Author Topic: TKL and Quickfire TK form factor (Read 4981 times)

Merranza · « **on:** Wed, 17 January 2018, 20:35:48 »

I was wondering today how come there are so few keyboards adopting Coolermaster's Quickfire TK form factor.

I understand many keyboard enthusiasts want a TKL keyboard mainly based on the primary argument that the numpad on a full keyboard takes a lot of width for a section of the keyboard that is rarely used. In other words, takes extra space and uselessly widens your mouse position. At the same time, many wish they could keep the numpad cluster but hate the extra space it takes.

To me, Coolermaster and such came with the perfect solution with their Quickfire TK meaning you get both benefits by keeping your numpad cluster at the size of a TKL.

I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on this.

Techno Trousers · « **Reply #1 on:** Wed, 17 January 2018, 21:05:40 »

Since circa 1987 I have been using the nav cluster as established by the IBM model M keyboards. So I have so much muscle memory built up that I don't want to have extra keys in there that might interfere with it. Just today, in fact, I had someone in my office and was flying in my text editor, and she was amazed that I could do everything without even looking down.

So I'm all about the TKL.

rich1051414 · « **Reply #2 on:** Wed, 17 January 2018, 21:22:32 »

I'm fine with TK layouts as long as the nav cluster is EXACTLY in the same spot superimposed on the numpad. I agree with the above comment, the nav cluster is something that exists exactly as is on different layouts for so long, I have trouble excusing doing away with it, unless it is simply the lack of real estate, like on ultra compact keyboards. Even still, a T nav is required.

Kavik · « **Reply #3 on:** Wed, 17 January 2018, 21:35:57 »

The Quikfire TK only shifts the nav cluster down one row, so it's really not much of an adjustment other than learning to hit numlock when you need to enter numbers. In my opinion, it's the perfect compromise.

I think it's weird that fullsize layouts have a numlock key at all when all those keys are duplicated in a better layout immediately to the left. At the same time, since they do have a numlock key, it seems like a lot of wasted space to have those duplicate keys.

The best part of the TK over TKL is the numpad enter key. I use it all the time with my mouse hand: click in field, hit numpad enter. That's the most annoying thing lacking in a TKL for me. But I also really like the numpad. So I'd really like to see the layout in more keyboards myself.

Merranza · « **Reply #4 on:** Wed, 17 January 2018, 21:41:10 »

Quote from: Kavik on Wed, 17 January 2018, 21:35:57

The Quikfire TK only shifts the nav cluster down one row, so it's really not much of an adjustment other than learning to hit numlock when you need to enter numbers. In my opinion, it's the perfect compromise.

I think it's weird that fullsize layouts have a numlock key at all when all those keys are duplicated in a better layout immediately to the left. At the same time, since they do have a numlock key, it seems like a lot of wasted space to have those duplicate keys.

The best part of the TK over TKL is the numpad enter key. I use it all the time with my mouse hand: click in field, hit numpad enter. That's the most annoying thing lacking in a TKL for me. But I also really like the numpad. So I'd really like to see the layout in more keyboards myself.

I agree 100% with what you said.

I own a TK that I use at work and I think I like it more than my full size at home.

I'm currently having a strong look at the Glorious modular gaming keyboard and want to buy it to have the possibility to try many different switches without having to buy a new keyboard everytime but I simply can't decide if I'll buy a new full size or a TKL. Wish Glorious PC made a TK clone (with a volume wheel... not enough keyboard have this). That would be the perfect keyboard for me.

Merranza · « **Reply #5 on:** Wed, 17 January 2018, 21:45:25 »

UsualSuspectXXX · « **Reply #6 on:** Thu, 18 January 2018, 07:15:38 »

There's been a couple 78 key boards.

UK78

TK78, which I have but still need to fix the PCB to make it usable.

Also, I use a TX-1800 at work, high is a similar layout (having the numpad directly to the right of the 60% section). There are lots of 1800 layouts out there.

mike-y · « **Reply #7 on:** Thu, 18 January 2018, 09:33:59 »

I use the numpad a lot at my job, as I am constantly putting together estimates and entering a lot of dollar values into spreadsheets. My only gripe with the Quickfire TK, was that you have to toggle numlock to use the arrows. Excel is one of my most used programs, and I use the arrows to move around cells between entering number data. If the Quickfire TK had the arrows built into the lower right, so you didn't have to hit numlock, I'd have one.

I actually DID have one on order last year, but cancelled it when I realized I'd have to hit numlock a few hundred times a day to toggle between arrows and the numpad.

currently, I use a 96 key layout, which as everything I need without having to use a toggle or Fn key.

Kevadu · « **Reply #8 on:** Thu, 18 January 2018, 14:53:38 »

As a data scientist/software engineer the idea that in this day and age people are still entering number into spreadsheets by hand kind of baffles me. Why isn't this stuff all automated?

mike-y · « **Reply #9 on:** Thu, 18 January 2018, 15:28:34 »

Quote from: Kevadu on Thu, 18 January 2018, 14:53:38

As a data scientist/software engineer the idea that in this day and age people are still entering number into spreadsheets by hand kind of baffles me. Why isn't this stuff all automated?

Probably because I'm almost always dealing with humans and not machines I'm in the construction industry, and I'm always "finding the lowest bidder", and putting together cost estimates for work based on incomplete designs that seem to change every week. We may get pricing from half a dozen different vendors that need to be sifted through and entered into our estimating spreadsheet. Most quotes are PDF's, but some also typed out emails, etc. I don't know how you'd automate getting the information from my email inbox (or sometimes a voicemail) onto a consolidated estimating form, while at the same time being able to compare quotes for completeness, so you don't sign up a guy who missed half the scope.

Much of the tech in the construction world is probably a decade behind more advanced industries, like scientific research. There are a few guys out there that still draw plans with pencil and paper! (tho that is pretty rare now)

we do have many of our internal cost reports exported directly from the accounting database to an excel spreadsheet, but then we still have to manually review and enter data based on budget projections and actual cost overuns/underuns. We have giant spreadsheets here, some track millions of dollars in change orders and pricing, others are loaded up with dozens of formulas and tabs that calculate labor hours with all kinds of user-set variables.

Now that I think about it, it blows my mind how much we rely on these spreadsheets. My world (mostly) revolves around Excel haha.

Kavik · « **Reply #10 on:** Thu, 18 January 2018, 16:58:15 »

Quote from: mike-y on Thu, 18 January 2018, 09:33:59

I use the numpad a lot at my job, as I am constantly putting together estimates and entering a lot of dollar values into spreadsheets. My only gripe with the Quickfire TK, was that you have to toggle numlock to use the arrows. Excel is one of my most used programs, and I use the arrows to move around cells between entering number data. If the Quickfire TK had the arrows built into the lower right, so you didn't have to hit numlock, I'd have one.

I actually DID have one on order last year, but cancelled it when I realized I'd have to hit numlock a few hundred times a day to toggle between arrows and the numpad.

currently, I use a 96 key layout, which as everything I need without having to use a toggle or Fn key.
(Attachment Link)

Do you have any issues with the lack of a gap between the alphas and the numpad? I suppose it's something you'd get used to, but the keys look cramped to me.

Now that you mention it, I can see how not having separate arrows would be annoying (I've noticed it myself when using Excel, but I hardly ever use Excel); however, I'd argue that pressing numlock is similar in time/effort to moving the hand to the separate arrow keys and is just a different movement to learn. That said, I understand that people have a preferred way of doing things, and, if you have a tool that works for you, then it's not a problem. What keyboard is that btw?

rich1051414 · « **Reply #11 on:** Thu, 18 January 2018, 23:23:43 »

Well, that shifted arrow keys is common to 75% layouts, and it does take getting used to. It took me a long time to not hit the wrong key when not looking. I would also commonly lose track and move too far left or right, which can be annoying. It would be alleviated by putting a homing bump on the up arrow, but no one has done that.

UsualSuspectXXX · « **Reply #12 on:** Fri, 19 January 2018, 11:24:00 »

Here's a 96 key that just went live.

https://www.reddit.com/r/mechmarket/comments/7rjrnd/vendor_melody96_gb_from_ymdk_is_now_live/?sort=new

Polymer · « **Reply #13 on:** Fri, 19 January 2018, 14:12:07 »

Quote from: Merranza on Wed, 17 January 2018, 20:35:48

I was wondering today how come there are so few keyboards adopting Coolermaster's Quickfire TK form factor.

I understand many keyboard enthusiasts want a TKL keyboard mainly based on the primary argument that the numpad on a full keyboard takes a lot of width for a section of the keyboard that is rarely used. In other words, takes extra space and uselessly widens your mouse position. At the same time, many wish they could keep the numpad cluster but hate the extra space it takes.

To me, Coolermaster and such came with the perfect solution with their Quickfire TK meaning you get both benefits by keeping your numpad cluster at the size of a TKL.

I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on this.

Because it reality, it isn't as good as you think. Do you really want to hit the extra key to toggle it between numberpad and arrow keys? I
Or if you want access to any of the other keys as well..it just makes it quite inconvenient...

And if you consider the other layouts that end up being about the same size but just superior...you just start losing the reason to have it.

It just ends up being one of those things that looks like a good idea..but it ends up being cumbersome in the end with better alternatives...That's why the TK layout has never taken off..

Kavik · « **Reply #14 on:** Fri, 19 January 2018, 16:31:39 »

Quote from: Polymer on Fri, 19 January 2018, 14:12:07

Quote from: Merranza on Wed, 17 January 2018, 20:35:48
I was wondering today how come there are so few keyboards adopting Coolermaster's Quickfire TK form factor.

I understand many keyboard enthusiasts want a TKL keyboard mainly based on the primary argument that the numpad on a full keyboard takes a lot of width for a section of the keyboard that is rarely used. In other words, takes extra space and uselessly widens your mouse position. At the same time, many wish they could keep the numpad cluster but hate the extra space it takes.

To me, Coolermaster and such came with the perfect solution with their Quickfire TK meaning you get both benefits by keeping your numpad cluster at the size of a TKL.

I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on this.

Because it reality, it isn't as good as you think. Do you really want to hit the extra key to toggle it between numberpad and arrow keys? I
Or if you want access to any of the other keys as well..it just makes it quite inconvenient...

And if you consider the other layouts that end up being about the same size but just superior...you just start losing the reason to have it.

It just ends up being one of those things that looks like a good idea..but it ends up being cumbersome in the end with better alternatives...That's why the TK layout has never taken off..

A lot of people here don't seem to have a problem pushing an fn key to access various keys, so numlock shouldn't be much of an adjustment. I did like fullsize 101/104 key layouts the most until I got used to using something a bit smaller. Now it's hard to give up that right hand space unless I'm using a trackball. I think especially as a readily available consumer gaming keyboard, the TK is a good way to retain the numpad.

Polymer · « **Reply #15 on:** Fri, 19 January 2018, 17:26:21 »

Quote from: Kavik on Fri, 19 January 2018, 16:31:39

Quote from: Polymer on Fri, 19 January 2018, 14:12:07
Quote from: Merranza on Wed, 17 January 2018, 20:35:48
I was wondering today how come there are so few keyboards adopting Coolermaster's Quickfire TK form factor.

I understand many keyboard enthusiasts want a TKL keyboard mainly based on the primary argument that the numpad on a full keyboard takes a lot of width for a section of the keyboard that is rarely used. In other words, takes extra space and uselessly widens your mouse position. At the same time, many wish they could keep the numpad cluster but hate the extra space it takes.

To me, Coolermaster and such came with the perfect solution with their Quickfire TK meaning you get both benefits by keeping your numpad cluster at the size of a TKL.

I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on this.

Because it reality, it isn't as good as you think. Do you really want to hit the extra key to toggle it between numberpad and arrow keys? I
Or if you want access to any of the other keys as well..it just makes it quite inconvenient...

And if you consider the other layouts that end up being about the same size but just superior...you just start losing the reason to have it.

It just ends up being one of those things that looks like a good idea..but it ends up being cumbersome in the end with better alternatives...That's why the TK layout has never taken off..

A lot of people here don't seem to have a problem pushing an fn key to access various keys, so numlock shouldn't be much of an adjustment. I did like fullsize 101/104 key layouts the most until I got used to using something a bit smaller. Now it's hard to give up that right hand space unless I'm using a trackball. I think especially as a readily available consumer gaming keyboard, the TK is a good way to retain the numpad.

Again, you'd think so..but have you tried this in practice? It isn't..

It might not be that bad if you could use an FN key on the left hand side and hold it down for arrow keys..but you have to use the numberlock thingy...it just doesn't work out as well..

The proof is in the pudding..is this layout popular? No it isn't...because at the end of the day, while it looks like it'll be good, it isn't good..it is good in that it gives you options in a smallish form factor..but it isn't in that if you actually want to use it the way you use a numberpad or arrow keys, it is too slow..and then you look at some of the other form factors, all of which don't have this problem, and you just have no reason to really buy this..

Kavik · « **Reply #16 on:** Fri, 19 January 2018, 20:13:13 »

Quote from: Polymer on Fri, 19 January 2018, 17:26:21

Quote from: Kavik on Fri, 19 January 2018, 16:31:39
Quote from: Polymer on Fri, 19 January 2018, 14:12:07
Quote from: Merranza on Wed, 17 January 2018, 20:35:48
I was wondering today how come there are so few keyboards adopting Coolermaster's Quickfire TK form factor.

I understand many keyboard enthusiasts want a TKL keyboard mainly based on the primary argument that the numpad on a full keyboard takes a lot of width for a section of the keyboard that is rarely used. In other words, takes extra space and uselessly widens your mouse position. At the same time, many wish they could keep the numpad cluster but hate the extra space it takes.

To me, Coolermaster and such came with the perfect solution with their Quickfire TK meaning you get both benefits by keeping your numpad cluster at the size of a TKL.

I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on this.

Because it reality, it isn't as good as you think. Do you really want to hit the extra key to toggle it between numberpad and arrow keys? I
Or if you want access to any of the other keys as well..it just makes it quite inconvenient...

And if you consider the other layouts that end up being about the same size but just superior...you just start losing the reason to have it.

It just ends up being one of those things that looks like a good idea..but it ends up being cumbersome in the end with better alternatives...That's why the TK layout has never taken off..

A lot of people here don't seem to have a problem pushing an fn key to access various keys, so numlock shouldn't be much of an adjustment. I did like fullsize 101/104 key layouts the most until I got used to using something a bit smaller. Now it's hard to give up that right hand space unless I'm using a trackball. I think especially as a readily available consumer gaming keyboard, the TK is a good way to retain the numpad.

Again, you'd think so..but have you tried this in practice? It isn't..

It might not be that bad if you could use an FN key on the left hand side and hold it down for arrow keys..but you have to use the numberlock thingy...it just doesn't work out as well..

The proof is in the pudding..is this layout popular? No it isn't...because at the end of the day, while it looks like it'll be good, it isn't good..it is good in that it gives you options in a smallish form factor..but it isn't in that if you actually want to use it the way you use a numberpad or arrow keys, it is too slow..and then you look at some of the other form factors, all of which don't have this problem, and you just have no reason to really buy this..

Yes, I own one. It's my main keyboard at home. I've used it at work also, but I mainly don't like it for work because it has MX Reds, which I hate for typing. There was an adjustment period when I first got it, but it works fine for me now. Again, I don't use Excel, so I don't switch between the two functions often. Others' use cases may cause more of an annoyance. I always leave it with numlock off because I usually need navigation and just switch for numbers. As far as why it's not popular, you're probably right. It also doesn't look as cool as some other layouts, and that's one of the main reason weirdos like us buy so many keyboards. But I think OP's point is why go for a TKL over a TK when it's basically the same thing without the option to use a numpad.

Polymer · « **Reply #17 on:** Sat, 20 January 2018, 05:49:52 »

Nothing to do with how cool it looks..it is just functionality...

You can get a numberpad but with the loss of arrow keys...If you rarely need a numberpad why get it? And if you do need one here and there, you can just as easily get a dedicated one...

Or as I said, any number of other layouts...

Sure, you can use it as a slightly larger TKL...and never use the numberpad but what was the point then?

The TK is a crutch for people who can't imagine not using the numberpad only to realize they don't really need it...and they've bought a mehish keyboard as that crutch..

rich1051414 · « **Reply #18 on:** Sat, 20 January 2018, 12:18:01 »

I think of it like this. People who don't use a numpad at all will gravitate towards TKL, because they don't need that numpad at all. Many of those who do use the numpad are perfectly happy with a full sized keyboard. This leaves only a small niche of people who want a numpad and think full sized is too big at the same time, and cooler master pretty much already has that market locked down.

Grossmeister · « **Reply #19 on:** Sat, 20 January 2018, 14:48:24 »

Idea seems good, but having keys around UP key seems wrong. Although, I think Leopold FC980M (98 keys) layout might be nice.

mike-y · « **Reply #20 on:** Sat, 20 January 2018, 16:45:44 »

Quote from: Kavik on Fri, 19 January 2018, 16:31:39

A lot of people here don't seem to have a problem pushing an fn key to access various keys, so numlock shouldn't be much of an adjustment.

In my case it would be a problem. I'd have to hit numlock two times whenever I wanted to use the arrows - once to get to the arrow layer, and once again to get back to numpad. With a 96 key layout, the keyboard is the same size (if not a bit smaller) than the TK, and you don't need to hit numlock to use the arrows while you are using the numpad.

And you don't move your hand on a 96 key layout to use the arrows while using the numpad. My right thumb can easily reach all of the arrows while my middle finger is resting on the "5" key of the numpad. entering numbers and using arrows simultaneously is much better than having to use a toggle.

davkol · « **Reply #21 on:** Sat, 20 January 2018, 16:52:05 »

Quote from: Polymer on Fri, 19 January 2018, 17:26:21

The proof is in the pudding..is this layout popular? No it isn't...because at the end of the day, while it looks like it'll be good, it isn't good..it is good in that it gives you options in a smallish form factor..but it isn't in that if you actually want to use it the way you use a numberpad or arrow keys, it is too slow..and then you look at some of the other form factors, all of which don't have this problem, and you just have no reason to really buy this..

Quote from: Techno Trousers on Wed, 17 January 2018, 21:05:40

Since circa 1987 I have been using the nav cluster as established by the IBM model M keyboards. So I have so much muscle memory built up that I don't want to have extra keys in there that might interfere with it.

I'm quoting specifically these two comments on purpose.

Before IBM Model M, the layout with tenkey right next to the main section was the de facto standard. See mainly PC XT. (If the keyboard had a tenkey at all.) And when Model M came out with the new layout, many people complained about the new clusters. IBM was in a position to push the layout anyway, and now that's the standard, even de iure. Although, larger widescreen laptops cram a tenkey into limited space, so that the result is closer to rack keyboards such as G80-1800.

Quote from: Merranza on Wed, 17 January 2018, 20:35:48

the perfect solution

The perfect solution, if you ask me, well, that would be the embedded tenkey in Kinesis Advantage or maaaybe TypeMatrix.

Findecanor · « **Reply #22 on:** Sat, 20 January 2018, 17:06:33 »

I prefer TKL but I have used G80-1800 also and I find that I like to have the spaces around the arrow keys to make them easier to find.

Otherwise, I think that the numeric keypad belongs on the left side of the alphanumeric keys. That not only upholds the ergonomic advantage of TKL (mouse closer to centre) but could also gives the left hand more to do which I believe would prevent RSI a bit.

Techno Trousers · « **Reply #23 on:** Sat, 20 January 2018, 17:38:45 »

Quote from: davkol on Sat, 20 January 2018, 16:52:05

The perfect solution, if you ask me, well, that would be the embedded tenkey in Kinesis Advantage or maaaybe TypeMatrix.

Show Image

The IBM SSK and Realforce 87U have this. As someone who doesn't use the number pad it's mildly annoying when your computer defaults to numlock on, and you have to perform an action to disable the secondary numpad each time you reboot.

davkol · « **Reply #24 on:** Sun, 21 January 2018, 06:07:38 »

Quote from: Techno Trousers on Sat, 20 January 2018, 17:38:45

Quote from: davkol on Sat, 20 January 2018, 16:52:05
The perfect solution, if you ask me, well, that would be the embedded tenkey in Kinesis Advantage or maaaybe TypeMatrix.

Show Image

The IBM SSK and Realforce 87U have this. As someone who doesn't use the number pad it's mildly annoying when your computer defaults to numlock on, and you have to perform an action to disable the secondary numpad each time you reboot.

These have staggered rows and lack thumb clusters. ;_;

i.e., 0 is in a different (and worse) spot, among other issues.

Polymer · « **Reply #25 on:** Sun, 21 January 2018, 08:42:18 »

Same type of layout (numpad wise) as the TK at that point...

But that's just desperation for a numberpad anyways..I'm not sure anyone really uses it.

The only time I've used that on my RF is when I needed alt characters...

I don't consider any of the old old school keyboards to have any sort of standard. At that time it was all different and all over the place..

In any case, the TK is a crutch layout..for people that somehow think they'll really need a numberpad..but when they realize they can't use it as they use the current one (some people use that than the normal number row for everything) because how inconvenient it is, start realizing it only has a very narrow usage window...

At which point you either go to a standard layout via TKL or one of the more exotic layouts that save space but give you all of the functionality...1800 for example..

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Author Topic: TKL and Quickfire TK form factor (Read 4981 times)