#PS2_USE_USART = yes # uses hardware USART engine for PS/2 signal receive(recomened)
PS2_USE_INT = yes # uses external interrupt for falling edge of PS/2 clock pin
#PS2_USE_BUSYWAIT = yes # uses primitive reference code
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: fohat.digs on Wed, 22 April 2015, 17:01:36
acts as a pull up between Vcc and Data

I follow Soarer's advice and have pull-ups between both data and clock to power.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: lkong on Thu, 23 April 2015, 00:06:38
I better have pull up resistors on both data and clock lines, I think that short wires works without pull-ups but not sure.
The wiring looks ok to me I don't know why it doesn't work and I don't have this converter hardware to test right now.

Try connecting clock to D0 and data to D1 and build firmware after changing lines in Makefile like this.
This pin usage is compatible to Soarer's so you can use it in case :D

Code: [Select]
#
# PS/2 protocol implementations
# USART is recommended if it is available, others are for reference purpose.
# INT implementation will drop simultaneous key strokes.
#
#PS2_USE_USART = yes # uses hardware USART engine for PS/2 signal receive(recomened)
PS2_USE_INT = yes # uses external interrupt for falling edge of PS/2 clock pin
#PS2_USE_BUSYWAIT = yes # uses primitive reference code


This thing took a unexpected turn here:
The controller board might be ok.
So Ive unplugged teensy from the controller, still getting wFF from hid_listen.
Then I decided to check if the teensy board is faulty.
It's not! I tried to load blinky.hex from teensy's official website, works fine, the hid console output is correct too.

Then try soarer's converter (1.12).
I got this output first time plugged in:
Quote

Waiting for new device:...
Listening:
wEE

remaining: FFFC


Keyboard ID: 0000
Code Set: 1
Mode: PC/XT

R05

Still not registering key strokes though.
 :eek:

Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: Snowdog993 on Fri, 24 April 2015, 21:17:21
I better have pull up resistors on both data and clock lines, I think that short wires works without pull-ups but not sure.
The wiring looks ok to me I don't know why it doesn't work and I don't have this converter hardware to test right now.

Try connecting clock to D0 and data to D1 and build firmware after changing lines in Makefile like this.
This pin usage is compatible to Soarer's so you can use it in case :D

Code: [Select]
#
# PS/2 protocol implementations
# USART is recommended if it is available, others are for reference purpose.
# INT implementation will drop simultaneous key strokes.
#
#PS2_USE_USART = yes # uses hardware USART engine for PS/2 signal receive(recomened)
PS2_USE_INT = yes # uses external interrupt for falling edge of PS/2 clock pin
#PS2_USE_BUSYWAIT = yes # uses primitive reference code


This thing took a unexpected turn here:
The controller board might be ok.
So Ive unplugged teensy from the controller, still getting wFF from hid_listen.
Then I decided to check if the teensy board is faulty.
It's not! I tried to load blinky.hex from teensy's official website, works fine, the hid console output is correct too.

Then try soarer's converter (1.12).
I got this output first time plugged in:
Quote

Waiting for new device:...
Listening:
wEE

remaining: FFFC


Keyboard ID: 0000
Code Set: 1
Mode: PC/XT

R05

Still not registering key strokes though.
 :eek:

It's going mode 1 instead of mode 2?  Maybe that's the problem?  It should be going mode 3 to mode 2.
That could be the issue right there.

acts as a pull up between Vcc and Data

I follow Soarer's advice and have pull-ups between both data and clock to power.

Agreed Fohat.

I'm assuming it's TMK?
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=27272.0
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: Snowdog993 on Sun, 26 April 2015, 23:42:45
It's going mode 1 instead of mode 2?  Maybe that's the problem?  It should be going mode 3 to mode 2.

I was wondering if there was a resolution to that controller issue.  Did you wind up swapping the controller out?
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: lkong on Tue, 28 April 2015, 09:38:01
It's going mode 1 instead of mode 2?  Maybe that's the problem?  It should be going mode 3 to mode 2.

I was wondering if there was a resolution to that controller issue.  Did you wind up swapping the controller out?

I will try to throw in another teensy first, which i used for a point to point wiring keyboard.
Then I'll see if i should replace the controller.

According to the source code wFF is the code for reset and teensy keeps pooping those in console even without connecting to the model m controller sounds super suspicious.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: Snowdog993 on Wed, 06 May 2015, 12:05:31
It's going mode 1 instead of mode 2?  Maybe that's the problem?  It should be going mode 3 to mode 2.

I was wondering if there was a resolution to that controller issue.  Did you wind up swapping the controller out?

I will try to throw in another teensy first, which i used for a point to point wiring keyboard.
Then I'll see if i should replace the controller.

According to the source code wFF is the code for reset and teensy keeps pooping those in console even without connecting to the model m controller sounds super suspicious.

For some odd reason, I am still wondering if you ever got that keyboard working!
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: lkong on Wed, 05 August 2015, 23:38:27
It's going mode 1 instead of mode 2?  Maybe that's the problem?  It should be going mode 3 to mode 2.

I was wondering if there was a resolution to that controller issue.  Did you wind up swapping the controller out?

I will try to throw in another teensy first, which i used for a point to point wiring keyboard.
Then I'll see if i should replace the controller.

According to the source code wFF is the code for reset and teensy keeps pooping those in console even without connecting to the model m controller sounds super suspicious.

For some odd reason, I am still wondering if you ever got that keyboard working!
here's the updates.
I purchased universal model M keyboard converter from here: http://phosphorglow.net/store/products/universal-model-m-usb-controller/
Lots of keys are still not registering, although some are functional.
I pulled out membrane and traced it.
Turns out the "row" membrane is faulty: http://i.imgur.com/F82k63r.jpg
There's a fold close to the connector, thus the connection is really bad (connected in certain angle).
I'm in this too deep now to bail out.
I've contacted unicomp asking for replacement part number.
I'll report back on that.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: lkong on Sat, 08 August 2015, 20:50:41
Instead of waiting for Unicomp I managed to patch the trace by myself.
I used copper foil tape (although amazon item description said adhesives are conductive it's not) and conductive paint.
http://imgur.com/a/tbUD4#NbGvVbu
http://imgur.com/a/tbUD4#nQFq1pW
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: Snowdog993 on Sat, 08 August 2015, 21:38:16
So is everything all good now?  Sounds to me you got it all sorted out.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: lkong on Sat, 08 August 2015, 22:02:53
So is everything all good now?  Sounds to me you got it all sorted out.
Everything is pretty much working now.
'X' is a little hard to register, but im too lazy to unscrew 20 bolts to fix it tonight.
It's such a long journey, and i'm glad i got to the end of it.
Title: Re: What Can I Do With a Terminal Model M?
Post by: paicrai on Wed, 12 August 2015, 06:45:28
adapter