Truly Ergonomic Communication Sept 27, 2011

[Gerk]

Tooling issues mean more delays, but now comes in Cherry Red flavor too.

Manufacturing phase under pressure
 
We had begun manufacturing the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard and became aware that one of the tooling components did not perform as it should have under pressure, causing some unusual waves in one of the parts.
 
As we have previously mentioned, quality is our utmost priority. Hence, we are currently fixing this issue, and it is expected to be solved within days. We will continue manufacturing your Truly Ergonomic Keyboard as soon as this is solved.
 
 
Soft Linear (MX Red) keyswitches
 
We are manufacturing a small number of keyboards with Soft Linear (Cherry MX Red) keyswitches. These soft linear keyswitches are only recommended for people who will primarily use their keyboard to play computer games, as these keyswitches do not provide tactile feedback and do not provide sound feedback.
 
If you do not play computer games or rarely play computer games, we recommend that you keep the keyswitches you pre-ordered, or consider changing your order to one incorporating either Silent (MX Brown) keyswitches or Light-click-sound (MX Blue) keyswitches.

And then the usual "if you want to change your order" blurb.

[slueth]

Never going to come out lol.  Maybe 2012 :X

[shrap]

Started accepting preorders: October 2010
First promised delivery date: December 2010 (two months for production)

Elapsed time: nine months (over four times original time)

[calavera]

Damn, I was wondering what's up with this keyboard. Looks like you guys will get it before this year ends though. lol

[jpc]

Insert link to the Clinton-era Kinesis Contoured press release here.

Just ... get ... a ... Kinesis.

The board you want exists already. It's in stock today, from a company that has been around for 20 years. They will be around to honor your warranty. They have built 100,000 ergonomic boards. They have worked out the kinks. Their boards are available in clean used condition at affordable prices. And so on...

[cbf123]

I tried a kinesis in the store.  Sat in front of it for most of an hour trying to get used to it.  I'm a software guy, and for coding work the placement of the square brackets and backtick was just weird.  Also, my shoulders are wider apart than the key wells, so my arms weren't quite properly aligned.  It's quite thick, and the function keys felt cheap.

Given the chance to get a TEK for a third the price, I thought I'd give it a try.

[Lanx]

it took me 2 complete days to get used to a kinesis, this meant shelving my own keyboard v1 mod and not running to it when i couldn't use the kinesis properly. You know i thought programmers would like the kinesis more cuz (,[,{ are all activated by the ring finger and ),],} are all activated by the pinky finger, makes more fluidic sense imo, (but i don't program so i rarely uses bracket, squirly bracket). sounds like you're a tall guy? if the kinesis wasn't wide enough for you (or just broad shouldered).

the concave kinesis keywells really are awesome, my v2 mod only has a matrix non concave layout and i already miss the kinesis concave.

[Gerk]

Insert link to the Clinton-era Kinesis Contoured press release here.

Just ... get ... a ... Kinesis.

The board you want exists already. It's in stock today, from a company that has been around for 20 years. They will be around to honor your warranty. They have built 100,000 ergonomic boards. They have worked out the kinks. Their boards are available in clean used condition at affordable prices. And so on...

I already have a kinesis but also want a TE (if they ever ship).

I've been slowly getting used to the Kinesis but on thing as a coder that really gets to me (and it's not the placement of the square and curly braces) -- it's the arrows being split up.  I've tried a few remappings so far but still having a really hard time with not having a traditional set of arrow keys.

[sordna]

Interesting. Actually I think the Kinesis arrows are brilliant... it's the only keyboard you can arrow around without moving your hands away from their position. I only had trouble with up/down but being used to vi where J is down and K is up, I swapped the up/down arrows to down/up so they match the "index finger goes down" "middle finger goes up" you do with vi. With this minor change I never get confused, I can even play games with these arrows better, because left/right & up/down are independent.

[shrap]

In the absence of having actual TE keyboards, every TE thread becomes a Kinesis thread.

[Lanx]

well it's cuz ppl actually have a real working kinesis in their hands, not to mention TE shamelessly lying and saying that, "because they say so" (cuz there is no other evidence) the TE is ergonomically better than a kinesis.

i'm actually hating the arrow arrangement of the kinesis, i think it's pretty cruddy, (i've even reprogrammed them all to the right side) but i think it's cuz i just like inverted "T". (which is something i intend to fix on my v3 mod, i don't just complain for fun!)

[Gerk]

I'm going to have to spend some time reading the manual with my Kinesis.  I have an idea that might work out for me ... my problem is trying to reprogram my brain to have the arrows split up onto different hands.  Maybe it will come to me with more time on the board but I can't use it as my every day right now for coding and I don't use arrow keys all that much when I'm not coding.

Kinesis peeps:  can I use a footswitch to trigger a different "layer" of the keys?  If so then I could program arrow keys on foot switch+ijkl or something similar and I would probably be much happier.

[sordna]

Kinesis peeps:  can I use a footswitch to trigger a different "layer" of the keys?  If so then I could program arrow keys on foot switch+ijkl or something similar and I would probably be much happier.

Yup, just program the numpad layer: Push the Keypad button to enter the 2nd layer, then do pgm+F12 to enter remap mode, then press: up, i, left, j, down, k, right, l, pgm+F12 to exit remap mode.
You can toggle the numpad layer with the keypad button, or if you add a footswitch, it will momentarily take you to the 2nd layer while the footswitch is held down.

[Input Nirvana]

In the absence of having actual TE keyboards, every TE thread becomes a Kinesis thread.

Yea, I noticed that. I find it amusing since TE claims their vapor-ghost-board to be better than a Kinesis, which by merely looking at it, there is absolutely no indication of that what so ever.

It's interesting how different people view the arrow key placement as either excellent or horrible, not much middle ground. Since they are re-mappable, I don't see it as an issue unless someone wants the "T" configuration.

TE: keyboard or no keyboard, it's beyond that at this point. TE is a ****-hole company of 1.5 people that needs a good ass-kicking. In the future, let the boys that know how to design/engineer/research/finance/manage/produce/market/service keyboards bring a product to market. If this clown pulls this off and can keep the ball rolling, I'll have a modified Kinesis clone made in Taiwan within 8 months. I'm curious to see how this vapor-board will do. The idea has merits, especially if it can be split, and it's not so radical that people are intimidated by it.

[MarkWilliamson]

Interesting. Actually I think the Kinesis arrows are brilliant... it's the only keyboard you can arrow around without moving your hands away from their position. I only had trouble with up/down but being used to vi where J is down and K is up, I swapped the up/down arrows to down/up so they match the "index finger goes down" "middle finger goes up" you do with vi. With this minor change I never get confused, I can even play games with these arrows better, because left/right & up/down are independent.

 
I know I'm being pedantic but there are a couple of other boards you can arrow around without moving the hands to another position: the Maltron (quite like the Kinesis but predates it by quite some time) and therefore its clone the Ergomatic place the arrow keys in the two thumb clusters so that your hands can remain over their keys when using the arrows.  That said, for comfort I do shift my hands very slightly when I'm using the arrows but it's not a completely different position.

The HHKB maps the arrow keys onto a layer, I believe, so you can basically operate them by just layer switching.

I guess there are probably some other designs out there that I'm not aware of...

I've never actually used a Kinesis but they look nice.  I like my Maltron but it's a bit old and grungey since I bought it second hand - has an AT-style 5-pin DIN connector.  The TE keyboard greatly appealed to me as it seemed like a good middle-of-road and cheaper option, maybe for my desk at work.  I hope they get the production kinks out and this keyboard into production.  Looks like a worthwhile board, although like others here I find their claims to be ergonomically superior to Kinesis / Maltron / Datahand a bit far-fetched.

[Gerk]

Yup, just program the numpad layer: Push the Keypad button to enter the 2nd layer, then do pgm+F12 to enter remap mode, then press: up, i, left, j, down, k, right, l, pgm+F12 to exit remap mode.
You can toggle the numpad layer with the keypad button, or if you add a footswitch, it will momentarily take you to the 2nd layer while the footswitch is held down.

Thanks sordna, I'll have to give that a shot (but first I'll have to build an adapter to attach a footswitch LOL).  Anyone know the pinouts?  I have lots of footswitches around here so I imaging Ill be able to hobble together something to test with at the very least.  I guess it's only 4 wires in the connector and if it supports 3 footswitches it's not hard to guess.  Another project for my todo list LOL.

[sordna]

Code: [Select]

RJ11 Phone Old New
2 black switch2 switch2
3 red switch1 switch1
4 green - common
5 yellow common switch3

Here is the footswitch pinout. Old refers to the very old keyboards with the detachable cables (before the Essential/Classic). Taken from here:
http://www.kw.igs.net/~schoedel/kinesis/index.html

[Gerk]

Code: [Select]

RJ11 Phone Old New
2 black switch2 switch2
3 red switch1 switch1
4 green - common
5 yellow common switch3

Here is the footswitch pinout. Old refers to the very old keyboards with the detachable cables (before the Essential/Classic). Taken from here:
http://www.kw.igs.net/~schoedel/kinesis/index.html

Awesome, that's perfect, thanks.

[M4R5]

I find it a little irritating that there are so many people on Geekhack pushing the Kinesis when that design was stolen from Lilly Malt's company, Maltron. In my opinion Kinesis are a bad company.

But I was actually posting to add my two cents on the TE fiasco. That being that no self-respecting company would inform its whole customer base of a delay that is so short, unless they were b*llsh*tt*ng.

[sordna]

I find it a little irritating that there are so many people on Geekhack pushing the Kinesis when that design was stolen from Lilly Malt's company, Maltron. In my opinion Kinesis are a bad company.

So, Apple got the mouse / GUI from Xerox, was that a bad thing? No it was a wonderful thing, because that technology reached the masses. Similar thing happened with the Maltron idea, I think Kinesis made it way more accessible to the masses with a more affordable keyboard, better distribution, lighter cherry switches, and added great features, like 2 layers and the awesome remapping/programmability. Maltron still only has the stiff cherry black switches, and no user programmability.

So, this is wonderful for the end user, why are you calling Kinesis a bad company? The only harm done, if any, was to Maltron sales. But the ergonomic user community has benefited greatly.

[Lanx]

lol if anything kinesis could stand to make their keyboards more ergonomic, the maltron standard is outdated imo. (and from some more vocal kinesis users, are in agreement)

[sordna]

lol if anything kinesis could stand to make their keyboards more ergonomic, the maltron standard is outdated imo. (and from some more vocal kinesis users, are in agreement)

Haha, yes, I would love a truly split Kinesis (separately moving halves) even if it means somebody copies Kinesis to do it :-)

The Ergo Dox looks very nice to me actually!

[Lanx]

I would miss the keywells, maybe I'm newer to them.

[Gerk]

I'm honestly not finding the Kinesis all that ergonomic.  Yes they are different and yes they are nicely laid out, but having to hold my hands and fingers at the angle required of them to touch type properly is not ergonomic to me.  It may be different for others, but ergonomic is a very personal thing.  I've had more hand pain while trying to use the Kinesis than I did with flat boards to date.

[sordna]

I'm honestly not finding the Kinesis all that ergonomic.  Yes they are different and yes they are nicely laid out, but having to hold my hands and fingers at the angle required of them to touch type properly is not ergonomic to me.  It may be different for others, but ergonomic is a very personal thing.  I've had more hand pain while trying to use the Kinesis than I did with flat boards to date.

Strange. Anyway, with any fixed-configuration keyboard you have to have your hands at *some angle*. Even with traditional/flat keyboards. Anyway, I think most of us agree that truly ergonomic keyboards ultimately need to come in completely separate, movable halves. The only such specimen that has merit so far, is the uber-expensive uTron.

[Lanx]

well the only reason for these keyboards to come "separate, movable" is to adjust to the user, cuz as we all know we're all of different body types/builders and shoulder widths. And yes i do agree that the angle or the non angle? of the kinesis is an issue, my shoulders aren't that broad to contort to that way.

[Gerk]

Strange. Anyway, with any fixed-configuration keyboard you have to have your hands at *some angle*. Even with traditional/flat keyboards. Anyway, I think most of us agree that truly ergonomic keyboards ultimately need to come in completely separate, movable halves. The only such specimen that has merit so far, is the uber-expensive uTron.

It's the wrist angle for the Kinesis that I'm having the hardest time with, as in how much I have to tilt my wrists to get the bottom rows of keys.  I'm not too bad on the alpha-numeric keys, but the coding keys kill me.  Have to put my wrists in weird positions to get those keys, I may adjust over time though, hard to say.  I'm still hoping that TE delivers at some point, but not holding my breath.

[sordna]

It's the wrist angle for the Kinesis that I'm having the hardest time with, as in how much I have to tilt my wrists to get the bottom rows of keys.  I'm not too bad on the alpha-numeric keys, but the coding keys kill me.  Have to put my wrists in weird positions to get those keys, I may adjust over time though, hard to say.

Are you by any chance anchoring your wrists to the palmrests? Only use the palmrest area when not typing. When you type, lift your palms a bit, and move your entire arm instead of bending your wrist when you have to reach for keys like the square brackets, or the alt keys. Give it a try, moving your arm a tiny bit will save you from bending your wrists to reach keys that are not near the home row.

[Gerk]

Sometimes I rest my wrists, but most times I try not to -- even with my wrists not rested I have a hard time with that bottom row of keys and when I move my arm and hand then I end up having a hard time getting back to the home row ... that will probably come with time using this board I suppose, but for now I can't really spend my time on it trying to code as I won't make any $$ -- still waaaaay too slow on it for that sort of stuff :/  On a good day I'm not too bad with the standard alpha-numeric stuff though... my wrists are probably just not used to the position, but it's a drastically different type of position I have to use on it than I do with a flat or ergo styled split board and it's messing with me.  Also I probably type all those brackets, single and double quotes, ? / 10x more than any single alpha-numeric keys when coding and not having them in places where I'm used to really puts a kink into things for me.    Right now I'm using the Kinesis on the machine I do most of my correspondence on (laptop with extra monitor) but not on my main workstation, but it gets pushed aside about 50% of the time in favor of a Leopold TKL I have hooked up too.

[jpc]

@ Gerk
Does your Kinesis have the foam palm rests? Those make it a bit easier to move your hands.

How high is your keyboard? Most desks are too high. I stand about 5'9", my ideal typing surface height is about 25". Most desks are closer to 30". That's a recipe for wrist pain on any keyboard.

[Gerk]

I don't have the foam wrist rests, I bought it used and it didn't come with them.  My desks (I switch between a couple) are both different heights, but my chairs have height adjust so I set them accordingly.  My workstation desk is actually pretty high up, but I have my chair set high up too.

[Tracer]

So no update from TE? It's nearing the end of Oct. I really want this board to be real and good so I can order a couple.

[rantenki]

So no update from TE? It's nearing the end of Oct. I really want this board to be real and good so I can order a couple.

Then their eventual update will disappoint you.

[Gerk]

Nope no word from them yet ... they did say that they would start taking normal orders in late Oct so either they will be ready by the end of the month or we'll get more excuses.  Time will tell if these things are any good (that is if they ever get them out the door).

[Input Nirvana]

I find it a little irritating that there are so many people on Geekhack pushing the Kinesis when that design was stolen from Lilly Malt's company, Maltron. In my opinion Kinesis are a bad company.

But I was actually posting to add my two cents on the TE fiasco. That being that no self-respecting company would inform its whole customer base of a delay that is so short, unless they were b*llsh*tt*ng.

Does anyone really know that the design is 'stolen'? I'm curious, I don't know the facts. Just because it shares some similarities doesn't make it a 'copy'. Regardless, Kinesis Contoured is obviously superior in most/all aspects.

[Input Nirvana]

@ Gerk
Does your Kinesis have the foam palm rests? Those make it a bit easier to move your hands.

How high is your keyboard? Most desks are too high. I stand about 5'9", my ideal typing surface height is about 25". Most desks are closer to 30". That's a recipe for wrist pain on any keyboard.

Not to pick a fight, but I use both, with and without pads, and do not notice any difference in positioning other than my hands 'rest' about an 1/8" higher. Not a huge fan of the pads for cleanliness reasons, but they aren't bad either (just kinda cheesy and cheap).

FYI: I was looking on McMaster-Carr for some other/better pad options...memory foam, neoprene, etc. I thing we can do better than what is supplied with the boards. Anyone with input on this?

I completely agree the height is very critical!!!...experiment with that ASAP.

And, I can tell you, splitting the Kinesis into 2 halves is the cats meow, ultimate positioning solves almost every wrist-forearm-hand issue and only leaves possible finger-thumb joint concerns. Hence the split Kinesis mod: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8110&redirect=no

Using this on each chair arm with a split keyboard (Kinesis Freestyle, or any keyboard that is split into two halves, or splitting a Kinesis Contoured) is what makes the magic. There is no substitute: [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 29645[/ATTACH]

The only thing I would do to improve, is replace the vinyl covered foam with a very firm armrest gel or something else that is top quality. I've encountered the occasional great armrest here and there.

[Tracer]

If they don't ship in Oct. It will be officially over one year since I made my original pre-order. (I've since cancelled and gotten my refund).